I belive that the whole bible is true. Every single word. How about that?!!!! We were CREATED of course. If you see a house, do you doubt that someone has made it? Do you belive me if I`d tell you that once upon a time there where just some bricks? But... as time has gone by the house has been built all by it self. How stupid! And, if you use your brain... Do you really belive that something so complicated and so difficult like a humanbeeing could be developed out uf nothing- the big bang???? The sienticets cant even make a simple flower by themselves... Its so obvious that someone, an intellegens greater than everything else, must have made the earth, the people, the flowers, everything. How can anyone who doesn`t doubt that every house is created by someone, doubt that we were created????

This idea is about as old as the first stone tool that was made by man. It is indeed a very good philosophical argument but wrong never the less. The notion is very much linked to how we percieve matter. Matter as being inanimate, as being 'dead'.
By doing this, inadvertedly a label is attached to matter which in effect makes no sense. Matter isn't dead or alive, it is there and it interacts through the different fundamental forces like gravity, electromagnetism and the nuclear forces.
Now I have to give some sort of definition of life because otherwise we are not talking about the same thing. Beware, that I'm not claiming to give a conclusive definition !
Life could be seen as a state of matter, while death is an other state but only in respect to the first, in as one has no meaning without the other.
In relation to your comparison with a house I would say : life is the house while matter are the bricks and death is a demolished house while the bricks are still there.

Now a brick indeed looks very inanimate at first, once it's put on its place, it pretty much just stays at its place. But while it is lying there several forces are at work : first of all gravity makes sure it stays where it is in respect to the earth, electromagnetism holds it's molecules together and makes sure it doesn't just fall to the centre of the planet (because that is where it is pulled towards) by pushing the electrons of the brick away from the electrons of the ground. In the brick unstable isotopes of some of it's atoms are falling apart into other atoms, changing the chemical/mineral properties of the stone. The protons (which are positively charged particles) want to fly away from each other in the nucleus but are hold together by the much stronger nuclear forces. Changing temperatures make the stone change its shape slightly, interaction with air and water molecules on the surface result to chemical reations making the binding forces with the interior much smaller and thus leads to corrosion.
You see matter isn't dull at all ! Indeed, almost as inevitable as the second law of thermodynamics says that overall chaos increases, it appears at the local level order increases, complexifies, diversifies, evolves, lives, thinks, questions...

------------------
we are midgets standing on the backs of giants,
Plato

Thank you Platon for your lesson in chemistry. I admit that you probably knows more than me about that, but as far as I can see, your explanation is just another proof that there is a God , because no matter what, someone must have made that matter your talking about. Not even that comes out of nothing. So, with your theory about that "living" brick you must admit that also the brick must have been made by someone... Your trying to make everything so confusing, when it really is very simple. Have you read the bible?
What made me interessed in it, is all those prophesys about the past, our days and also about the future. It doesnt matter how we came here, whats intresting is WHY we are here, and WHY God does allow suffering and pain if he exists, and care for us.
And IF we´ll be allowed to ruin the earth.
And do you know what? The bible has the answers.

I would like to refer to my new topic I just posted on absolute truth on this one, see you there.

------------------
we are midgets standing on the backs of giants,
Plato

there is no way the entire bible could be
true.
end of story

Flash,

You're not getting the humility thing, are you? The fact is that you have no f'ing idea whether or not every single thing in the Bible is true. Admit it.


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God loves you and so do I!

Lori,

The skeptical argument may always be triumphant, but it will never be respected.

Flash may be entirely wrong. s/he may be entirely right. The only thing that we can ever know for certain is the present. All we can do is live in the moment and do what of the most practical benefit to us at any given time.

[This message has been edited by DaveW (edited June 23, 1999).]

What I'm saying is, the universe is quite cabable of creating itself, no need for any creator as such.
You see creation is not really nescesary for god to exist, there are enough other things a deity can supervise then creation. If god really is above things as time and space then he can hardly have created them, no can he ? Because in doing that he would become submitted to them. Then you have the old paradox again where the omnipotent one creates the stone he cannot lift and thus destroying his own omnipotence.

By the way Richilin,
if the bible claims that the circomference divided by the diameter of a circel equals 3 is that true ? (we ARE talking about eucledian math here so don't get smart on me)
I have forgotten the exact line where it says that but I will look it up for you when I get around at it.

Aha, I found it : 1 Kings 7,23
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we are midgets standing on the backs of giants,
Plato

[This message has been edited by Plato (edited June 23, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by Plato (edited June 23, 1999).]

Plato,

You're talking as if God is a man or something. About controlling time and space and whatnot. God IS time and space and everything else. I don't think that God is a man, and he shouldn't be compared to our standards of reasoning or our physical laws. Let's just face it; we don't understand WHAT God is. Omnipotence? Do you get it? no. Neither do I, and neither does anyone else really. It's just not within our grasp. Jesus was the man. You da man, Jesus! But God is not; God is something much more than that.

PS, Dave. Flash is a she. Not that it really matters, but...

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God loves you and so do I!

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited June 23, 1999).]

I'm sorry I gave the impression that god is a man (especially if it turnes out she is a woman ;) ) but I'm stuck with the same problem as you are: namely our limited human language to talk about something that is supposed to be larger then that.

Look what I'm trying to say is that god as a notion is something that evolves as well during our history. The bible for example is now read in a different way then a 1000 years ago. Why, it's read in a different way by just about anyone who reads it ! This is a reason why it's not a good idea to put ones interpretation of something like the bible forward as the only true one. How much arrogance does it take to claim : 'I have found the key to the bible' ? The bible itself is as much a search as our struggle is with the Big Questions. The fact that the actual texts didn't evolve for two thousand years don't make them any more constant. Besides we don't have the original texts any more so may be some got changed as well, a lot can happen in 2000 years...

------------------
we are midgets standing on the backs of giants,
Plato

Lori,

Come on... I have given you a 100 reasons
why the Bible cannot be all true...if you
remember them..then you know I am right...

You can't prove me wrong..and that just
kills you doesn't it *S*

[This message has been edited by Flash (edited June 24, 1999).]

Hi there. I`m back. Excuse me Flash, I havnt heard your 100 explanations for why the bible cant be true... Please tell it to me one after the other, and I´ll reply.
And no, Plato, God is not a humanbeeing, BUT he is a person, with a personality, and he´s a spirit, who has an intellegens that you cant compare with anything or anyone.
The bible tells us many truths long before we know them, for an example: The people thought for a long time that the earth was flat, and put upon the back of four elephants who were standing on a turtle which was swimming around in the big ocean... or something like that. But all the time the bible said that the earth is round, or sperical, and hanged upon nothing.
Face it babes, the bible is perfect, and thats because its written by God.
God is the only person who has a life without beginning. There are more creatures who has got eternal life, for an example Jesus and the angels (and according to the bible we can recive it too, in the future), but they all have a beginning. They are all created, just like us. God is not, alltough our brains can not except that, because we cannot think in a eternal perspectiv...

(I´m sorry if I spell like a blind hen, but I´m swedish, and I´ve lived in spain for a while, so im in to the spanish spelling of the words...)

Richilin,

have you read anything of Terry Pratchets discworld books ? Wonderfull and hilarious stories, anyway I think the turtal with the elephants was an indian view on the world. Never came in our parts.
Could you perhaps show the exact passage where it says in the bible that the earth is a ball resting on nothing ? I'm very interested.
Besides you didn't said anything about 1 Kings 7,23 that is clearly wrong now isn't it ?

------------------
we are midgets standing on the backs of giants,
Plato

Flash,

What 100 things? And I'm not TRYING to be obtuse, here, really. Maybe I did not address them, or maybe I just smoked too much pot in college and I can't remember. Ok, shoot, one more time please, and we will address all.

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God loves you and so do I!

do not have time today to list all the reasons..but let's start here...
read Matt 28, Mark 16, Luke 24, and John 20-21... the story of easter..ok...
now... do not leave out a single detail in
all the descriptions. Not one. Write
down the chronological events beginning with
resurrection to the ascension of Jesus.
below are a few conflicts in their stories...
WHAT TIME DID THE WOMEN VISIT THE TOMB?
Matt: at dawn
Mark: as the rising of the sun
Luke: at early dawn
John: when it was yet dark

WHO WERE THE WOMEN??????
Matt: Mary Magdalene and the other Mary
Mark: Mary Madalene, the mother of James,
and Salome
Luke: Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother
of James, and other women
John: Mary Magdalene

WHAT WAS THEIR PURPOSE?
Matt: to see the tomb
Mark: had already seen the tomb & brought spices
Luke: already seen the tomb & brought spices
John: the body had already been spiced BEFORE
they arrived

WAS THE TOMB OPENED WHEN THEY ARRIVED?
Matt: NO
Mark: yes
Luke: yes
John: yes

WHO WAS AT THE TOMB WHEN THEY ARRIVED?
Matt: one angel
Mark: one young man
Luke: two men
John: two angels

WHERE WERE THE MESSENGERS SITTING?
Matt: Angel sitting on the stone
Mark: young man sitting inside on the right
Luke: two men standing inside
John: two angel sitting on each side of the
bed

WHAT DID THE MESSENGERS SAY??
(read this yourself)
Matt 28: 5-7
Mark 16: 6-7
Luke 24:5-7
John 20:13

DID THE WOMEN TELL WHAT HAPPENED?
Matt: yes
Mark No "neither said they anything to
any man" (16:8)
Luke yes "and they returned from the tomb
and told all these things to the eleven,
and to all the rest" (24:9,22-24)
John yes

WHEN MARY RETURNED FROM THE TOMB, DID SHE KNOW JESUS HAD BEEN RESURRECTED???
Matt yes
Mark yes
Luke yes
John NO

WHEN DID MARY FIRST SEE JESUS?
Matt before she returned to the disciples
Mark " "
John after she returned to the disciples

COULD JESUS BE TOUCHED AFTER THE RESURRECTION?
Matt yes
John no (20:17) yes (20:27)

AFTER THE WOMEN..WHO DID JESUS FIRST APPEAR
NEXT??
Matt: 11 disciples
Mark: 2 disciples in the country then to
the 11
Luke: 2 disciples in Emmaus, later to 11
John 10 disciples...
in the book of Paul it states
first to Cephas.. then to the 12..
12????? wasn't Judas dead??? LOL

WHERE DID JESUS FIRST APPEAR TO THE DISCIPLES??
Matt On a mountain in Galilee (60-100 miles
away)
Mark to 2 in the country, to the 11 "as they
sat at meat"
Luke In Emmaus (about 7 miles away)at
evening, to the rest in a room in Jerusalem
John in a room at evening

DID THE DISCIPLES BELIEVE THE TWO MEN?
Mark NO
Luke yes (the group speaking ..not the 2)

DID JESUS STAY ON EARTH AWHILE?
Matt no(16:19) compare 16:14 with John
20:19 so this shows all was done on
sunday
Luke no..all happened on sunday
John yes, at least 8 days
Acts 1:3 said yes, at least 40 days!!

Look these dudes can't get their story straight.. and the Bible is perfect???
is this what you call perfection???
and isn't this suppose to be one of the most
important stories of the bible??
I smell a fish!!!!

Wow, I'm like totally impressed with your Biblical knowledge, you former Sunday School teacher, you! lol!

I'm not challenging a thing that you've said here; not even going to look it up, cause I'm sure that you have the details straight. What I will ask, though, is why are these details so important to you? I mean, why don't we just sum it all up like this....Jesus was dead, and then he rose from the dead. Isn't that enough? I mean, especially considering all that He did while He was alive. It's like taking out a tape measure and trying to get the exact dimensions of some miracle...who really cares? What's important is that it happened! It's like, what if a bunch of people were at an air show, and one of the planes exploded in mid-air and came crashing down into the crowd. You take 5 different survivors, and have them recap the details of the event. Do you think that you would get the exact same story out of each of them? No, you would probably get 5 different stories from 5 different viewpoints, and it may even sound like 5 different plane crash events. BUT, they are all talking of A PLANE CRASHING. There's no doubt in anyone's story that they witnessed a plane crash. Do you see what I mean?

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God loves you and so do I!

Lori,
I do see what you are saying. However,
have not you and a few others here claim
that the bible is correct? That god would
make sure his word is protected? If that
is so... why all the contradictions in
the bible??? Why would it not be totally
clear?????? Their stories do not match up..
I mean come on... how do you confuse
60-100 miles vs. 7???? If this can happen..
just showing you what is suppose to be the
foundation of a personal relationship with
god via Jesus... then how do you know the
events are even true? I mean this is
story is suppose to save people and rock
their world..yet, they can't even get it
straight? Why wouldn't god make it so...after all..isn't the bible suppose to
be the inspired word of god?

SATAN guides the blind and then the blind guide the blind and so forth and so forth.
Babylon will fall and then you're all f**ked.

generalhurrss you crack me up!!!

The books you are referring to were written by "men" at different times and different places. I believe that these men were inspired by the holy spirit, but I don't think the purpose of the gospels were to give an exact account of certain events. They had other purposes.

For instance, the book of Matthew was unnamed, but the early church and scholars believe that it was written by Matthew. An ongoing debate by scholars is the time when it was written - possibly sometime before 70 A.D., and that Matthew used Mark as a source. The purpose for the book of Matthew was to show detailed lineage of Christ and that the Old Testament prophesies had been fullfilled by Christ.

Mark who was also known as John (Hebrew name), was not one of the original twelve disciples. Scholars say that it was written possibly around 65 & 68 A.D. The pupose of the book was to show Jesus's ministry and his activities, and the "Good news of Jesus".

Luke was written between 59 & 63 A.D. and is considered an historical work with a theological message. It's purpose was to show that Christ was the one that all people could find salvation through.

My point: They weren't written for the purpose that you have deemed them to have been. Men wrote them and accounted what others had seen and heard, as well as themselves. In the book of Matthew there is a lot of "you have heard", "it is written", and "that which was spoken" - not a lot of first hand accounts.

Some Scholars say that Matthew was probably written later than both Mark and Luke. The early church made the decision to put Matthew at the begining of the New Testament because they felt it was kinda a bridge between the Old and the New.

The Bible was written by man, compiled by man, but inspired by God. Get my point?

Bev :)

Hey babes
Oki, Plato. Now I´ve got what your talking about, in 1 kings. Pi? Aren´t you?
Oki, so they wright it like its 3 in the bible, when its 3,14 ? Thats your point?
Big deal!!
Oki, read Job 26:7 where it says that the earth is hung upon nothing.
Gotta go now. I can hear the thunder.
Kisses!

Im back for a while. Flash! What you´re wrighting is so stupid... But I understand your point. But the disipulos(spanish, i dont know what it is in english, but i bet you understand me)were different persons, with different backgrounds... For an example, Luke was a doctor, and of course he discribed the situations in another way than for an example Matthew. And it just makes me more sure that the bible tells the truth. Would you consider it to be true if the evangelies were syncronized? Oh no, than something would be really wrong. Different people tells a story different, although its the same story. The bible is not written by God, its INSPIRED by Him.
Hoping you´ll find the truth someday. You´re obviously looking for it.
Kisses

It's the BIG picture that is inspired here. The big picture is PERFECT, and not mistaken. Flash, you know as well as I that you are LOOKING to disprove the Bible as many others are, but it is futile. The message is the same, whether you're reading from the KJV, or some watered-down "Bible for dummies" like I have. It's exactly the same. And with all of the contradictions that you have in mind, the message is still the same, and it is the exact message that God inspired, and that He is desparately trying to get you to pay attention to. Why do you think that the Bible has 5 different interpretations of the Gospel? For added confusion? No, to drive home the same exact message. Which you are ignoring because the little details don't match up correctly. Let me put it this way...they're f'ing close enough.

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God loves you and so do I!

shouldn't a document that was divinely
inspired by an omniscient and omnipotent
deity be as clear as possible??????????
Lori, the message is the same?????????
what about the contradictions of the bible
you read in Exodus 20:13 thou shalt not kill
and Leviticus 24:17 he that killeth any man
shall surely be put to death
THEN Exodus 32:27 Thus sayeth the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, . . . and slay every man his brother, . . . companion, . . . neighbor."
I Samuel 6:19 " . . . and the people lamented because the Lord had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter."

how about this:

James 1:13 "Let no man say . . . I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil,
neither tempteth he any man."
THEN it says:
Genesis 22:1 "And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham."
You know there are tons and tons more contradictions such as these... the message is clear?????????? How so??????????
and shouldn't it alllllllll be clear???
ok, so maybe the easter story has a lot of
details that do not match up and shouldn't matter?? I guess... alright..
I could give that to you all...but really..
the messages are not as clear as some of you
are trying to make them out to be... so then
how do you know what is right and what is wrong... I really hate this word..but how
do you know what is sin and what is not
SEEING how the bible contradicts itself??
sooooooooooooooo many contradictions...
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.... could it be
that is because it is not all true?!?!?!

Flash:

Ka-ching!!!! Bullseye...

------------------
I am; therefore I think.

Lori,

be very careful here, when you say only to look at the big picture all firm ground can be lost ! Because actually what you are saying is not to take the bible for what it says but for what it represents so then the question follows, what does it represent ? What authority is going to tell us that ? Or do we have to find it for ourselves ? And if so then why use the bible any way ?

------------------
we are midgets standing on the backs of giants,
Plato

Ok, what about an arguement of idealism vs reality? The way I tend to think about things...is that there is an ideal, which is perfect, and which is the way in which God intended us to live. Not tempted by sin, nor committing any sin...ie. thou shalt not kill. Then there is reality, and the circumstance into which we are all born. We WILL sin, there IS sin, and we have to "deal" with it somehow...ie. if someone breaks into your house in the wee hours of the morning with a butcher knife and wanting to cut your throat, what to do? So, in essence, I think that the Bible addresses two different sets of circumstance; one being an "ideal", and the other being "reality". Is that valid?

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God loves you and so do I!

Richilin, *lmao*, you really believe the Earth was created in 7 days?

I'm a bit pissed off here so please excuse my typos and the temper.

If God is the most powerful thing in the universe, then why in the hell did it take him 7 days to make this measley little rock? And it only took one damn day to make the sun, something 109 times greater in diameter! It should have tooken him a little more than one day.

One thing to think about that I haven't heard anyone else mentioned in arguments over creation vs. evolution...

The sun, stars, the planet people walked on, the moon, life on the planet. That's all we could see during the time of the early bible. Coincidently that's all the bible says God created? I think not!

And, further more, it says the Earth was created in 7 days.

NEWSFLASH!

WE KNOW THAT THE EARTH IS ABOUT <U4.5 BILLION YEARS OLD</U>, AND WE ALSO KNOW HUMANS HAVE ONLY BEEN AROUND ABOUT 100,000 YEARS.

The bible clearly says that it means what it means, because it's supposed to be from God. And, it SAYS, that the Earth was created in 7 days!

HOLY SHIT *literally*

Also, how about the dinosaurs? Huh? How about them? They were here waaaaaayyyyyy long before us. And the bible failed to mention them, although it named everything a human could observe during the time it was written, and lacks everything that a human couldn't.

Do you think volcanos erupt just for the hell of it? Nature just decides to give out a little choas now and then? No. They are examples of how the earth was created.

It baffles me to see all of us arguing over if there is a God, and if there was a God, I'm sure everyone would be a believer, including the crazies and (all) the scientists.

Scientists: I need your expert oppinion, if the Earth was created in 7 days, couldn't science account for it? If it was all made in 7 damned days, then through a serious of testing, science could prove that it was!?

Anything I mention further would be pretty much a wasted effort and I direct you to Boris' post in Evolution Vs. Creation Part 1. READ IT.

All I can say is, if you've heard all the facts, and you still believe, you make me sick and I suggest you get therapy or somethign because you are NUTS.

MaTTo

Also, to the religious crazys, give the movie "Planet of The Apes" a try. I won't use a science fiction film as a complete basis to proving creation is false, but it's something worthy mentioning. There really is some important issues in this film that I've just begun to love.

The apes arose intelligently through man's downfall thanks to nuclear war. They were the intelligent ones, while man de-evolved and lost it's ability to speak.

Ironicially, Apes considered themselves "holy" because at the time they were smart and able to talk, and were able to view the world around them.

Equally ironic, the Apes thought they were holy and humans weren't. They looked on humans as do we monkeys today. They thought they had a soul, and we, the humans, do not.

Even more ironic, they flipped their lid when they discovered a small group of humans that could speak exactly like they do, because it disproved their religion and it took away their conceived meaning to life.

It was a good movie, with not only good plot, but good meaning.

Gorillas have the ablitly to give sign language today with a vocabulary of about 2,500 (2,500 something - I think I'm right about that fact, I'm not sure) and I consider that speaking, unless you are sick and want to think that HUMANS who use sign langauge and are unable to speak are just as equally "un-important" like Goriallas?

They're able to give off emotion just as much as we are, and yet, we say, they have no soul, just us "special" humans.

MaTTo

Bev,
someone's got to have a sense of humour here, coz religion sucks.
The bible was written by man under the influence of drugs, er no, I mean, under the influence of extraterrestrial intelligence.
Jesus Christ was a hybrid and we all shunned him and sent him back into space.
Has there ever been another virgin birth?

I do have a serious point here though (hang on I'm always serious), if any of you have read genisis, have you noticed that this god, an alien who goes by the name jehova, went round speaking to a lot of people, so where is he now. Why does he not speak to people now, suddenly become shy has he? or is it because he does not exist anymore - I should image even aliens die of old age.
And what about the talking reptile can any of say you have ever seen one, I doubt that very much.
The bible is a weak concept for the weak minded.

Knock 'em dead Flash.

And all you suckers, crucify me, after all that's what your good at, you did it to your own saviour.

Religion sucks.

Satan leads the blind and the blind lead the blind and so forth.

Matto:

Not bad, but a couple of corrections are in order. First, it's about 250 words, not 2,500. And second, it's not gorillas -- it's chimpanzees. (Just wanted to set the facts straight before some looney latches on to them to discount your entire post).

------------------
I am; therefore I think.

Thanks Boris,

I thought it was something like 2,500. Honestly I pulled that number out of my head without even checking it out to see if I was absolutely right.

And there's no excuse for it - I was simply to lazy to pick up a text book on the other side of my house to back up what I said. Oh well - I'm human. :-)

But now I have to ask myself the same question you should be asking yourself:

Would they have really noticed that a few of the things in my posting was wrong and would they have cared?

Even if I was right the first time said, would it have mattered?

Would it have changed their minds, and altered their perceptions?

Look around in the postings. Look at the over whelming evidence presented. That, obviously, had no effect.

I don't see what use it is telling them what's the truth and what's not. They have it pretty much figured out for themselves and nothing will change that.

1 question that I will use in the defense for science:

Where would we be today, if the great minds of yesterday just gave up and left it up to God?

MaTTo

[This message has been edited by MaTTo (edited July 07, 1999).]

To Matto
GENESIS 1:1-2

10 (1:2) Creation--God. Creator--Gap Theory--Divine Judgment Theory-Recreation
Theory.-Restitution Theory--Satan, Fall of: the second major position on creation is known by at least
four names, but the most used name is probably The Gap Theory. The other names by which the
theory is known are The Recreation Theory, The Restitution Theory, or The Divine Judgment Theory.
Each of the names stresses some major point of the theory.
Briefly stated, the Gap theory says that the word "was" (v.2) should be translated "became.~ The
earth was created perfect in verse one. But in verse two the earth is seen as a waste and void. Thus
between verse one and verse two there is a huge gap of time, an unknown number of centuries.
Between the two verses something happened--something with catastrophic consequences. What? What
caused the earth to 'become a waste and void"? It is usually said that Satan's fall occurred at this time,
and his rebellion against God caused a catastrophic judgment to fall upon the earth. (See Is.14:12; cp.
Ezk.28:12.) Thus verse one describes a perfect creation, and verse two describes what happened to the
earth after a great judgment fell upon it. Verse three begins the recreation of the earth by the Spirit of
God who had been hovering over the earth. There are several arguments used to support this position.
1. The word "was" can be translated "became." Therefore, these two verses should read:
"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth became without form
and void
[empty]" (Gen.l:l-2).
2. The Bible clearly says that the earth was created "not in vain [empty, as a waste]" (Is.45:18).
Therefore, when God created the earth, it must have been perfect. The earth must have reflected the
very perfection of God's nature, the perfection of all His glory and majesty. This logical argument is
also added: a perfect and loving God cannot create an imperfect universe. A perfect and loving God
can create only a perfect world.
"For thus salth the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and
made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain ]empty, as a waste], he formed it to be
inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else' (Is.45:18).
3. The Bible teaches that Satan (Lucifer) was the most exalted angel in all of heaven, that God had
created him to rule as the highest of all created beings. But Satan did the same thing that all men have
done: he sinned and fell. He rebelled against God. Therefore, just as man was cast out of the Garden of
Eden, so Satan was cast from his exalted position before God. And just as men are to face the eternal
judgment of God, so is Satan. Satan is to be condemned to an eternity of hell--soon, very soon, just as
all men who reject God are to be condemned.
When was Satan cast from his exalted position before God? The Gap Theory says in the dateless
past, someplace in the ages between verses one and two. And Satan's fall caused a catastrophic
judgment to fall upon the earth. Apparently, part of his rule and reign was the earth and the physical
and material universe. Therefore, when judgment fell upon Satan, judgment also fell upon all that he
ruled over, which included the earth. It was then that the earth became "without form and void [empty,
a waste]" (Gen.l:2).
"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to
the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into
heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the
congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be
like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit"
(1s.14:12-15).
"Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Son of man, take up a lamentation
upon the king of Tyrus [a type of Satan, Lucifer], and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD;
Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. Thou hast been in Eden the
garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the
beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the
workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast
created. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the
holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of tie. Thou
wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. By
the multitude of thy merchandise they have rifled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast
sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and 1 will destroy thee,
O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. Thine heart was lifted up because of
thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the
ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. Thou hast defiled thy
sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffic; therefore will I
bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon
the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee' (Ezk.28:ll-18).
4. The Bible teaches that Satan has some control over the earth: he has access to influence the
world and man. History and the destruction and devastation of nature and the evil of men show that the
domain of Satan includes the earth, at least to some degree. God certainly did not create the universe
and then put Satan and his evil forces in charge of it. This would be absolutely contrary to God's
nature. Therefore, Satan's fall and control over the earth had to take place after the earth and universe
were created. Again, the only time this could have happened was between verse one and verse two.
God created a perfect heavens and earth, and then when Satan fell, the earth "became without form
and void" because it was under the domain of Satan. (See note, Satan--Rev. 12:9 for more discussion.)
Scripture calls Satan the god of this world.
"But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: in whom the god of this
world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious
gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them' (2 Cur.4:3-4).
Scripture calls Satan the prince of this world.
"Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out"
(Jn.12:31).

GENESIS 1:1-2

"Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and
hath nothing in me" (Jn.14:30).
"Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged" (Jn.16:ll).
Scripture calls Satan the prince of the power of the air.
"Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according
to the prince of
the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience"
(Eph.2:2). Scripture calls Satan the ruler of the darkness of this world.
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers,
against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high
places" (Eph.6:12).
Satan is the king of a kingdom.
"And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his
kingdom stand?' (Mt.12:26).
"Again, the devil taketh Him up into an exceeding high mountain, and showeth him
all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; and saith unto him, All these things
will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me" (Mt.4:8-9).
Satan has his grip upon the whole world.
"And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness" (1
Jn.5:19).
5. The earth shows some signs that it has suffered some prehistoric catastrophe. Most of us have
seen pictures or read of prehistoric animals that were found frozen with their internal organs intact.
They apparently suffered some catastrophe that immediately fell upon them and froze them or else their
internal organs would have decayed. This points to an unexpected and immediate catastrophe that
caught the world of the animals off guard. The fall of Satan would explain the catastrophe.
6. The words "without form and void' (tohu va bohu) are used together in only two other places
(Is.34:11; Jer.4:23). In both cases they point to a condition brought by God's judgment. Therefore, it is
argued that to be consistent, we must conclude that the earth became "without form and void" here in
verse two because of some judgment of God. The only prehistoric judgment revealed by Scripture is that
of Satan when he fell.
7. The gap, the indefinite period of time between verses one and two, can be used to explain the
scientific discoveries that point to a prehistoric earth. The fossil discoveries of prehistoric animals and
vegetation and the centuries needed for mineral deposits to develop--all these can be explained as
having taken place during the ages between verses one and two.
8. The earth had to be created perfect because a perfect God was creating it. A perfect God could
never create anything "without form and void."
9. The structure of the creation account sets verses one and two off from the rest of the account of
creation. Genesis 1:1-2 is just different from Genesis 1:3-31, significantly different.
- Verse three is where the seven days of creation begin, not verses one and two.
Verse three is where Scripture begins to declare that 'God said," and where the six days of
creation begin.
And note how each of the days of creation begin with the very same words "God said~
(Gen.1:3, 6, 9, 14, 20,
24). This sets the actual creation of the universe off from verses one and two--markedly
so--according to the
Gap Theory.
Each day of creation is also set off by what is said at the close of the day's account. Note the
words, 'And
the evening and the morning were the first [second, third, fourth, fifth,and sixth] day" (vs.5,
8, 13, 19, 23, 31).
The very structure of the creation account is hereby said to point to two different creations of the
universe. Verses one and two are said to be the record of the original creation, and verses three to
twenty-three gives the record of the recreation of the earth after some catastrophic judgment fell upon
the earth.
10. The Bible says that God instructed man to "be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth"
(Gun.l:28). Note the word "replenish." To replenish means to fill again, to repopulate, not to populate
for the first time.
11. The Bible says that when the foundations of the earth were laid, "the morning stars [angels] sang
together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy" (Job 38:7). An undeveloped and unshaped earth would
not be reason for singing a song of joy nor for rejoicing in God's sovereignty, in His supreme
intelligence and power.

O.K., what about the fact that the New and Old Testaments appear to be 2 completely, unrelated books. The Old Testament is full of all manner of violence, like Jehovah ordering the Jews into a neighboring village to smite their enemies, every man, woman, child, goat, chicken, puppy, every living creature! Would the Great Spirit really do this, does the Universe operate in this manner? No, it does not. And the Old Testament also talks about the numerous Gods which were being worshiped, and that the Jews chose to worship this specific deity and actually had contact with this deity and were instructed by it to do things and live by certain rules (most of which make perfect sense). Doesn't it make sense that if Jehovah was (is?!) real, so were the other deities who had set themselves up as rulers in other parts of the Middle East and Africa, (probably all over the world)?

On the other hand, the New Testament seems to me to be much closer to what the Great Spirit would have us know to become part of it again, Love is the key to everything, Love your enemies, etc., etc. And Jesus was one evolved human being, I believe he made it. But does he not say on numerous occasions that we all have the capability to achieve what he has, and this is why we are here? (If only we could truly Love, and do the right thing).

I'd be interested to hear other opinions on this stuff.

Flash, a quick answer to you points is that your perspective is false in every case. If John & Paul climbed a tree and I told Steve that John climbed a tree and got some fruit, while, Mary told Sally that John & Paul climbed a tree, And Tom told Jay that Paul climbed a tree and laughed, we would still all be talking about the same event. Even when someone is not spoken of ( angles at the tomb ), it does not mean the lack of the other presence. If your right eye and your left eye could see the exact same picture from the exact same perspective, God would have given you only one. He gives us different aspects of His Glory through different men. He only loads he story with what is of value to that perspective. Try the trick where you look through a cardboard tube with one eye while looking at the open palm of your hand with your other eye and about 6-10 inches away from your face. Can you really see through your hand? Both eyes tell the truth. It's the man perceiving that fails to connect the dots properly. God's word is without flaws!!!!! Jesus Loves you and there is Salvation from Sin. Read it again for the first time.

You may contact me personally at isda@gte.net

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Vicki,</P>



<FONT SIZE="5">o</FONT>ne of the reasons that God put
so much prophecy in the Bible is for confirmation of His truth and
His truth yet to be revealed. The New and Old Testament tie together
without flaw. The wrath of the Old Testament. is from the same God as
the Salvation of the New Testament. There is no other God. It might
also surprise you to know that the Old Testament was peppered with
revelation of the Lord Jesus. All this belongs to God. Weather you
like it or not, we are not on His level. He can do with us as He
chooses. Like Mama always said, &quot;I brought you into this world
and I can take you out!&quot; Thankfully, He chooses to give us a
choice. As we all know choices have consequences!!! I will try
to make all this plain.</P>



God is a God of eternal <FONT COLOR="RED"><FONT SIZE="5">Perfection</FONT></FONT></P>



The only thing God can't do is SIN. To loose His perfection would
cause Him to cease being God. God is forever. That can't happen. His
plan is never wrong. He knows all things. Thankfully, nowhere in the
Bible does he say that we have to agree with Him in order for Him to
be our God. His perfection is without condition.</P>



God is a <FONT COLOR="RED"><FONT SIZE="5">Just</FONT></FONT> God</P>



If I admittedly murdered your mother, and was taken to stand before a
judge, then simply told not to do that kind of thing again and then
sent home, would that be justice? NO WAY!!! However, being in sin, as
humans, our view of sin is far too tempered. We think in terms of <FONT SIZE="5">BIG
LIES</FONT> and<FONT COLOR="AQUA"> </FONT><SUB><FONT SIZE="2"><FONT COLOR="SILVER">little
white lies</FONT></FONT></SUB>. Jesus said to Love God with all your
heart and your neighbor as yourself and no sin would be committed. He
put all sins on the same level. The Bible makes it clear that all
sins are against God. Going back to the murder example, wouldn't you
expect there to be payment for the murder of your mother? YES! How
much less do you think God would demand payment? God says that the
wages if SIN is DEATH. God defines death as not being in fellowship
with Him. The completion of death being Hell; the only place you wont
find God in all that exists. Furthermore, God says that ALL HAVE
SINNED and fallen short of the glory of God. Justice is fine when
it's in you favor. What about when you're the one on the business end
of justice? No man can stand against the judgement he's brought
against himself. But, wait, isn't there a conflict? What about that
Love aspect? Everyone knows, or should, that a truly loving parent
will at sometime need to spank a child's bottom to teach the lessons
of boundaries and consequences Death, however, seems to be a bit
extreme. Right? Consider this. We each only have one chance to live
in the flesh before we enter into eternity. You WILL spend it
somewhere. The choice is yours. Again, where there is choice, there
is consequence. If you spend a lifetime of ignoring, only giving a
passing glance to, thumbing your nose at, or falsely relating to God
it all translates into one thing. Before I tell you what that is,
hear this. God said that if you are not for Him then you are against
Him. Jesus went on to say that no man comes to the Father except by
Me. He also recounted that He is the door and you must enter by the
door because anyone entering by the window is a thief. God only
provides one plan of salvation!!!! Now, to tell you what you've been
waiting for, it all translates into,&quot;God, leave me alone. I can
do it all myself. I don't need you.&quot; Being cast into Hell isn't
cruel. It's when God finally says,&quot; Fine! have it your way!&quot;
You see, if you live you life in separation from God, then, you are
spiritually dead already. Once you physically die, you get to have
that eternal death you've been gunning for so long. Remember, you
have to spend eternity somewhere and God is the only good in all
eternity. Therefore, if you cling to, that is to sew, evil in this
life, you will live in, reap, the fruits of your labor which is
DEATH. Trusting that His Son is the only way to be saved and that He
will save you if you ask and believe and if you turn from you sinful
ways and turn to Christ, then you will be saved. Notice, there is
nothing said about doing any good works, paying any pinnace, saying
any pre-prescribed prayer, or living in perfection. God knows that
you're only human. It is by Faith in Jesus alone that men are saved.
Still, isn't there a conflict here? Isn't this just like being sent
home from court a happy and freed murderer? Let's find out what Love
has to say about this.</P>



God is a God of eternal <FONT SIZE="5"><FONT COLOR="RED">Love</FONT></FONT></P>



Like His Perfection, His love is without condition. It's common among
men for one to stop loving the other because the other has become
mean or acted in a evil way. One thing we often overlook is that
God's Love is Perfect and His Perfection is Love. He can no more stop
being perfect than He can stop being Love. God makes some bold claims
about Love, real love that is. Among other things, God says that Love
is long suffering. Ever wonder why He doesn't give everyone what they
deserve right now? If He did, most of the world would go straight to
HELL. He's still giving you a chance to give your life over to Him.
God says that Love is quick to forget transgressions. He even
promises to take your sins and place them as far away from you as the
east is from the west when you trust in His plan of salvation. God
says that Love is not self serving. God did something incredible!!!!!
It's hard to comprehend. All I can say is that God is not limited by
the same physical laws that man is. Ya see, when God sent Jesus
through the virgin Mary, He impregnated her with Himself. He never
stopped being God. He was still everywhere. He just, in a way,
extended Himself. he came and He served us. Imagine that. The God who
created us came and served us. How could this happen? Love is the
answer? Let's look back at that murder trial again. This time,
there's a twist. A conviction is certain. The murderer is your son.
The victim is irrelevant. A conviction would mean DEATH for your son.
This child that you felt growing inside of you,... this child you
love so much,... will become a victim of his own sin. Do you know
that God created us and Loves each and every last one of us dearly?
Think of the agony!!!! God, being a Just God, could not abandon
Justice! God, being a God of Love, could not abandon the Love He
bared for His Creation! Can you see the conflict here? SIN MUST
be punished. While, at the same time, His Love wants to set FREE
the condemned! Someone must pay!!! Therefore, He sent, of Himself, a
Savior to bare the burden of all men on the Cross. It was a FREE Gift
that no man could earn. God covered the debt of SIN once and for all.
There's just one thing. Man is hung up on doing it himself. He will
forsake a FREE gift because it looks too easy. I'll leave you with
one last example. If I meet you in a park and I tell you that I have
a Free gift for you. I set it down on the bench you're sitting on in
front of you and I walk away to continue my gift giving. If you never
take hold of the package and open it,... if you just stand up, walk
away, and go on with your life, is the gift yours?</P>



NO!</P>



If you examine the package,... if you look inside to see what it is
and never take it with you, is it yours?</P>



NO!</P>



How have you treated the FREE Gift of Salvation that God has given you?</P>



He gives His gift to all. Everyone's sin is the same. It's covered by
the Blood of Jesus Christ, the Living Word, the Son of God!</P>



You may contact me personally at isda@gte.net</P>



P.S.- There's not much I haven't heard if you would like to talk.
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ISDAMAN,
Ok...did you not read the second post with
the scriptures I had listed?
Either is was..or wasn't.
I would like to know if god's word is so perfect.. whyyyyyyyy are there 100's of
contradictions? Makes no sense whatsoever.
I have read the bible..lots of times..
I must confess...the first time I read it
I had rose colored glasses on..until..wham..
a light went on... how can something that is
suppose to be truth do nothing but contradict itself? Why wouldn't god make it clear?
What's the saying... when in doubt do without? So I guess until I see a burning
bush... LOL

Dear Isdaman:

I have to admit that a God, who you claim is all perfection and love, but yet would cast me into hell for an eternity of suffering, scares me. How can this be so? This makes no sense! I know that he has given all of us free will, and all of our choices have consequences (my consequences tend to be instaneous, like John Lennon's song, Instant Karma), but why would he cast a lost, but relatively benign, soul like me into eternal damnation and hell fire because I am slow learner about certain things (like Love)? If I were to die right now, according to you (and the Bible!??!) I would be going to hell, forever and ever. How could your God do this to me just because I ask questions, and don't adhere to your form of religious thought, though I do believe in what Jesus taught. I guess I'll go to hell, at least I'll be in good company: all Buddists, Jews, Hindus, and so on and so on.
I truly respect your views and opinions, but please try to open your mind up to different things.
Remember what Jesus said, Those who cast the first stone ..... Maybe those who pass such harsh judgments on others human beings will be the first ones in hell, who knows, no one really knows you know.
Peace and Love,
Vicki

Flash,

My answer still stands. It's your perspective and how you choose to see it. People often choose to rework reality, deny the facts, and throw up smoke screens in order to avoid personal conviction. God's Word IS clear and says that Satan is the author of confusion. If you want God to reveal His truth to you, all you have to do is pray. Seek Him. He is seeking for you.

Excuse my interruption, a question:

If God created and controls everything, why does Satan exist? Why a division of power?

Dear Vicki,



Scare you, it should! It's a terrifying thought. How could He? Why
forever? Why not just for a week or two or some determined length of
time as according to our sins?</P>



Let me start by saying that you have made two grave devaluations. The
first being your relationship, as an issue of being, as relating to
the almighty God. I flatly deny that you are a, &quot;relatively
benign being&quot;! You have free will. You have the knowledge of
good and evil. Most of all, you, personally, were made in the image
of God for the purpose of fellowship with God. That makes you
Special!!!! Part of being in the image of God is that you are
immortal. You are a spiritual being that is, just for a time, in this
physical world, in this physical flesh, in this thing where there is
time. Time is a creation of God. outside of this physical realm that
we live in, there is no such thing as time. There simply is forever.
I know, it defies the laws of physics. Physical laws are for the
physical realm That's where they stop.</P>



Let me show you something.</P>



Hell was not created for man</P>



To be quick about this, Satan and a third part of the angles in
Heaven rebelled against God. Satan's hope was to overthrow God and to
be God. Because they lived daily in the very presence of God, unlike
man, they were cast down to the earth and their punishment was made
to be very much in order with their sin. This punishment being Hell (
I'm also speaking about the lake of fire ), is where they will be
cast into.</P>



O.k., I'll bet you can see that one just fine. Where do humans come
into this mix? Why wouldn't God create a different punishment place
for us if we have to be punished? Why Hell? Why forever? Why not just
for a week or two or some determined length of time as according to
our sins?</P>



Be fore I answer these questions, Let's look at that second point of
devaluation. That point being your devaluation of the nature of God
and the nature of sin. God is perfect. We know this. If you have a
glass of pure water and add to it just one H<SUB>2</SUB>SO<SUB>4</SUB>
molecule, is it still a glass of pure water? Obviously not. In the
same way that the glass of water cannot interact with the H<SUB>2</SUB>SO<SUB>4</SUB>
molecule and still remain pure, God cannot interact with sin and
still remain pure. If you are of sin, which all men are, you are like H<SUB>2</SUB>SO<SUB>4</SUB>
to God. Somewhere there's got to be a barrier. Only, the barrier must
also be constructed of water or the glass of water is still not pure.
With water, this is impossible. Praise God that with Him, nothing is
impossible! Through the self sacrifice of the shedding of His own
Blood, seeing how He came to us in the form of a man, there is a
barrier that when you trust in Him, that is to say when you are
immersed in Him, your sins, the very H<SUB>2</SUB>SO<SUB>4</SUB> of
your being is covered. His Blood covers those that trust in His
Savior. He will see His Son when He looks at you on your day of
judgement and will therefore judge you as to what rewards you will
share in Christ with. If you choose to live in sin, you die in sin.
After which, you will be relegated to the heap of those that chose to
be discarded in sin before you. Before the first human sinner could
ever enter Hell, there was first a place set aside for the first
sinner. That sinner, Satan, was the father of sin. Remember, if you
are not for God, as He defines what is for Him, then, you are against
God. Sin is all that is contrary to God. Hell is that pile of sin set
forth for Satan. If you follow any way contrary to God, no matter how
wonderful the package may look on the outside, you place yourself
neatly on the top of that pile.</P>



Now, to answer those questions. If you recall, I said that outside of
this physical realm, there is no time. Once you are where you're
going, you are there. It's too late when you're locked down on death
row to think that you can be good enough to work you way out. Hell is
a great big refuse pile. That answerers the, &quot;Why forever?&quot;,
question. As far as, &quot;Why Hell and not someplace
different?&quot;, goes, I think that has been taken care of within
these past two posts. All sin is the same in the eyes of God. He
started a pile for sin. He does not need a new one. Surprise
Surprise!!! God does recognize that some have done more sins than
others. This goes to that,&quot;Why not just for a week or two or
some determined length of time as according to our sins?&quot;,
question. God make it known that of whom is given much, much is
expected. He shows in His word that the people that will have the
most sufferings in Hell will be those that had the most contact with,
the most revelation of, the most interaction with His Word and still
chose not to trust His Savior. There is no time there. There is,
however, an amount of suffering that can be awarded to a man, or even
a devil, I'm sure, because of his deeds and his knowledge of the
orientation of those deeds to God.</P>



God condemns no one to Hell</P>



In all that exists outside of this physical realm, God is there. The
only exception is that place He made for Satan and the angles that
decided to go with him. There comes a point where everyone must stand
in the presence of the almighty God and be judged. All those who
don't have an attorney ( Jesus ), stand to answer, point by point,
for a lifetime of sin against God. If, while you are given the chance
to choose ( while on Earth ), you choose not to go God's way, not to
prepare for the trial to come, but go where and do what you think
will be o.k. or with what looks and feels good to the flesh, then you
choose Hell of your own free will. When you stand in the presence of
God. If he asks you, &quot;Vicki, why should I let YOU into MY
Heaven?&quot;, what answers do you think He will accept? &quot;God,
I've been a really good person. I didn't do drugs. I never killed
anyone. I learned from most of my mistakes.&quot; -- and on and on
and on. The Bible says that all of a man's good deeds are as filthy
rags. Where is there a man who can say that his good deeds can amount
to the good deeds of Jesus Christ? That's the standard. God says that
if you trust in His Son, when He sees you in the court room, He will
see the Blood of His Son and accept you like you are His sinless Son.
God says that those who trust in Christ are joint heirs with Christ
in Heaven. We share in His riches. God also says that if you are not
for me, you are against me. You are either working or not working,
live or dead, on the right or on the left. The time to choose is now.
What defense are you going to have in that day? It's too late to
stand in the court on the day of the trial and say, &quot;I'll do it
the way I was supposed to from the start.&quot; It's too late to
stand in the court on the day of the trial and say, &quot;I need an
attorney ( Jesus )&quot;, when you knew long ago that this day of
judgement would come. We have a saying that a man who is his own
attorney has a fool for a client.</P>



I understand you possibly being upset with me, regarding your final
statement in your last post. However, I'm merely reporting the Good
News. I didn't make it. Jesus was a lot more direct and cutting to
the point than I could ever be. The judgement is not mine. It's Gods.
As He gives His children freedom in His truth and the power that
comes with it, He expects it to be spoken BOLDLY. God's Word
is sharper than any two edged sword. That means that anyone on the
receiving end is going to get cut. I'm thankful that it has cut me
and that it still cuts me today.</P>



With Love from someone that is actively praying that you entrust your
life to God's Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ.</P>



< !-- $MVD$:spaceretainer() -->&nbsp;</P>



P.S. - Jesus also taught that those that trust in Him are counted
amount the circumcised. The circumcised, of course, being the Jew.

Richilin, Lori, other Bible-beaters -

Hipocrisy abounds. When Flash was kind enough to post a selection of bible-bloopers, the immediate response was, and I quote, "who cares?". Later, a metaphoric reference to the earth was touted as proof that the bible was in fact perfect. These reasonings are mutually exclusive. For the sake of arguement at the very least, it would behoove you to pick a side of the fence and stay there.
The bible is not perfect (I won't even broach the legitimacy issue at this time), regardless of the intent with which it was written. You say man simply cannot grasp its full scope? Then why on earth would it be written in the first place. Would you write a code of conduct for a bacterium? Or for a grain of sand if that better fits your analogy?
Another question for the people constantly searching out new meanings in the bible; what tremendous arrogance do you have to think that you can re-interpret the works of your god merely to fit your current worldview?

FyreStar

Sometimes a book is just a book

JMitch,

You have a choice as weather or not to take another breath. You can do it or you can drown in the tub or do any number of things. None of these things was given so you could kill yourself. Yet, by your own choice, you can. Even more, you only have access to the things God first provided you. You can create no new matter with which to halt your next breath.

This exixtance belongs to God. The interaction He allows us to have through our own choices is often confused for power. For Satan, it is the same.

Does that help? I hope so.

You can contact me privately at isda@gte.net

Dear Isdaman:

No, I am not angry with you. Maybe I was the one passing some judgment? (Ha, wouldn't be surprised, learn, Vicki, learn!)

I realize I am not "relatively benign" in the eyes of God, I am an incredible human being with great potential to love and do great deeds in the world, and, of course, great potential for evil. But, maybe I am "relatively benign" compared to a Hitler or a Stalin?! Which brings me to one of the points you made in your last post: How can my sins be compared to that of a Hitler or a Stalin? Not that I am being arrogant (well, maybe a little, well, maybe a lot, I am human!), but my sins do seem benign in comparison to one who, of his own free will, was responsible for the death of over 10 million human beings. That's an awful lot of spilled blood. Wouldn't his sins "weigh" more than mine? Wouldn't this person have more to repent for than most of us?

Here is something to consider: Hitler was a vegetarian, abstained from sex his whole life and died a virgin, and led a rather monk-like existence. Do you think it is possible he was one of those incredibly evolved humans, like Jesus, but one who chose the dark side (like Lucifer) instead of one of light and love? And of his own free will choice, choose to bring hell to earth for a while, and because of his great power and level of evolvement, he was able to pull it off? And where would someone like this be now, how would someone like this repent, is it possible to repent, is there hope in the eyes of God for someone like that?

I do concede that Jesus is the Son of God, and spoke of Love and mercy. But maybe, just maybe, he trying to convey to us that you are a Son of God and I am a Daughter of God, and maybe, just maybe, we all have the same potential as he had, and he was instructing us how to achieve what he had achieved, do think this is a possibility? And do you think it possible that Jesus was not the only one in the history of human beings who "made it". I believe it is quite possible that there have other human beings who achieved what he had achieved.

Something else for you to consider: Christianity 1,700 years ago was quite different in form than it is today. As you know, through the centuries, much blood has been spilled in the name of Jesus. Do you think it a possibility that the Bible has changed form through the centuries to suit the needs of power- and money-hungry white men (and it was white men, not black men, or red men, or yellow men)? It became something they could use to give them justification to murder and to seize power and grow rich? If you and I could sneak into the heavily-guarded, underground vaults of the Vatican (and Area 51 is not the only place where deadly force is permitted!), I think we would find the pre-St. James Bible manuscripts, which I am positive would include scriptures and ideas which would be considered sacriligous to most Christians today. Do you think these things may be possible? Maybe we should be asking questions in order to get down to the pure form of Christianity and of what Jesus was trying to teach us?!?!

Anyway, I enjoy these exchanges, hope I am not scaring you off with all of this stuff!

Love and Peace to you, Vicki

Thank You Fyrestar!!! Excuse me if I am not
speaking correctly...LOL..hard day at work..
and already drank 5 beers on the way home LOL.. anyway... you brought out exactly what I have been trying to say!
Isn't it sooooooooo funny that no one will
answer any questions that goes against what
christians believe. They allllllllll want
to pass those comments off as if it were nothing! Just as long as they can get their
point across..that is all that matters. They
100% IGNORE anything which does otherwise!
Christians...yuck... leaves a bad taste in
your mouth..ya know????
I am just waiting for one to have the guts
enough to take on the issues brought up
by non-christians... instead of lame answers
like "but god's word is true" hahaha I say
prove it..but know what??? I haven't found
one that can!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nice post FyreStar. I agree pretty much with what you're saying. I have no idea why people even bother to debate the existence of a god, however. People either believe in god, or they don't. I've never known anyone to change their mind about the matter. The few people I know who have changed their minds never actually had full faith in their previous view in the first place. I personally don't believe in an entity called god, but I won't try to deny others their right to believe. I think the only thing which bothers me about Christianity is the tendency to interpret the Bible as literal truth. I've read through many of these posts, and there are lots of examples of contradictions within the Bible. I don't really care. The Bible is a set of stories which, if you think about them, are simply fables meant to teach lessons. The "truth" that it teaches is unimportant. One last thing, for those of you who choose to believe that the Bible is literal truth: it is well documented that the bible has been changed many times to suit the needs of corrupt pontifs, etc. I was even taught this in sunday school when my parents used to make me go. I'm not saying that you can't go on believing that the bible is pure and holy, I just thought that this is something that all of you should know. Like I said before, I don't believe in "God" per se, but I'm not going to argue over it with anyone. Anyone that wants to spit out a flame at me, go right ahead, but it's not going to change my mind, or anyone else's.

Dear Vicki,

I, too, am extremely pleased to have these exchanges. I Love to talk
about the great things God has done. One of the benefits is that
every time I do, I gain new insight. If I rested on what I studied
just a week ago, I'd become stale. You give me a needed challenge and
opportunity to examine the dealings of God with man. I thank you for
that. You in no way scare me off <IMG SRC="htp://www.exosci.com/ubb/icons/icon10.gif" WIDTH="15" HEIGHT="15" VSPACE="0" HSPACE="0" BORDER="0">.
I'll try to take this point by point. However, some of these points
may run together.

<FONT COLOR="#7F0000">Quote:</FONT>

<FONT COLOR="#7F0000">I realize I am not &quot;relatively benign&quot;
in the eyes of God, I am an incredible human being with great
potential to love and do great deeds in the world, and, of course,
great potential for evil. But, maybe I am &quot;relatively
benign&quot; compared to a Hitler or a Stalin?! Which brings me to
one of the points you made in your last post: How can my sins be
compared to that of a Hitler or a Stalin? Not that I am being
arrogant (well, maybe a little, well, maybe a lot, I am human!), but
my sins do seem benign in comparison to one who, of his own free
will, was responsible for the death of over 10 million human beings.
That's an awful lot of spilled blood. Wouldn't his sins
&quot;weigh&quot; more than mine? Wouldn't this person have more to
repent for than most of us?</FONT>

Answer:

If you've ever purchased pigs feet, ox tail, or spare ribs, I'm sure,
you're aware that the price of these goods is commensurate with the
weight. The only problem is that these foods have a low meat to bone
ratio. The interest of every shopper is how much meat there is.
Though the appearance may be large, the only reason you pay is
because of the actual meat. The value of meat vs. bone, throughout
the whole item, can only be determined when it is examined under the
scrutiny of your pearly white teeth. Before that, all you have is the
outward appearance that looks like a massive hunk of flesh. Sin is
the same way. Outwardly, to man, it appears to be greater or smaller.
The superstructure beneath is not visible. Only through the judgement
of God's pearly whites can its value be determined. Jesus said that
the greatest commandment is to love the LORD God with all your heart
and your neighbor as yourself. If we'd do this, we'd commit no sin.
What Jesus gave us was the benchmark that God judges by. All sins are
against God and are a sign of a lack of PERFECT LOVE for God. Hitler
is a wonderful example. For man, he is the benchmark of what it is to
be an evil human. He obviously committed plenty of sins. The key is
how those sins relate to the benchmark of God. For man, murder, rape,
homosexuality, and violence top the list of the worst sins. God's
only allowance in sin is how much you Loved compared to how much you
knew how to Love. The kind of things to be found on God's top sins
list are things like not helping your brother when you knew he needed
it and you had the compactly to, bearing false witness, and not
forgiving others knowing that God has forgiven you. Seems upside down
doesn't it? God's emphasis isn't on the flesh. Man's is. God's point
is how it relates to Love. Therefore, someone exposed to God's Word
all his life, staying in the church, reading the Bible, putting on a
show of outward Love, while, in reality, having never surrendered his
life to Jesus Christ, would no doubt suffer, in Hell, greater than
even Hitler. Neither the outward actions of the most righteous
looking man or the most evil looking man matters to God. What He
wants to get to is the heart of the matter and how it relates to
Love. That's not an excuse to murder and steel. God says that every
man is born with His Truth written on his heart. The big question is
just like with Nixon, Regan, and Clinton, &quot; What did you know
and when did you know it?&quot;

<FONT COLOR="#7F0000">Quote:</FONT>

<FONT COLOR="#7F0000">Here is something to consider: Hitler was a
vegetarian, abstained from sex his whole life and died a virgin, and
led a rather monk-like existence. Do you think it is possible he was
one of those incredibly evolved humans, like Jesus, but one who chose
the dark side (like Lucifer) instead of one of light and love? And of
his own free will choice, choose to bring hell to earth for a while,
and because of his great power and level of evolvement, he was able
to pull it off? And where would someone like this be now, how would
someone like this repent, is it possible to repent, is there hope in
the eyes of God for someone like that?</FONT>

Answer:

I think we just covered the outward works of man in the eyes of God.
The package that man produces always says says Speed, Power, Fame,
Fortune, Righteousness, and Romance. Once you expose the inside
to light, all you get is the same old lump of coal. Hitler was no
more than a man blinded by the evil lusts of his own heart. Those
that followed him, followed in kind after the evil lusts of their own
hearts only adding to the appearance of power. Yet, they were just as
week as you and me. None of them had the power over death that
belongs only to Jesus. The distinction is that Jesus is God. I refer
you back to when I said, &quot;God did something incredible!!!!! It's
hard to comprehend. All I can say is that God is not limited by the
same physical laws that man is. Ya see, when God sent Jesus through
the virgin Mary, He impregnated her with Himself. He never stopped
being God. He was still everywhere. He just, in a way, extended
Himself. He came and He served us.&quot; God manifests Himself to us
as three distinct persons, if you will, God the Father, God the Son,
and God the Holy Spirit/Ghost. In each He reveals a different aspect
of Himself. Jesus didn't have to achieve any special level of
enlightenment as a man. God is the only light. Satan would have us to
believe that we could achieve light of our own power. Man, being ever
eager to believe anything that places man at the center of all
things, is quick to jump on this as his truth. Hay, but, doesn't that
exclude Satan's ambition as wanting to be the center of all worship?
You know. He wanted to be God. No. Not at all. I answered a question
for JMitch. Here it is with the answer I gave to follow:

Q:

If God created and controls everything, why does Satan exist? Why
a division of power?

A:

You have a choice as weather or not to take another breath. You
can do it or you can drown in the tub or do any number of things.
None of these things was given so you could kill yourself. Yet, by
your own choice, you can. Even more, you only have access to the
things God first provided you. You can create no new matter with
which to halt your next breath.

This existence belongs to God. The interaction He allows us to
have through our own choices is often confused for power. For Satan,
it is the same.

Satan understands this. He's one pretty smart dude. God's Word says
that Satan was the first liar. It also says that Satan is the author
of confusion. If you choose to go by what is contrary to God, you
choose to go Satan's way. Though he gives choices of which way to go,
they're all still his choices. Man is the one fooled into thinking he
has power. Everything Satan does is a weak copy of what God has done
-- only twisted. Jesus offered us REAL POWER,... POWER, in His name,
even over devils.

Wonderfully, there is hope. There's hope even for Hitler's of this
world as long as they are alive in this world. Remember the trial
example I gave you. This life is the pre-trial confinement. If you
don't get an attorney now, don't bother asking for one when you get
to court. The judge won't hear it. Don't bother saying, &quot;I'll
give all the money back. I'll rebuild the homes I burned&quot;, after
the judgement has been passed down. The judge won't hear it. God
promises that He will forgive ALL of your sins if you repent ( turn
away from ) of you sins and trust in Him that the Savior He sent has
come to Save you, has paid the price for your sins, and is risen from
the dead. He will do the same for you. First, He will make you
spiritually alive. You will be in fellowship with God. He will send
His Holy Spirit ( the Comforter ) to live within you. You heart will
be His temple. Secondly, when you separate from this flesh, you get a
promotion. He will take you home to everlasting Life. All others go
to everlasting Death. Between that time of Salvation ( When you
repent and turn to God ) and the day you separate from this flesh,
you may be called upon to suffer like Jesus suffered so as to advance
the Kingdom of God and spread His Glory to men. The catch is that you
have to trust in Him while you have time. He also promises to reward
you for all your sufferings in His name. Again, even in rewards, His
concern is where your heart was at. Did you do good, did you suffer,
did you abstain just to glorify yourself? Or, did you do it to
Glorify God?

<FONT COLOR="#7F0000">Quote:</FONT>

<FONT COLOR="#7F0000">I do concede that Jesus is the Son of God, and
spoke of Love and mercy. But maybe, just maybe, he trying to convey
to us that you are a Son of God and I am a Daughter of God, and
maybe, just maybe, we all have the same potential as he had, and he
was instructing us how to achieve what he had achieved, do think this
is a possibility? And do you think it possible that Jesus was not the
only one in the history of human beings who &quot;made it&quot;. I
believe it is quite possible that there have other human beings who
achieved what he had achieved. </FONT>

Answer:

God promises to chastise His own. For others, He says, there will
come a time when, basically, His patience will ware thin and He will
leave them to the lusts of their own hearts. His children, He
promises, He will never forsake and no one can take them from Him.
There is a clear division. Again, you are either for Him or Against Him.

Warning: God reserves the right to determine what constitutes
what is &quot;FOR&quot; and what is &quot;AGAINST&quot; Him.

Those, and only those, He says are for Him, He calls His children.
All others, in the day of judgement, will He tell to get away from
Him because He did not know them. All His children are joint heirs in
Christ Jesus. All His children get to speak in the power and
authority of their Father. The instruction and demonstration of Jesus
is how to have fellowship with God. It all comes, surprisingly
enough, through a FREE gift of something none of us could ever afford
to pay on our own or even together. The atrocity of sin against God
is more mighty that we know. God's Word affirms that there is a way
that seems right to a man but leads to Death. His way is narrow. Most
will go the wrong way because the way to destruction is so very wide
and easy to take. Man must meet God on God's terms. He has no need or
obligation to make different ways to Him. All sin is of the the same
stuff. Just like matter must obey the laws of matter or it is not of
matter, man must obey the laws of God or he is not of God. Therefore,
there is only one division; for or against. Following in kind, there
is only one redemption, one Savior, one name under Heaven by which
men are Saved -- Jesus Christ.

<FONT COLOR="#7F0000">Quote:</FONT>

<FONT COLOR="#7F0000">Something else for you to consider:
Christianity 1,700 years ago was quite different in form than it is
today. As you know, through the centuries, much blood has been
spilled in the name of Jesus. Do you think it a possibility that the
Bible has changed form through the centuries to suit the needs of
power- and money-hungry white men (and it was white men, not black
men, or red men, or yellow men)? It became something they could use
to give them justification to murder and to seize power and grow
rich? If you and I could sneak into the heavily-guarded, underground
vaults of the Vatican (and Area 51 is not the only place where deadly
force is permitted!), I think we would find the pre-St. James Bible
manuscripts, which I am positive would include scriptures and ideas
which would be considered sacriligous to most Christians today. Do
you think these things may be possible? Maybe we should be asking
questions in order to get down to the pure form of Christianity and
of what Jesus was trying to teach us?!?!</FONT>

Answer:

The only difference in Christianity from the day of Pentecost to
today is the trust that the average Christian is really giving to
Jesus. It's a sad shame when you have a 40 billion horse power engine
and you never get out of first gear. All of His children have access
to the same Father, the same power, and the same Glory. What is
lacking, sometimes, is the trust that He really is there as a
comforter, a friend, a father, a pillar, and a confidante. It's kind
of like not trusting that your parents will understand or help you
through something even though they have in the past.

The Bible has never changed. We have more historical documentation of
the Bible than any other ancient texts put together. No one questions
Plato or Socrates. Historical evidence of the Bible dwarfs these.
From the Dead Sea Scrolls to now, the Bible is equal. Men have tried
to change, suppress, abuse, and misuse it. Satan, even, has quoted
from it. He tried to tempt and trick Jesus with it. Man will always
make excuses for himself. With a hammer I can build or I can murder.
God will take vengeance for those that misuse His Word and never
repent. Remember, He's long suffering. He's still giving a chance for
everyone to repent. Besides that, there's a whole eternity in which
to honor the righteous or repay the unrighteous.

When God chose Abram, he was not one of God's people. God had no
people. Abram trusted God. God made him the father of His people and
gave him the name of Abraham.

The pure form of Christianity is to Love God with all of our hearts
and our neighbors as our selves. There's nothing left to search for.
This task is enough to be concerned with seeing how we never seem to
achieve it. There's nothing left to search for.

I do have some questions for you. have you surrendered you life to
Christ? Have you repented of your sins and accepted God's plan for
Salvation? If not, why? What's stopping you from trusting God right
now? What will you say in that day of judgement?

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Feel free to contact me privately at isda@gte.net . Come to Apostle Creed Online (http://welcome.to/apostlecreed) for Christian web developement.

Flash,

I engaged you. Does that count for nothing? Am I lame for doing so not on your terms? I will not bother trying to prove God in words ( argument ) but in deeds. I can no more change your mind than I could change the color of night. I'm sorry, you are not the center of it all. God's Word will Live on and be just as true weather you accept it or not. No one has to accept the fact that high voltage wires can kill you. You're just as free to test your views through to the end.

You do seem quite intent on drawing someone in to argue with you? Why is that? What are you trying to hide?

Isdaman,
hahaha No, I DO realize that I am not the
center of it all...god, I don't want to be.
All I wanted was for someone to answer
the questions..not talk around them. That
seems to be what almost every christian here does.
If you sense that I am trying to draw someone
out just to argue..man, wrong again. I just
get frustrated...
What am I trying to hide????????? LOL
Come on! Just because I am wanting answers
doesn't mean I am trying to hide shit. I
have nothing to hide. LOL

Flash,

I understand your frustration. I apologize for not taking into account your previous efforts. As much time as I wish I had to answer each and every last point, I just don't have it. That's why I sent you and answer that grouped all your points together. I've learned to boil things down and get to the meat of the matter. All of your points, being of the same root, only required me to produce one answer. Here it is so that you can re-examine it.

Flash, a quick answer to you points is that your perspective is false in every case. If John & Paul climbed a tree and I told Steve that John climbed a tree and got some fruit, while, Mary told Sally that John & Paul climbed a tree, And Tom told Jay that Paul climbed a tree and laughed, we would still all be talking about the same event. Even when someone is not spoken of ( angles at the tomb ), it does not mean the lack of the other presence. If your right eye and your left eye could see the exact same picture from the exact same perspective, God would have given you only one. He gives us different aspects of His Glory through different men. He only loads he story with what is of value to that perspective. Try the trick where you look through a cardboard tube with one eye while looking at the open palm of your hand with your other eye and about 6-10 inches away from your face. Can you really see through your hand? Both eyes tell the truth. It's the man perceiving that fails to connect the dots properly. God's word is without flaws!!!!! Jesus Loves you and there is Salvation from Sin. Read it again for the first time.

Let me know if there was some other point that you were trying to make. As you can see, I'm new here, but, I try to engage everyone as deeply as I can and see fit. I will not simply chuck you aside. I respect the fact that you are searching.


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Feel free to contact me privately at isda@gte.net . I'm a Christian Web Developer. I run Apostle Creed Online (http://welcome.to/apostlecreed).

A thumbs up from Isdaman????? Wow. LOL
Alright... I just believe that the bible
shouldn't have soooooooo many contradictions.
Thing is.. you have to admit...there are
tons. Why do you think you do not have answers for it? See- what I don't get is
you and others STILL believe! Why????
If I talked nothing but contradictions all
the time wouldn't you wonder??? Something
doesn't add up. one and one and one is three.. but not when reading the bible.
Why wouldn't god talk to everyone if he
is no respector of persons???
There is more proof that god doesn't exist
than him existing. So what does that tell
you?

Flash,

I typed incorrectly. I have the answers. Time to take on each and every last one is what I don't have. My GOOF! Give me three of your best shots. The truth is easy.

------------------
Feel free to contact me privately at isda@gte.net . I'm a Christian Web Developer. I run Apostle Creed Online (http://welcome.to/apostlecreed).

ISDN,


You will agree that Jesus was only killed on earth one time, right? Yet the 4 conflicting reports exist. If there are 4 conflicting reports in the bible (even though the word of god is perfect) bible's description of the event is imperfect(according to man's view and since no man can know the mind of god we are forced to take man's view). That means there is great likelyhood that all of you have mis-interpreted the bible(and judging by the different denominational beliefs this appears to be true). So if the Bible's intent is to spread the word of God(good news), and it is ambiguous how can that be perfect(or perhaps it was not meant for man, but for someone who can accurately decipher it)??

The bible does describe many other events, from which many people conform thier religious beliefs. Who (other than God) is to say if some, any or all of the infomation is incorrect by your interpretation.

According to you, God told, an imperfect being(human) to write down something. If those that actually observed an even cannot accurately write it down then why would someone who heard the word of God be able to write it down accurately? So why would you use the Bible to guide the direction of your life and as a resource for what Jesus(God) said if what your reading may or may not have anything to do with the will of God???

If the bible is potetially chalked full of perfect "Mis-interpretations" and people base their religon upon it, what does this suggest??

Sorry, I meant ISDAman not ISDN(man) (sorry didn't pay much attention to the moniker and made assumption since you were web designer)

Blower,

Thank you. I must be moving up in the world. People are paying attention to me now :). Please, make a defined accusation regarding differences in this story. I will answer to it. This is important. We both view the same work through two different minds. Without a well defined point of interaction, we'll just end up dancing around the answer you are really looking for. Your assumption with my name was not your first. Prior to the press of even the first key, without having examined your target, you engaged your target. Reconnaissance is key. I've left many exact statements of my faith on this bulletin board. Moreover, I'm a cooperative target. For you, Blower, I'll be happy to recount the glory of the foundation of my faith. As pertaining to the aspect of the inspired Word of God, I affirm whole heatedly that the Bible is God Breathed. Just as with Flash, I ask you for three of your most damning points. Please, be exact. Faith in the truth is easy. Faith in anything else is a tireless and writhing ball of frustration. The Bible is my guide in life because it is without flaw or contradiction. It is Alive. Jesus is the Living Word of God. Jesus is the risen Savior. As you can see, we are in two different worlds. That's why I asked you to give me a well defined point. I do want to answer your questions.

P.S. - Thanks for showing what appears to be a showing of Jesus as God in your post.

------------------
Feel free to contact me privately at isda@gte.net . I'm a Christian Web Developer. I run Apostle Creed Online (http://welcome.to/apostlecreed).

ISDAMAN,
AWWWWWWW come on man!! You say the bible
does not have contradictions????????????
What the heck was the ones I wrote in the
last post that had all the scriptures about
that you KEEP SAYING is due to others views.
I do not mean to sound like a bitch...
but really..it sounds as if you are 100%
delusional!!!!!!! ALL the last scriptures
I put on the last post contradict!
yet, you make it out as if it is due to man!
If this is suppose to be god's word..then
WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY doesn't it add up????
See... I bet money that you will not or
cannot answer that!!! No one can!

Flash,

Not to hurt you, but, it does not add up because you can't add. Give me three of you most powerful and COMPLETE complaints and I will dissect them for you. Otherwise you are simply venting.

To start your mind to rolling, look at this.
In Acts Chapter 13 Verse 25 Paul said, "And as John fulfilled his course, he said, Whom think ye that I am? I am not he. But, behold, there cometh one after me, whose shoes of his feet I am not worthy to loose."

In John Chapter 1 Verse 27 John the Baptist said, "He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose."

Mark 1: 7 says, "And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose."

You tell me where there is a flaw or contradiction! I thought you expressed that you didn't want to argue. You seem to be yelling and making no point at all. Also, I have responded to your post under, "The true question of religion and god".

---------------------------------------------All Verses Excerpted from The Complete Multimedia Bible -- King James Version
Copyright (c) 1994 Compton's NewMedia, Inc.

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Feel free to contact me privately at isda@gte.net . I'm a Christian Web Developer. I run Apostle Creed Online (http://welcome.to/apostlecreed).

To all

If you read up on the history of the origin of what is our Bible today, and take into account the many, many times it has been translated from the earliest scraps, scrolls and manuscripts, to the present editions, and then compare not the verbatim word for word or letter for letter consistency, but the integrity of the message, it is difficult not to understand the Divine and Inspired nature of It`s message.

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You throw the sand into the wind, and the wind blows it back again ...