Try and convince me otherwise. As I see it they are murderers who believe they are above the law and should all be brought to justice. I don't care if they are your protectors, they aren't mine. And if you support the actions of these groups (or are a member of them) then you are undeniably evil by all definitions of evil I accept. You murders aren't safe around me so keep them away. If I were christian I would call them the long, extending, and penetrating fingers of the devil. Justify thier existence or disband them. This doesn't apply to all spy agencies btw, only those that consider death an acceptable outcome to citizens in other countries whom they are not at war with. If I were a major world leader I would consider the presence of any of there "people" and act of war. Excuse my insensitivity but these murderous bastards just anger me so much. *** Moderator edit - profanity adds nothing to your post
The definition of "evil" is defined by individual morals. Despite your claim of not being a christian, it is their definition to which you seem to draw yours. What is it you truly want to discuss here? :m: Peace.
I want someone who benefits from these organizations, and agrees with them to justify thier position to me if they can.
As you say that you do not benefit from their activities, you might at least share where you live... :m: Peace.
I currently live in Canada. You may argue that I do infact benefit by the security they provide, but I would need a specific example to be convinced of such. And even then it would be unwanted.
Ahhhh... an example of a flaw in your opening premise would be unwanted. In that case, it is certain that you are not looking for discussion. Welcome to SciForums. An open mind might serve you better, but the choice is yours. :m: Peace.
Um, blank, So you're telling me that I have to prove something isn't evil? Why? I personally think that you have limited knowledge on the CIA and Mossad. If you don't want to get laughed at, then I recommend you make a case, instead of saying, "well - if you can't prove they're evil, then I'm obviously right". A lot of boardies aren't as forgiving as goofy, but I'm sure that if you learn our customs, you'll fit well into Sciforums. -Welcome.
Alright then. It is my opinion that the cia and mossad are morally evil because they kill innocent scientists and business men on ocassion. I also dislike the way that they are accepted as a fact of life. And instead of convincing me as that may imply that I will not listen to things I don't like, then tell me why they are nessesary and "worth it". What I wanted was to either spark debate about that they shouldn't be accepted, or be given information as to why they are nessesary and why one should accept them. I am actually quite open minded and would have liked someone knowledgeable to give insightful information on this matter. Maybe my emotions on this issue got in the way and I seemed too hostile, and I apolagize. But surely someone can justify these organization to thier own satisfaction if not mine, instead of saying I don't want to hear the truth, speak away. For maybe it is the other way around.
Executive Order 12333 prohibits the CIA from political assassinations, or conspiring with others to commit political assassinations. They're probably you're protector more than you realize. When Canada became a member of NATO Canada began to benefit indirectly from CIA intelligence. What is your definition of evil, being that you're not Christian? If I'm evil, I need to know at what level my evil lies according to which god or gods. Why? When did you get appointed arbitrator? Insensitive to whom? The members of Sciforums? The CIA and Mossad? BTW, which particular 'spy' agencies are OK by your definition?
COnsidering that they work for their respective governments isn't it logical to assume that THEY aren't the perpetrators of the actions of which you accuse them? If my boss says jump then I jump. Otherwise, I wait for the orders.
why would a gov. need to operate corvertly in other contries, unless they wish to manipulete them or gain infomation they otherwise would not be able to get. spyes are for backstabing.
The CIA is not merely an organization of spies. 90% of CIA employees are merely pencil pushers, analysts, etc., who sit behind desks for their entire careers. Some gather and analyze information accumulated from other organizations and the 'spies' that are active. Some spend their careers studying and predicting the moves of men like Saddam Hussein from intelligence gathered over the course of years. While there is obviously some covert activity, Executive Orders such as 11905 and EO 12333 seriously curtailed the activities of the CIA in the mid-70s and early 80s. But most of their work these days is intelligence gathering, not the stuff Ian Fleming and Robert Ludlow novels. Although we have had serious terrorist incidents such as 9/11 and the'93 WTC bombing, many more terrorist attempts have been thwarted by CIA intelligence gathering.
just because "90%" of the organication sites behind a desk pushing paper dont make them less guildty, they are part of the process. having a covert organication spawn paranio, do you truely know what they are doing, positive or negative. besides stoping direct attacks, what cia opreration would not be backstaping for the target, alliered or not.
I benefit and agree. Although I can't speak for the Israelis, I am very pleased with the reinvigorated Central Intelligence Agency. Why do we need a clandestine organization? Because there's radical organizations such as those spawned by hate teaching islamic religious nuts who love the thought of killing Americans, that's why! When faced with an enemy that hides in the shadow to secretly plot aggression against you it is only prudent to have an organization equiped to do the same. The CIA operates in secret through necessity.
As I've already said, the great majority of work the CIA is rather mundane, not the stuff of spy novels you seem to think is all intelligence gathering organizations do. Since the 70s the CIA has been greatly brought under rein. Most of what they do provides vital information to this country and to our allies. You've simply watched too many spy thrillers. During the Clinton Administration a CIA agent in Iraq reported to Washington that an Iraqi general was willing to assassinate Saddam and wanted US backing. The agent was sent home and not allowed to have any further contact with the general. It made the papers. The CIA has watchdogs, Senate oversignt committees, always keeping an eye on its activities. If it wasn't for the CIA and the sharing of information between it and other nation's intelligence organizations, both this nation and others would experience a lot more terrorist attacks, we couldn't know what N. Korea's missle capabilities were, and so on. I don't know where you live, and don't really care for that matter, so none of that may be important to you, but I like knowing what's going on out there in the real world.
For the record Coldrake, the neutering of the CIA that took place during the 70's has been removed. With the explosion of islamic terrorists the more overbearing constraints have been abandoned. I believe it was overdue, what good is an intelligence agency that can't effectively gather intelligence abroad?
They may be giving the CIA more freedom right now, but I believe that EO 12333 is still a constraint as far as political assassinations. I know in the past couple of weeks it was proposed that Bush allow EO 12333 to die, but I was under the impression it was still in effect as of now (although I may have missed something). I don't mind giving the CIA some more freedoms right now, but I think it is a mistake to give them the total freedom they had before 1976. JMO though.
I was under the belief that Reagans EO 12333 was more about protecting the rights of U.S. citizens? I'll take your word about the restriction on assassinatins too, I'm certainly not prepared to disagree with you.
I don't know if EO 12333 has been allowed to lapse or not - it is an interesting question. I do know that HR 19, submitted during the 107th congress seeks to eliminate selected parts of a few executive orders: SEC. 3. NULLIFICATION OF EFFECT OF CERTAIN PROVISIONS OF VARIOUS EXECUTIVE ORDERS. The following provisions of Executive orders shall have no further force or effect: (1) Section 5(g) of Executive Order 11905. (2) Section 2-305 of Executive Order 12036. (3) Section 2.11 of Executive Order 12333. :m: Peace.
