"Has anyone else noticed the public expressions of shame and contrition from the Korean-American community after the Virginia Tech shooting? Of course, no one blames this exemplary community for the actions of one nut. The Koreans are manifestly law-abiding and decent -- nipping at the heels of Italians as the greatest Americans and tied for second with the Cubans.
Indeed, I believe this marks the first time a Korean has killed anyone in the United States, not involving an automobile. Nonetheless, Korean congregations, community groups and the family members themselves are issuing statements of sorrow. Not "pleas for tolerance." But sorrow. Remorse. Remember those? They were big back in the day.

If the Koreans can do it, why can't the Muslims? What explains the lack of a Muslim guilt impulse -- so normal, as seen in the case of the saddened Koreans -- after dozens of terrorist attacks on Americans?"

Probably the same reason why the US has never apologised for its atrocities.

Also its strange you should consider him Korean when he lived for 14 of his 23 years in the US.

http://www.islamicity.com/articles/Articles.asp?ref=AM0109-335

Also its strange you should consider him Korean when he lived for 14 of his 23 years in the US.
I'm pretty sure he wasn't a US citizen. But even if he was, he'd still be Korean in the same sence that Tony Soprano is Italian.

Probably the same reason why the US has never apologised for its atrocities.

Also its strange you should consider him Korean when he lived for 14 of his 23 years in the US.
Is he an American citizen or a resident alien Korean?

As for atrocities, and glass houses... hows that dalit thingy working out for y'all ?

Your logic hurts my head.

Muslims include a lot of different ethnic groups. Koreans are from one peninsula in Asia. Muslims come from all over; Malaysia, Indonesia, Singapore, India, Pakistan, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Israel, Egypt, Sudan, Morocco, France, the UK, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, to name a few.

It makes as much sense for a Muslim to apologize for what other Muslims do as it does for a Christian to apologize for what other Christians do, despite the seperation of culture, language, nationality, and geography.

samcdkey

Also its strange you should consider him Korean when he lived for 14 of his 23 years in the US.

He wasn't born here, his family was here on a green card with residency status, his family never applied for citizenship, he never applied for citizenship, hence he was a Korean National.

Your logic hurts my head.

Muslims include a lot of different ethnic groups. Koreans are from one peninsula in Asia. Muslims come from all over; Malaysia, Indonesia, Singapore, India, Pakistan, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Israel, Egypt, Sudan, Morocco, France, the UK, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, to name a few.

It makes as much sense for a Muslim to apologize for what other Muslims do as it does for a Christian to apologize for what other Christians do, despite the seperation of culture, language, nationality, and geography.
Ha ha. Yes. I skipped lightly over the conflation of nationality and religiosity and, with the link (has anyone read it yet?), sought to address the meat of the matter. Which is that the assumption - it's nothing more - that Muslims feel only... glee? about acts of terrorism... is ludicrous.

Roman

It makes as much sense for a Muslim to apologize for what other Muslims do as it does for a Christian to apologize for what other Christians do, despite the seperation of culture, language, nationality, and geography.

But the Christians do apologize and condemn acts of violence that other Christian radicals commit, I will condemn any so called Christian radical that kills for the religion, I will condemn any so called Christian religious cult that abuses children, I will condemn any so called Christian radical that bombs a Abortion clinic, I will condemn any so called Christian White Power group that teaches race superiority, or war. I will do all of this, now lets see sam, ghost_007, an Norsefire do the same .

My now long-departed wife was a Muslim. Other Muslims made my wife's life intolerable.

I know for a fact that some Muslims are capable of great and very good things. I know that some other Muslims are also capable of the most despicable things.

I will never forgive, nor ever pass up an opportunity to make miserable, those Muslims of the type that made my wife miserable.

They taught, I listened.

Education works both ways.

I don't know why they would apologize - rediculous.

Why would American-Koreans have to go out of their way to issue statements for the shooting at V-Tech all because the shooter was Korean? I'll never go out of my way to apologize for the KKK or other white supremacy group all because I'm white. What those people did have nothing to do with me. All apologizing for the actions of others is like a form of racial political correctness -- something right-wingers hate, so why ya asking for it? All you're doing is giving the people that did the bad deed the attention they craved. And people wonder why things always turn into a racial "us vs them" conflict.

- N

The other day I saw on the local news, some white guy kidnapped a kid and another robbed a store. I'm gonna have to hold a town hall meeting and defend my race for the actions of these two men..

- N

You are a moron if you really do think your reasoning has any validity.*

Get your head checked jingoist.

*See Roman's post.

Both Koreans and Muslims are minorities in the USA and both have a sense of community. That's the angle BF was coming at this from. That said, I don't expect nor demand that Muslims apologize for something some arse holes in KSA did in the name of Religion.

I have met Muslims (this was before the war) that were really very happy for the war to start because their Imam had told them that Amercia was going to get smacked down and this war was a sign the end times were a nigh and bla bla bla .... typical religous end-of-the-World mubble jumble. Yes, they were really gleeful America was going to finally get it.

Well, many Muslims feel that America or Jews or anyone but them is the reason for their their woes so of course they are happy when The Man gets what's coming.

I also knew Americans that simply couldn't wait to put the smack down on those "rag-heads" and were very happy when the bombing of Afganistan started.

Us verses Them: It's very human

Michael

hi Buffalo,

thank you for starting the above thread.

Not sure where to go with thsi one but thought i'd pick you up on your comments if i could.


Roman



But the Christians do apologize and condemn acts of violence that other Christian radicals commit, I will condemn any so called Christian radical that kills for the religion, I will condemn any so called Christian religious cult that abuses children, I will condemn any so called Christian radical that bombs a Abortion clinic, I will condemn any so called Christian White Power group that teaches race superiority, or war. I will do all of this, now lets see sam, ghost_007, an Norsefire do the same .
You infer for the statement above and teh first post in the thread that muslims dont condem or apologise for vile actions caused by other so called muslims, is not RedArmy's link enough for you (pls see below), or do you want some more??

http://www.islamicity.com/articles/Articles.asp?ref=AM0109-335


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Both Koreans and Muslims are minorities in the USA and both have a sense of community. That's the angle BF was coming at this from. That said, I don't expect nor demand that Muslims apologize for something some arse holes in KSA did in the name of Religion.

I have met Muslims (this was before the war) that were really very happy for the war to start because their Imam had told them that Amercia was going to get smacked down and this war was a sign the end times were a nigh and bla bla bla .... typical religous end-of-the-World mubble jumble. Yes, they were really gleeful America was going to finally get it.

Well, many Muslims feel that America or Jews or anyone but them is the reason for their their woes so of course they are happy when The Man gets what's coming.

I also knew Americans that simply couldn't wait to put the smack down on those "rag-heads" and were very happy when the bombing of Afganistan started.

Us verses Them: It's very human

Michael


Good Points Michael, but there is probably a shit load of Americans Muslim or American non muslim who did not want to put the smack down on anyone also

Along with this there were probably loads of mulsims in the world which did not want ot put the smack down either.

basically what i understand you are saying is that you have these vile people who love war from all walks of life and including all dfifferent races and religions etc..

which i agree, there are always some evil fuckas out there.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
atke it ez
zak

basically what i understand you are saying is that you have these vile people who love war from all walks of life and including all dfifferent races and religions etc..

which i agree, there are always some evil fuckas out there.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
atke it ez
zakYes, basically. But, I wouldn't say they are evil per say. It's very human to want to blame someone for ones woes and it's also very human to seek revenge. Most people don't think about War as it is, killing, raping, disease, unbelievable pain and horrendous loss, ruined lives and broken families (not to mention the generation or three of psychologically damaged people). They see it as an idea. And this idea lets them take an impersonal viewpoint on the whole thing. Add to this the very basic notion of Us / Them and it's easy to convince even a normal person into feeling something akin to glee or satisfaction at war.

My one friend who was actually gleeful, I could hear it in his voice and this twinkle in his eyes, over the, then, coming war is one of the nicest people you could meet. He couldn't even work on mice in the lab because he couldn't sacrifice them I wrote him a glowing letter of rec and he was lucky enough to get into the Pharm program and will be dishing out pills in the near future :)


People love to romanticize war for some reason? Must be a primal instinct?

Michael

I think each Muslim on Earth should write a personal letter of apology to Buffalo Roam. Preferably written in blood, or the entrails of their first born.

nietzschefan

You are a moron if you really do think your reasoning has any validity.*
Get your head checked jingoist.
*See Roman's post.


Really? I don't expect the Korean to take responsibility for Chos action, but it was both a gracious thing, and a repudiation of Chos, actions, a condemnation of said actions, it was loud and clear to me, and the loud and clear condemnation is what seem to be missing from the Moslem Community, No every Moslem doesn't have to make a personnel apology, as Nickelodeon would want, but every Moslem should loudly and toughly condemn the killing of innocent civilian, children, women, and men, and the training and use of children in executions, as fighter, and bombings, and the racism taught by their versions of the white power neo nazi racist, and religious intolerance, I already condemn these actions, of any who do these things, in the any of the world's societies.

Also its strange you should consider him Korean when he lived for 14 of his 23 years in the US.We're just echoing the feelings of the Korean-American community, and of the Koreans themselves for that matter. They all seem to regard him as Korean so we just let it go at that. For the record, the point has been loudly and prominently made in the American press that this kid was a product of American culture and should be judged as an American, that the Koreans and Korean-Americans have nothing to apologize for. Sentiment is mixed but both sides of the issue are expressed.Why would American-Koreans have to go out of their way to issue statements for the shooting at V-Tech all because the shooter was Korean? I'll never go out of my way to apologize for the KKK or other white supremacy group all because I'm white. What those people did have nothing to do with me. All apologizing for the actions of others is like a form of racial political correctness -- something right-wingers hate, so why ya asking for it?Cultures have different values, something I hope everyone on SciForums is aware of. Koreans have a strong sense of community, quite the opposite of most Americans. They really do feel responsible for something one of them does.Every Moslem should loudly and toughly condemn the killing of innocent civilian, children, women, and men.Devout Muslims have a much stronger focus on Heaven that devout Christians do. Christianity and Judaism are both religions very much of this world, whereas Islam is a religion of the (hypothetical) next world. To a devout Muslim, the suffering of any person on earth is so transitory as to be virtually irrelevant to discourse. What matters is how they will fare in the afterlife.And the training and use of children in executions, as fighter, and bombings... and religious intolerance.But to devout Muslims the only way for a person to get into Heaven is to be a devout Muslim. People who are intractable to conversion are hopeless and will never get into Heaven, so it doesn't really matter how soon they die, their fate is sealed. What matters is that they not be allowed to pervert the spirits of the undecided (much less those who are already Muslims. Therefore it is important to get those people off the planet as quickly as possible before they do more harm. What we see as racism, intolerance, and terrorism is to them a perfectly noble, logical, and praiseworthy system of helping the maximum number of people accept Islam so they can go to Heaven. In their minds all of this is a blessing.I already condemn these actions, of any who do these things, in the any of the world's societies.This is the root of the dilemma. We are looking at this world, they are looking at the next.

after the Virginia Tech shooting?
Shooting? What shooting? People barely remember about it by now.

Fraggle Rocker

But to devout Muslims the only way for a person to get into Heaven is to be a devout Muslim. People who are intractable to conversion are hopeless and will never get into Heaven, so it doesn't really matter how soon they die, their fate is sealed. What matters is that they not be allowed to pervert the spirits of the undecided (much less those who are already Muslims. Therefore it is important to get those people off the planet as quickly as possible before they do more harm. What we see as racism, intolerance, and terrorism is to them a perfectly noble, logical, and praiseworthy system of helping the maximum number of people accept Islam so they can go to Heaven. In their minds all of this is a blessing.

And that is the problem, I have a very strong connection to the belief of the hereafter, but I don't take a knife to my neighbors throat because he don't convert, and I know no other Christian, who would condone such actions, it is forbidden by the Teachings of Jesus, also recognized as a Prophet by the Moslems, and I keep hearing from Moslems on this site that forced conversion is not supposed to be allowed by the teaching of the Prophet, and the Quran'
so why then if this is true of Quranic teaching don't we here a loud and clear condemnation of the actions of the Islamic Terrorist actions, they also believe that action taken in this world lead to damnation in the after life, so would not killing a person for not converting, condemn them to damnation, as it is against the law of the Quran' to do so? To train children to do these act not condemn the trainers to damnation, because they have broken the laws of the Quran' and corrupted the soul of a child?, and it still comes down to the fact that most of the people killed are innocents, and Moslems, so how does that make a way to salvation? and not speaking against evil, does that also not hurt the soul, of the believer? and make him unclean for salvation? and what of the debauchery that most of these suicide bombers commit before they kill, how does that speak to being Holy and deserving of heavens salvation?

You've answered your own questions, BR, with a level of reasoning that most Muslims certainly do not lack: Islam does not condone terrorism.

hypewaders

I don't ask for a apology, I ask for condemnation, and very few do. Why? does sam? or as most do, point fingers?

Fraggle Rocker



And that is the problem, I have a very strong connection to the belief of the hereafter, but I don't take a knife to my neighbors throat because he don't convert, and I know no other Christian, who would condone such actions, it is forbidden by the Teachings of Jesus, also recognized as a Prophet by the Moslems, and I keep hearing from Moslems on this site that forced conversion is not supposed to be allowed by the teaching of the Prophet, and the Quran'
so why then if this is true of Quranic teaching don't we here a loud and clear condemnation of the actions of the Islamic Terrorist actions, they also believe that action taken in this world lead to damnation in the after life, so would not killing a person for not converting, condemn them to damnation, as it is against the law of the Quran' to do so? To train children to do these act not condemn the trainers to damnation, because they have broken the laws of the Quran' and corrupted the soul of a child?, and it still comes down to the fact that most of the people killed are innocents, and Moslems, so how does that make a way to salvation? and not speaking against evil, does that also not hurt the soul, of the believer? and make him unclean for salvation? and what of the debauchery that most of these suicide bombers commit before they kill, how does that speak to being Holy and deserving of heavens salvation?

dear Buffalo,

I hope all is well with you

thank you for your analysis above.

muslims do condem such actions

dont get confused by criticism of the west being a non condemnation of the vile acts committed by al-queda and the Like.

As you know i am disgusted ( to put it lightly) with some of the acti0ons of these so called muslims, but i too can be disgusted by the actions of the british Governement for example, that though does not mean that i do not condem the terrorist though surely.

take care
zak

Probably the same reason why the US has never apologised for its atrocities.
who, or what, do you consider the US in this case?
and in a like vein, has india?

Also its strange you should consider him Korean when he lived for 14 of his 23 years in the US.
most people, including blacks, call black AFRICAN americans even though the blacks have lived here for generations.

"Has anyone else noticed the public expressions of shame and contrition from the Korean-American community after the Virginia Tech shooting? Of course, no one blames this exemplary community for the actions of one nut. The Koreans are manifestly law-abiding and decent -- nipping at the heels of Italians as the greatest Americans and tied for second with the Cubans.
Indeed, I believe this marks the first time a Korean has killed anyone in the United States, not involving an automobile. Nonetheless, Korean congregations, community groups and the family members themselves are issuing statements of sorrow. Not "pleas for tolerance." But sorrow. Remorse. Remember those? They were big back in the day.

If the Koreans can do it, why can't the Muslims? What explains the lack of a Muslim guilt impulse -- so normal, as seen in the case of the saddened Koreans -- after dozens of terrorist attacks on Americans?"

What about North Koreans? The ones allegedly with nukes.

leopold99

Originally Posted by samcdkey

Also its strange you should consider him Korean when he lived for 14 of his 23 years in the US.

The fact is that sam don't want to recognize the fact that he wasn't a American, (he wasn't born here, he never applied for citizenship, and he was never naturalized), it would interfere with her prejudges against everything American.

there are 5 solid pillars written in the Quran that define being a muslim:

1. To bear witness that there is none worthy of worship save Allah and that Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) is the Messenger of Allah.
2. To observe Prayer (Salat).
3. To Pay Zakat (Alms giving)
4. To perform the Pilgrimage to the House of Allah (Hajj).
5. To Observe fasting during Ramadhan." (Bukhari)

All the other stuff has some room for negotiation as interpreted by the believer himself or promoted by your local moderate/radical imam.

In the whole I think the Quran provides more potential ammunition for radical interpretations than say Korean Budhism, as the first reflects the ethics of a conquestador (Muhammed) and the second the ethics of a pacifist Buddha.