Some logic from a Palestinian Muslim, and almost the exact thing that I believe would be needed to bring permanent peace:

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/77520

I am a Palestinian Muslim living in Ireland and I must speak out against the war against Israel which is bringing war down on Muslim heads in return.
Take another look the map of Israel.
It is a tiny sliver of land been the Mediterranean and the Jordan River.
If Israel was not militarily powerful holding back the enormous military forces of Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Saudi Arabia would be simply impossible. In a matter of hours Israel would be invaded if armies broke through the defenses of the Golan Heights or crossed the Jordan River valley, encompassing the Dead Sea, the lowest point on earth, or swept through the Negev and surrounded Al Quds and Tel Aviv from three sides.

At present Hezbollah are firing hundreds of rockets into Israel everyday while Hamas fire their homemade rockets from Gaza in the south and the suicide bombers attack from the West Bank.
The oppression of the Palestinians is immense but it only exists because


Palestinians will not make peace with Israel by abandoning violence for good.
But many Muslims I know especially Palestinians like myself still dream of driving the Jews into the sea and destroying Israel for good.
As long as Muslims continued to hate the Jews so then the Israelis will always behave as if they are under siege. Because they ARE under siege!

At present Hezbollah are firing hundreds of rockets into Israel everyday while Hamas fire their homemade rockets from Gaza
After Israel lobbed over 11,000 missiles .
Noura Erakat Rocks O'Reilly ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtsbZ8LZ0m8&eurl=)
“I don’t think that our viewers know that Israel actually occupied Lebanon for 18 years and that in the past 6yrs years alone it’s launched 11,782 missiles over the Lebanese border. In comparison, Hizbullah has launched 100 missiles over the border. Did Americans know that? Did they know???”You want peace , cit off all aid to Israel hand back to the Palestinians what was taken namely their land , and for America to make peace with Iran .

After Israel lobbed over 11,000 missiles .
You want peace , cit off all aid to Israel hand back to the Palestinians what was taken namely their land , and for America to make peace with Iran .
Well said and eloquently written.

After Israel lobbed over 11,000 missiles .
You want peace , cit off all aid to Israel hand back to the Palestinians what was taken namely their land , and for America to make peace with Iran .

Hi Brian,

Counting missiles is like counting bullets during WW2, and I'm trying to put 11,000 missiles into context. Is this implying Israel fires rockets at their "neighbors" for no reason.

Also, can you present a timeline of occupation of the land now considered Israel?

Seems to me to be a small piece of land, what is so bad about Israeli people being there anyway?

I really dont know these answers (so I'm not being facetious--if thats the right word :bugeye: )

I'm kind of neutral but really think people should use their time other ways than killing eachother.

Take Care

Well said and eloquently written.
thanks I also enjoy reading your posts thay also are well written
Hi Brian,

Counting missiles is like counting bullets during WW2, and I'm trying to put 11,000 missiles into context.
Hi John
The fact is Israel claims this war was started in order to stop Hezbollah firing its rockets into Israel , the plain fact is that Israel has daily attacked Lebanon for the last 6 years .Its the same garbage propaganda Israel employed against HAMAS rocket attacks , the fact was Israel was daily lobbing artillery shells into Gaza .
It is Lebanon, not Israel, that faces a threat to its existence in this war (http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/comment/0,,1840842,00.html)
As in Gaza - which has been hit by 12,000 artillery shells over the past six weeks - Israel is creating a system of free fire and buffer zones, where it will be free to act in response to any "provocation".

Is this implying Israel fires rockets at their "neighbors" for no reason.Israel sees Lebanon as a threat to its postion of influence with America , Lebanon is the most Westernized of the mideast nations with a large Christian population and would make the ideal bridge between the West and the mideast .
Also, can you present a timeline of occupation of the land now considered Israel?
The timeline began when European Jews in 1890 discovered the Jewish version of the Christian manifest destiny , a religious belief that Jews inherited the land that was then Palestine as a gift from God . 50 years of immigration and in 1948 Israel was created . That fact is all real Jews died out 2000 years ago Jews now living in Israel are simply converts to the faith . The sorry news is that to accomadate this dream 5 million Palestinians to this day suffer oppression .
Timeline (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/israel/timeline/timeline1.html)
Seems to me to be a small piece of land, what is so bad about Israeli people being there anyway?
And what is so bad about Palestinians wanting to return to their ancetsral lands ? Im all for Jews and Palestinians living in ONE nation not 2 states . However it is impossible as the philosophy of Zionism dictates Israel must be a Jewish State , and that is the title of Israel the Jewish state .
I really dont know these answers (so I'm not being facetious--if thats the right word :bugeye: )
I understand and I appreciate you asking questions .
I'm kind of neutral but really think people should use their time other ways than killing eachother.
Remember one thing Palestinians did not start this war they are a totally defenceless population hereded up into refugee camps and massed into tiny enclaves of poverty and oppression , never lose sight that they are fellow human beings pushed to the wall John .
Take Care
You also John .

Permanent peace:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,915725,00.html
An Israeli army bulldozer crushed an American peace activist to death in the Gaza Strip yesterday in what witnesses described as a deliberate killing. Rachel Corrie, 23, died as she attempted to prevent the military destroying homes in the Rafah refugee camp, one of the most dangerous in the occupied territories.

"She was standing on top of a pile of earth," said another activist, Richard Purssell, who was a few feet away. "The driver cannot have failed to see her. As the blade pushed the pile, the earth rose up. Rachel slid down the pile. It looks as if she got her foot caught. The driver didn't slow down; he just ran over her. Then he reversed the bulldozer back over her again. She was very courageous."
Other activists said the bulldozer had approached from several metres away and that Ms Corrie, who was wearing a brightly coloured jacket, was waving and they were shouting at the driver to stop but he ignored them.

Witnesses said another protester had been slightly injured about half an hour earlier when the same bulldozer knocked him into barbed wire.

Ms Corrie was one of eight foreign volunteers - four from the US and four from Britain - with the International Solidarity Movement (ISM) seeking to block house demolitions.

Three more people in masks came into the room. They blindfolded me, put a hood over my head… they kicked and slapped me. They beat me with a plastic pipe and whatever they could get their hands on. I couldn't see anything because I was blindfolded. I just felt the blows. That lasted ten to fifteen minutes… Later they stood me on a chair and told me to grab a pipe that was fixed to the wall. They removed the chair from under me and left me hanging in the air, with my handcuffed hands holding onto the pipe and the weight of my body, hanging in the air, drawing my hands downwards. They left the room. - Ismail Sabatin, 17 years old.

So begins Stolen Youth, a book about Israel's detention of Palestinian children that will be released in March 2004. Isma'il Sabatin's story, the authors of the book remind us, is paralleled by the stories of the "nearly 2,000 Palestinian children from the Occupied Palestinian Territories whom the Israeli authorities have arrested over the last three years." Some spend a few days in detention - detained, beaten, and released. Others spend years there.

At any given time there are probably hundreds of Palestinian children in detention, with some 350 in detention at the beginning of 2003. In 2002 one-fifth were between 13-14, the rest between 15-17. The military and police tend to target children between 12-17, but have arrested children as young as nine.

Children are arrested "at checkpoints, on the street, or at their homes by heavily armed Israeli soldiers in the middle of the night. The soldiers take them to detention centres in Israeli settlements or military camps… the children are interrogated. This almost always involves some form of torture or abuse, including sleep and food deprivation, threatening language, beatings with heavy batons, being punched and kicked, as well as being tied in painful and contorted positions for long periods of time…"

After interrogation, children are brought before a military 'court' that operates under a different set of laws than those that apply for Israelis. Where Israelis come under Israeli civil law, Palestinians fall under military orders. Whereas Israeli children, including Israeli children in settlements in the occupied territories, get child-specific courts and procedures, Palestinian children are tried by the same Israeli military courts and judges as try Palestinian adults. The rules of evidence and procedure are such that it does not make sense to call the institutions that decide where to incarcerate Palestinian children 'courts' at all. When these 'courts' have made their decisions, most Palestinian children are incarcerated in Israel itself, with children of 16-17 treated as adults by Israel's military laws (according to these laws, Israeli children are children if they are under 18, in accordance with the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, but Palestinian children are adults if they 16 or over). Visiting the children in prison is impossible for family members, given the permanent closure of the Occupied Territories that existed long before the territories were physically walled in as they are now, with the Gaza Strip being surrounded by electric fence and the West Bank nearly surrounded by the apartheid wall. But not content to simply wall and fence Palestinians in on all sides, Israel proceeds to round them up and take them off to prisons inside Israel.

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=4970

“One morning, a Palestinian boy was leaving to go to school and was surrounded by five adult male settlers, one of which put a battery operated power drill to his chest,�? Stanley said. “This is a tactic they’ve been using against the children in the neighborhood.�?

The boy survived and was not hospitalized, but the psychological impact of the act, Stanley suggested, breeds fear in the neighborhood’s dwindling Palestinian population.

------

“A female Israeli settler used a rock to pry open a young Palestinian boy’s mouth. She used the rock to grind down the child’s molars,�? Stanley said.

http://www.ww4report.com/node/1868

In February and March of 2001 I went to the Palestinian territories as a freelance reporter, traveling alone throughout Gaza and the West Bank. I saw tragedy and devastation far beyond what was being reported in the American media; I saw communities destroyed, ancient orchards razed, croplands plowed under. I saw children who had been shot in the stomach, in the back, in the head. I still see them.

I saw people convulsing and writhing in pain from a mysterious poison gas that had been lobbed at them; they said it felt like there were knives in their stomach.3 I talked to men who had been tortured.4

I watched as a mother wept for her small son, and I took pictures of his spilled blood. I watched a son grieve for his mother, killed on her way home from the market on a day that I was told was the Muslim equivalent of the day before Christmas, or Passover, and I thought of my own son, the same age.

I listened to old people who described the start of this holocaust – over fifty years ago, at the end of an earlier one. They described what it was like when three-quarters of your entire population is ethnically cleansed from their homes and land, children dying along the roadside while aircraft shell the fleeing families. They told of dozens of massacres of entire villages, and I’ve since read accounts by Israeli soldiers, published in Israeli publications, of how they raped the women, and then killed them, of how they used sticks to crush the skulls of children.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/media/sides.html

OK never have peace Sam continue to hate.

A bad peace is worse than war - Tacitus

And that is what has been happening for the last 57 years, do you notice that samcdkey is from India and yet has a massive hate for Jews, she hasn't forgiven or forgotten, what I don't know but when you read her post the Israelis can be exterminated and it would be fine with her.

lol sam and i chat on yahoo. she doesnt hate jews!
in fact, she and i get along better than most of the other folks i chat with on here!

I can tell that Buffalo lives in a black or white world.

I come from a multicultural country and I only hate extremists and morons.

Extremists because they devalue humanity and morons because you cannot get through to them.

Unfortunately the two often occur together.

Then why is she so one sided in her condemnation of Israel, and why when she respond to anything it is always the Israeli that are wrong, when I Israeli children are kill by the indiscriminate launching of Hezbullah rocket nothing is said but the Israeli using precision guided weapons in a effort to minimize casualties are condemned for children who hezbullah have on the target zone with them, because they choose to fight in this fashion, the vast majority of causalities are because of the method of combat chosen by Hezbullah, they have chosen to make it a house to house fight.

Ah but I can tell the difference between the policies of the Israeli government and Israeli people. I admire the Israeli women who have been fighting for the Palestinian refugees and who are trying very hard to make their plight known.

I also admire the Jews (like the Muslims) who stand up against the extremism in their community. I am not blind to faults on either side and since BR is listing all the faults on one side, it is natural that I should complete the picture with the faults on the other side.

All said and done there is NO justification for civilians being killed by either side, but the damages by the IDF are far greater. In addition, one would expect higher standards from a progressive well-to-do country than from an organized militia.

Thirdly, in the course of looking up material for this forum, I have become aware that the atrocities against the Palestinian refugees are far greater than what I had originally known. It is Lebanon multiplied by 57 years. A terrible miscarriage of justice that the world has been ignoring.

As I have said before elsewhere on this forum.
There are no bad people, only bad governments.

.

...Extremists because they devalue humanity and morons because you cannot get through to them.

Unfortunately the two often occur together.
sounds like Genji and Foley fit into that category :D

samcdkey,

Buffalo is right, your condemnation does seem to focus mainly on israel in this whole conflict and you seem to feel more sympathy towards the dead lebanese civilians than the israeli ones.

sounds like Genji and Foley fit into that category :D

samcdkey,

Buffalo is right, your condemnation does seem to focus mainly on israel in this whole conflict and you seem to feel more sympathy towards the dead lebanese civilians than the israeli ones.

Do you feel the Israeli actions are right and are conducive to peace and stability in the region?

Let me see your objectivity.

samcdkey, and I don't?, Sam I have friend across the racial spectrum, and we have many discussions on world events, and if you hate extremist how about pounding Hezbullah, if they aren't extremist please explain who you think are extremist, you never even tried to answer the original post you just came back with a list of thing that continue the hatred, the man I posted and quoted is a Palestinian, who admitted that yes , he like his Palestinian Brothers would like to see Israel gone, but for him reality has set in and he now realizes that maybe it time to build and not tear down, let the children grow up and not be use as a human bomb, that peace is preferable to war, you are part of the problem sitting on the side lines cheering for the Palestinians to never forgive or forget, your post show that, when have you posted a full condemnation of the thing that Hezbullah, Hamas, Fatah, and the countless other blood feud driven terrorist? When Have You Really Called For Peace, all I ever see from you is another post of some supposed atrocity committed by Israel, Propaganda, and doctored pictures, this is finally coming out that the terrorist are staging these events and so much the better if the can have fresh blood for the picture, but if necessary they will make it up. Please explain why this piece of non-human trash should be so important to Hezbullah that the kill more Israelis and Kidnap 2, to try to get his freedom, this is part of what set off this last fight, tell me about a man who would kill a father in front of his 4 year old daughter, and then to save on bullets used his rifle to kill the 4 year old girl, tell me, or can you that cold?


Hizbollah says release of murderer who shot father and smashed ...
Samir Kuntar led the terrorists who infiltrated Israeli territory from Lebanon ... just two, were killed in the attack along with policeman Eliyahu Shahar, ...
http://www.militantislammonitor.org/article/id/2133

A Brother Hopes Anew for Man Long Held by Israel
By Israeli accounts, his brother took the girl and her father hostage, then shot the father and killed the girl with his rifle butt as police closed in. ...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...0401614_pf.html

Buffalo you are henceforth consigned to the e slash m category.

As usual the finnnal argument of a female who has been proven to be irrational in her arguements and condemnations.

Buffalo you are henceforth consigned to the e slash m category.
maybe i have some sort of mental retardation...but i dont know what this is.

can i be in this club too? :D

or is it a bad thing?

maybe i have some sort of mental retardation...but i dont know what this is.

can i be in this club too? :D

or is it a bad thing?

The clues are in a previous posting :D

samcdkey:

Do you feel the Israeli actions are right and are conducive to peace and stability in the region?

Do you feel that Hezbullah's actions are right and are conductive to peace and stability in the region?

Thank you Samy, I will wear the title proudly, as it show that in the end you can't justify your view, so you try to write me off, but I don't write off so easily.

“A female Israeli settler used a rock to pry open a young Palestinian boy’s mouth. She used the rock to grind down the child’s molars,�? Stanley said.

unfortunately good people like Sam have been fed so much hate when they lived in the M.E. they will tend to believe disgusting lies like these ones, while looking at Israeli acts of kindness as "strange unusual occurrences"

No I was just replying to BR's propaganda with some of my own. There are an equal amount of sob stories on both sides. Fortunately I'm not a fan of Lifetime television. :D

PS but the story on the American peacekeeper and the Palestinian children does check out.

equal amount of sob stories on both sides
although i am biased here, from my own experience this is simply not the case
"cold-blooded atrocities" was invented by the "Balazdeenians"

story on the American peacekeeper and the Palestinian children does check out
how does it check out?
1) source
2) context (if this disgusting thing is actually true, what exactly did that kid do? maybe he did something worse to her kid? i remember a story of 13 year old piece-of-shittians trying to murder an 8 year old "settler" boy, and that boy's father catching the 13 year old.. instead of beating the shit out of that scum, or even smacking him, all he did was grab his hand and release him)

equal amount of sob stories on both sides
although i am biased here, from my own experience this is simply not the case
"cold-blooded atrocities" was invented by the "Balazdeenians"


Perhaps you should read some non-Israeli non-Palestinian sources.
I'll see if I can find some.

story on the American peacekeeper and the Palestinian children does check out
how does it check out?
1) source
2) context (if this disgusting thing is actually true, what exactly did that kid do? maybe he did something worse to her kid? i remember a story of 13 year old piece-of-shittians trying to murder an 8 year old "settler" boy, and that boy's father catching the 13 year old.. instead of beating the shit out of that scum, or even smacking him, all he did was grab his hand and release him)


The American peacekeeper was published in newspapers when it happened and the sources were the other of the 8 US/UK delegation plus her own previous experiences which she had written about before she died. If you google her name you can find the information.

The other, about the Palestinian children, there are reports from the Israeli women who keep a lookout at the checkpoints and there is a lot of material on the incarceration and beating of children at the human rights websites. Check any one of them and you will find the information.

As for the sob stories, any one who makes a story out of an incident is obviously using emotional arguments to justify a stand. As soon as I read, "it was a dark and stormy night... I skip the articles. I'm familiar with this strategy used in India by religious extremists to justify violence. They insert dialogue and create a scene to make it visual. Gah!

samcdkey

No I was just replying to BR's propaganda with some of my own

And the propaganda that I was spreading was for a try at peace, and what was your answer to bring up a bunch of propaganda to stir the feeling and continue the killing, the gentleman who's letter I posted said what you said very early in these discussion, it is time to stop the killing from their side, he has recognized that until the Israelis don't feel threatened they will feel that they are under siege, the way to peace is to take the path of peace, to have peace you have to let the past go, we did it with Germany and Japan, and there is peace between us, name a country that we defeated in war that in the end we haven't become allies with, the same could happen between Israel and the Palestinians, I find it very funny that I who has lead a life as a military man is calling in a more active manner than you a supposed women of peace, time and again I have called for real peace which means no one shooting at the Israeli and then the Israelis would have no reason to shoot back, and in all of my reading when the Israelis are left in peace they live in peace.

Sam,

You hate extremists and yet you support Hezbollah and Hamas?? That makes sense....

"An Israeli army bulldozer crushed an American peace activist to death in the Gaza Strip yesterday in what witnesses described as a deliberate killing. Rachel Corrie, 23, died as she attempted to prevent the military destroying homes in the Rafah refugee camp, one of the most dangerous in the occupied territories."

This is called Natural Selection

Some logic from a Palestinian Muslim, and almost the exact thing that I believe would be needed to bring permanent peace:

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/77520

yo buffalo boy you do realise that israel had been occupying lebanon for 18 years, they're not gonna be friends and Hezbollah has continued to wreak havoc despite the 8 000 sorties carried out by the israeli air force, the more than 100 000 artillery shells fired and the raids conducted by the estimated 20 000 troops currently involved in the opernation.

both sides need to calm down, roll a spliff and shag some hoes

yeah, like your momma

or MY mama...she is available, you know.

yeah, like your momma

you sill vaginal deordurising wipe go to your house and rape your dog


You weirdos:
http://www.news24.com/News24/World/Middle_East/0,,2-10-2075_1980081,00.html

This is called Natural Selection

LOL!!!

indeed

and i'm sorry... Rachel Corrie was no peace activist (http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=mahatma+ghandi&meta=)
all she ever was, was a not even useful misguided idiot (as opposed to a useful idiot)

(i hope we dont get into THAT discussion now...)

plus, that was a pure propaganda piece making her Natural Selection be intentional

LOL!!!

indeed

and i'm sorry... Rachel Corrie was no peace activist (http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=mahatma+ghandi&meta=)
all she ever was, was a not even useful misguided idiot (as opposed to a useful idiot)

(i hope we dont get into THAT discussion now...)

plus, that was a pure propaganda piece making her Natural Selection be intentional

Do you mean she was not deliberately crushed by the Israeli bulldozer?

She deliberately put herself into a situation, were she screwed up and got herself killed, and what did she accomplish?

These moderate Muslims that understand Israeli victims, need to be cheered up, after all, radicals would just hang them in public square.

That fact is all real Jews died out 2000 years ago Jews now living in Israel are simply converts to the faith . The sorry news is that to accomadate this dream 5 million Palestinians to this day suffer oppression .
Timeline (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/israel/timeline/timeline1.html)

Remember one thing Palestinians did not start this war they are a totally defenceless population hereded up into refugee camps and massed into tiny enclaves of poverty and oppression , never lose sight that they are fellow human beings pushed to the wall John .

You also John .

But arent there Persian Jews? :o

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem

Looking at the History part of the page i would say you would need to go back further than the 1840s.

"According to Midrash, Jerusalem was founded by Shem and Eber, ancestors of Abraham."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham

That fact is all real Jews died out 2000 years ago Jews now living in Israel are simply converts to the faith

Are you sure about that? died out from what?

What I am also trying to understand is since Palestinians are Muslim and the land now considered Israel is not vital to their existance couldnt the surrounding states absorb them? with hardly any need for assimilation. Seems as though the ME is big enough.....

Well thats the extent of my interest in this...see you.

These moderate Muslims that understand Israeli victims, need to be cheered up, after all, radicals would just hang them in public square.

You are right. Why hang them when you can crush them under a bulldozer? And then just to be sure the job is really well done,
"Then he reversed the bulldozer back over her again."

Of course. Makes perfect sense to me. It was all her fault for trying to stop them from bulldozing down houses.

http://bbsnews.net/bbsn_photos/Israel_Palestine/rachel_corrie_happy

Sam,

You hate extremists and yet you support Hezbollah and Hamas?? That makes sense....

"An Israeli army bulldozer crushed an American peace activist to death in the Gaza Strip yesterday in what witnesses described as a deliberate killing. Rachel Corrie, 23, died as she attempted to prevent the military destroying homes in the Rafah refugee camp, one of the most dangerous in the occupied territories."

This is called Natural Selection

Natural Selection? Sounds familiar.

In fact a lot of things happening to Palestinians today sound all too familiar.

The starvation, the marriage laws, the Wall - much too familiar

Some logic from a Palestinian Muslim, and almost the exact thing that I believe would be needed to bring permanent peace:

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/77520


I don't believe for one second a Palestinian would make these comments.

She deliberately put herself into a situation, were she screwed up and got herself killed, and what did she accomplish?

Is that what you call getting murdered while doing humanitarian work? That is scary.

Corriere Della Sera, was doing humanitarian work, what was Rachel Corrie, doing? Corriere Della Sera, was feeding children, no news pictures, no lime light, What was Rachel Corrie doing? I can't find out except for a bunch of press photos about her and her organization their supposed support of Palestinian Peace, and a law suite against Caterpillar. What humanitarian work was she doing?

"Natural Selection? Sounds familiar."

If you are that stupid to stand in front of a bulldozer...
Nature is self correcting.

"Natural Selection? Sounds familiar."

If you are that stupid to stand in front of a bulldozer...
Nature is self correcting.

Does this also apply to people who are stupid enough to get in the way of precision-guided missiles?

You are not following the party line you know.

You're supposed to say: Israel is deeply deeply deeply sorry about the death of the peacekeeper. We did not deliberately target this civilian. We were only aiming for the houses and orchards in which the Palestinian terrorists were hiding behind their women and children. (Didn't you get the newsletter?)

"Natural Selection? Sounds familiar."

If you are that stupid to stand in front of a bulldozer...
Nature is self correcting.
obviously she foolishly thought that the isrealis wouldnt kill an innocent peace activist, after all isreal is such a peaceful nation

No, I doubt that she was that innocent, also, stupid and clumsy.

No, I doubt that she was that innocent, also, stupid and clumsy.
really so in your eyes its a crime to help out palestinian chilren, if not why is she not innocent, is she in legue with hamas to bring down the all powerful isreal? :rolleyes:

lgf: The Case Against Rachel Corrie
little green footballs - anti-idiotarian headquarters.
http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=11207

hmmm...im still unconvinced by one source although it is interesting