I was just wondering what the people here would consider a miracle? What criteria would you lay down before you decalred you were witness to a miracle?

Child birth is pretty sweet.

Child birth would only be a miracle if it was a guy giving birth!

For women to give birth is mere nature in operation - subjectively awe-inspiring and gobsmacking and wonderful though it may be.

:)

There are no such things, except in a colloquial sense to refer to something rare and unexpected or advantageous.

This is a good question for me because I had a really intense spiritual interaction happen to me, and for a long time afterward, I referred to it as a miracle, because nothing like it had ever happened to me before. But I realize now that it's a very relative term. There are other people out there who might consider what happened to me to be mundane, as they've experienced much more. You can call life a miracle, so you can call everthing in it a miracle. And in the same sense, then you might call nothing a miracle. It's just life!

I would say it's a miracle that anyone believes in miracles

A miracle could be anything you want it to be, it's subjective.
I'd be interested to know what Catholics regard as miracles, and how they qualify it.

Chance event which suits a credulous person who then claims 'miracle'.

I don't believe in miracles whatsoever. Things happen, sometimes they are good other times they are bad. Because one person survives a plane crash and all the others die doesn't mean that the one person was lucky but rather fortunate to make it out alive for everyone else didn't. That's just LUCK.

A miracle could be anything you want it to be, it's subjective.
I'd be interested to know what Catholics regard as miracles, and how they qualify it.

"The wonder of the miracle is due to the fact that its cause is hidden, and an effect is expected other than what actually takes place."

See the Catholic Encyclopedia at :

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10338a.htm

Learned

Something which does not follow cause and effect.
Anything else is simply natural phenomena - regardless how unlikely/beautiful/personal one may think it is.

A miracle is something that defies the laws of physics.

world peace?

world peace?

Not a miracle.. more like an impossibility :p

Not a miracle.. more like an impossibility :p

:bawl:

:bawl:

Tell ya what.. if you kill all humans on earth you will have world peace :D

Something which does not follow cause and effect.
Anything else is simply natural phenomena - regardless how unlikely/beautiful/personal one may think it is.

I suppose that begs the question, then...

Is Free Will (if you believe in it) a miracle?

I suppose that begs the question, then...

Is Free Will (if you believe in it) a miracle?

You will have to proof it exists first..

Tell ya what.. if you kill all humans on earth you will have world peace :D

Good point :p

You will have to proof it exists first..

No I won't.

The question is if you believe in it.

Do you?

If so, is it a miracle to perform an action that did not have a direct preceeding cause?

No I won't.

The question is if you believe in it.

Do you?

If so, is it a miracle to perform an action that did not have a direct preceeding cause?

What if I believe in it and it doesn't exist ? How can it then be a miracle ?
Or maybe you mean it's then a miracle that I believe in it lol ;)

What if I believe in it and it doesn't exist ? How can it then be a miracle ?

IF you believe there is such thing as Free Will AND you believe that performing an action without an immediately preceeding cause is a miracle - then you believe in miracles, regardless whether or not they exist.

Why are you not answering the questions?
Afraid of what you may have to admit to yourself? :)

An action always has a cause whether its mental or biological.

An action always has a cause whether its mental or biological.

Are you saying that you do not believe Free Will exists?

Are you saying that you do not believe Free Will exists?

Does it?

Does it?

I'm asking you for your opinion.

I'm asking you for your opinion.

I'm not sure. Freewill would imply that we could change the outcomes of our own lives, but if you really think about it you can never change the outcome of your life. Because whatever decisions you make ultimately are the only decisions you ever could have made.

I think that implies that the outcome of your life is already decided upon and there is something there TO change.

I personally believe in Free Will - but I think it is one of those things that are likely impossible to prove either way.

The questions still stands - if there IS such thing as Free Will, does each act of Free Will qualify as a miracle, because, by definition, it had no direct preceeding cause?
I am not trying to prove anything with this question - I honestly don't have an answer.

I think that implies that the outcome of your life is already decided upon

It is, Death.

If I saw someone who claimed to be a man of God and seemed very humble bring me to a cemtary and raise my great grandpa from the dead, to me that would be a very good miracle. Of course, there's no way to know it wasn't a divine event, but for me it would be good enough.

I would also consider parting an ocean with a stick a miracle as well, with the same conditions as above.

If I saw someone feed 5,000 people with a small loaf of bread, in other words if I saw the bread regenerating after every piece is ripped off, I would consider that a miracle.

It's one thing to read about a miracle and another to see it though. A 3000 year old ancient text, with no apparent original copy (the Bible), does not constitute as evidence of a miracle.

It is, Death.

You know I meant the full outcome and everything preceeding death.

You said that Free Will allows us to change the outcome of our lives - implying that what you do today will change what is destined to happen tomorrow.
I am saying that I don't think tomorrow IS destined.

I think there are three possibilities:


1.) There is no Free Will and we are all completely enslaved by biomechanical cause and effect - therefore all of the future was already determined in the instance of the first cause (if there was one) and your entire life and every thought you have ever had or will have was determined long before your grandparents were ever born.
2.) There is such thing as Free Will and nothing is determined. Though we are, of course, greatly influenced by cause and effect (external and internal), we have the ability to act irrespective of that cause and effect to at least some degree.
3.) There exists some cognizant higher power, watching and influencing us to make sure the predestined things come true, while allowing us a limited amount of Free Will.

I discount the third option out of hand - I have no belief in a cognizant higher power.

I am left with options 1 and 2.
As I said, I don't think anyone will ever prove whether option 1 or 2 is the case, I must decide which one makes the most sense to me.
I choose option 2, as I see no point what-so-ever in life or living it with option 1 being the reality. Without Free Will, we are nothing but players in a film that has already been shot, and nothing means anything. We make no choices, we feel nothing, nothing is real and nothing is anything. I can not even think without it.
If there is no Free Will, I do not exist.

Since I do not exist if there is no such thing as Free Will, it seems absurd to me to believe it does not exist. :shrug:

Given that I believe in Free Will and I also believe that the only thing that could qualify as a "miracle" is that which does not have an immediate preceeding cause, it stands to reason that an act of Free Will is a miracle.
It defies the laws of physics. Regardless of the fact that I have always said that I do not believe in miracles and that "super-natural" is a meaningless term, it still does stand up to reason.

It seems I have to revisit the question and seriously challenge what I have always believed.

I wonder how many others are willing to do the same.

Thank you, pharaohmoan, for this thread.
You have given me a lot to think about and something with which to challenege myself.
It seems that doesn't happen much anymore - not around here.

But how can free will ever actually exist if we are all bound by the constraints of death? or if we cant actually see the consequences of the two choices and pick the one we want the most?

The problem I have with this is how do we define whats determined and not determined? I mean if you are going to eat a sandwhich and then you eat the sandwhich there is no other possible outcome then you eating it. You could of not eaten it, but that no longer matters the second you took a bite. Nothing is determined, but at the same time nothing is left undetermined the actions that occur happen exactly how and when they are supposed to and there is no other alternative, you cant even describe it in terms of free will or destiny, because neither really exists.

I don't understand what death has to do with it at all.
Please elaborate on this.

Nor do I understand what foresight has to do with it.
If you can't see the future, then you have no choice in the present?
That makes no sense to me.
You can still decide whether you want to make a right or a left turn at this corner, regardless of what stands in your path in either direction.
Furthermore, we can reasonably determine the outcome of events to a degree.
If I smash my thumb with a hammer, I bet it will hurt.

Regarding the sandwhich...
Once you take the bite, it is in the past.
Of course there is only one past, that says nothing at all about the future.
In the moment - right now, I have a glass of wine in front of me.
It is undetermined whether or not I will take a sip after I post this.
If I do take the sip - it was done.
If I do not - it was not done.

Still, right now, I have not yet made the decision, and the outcome is not yet determined.

Again, I ask...

If there IS such thing as Free Will, does each act of Free Will qualify as a miracle, because, by definition, it had no direct preceeding cause?

I don't understand what death has to do with it at all.
Please elaborate on this.

Would not a true display of freewill be choosing when you die?



Nor do I understand what foresight has to do with it.
If you can't see the future, then you have no choice in the present?
That makes no sense to me.

Sure you have a choice, but because you can never actually see the outcome nor change the outcome of the choices you make, you can never change that choice. Freewill to me is not just the ability to make a choice, but the ability to change whatever choice you made.

You can still decide whether you want to make a right or a left turn at this corner, regardless of what stands in your path in either direction

But if you never made the left turn and you cant ever change the fact that you made a right turn, then did the choice to go left ever actually exist?

Furthermore, we can reasonably determine the outcome of events to a degree.
If I smash my thumb with a hammer, I bet it will hurt.


I bet it would :D

Regarding the sandwhich...
Once you take the bite, it is in the past.
Of course there is only one past, that says nothing at all about the future.


Is there a future?

In the moment - right now, I have a glass of wine in front of me.
It is undetermined whether or not I will take a sip after I post this.
If I do take the sip - it was done.
If I do not - it was not done.

But whatever outcome you choose will be the outcome that was meant to happen.

Would not a true display of freewill be choosing when you die?
Well, you CAN choose to kill yourself, if you wish - and if that's not a display of Free Will, I don't know what is.
Regardless, the ability to chose NOT to die, would not be a simple display of Free Will, it would be a display of Omnipotence.

Sure you have a choice, but because you can never actually see the outcome nor change the outcome of the choices you make, you can never change that choice. Freewill to me is not just the ability to make a choice, but the ability to change whatever choice you made.
No, Free Will is the ability to make a choice, period.
If we had no Free Will, we would not be able to make any decisions, we would be completely controlled by cause and effect and everything we do would be determined solely by preceeding causes.
You would have no power to make any decision for yourself.


But if you never made the left turn and you cant ever change the fact that you made a right turn, then did the choice to go left ever actually exist?
Not being able to change the past is not the same as not being able to make a decision in the present.


Is there a future?
Certainly.
There is time.
If there is time, there is the past, present and future.
(though the present is gone by the time you say "now".)


But whatever outcome you choose will be the outcome that was meant to happen.
If that's the case, then you had no choice in the first place.

I think that implies that the outcome of your life is already decided upon and there is something there TO change.

I personally believe in Free Will - but I think it is one of those things that are likely impossible to prove either way.

The questions still stands - if there IS such thing as Free Will, does each act of Free Will qualify as a miracle, because, by definition, it had no direct preceeding cause?
I am not trying to prove anything with this question - I honestly don't have an answer.

Can you think of an action that has no preceding cause ?

Can you think of an action that has no preceding cause ?

I'm not sure.
That's my big question.
If Free Will exists, does that imply that we can make decisions independent of preceeding cause?

Well, you CAN choose to kill yourself, if you wish - and if that's not a display of Free Will, I don't know what is.
Regardless, the ability to chose NOT to die, would not be a simple display of Free Will, it would be a display of Omnipotence.


To me Omnipotence=freewill

No, Free Will is the ability to make a choice, period.
If we had no Free Will, we would not be able to make any decisions, we would be completely controlled by cause and effect and everything we do would be determined solely by preceeding causes.
You would have no power to make any decision for yourself.

A computer can make a choice, is that an exercise of freewill?

Not being able to change the past is not the same as not being able to make a decision in the present.

But if you cant change a decision that you made even though you really want to then you dont really have freewill, to me freewill is not only the ability to make a choice, but the ability to make any choice you want at any time you want to.

Certainly.
There is time.
If there is time, there is the past, present and future.
(though the present is gone by the time you say "now".)


the future does not exist until it becomes the present.

If that's the case, then you had no choice in the first place.

exactly.

[QUOTE=one_raven;1766453]I'm not sure.
That's my big question.
If Free Will exists, does that imply that we can make decisions independent of preceeding cause?[/QUOTE

I do not believe in free will but there is no way I know of proving it. My view is based on the balance of probabilities.

I cannot imagine a decision that is without a preceding cause. For starters, we live in a world which we see as being ruled by cause and effect. We may be wrong, but I'm not sure how we would know. If ypou feel like an excursion, I can say something about Hume's sceptisizm.

We attribute a cause to every effect. Now, as far as our own actions are concerned we naturally attribute them to ourselves and the choices we make seem free because that's how it feels. We make a choice and ,having done so , we believe we could have chosen differently,

Example. I offer you tea or coffee and you choose coffee. If questioned you will affirm that you could have chosen tea. Now if we could re-enact that moment, how likely is it that you couldhave chosen differently ? Your brain, yhour thoughs and feelings would be as they were when you chose coffee. To suggest you might have chosen differently would mean your behaviour would have to be chaotic.

I don;t want to bang on more than I need to, so I would like to know what you feel about my argument so far.

To me Omnipotence=freewill
Then you need to revisit the terms, because they are two distinctly different things.
Would you prefer we call it self-determination?

A computer can make a choice, is that an exercise of freewill?
But it can not make a choice of its own volition.
A computer can do nothing on its own at all - everything it does is within clear, direct cause and effect relationships. Otherwise it would not work.
If you add voltage here, this switch flips - it is pretty much as simple as that.
That is the difference between us and computers - that's the whole point.
WE CAN make decisions of our own volition - as opposed to simply responding to stimuli.

But if you cant change a decision that you made even though you really want to then you dont really have freewill, to me freewill is not only the ability to make a choice, but the ability to make any choice you want at any time you want to.
Again - you have a misunderstanding of the term.
Free Will is nothing more than the ability to make decisions of your own volition. It is simply self-determination - not omnipotence.
Do you really think I am arguing that we are omnipotent?
Pick a word that you would define as "the ability to make decisions of one's own volition and will".

the future does not exist until it becomes the present.
I agree - which I why I say nothing is pre-determined.



exactly.
Exactly. :D

That's why Free Will exists.:)

But it can not make a choice of its own volition.
A computer can do nothing on its own at all - everything it does is within clear, direct cause and effect relationships. Otherwise it would not work.
If you add voltage here, this switch flips - it is pretty much as simple as that.
That is the difference between us and computers - that's the whole point.
WE CAN make decisions of our own volition - as opposed to simply responding to stimuli.

We are nothing more than complex biological computers. Can you give me an example of a choice you have made that is completely free of any preceeding causes?

Again - you have a misunderstanding of the term.
Free Will is nothing more than the ability to make decisions of your own volition. It is simply self-determination - not omnipotence.

again have you ever made a decision with no cause behind it?

Free will cannot exist if choices cant be made at the same time.

IF you believe there is such thing as Free Will AND you believe that performing an action without an immediately preceeding cause is a miracle - then you believe in miracles, regardless whether or not they exist.

Why are you not answering the questions?
Afraid of what you may have to admit to yourself? :)

I am not answering the question because I can't. I do not know whether free will exists or not..
I am also not entirely sure that if we have free will actions don't have a preceding cause.

I don;t want to bang on more than I need to, so I would like to know what you feel about my argument so far.

Myles,

I think I understand what you ae saying, and I appreciate your point of view.
Consider this:
I have never drank a cup of coffee in my life.
I simply don't like the taste of it.
If you offer me coffee or tea, my nature and influences should dictate that I opt for tea or nothing at all.
I do, however, have the option to take coffee, if I so wish, do I not?

Myles,

I think I understand what you ae saying, and I appreciate your point of view.
Consider this:
I have never drank a cup of coffee in my life.
I simply don't like the taste of it.
If you offer me coffee or tea, my nature and influences should dictate that I opt for tea or nothing at all.
I do, however, have the option to take coffee, if I so wish, do I not?

I would say that if you never drink coffee you will choose tea. Then the question is whether you had a free choice.

If , on the other hand I persuaded you to have coffee your choice would be the result of an extra input ( from me ). Now , if we could re-live that instant in which your choice was made, it seems reasonable to expect you to choose coffee. If you did not do so, your behaviour would be regarded as erratic.

There is no way of proving what I am saying; I amsimply going with what seems to me to be a reasonable conjecture.

A further point to consider is that if we believe the universe is ruled by cause and effect, why should we be the exception ?

As you say , you would have the option of choosing coffee but the question is whether you would use it. If you did and we re-lived the moment I would expect you to be consistent and choose coffee again. In other words. at a given instant your brain is in a given state and that is the cause of your choice. If you accept that, then the idea of an option is an illusion.

I quit smoking cold turkey after a 21 year rabid addiction. Set an entire carton of cigarettes on fire in the fireplace and never looked back. I called that a miracle...

We are nothing more than complex biological computers. Can you give me an example of a choice you have made that is completely free of any preceeding causes?

yes, i wrote this with my free will.

yes, i wrote this with my free will.

Oh dear, your reponse was the result of a stinulus in the for of a previous post

Oh dear, your reponse was the result of a stinulus in the for of a previous post

no, because i also used my free will to read that post. there are no natural laws... there is only free will.

Myles,

While I can understand why you believe the way you do, I can't say I agree (for the reasons I posted above).

Have you never done something outside your nature?
Have you never done something that seems to be in complete contradiction to the surrounding influences?

While I have never liked coffee, I may just decide one day to give it another try.
That would be an act of my own volition.

I was speaking with my wife about this last night, and I like her take on it.
Essentially, there is nothing that happens without a preceeding cause, though we do have the ability to exert the influence of our free will to determine what the effect of that cause may be.

An act of free will is not a miracle, because while we do have a choice that we can make - and we do have the ability to act spontaneously - the act is not without preceeding cause.
Either I will drink coffee tea or nothing, and that decision is mine to make, but the cause is that I was offered a beverage in the first place and there are countless factors which will influence that decision.

A further point to consider is that if we believe the universe is ruled by cause and effect, why should we be the exception ?

Perhaps the free will that advanced forms of life have been endowed with is the one spark of chaos in a universe ruled by cause and effect.
Perhaps it is the one truly unknown aspect to the equation.
Why not?

Myles,

While I can understand why you believe the way you do, I can't say I agree (for the reasons I posted above).

Have you never done something outside your nature?
Have you never done something that seems to be in complete contradiction to the surrounding influences?

While I have never liked coffee, I may just decide one day to give it another try.
That would be an act of my own volition.

I was speaking with my wife about this last night, and I like her take on it.
Essentially, there is nothing that happens without a preceeding cause, though we do have the ability to exert the influence of our free will to determine what the effect of that cause may be.

An act of free will is not a miracle, because while we do have a choice that we can make - and we do have the ability to act spontaneously - the act is not without preceeding cause.
Either I will drink coffee tea or nothing, and that decision is mine to make, but the cause is that I was offered a beverage in the first place and there are countless factors which will influence that decision.



Perhaps the free will that advanced forms of life have been endowed with is the one spark of chaos in a universe ruled by cause and effect.
Perhaps it is the one truly unknown aspect to the equation.
Why not?

I would say the cause of our choices are in our brain. Outside influences have a role to play but only insofar as they contribute to what is in our brains at the instant we make a decision. If we abandon cause and effect what is the outcome.

If you hold a stone in your hand and release your grip you expect it to fall. What would it mean if it sometimes fell and at other times flew up into the air ? It could be said that the stone had choices of all kinds but the fact is it will fall. Similarly, A preceding brainstate ( cause ) should give rise to a regular effect. I believe free will is an illusion when I wear a philosophical hat
but in everyday life I dont give it a thought. I just act and I feel free.

Just let me add that when I talk of brainstates, I am grossly oversimplyfing just to make my point.What is going on in the brain is a function of all sorts of things such as emotional reponses, recollection of past experiences, whether I have had a row with someone and so on. But if we could " freeze frame" at any moment we would have only one cause to be followed by one effect.

I agree with everything you just said, except for the part about free will being an illusion.
If you could somehow return my brain to a completely identical state in completely identical universal state (which is obviously impossible without time travel) I still think it is possible that I could change the decision I made.
But, as we both acknowledged, it is likely impossible to ever prove it either way.
I have never been able to understand those who "decide" to believe in God because it is the easier or more attractive choice - I find myself wondering if I am doing the same thing.

I certainly acknowledge that I could not see a point in living life if there was no such thing as free will - perhaps I am "chosing" to give my life a sense of reason.

I think it is curious that you, being one who believes free will is an illusion, still says:
I would say the cause of our choices are in our brain.
...and refers to them as "our choices".

I agree with everything you just said, except for the part about free will being an illusion.
If you could somehow return my brain to a completely identical state in completely identical universal state (which is obviously impossible without time travel) I still think it is possible that I could change the decision I made.
But, as we both acknowledged, it is likely impossible to ever prove it either way.
I have never been able to understand those who "decide" to believe in God because it is the easier or more attractive choice - I find myself wondering if I am doing the same thing.

I certainly acknowledge that I could not see a point in living life if there was no such thing as free will - perhaps I am "chosing" to give my life a sense of reason.

I think it is curious that you, being one who believes free will is an illusion, still says:

...and refers to them as "our choices".

As to the last bit I'm simply using language in an everyday way. It would get a bit longwinded if I said " the decision made by my brain " because the minute I talk of my brain, the decision is mine but it is still determined.

The problem is that we have grown up with the idea that we have free will and it is difficult to express the idea of determinism in relation to our actions. Think of all the atheists who say " good god !" It doesn't mean they have had a sudden conversion; they are just using an expression.

So as far as I'm concerned if I say my choice, I mean my choice because no one else has made it for me. That doesn't stop me believing that what I call choice was the only one open to me.In any event. I still feels as if I am choosing freely.

It just seems to me that people use the idea of free will to rationalize that we have a element of control if a universe that is ulitmately completly beyond our realm of understanding and control.

What is going on in the brain is a function of all sorts of things such as emotional reponses, recollection of past experiences, whether I have had a row with someone and so on. But if we could " freeze frame" at any moment we would have only one cause to be followed by one effect.

Does this mean your big picture view is that humans are formlaic?

So as far as I'm concerned if I say my choice, I mean my choice because no one else has made it for me. That doesn't stop me believing that what I call choice was the only one open to me.In any event. I still feels as if I am choosing freely.
I think this is what the archetect and the oracle talked about in the Matrix!

If we are pre-programmed what do you think we are untimatly programmed to do?

I reckon we are a crowd programme based on a few root programmes set by the archetect of our reality. Which is why individualism is rewarded.

Does this mean your big picture view is that humans are formlaic?

I'm not sure I understand your question. I regard us as sophisticated robots but, as I have already said. I cannot prove it. Whether our will is free or not , we are going to feel that our unconstrained actions are free.

If you accept that the universe seems to operate on the basis of cause and effect, why should we be exempt ?

I'm not sure I understand your question. I regard us as sophisticated robots but, as I have already said. I cannot prove it. Whether our will is free or not , we are going to feel that our unconstrained actions are free.

If you accept that the universe seems to operate on the basis of cause and effect, why should we be exempt ?

Werd:D

I think this is what the archetect and the oracle talked about in the Matrix!

If we are pre-programmed what do you think we are untimatly programmed to do?

I reckon we are a crowd programme based on a few root programmes set by the archetect of our reality. Which is why individualism is rewarded.

I know nothing aboutthe matrix , so I shall have to pass on that one.

We are programmed in the sense that we are hard wired bu our genes in some way. We are then exposed to our environment to which we react in a personal way. From then on , it's a process of action and reaction.

I do not believe we are pre-programmed in the sense that it has been decided what I shall have for lunch tomorrow because that will depend on the environment and how I react to it at that particular time. I cannot control that in advance.

I was just wondering what the people here would consider a miracle? What criteria would you lay down before you decalred you were witness to a miracle?
something thats physicaly impossible with our laws of physics such as
if I could fly simply by flapping my arms in the air,
or if someone chopped their head of and god would reach down and placed it back and healed it.

I'm not sure I understand your question. I regard us as sophisticated robots but, as I have already said. I cannot prove it. Whether our will is free or not , we are going to feel that our unconstrained actions are free.

If you accept that the universe seems to operate on the basis of cause and effect, why should we be exempt ?
So robots simply act on the their programmes and parameters right just as humans do?
This is why I am asking do you think human exibit formulaic signs? IOW they are predictable. You apply a new set of rules to society and you can pretty much theroetically predict the outcome.

I know nothing about the matrix , so I shall have to pass on that one.

We are programmed in the sense that we are hard wired by our genes in some way. We are then exposed to our environment to which we react in a personal way. From then on , it's a process of action and reaction.

I do not believe we are pre-programmed in the sense that it has been decided what I shall have for lunch tomorrow because that will depend on the environment and how I react to it at that particular time. I cannot control that in advance.
You haven't watched the Matrix, man you don't know what you're missing.

That is odd because it's the other way round with me IOW the environment reacts to me, which for me means I am more of a programmer rather than the programmed.
Maybe the detail of what you may eat tommorow is not of universal consequence, but that's not saying that major aspects and forks in the path of your life have not already been predetermined.

You may or may not find this interesting but I happen to remember my previous lifetime. Just after dying and entering my current body I was given the choice of 'viewing' aspects of my current lifetime. This is why I have so many deja vu's. In this example my life had already been mapped out so you could argue that I had no choice in life but to carry out my own destiny. IOW the choices have already been made by myself and the collective.

So robots simply act on the their programmes and parameters right just as humans do?
This is why I am asking do you think human exibit formulaic signs? IOW they are predictable. You apply a new set of rules to society and you can pretty much theroetically predict the outcome.


You haven't watched the Matrix, man you don't know what you're missing.

That is odd because it's the other way round with me IOW the environment reacts to me, which for me means I am more of a programmer rather than the programmed.
Maybe the detail of what you may eat tommorow is not of universal consequence, but that's not saying that major aspects and forks in the path of your life have not already been predetermined.

You may or may not find this interesting but I happen to remember my previous lifetime. Just after dying and entering my current body I was given the choice of 'viewing' aspects of my current lifetime. This is why I have so many deja vu's. In this example my life had already been mapped out so you could argue that I had no choice in life but to carry out my own destiny. IOW the choices have already been made by myself and the collective.

I am a bit long in the tooth to become excited about the Matrix. If you feel like a programmer, that's fine. I was not comparing us to computers. Computers follow instructions; we are not programmed in that sense because evolution is random, not programmed.

Lots of people believe thy had former lives. Deja vu can be explained by what is going on in your brain, and does not have to be a recollection of an event in a former life. But, if you wish to believe it does, it's your privelige to do,

Child birth is pretty sweet.

I'd consider a miracle as something out of the ordianry and intrinsicly good and beneficial.

I'd consider a miracle as something out of the ordianry and intrinsicly good and beneficial.How do you judge "out of the ordinary"? 1 chance in 2? 1 in 3? 1 in 100? 1 in 1000? What is "ordinary"?
Or is merely following laws of probability to be considered "ordinary"?

Can you give an example of what you would consider a miracle?
Someone winning the lottery, perhaps - if they had already promised to give 90% of it to charity?
Please do give as an example?

I'd consider a miracle as something out of the ordianry and intrinsicly good and beneficial.

Why would it have to be good and beneficial ?

How do you judge "out of the ordinary"? 1 chance in 2? 1 in 3? 1 in 100? 1 in 1000? What is "ordinary"?
Or is merely following laws of probability to be considered "ordinary"?

Can you give an example of what you would consider a miracle?
Someone winning the lottery, perhaps - if they had already promised to give 90% of it to charity?
Please do give as an example?

I think you'd know it when you see it.

Why would it have to be good and beneficial ?

Why would it be for anything else?

Why would it be for anything else?

I have no idea what it would be for, but if a miracle were to happen I cannot see why it should necessarily follow that the outcome would be beneficial .
The plagues sent upon Egypt were not benrficial to the Egyptians, if one believes such a thing happened.

I think we'll jut have to suspend judgement until a miracle occurs.

I have no idea what it would be for, but if a miracle were to happen I cannot see why it should necessarily follow that the outcome would be beneficial .
The plagues sent upon Egypt were not benrficial to the Egyptians, if one believes such a thing happened.

I think we'll jut have to suspend judgement until a miracle occurs.

If we suspend judgement we still haven't agreed on what would constitute a miracle. In some ways I think it entails the following:

1.Is out of the ordinary
2.A marvel that is unexplainable at the time
3.Creates a feel of awe and possibly fear (people are generally scared of not being in thier comfort zone of rationality)
4.An act that defies normal physical laws
5.Some kind of Divine intervention

If we suspend judgement we still haven't agreed on what would constitute a miracle. In some ways I think it entails the following:

1.Is out of the ordinary
2.A marvel that is unexplainable at the time
3.Creates a feel of awe and possibly fear (people are generally scared of not being in thier comfort zone of rationality)
4.An act that defies normal physical laws
5.Some kind of Divine intervention

I'm not holding my breath. I go with David Hume who said something to the effect that a miracle would have to transcend the natural order, i.e., break the laws of Nature and that such a thing would require an even more miraculous explanation.

To see exactly what he said , check out Hume on Miracles, An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding

Dear Mr Myles I'm Davidon4u You Said I Copied Your Work In Regards To Our Creation. Thats Not True I Dont Know You And Have Never Read Any Of Your Books.i Started My Work 25 Or So Years Ago.you Don't Have Any Copy Writes To The Truths In The Bible.i Doubt Your Work And My Work Are Much Alike At All.the Fact That You Have A Lawyer And Would Sue Sombody Over Telling Any Truths From The Bible Leeds Everyone To Believe You Are Not A Christian.i Doubt Your Works Can Compare To Mine.this Story Of Our Creation Was First Recorded Thousands Of Years Before You Were Even Born.so If Anybody Is Copying Anyone Else' Work That Would Be You.i'm An A American And I Have Freedom Of Speech And My Lawyer Is Jesus The Christ So You And Your Lawyer Take This Matter Up With Him. Davidon4u

My lawyer keeeps trying to take the matter up with Jesus but he never replies

My lawyer keeeps trying to take the matter up with Jesus but he never replies

LMAOOOOOOOOO!!!!

I have no idea what it would be for, but if a miracle were to happen I cannot see why it should necessarily follow that the outcome would be beneficial .
The plagues sent upon Egypt were not benrficial to the Egyptians, if one believes such a thing happened.

I think we'll jut have to suspend judgement until a miracle occurs.

And if you don't believe in such things then it really is illogical to entertain the thought.

And if you don't believe in such things then it really is illogical to entertain the thought.

You really must sort out your idea of logic, I can contemplate a vacuum without believing there is anything in it,

Dear Mr Myles

I'm Davidon4u

You Said I Copied Your Work In Regards To Our Creation. Thats Not True I Dont Know You And Have Never Read Any Of Your Books.i Started My Work 25 Or So Years Ago.you Don't Have Any Copy Writes To The Truths In The Bible.i Doubt Your Work And My Work Are Much Alike At All.the Fact That You Have A Lawyer And Would Sue Sombody Over Telling Any Truths From The Bible Leeds Everyone To Believe You Are Not A Christian.i Doubt Your Works Can Compare To Mine.this Story Of Our Creation Was First Recorded Thousands Of Years Before You Were Even Born.so If Anybody Is Copying Anyone Else' Work That Would Be You.i'm An A American And I Have Freedom Of Speech And My Lawyer Is Jesus The Christ So You And Your Lawyer Take This Matter Up With Him. Davidon4u
*************
M*W: I sincerely hope you don't get in any real trouble, because you'll find yourself standing before a judge with no legal representation.

If your statement were truthful, why hasn't any court anywhere in the world appointed Jesus as a court-appointed attorney for the righteous? Surely, there have been some innocent people charged with crimes, but Jesus never showed up to represent them.

Also, being christian doesn't save the guilty from due prosecution under the law.

Try to live within the scope of reality. Obviously, you're not.

You really must sort out your idea of logic, I can contemplate a vacuum without believing there is anything in it,

So you find it logical to contemplate the existence of that which does not exist to you. IF you were uncertain it would be logical. But you've denied the existence of God (I have the quotes) so you entertaining this is frivolous or nefarious. Neither is logical.

So you find it logical to contemplate the existence of that which does not exist to you. IF you were uncertain it would be logical. But you've denied the existence of God (I have the quotes) so you entertaining this is frivolous or nefarious. Neither is logical.

There you go again LOGIC...you have no idea. Has the thought of a unicorn never entered your head ? Have you never wondered about itsorigin ? Do you never wonder or think about Father Christmas and who invented him ?

If someone knocked on your door selling fairies which you could not see would you buy some ? Don't you know any fairytales. So, you only think about what's in the bible ?

Well, as you are fixated on logic, can you explain how Noah knew he had a full complement of animals? How did the animals know when to leave for the Ark, given that they had to travel from all over the globe ? How did marsupials learn to swim ? Did Noah realize there were African and Indian elephants, as he must have taken two of each ? How about tigers and leopards ? And were the animals fighting to get aboard the Ark or was it a question that only two of each kind were given special knowledge?Why did god drown all the other innocent animals ? Were they sinners ?

I'm sure it's all very logical and that you can explain it because it seems like a lot of neonsense to me and. I would not have thought about it had it not been thrust upon me by some of your fellow logicians.




I noticed your robust answer to what you would consider a miracle.Well done !

"Has a thought of a unicorn never entered my head?"
I'm not a little girl so the answer is no.

Have I contemplated it's origin.
I would never waste my time in such a way, Miles. The thought has never been entertained. I'm just not a fantasy oriented person.

Don't you know any fairytales.
If they make to DVD I might.

Do you never wonder or think about Father Christmas and who invented him ?
Father WHO? Are you serious. I don't celebrate Christmas. I never have, never will.

So, you only think about what's in the bible ?
Bible study is difficult. It doesn't come easily. My mind would prefer to wonder on other less spirtual things. Sprituality requries maintainance.

I notice of your behavior that most things seem like nonsense to you if it runs contrary to your agenda and not just from a spiritual perspective. When you say nonsense, then more than likely it does make sense and you've displayed an emotional reaction to the information that's been provided.

It would seem you have a tendancy to assocate things religious with nonsense automaticly which is why it is illogical for you contemplate there origin day dream about them and discus it at length.

Evolution is effectively fantasy, Like Teenage Mutant Nija Turtles only without the entertainment factor. Why would I contemplate monkeys mutating into human beings if I didn't believe it was possible or at least undecided. It's not logical, there is no point.

You might try maintaining your own sense of uprightness and tailor your response so others may take you more seriously than the brute bull in a china shop reputation you've created for yourself. Diplomacy never hurt anyone and it could do you some good.

"Has a thought of a unicorn never entered my head?"
I'm not a little girl so the answer is no.

Have I contemplated it's origin.
I would never waste my time in such a way, Miles. The thought has never been entertained. I'm just not a fantasy oriented person.

Don't you know any fairytales.
If they make to DVD I might.

Do you never wonder or think about Father Christmas and who invented him ?
Father WHO? Are you serious. I don't celebrate Christmas. I never have, never will.

So, you only think about what's in the bible ?
Bible study is difficult. It doesn't come easily. My mind would prefer to wonder on other less spirtual things. Sprituality requries maintainance.

I notice of your behavior that most things seem like nonsense to you if it runs contrary to your agenda and not just from a spiritual perspective. When you say nonsense, then more than likely it does make sense and you've displayed an emotional reaction to the information that's been provided.

It would seem you have a tendancy to assocate things religious with nonsense automaticly which is why it is illogical for you contemplate there origin day dream about them and discus it at length.

Evolution is effectively fantasy, Like Teenage Mutant Nija Turtles only without the entertainment factor. Why would I contemplate monkeys mutating into human beings if I didn't believe it was possible or at least undecided. It's not logical, there is no point.

You might try maintaining your own sense of uprightness and tailor your response so others may take you more seriously than the brute bull in a china shop reputation you've created for yourself. Diplomacy never hurt anyone and it could do you some good.

Lets get a couple of things straight. I'm not remotely interested in your approval. I couldn't care less about you and your spirituality. In short. I have no use foir you advice.

So you have never celebrated Christmas. Well, good for you. Many non-Christians do. so it's no big deal. I take it you know it was originally a pagan festival.

You are right about my views on religion. I do think it's nonsense. i.e., it makes no sense. I am not in the business of telling others what to believe but when I come across people such as you touting their wares, I oppose them so that some of their readers may be helped to see that there are other ways of looking at things. I regard all forms of religious indoctrination in schools and homes as a form of child abuse.

Bible study is indeed difficult, hence your apparent inability to answer my wuestion about Noah. How about the gang rape mentioned in Judges ? Now that is difficult to understand, so it has to be rationalized by explaining that the text doesn't mean what the text says. Never mind, there's a bible scholar who will explain it all away.

Who told you that monkeys mutate into men ? Some Christian ID site which specialises in twisting the truth to gain converts for their particular brand of superstition.

A CHALLENGE: If you can cite a work on evolutionary theory where it states that monkeys mutate into men, I will retract everything I have said, So, pick up the gauntlet, if you dare. Let's see what you are really made of !

The fact that you say monkeys shows the depth of your ignorance; monkeys are not apes, chimpazees are. Even Noah knew the difference.

The year is 2008 but you are playing the role of Soapy Sam Wilberforce who was roundly defeated in 1920. Get up to date and, in so doing, give ID a wide berth.

I shall wait to hear from you about the "monkeys". Anything else is irrelevant at this juncture.

Lets get a couple of things straight. I'm not remotely interested in your approval. I couldn't care less about you and your spirituality. In short. I have no use foir you advice.

You say you're not intrested in my approval, yet you follow, intercept and engage my opinion almost an almost endless line of questioning. Again you behavior is not just illogical it's contrary to you apparent objective. If you have no use for my approval then why do you seek it.


Logic Miles,
It says that our ideologies and morality are so different there is no commonality to relate to. Defying that logic you seem to seek my attention. Logicly I don't care at all about what you think on religion, I have no need to compare with your mind set. It's not personal, just logical.

Again. Logic.
You have not seen it, Miles. Your emotions blind you. (yes this is my observance) You're prejudice, nothing can change your mind, the same with others. I its not a matter of the decision you've made regarding religion and science it's the failure to see one religion is not all. You've mispoken several times as though this is true. That founds prejudice.

I avoid prejudice individuals assiduously. I can learn nothing from them. Nothing good or nice ever came from prejudice.


A CHALLENGE: If you can cite a work on evolutionary theory where is states that monkeys mutate into men, I will retract everything I have said, So, pick up the gauntlet, if you dare. Let's see what you are really made of !

You see Miles, I don't engage sick individuals because they're contaminated. The longer I stay in contact the greater the risk that I'll contract your prejudice. That's why I try to get rid of you. You're very much like a cancer or ulcer, part of the same body but working against the whole. An error in attitude if you will, consumed with your selfeven if it leads to the death of the body we all live on.


Like you with your bible accusations it actually shows my contempt. The difference being I know and listen to what others say about evolution at ever chance in order to accept any new information to change my mind. You've shown that no amount of knowledge will change your mind set. That is illogical and inherently an emotionaly driven decesion. If you make decisions based on emotion then your chances of making wrong decisions drasticly increases.

You say you're not intrested in my approval, yet you follow, intercept and engage my opinion almost an almost endless line of questioning. Again you behavior is not just illogical it's contrary to you apparent objective. If you have no use for my approval then why do you seek it.


Logic Miles,
It says that our ideologies and morality are so different there is no commonality to relate to. Defying that logic you seem to seek my attention. Logicly I don't care at all about what you think on religion, I have no need to compare with your mind set. It's not personal, just logical.

Again. Logic.
You have not seen it, Miles. Your emotions blind you. (yes this is my observance) You're prejudice, nothing can change your mind, the same with others. I its not a matter of the decision you've made regarding religion and science it's the failure to see one religion is not all. You've mispoken several times as though this is true. That founds prejudice.

I avoid prejudice individuals assiduously. I can learn nothing from them. Nothing good or nice ever came from prejudice.




You see Miles, I don't engage sick individuals because they're contaminated. The longer I stay in contact the greater the risk that I'll contract your prejudice. That's why I try to get rid of you. You're very much like a cancer or ulcer, part of the same body but working against the whole. An error in attitude if you will, consumed with your selfeven if it leads to the death of the body we all live on.


Like you with your bible accusations it actually shows my contempt. The difference being I know and listen to what others say about evolution at ever chance in order to accept any new information to change my mind. You've shown that no amount of knowledge will change your mind set. That is illogical and inherently an emotionaly driven decesion. If you make decisions based on emotion then your chances of making wrong decisions drasticly increases.

You are playing your usual game of using ad homs when you have nothing to say/ So, you listen to what others say about evolution. Well then. who told you that monkeys mutate into men ? I asked you for a source and you have failed to provide one. So instead of personal attacks TELL US HOW MONKEYS MUTATE INTO MEN AND WHERE YOU GOT YOUR INFORMATION FROM. iF YOU CANNOT DO THAT YOU WILL BE SEEN FOR THE FRAUD YOU ARE.

What a lame excuse you are using. In your previous post you were willing to talk to me when you thought you had an argument. Now you have nothing to say, you don't want to talk to me because your previous post was rubbish and is insupportable. I gave you the opportunity to prove me wrong ; I think we both know why you have not done so.

You interpret my taking issue with youtr utterances a approval- seeking behaviour.Who the hell do you think you are, that anyone other than an ignoramus would seek you approval. You don't even know the difference between a monkey and an ape, yet you would have us believe that you understand evolutionary theory. What a joke.

It's not an attack, Miles, it's an observation.
Miles, no one here is playing any games except for you.
You think all religion is a fraud. I don't take that personally, because it's you.
I engage you because you engage me. Simple, logic. No excuse necessary. For every action there is an equal an opposite reaction. My not responding to your tantrums is a failure to react, I make decisions with a clear and purposed mind set. I foresee that I shall never take any "opportunity" as you call them that you offer.

You seem incapable of independent rational thought because all you do is take issue. Yet do not listen to the response afterward. I don't laugh at you. I find you more pitable than funny.

It's not an attack, Miles, it's an observation.
Miles, no one here is playing any games except for you.
You think all religion is a fraud. I don't take that personally, because it's you.
I engage you because you engage me. Simple, logic. No excuse necessary. For every action there is an equal an opposite reaction. My not responding to your tantrums is a failure to react, I make decisions with a clear and purposed mind set. I foresee that I shall never take any "opportunity" as you call them that you offer.

You seem incapable of independent rational thought because all you do is take issue. Yet do not listen to the response afterward. I don't laugh at you. I find you more pitable than funny.

More ad homs. Tell us about the monkeys. You have avoided facts like the plague in the majority of your posts, not just with those you have addressed to me. I remember a moderator saying that you would not answer any question that did not fit in with your personal beliefs. Several people have derided you for your posturing and evasion. Anyone who can be bothered to look at your posts will see that this ois so.

Rational thought is a favourite expression of yours. Well, anyone who appears to study the bible as intently as you do cannot possibly be capable of rational thought because it is riddled with contradictions. Why do you think there are so many Christian sects ? Yours is just one of many voices clamouring for attention because you believe you have a better understanding of the bible than others do.

Have you forgotten how you " bent" Matthew 1 to suit your purpose. When it was pointed out that you were wrong, you would still not admit it but sought refuge in arguing that it was in some copy of the bible which you were not prepared to cite. I think it's a fair criticizm to say that you lack integrity. You must hold on to your biblical comfort blanket come hell or high water.

Ignore me if you will. I can live with it, But for the sake of others who may read your posts, tell them why you believe Monkeys mutate into Men and where such information can be found. Is that asking too much of you ? I believe it is but you can alwqays choose to chasten me by explaining why your information is correct. You owe it to yourself to set the record,straight. Do you want to be regarded as someone who cannot support what he says, because if that is how things are with you, the less you say the better.

However you insult me in an attempt to save face, you will not find a single instance of my saying anything I cannot support. So do tell us about the monkeys ,lest we suspect that you are an example of it happening in reverse.

I've avoided you like the plague or did you not understand the cancer symbolism?
Anyone that looks at my post can see that I have the upmost contempt for badgering behavior like your own.

Rational is a necesity you some how do with out Miles. You expect it of others but not of yourself. Your kindred do like wise. The clamoring you here that not the religious sects those voices are dying off what you're hearing must be something else...maybe it's the memory of what you were taught chasing your subconscious.

Matthew One...Lets go there again and see how you explain that family history, geneology and history are not synonymous. You are blined by emotion. The obvious escapes your grasp, Miles. I can't make you see what you don't wish to recognize.

I don't need to save face Miles. Reptuation isn't important. Logic is.
But it is obviously important to you. You grandstand and show off like child. Which by the way I've come to accept you as. I deal with you firmly and I don't give in to your tantrums not matter how public they are. Likely your mother didn't do the same with you. But that's what happens when we are allowed to dictate terms based on reputation. You presume I become squemish because you rell and pout and stomp in the middle of the grocery store and use your weight to anchor yourself to your spot. The screaming and howlering you can even piss your pants and it's not going to manipulate my responses to you one iota from what is the appropriate response.

The response is...Get a grip. Grow up. Get over your child hood pain. Get over being lied to by your religion, pull yourself up and start acting like a inteligent human being. Realize to get respect you must earn it. And your contempories merely lead you around like a bulldog to seek on theist and the spirutal minded. So you're the Sci Forums Gang. Most forums have a fool and a bully you're playing the role of both. So why would I treat you any other way but how you're playing the part?

You don't impress me and you never have. And the more you pant at my feet the more I treat you as lowly as you are surely acting.

Saquist,

NOW WE NOW YOU ARE NOTHING BUT A WOULD-BE INTELLECTUAL. BY ME AND MY KINDRED YOU MEAN ANYONE WHO DOES NOT AGREE WITH YOU.

YOU ARE PROBABLY ACCUSTOMED TO IMPRESSING YOUNG CHILDREN WITH YOUR BS BUT YOU ARE PLAYING WITH BIG BOYS HERE , SO BLUSTER, EVASION AND AD HOMS WILL SCORE NO POINTS.

I AM NOT REMOTELY NTERESTED IN IMPRESSING YOU BECAUSE TO DO SO WOULD ENTAIL ABANDONING REASON .

IF YOU HAVE A SPARK OF INTEGRITY YOU WILL ADMIT YOU WERE WRONG ABOUT MONKEYS MUTATING INTO MEN, UNLESS YOU TRULY BELIEVE IT. IF SO CITE YOUR SOURCES

YOU ARE DELUDING YOURSELF IF YOU BELIEVE THAT NAME-CALLING IS A SUBSTITUTE FOR AN HONEST ANSWER. LET'S HAVE SOME FACTS. IF YOU CANNOT DO SO HAVE THE SENSE TO KEEP QUIET. I HAVE NO FURTHER INTEREST IN DISCUSSING THIS TOPIC WITH YOU, NOT THAT WE HAVE HAD A PROPER DISCUSSION AS THE RECORD SHOWS.

I RESERVE THE RIGHT TO COMMENT ON YOUR POSTS ON OTHER THREADS AS I HAVE DONE THIS EVENING ,WHEN YOU AGAIN SHOWED YOUR LACK OF UNDERSTANDING OF EVOLUTION AND WHAT A SCIENTIFIC THEORY IS.

Did you think caps would make you look intelligent. You've been trumpeting the whole time. I've given you exactly what you want Miles. You want attention and lots of it. And you got it. You want someone to watch you express your intellectual pain and suffering. I'm watching...and it's not pretty. From you, I begin to comprehend just why some put animals out of their misery when they've been wounded as bad as you have been. It is unfortunant that this is the way you've chosen to express yourself. But I don't fault animals when they lash out bite and foam at the mouth such as you. I would be content to leave you to writhe in your own agony but you follow as though you want my help. But I can't help you. I don't believe in ending suffering in such away, I believe you should be allowed to suffer and to either be better because you survived or die because you were too weak.

Yours is the most painful to witness. It is the wounding of the heart and sometimes those wounds never heal. I would prefer you to be quadriplegic than to be so emotionally and rationaly hampered such as you have been rendered. It's like someone has taken your sight from you. You can't tell your enemy from an ally, deranged as though like an animal infected with rabis, viscious, and nothing resembling what I imagine must have been a more trusting and honest person.

These are your blinders Miles. This is not a fight. This not debate. This is the answer to all your questions. Look into yourself and ask them. Accept them and learn to accept your past as it is. Own it and move on or remain captive to those that destroyed you.

You have said everything that you need to say to show what you are made of. I see you have given up Darwinism in favour of Psychiatry, with as little success.

Do you honestly think I would take seriously anything a pseud like you says? Would anyone else fo rthat matter ? You have had little success on here but, as we know, that's because others fail to appreciate your wisdom.

How is it that the majority of your posts end up by your hurlimg insults at your interlocutor when you have painted yourself into a corner ? Just look at a few of your posts and you'll see a pattern..

With each post on this thread your replies are getting more and more desperate. Given your latest qualification as a psychiatrist, I'm sure you can find an appripriate name for your condition. I had given you benefit of the doubt by assuming you were just ignorant.

I have stuck to facts and you have responded with invective when things didn't go your way. Does that tell you anything?

As for Monkeys mutating into Men, I will leave you with a Spanish proverb which is so apt it could have been coined with you in mind.

" A monkey dressed in silk is still a monkey." This could translate as.

A Redneck in a suit is still a Redneck.

As for Monkeys mutating into Men, I will leave you with a Spanish proverb which is so apt it could have been coined with you in mind.

I feel the need for an enema right now! :eek:

Do you honestly think I would take seriously anything a pseud like you says? Would anyone else fo rthat matter ?


You keep coming back for it don't you?
I have a colloqquialism that may explain your stupor.

"You may find nobility in the savage, but he is only intrested in killing you."

Perhaps I've overestimated your intelligence. In anycase if this isn't a pefect specimen for pshciatric observation, then you merely have very, very poorly developed social skills.
Hey, it could be both.

I feel the need for an enema right now! :eek:

Be wary of enemas. Do you know that Darwin was convinced that ,given a sufficient number of enemas a man can mutate in to a sea cucumber ?

And if you don't believe in such things then it really is illogical to entertain the thought.

How is it illogical?

Evolution is effectively fantasy, Like Teenage Mutant Nija Turtles only without the entertainment factor. Why would I contemplate monkeys mutating into human beings if I didn't believe it was possible or at least undecided

Monkeys mutating into human beings heh? :bugeye: Evolution is not fantasy but your understanding of it clearly is.

Monkeys mutating into human beings heh? :bugeye: Evolution is not fantasy but your understanding of it clearly is.

but didn't darwin originally say that humans evolved from apes (mon keys), it's just that scientists have changed it now, like christians have changed the bible because they don't agree with it...?

Monkeys are not apes.
And he did not say that humans evolved from apes, he said we had a common ancestor.

You should learn more about evolution rather than running with half-assed, biased, second and third-hand explanations of it - and then claiming fallacy of something you misunderstand.
It just makes you look foolish.

How is it illogical?

How is not? If the first explanations was insufficient I suggest you let it go. It doesn't matter if you find that it describe your own preoccupation with something you don't believe in. Not everything humans do makes much sense anyway.



Monkeys mutating into human beings heh? :bugeye: Evolution is not fantasy but your understanding of it clearly is.

LOL
Obtuse.

How is not? If the first explanations was insufficient I suggest you let it go. It doesn't matter if you find that it describe your own preoccupation with something you don't believe in. Not everything humans do makes much sense anyway.


I don't believe in Klingons or the Borg but they are certainly interesting notions to give thought to and I don't see how you could espouse that as being illogical. Entertaining thought in things we don't specifically believe in is important to ever getting anywhere and it's quite safe to say that the world would be short on novels if we didn't. So tell me, how is it illogical? I don't see anywhere that you actually 'explained' it as you did just stated it as so and done.

LOL
Obtuse.

Not a comment I was expecting. What I was expecting was for you to admit that you were wrong and that monkeys do not mutate into humans, or to perhaps provide some worthy source that says they do.

The thing is that you claimed evolution is fantasy and yet displayed an utter and absolute lack of understanding of it. The mature and responsible thing to do is to either admit your mistake or show why you think your statement has merit. Or you could continue with "LOL obtuse" if you think it is of any value to anything.

Monkeys are not apes.
And he did not say that humans evolved from apes, he said we had a common ancestor.

You should learn more about evolution rather than running with half-assed, biased, second and third-hand explanations of it - and then claiming fallacy of something you misunderstand.
It just makes you look foolish.

I have come across much similar half-baked crackpottery on Creationist sites. They prey on the uninformed and delude them with pseudo-scientific arguments.

"The wonder of the miracle is due to the fact that its cause is hidden, and an effect is expected other than what actually takes place."

See the Catholic Encyclopedia at :

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10338a.htm

Learned

I note your source says " the wonder of the miracle". This takes the notion of miracles for granted and leads to circularity.

For an opposing view see Hume, An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding

I don't believe in Klingons or the Borg but they are certainly interesting notions to give thought to and I don't see how you could espouse that as being illogical. Entertaining thought in things we don't specifically believe in is important to ever getting anywhere and it's quite safe to say that the world would be short on novels if we didn't. So tell me, how is it illogical? I don't see anywhere that you actually 'explained' it as you did just stated it as so and done.

So you find religion intresting that a logical reason to pursue it? That is logical. Are you speaking for Miles? Do you think he needs representation because he's unable to articulate his obsession?



Not a comment I was expecting. What I was expecting was for you to admit that you were wrong and that monkeys do not mutate into humans, or to perhaps provide some worthy source that says they do.

The thing is that you claimed evolution is fantasy and yet displayed an utter and absolute lack of understanding of it. The mature and responsible thing to do is to either admit your mistake or show why you think your statement has merit. Or you could continue with "LOL obtuse" if you think it is of any value to anything.


Because I already answered this, I'm not likely to respond to another inquiry.
That's why I'm laughing you. You can make a big deal and get all puffed up
or
go read what I said to Miles.
I was talking to Miles, not you, and I shouldn't have to repeat myself because you decided to interject yourself into the conversation.
I don't mind you taking issue with the comment. I just don't care for repeating to the thick headed. And if you can't find it...well that's just too bad. I'm not a nursemaid.

THUS...
LOL
OBTUSE!!!

Edit: Oh, and I'm not saying you're necessarily think headed. I really don't yet. But Miles would have me repeat to no end the same point thus that is very OBTUSE. He chose to ignore and press his agenda as a result I have little tolerance for the same question. Perhaps not your fault, maybe you're just caught in the cross fire.

but didn't darwin originally say that humans evolved from apes (mon keys), it's just that scientists have changed it now, like christians have changed the bible because they don't agree with it...?

I bet you got that one from a Creationist site. In the first place, Darwin never spoke of monkeys mutating into men. That was used by some of his opponents, in particular Bishop Wiberforce, known as Soapy Sam. He used it in a debate with Huxley ,who soundly refuted him.

What Darwin said was that man and the apes shared a common ancestor. You can say that chinpazees, for examle, are related to us because of the closeness of their genetic make-up to ours. It's not a question of chimps mutating into men but one of parallel development.

Think about flowers belonging to a certain family. They do so, not because some change into others, but because of characteristics they share. Darwin came up with a beautifully clear explanation concerning how lifeforms develop. His elegant idea has been corrupted by people who make no effort to understand what he wrote, and by Creationists who present misleading information . They do so because because Darwin's theory contradicts Genesis. As you possibly know, such people will ignore and revile any ideas which do not fit in with their narrow beliefs.

If you are seriously interested in evolution, why not find out for yourself. There must to be loads of information on line. Don't allow others to think for you.

So you find religion intresting that a logical reason to pursue it? That is logical.

Aye, it's an interesting subject - but I am not pursuing it, I am merely discussing it, it's impact, it's issues, and so on. No, it does not mean I believe in gods or demons of heavens or hells and no, it isn't illogical to discuss things you do not believe in.

Are you speaking for Miles? Do you think he needs representation because he's unable to articulate his obsession?


No, I was merely contesting your statement.

I was talking to Miles, not you, and I shouldn't have to repeat myself because you decided to interject yourself into the conversation.


One should expect others to interject when they make naive comments along the lines of monkeys mutating into humans. Did you explain yourself better or admit your error elsewhere? I suppose it's possible, I had to skip the several posts of personal bickering that was going on. I would ask kindly at this point that you just give me a post number where this explanation is. It would certainly save me the headache. Thanks.

I just don't care for repeating to the thick headed. And if you can't find it...well that's just too bad. I'm not a nursemaid.


I don't see just cause for this hostility. Did I insult your mother or something?

However, relax.. I am in a chirpy, happy mood right now so feel free to continue with the verbal abuse as much as you like.

Of course we wouldn't even be going through this if you hadn't have mentioned monkeys mutating into people, but oh well, you're allowed to make mistakes just like anyone else. I just think it more honourable that people own up to those mistakes when they make them. It's not like anyone's going to chop your nuts off.

Aye, it's an interesting subject - but I am not pursuing it, I am merely discussing it, it's impact, it's issues, and so on. No, it does not mean I believe in gods or demons of heavens or hells and no, it isn't illogical to discuss things you do not believe in.

Snakelord, what do I care what you think?
Why do you care what I think?



No, I was merely contesting your statement.
Ah...Shame....



One should expect others to interject when they make naive comments along the lines of monkeys mutating into humans. Did you explain yourself better or admit your error elsewhere? I suppose it's possible, I had to skip the several posts of personal bickering that was going on. I would ask kindly at this point that you just give me a post number where this explanation is. It would certainly save me the headache. Thanks.

I'm not gonna go back and look, Snakelord, it's so trivial I'm surprised I'm even responding to your post. Well...not that surprised.



I don't see just cause for this hostility. Did I insult your mother or something?
If so...then shame on you.

However, relax.. I am in a chirpy, happy mood right now so feel free to continue with the verbal abuse as much as you like.

How stolid, Snakelord, that doesn't appear very cheery.

Of course we wouldn't even be going through this if you hadn't have mentioned monkeys mutating into people, but oh well, you're allowed to make mistakes just like anyone else. I just think it more honourable that people own up to those mistakes when they make them. It's not like anyone's going to chop your nuts off.

Yes. The pot is indeed stirred quite well. I'm actually most satisfied with the results. MOST satisfied. It really dosen't take much.

Snakelord, what do I care what you think?

Well, that certainly brings back the memories of what it is to be a teenager.

I would simply submit that if you don't care what other people think, you're really not in the best of places, (a forum where people say what they think). Perhaps you would be better off in a quiet place devoid of people.

I'm not gonna go back and look, Snakelord, it's so trivial I'm surprised I'm even responding to your post. Well...not that surprised.

That's fine, I went back and looked. Lo and behold there was no explanation, no admittal of error and no sources claiming that monkeys mutate into humans. I am quite surprised that you consider your absolute lack of understanding of evolution as 'trivial', but perhaps to you it is. In that case I would advise you not start speaking about the subject matter as if you know anything about it.

Myles offered you the challenge to support your statement. In the response to that you refused on the basis that he is a "sick, contaminated individual" and "like a cancer". I would submit that "no, I wont accept the challenge" would have been better than getting all personal where you need not have done, or indeed just a retraction of your statement. Once again, nobody is going to kill you because you happened to be wrong. It seems pride got in the way.


If so...then shame on you.

I'd agree, but I didn't do such a thing. You unfortunately spent quite a while insulting Myles, his mother and childhood. So, shame on you yes? Or no?

Yes. The pot is indeed stirred quite well. I'm actually most satisfied with the results. MOST satisfied. It really dosen't take much.

If you say so. Apparently you're not ready for adult conversation. When you think you are give me a pm and we'll talk.

*************
M*W: How many times have you heard a theist say, "It happened and it was a miracle!"

I have heard this quite a lot. When they say it, my mind is calculating the positive reasoning behind the "result" of their miraculous event. It's pretty obvious to me that their "miracle" occurred because of:

1 x
2 x
3 x

I just don't understand how they cannot see the obvious deduction to their belief.

Is it me, or have y'all experienced this, too?

*************
M*W's Friendly Atheist Quote (FAQ) of the Day:

"As for me, I've long resolved not to think whether man created god or God man." ~ Fyodor Dostoyevsky

*************
M*W's Anti-Bitterness Comments (ABCs) of the Day:

"I am where I am because I believe in all possibilities." ~ Whoopi Goldberg, b. 1955 American Actress

What Darwin said was that man and the apes shared a common ancestor.

yes, the astral human prototype.

If you are seriously interested in evolution, why not find out for yourself.

i understand evolution already... but i don't believe much in darwins physical evolution (natural selection), i believe in spirit (d)evolution. darwin didn't know much about spirits so his weak ideas couldn't explain how the eye could evolve.

*************
M*W: How many times have you heard a theist say, "It happened and it was a miracle!"

I have heard this quite a lot. When they say it, my mind is calculating the positive reasoning behind the "result" of their miraculous event. It's pretty obvious to me that their "miracle" occurred because of:

1 x
2 x
3 x

I just don't understand how they cannot see the obvious deduction to their belief.

Is it me, or have y'all experienced this, too?

*************
M*W's Friendly Atheist Quote (FAQ) of the Day:

"As for me, I've long resolved not to think whether man created god or God man." ~ Fyodor Dostoyevsky

*************
M*W's Anti-Bitterness Comments (ABCs) of the Day:

"I am where I am because I believe in all possibilities." ~ Whoopi Goldberg, b. 1955 American Actress

I cannoy put my hands on my copy of Hume's enquiry at the moment. but he said something to the effect that a miracle would have to contravene the natural order as we understand it from everyday life. He went on to say that such an event would require an even more miraculous explanation. You can see the full text in a chapter of Hume's Enquiry Concernong Human Understanding. There may be something available on line.

In lighter vein.....if a plane crashes and only one person survives , that's a miracle. If all but one survive that's not a miracle.

Well, that certainly brings back the memories of what it is to be a teenager.

I would simply submit that if you don't care what other people think, you're really not in the best of places, (a forum where people say what they think). Perhaps you would be better off in a quiet place devoid of people.

A luxury I don't have.

That's fine, I went back and looked. Lo and behold there was no explanation, no admittal of error and no sources claiming that monkeys mutate into humans. I am quite surprised that you consider your absolute lack of understanding of evolution as 'trivial', but perhaps to you it is. In that case I would advise you not start speaking about the subject matter as if you know anything about it.

Your advice has been..."noted" and filed.
It doesn't really change why I should care now does it?

Myles offered you the challenge to support your statement. In the response to that you refused on the basis that he is a "sick, contaminated individual" and "like a cancer". I would submit that "no, I wont accept the challenge" would have been better than getting all personal where you need not have done, or indeed just a retraction of your statement. Once again, nobody is going to kill you because you happened to be wrong. It seems pride got in the way.

An intresting theory.



I'd agree, but I didn't do such a thing. You unfortunately spent quite a while insulting Myles, his mother and childhood. So, shame on you yes? Or no?

Well some people beg for the abuse Miles just begs a bit louder.
Is this your way of begging for abuse aswell?



f you say so. Apparently you're not ready for adult conversation. When you think you are give me a pm and we'll talk.

AH!!! Ladies and Gentlemen...he gets it. Not so obtuse as we were led to believe.
An adult would indeed realize this is FAR from an adult conversation.

yes, the astral human prototype.



i understand evolution already... but i don't believe much in darwins physical evolution (natural selection), i believe in spirit (d)evolution. darwin didn't know much about spirits so his weak ideas couldn't explain how the eye could evolve.

So . if you know so much, how come you agreed that monkeys mutated into men ?

What is the connection between spirits and how the eye evolved ? This business with the eye is another of the stupid arguments used by Creationists who propogate rubbish. It has been answered many times.


I gave you a thoughtful response but all I get back is that you know all about it and Darwin couldn't explain how eyes evolved. I shall waste no more time on you because you seem determined to remain ignorant.

I gave you a thoughtful response but all I get back is that you know all about it and Darwin couldn't explain how eyes evolved. I shall waste no more time on you because you seem determined to remain ignorant.

sorry i didn't mean to be mean... but if you want to understand how all creatures evolved, you can't just read about darwins evolution, you have to read about the evolution which the nazis believed in.

sorry i didn't mean to be mean... but if you want to understand how all creatures evolved, you can't just read about darwins evolution, you have to read about the evolution which the nazis believed in.

I don't know about all Nazis but the prevailing views of those around Hitler related to astrology, hollow world teaching ( Hohlweltlehre) and other such nonsense.

Their only use for genetics was to use it as an excuse to murder millions of people the regard as inferior, Jews. Gypsies, the mentally impaired and so on.
THeir beliefs were in no way compatible with those of Darwin/

I don't know about all Nazis but the prevailing views of those around Hitler related to astrology, hollow world teaching ( Hohlweltlehre) and other such nonsense.

what i'm really trying to say is that... you have to read about the evolution which helena blavatsky was talking about, because hitler got all his crazy ideas from her. she knew how evolution really happened and she said that aryans were superior and they came from atlantis...

Their only use for genetics was to use it as an excuse to murder millions of people the regard as inferior, Jews.

but alice bailey said that jews were inferior. she said that they had bad karma because they killed christ.

what i'm really trying to say is that... you have to read about the evolution which helena blavatsky was talking about, because hitler got all his crazy ideas from her. she knew how evolution really happened and she said that aryans were superior and they came from atlantis...



but alice bailey said that jews were inferior. she said that they had bad karma because they killed christ.

If HItler got his crazy ideas from Madam Blavatsky, it follows that she, too. was crazy. Anything she said has no relevance to evolution.

The problem is that everyone feels they can expound with confidence on evolution without having studied the subject.

Saquist,

can you please cite a work on evolutionary theory where it states that monkeys mutate into men ?

Thanks :)