As for astrology..it works. Can it be proven. I think I can possibly convince people of the fact.

Go ahead...

Tell me:

1. When I die
2. Did I off myself?
3. Will I find another job

As for astrology..it works. Can it be proven. I think I can possibly convince people of the fact.

What exactly is the mechanism by which the stars and planets affect us?

It just seems strange that objects that are billions of miles and millions of light years away could have any possible effect on us, other than their twinkling. :D

Actually.. why did you put this thread in pseudoscience when you claim you can prove it ??

Are you religious ?

Billy:

Ok. Please present your proof that astrology works.

Moderator: please move this to the Astronomy and Cosmology forum as soon as the evidence has been shown. And would someone please submit that nomination for the Nobel Prize.

What exactly is the mechanism by which the stars and planets affect us?

It just seems strange that objects that are billions of miles and millions of light years away could have any possible effect on us, other than their twinkling. :D

Coincidence does not necessarily imply causation - nevertheless, it does not necessarily imply randomness either.

Can you not accept the possibility that being born in a certain month of the year could affect your personality, disposition and inclinations?
Time of the year affects what food you eat - therefore what nutrients your mother was injesting when she was pregnant - not to mention that it could affect what food you will eat when you transition to food.
The temprature outside could affect how much you were outdoors in the first few months in your life - which could affect how much sunlight you recieved and how much stimulation your brain recieved.
The height of the sun in the sky could also affect how much sunlight you recieve at critical times in your development.
Being indoors in cold weather could result in more close physical contact with parents during certain critical developmental periods.

The constellations in the sky signify different times of the year.
Just because Virgo is in a certain place in the sky on your birthday, doesn't imply the that the constellation affects you directly and personally in any way (though power of suggestion most certainly should not be ignored), however, being born in the beginning of the harvest season, and it being winter when you are ust a few months old, very well could.

If Bill get's grumpy at 5:30 PM every day in rush hour traffic, that doesn't necessarily mean that the angle of the sun is making him grumpy, but you could time it that way, couldn't you?

How much vitamin B did your mother recieve from the sun when she was pregnant?
How much exercise did she have?
How was her immune system?
The possibilities are endless.

Your surroundings, during different develeopmental periods, are crucial aspects of your physical, mental and emotional growth.

None of this, of course, proves that Astrology is "true", but arguing it can't be because the stars can't affect is certainly does nothing to disprove it either.
There is a possible "mechanism".

But not one astrologer has ever demonstrated the ability to make a valid prediction based on "star charts" and the nonsense they claim reveals information about the individual's future based on their birthdate. Moreover, each astrologer fails to consider adequately the astronomical bodies and matter that aren't visible but have more chance of influencing a single individual on Earth.

The only force that has ever been suggested that could fit the astrology claim is gravity. And there is far more gravitational pull from the physicians and nurses that deliver a baby than even the Moon or the Sun much less the other stars and planets.

Astrology is bunk. For those able to do a good cold read and convince the gullible, its a good money-maker.

Why is gravity or some other "force" needed?
Did you read my last two posts?

Please respond directly to them.

Tell me:

1. When I die
2. Did I off myself?
3. Will I find another job
I thought you were going to ask...

"Will I ever get laid!?!?!" :D

I thought you were going to ask...

"Will I ever get laid!?!?!" :D

You don't need to be an astrologer or psychic to answer that - he knows the answer.

As for astrology..it works. Can it be proven. I think I can possibly convince people of the fact.

Well?????

Several of us are waiting...

And here's a test case for you. I know the FULL life's story of an individual that was born on July 20 - tell me what your predictons for that individual would be / have been. If you dare to try. I already know all of the details covering over 30 years - have you got enough faith in your ability to match your predictions with the reality? I honestly doubt it.

Why is gravity or some other "force" needed?
Did you read my last two posts?

Please respond directly to them.

I did read your posts. However, you aren't representing the core claims of astrology with them. Astrologers claim that they can know, by the positions of stars and planets (and their various alignments and associations with each other) at the time of an individual's birth that they can predict that person's personality.

While I can agree that various physical things in nature can affect the development of the prenatal child, this is wholly different than claiming that the alignment of stars and planets at the moment of birth (regardless of whether the light of these objects are reaching the individual or not -presumably not since most people are born in hospitals in the western world) has predictive power over the individual's personality.

For that claim, what other force besides gravity has the ability to reach the individual? And even that force is dismissed with even the barest understanding of physics.

So, to again answer your question above, I *did* read your posts and found them off-topic since they had nothing, apparently, to do with the claims of astrology. The OP is claiming that he has "proof" that astrology works. It is to that claim I write, not the claim that there are many prenatal influences that might affect the development of the individual -none of which, by the way, have been correlated such that personality predictions can be reliably made.

My own prediction is: the OP will fail to prove that "astrology works."

What's a Christian? One who follows Christ? The Bible? The church?

Just because Otho is a flake, that doesn't mean ghosts do not exist.
(Did you see Beetlejuice?)

Lots of people claim lots of shit - that should reflect on the people alone.

I know for a fact that palm reading works - there's a real science to it - however, anyone who claims to be able to tell your future by reading your palms is a fool.

Most astrologers do not claim to be able to tell your future.

Let me ask you this simple question...
If someone claimed they could give you a personality analysis based on your birthday, and claimed that others born under your same sign had similar personalities (which change a bit depending upon which date they were born) - and nothing more - would you be as adamantly denying it?

Let me ask you this simple question...
If someone claimed they could give you a personality analysis based on your birthday, and claimed that others born under your same sign had similar personalities (which change a bit depending upon which date they were born) - and nothing more - would you be as adamantly denying it?

Yup - I would. :D There are FAR too many factors that go into determining one's personality - some of which are rather obvious: the amount of attention one gets from parents (and the extended family like grandparents, aunts, uncles, etc.), number of siblings (if any) finacial status of the family, personalities of teachers and classmates at school, attitudes of neighbors - the list is practically endless. Anything determined (if at all) by the position of celestial bodies at the moment of birth would have to be WAY down on that list. ;)

Anything determined (if at all) by the position of celestial bodies at the moment of birth would have to be WAY down on that list. ;)

Not determined by, signified by.
I didn't say anything about being determined by these things.
Did you read my posts about fetus and child development at different times of the year?

Not determined by, signified by.
I didn't say anything about being determined by these things.
Did you read my posts about fetus and child development at different times of the year?

Yes, I did. And I would agree that it might very well have some impact on physical development - but not on the development of personality. Besides, it's been a VERY long time now that most people (in the U.S., anyway) can have the exact same foods anytime of the year. Seasons make little difference in that. The same with indoor climate control. Few people take their infants outside before age one so I see no connection/relation to that either. Besides, the vast majority of kids today spend practically every hour of their lives inside. Exceptions, yes - but not very many anymore.

Good points.
Maybe that's why it's not as accurate as it once was. :D

Well there is Astrologgers, however thats pretty much Astronomy.

Admitted there is times where the planetry movement generates specific alignments that are all too important for certain men. Especially if they happen to be on a Mars mission since they wouldn't want to miss the planet.

But that I'm afraid is the only time that I can think of such alignments as being any real significance.

Coincidence does not necessarily imply causation - nevertheless, it does not necessarily imply randomness either.

Can you not accept the possibility that being born in a certain month of the year could affect your personality, disposition and inclinations?

That would be a possibility, if there were any reason to suggest such a thing.

Time of the year affects what food you eat - therefore what nutrients your mother was injesting when she was pregnant - not to mention that it could affect what food you will eat when you transition to food.

With the advent of huge supermarkets, we can eat pretty much the same thing year round, if we want.

But, if you're categorizing someone living in the US compared with someone living in Communist China, then there would be a difference in foods and possibly nutrients, although nutrients can be found in a variety of foods.

I suspect ones physical health might differ, which may lead to further mental complications. Is that what you meant?

The temprature outside could affect how much you were outdoors in the first few months in your life - which could affect how much sunlight you recieved and how much stimulation your brain recieved.
The height of the sun in the sky could also affect how much sunlight you recieve at critical times in your development.
Being indoors in cold weather could result in more close physical contact with parents during certain critical developmental periods.

Possibly, but those aren't the same effects as what Astrology claims; ie. the effect of planets, galaxies and stars great distances away. You're referring to effects of local temperatures, direct sunlight and physical contact with humans. Certainly, we should be able to make a clear distinction citing extreme differences when comparing?

The constellations in the sky signify different times of the year.
Just because Virgo is in a certain place in the sky on your birthday, doesn't imply the that the constellation affects you directly and personally in any way (though power of suggestion most certainly should not be ignored), however, being born in the beginning of the harvest season, and it being winter when you are ust a few months old, very well could.

Perhaps, but you would also agree there are millions of people who were born in that time of the year, with completely different personalities. In fact, I've met a number of people who have the same birthday as me, none were anything like me. Further, I actually met one person who was born on the same day and same year, and only a few hours earlier. We couldn't have been more different.

It would be hard pressed for most here to not have met others with the same birthdays. I'd like to hear their stories.

If Bill get's grumpy at 5:30 PM every day in rush hour traffic, that doesn't necessarily mean that the angle of the sun is making him grumpy, but you could time it that way, couldn't you?

It's not the time of day or the sun as to why Bill gets grumpy, it's the stress of getting home in rush hour traffic.

Here's one persons astrological forecast for someones birthday today born in 1980 created and chosen randomly from a google search. Can this be relevant to everyone living on the planet whose birthday is this day?

"By Mark Lerner for Astrology.com - Roll up your sleeves and get down to brass tacks. The Moon in earthy and meticulous Virgo places an emphasis on resolving health and dietary problems. Stock up on vitamins, fruit, veggies, seasonings, cereals, nuts and seeds. Consider using a juicer in order to maximize your absorption of trace minerals so vital to enhancing your immune system. Learn more about the benefit of medicinal herbs and advances in healing. As mentioned in yesterday's entry, maintain a cautionary disposition when it comes to romance due to an awkward, 150-degree link between Mars in Taurus and Juno in Libra (1:42AM PDT). Going overboard in any direction is not advised since the Sun makes an abrasive, 135-degree link to giant Jupiter (5:11AM PDT). It may be possible to transform this alignment into something more favorable - particularly in the realms of education, publishing and athletics. Nevertheless, actions based on pride and extreme egocentrism are bound to fail. Add a little humility to your multi-faceted personality. You have an excellent chance to increase productivity levels in your main fields of work today - courtesy of a Sun-Ceres 72-degree quintile pattern (11:16AM PDT). Be extra sensitive to maternal figures, elders and the disenfranchised. Enjoy a nature trek or visit to botanical gardens. Storm warnings are posted overnight due to another 150-degree association that tops the Mars-Juno bond from this morning: The Sun moves 150 degrees to distant Pluto tomorrow afternoon. While this Sun-Pluto interaction won't fully manifest until Thursday, its turbulent essence can infiltrate the psychic atmosphere this evening. Pushing people's buttons is not necessary. Express yourself in a kind-hearted manner. Board, card and word games are back in the spotlight."

http://astrology.yahoo.com/astrology/general/cosmicdaily

Here's one persons astrological forecast for someones birthday today born in 1980 created and chosen randomly from a google search. Can this be relevant to everyone living on the planet whose birthday is this day?
No. An astrological map doesn't consider just the sun sign. Depending on the hour you were born, you have a certain ascending, which completelychanges your map. Just the hour alone changes the whole face of the map. Then there are the years. Each year would have a completely different picture of the constellation, given the same day. Then there are the position of the planets, and where they are on the map. You have to take into account first in which constellation the planet "is", then you have to take into account the "house" the planet is according to the ascent, and then you have to take into account the relationships between the planets. And you can also take into account the poles of the moon, the poles of the earth and finally asteroids! THEN, you have the bigger picture.

Whether astrology is correct or not, it is certainly extremely detailed!

No. An astrological map doesn't consider just the sun sign. Depending on the hour you were born, you have a certain ascending, which completelychanges your map. Just the hour alone changes the whole face of the map. Then there are the years. Each year would have a completely different picture of the constellation, given the same day. Then there are the position of the planets, and where they are on the map. You have to take into account first in which constellation the planet "is", then you have to take into account the "house" the planet is according to the ascent, and then you have to take into account the relationships between the planets. And you can also take into account the poles of the moon, the poles of the earth and finally asteroids! THEN, you have the bigger picture.

Whether astrology is correct or not, it is certainly extremely detailed!

Before we should "consider" anything that you refer, please do explain exactly how any of it can affect anyone? What have those objects have to do with us here, other than gravity?

Its a very old and detailed "science" in India, but I have never looked into the particulars.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyotisha

Jyotiṣa (Sanskrit jyotiṣa, from jyótis- "light, heavenly body": also spelled Jyotish and Jyotisha in English) is the ancient Indian system of studying the movements of the heavenly bodies and divisions of time dependent thereon. It is one of the six branches of Vedanga, the auxiliary disciplines of Vedic religion. Jyotiṣa is also known as Indian astrology, Hindu astrology, and Vedic astrology.

The practice of Vedic astrology primarily relies on the visible or sidereal zodiac, which is different from the tropical zodiac used in Western astrology in that an ayanamsa adjustment is made for the gradual precession of the vernal equinox. The tropical zodiac is used in vedic astrology only predict the course of nature itself - as in weather, etc.

Philosophically, the Vedic system of astrology is one of the six disciplines of Vedanga. As such, Jyotish has historically been part of a continuous holistic approach to living and an integral practice emanating from this ancient spiritual tradition of India[citation needed]. Its purpose is to offer humanity a means to understand the role and expression of karma in individual and collective life

Its very easy to prove on a day to day level. I'm suggesting on my site and I think its self evident if you care to think deeply about it and use the most 'extreme' examples..hence..Sir Winston Churchill would be VERY inspiring..and so on..so its basic astrology in that Astrology at its simple level is split into 4 elements.

My premise is to be an 'inspiring' leader then you need to have more 'fiery' qualities than that of other elements. I use it for politicians for example..its difficult to be truly inspirational without some element of fire. I then take that premise and move it to extremes in a jocular way. I mean its just a hobby but a seriously studied hobby. I use it on my site and recieve the usual amount of interest mixed with scepticism. The more scepticism the better as far as I;m concerned.

The link is in the Smoking Room..so I'm quite libertarian.

http://pinkmelon.proboards82.com/index.cgi

Its very easy to prove on a day to day level.
Then do so.

I'm suggesting on my site and I think its self evident if you care to think deeply about it and use the most 'extreme' examples..hence..Sir Winston Churchill would be VERY inspiring..and so on..so its basic astrology in that Astrology at its simple level is split into 4 elements.
Astrology is about earth, air, fire and water?
Not the stars?

My premise is to be an 'inspiring' leader then you need to have more 'fiery' qualities than that of other elements. I use it for politicians for example..its difficult to be truly inspirational without some element of fire.
Of course, you'd have to show that "fire" as such exists...

The link is in the Smoking Room..so I'm quite libertarian.
Where in the smoking room?

Where?

Well its very guardedly hidden under the secret code of FIRE!

;-)

You didn't answer my questions :p

Actually one_raven might have a point here. Seasonality is a major factor in quantitative differentiation. It might sometimes be partially a masked effect of size or age or something, but there's no doubt it's there. Still, you couldn't use astrology to predict anything in a specific sense, although you might have a general trend in your disposition on the basis of seasonal origin. Then again, early seasonality really ought to be discarded with increasing age, like much of nongenetic maternal variance.

Its very easy to prove on a day to day level.

Hello? Billy? Are you there?

Yes, please do prove it. No one else has, so this would be a first.

Where?

Well its very guardedly hidden under the secret code of FIRE!

;-)

Ah, my apologies: when you said "link" I was looking for a link, rather than a couple of pages with specious charts and no supporting evidence...

As for astrology..it works.

Please give me a very specific prediction that proves it.

It's not the time of day or the sun as to why Bill gets grumpy, it's the stress of getting home in rush hour traffic.
That's exactly what I said - but it can be tracked by the sun, can't it?
Just because correlation does not equal causation, that does not mean that correlation is not useful.

Supermarkets??
Now you're stretching.
You sound more like an apologist than a skeptic.

Do you really think that seasons do not influence what people eat regardless of what is "available" where you live?
Most of the world does not have 24-hour supermarkets stocked with foods from around the world - and even where there IS...
How many people grill hot dogs and hamburgers on a regular basis in the winter?
People eat more starchy, more fatty and heavier food in the winter and more hot food.
Yes, you can buy strawberries year-round in most major metropolitan areas, but if you think eating habits, exercise habits and other behaviors are not influenced by the time of the year, you are foolish.

That's exactly what I said - but it can be tracked by the sun, can't it?

How, the sun appears at relative different positions at 5:30PM each day.

Supermarkets??
Now you're stretching.
You sound more like an apologist than a skeptic.

That merely demonstrates the availability of any kind of food one wishes to eat at any time of the year.

How many people grill hot dogs and hamburgers on a regular basis in the winter?

Plenty, me for one. Many people I know BBQ year round. Although, I usually grill better stuff than hot dogs and hamburgers.

People eat more starchy, more fatty and heavier food in the winter and more hot food.
Yes, you can buy strawberries year-round in most major metropolitan areas, but if you think eating habits, exercise habits and other behaviors are not influenced by the time of the year, you are foolish.

Ok, I'm foolish.

But, I swim, play hockey, football, tennis and a variety of other outdoor sports year round. I eat a wide variety of foods and am rarely influenced by seasonal foods, whatever that might be.

Again, food stores aren't like clothes stores in that they primarily sell seasonal goods. You get what you want, when you want.

Although, I don't normally see Egg Nog during summer.

But then, I can make it myself whenever I want. And I do. :D

But seriously, what the heck does that have to do with the claims of Astrology?

Where?

Well its very guardedly hidden under the secret code of FIRE!

;-)

Which server then Billy? Only Fire code I know of is "Firewall"

Ah, my apologies: when you said "link" I was looking for a link, rather than a couple of pages with specious charts and no supporting evidence...

It's nothing, really. I just spent a full five minutes reading everything there and it was a total waste of my time. :bugeye:

Before we should "consider" anything that you refer, please do explain exactly how any of it can affect anyone? What have those objects have to do with us here, other than gravity?
I was just informing you that astrology is not all about the sun sign... :rolleyes:

I was just informing you that astrology is not all about the sun sign...

It's all about mindless entertainment. Yes, I know, thanks. :p

I demand answers to my questions, I demand'th them!

What questions?

Hello? Billy? Are you there?

Yes, please do prove it. No one else has, so this would be a first.

Yes sure...gimme someone with a bit of a fire and brimstone Billy Graham/Margaret Thatcher/Sir Winston Churchillian...character and away we go.

Its all very very simple. Lets seee some imagination for once insteead of hidebound scientific shackles and geeks measuring and counting grains of sand.


Bring it on! :))

Yes sure...gimme someone with a bit of a fire and brimstone Billy Graham/Margaret Thatcher/Sir Winston Churchillian...character and away we go.
Winston Churchillian?
Who he?

Its all very very simple. Lets seee some imagination for once insteead of hidebound scientific shackles and geeks measuring and counting grains of sand.
Bring it on! :))
You missed the point.
You're supposed to show us why you believe it's scientific, and THEN we take you apart.

You made the claim: back it up or shut up.

Aha so you DO lack all imagination!

Hardly.
Read the rules.
You made the claim.
You provided a "link" that gave unsupported "charts".
No evidence, no support, no data.
So we have to take your word for it?
You're already resorting to wounded claims we lack imagination because we won't provide your evidence for you?
Woowoo.

Its all very very simple. Lets seee some imagination for once insteead of hidebound scientific shackles and geeks measuring and counting grains of sand.

Why didn't you just say so from the get go that it's all in your imagination and save everyone the trouble of responding to your make believe?

Isn't this the Pseudoscience forum?

Ive read everything in the smoke room, just wondering... is the evidence supposed to be in there ???? I sure didnt see it.
And why is it that you can only use it public figures ??
Furthermore, it seems you can only say how much 'fire' someone has and nothing more. Thats exactly why you cant do it for us because you dont get to study us on tv.
Im sorry but its all just a big load of bull.

And you migth at least want to explain the charts to us... what does fire, water, earth etc mean ?

As for astrology..it works. Can it be proven. I think I can possibly convince people of the fact.

Please try to convince me, you havent even tried yet.

Yes, I did. And I would agree that it might very well have some impact on physical development - but not on the development of personality. Besides, it's been a VERY long time now that most people (in the U.S., anyway) can have the exact same foods anytime of the year. Seasons make little difference in that. The same with indoor climate control. Few people take their infants outside before age one so I see no connection/relation to that either. Besides, the vast majority of kids today spend practically every hour of their lives inside. Exceptions, yes - but not very many anymore.

Your over complicating the issue, these slight environmental factors are well know and rather hackneyed. In short they are extraneous re. astrology although they may be of some interest sociologically.

Its well known that athletes tend to be born in sept/oct and there is a very slight benefit in children being the oldest members in the class. This is hardly rocket science...in many cases pupils are almost 1 yr older than some other pupils...it follow they have a slight advantage.

Big deal. Is this an important factor in procreating:))

No. Its a rather trivial point. My nephew and neice are both top of their class and both are born in july - one on july 4th. The advantage is very slight and I'm not altogether sure what it has got to do with the topic.

and I'm not altogether sure what it has got to do with the topic.

We have a topic?
Not yet we don't.

And you migth at least want to explain the charts to us... what does fire, water, earth etc mean ?

First let set aside sunsign astrology. The fact is that it only came into vogue around 1920 in an effort to sell newpapers. The effect is negligible but apparent to a sharp eyed observer. Without a working knowledge of astrology it isn't apparent but nevertheless lets get it out of the way once and for all.

You'd agree that Canadians are slightly different in character than Americans. Even taking environmental factors out of the equation we'd perhaps expect the Americans to be a tad more extrovert and gung ho than the average Canadian. However its a huge generalisation and I am almost as likely to find an extrovert Canadian as I am an introverted American. Sunsigns work in the exactly the same way. The difference is too slight although an astute astrolger can turn it to favour. For example if someone says show me a Leo then I'd make sure that I;d make sure AS MANY PLANETS AS POSSIBLE are in Leo. I use the rapier truths of astrology to my advantage. In other words..I CHOOSE the ground to do battle on. As any good war leader would do. The cards are stacked in my favour.

This is only fair - I am by all accounts the underdog here. But by doing so I know I can defeat the scientist. In fact if the rather bumptious Dickie Dawkins came on her to argue the point I could swat him aside with some ease.

Why concentrate on the Elements.

Again the cards are stacked in my favour. I can use EXTREME examples. Famous people with a lot of Fire are Fiery and Inspirational...whereas in contrast people with lots of Water are more introverted and ruled by emotion.

The scientists dont like this. I've wrong footed them and they are out of their depth.

Oh but you can't use exetreme examples...thats cheating.

ROFL...in what way you poor dears!

We have a topic?
Not yet we don't.

Well not to the cloth eared..no.

... and there is a very slight benefit in children being the oldest members in the class.

In regards to competing with younger lesser developed children?

Sometimes the youngest in the class have to compete more than the older ones for this reason, after all they are made to develop quicker if just trying to stay at the same level. Technically you could suggest the younger children although lesser developed in comparison to the older children of their year are made to be more intelligent to keep up or the strain can cause psychiatric issues.

(Which pretty much undermines your point)

The topic itself is very simple, You claim some magical sorcery to how everybody on this planet can be mathematically calculated with absurdly abstract devices. For instance crystal balls, Reading tea leaves, Reading animal entrails, Reading someones Hand, Seeing which way the die/bones fall or how Cards relate to your interpretation not to forget the old classic in this instance Astrology utilising birthsign and Star positions to indentify how a persons life will live out. (Which is root is of lesser Cult religions, lesser being as not so mainstream in it's development).

Once upon a time, it might of been possible to shake your mojo at us and assume you'd transpire fear of the gods however mankind has learned a new affinity and that itself is the transpiration of the collection of knowledge in the form of sciences. What old school misinterpretations that lead to fear are slowly being wiped out with only the disinformed and those that feel their luck is thin and in need of help continue to believe is such fallacies.

This is not just my opinion and this is why people ask of proof, not some mumbo-jumbo to keep people guessing. If you have something to quantify then do so, otherwise don't prove your ignorance here.

Ive read everything in the smoke room, just wondering... is the evidence supposed to be in there ???? I sure didnt see it.
And why is it that you can only use it public figures ??
Furthermore, it seems you can only say how much 'fire' someone has and nothing more. Thats exactly why you cant do it for us because you dont get to study us on tv.
Im sorry but its all just a big load of bull.

What is it you don't happen to agree with - specifically rather than mere pompous airy dismissal so popular with arrogant sceptics.

Like Pr. Charles..I'm all ears!

In regards to competing with younger lesser developed children?

Sometimes the youngest in the class have to compete more than the older ones for this reason, after all they are made to develop quicker if just trying to stay at the same level. Technically you could suggest the younger children although lesser developed in comparison to the older children of their year are made to be more intelligent to keep up or the strain can cause psychiatric issues.

(Which pretty much undermines your point)

The topic itself is very simple, You claim some magical sorcery to how everybody on this planet can be mathematically calculated with absurdly abstract devices. For instance crystal balls, Reading tea leaves, Reading animal entrails, Reading someones Hand, Seeing which way the die/bones fall or how Cards relate to your interpretation not to forget the old classic in this instance Astrology utilising birthsign and Star positions to indentify how a persons life will live out. (Which is root is of lesser Cult religions, lesser being as not so mainstream in it's development).

Once upon a time, it might of been possible to shake your mojo at us and assume you'd transpire fear of the gods however mankind has learned a new affinity and that itself is the transpiration of the collection of knowledge in the form of sciences. What old school misinterpretations that lead to fear are slowly being wiped out with only the disinformed and those that feel their luck is thin and in need of help continue to believe is such fallacies.

This is not just my opinion and this is why people ask of proof, not some mumbo-jumbo to keep people guessing. If you have something to quantify then do so, otherwise don't prove your ignorance here.

Well re. the youngest having to work harder. Your putting words into my mouth that I didnt say so maybe you should re-read the post. I merely suggest those kids are the exception because they are very intelligent. It runs in the family:)

Your merely proving an ignorance of astrology which is a qualititative science. However you cannot deny the proof of the pudding. In EVERY case the person who inspires through fiery rhetoric (for good or ill) MUST by definition be of a fiery element. This is written in stone.

No amount of scientific wriggling by a Dawkins or a lesser amateur from a forum can possibly disprove the FACTS.

He may complain about the ingredients or the way its made..but if the Pudding flies of the shelves then who has got the recipe correct?

Speaking of rhetoric, do you plan on offering any of this evidence you spoke so confidently of, or are you going to continue with thinly veiled insults and innuendo?

You said you can prove it.
Do so.

I'll volunteer.
What do you need?
Birthdate? Time? Location? What?

Credit card number.

Well re. the youngest having to work harder. Your putting words into my mouth that I didnt say so maybe you should re-read the post. I merely suggest those kids are the exception because they are very intelligent. It runs in the family:)

Your merely proving an ignorance of astrology which is a qualititative science. However you cannot deny the proof of the pudding. In EVERY case the person who inspires through fiery rhetoric (for good or ill) MUST by definition be of a fiery element. This is written in stone.

No amount of scientific wriggling by a Dawkins or a lesser amateur from a forum can possibly disprove the FACTS.

He may complain about the ingredients or the way its made..but if the Pudding flies of the shelves then who has got the recipe correct?

I have seen things that you and your ilk will never truly understand, mainly because you are like the mimicking monkey trying to capsulate what the scientific world does.

For instance a person picks up a mobile phone and talks to someone on the other end, the mimicking monkey doesn't understand the science behind the phone or understand about the person on the other end but he will proceed to pickup the phone and chatter to his hearts content.

Astrology is much the same, While some were going about early astronomy there would have been those chattering monkeys just not getting it.

Credit card number.

Shouldn't HE be able to give ME that?

I was born September 18th, 1971 at 7:46 PM in Passaic, NJ.
The youngest of 4 to a pair of Scorpios.

What's my credit card number?

What's my credit card number?

Private
Silly to show on the internet
Longer than 3 digits
Something Nigerian 419ers would love to have
Something that could be got through a couple of methods (none linked to Astrology)

419ers?

I bet it has a 9 in it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advance_fee_fraud

No amount of scientific wriggling by a Dawkins or a lesser amateur from a forum can possibly disprove the FACTS.



Astrology is so generalized that a reading applies to 99.9% of known idiots . FACT!!

What is it you don't happen to agree with - specifically rather than mere pompous airy dismissal so popular with arrogant sceptics.

Like Pr. Charles..I'm all ears!

You havent actually shown us anything... how could we disagree ?
Im with one_raven, ill volunteer too. Tell me what you need.

This whole astrology bit is nothing but hokum intended for the ignorant and the superstitious. It has much more in common with witchcraft and voodoo than with anything even close to being science.

First let set aside sunsign astrology. The fact is that it only came into vogue around 1920 in an effort to sell newpapers. The effect is negligible but apparent to a sharp eyed observer. Without a working knowledge of astrology it isn't apparent but nevertheless lets get it out of the way once and for all.

You'd agree that Canadians are slightly different in character than Americans. Even taking environmental factors out of the equation we'd perhaps expect the Americans to be a tad more extrovert and gung ho than the average Canadian. However its a huge generalisation and I am almost as likely to find an extrovert Canadian as I am an introverted American. Sunsigns work in the exactly the same way. The difference is too slight although an astute astrolger can turn it to favour. For example if someone says show me a Leo then I'd make sure that I;d make sure AS MANY PLANETS AS POSSIBLE are in Leo. I use the rapier truths of astrology to my advantage. In other words..I CHOOSE the ground to do battle on. As any good war leader would do. The cards are stacked in my favour.

This is only fair - I am by all accounts the underdog here. But by doing so I know I can defeat the scientist. In fact if the rather bumptious Dickie Dawkins came on her to argue the point I could swat him aside with some ease.

Why concentrate on the Elements.

Again the cards are stacked in my favour. I can use EXTREME examples. Famous people with a lot of Fire are Fiery and Inspirational...whereas in contrast people with lots of Water are more introverted and ruled by emotion.

The scientists dont like this. I've wrong footed them and they are out of their depth.

Oh but you can't use exetreme examples...thats cheating.

ROFL...in what way you poor dears!

I dont get how this explains the charts.

Shouldn't HE be able to give ME that?

I was born September 18th, 1971 at 7:46 PM in Passaic, NJ.
The youngest of 4 to a pair of Scorpios.

What's my credit card number?

I dunno. I've read dozens of astrology books and never seen anyone claim they could get credit cards numbers from people's charts. Perhaps you are responding to someone who did. They are then a bad representative of astrology.

This whole astrology bit is nothing but hokum intended for the ignorant and the superstitious. It has much more in common with witchcraft and voodoo than with anything even close to being science.

By what scientific method did you draw this conclusion?

Astrology is so generalized that a reading applies to 99.9% of known idiots . FACT!!

Not a fact. Sun sign astrology is very general. An in depth reading taking into account even just the basic 'planets' is vastly more specific.

I dunno. I've read dozens of astrology books and never seen anyone claim they could get credit cards numbers from people's charts. Perhaps you are responding to someone who did. They are then a bad representative of astrology.

:D

Don't waste your time on me and my silly joke.
I am not one who has said it's hogwash.
Not only is the jury still out with me, I spent some time in this thread explaining how it could possibly "work".

For that claim, what other force besides gravity has the ability to reach the individual? And even that force is dismissed with even the barest understanding of physics.


He did address this issue. It is not a causal relationship. The baby and the planetary pattern are part of one pattern.

An in depth reading taking into account even just the basic 'planets' is vastly more specific.
:frust:
....And vastly more wrong also, yes?

Look enough of the usual bullshit. Put up or shut up already!

The scientists dont like this. I've wrong footed them and they are out of their depth.

Oh but you can't use exetreme examples...thats cheating.

ROFL...in what way you poor dears!

:crazy:

Chyldyshe = Childish?

:crazy:

Chyldyshe = Childish?

:eek: I didn't even catch that!
I was reading Chill-Dish.

Sock?

Not determined by, signified by.
I didn't say anything about being determined by these things.
Did you read my posts about fetus and child development at different times of the year?

one_raven
One of the fundamental assumptions of science is that it is best to assume two things are DISconnected unless otherwise proven. The people you were arguing with are so used to this assumption they do not notice it and when it is pointed out, laugh and think it needs no justification. Other people who come from systems where CONNECTION is seen as fundamental are much more likely to notice and respect intuitive connections between things. The first group thinks in terms of Newtonian causation - see their arguements - rather than other kinds of correlations. Science has to some degree found - for example in QM - that the universe has non-local connections. But the trickle down of such ideas is very slow and most people look out at world they think is Newtonian. From this smug posture they view astrologers and shamans and others as naive.

They have no idea that they have a culture and a religion based on assumptions. They think that only other people have assumptions. this thread seems to be winding down into nothingness, but I appreciated your shot at opening some eyes at the beginning of the thread so I tossed this in.

:frust:
....And vastly more wrong also, yes?

Look enough of the usual bullshit. Put up or shut up already!

I've done readings for scientists and other skeptics and they have found that their assumptions were incorrect.

If your interested call up astrologers in your area and ask them who they admire. You get a number of hits on one astrologer, try them out.

See I could give a shit if you believe. I just wanted to point out that some of your assumptions were incorrect.

You presented a theory that the readings were so general they fit 99% of the population. This is not true and just shows your ignorance.

I've done readings for scientists and other skeptics and they have found that their assumptions were incorrect.

If your interested call up astrologers in your area and ask them who they admire. You get a number of hits on one astrologer, try them out.

See I could give a shit if you believe. I just wanted to point out that some of your assumptions were incorrect.

You presented a theory that the readings were so general they fit 99% of the population. This is not true and just shows your ignorance.

Look you dickhead, try to keep up. There is no assumption made. It's a play on unscientific claims, like domestos whose slogan is "kills 99.9% of known germs, fact!"

http://www.badscience.net/?p=139

I use the rapier truths of astrology to my advantage.
The rapier truths of astrology?
The blind meanderings of woowoos, you mean.

This is only fair - I am by all accounts the underdog here. But by doing so I know I can defeat the scientist.
Then do so: post something worth reading.

The scientists dont like this. I've wrong footed them and they are out of their depth.
Not so far.

Oh but you can't use exetreme examples...thats cheating.
Use whichever examples you like, but you still have to show it applies.

Your merely proving an ignorance of astrology which is a qualititative science.
Incorrect. Astrology is not a science at all, qualitative or quantitative.

However you cannot deny the proof of the pudding. In EVERY case the person who inspires through fiery rhetoric (for good or ill) MUST by definition be of a fiery element. This is written in stone.
Circular logic.
Bad reasoning.

No amount of scientific wriggling by a Dawkins or a lesser amateur from a forum can possibly disprove the FACTS.
Then show us some FACTS.

He may complain about the ingredients or the way its made..but if the Pudding flies of the shelves then who has got the recipe correct?
You've shown neither pudding NOR recipe so far.

<< Look you dickhead, try to keep up. There is no assumption made. It's a play on unscientific claims, like domestos whose slogan is "kills 99.9% of known germs, fact!" >>

I see we have some intellectuals of the board!

<< Circular logic.
Bad reasoning. >>

In what respect, Olli...and don't reply 'in every respect' . Lets have a few specifics rather than rabid name calling which is really a sad reflection on the fundamentalist approach of many scientists.

However you cannot deny the proof of the pudding. In EVERY case the person who inspires through fiery rhetoric (for good or ill) MUST by definition be of a fiery element. This is written in stone.

You claim they "must be of a fiery element" because they are of a fiery character: you have yet to show that this "fiery element" exists and has an influence/ effect on people.
They're fiery because they're fiery?
Doesn't quite cut it...

I have seen things that you and your ilk will never truly understand


Amazing. What are these great wonders you have seen that our 'ilk' will never see?

All I know is that you beginning to sound like a rather pompous and silly human being.

You claim they "must be of a fiery element" because they are of a fiery character: you have yet to show that this "fiery element" exists and has an influence/ effect on people.
They're fiery because they're fiery?
Doesn't quite cut it...

Its a shorthand for a number of generalisations that we all carry to a degree. Therefore to glean any real meaning its necessary to make it glaringly obvious to the few, already brainwashed posters on here it has to be taken to an extreme. In other words..one element must be totally dominant over others etc..

Theres a saying "There are none so blind as those that will not see". It should be emblazoned on top of this forum for all to read and then maybe they'd attach some ordered thoughts prior to putting pen to paper of type in this case.

So you're still posting rhetoric instead of your proofs and facts?

... make it glaringly obvious to the few, already brainwashed posters on here...

"There are none so blind as those that will not see". It should be emblazoned on top of this forum for all to read and then maybe they'd attach some ordered thoughts prior to putting pen to paper of type in this case.

Wow, 35 posts and this guys already insulting everyone. Nice work, Childish.

<< Look you dickhead, try to keep up. There is no assumption made. It's a play on unscientific claims, like domestos whose slogan is "kills 99.9% of known germs, fact!" >>

I see we have some intellectuals of the board!

If you and your socks come on here rubbishing science and calling people ignorant, dont expect all smiles and thank yous.

You have shown absolute disrespect to science in this thread along with empty claims.

Me and a couple of lads gonna take him outside and read him the riot act; might stamp on his head while we're at it.

As for astrology..it works.

Please give me a very specific prediction that proves it.

*bump* we're still waiting. If you cannot perform, we'll have to presume you are a liar.

The only horoscope worth reading is the one put out by The Onion.

Capricorn: (Dec. 22-Jan. 19)
You will be bilndsided by a disaster that any decent system for predicting the future should have been able to warn you about.

If you and your socks come on here rubbishing science and calling people ignorant, dont expect all smiles and thank yous.

You have shown absolute disrespect to science in this thread along with empty claims.

There hasn't been any disrespect for science from me, simply the necessary need to cut it back down to size. Reason is all well and good in its place but at all times it is merely the servant to Wisdom. This is something well known amongst the Ancients from Plato to Aristotle. We have to get back to that mindset and recognise that science is essential but should also know its place. To arrogantly suggest that you are about to reveal the Theory of Everything and then fail miserably is just one of many examples.

The more questions answered by science the more questions that emerge..its a hydra that mere science cannot dispel. But how could one decry it when reAsoning is required merely to set the DVD recorder. However, despite its uses reasoning doesnt present us with a happy home.

Which is the superior need?

Reason is all well and good in its place but at all times it is merely the servant to Wisdom.
Define "reason"; define "wisdom".

To arrogantly suggest that you are about to reveal the Theory of Everything and then fail miserably is just one of many examples.
Who did that?
To arrogantly announce that you "can possibly convince people of the fact" that "astrology works", and then fail to do so (or even provide any support for this assertion is also not good.

The more questions answered by science the more questions that emerge..its a hydra that mere science cannot dispel.
And the solution would be...?

But how could one decry it when reAsoning is required merely to set the DVD recorder.
Or just follow the instructions.

There hasn't been any disrespect for science from me, simply the necessary need to cut it back down to size. Reason is all well and good in its place but at all times it is merely the servant to Wisdom. This is something well known amongst the Ancients from Plato to Aristotle. We have to get back to that mindset and recognise that science is essential but should also know its place. To arrogantly suggest that you are about to reveal the Theory of Everything and then fail miserably is just one of many examples.

The more questions answered by science the more questions that emerge..its a hydra that mere science cannot dispel. But how could one decry it when reAsoning is required merely to set the DVD recorder. However, despite its uses reasoning doesnt present us with a happy home.

Which is the superior need?

Your sales pitch doesn't work on me or any other self respecting scientist Im afraid. May I recommend either sticking to the scientifically illiterate, or showing that which you claim is actual fact, is indeed so, in accordence with scientific quantification?

Alert! Scientists on the loose in Pseudoscience forum!!!!

Your sales pitch doesn't work on me or any other self respecting scientist Im afraid. May I recommend either sticking to the scientifically illiterate, or showing that which you claim is actual fact, is indeed so, in accordence with scientific quantification?

In others words you're ducking out.

One down, lots to go.

In others words you're ducking out.

One down, lots to go.

Not everyone knows how to talk to an astrologer.

How do you draw up a chart?

In others words you're ducking out.

One down, lots to go.

No! you are ducking out on your promise to us:

As for astrology..it works. Can it be proven. I think I can possibly convince people of the fact.


..............Do it for crying out loud!

A claim and 6 pages of no supportive evidence. That is 6 pages of supportive evidence that Billy Chyldyshe is a liar.

However, despite its uses reasoning doesnt present us with a happy home.

Which is the superior need?

It would appear that for you, delusion doth make a happy home and is the superior need.

Not everyone knows how to talk to an astrologer.

How do you draw up a chart?

Thats the whole point...you don't need to do anything but come up with a person in the public eye who negates the entire thing. I'm not going into the elements because theyre readily found all over the internet so why bother and it will become apparent anyhow.

Fire is the most easily spotted so its best to stick to that. How its used is another matter. Al Gore doesnt come across as particularly inspiring but it important not to take it to literally. He does hold some passionate beliefs and he is also someone who see's himself as a leader which is why leaders tend to have at least a fair dollop of fire element. It wouldnt..as in Hitler..be unusual though to find them entirely difficient in other qualities.

Its merely a case of plucking a well known personality out of the air. I then win the point again...and so it continues...I keep winning and the scientists keep losing.

They have to lose because these are immutable laws - they cannot be wrong unless someone made a huge mistake writing out the birth certificate or in ther ways (which may account for 2-5% but nothing significant enough to spoil the evidence.

Thats the whole point...you don't need to do anything but come up with a person in the public eye who negates the entire thing. I'm not going into the elements because theyre readily found all over the internet so why bother and it will become apparent anyhow.
So you're not going to actually offer any rationale?
We have to do your work for you?
Hardly.
How the f*ck can we come up with anything that negates the entire thing when you haven't shown how it's derived or applied?
You don't have the first idea of what science is.

Fire is the most easily spotted so its best to stick to that. How its used is another matter. Al Gore doesnt come across as particularly inspiring but it important not to take it to literally. He does hold some passionate beliefs and he is also someone who see's himself as a leader which is why leaders tend to have at least a fair dollop of fire element. It wouldnt..as in Hitler..be unusual though to find them entirely difficient in other qualities.
So it's a matter of interpretation?
If it's not taken literally how is it science?
It's either true or it isn't.

Its merely a case of plucking a well known personality out of the air. I then win the point again...and so it continues...I keep winning and the scientists keep losing.
Nope, it's a case of merely plucking bollocks out thin air.
Win?
Oh yeah, you're delusional.

They have to lose because these are immutable laws - they cannot be wrong unless someone made a huge mistake writing out the birth certificate or in ther ways (which may account for 2-5% but nothing significant enough to spoil the evidence.
Immutable laws that are open to interpretation and not taken literally?
Evidence? Where?


Cesspool please, I thought we might have had something here, but it turns out be another fruit cake troll that can't even be bothered to back up his own arguments.
I'm done.

I'll see if I can use a random example of someone who's birthday it is and is someone in the public eye.

http://www.astrotheme.fr/en/dominantes/d_4/m5Qu4AKVRWs5.png

Now needless to say he isn't in politics but he is a natural leader than a follower. All the personality stuff is the embroidery of the chart. This element stuff takes seconds whilst the rest takes ages.

I mean even Dickie Dawkins has a fiery chart but with him it merely descends into arrogance and delusions or grandeur.

And if 'memes' aren't as much fantasy as faeries dancing in thee garden I dont know what is:))

And Al Gores..

http://www.astrotheme.fr/en/dominantes/d_4/826ua2krM2T3.png

There seems to be a few people confused by the intricacy of the pics so to make things clear FIRE is coloured RED.

:))

HOW do you obtain these charts ?? Please explain.

Well your obviously overly fiery because you keep losing your rag every five munutes so you'd be good case study actually. Whats your birth time..do you have a mother? Can you ask her?

<< How the f*ck can we come up with anything that negates the entire thing when you haven't shown how it's derived or applied? >>

Its such a silly nonsensical reply. Dont you understand that you merely need to think up a famous person in any field and throw it up in the air so as to disprove the theory. Is that beyond you?
.

And Al Gores..

http://www.astrotheme.fr/en/dominantes/d_4/826ua2krM2T3.png

There seems to be a few people confused by the intricacy of the pics so to make things clear FIRE is coloured RED.

:))

Where's the prediction of Al Gores future that can be verified as coming true? Any Richard can say he has a firey aspect as he is a politician.

Well your obviously overly fiery because you keep losing your rag every five munutes so you'd be good case study actually. Whats your birth time..do you have a mother? Can you ask her?

<< How the f*ck can we come up with anything that negates the entire thing when you haven't shown how it's derived or applied? >>

Its such a silly nonsensical reply. Dont you understand that you merely need to think up a famous person in any field and throw it up in the air so as to disprove the theory. Is that beyond you?
.

You mean me ?
may 4th 1977 at 10:15 am

HOW do you obtain these charts ?? Please explain.

They are explained all over the internet.

Do you mean which site provides the actual picture of the elements?

Why is it important?

You mean me ?
may 4th 1977 at 10:15 am

Are you the poster who keeps ranting and swearing or is it someone else?

<< Where's the prediction of Al Gores future that can be verified as coming true? Any Richard can say he has a firey aspect as he is a politician. >>

Crikey! I've already got a convert...this chap is already convinced that all political leaders have a fiery aspect. Well done.

Are you the poster who keeps ranting and swearing or is it someone else?

Uhm that wasnt me i guess.

It matters where you got the charts, because it matters how they are made. Seems to me you dont know how they are made. If thats true how can you rely on them, for all you know someone just made them up.

<< Where's the prediction of Al Gores future that can be verified as coming true? Any Richard can say he has a firey aspect as he is a politician. >>

Crikey! I've already got a convert...this chap is already convinced that all political leaders have a fiery aspect. Well done.

If you ever fail to scam desperate old ladies I suggest you take up standup comedy.:)

Chart for B. Chyldyshe;

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b399/MrCreak/Chart1.jpg

Its such a silly nonsensical reply. Dont you understand that you merely need to think up a famous person in any field and throw it up in the air so as to disprove the theory. Is that beyond you?
Since you haven't had the decency to explain what these elements are, how they're measured how they apply can you please (again) explain exactly how they are derived and applied.
I don't have the theory - you do, therefore you have to show us how it's arrived at.
If we don't know how it's obtained then what is to stop you (as you seem to be doing) just inventing a chart based on your knowledge of that person as it stands, with no relation whatsoever to their date and time of birth?
Is that beyond you?

<< Where's the prediction of Al Gores future that can be verified as coming true? Any Richard can say he has a firey aspect as he is a politician. >>

Crikey! I've already got a convert...this chap is already convinced that all political leaders have a fiery aspect. Well done.

I was actually using the word fiery to mean volatile BTW. As in a fiery redhead:p

Yes its fascinating isn't it. I take it that some of the Americans here are fans of George Dubya the cross-eyed Texan warmonger, unelected, inarticulate, who epitomises the arrogance of American foreign policy. So for all the yanks here placate yourselves with further evidence that he does at least have fire well represented.

http://www.astrotheme.fr/en/dominantes/d_4/y4VM3va3rRVY.png

Uhm that wasnt me i guess.

It matters where you got the charts, because it matters how they are made. Seems to me you dont know how they are made. If thats true how can you rely on them, for all you know someone just made them up.

No its was Oli.

Seemingly he can't remember his birthdate. Try looking at a birth certificate, Ol!

Yes its fascinating isn't it. I take it that some of the Americans here are fans of George Dubya the cross-eyed Texan warmonger, unelected, inarticulate, who epitomises the arrogance of American foreign policy. So for all the yanks here placate yourselves with further evidence that he does at least have fire well represented.

http://www.astrotheme.fr/en/dominantes/d_4/y4VM3va3rRVY.png

Does a combination of a lot of fire and air signify the preponderance of hot air?

Does a combination of a lot of fire and air signify the preponderance of hot air?

This harks back to the ancient greeks humours- where they thought everything was made up of 4 elements instead of the 140ish we now know in the periodic table.

“ Originally Posted by Enmos
Uhm that wasnt me i guess.

It matters where you got the charts, because it matters how they are made. Seems to me you dont know how they are made. If thats true how can you rely on them, for all you know someone just made them up. ”

No its was Oli.

Seemingly he can't remember his birthdate. Try looking at a birth certificate, Ol!


Can you please answer the question !? :mad:

Hey, SciForum people!

This Chyldyshe character is nothing but a fraud, fake and troll. He's just posting this junk here to pull everyone's chain. He's no more of an astrologer than I am an astronaut.

You'll get nothing meaningful from him because he doesn't HAVE anything meaningful to say - he's just pulling your chain and is enjoying watching you squirm while you are honestly trying to get something out of him.

Best to just ignore him, this whole thread and forget it.

I dont think anyone seriously thinks he will come up with anything. Its clear hes
drowning like a rat when he comes up against the less gullible people though.

Thats the whole point...you don't need to do anything but come up with a person in the public eye who negates the entire thing.

Its merely a case of plucking a well known personality out of the air.

Seems that's all what Astrology is about, picking stuff out of the air. But, we knew that already. Can you tell us anything new?

I then win the point again...and so it continues...I keep winning and the scientists keep losing.

Huzzah! All hail the big winner! Scientists everywhere are green with envy and wish they were you.

They have to lose because these are immutable laws - they cannot be wrong

And those would be the immutable laws of Astrology?

Wow, I'm waaaay out of my league on this one. :shrug:

Allthough this is a pseudoscience subforum, Billy has clearly issued a claim of objective truth (vs. a speculation, hypothesis, or even abstract theory) and failed to provide any evidence for it. I saw James R. tell MattMar to produce evidence for one of his wacky claims in another thread or face being banned. Maybe the same is applicable to Billy?

Astrology is a pseudo-science in the fact that a person get into the psychology of another person. Psychology, by definition is the science of mind and behavior. With astrology you can study and understand people and their behaviors according to their charts. When you see that certain paths are coming up in their charts, you let them know, but the person is free to choose. But sometimes I believe that it is a fate or a destiny thing...
Sapph : practicing astrology for over 20 yrs...

Astrology is a pseudo-science in the fact that a person get into the psychology of another person.
To be proven, or even demonstrated with any reliability.

Psychology, by definition is the science of mind and behavior.
Correction, psychology is not yet a science.

With astrology you can study and understand people and their behaviors according to their charts.
Really?
How do their "charts" give an indication of their behaviour?

When you see that certain paths are coming up in their charts, you let them know, but the person is free to choose. But sometimes I believe that it is a fate or a destiny thing...
If it's fate or destiny then there is no choice, neh?

Sapph : practicing astrology for over 20 yrs...
Maybe you'd like to show us how and why it "works"?

Alright, you first must know your time of birth, place and then give your date...
S(*)

Alright, you first must know your time of birth, place and then give your date...
S(*)

No you've missed the point: I'm not asking for a reading, I'm asking for evidence that it does work and why.
Objective evidence: not a reading that is, as are all I've seen, so nebulous as to be made to fit by the reader due to their own interpretation of it.

Astrology is a pseudo-science in the fact that a person get into the psychology of another person.

Actually, Astrology is a pseudoscience in that it has nothing to do with science, nature, or anything else other than complete guesswork.

With astrology you can study and understand people and their behaviors according to their charts.

Incorrect, you can study and understand people based on their behaviors. Charts are merely guesswork based no mumbo-jumbo.

Why do you debunk it if you haven't studied it? There is a doctor who set out to debunk it and ended up writing a book in praise of it and how he uses it to help people in his practice...

I also agree that there are astrologers that give bad advice as well as doctors who give bad advice.

Astrology can be understood as a philosophy that helps to explain life, rather than a type of mysticism that can be used as a predictive tool. Instead of discussing what the Planets do to us, we can explain ourselves based on Planetary indications.
The Signs work the same way: Each of the twelve Signs is a unique combination of one of the four Elements and one of the three Qualities. The Elements and Qualities demonstrate that we are all part of the environment. There is a connection between all living things and all matter on this Planet.
Astrology ties humans together: We are all faced with the same Planetary interactions, and we are all part of the same cycles

My challenge is, can you debunk it without ever studying it. You don't learn after just a few days, maybe you could in months, but a good astrologer takes years to study and then you never stop learning.

Hey, SciForum people!

This Chyldyshe character is nothing but a fraud, fake and troll. He's just posting this junk here to pull everyone's chain. He's no more of an astrologer than I am an astronaut.

You'll get nothing meaningful from him because he doesn't HAVE anything meaningful to say - he's just pulling your chain and is enjoying watching you squirm while you are honestly trying to get something out of him.

Best to just ignore him, this whole thread and forget it.



One wonders why you bothered to post then. Do the other members ordinarily follow orders off you and then completely ignore them?

Lets get it straight...our friend Oli is so terrified he can't even muster up the courage to post his birthdate. Its a rather timorous response don't you think?

Is he a man or or a mouse...better pass him the cheese.

Why do you debunk it if you haven't studied it? There is a doctor who set out to debunk it and ended up writing a book in praise of it and how he uses it to help people in his practice...

Hans Eysenck? Gauquelin?

Both took an overly scientific approach and hedged their bets by suggesting there was 'a core of truth' in astrology. Personally I'm not keen of seeing it as some psychological tool and its certainly not about fate but more about how to use your free will.

The response so far has been typical...mere insults, name calling, childish behaviour. The type of arrogance one expects of those rather to enthralled by science and space ships etc..

My challenge is, can you debunk it without ever studying it. You don't learn after just a few days, maybe you could in months, but a good astrologer takes years to study and then you never stop learning.

You understand my approach presumably. There are lots of variables and genetic, environmental factors aren't mutually exculsive from astrology..all three are entwined. The argument is as silly as that of Nature v Nurture. Neither blank each other out they are both combined in various amounts according to the person. Its not something easily quantified.

To get results you'd have to take it to an extreme and the majority exist in a fairly neutral condition..i mean we dont want to become extremely powerful, wealthy, famous...we're perfectly contented to just saunter along...the aforementioned are the oddities. You cant get more odd than Hitler for example which is why he works so well as a case study:)

Lets get it straight...our friend Oli is so terrified he can't even muster up the courage to post his birthdate. Its a rather timorous response don't you think?
Actually, let's really get this straight...
Why should I bother posting my birth date since you have shown no basis whatsoever to these claims.
And of course, if you were anywhere near half as smart as you claim to be you'd have checked my profile...
Rather stupid response, don't you think?

Is he a man or or a mouse...better pass him the cheese.
Are you a braggart or a scientist?

[EDIT]
Oh yeah - I'm accused of being terrified because I couldn't be bothered to post my birth date:
A) Double standard? How many times have you been asked to post the rationale, and not done so? So we can therefore safely assume you're terrified?
B) IF you produce a chart and IF it is 100% correct what would it prove? That wild shots in the dark sometimes hit the target.
Methodology, data, rationale, explanation... try it.

I also agree that there are astrologers that give bad advice as well as doctors who give bad advice.

There are ways of telling the difference between real doctors, and false or bad ones. There is no way to tell the difference between "real" astrologers, and false ones. That's the same as trying to differentiate between "real" psychics and false ones.

Since no one has brought it up yet, prove that astrology can make accurate predictions of future events, and win a million dollars! http://www.randi.org/research/index.html

As per Randi for his challenge:

This statement outlines the rules covering the offer made by this Foundation (JREF) concerning psychic, supernatural or paranormal claims. Since claims vary greatly in character and scope, specific rules must be formulated for each applicant. All applicants must agree to the rules set forth herein before any formal agreement can be entered into. Completing this form is mandatory; there are no exceptions to this rule.

I never said that I was a psychic or that astrology is supernatural or paranormal. You don't have to be a psychic to be able to read astrology charts. It's basis is not in the supernatural nor the paranormal. It goes back to ancient times where the astrologers were astronomers also. It is in every major culture or civilisation in the World.
You can get "bad" advice from real doctors. That is a given in todays World. Happens all the time. Did you read up about Evangeline Adams who was arrested as a "fortune teller" and then proved to the judge that she was in fact a bonafide astrologer?

Did you read up about Evangeline Adams who was arrested as a "fortune teller" and then proved to the judge that she was in fact a bonafide astrologer?
So?
Judges are not qualified, or empowered, to decide what is science and what isn't.
He made a LEGAL decision, nothing more.

Yes, a legal decision that DID influence the people at the time which then gave more credence to her ability as an astrologer.

Saying "bonafide astrologer" is like "genuine plastic". If astrology cannot make accurate predictions of future events, what can it do? And there is no scientific basis for an ability to predict the future. There is no scientific basis for astrology.

Ah, but she did make accurate predictions, as in WW2...

Yes, a legal decision that DID influence the people at the time which then gave more credence to her ability as an astrologer.
Yup: but did not make it science, or indeed, declare it to be one.
People are gullible: they listen to such as judges (who are no more or less gullible on non-legal matters than most others).
Granted, she could well have been a bona-fide astrologer: all that means is that the law recognised that she did it. for a living
Not that the law recognised (or proved) that what she did was real, true or valid.

Ah, but she did make accurate predictions, as in WW2...

Oh yeah:
"the USA will go to war for racial, political or religious reasons in '42, '43 and '44".
Pretty wide remit there, and she missed a year.
Much like saying "next week on Tuesday, Wednesday or Thursday you'll have an accident".

I never said that I was a psychic or that astrology is supernatural or paranormal. You don't have to be a psychic to be able to read astrology charts. It's basis is not in the supernatural nor the paranormal.

Agreed. But accepting that it actually MEANS something is equal to believing in the supernatural or paranormal. It's really based on the whimsical imagination of gullible human beings who mistakenly THINK they've found some sort of relationship between celestial bodies and the 'operations' of fellow humans.

In other words, it has no real basis whatsoever.

Ah, but she did make accurate predictions, as in WW2...

This is a bad joke. Anyone capable of accurately predicting future events would rapidly become very powerful and wealthy. Every government and corporation in the world would want this ability. They would be willing to do almost anything to possess this ability. It would completely alter our world.

No one can predict the future beyond an educated guess.

The law recognized her as a real astrologer, she successfully defended her practice in a court of law by accurate and deft prophecy, and her words are still a hallmark of astrological teaching.

The law recognized her as a real astrologer, she successfully defended her practice in a court of law by accurate and deft prophecy, and her words are still a hallmark of astrological teaching.

None of that changes the fact that astrology is pseudoscientific gibberish that is only given credibility by gullible fools, and few smart people who should know better.

Oh but great men and women of our World have used astrology: Leonardo Da Vinci, Shakespeare, Sir Francis Bacon, Kepler, Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson and George Washington, the list goes on. Are you saying that these people were gullible fools and not smart people who didn't know better?

Wow, a great combination of Appeal To Authority and Appeal To Tradition there. I can't help but notice your list comes to a screeching halt in the early nineteenth century.

Though your list is comprised of intelligent people, being intelligent doesn't guarantee that you don't believe in nonsensical things. There are things we know now that none of those people could possibly have known. And one of those things is that there is nothing useful about astrology.

The law recognized her as a real astrologer, she successfully defended her practice in a court of law by accurate and deft prophecy, and her words are still a hallmark of astrological teaching.
Correct: they recognised her as real astrologer: they didn't recognise astrology as being real.


Oh but great men and women of our World have used astrology: Leonardo Da Vinci, Shakespeare, Sir Francis Bacon, Kepler, Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson and George Washington, the list goes on. Are you saying that these people were gullible fools and not smart people who didn't know better?
Yes, in short.
Since astrology has shown no scientific basis then it was, and is, nothing more than superstition, guesswork and gullibility.

Are you speaking of some of our "forefathers" that helped to shape our Country as Fools?

Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson and George Washington are influenced by astrology and Egyptian-Alexandrian occult ideas supplied by esoteric astrologers in Germantown, Pennsylvania. Christopher Witt, the esoteric community's magister is a physician and astrologer. Much of the concern is to select the best times, ideas, designs of seals and monuments, to initiate activities that would lead to the creation of a nation powerful enough to withstand the attempts of Britain, the world superpower, to regain its prized colonies.
Benjamin Franklin publishes astrological Almanac 'Poor Richard's Almanack'

Astrolgy indeed became more acceptable after Evangeline Adams famous trial. Many famous people who have made money and changed our history relied on astrologers. Even 'ol Prez Ronnie Regan.

Amazing. What are these great wonders you have seen that our 'ilk' will never see?

Why should I tell you? Can't you see it in the stars?

All I know is that you beginning to sound like a rather pompous and silly human being.

It's funny you should say that, I have been known to mimick people when conversation. My main reason for doing so isn't because I'm actually mimicking them but because it's a subconscious social interaction whereby my mimicking is intended to mirror their qualities and make them feel more at ease.

Occasionally some people tend to bring out my worst, this is usually caused by themselves being abrasive in ways, so if I come across as pompous or silly perhaps you should rethink how you come across to people since I'm an abstract mirror.

Oh but great men and women of our World have used astrology: Leonardo Da Vinci, Shakespeare, Sir Francis Bacon, Kepler, Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson and George Washington, the list goes on. Are you saying that these people were gullible fools and not smart people who didn't know better?

Actually it's known that a number of famous people dabbled in getting astrological readings, not because they believed in it but they wanted to identify the hoax and to educate themselves further on what is reality and that of fiction.

When you have "real" scientists working w/astrology, does that make them foolish? Isn't working w/science and experimenting alot of guesswork? Many scientific discoveries were developed through alot of trial and error and guesswork.

Well alot of educated people people found that there was something to astrology and believe in it. There are many who study on their own just to help themselves.

Astrolgy indeed became more acceptable after Evangeline Adams famous trial. Many famous people who have made money and changed our history relied on astrologers. Even 'ol Prez Ronnie Regan.

If by acceptable, you mean popular, it's irrelevant. As Bertand Russell famously said, "If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

And that Nancy Reagan took astrology seriously, and Ronnie apparently listened to her advice, doesn't elevate astrology; rather, it is indicative of a serious flaw in both of them. It was very frightening to think that the leader of the most powerful nation in the world apparently listened to a woman who believed in such utter nonsense.

So sayeth you. According to history, our "teflon" president did quite well in office even for taking advice of an astrologer as to what day and time for debates and meetings, etc. Yes, even in time of crisis.

Well alot of educated people people found that there was something to astrology and believe in it. There are many who study on their own just to help themselves.

Still with the Appeal to Popularity. The number of people who believe that they have been abducted by aliens does not change the fact that they are either deluded or lying.

And how do these people help themselves? What are they studying? how does it help them?

So saeth you. Many in our country think that our "teflon" president did quite well in office even for using an astrologer for advice. She was used for many things such as day and times for debates and meetings and probably times of crisis which he handled pretty well.

When you have "real" scientists working w/astrology, does that make them foolish? Isn't working w/science and experimenting alot of guesswork? Many scientific discoveries were developed through alot of trial and error and guesswork.

Theory is guesswork, Science isn't. Science involves having evidence and for that evidence to be tested by more than one experiment by more than one experimenter. By this no single experiment with a single observer (or group of observers) is enough to declare the consensus of what science should stand for.

Trial and Error is just one of the many ways to get a job done. In the Underground culture surrounding the mythical status of hacking, Crackers use a trial and error method referred to as Bruteforce, since Bruteforce is what is used when ignorance is at play (In regards to not knowing a password).

So sayeth you. According to history, our "teflon" president did quite well in office even for taking advice of an astrologer as to what day and time for debates and meetings, etc. Yes, even in time of crisis.

Moving on to post hoc. However good a president he was (I think he was terrible) there is certainly no good reason to believe his success was because his wife regularly consulted an astrologer.

Sorry for double post. As for alien abduction, that is another can of worms or I think another part of this forum...
When you study astrology and realize that many people have similar characteristics that share the same "sun sign", that is somewhat co-incidental. When you can take the person out of the picture and then see the aspects and what they mean in relation to psychology in a chart, including yourself, you will understand that astrology has a scientific basis using established cycles. Astrology to me is a science that uses cycles to define a person's personality and psychological makeup. In olden days astrology was used only for the royal families, mundane things such as war. We have taken it to a more personal level. I, myself, on a personal level learned to understand family and friends through astrology. That neither makes me gullible nor foolish for using the astrology as a tool for understanding.

The point was that there are many people who will say that they have been abducted by aliens, and some who actually believe it. That doesn't change the fact that none have been.

Anecdotal evidence is worthless. That you have "used" astrology to understand people does nothing to change that there is no empirical evidence to support any of the claims that astrology makes, anymore than the insistence by some that homeopathic remedies healed them establishes some sort of factual basis for the pseudoscience of homeopathy.

Michael Shermer on the dangers of astrology.

You sound so benign. Yet your day job is debunking pseudo sciences like rain dances and astrology. There's no harm, then, in me thinking that because I'm a Libra I just might get what I wish for today?

[Laughs] No, for most people astrology is just light entertainment. But the problem with taking it seriously is it can lead to other irrational beliefs. And presumably in an educated democracy we want to have a certain level of education, as Jefferson says, so we can have a serious national discussion about problems. I mean, people who believe in astrology tend to believe all kinds of goofy things. All the pseudo sciences -- astrology, Tarot cards, psychics, mystic healing -- use the exact same principle. They work because we have a selective memory and a confirmation bias. We look forward to finding evidence for what we already believe and forget the rest. In an hour reading, a psychic will make 200 or 300 statements. If a person walks away with half a dozen things the psychic got right, he's ecstatic. It's like Skinner with the rats. You don't have to reinforce them every time. In fact, they'll press the bar even faster if you give them intermittent reinforcement. It's the same with slot machines. You just have to pay off every once in a while and it will keep us pulling the levers.

The joys of Life without God (http://www.salon.com/books/int/2006/08/23/shermer/)

The response so far has been typical...mere insults, name calling, childish behaviour.

It was much more typical of you to produce a fantastic claim without a shred of evidence. Do you even realize you are a liar and that you are attempting to delude others? I would bet the farm that you *think* you value truth.

When you study astrology and realize that many people have similar characteristics that share the same "sun sign", that is somewhat co-incidental.

One doesn't have to study astrology to understand that there are a limited amount of "sun signs" compared to the billions of individuals living on the planet. There are bound to be similarities.

But, you focus simply on "hits" and ignore the misses. As there are bound to be similarities, there are also bound to be non-similarities, a great many of them, in fact, which completely undermines any similarity comparisons.

When you can take the person out of the picture and then see the aspects and what they mean in relation to psychology in a chart, including yourself, you will understand that astrology has a scientific basis using established cycles.

You are wrong. Astrology charts have NO basis in science, whatsoever.

Of course, you are free to demonstrate exactly the scientific basis you refer. And since that question, and questions like it have never been answered before, please consider yourself the first.

I await, all a tingle.

Astrology to me is a science

Astrology is NOT a science.

In olden days astrology was used only for the royal families, mundane things such as war.

Astrology remains as useless as it did then.

I, myself, on a personal level learned to understand family and friends through astrology. That neither makes me gullible nor foolish for using the astrology as a tool for understanding.

Perhaps not, but it would certainly be gullible and foolish for anyone else to believe you.

Perhaps not, but it would certainly be gullible and foolish for anyone else to believe you.[/QUOTE]

Sorry to disappoint you, but there are many people that say that I have helped them astrologically and are appreciative.
Bottomline is that if you haven't studied it then you have no proof that it isn't helpful.

And just for the record, there is a scientific approach to astrology and it is done in a controlled way. That is research w/control charts and non-control charts.

It doesn't matter if you believe that it is a science or not, if it works for people and they are helped then that is what counts.

It doesn't matter if you believe that it is a science or not,
So why come on here claiming its provable to science?

if it works for people and they are helped then that is what counts.

Same can be said for mugging.

And just for the record, there is a scientific approach to astrology and it is done in a controlled way. That is research w/control charts and non-control charts.

You have no idea how ridiculous that statement is do you? That's no different from saying there is a scientific approach to alchemy.

And why do you think that is a ridulous statement? There are real societies that do use a scientific approach in a controlled setting. Did you not know that?

Sorry to disappoint you, but there are many people that say that I have helped them astrologically and are appreciative.

How the heck is one helped, "astrologically?" :shrug:

Gullible people are always appreciative when they get fleeced. It's 'cause they haven't realized they were fleeced. Something to do with gullibility, I think.

I wonder how many came back to thank you for predicting their futures?

Bottomline is that if you haven't studied it then you have no proof that it isn't helpful.

I hope you didn't use astrology to make that guess? Good thing I didn't pay ya' for it.

:p

It doesn't matter if you believe that it is a science or not, if it works for people and they are helped then that is what counts.

You can help people without having to feed them bullshit.

What about the people that DIDN'T feel they were helped?

And why do you think that is a ridulous statement? There are real societies that do use a scientific approach in a controlled setting. Did you not know that?

That these people call themselves scientists (or oxymoronically, scientific astrologers) is irrelevant. It is like having a scientific search for Noah's Ark. A scientific search for the garden of Eden.

I don't charge at all for helping people and I now think that you could say how can someone not listen if they haven't paid me. They are appreciative for the time that I have taken to discuss their issues. If I haven't helped them, then I haven't hurt them one bit. But I will tell you this much, I am respected as a person first, just as I respect them.

So what you are all saying is that you a sceptical of everything. You don't believe in ghosts, alien abductions, or Big Foot? You have no beliefs at all unless it has happened to you personally.

They are appreciative for the time that I have taken to discuss their issues.

This is much the same way that some are helped by chiropractors. A massage makes them feel better, and the positive benefit had nothing to do with the quackery that is chiropractic.

Most people appreciate anyone who will talk to them about themselves and their troubles. That they appreciate this has nothing at all to do with astrology.

Bottomline is that if you haven't studied it then you have no proof that