Ok, I'll get to the point. I haven't been on these boards in a long time, yet this is the only place that I can open up and get this out. It's bothering the hell out of me, and I don't another place to say this.

All of my friends are gung-ho for God. All of them. My family is equally gung-ho. I, on the other hand, am not... at all. Thats the problem. I can't bring myself to tell anyone this, and I'm afraid that if I do things will take a turn for the worse. This is the only place that I can let people know this without being afraid of persecution.

I don't understand it. None of it makes sense to me. I support the Big Bang, evolution... and any other scientific theory that contradicts the Bible. That makes alot of sense when compared to Creationism.

I had a girl break up with me because I wasn't Presbyterian. I couldn't bring myself to tell her, because I knew it would have been over a lot sooner then it was. I liked her, too much I'm afraid.

I don't expect sympathy or anything. The fact that you read this and know is good enough.

Christians persecuting atheists. Never.

This is easy.

Just pretend you are christian. It is not that hard. When amongst your family and friends, be the biggest christian you can possibly be. Pretend like you are devoting your life to the word, and immerse yourself in their religious activities as if you believe in all of it. Win a grammy for your amazing portrayal.

Ok, I'll get to the point. I haven't been on these boards in a long time, yet this is the only place that I can open up and get this out. It's bothering the hell out of me, and I don't another place to say this.

All of my friends are gung-ho for God. All of them. My family is equally gung-ho. I, on the other hand, am not... at all. Thats the problem. I can't bring myself to tell anyone this, and I'm afraid that if I do things will take a turn for the worse. This is the only place that I can let people know this without being afraid of persecution.

I don't understand it. None of it makes sense to me. I support the Big Bang, evolution... and any other scientific theory that contradicts the Bible. That makes alot of sense when compared to Creationism.

I had a girl break up with me because I wasn't Presbyterian. I couldn't bring myself to tell her, because I knew it would have been over a lot sooner then it was. I liked her, too much I'm afraid.

I don't expect sympathy or anything. The fact that you read this and know is good enough.
Hi Gondolin

i hope you are well and thank you for posting.

first things first i thought only muslims were capable of this attitude!!!

Only joking

So basically you have to choices

lie and say yep i am a christian and everything will be ok but you will be un happy in your self. or tell the truth and have loads of family greif.


Do you beleive in God still? As this may make things easier to justify to yourself.. eg you could say that it was God's will which created the big bang and thuis craeted the uinvierse etc..

I dont know but you will eventually have to tell the truth, it will be hard but they may understand espically if you dont become critical of their ways.

Its always a tuff one these sort of things.

##########

take care
zak

MOVE! that is my suggestion. move to a new town, not so religious, as soon as you get a chance. trying to act like you love god 24/7 will make you nuts, but if you only have to do it on weekends and holidays, you will be ok.

you sound like you just need some breathing room, so once you get farther away, where your non-christionism is ok to express, the pressure will be off and you will feel a lot better.

I haven't been on these boards in a long time, yet this is the only place that I can open up and get this out. It's bothering the hell out of me, and I don't another place to say this.

If that's really true, my friend, then you got more damn problems than your feelings about religion! Just think of that ....this lousy Internet forum is the ONLY place where you can tell anyone about your problems????

Ooooh, ya' gots problems, alright, but it ain't got nothin' to do with religious beliefs!

Baron Max

If that's really true, my friend, then you got more damn problems than your feelings about religion! Just think of that ....this lousy Internet forum is the ONLY place where you can tell anyone about your problems????

Ooooh, ya' gots problems, alright, but it ain't got nothin' to do with religious beliefs!

Baron Max

He can't tell anyone because that's how religious his town is. I'd say that's a pretty fucking big religious problem.

He can't tell anyone because that's how religious his town is. I'd say that's a pretty fucking big religious problem.

I'd say, with some certainty, that there ain't no such town in the whole fuckin' world ...and that might even include some of the most extreme Muslim communities!

Are you just trying to make excuses for his strange behavior, Roman?

Baron Max

I'd say, with some certainty, that there ain't no such town in the whole fuckin' world ...and that might even include some of the most extreme Muslim communities!

Are you just trying to make excuses for his strange behavior, Roman?

Baron Max

Strange behavior?
It's really not that strange anymore. The world's changing.
And who are you to say that he knows someone he can talk to?

Besides, it sounds like he has to get this off his chest without facing any sort of serious consequence or taking risks. It's a very normal thing to do.

Strange behavior?
It's really not that strange anymore. The world's changing.
And who are you to say that he knows someone he can talk to?

Besides, it sounds like he has to get this off his chest without facing any sort of serious consequence or taking risks. It's a very normal thing to do.
exactly roman. ....

you are completely right. all we can do is give Godalin our opinions and thoughts to his probelm and with the baron coming out with such heartless shit (in my opinion) does not give Godalin much help.. probably just depresses the porr chap even further...

perhaps baron you could come out with something more constructive or are you going to put godalin off posting his thoughts here as well.

##########
zak

Wow... that really sucks, Gondolin. I don't really know what it's like to be judged by my beliefs. I'm really lucky in that sense. There's only one person in my family who's a firm believer in God--my dad. The others are either spiritual (my mom) or agnostic or atheist. Religion rarely becomes a subject in the household. It doesn't play much of a role in our household. Therefore, any differences in beliefs rarely become a problem.

It sounds like that's not the case for you, Gondolin. You can always fake believing, which sucks. But I'm sure you wouldn't be the first to do it. Of course it sucks to suppress your thoughts and feelings to make yourself fit in. Would your family disown you if you pronounced your agnosticism or atheism? How serious is it?

How severe would they censure you? If it's just something, like they may give you a weird look, but still accept you, I'd say, go for it--let them know what you think. Tell him. But if the consequences are more severe and you want to avoid them at all costs, then just fake belief. If you need to talk to people about your own beliefs, Sciforums is always here. ;)

Moving may be the only thing to do, especially if you don't know anyone you can talk to about this.

It sounds like professing atheism in this town would be like being openly gay. I doubt there's any way you could escape persecution if you didn't hide it. However -- I know it's much easier to watch from a distance and say this -- were I in your shoes, I would at least feel that honesty is the best policy. Maybe that's just my defiant streak talking, though.

Religion is primarily a worldview; it's something that strengthens the bonds between people in a group and keeps outsiders on the outside. Whatever a religion teaches, whatever its philosophical tenets are, is usually useless next to the label of that religion's name. If you don't at least say you're on the team, then in most cases you'll look like an opponent regardless of anything else. It's xenophobia.

However, at least your family needs to be able to accept you for who you are. They should know the truth about what you believe. Being a badass and forcing it down their throats will probably only provoke a hostile reaction, but you don't strike me as the type who would want to do that anyway. Be kind, reasonable, respectful, and understanding. Ask the same of your kin. If you are not interested in being converted back, let them know. If they express worry about the fate of your soul, tell them you need to find your own way. A family doesn't need a common religion to stay together; a family that realizes that will have other, stronger bonds.

Your town, on the other hand, sounds like it does need a common religion to stay together. I would think about leaving if I was you.

I have a great family and wonderful friends. I'm just afraid my telling them will ruin things. It's not like I'm a bad person declaring atheism so I can party hardy. I'm a good guy, I don't drink, smoke, lie, and corouse with loose women.

I've had no problem playing the good christian. Every weekend when I do come home from school, I go to church and all that fancy stuff.

I just don't know how they'll take it.

Hi gondolin...

do it then man you... you will only regret it if you did not... they may suprise you and listen to your feeling.. what i would advise though is not to be opnely opposed to their views... just say you dotn understand it sio you are trying to find new knowledge or something like that

anyway some good guys drink smoke and corouse with girls!!??1

####
take care
zak

What I'm trying to say is that I don't use atheism as an excuse to do things a christian wouldn't normally do. I don't know if they would see that.

I don't know if they would see how you could be an atheist if you otherwise act like a good Christian. Your close friends and family can in all likelihood cope, with a good dose of patience.

Gondolin,
How old are you? I suspect that eventually you will move to more cosmopolitan surroundings.

I suspect that eventually you will move to more cosmopolitan surroundings.

You mean places where he can see homeless beggars and drug addicts right on the streets? Where he can witness violent crime several times a day, practically right in front of his eyes? Where he can shop in stores even as they're being robbed by armed, dangerous scumbags? ...etc., etc.?

Baron Max

...or maybe just a suburb or a town somewhere...

Gondolin,
How old are you? I suspect that eventually you will move to more cosmopolitan surroundings.

I'm 20.

You mean places where he can see homeless beggars and drug addicts right on the streets? Where he can witness violent crime several times a day, practically right in front of his eyes? Where he can shop in stores even as they're being robbed by armed, dangerous scumbags? ...etc., etc.?

Baron Max
You mean where people actually gather in a community rather than hide out in their religious enclaves watching Fox news, shaking in fear and voting Republican lest the queers get married? ....yeah.

You're so funny, Baron.

Gondo: Have you always been irreligious? From the way you describe your family and your town, I would assume that you were "raised" in the church. Most people adopt their parents' religion at first and struggle with the cognitive dissonance as they grow up.

If you've felt yourself rejecting such an important part of your family's culture ever more strongly for years and concealed it from them, you've got a big disconnect there. They don't know the person you really are, they're falling for a phony persona you've created for their benefit, to "spare" them the pain of the truth and to "spare" yourself the pain of the confrontation. It's common in our culture to become alienated from our elders during adolescence, but the payback is that we have to find some way to heal that rift in young adulthood or we end up being poor sad grownups with no roots. I never managed to do that with my parents and it was a damn shame. And it had nothing to do with religion, I was raised as an "atheist" and didn't even know what religion and atheism were until I went off to school.

Everyone's problem with his family is unique, but still yours falls into the universal category that you're alienated from them because of a really fundamental disharmony in your basic characters. I can't possibly tell you how to resove this--or even whether you're one of the majority of people who can and should resolve it rather than a one-percenter like me who perhaps is better off the way I am despite the forever unhealed wound. But maybe I can at least clarify it for you. This is what you are facing. If you can't face it you're going to have to work very hard and make some very painful choices to keep it from overwhelming your entire life.

As for women, like the other folks I wonder where you live because there are lots of un-religious young women out there, just oodles and oodles of them. If you live in Amish Country or the backwoods of Mississippi or a barrio, well then like the majority of young people you will one day decide to walk away and join the mainstream. If it's just small-town America, there are girls there who go to church but it's more of a social thing than philosophical. If you don't make religion the main topic of conversation every time you see them but still are honest and make it succinctly clear that you choose not to be part of the religious community, it should not be an insurmountable obstacle to a relationship. Lots of people count themselves as religious when asked, and go to church functions because that's where all the people are, but their religion is still not necessarily a dominant part of their lives. More of a tradition than a passion.

Try internet dating. Sure it has its drawbacks but at least the girls who appreciate your iconoclasm will come to you on the first try

If you feel that you just can't do these things, then regardless of where you live your environment is stifling you. Perhaps it really is too small, or maybe you just don't have the assertiveness and confidence to break out of it. Whatever, it might be time for you to strike out on your own.

There's no magic answer for you. You have to take the intiative and do something. It will probably hurt, both you and your loved ones. The choice is which kind of pain you would rather endure. It's all up to you.

I think you should come out of the closet as an atheist or agnostic, otherwise you lose your self-respect. Be brave, this isn't the middle ages, you are hardly alone.

I think you should come out of the closet as an atheist or agnostic, otherwise you lose your self-respect. Be brave, this isn't the middle ages, you are hardly alone.

I don't think its a question of bravery, we don't know how conservative his community is. It may be easier on him and his family if he moves away for a while first.

It can't be that bad, where do you live, Gondolin?

It can't be that bad, where do you live, Gondolin?

I have an atheist friend who is also gay.

The stories I hear are not pretty.

And they don't even know about the gay bit yet.

You mean where people actually gather in a community...

Yeah, in a community ...with other humans who are greedy, selfish, lying, gluttonous, mean, nasty, violent,........and all of those traits.

In my view, humans have been nothing but a disaster for not only themselves, but for the entire planet as well. And it seems to me that anyone who defends them is pretty damned low ...like a snake in the grass or in a rut in the road. No animal on Earth has ever caused so much trouble and problems for so many, for so long.

Yeah, Spider, I mean those people.

Baron Max

I have an atheist friend who is also gay. The stories I hear are not pretty.

We like 'em down here in Texas ....they make great targets! :)

Baron Max

So, Baron, do you catch the blind cavefish by feel, or do you have to go out at night to hunt?

So, Baron, do you catch the blind cavefish by feel, or do you have to go out at night to hunt?

I just blast away blindly with the .44 Magnum and the shock usually kills or stuns enough of the cavefish for a good meal.

But I don't have any fuckin' humans around to fuck it all up for me!

Baron Max

You are a human. You should get rid of yourself; you're probably a bother.

You are a human. You should get rid of yourself; you're probably a bother.

As you might well know, getting rid of just one human won't change a fuckin' thing .....oops, maybe you're not smart enough to grasp that yet ...sorry.

Baron Max

As you might well know, getting rid of just one human won't change a fuckin' thing .....oops, maybe you're not smart enough to grasp that yet ...sorry.

Baron Max
On an individual level it can. And if you get rid of yourself, I promise you won't be bothered by anyone anymore, certainly no more vile city folk.

I'm 20.


Seriously, who gives a **** what you believe? I mean it is nobodys business and you seem too willing to hang a label on yourself and the people here are more than willing to help you do just that.

Do what you think is right in your heart and learn how to play the game, just so you dont look like an outcast, an elitist or just someone out to make a point.

The main thing is to be open minded, and take comfort in knowing the atheists may be wrong, the jews may be wong, the christias may be wrong...etc.

and remember- Jesus love ya :)

It can't be that bad, where do you live, Gondolin?

I go to the University of Alabama. My home is about 75 mi north of here.

If you've felt yourself rejecting such an important part of your family's culture ever more strongly for years and concealed it from them, you've got a big disconnect there. They don't know the person you really are, they're falling for a phony persona you've created for their benefit, to "spare" them the pain of the truth and to "spare" yourself the pain of the confrontation. It's common in our culture to become alienated from our elders during adolescence, but the payback is that we have to find some way to heal that rift in young adulthood or we end up being poor sad grownups with no roots. I never managed to do that with my parents and it was a damn shame. And it had nothing to do with religion, I was raised as an "atheist" and didn't even know what religion and atheism were until I went off to school.

I was raised in the church, and have been rejecting it for quite some time. It's not that my grandparents (who I live with) don't get who I am. We're very close, but they think I'm a religious person, and I'm not. Thats where all of this falls down.

Like all things Christian they take what is real and proven, twist it around, and then create a fantasy that is insulting to the very fabric of our natures. God is nonsense, limited thinking gives rise to limited intellect, hence your situation with this woman. You can have the hottest girl in the world and if she's a dimwit stupid retard that believes in creationism then it would be best to shoot her or dump her.

Eventually religions will all be erased from history, replaced instead with cold hard science.

Eventually religions will all be erased from history, replaced instead with cold hard science.

Yeah, and that's just what humans need ....something warm, fuzzy and comforting replaced by something cold and hard! That's gonna' make us happier????

Baron Max

Oh, Alabama. God help you.

God help you.

God helps those who help themselves ...and apparently also those who carry big .44 Magnums! :)

Baron Max

Oh, Alabama. God help you.

I agree. Alabama isn't exactly the state for an atheist/agnostic.

I agree. Alabama isn't exactly the state for an atheist/agnostic.

My friend is from the outskirts of Birmingham.

Really? My home away from college is about 20 mi. east of Bham.

Really? My home away from college is about 20 mi. east of Bham.

If your real name is Kevin, this is gonna be really creepy.

My name is Michael, but you were close.

It's not that my grandparents (who I live with) don't get who I am. We're very close, but they think I'm a religious person, and I'm not.Duh?

Yea... kind of redundant... I know. It's hard to explain.

Yeah, and that's just what humans need ....something warm, fuzzy and comforting replaced by something cold and hard! That's gonna' make us happier????

Baron Max
Cold, hard freebase cocaine will make us very happy. So will free love and "performance-enhancing" drugs. Also strict gun control.

It's not that my grandparents (who I live with) don't get who I am. We're very close, but they think I'm a religious person, and I'm not.Duh?Yea... kind of redundant... I know. It's hard to explain.I admit that the word "duh" is a bit imprecise for a discussion on a scientific forum and is open to misinterpretation. :) But I hoped you would catch my point and see the contradiction in the edited-down version of your own post.

You say that you are "very close" to your grandparents. Then you say that they not only don't know that you're not religious, but they assume that you are religious.

These people are not close to you. They cannot be "close" to someone, much less "very close," and be ignorant of something this important to them.

Even if you have not been flaunting this fact about yourself... geeze dude this is your family, the people who have assumed the responsibility of guiding your maturation, the ones who are required by their position as parent figures in your life to know everything important about you, even things you don't know about yourself.

You may not walk around the house taking down pictures of Jesus, but you broadcast clues unconsciously which your family, the adults, are obligated to notice if they are doing their job. The same way they can tell that you're coming down with a cold even though you still feel fine. The same way they can tell that you're falling in love with a girl whose name you don't know yet.

Either they are insensitive dolts who can't believe that anyone would leave the fold of their church--and this does happen far too often--or you have put considerable effort into creating the illusion that you are still in that fold. Or a little of both, which is the most likely explanation.

This is how kids come home to introduce their gay life partner at age 30 and it tears the family apart. In many cases the family members are loving and resilient enough to have weathered the revelation fifteen years earlier. What shakes them is to learn that their child has been lying to them for half of his life, that he was willing to deceive them about something so important, and that he was so skillful at it that they didn't catch on. Suddenly they have to wonder whether they really know him at all. What other basic elements of the character of this stranger sitting in their living room have been concealed from them?

Sure, these aren't your parents, they're your grandparents. Perhaps they'll be dead in fifteen years and you can maintain the lie. I hope not because they're probably not much older than me.

My question is: Why do you want to? You are shutting these people out of your life. Apparently you've lost your parents, either physically or at least emotionally. Now you're losing the people who have taken their place.

I should not be so hard on you. My parents died after an estrangement of more than forty years. As I became an adult in my own right, a well-educated man with a wife and a responsible job who took his place in the community and eventually became this wise, benevolent guy who regales you all with advice, I should have been able to overcome decades of resentment and take the initiative to heal the family.

Yet I could not, or at least I chose not to. My wife and I still argue about it. Some days she agrees with my choice or at least reassures me that I could have not have changed things, other days not. Some days I think I could have changed things, other days I'm just grateful for the happy years we did have.

So I understand.

Perhaps all I can do is give you a glimpse into a time machine and show you what your own life may be like forty years from now--probably much sooner--when it's too late to change it.

Love is all about risk. If you love these people, consider taking the risk of telling them the truth. They may surprise you.