Hi,
if some one can help my with the term used for this ability I would appreciate it.
It is simply the ability of our minds to "point" our awareness to what ever part of the body we choose to point to.

For example pointing to my right toe, specifically the tip of it. Or pointing to my index finger on my right hand prior to moving it.

I am sure this is a really easy question for someone who knows anything about neurology.

I am researching how this ability applies to memories and imagination and the application of energy.

Please help if you can. A link would be great.

Thanks in advance

Not sure of the term. Are usure a psychologist wouldn't know more about this than a neurologist?!

Anyway some info:

We actually have 2 types of awareness: subconscious and conscious. When we hurt ourselves doing something it is the subconscious awareness of our body that alerts our conscious awareness to then notice it. When we voluntariyl "point", as u say, our awareness to a body part, we invite our conscious awareness to the part for some othe (conscious) reason.

When a person suffers paralysis such as quadraplegia....they are unable to sense the body parts effected therefore they are unable to move that part.....I am not sure I got that right.....but the point is if you can't point to it properly you can't move it I guess.

Numbness could also show an inability to be aware of the part in the normal way.

perception , awareness, and energy are intrinsically connected. And I feeel that how that energy is utilised is in a lot of ways determined by our conscouis will ( pointing) based on that awareness and the quality of.

Awareness does require the senses. And th senses require a working nervous system. This is missing in your above case so the only awareness one caould have of the body part is just by looking at it. Thats a way of focussing your awareness on it!

I don't understand what u mean by energy in your last post. U never explained that

Uh, I believe it's called "focus", and last time I checked it's not a special ability or anything.

I don't understand what u mean by energy in your last post. U never explained that

John,
To move a muscle one must be aware of it but also this awareness allows you to control the amount of energy needed to do the task you want.

To run for example you will your muscles to move in a certain way this requires awareness and also the ability to instruct energy in a way to achieve the movement you want.

Of course this is all co-ordinated after many years of learning etc. But awareness is essential plus the delivery of energy to do the job required.

if you can't deliver the energy you can't move the muscles if you are not aware of the muscle you can't deliver the energy and so on.

I hope that makes more sense

Alpha,
Surely there is some fancy latin medical term for this paticular will over body function.....

Uh, I believe it's called "focus",

Or "conscious awareness".

well there is usually a temporary reserve of ATP (I think) whichthe body drws on for its most immediate tasks. Through learning, it does seem to draw on the optimal ATP supply for the task at hand.

well there is usually a temporary reserve of ATP (I think) whichthe body drws on for its most immediate tasks. Through learning, it does seem to draw on the optimal ATP supply for the task at hand.
and in most cases this is subject to the will of the person based on his awareness of that muscle need.

another example would be a person about to lift weights in a gymn.

he has to lift say 100 kgs and he by force of will applies energy based on his awareness.

When a person suffers paralysis such as quadraplegia....they are unable to sense the body parts effected therefore they are unable to move that part.....I am not sure I got that right.....but the point is if you can't point to it properly you can't move it I guess.

Yes, you don't have that right. When a person suffers paralysis, the nerve impulses do not reach the muscles. This is why they can't move it. It has nothing to do with sensing the part. There is a term for this "body-sense". It is called proprioception. It utilizes nerve signals from joints, tendons, and muscles to tell us where our bodies are and what they are doing. If for some reason these nerve signals are blocked (or if the part of the brain that handles them is damaged), then we become dispossessed. Our body is not ours. We are disembodied. This condition does not inspire paralysis. In fact, it's quite the opposite. The hands and arms flutter about. They wander unless you keep an eye on them. I posted this in another thread, but I'll repeat it in here. I find this extremely fascinating.

It has been suggested that "proprioception", the ability to know where parts of the body are without visual confirmation, is located in the left parietal hemisphere. Patients with this area of damage will generally point to the incorrect part of the body when asked to locate another specific part:

"She could scarcely even sit up - her body 'gave way'. Her face was oddly expressionless and slack, her jaw fell open, even her vocal posture was gone.
"Something awful's happened ," she mouthed, in a ghostly flat voice. "I can't feel my body. I feel weird - disembodied."

This was an amazing thing to hear, confounded, confounding. "Disembodied" - was she crazy? But what of her physical state then? The collapse of tone and muscle posture, from top to toe; the wandering of her hands, which she seemed unaware of; the flailing and overshooting, as if she were receiving no information from the periphery, as if the control loops for tone and movement had catastrophically broken down…

…"What I must do then," she said slowly, "is use vision, use my eyes, in every situation where I used - what do you call it? - proprioception before. I've already noticed," she added, musingly, "that I may 'lose' my arms. I think they're in one place, and I find that they're in another. This "proprioception" is like the eyes of the body, the way the body sees itself. And if it goes, as it's gone with me, it's like the body's blind. My body can't "see" itself if it's lost it's eyes, right? So, I have to watch it - be it's eyes. Right?"

Oliver Sacks - The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat. P45-46.
http://www.23nlpeople.com/sensory_motor_cortex.htm

She had to substitute her eyes for her body's sense. She eventually got quite good at it. The mind is able to adapt quite well, given time.

Just what I was saying but more elegantly :)

thanks for that Invert Nexus I think you have given me the term I was looking for.....proprioception and a handy link .......thanks for that.......and thanks John and Alpha

Just a note,
I have done a bit of searching and yes propriorception is in fact a big part of the puzzle I am working through.

It is interesting to note that the brain structures for this faculty are close in proximity and often have "overflow" to and from our sexual centres.
The thinking
This is part of the study of Chakra esoterics ( eastern concepts of energy )

The sexual centres (in particular the sacral chakra) are primary in the energy functions of the body and the link between balance, awareness, and energy then onto movement ( including the movement of the eyes - focus inc.)and thought including memory.

It could be futher extrapulated that the act of thinking is also heavilly influence by our proprioception and if suffering a loss of this faculty the ability to think and remember and even imagine could also be impaired and not just "major" muscle co-ordination as given by Invert Nexus's example....

further it could be a major cause for mental health issues

Alpha,
Surely there is some fancy latin medical term for this paticular will over body function....."It is simply the ability of our minds to 'point' our awareness to what ever part of the body we choose to point to."

Sounded like you're just shifting your focus/wareness from one area to another. No indication why you would consider that an ability, and why would there be some special term for it.
Or "conscious awareness".One's conscious awareness of a specific thing is focus.

The Man Who Mistook His Wife For a Hat.

Love that book. Lots of really bizarre neurological afflictions. Definitely a must read for fans of all that's kooky in ths head.

Alpha,
This ability to point your awareness, consciousness or even you eyes to a target of interest is fundamnetal to what and who you are.
it is your expression of your freewill. It is the very root of your individuality.
If this system of priorproception and neurology is abnormal your freewill to move as you want and to think as you want are greatly diminished.

You would not be able to type your posts or frame a coherant thought.

You would not be able to find a memory or choose what to look at.

Your ability to focus your hearing on a sound would dissappear and you would be unable to focus on the touch of a loving hand nor feel the warmth in you groin or heart.

So yes you are right it is no significant ability in our minds because it is our minds expression. It is our most fundamental ability but also it is an ability we most take for granted. ( and so we should )

"I think that the brain is the most fascinating organ in the human body. Then again, look at what's telling me that."
~Emo Phillips

Vert:
Yes, you don't have that right. When a person suffers paralysis, the nerve impulses do not reach the muscles. This is why they can't move it. It has nothing to do with sensing the part. There is a term for this "body-sense". It is called proprioception. It utilizes nerve signals from joints, tendons, and muscles to tell us where our bodies are and what they are doing. If for some reason these nerve signals are blocked (or if the part of the brain that handles them is damaged), then we become dispossessed. Our body is not ours. We are disembodied. This condition does not inspire paralysis. In fact, it's quite the opposite. The hands and arms flutter about. They wander unless you keep an eye on them. I posted this in another thread, but I'll repeat it in here. I find this extremely fascinating.

That's right- it answers Quantum Q's thread succinctly and alas, I'm too late.


Propioception- a spatial ability of our pareital lobes. What else can I add to this? Nothing, and what you've said here is certainly not what a little boy here "was trying to say but more elegentally".
I'm sure we can both sniff out a charlatty dilentante, yes?

Akinetic mutism, or in other words a vigilant coma is another fascinating condition in which free will comes in question. One is literally trapped within one's body, able to pyschologically move one's limbs around but nothing happens. This is fascinating in that the hold one feels on one's body and Soul is nothing in the face of dissociative pathologies such as these.
Turrets- another form of self-divorce.

In a nutshell before rambling: proprioception. From the Latin of propio, meaning "self" or "own" (I think, as in " mi propria alma"- my own soul) and ception, the awareness of that.

so gendanken would yo agree with my previous statements about this fundamental ability being intrinsically our most important?

QQ,

I don't think so. Take the example of the women from Sacks' book. She lost her proprioception, she lost her body. But she didn't lose herself. She was still able to function. She did need to concentrate more on the base functions of her body. Things which she used to be able to do with her eyes closed, but her thinking didn't change.

She didn't suffer brain damage though. Her loss of proprioception was caused by a bacterial infection. I just so happen to have the book right here. I'll quote the part that details how she got this way. And, yes, I'd recommend that anyone interested in this sort of thing read this book. It is full of extremely interesting case studies. It is more than clinical, it gets into the humans who are suffering due to their ailments. Sacks is also the guy behind Awakenings. For any interested.

The picture revealed by spinal tap was one of an acute polyneuritis, but a polyneuritis of a most exceptional type: not like Guillain-Barre syndrome, with its overwhelming motor involvement, but a purely (or almost purely) sensory neuritis, affecting the sensory roots of spinal and cranial nerves throughout the neuraxis.*

*Such sensory polyneuropathies occur, but are rare. What was unique in Christina's case, to the best of our knowledge at the time (this was in 1977), was the extraordinary selectivity displayed, so that proprioceptive fibres, and these only, bore the brunt of the damage.

Hmm. The first time I had read this to mean the damage was outside the brain. But perhaps I was wrong. It didn't damage the parietal per se. But the neuraxis. The proprioceptive fibers. Not sure where these are exactly.

Here's another bit:

The sense of the body, I told her, is given by three things: vision, balance organs (the vestibular system), and proprioception -- which she'd lost. Normally all of these worked together. If one failed, the others could compensate, or substitute -- to a degree. In particular, I told of my patient Mr. MacGregor, who, unable to employ his balance organs, used his eyes instead. And of patients with neurosyphilis, tabes dorsalis, who had similar symptoms, but confined to the legs -- and how they too had to compensate by use of their eyes. And how, if one asked such a patient to move his legs, he was apt to say: 'Sure, Doc, as soon as I find them.'

Interesting stuff, no?

There's more. People who suffer strokes in the right parietal hemisphere of the brain, lose the left half of their bodies. Not only lose them, but deny that they exist. They will wake up in the middle of the night and grow disgusted at the practical joker who keeps putting this cadavers leg in bed with them and throw the leg out of bed. And, of course, they follow right after. Their was another case detailed where the man actually thought the left half of his body was some woman's body. And he would fondle it from time to time. The mind is a terribly strange and wondrous organ.

QQ:
so gendanken would yo agree with my previous statements about this fundamental ability being intrinsically our most important
Philosophically.
This is where you are taking it.
The use of it as a culmination of engery and awareness in this thing we call Will.
Am I mistaken?

Could certaily see why one would think so. Biologically, however, Will becomes a plaything.

the little research that I have done since coming to know the term I have found that all referrences to sensing movement Kinetiesia etc and propriorception are fundamental. to evrything else.

Invert you mention compensation for systemic failure. And this is a wonderous thing.

How the mind can shift it's abilities to compensate for a loss as part of the survival function no doubt.

Personally I have been suffering a form of propriorception for teh last 12 years but failed to understand what it was or why I existed as I did.

The symptoms are subtle and I know that they effect the thought processes and memory functions as well from experience.

The ability to point and control the energy flows is essential to any form of good health.

If yo look at all those examples in your book and consider how important propriorception is in conjunction with other systems you can see that in it's mirad forms of diminishment the person has lost either in a small way or in a rather profound way their ability to articulate their will.

from a slight imbalance ( falling all the time ) to quadraplegia and coma, mind/body disembodiment etc etc.....so with all these extreme potentials we have a rather important conscious and subconscious function. To do what we want.

Philosophically.
This is where you are taking it.
The use of it as a culmination of engery and awareness in this thing we call Will.
Am I mistaken?

No you are correct but I am attempting to bring the metaphysical into the realms of the physical.

Could certaily see why one would think so. Biologically, however, Will becomes a plaything.

be it as it may I feel that this culminant ability is our ability to express our selves with our will.

For example with out proper function the ability to speak or communicate at a conscious level is lost.

( this I do know of because it was part of my symptomology)

To loose the ability to co-ordinate your actions based on your awareness is the loss of physical and psychological integrity.
In fact a loss of awareness conscious or unconscious is a loss of life in it's full context.

Just a little story to explain my interest.

When I was a teenager aged 14 I experienced what I have just now come to learn was a small stroke. At the time I mentioned my sever head pain to my mother but it was dissregarded as I seemed to be ok.

At the time for me the pain meant to me that I was going to die and even said good by.

Since then I have functioned quite normally but at all times something was not quite right.....but I couldn't figure it out.

Proprioception was unstable, and whilst I co-ordinated well it took a greater degree of effort than what would be considered normal.

Over time the conditioned deteriorated and I noticed that my thinking and ability to remember was slipping....my speach started to slur and concentration took enourmous effort...12 years ago I decided to attempt certain excersises and have since recovered my abilities some what. Although greater effort is needed I function quite well.

So I know how important this culminant ability is.

Of course because the stroke was not treated at the time the doctors had no idea what to make of it. And becasue I tended to lift my effort when in company the symptoms were unalbe to be tested. The symptoms manifesting mainly when I was alone and relaxed....so therfore I could not relax.

And because the part of the brain has scared over it can not be found with xrays or MRI scans.

So for 12 years I have been on a fulltime search for understanding....that has taken me to psychiatric institutions to medical text.and philosophies from around the world.

And now finally I have a word for my dilemma......as has been mentioned propriorception has been implicated in the notion of a soul, emotions and feelings. 12 years ago I could not recognise Love. And this is what prompted the urgency of my search, because i knew I was dying...........

Please excuse me for this indulgence

Interesting. I'm working up a reply to your earlier posts, but can't help but to chime in with this little question first. Was it a lateralized effect? Notice that the woman's loss of proprioception over her whole body was not a stroke. It affected nerve fibers and affected both sides of her body. Were your effects limited to one side? With the speech side effects, I would guess a left brain stroke, which would affect your right half of the body. You're a lucky man, QQ. Right brain strokes cause funny effects sometimes, but they can be dealt with rather easily. The left brain strokes destroy people. Wipes them clean sometimes.

It's somewhat strange that the condition would deteriorate over time. What length of time are we dealing with? Usually strokes are a one-shot deal. Are you sure it was a stroke? It might have been some type of poisoning or the like. Or even bacterial infection. The possibilities are endless. The story of the disembodied woman ends by saying that loss of proprioception is rising because of health food fanatics who are poisoning themselves with vitamin b6 (pyridoxine). The good thing about this, is that the condition clears up when they lay off the vitamins.

Your speech slurred. Was there any internal effects? I wonder which part of the language axis was being affected. Wernicke's area in the temporal which processes sound (and also forms words into sounds you hear in your head and are passed on for speech and writing.) Broca's area which deals with expressive speech. The parietal sits in between these two. (well, that's not a proper description. Look at the brain as Europe and Africa. Broca's Area is Spain. It's in the frontal cortex. Wernicke's area is North Africa. They are so close to each other, but the way they are connected is by the fasciculus (longitudinal and arcuate. White matter fiber highways.) More properly, the primary auditory center is Algeria. Wernicke's area would be libya or Egypt. And, the inferior parietal (the angular gyrus) is the holy land. It is here that sight, sound, and sensory data are combined into syntax and cross-associations.

So, if Wernicke's area were damaged, I imagine you would have trouble thinking. If it were broca's area, then you would only have trouble speaking. It's possible that the problem was between the angular gyrus and broca's. Here is the primary sensory and primary motor cortex's.

Christ, this was only going to be a quick interjection. I hope some of this makes sense, QQ. I'd suggest a book for your perusal. The Naked Neuron by Dr. R. Joseph. It's a very good book, IMO. Very informative. I'm sure that Gendanken will have more to add as well. Now that we know what the topic really is, we may come to terms with what questions to ask. I hope you don't start to feel to much like a lab rat. :D

There were only a couple of examples of this particular syndrome in the book. And, I don't believe that either affected the thought processes to a great extent. I know that in the case of Catherine, it affected her speech. She lost her emotive presence. Her voice was as weak and dead as her body. It says that the voice depends on proprioception feedback just as much as the rest of the body. And, she wasn't able to keep an "eye" on her voice, so she had to use her ears instead. Normally, we don't really hear ourselves. We tune ourselves out. (The actual sound of our voice as opposed to the proprioceptive feedback.) She had to change that in order to get her voice back.

I find no reference at all to any loss of thought functions. It does mention a loss of ego. Another quote: (How many quotes until it's plagiarism? Is there some kind of rule?)

For, in some sense, she is 'pithed', disembodied, a sort of wraith. She has lost, with her sense of proprioception, the fundamental organic mooring of identity -- at least of that corporeal identity, or 'body-ego', which Freud sees as the basis of self: "The ego is first and foremost a body-ego.' Some such derpersonalisation or derealisation must always occur, when there are deep disturbances of body perception or body image. Weir Mithcell saw this, and incomparably described it, when he was working with amputees and nerve-damaged patients in the American Civil War -- and in a famous, quasi-fictionalised account, but still the best, phenomenologically most accurate, account we have, said (through the mouth of his physician-patient, George Dedlow):

'I found to my horror that at times I was less conscious of myself, of my own existence, than used to be the case. This sensation was so novel that at first it quite bewildered me. I felt like asking someone constantly if I were really George Dedlow or not; but, I refrained from speaking of my case, and strove more keenly to analyse my feelings. At times the conviction of my want of being myself was overwhelming and most painful. It was, as well as I can describe it, a deficiency in the egoistic sentiment of individuality.'

It speaks of Christina having brief, partial reprieves. When her skin is stimulated. Riding in an open car. The wind on her body. 'It's wonderful,' she says, 'I feel the wind on my arms and face, and then I know, faintly, I have arms and a face. It's not the real thing, but it's something -- it lifts this horrible, dead veil for a while.'


I wonder if his is necessarily relevant to your case though.



I'm thinking that if the problem lay between the angular gyrus and the primary sensory or the primary motor, then perhaps their would be a loss of will. Of sorts. The question is (which has not been answered to my sense of satisfaction) is where does will originate? It surely has to do with language. With the interpreter mechanism. But, where on the language axis? The angular gyrus itself?

I think "focus" is the word, Alpha start a vote who thinks the answer is "focus"?

Excuse me If I ramble a little. This has been a rather emotional moment for me.

The incident happened when I was 14, I am now 45. I have two beautiful children that I couldn't recognise for a while......so this is not very easy for me.

All the symptoms yo have mentioned I have experienced in some form or another at various degrees of intensity. There have been many many experiences that would not have been documented.

The pain that i experienced was felt on the left side of my skull just above the joining of the nape to the skull ( approximately 1 inch above this join)

I have intuitively realised for years now that it is part of our primary will which exists on the right side and approximately the same height.

From what I have deduced...intuitively for men we have two main will centres..the left being female and the right being male. So the left and right sides of the brain have a will each...as you have elluded to in another thread ( nexus)

The will centre as I call it governs where and what we point to with our minds and imagination. Where as the right side does the actual moving.

(this is my intuitive understanding)

The leasion on the left side had one main important effect on me at the age of 14.

My peronality changed incredibly from a light hearted flipant carefree kid to a serious, philosophical teanager who whilst hopeleess at school managed to become quite proficient at music.....( have worked professionally )

This change in personality was noticed by my parents and peers but put down to normal adolescent growth as sometimes these changes can be.

By the time I was 26 I had a business, two children and designed and owned ( in full ) my own 4 bedroom house.

Today I see this episode as a time of over achievment...I knew something was wrong and I wanted to live as best I could with the time I had left ( subconscious compensation)

Stroke does not always follow a particular pattern. And because of it's position it maintained it's effect and whilst scaring it's effect on my proprioception was slowly causing a deterioration to my consciousness.

Eventually I had to surrender myself to this problem as I simply could not continue the way I was.....so life changed at the age of 30 again but this time the search had began. And with this deteriorating condition I have travelled a very difficult yet by the same token interesting journey.

I entered the reals of research into telepathy and various other esoteric studies. I came to realise many truths about our physical and metaphysical existence simply becasue the subliminal nature of our existence became exposed as this condition allowed.

The telepathic center of the brain resides right next to the right side will centre (outgoing) where as on the left side resides the telepathic centre ( in coming)

(Intuitively experienced)

An example of just one experience was I woke up one night in bed and couldn;t move my right leg. When I finally did I realised it was broken below the knee and the pain was incredible......but I also realised it wasn't my leg that was broken. It belonged to someone else and I knew who it belonged to.
Thus after this and similar experiences I realised that empathic responses where possible at this level.

But of course I was ignorant and had limited knowledge of such and also new that this type of experience would be the subject of skepticism. So I just kept on having similar experiences until I controlled this ability. At this time I had virtually no voice, no ability to express my concerns or experiences.

So this "stroke" has offered an oportunity to learn from......the main lesson being how to control my wayward abilities.

And the most wayward ability is this proprioception.
The ability to control what you point to. the direction your focus takes.
Even now I have great difficulty reading as I can't fully control the co-ordnation of imagination to sight to comprehension.

So in a way I am a walking labority trying to figure out how to put humpty dumpty back together again.

and becaue I have difficulty reading i can't study in the normal fashion,,,,so nearly all learning is intuitive through experience. Trial and error.....systematic interpretation and application of a healing technique that ihave come to learn.
My brain adapting and re-routing and re-organising it's ability.

so gendanken would yo agree with my previous statements about this fundamental ability being intrinsically our most important?

I think a lot more important than that is our (also intrinsic) autonomic nervous system.

this prepriorception extends also to the autonmic nervous system in the most part at a very deep subconscious level. The ability to slow and speed the heart, cause hormonal releases that effect strength and other factors are all proprioceptive.

in fact cell to cell is also....metabolic rates and auto immune systems, including the thymus and lympthatic systems.

( my experience)

actually the contraction and dillation of blood vessels is also associated and for this I am taking Glyceryl Trintrate, Nitro G which is normally for angina to try to stabilise this problem I have.

this prepriorception extends also to the autonmic nervous system in the most part at a very deep subconscious level.

But I thought we've established this "focus" as being conscious in origin?!

we have at that.............maybe I should have added the word normally at a very deep subconscious level. However if one is conscious of these things then it is no longer subconscious.

I think "focus" is the word, Alpha start a vote who thinks the answer is "focus"?

Possibly. Proprioception refers to the self-body image. But, I'm not so sure it has to do with a conscious manipulation of it. I don't know if there is a 'specific' name for it. Focus seems as good as any.

Excuse me If I ramble a little. This has been a rather emotional moment for me.

Not at all. Rambling is perfectly acceptable in my book. But, I'm a convicted rambler.

The pain that i experienced was felt on the left side of my skull just above the joining of the nape to the skull ( approximately 1 inch above this join)

Close to the ear? Behind the ear? In front of the ear? Sounds like parietal/occipital. Possible involving some of the temporal. I am unsure of how these superimpose precisely in the skull. I'm used to seeing brains deskulled.

Also, not entirely sure if pain would actually be an indicator of location. The brain doesn't feel pain,

I have intuitively realised for years now that it is part of our primary will which exists on the right side and approximately the same height.

That's quite the intuitive leap. May I ask what led you to this conclusion? I'm not entirely certain what part of the brain you're referring to, but I personally feel that it's likely that the will would be more in the frontal. The inhibition centers. Will being more about suppressing undesired thought and action rather than causing desired thought and action. This is a thought that just occurred to me. I'm surprised I never considered it earlier. Language without this inhibition is a free-flowing nonsense factory. With it, we are able to direct out thoughts along productive lines. I haven't spoken of the frontal lobes inhibition abilities in this thread, have I? Oy, so many brain threads...

From what I have deduced...intuitively for men we have two main will centres..the left being female and the right being male. So the left and right sides of the brain have a will each...as you have elluded to in another thread ( nexus)

Sort of. It's a bit more complicated, but sort of. And, I suppose if you wanted you could call them male and female, but you have them backwards, IMO. The left being male (rational, analytical) and the right being female (emotional, spacially-oriented). I don't necessarily like this genderfication of the hemispheres though. Leads one to a specific way of thinking that I feel is not entirely accurate. And, you're also forgetting the limbic system. There's another will. And also the autonomic system has it's own bit of will. And the body has it's own will, reflex action and the like. We are composed of far more than two wills. But, perhaps we could agree on two thinking wills. Although the 'thinking' of the right is alien to our awareness.

The will centre as I call it governs where and what we point to with our minds and imagination. Where as the right side does the actual moving.

Hmm. Not so sure about this either. Both sides do their own moving. As is evidenced in the split brain studies. When the hemispheres are connected and functioning properly, they communicate to some degree. Things are passed back and forth and this is how you can consciously move your left arm. This movement center is a vertical slice directly behind the frontal lobe. Right behind Broca's expressive speech area (which is immediately adjacent to the movement centers for the face, the mouth.) and Exner's writing area (immediately above Broca's area.) Sandwiched between the primary motor and the parietal is the primary sensory. The secondary sensory is the superior parietal and the angular gyrus is the inferior.

Crap, I'm undoubtably just confusing the shit out of you. I'll try to find a good picture of the brain.

By the way, are you right handed or left handed? Some few lefties actually have their lateralization reversed.

My peronality changed incredibly from a light hearted flipant carefree kid to a serious, philosophical teanager who whilst hopeleess at school managed to become quite proficient at music.....( have worked professionally )

Interesting. This may lead to the temporal. Read this: "Patients who have had trauma (gend: as in seizure or cva's) to the temporal lobes have heightened emotions and see cosmic significance in trivial events.......they tend to be humorless, full of self-importance and to mantain elaborate diaries that record quotidian events in elaborate detail. Some are sticky in converstation, argumentative, pedantic, egocentric and curiously are obsessively preoccupied with philosophical and theological issues."- Ramachandran, p. 180 - Gendy in the Kaballah.

Well, shit, that didn't read quite like I remembered it. Some of the characteristics might apply. QQ, you realize that once Gendanken get's back and realizes the specimen we have in you, you won't be able to shake her. You're lucky you're on the other side of the globe from us. If you lived close by, we might come swooping in with tests and questions. You'd never get any peace. :p

Anyway, the music thing is interesting. Music is actually handled by both sides of the brain rather than just the right. It is mostly in the right, but certain aspects (rhythm and tempo) are handled by the analytical left.

I entered the reals of research into telepathy and various other esoteric studies. I came to realise many truths about our physical and metaphysical existence simply becasue the subliminal nature of our existence became exposed as this condition allowed.

The telepathic center of the brain resides right next to the right side will centre (outgoing) where as on the left side resides the telepathic centre ( in coming)

Perhaps the temporal scarring took time for the religious obsession, manic pattern-finding, to begin in earnest. Pardon me, QQ, but I don't believe in these phenomena. I feel that if they existed, there would be no denying them. They would be proven and utilized in everyday life. As they're not, I feel that they are errors in judgement. The interpreter mechanism at it's finest.

An example of just one experience was I woke up one night in bed and couldn;t move my right leg. When I finally did I realised it was broken below the knee and the pain was incredible......but I also realised it wasn't my leg that was broken. It belonged to someone else and I knew who it belonged to.
Thus after this and similar experiences I realised that empathic responses where possible at this level.

Or perhaps (more likely IMO) you experienced a loss of proprioception. Not only did you lose the proprioception, but you lost even the awareness of it. You didn't know, and you didn't know that you didn't know. This happens when certain areas of the brain are damaged. Areas whose functions are to report damage or nonfunctioning of it's partner. In the absence of direct data from relevant portions of the brain, we confabulate. It wasn't your leg, it must have been someone else's leg. Empathic and telepathic phenomenon. Error.

So I just kept on having similar experiences until I controlled this ability. At this time I had virtually no voice, no ability to express my concerns or experiences.

Could you think? In words that is. There is another thread going on about whether we can think (logically) without words. I tend to believe that words (language of some kind) are integral to the process. Without them we can know, but we can't know we know.

And the most wayward ability is this proprioception.
The ability to control what you point to. the direction your focus takes.

I have attempted to exercise this in my poor attempts at meditation and relaxation techniques. I shift my awareness about my body. Starting with the skin on the top of my head and circling around my body. Working my way down. It's a workout and I am always distracted in the attempt and have to redouble my efforts to maintain the small focus. Do you attempt to focus this ability towards muscle groups? I.e. moving the muscles of your little finger while not moving any other muscle in the hand? That would come in quite handy for a musician, wouldn't it?

Even now I have great difficulty reading as I can't fully control the co-ordnation of imagination to sight to comprehension.

Well, that explains why you haven't heard of proprioception until now. Gendanken and I were discussing this amongst ourselves a bit and were surprised that you hadn't heard of it already. We've been bandying the term about quite a bit lately. It was originally brought up in the Look of Other Eyes thread in which you were taking part. I actually hesitated posting the bit from Sacks in this thread. Thinking that perhaps that quote had inspired your curiousity in this area and wasn't needed. I posted it anyway so that anyone not following the other thread might learn of it. Good thing I did.

I think a lot more important than that is our (also intrinsic) autonomic nervous system.

More important how? To living certainly, but not to our thought processes. And, the cortex has greater control over movement than the ANS. The cerebellum seems to have more to do with balance than conscious muscle movement. I could be wrong. The books I have been reading haven't dealt much with the cerebellum.

In animals such as reptiles, the brain stem and cerebellum dominate. For this reason it is commonly referred to as the "reptilian brain". It has the same type of archaic behavioural programs as snakes and lizards. It is rigid, obsessive, compulsive, ritualistic and paranoid, it is "filled with ancestral memories". It keeps repeating the same behaviours over and over again, never learning from past mistakes ... This brain controls muscles, balance and autonomic functions, such as breathing and heartbeat. This part of the brain is active, even in deep sleep.
http://www.ezls.fb12.uni-siegen.de/mkroedel/paul_maclean.html

this prepriorception extends also to the autonmic nervous system in the most part at a very deep subconscious level. The ability to slow and speed the heart, cause hormonal releases that effect strength and other factors are all proprioceptive.

I think you're carrying proprioception too far. It is a feedback system. Not a control system. It is the homonculous within our minds. It is what our mind's eye can focus on and say "See! I have a body!"

You also mention the members of the limbic system in regards to proprioception. You must remember that the brain is a series of onion peels. A series of structures that are built above, below, and through each other. The limbic system, while it undoubtably lends it share of functioning to the system, is below the neocortex. Makes me wonder... Do reptiles have proprioception? Primitive mammals with nearly no neocortex? Humans are the only animal with an angular gyrus, but other animals do have the primary and secondary sensory centers. Hmm. Interesting thought.


Getting long again. I'll leave you with a quote.

The President of the United States is lying in bed, waving his right hand at his Secretary of State in a gesture of dismissal. The President is alert and seems intelligent. He is talking forcefully, angry at his subordinate, who has suggested that the President is ill and perhaps should delegate some of his duties to others until he recovers.

Indeed, the President's left side seems to be totally paralyzed -from a recent stroke. His left arm lies limp. The President cannot walk because his left leg will not function. However, the President seems blissfully unaware of this disorder, steadfastly denying that there is anything wrong with him. It is, of course, this denial of his illness that has particularly upset the President's personal and official families. They have tried to reason with him, pointing out to him that his left arm is lying there, paralyzed. But he denies that it is his left arm. Indeed, he is somewhat puzzled about what a strange arm and leg are doing in his bed with him.
http://williamcalvin.com/Bk1/bk1ch7.htm

Some of what is said on this page (the whole book is actually online) seems... wrong to me. Strange effects for temporal lesions. Effects I wouldn't think would occur to damage in the areas they're mentioning, but Calvin is an accredited neurologist. Perhaps I misunderstood some things. After I read more in the real world, I'm going back to this site to give it a more thorough working over.

Just a quick post for now will post more later

Proprioception by definition

Care of

http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/proprioception

Definition: [n] the ability to sense the position and location and orientation and movement of the body and its parts

See Also: equilibrium, interoception, kinaesthesia, kinaesthesis, kinanesthesia, kinesthesia, kinesthesis, kinesthetics, labyrinthine sense, muscle sense, sense of balance, sense of equilibrium, sense of movement, somaesthesia, somaesthesis, somatatesthesis, somatesthesia, somatic sense, somatic sensory system, somatosensory system, somesthesia, somesthesis, vestibular sense

More important how? To living certainly, but not to our thought processes. And, the cortex has greater control over movement than the ANS. The cerebellum seems to have more to do with balance than conscious muscle movement. I could be wrong. The books I have been reading haven't dealt much with the cerebellum.

I can't remember. It was a reply to QQ's last post on the previous page if u wanna have a look :) I think it was more important for life generally.

My research last night lead me to a rather ineresting coincedence or irony or serendipity...what ever....

A Doctor Rhomberg had developed a test for Propriorception ( PPC )
the link is
http://www.physioworks.com.au/rhomberg.htm

Now the interesting bit is that about 8 years ago I started testing my self using just this method but thought I was testing for something else.

I had intuitively started testing for loss of PPC with out realising it which I am a little pleased about....

Close to the ear? Behind the ear? In front of the ear? Sounds like parietal/occipital. Possible involving some of the temporal. I am unsure of how these superimpose precisely in the skull. I'm used to seeing brains deskulled.

If one draws a line from ear to ear around the back of the skull and draw a verticle line up the centre of the back of the skull the pain was experience about 20mm frmm the centre of the skull to towards the left ear.
Vert, I think it is worth pointing out that ihave been experienceing an average of say 60 or more PPC type loss events per day for about 12 years now.

each event either a repeat of an earlier one or a new one.
60 events times 12 years are a lot of events.......and I think you know I am not exagerating......and as my brain and body has learned to control these events ( Intuitive learning ) the repetition ceases. It is not an easy process I might add. Quite exhausting.

The experiences have often involved other persons in ways that are verifiable but not consistently repeatable.
My current wife would give testimony to this fact, however this is not my concern. For me telepathy and other esoteric metaphysical abilities are not a concern......as far as proof is concerned as I live with it every day.

My most important concern is to achieve a healthy state.

Could you think? In words that is. There is another thread going on about whether we can think (logically) without words. I tend to believe that words (language of some kind) are integral to the process. Without them we can know, but we can't know we know.

As funny as it may sound I thought in musical terms......

Actually if one removes writing as a mathematical symbolic form of the sound your words make, yo can see that thinkingis in fact musical, and this would also explain the emotive relationship our thoughts have within our selves.

We think in sound patterns that when involving speach are very complicated sounds.

The thoughts I thought were based on sounds remembered and learned a fresh.

I remember learning to speak again by listening to the sound of peoples voices and not just the words they were using.

When we say thinking in words we are in fact thinking in sounds that have meaning ( words ) after all the voice is sound with meaning.....

The reason I know this is that I found I could only hear my self think with my Right ear. via the auditiory canal to the ear.

I couldn't hear my thoughts with my left ear, creating an auditory inbalance thus atenuating the sound and making my thoughts very loud but only heard from the right ear. The sinuses of the face and skull also play a part although I am not entirely sure of how. (especially the sinatic cavity of the far outer cheek bone.)

Beacause of this error or imbalance I was able to discern the differences and locations. In a normal state the balance rules out locations.

Sorry, QQ. Not ignoring you or your problem, I was just a bit busy yesterday. Too damn much on my plate sometimes. I promise I will get to this thread and try to tell you what I know of these things. Hopefully Gendanken will arrive as well, she knows more than I on the whole. It's a shame that there are no real neurologists on this site. They could be very helpful, couldn't they?

certainly if their was some one with particular experience in Propriorception problems