This refers to those experiences in the state where one transitions from waking to sleep (and sometimes includes the transition from sleep to waking). People have a variety of sensory and even linguistic experiences, generally images, but also sounds, smells and even voices that say sentences.

The other night as I was falling asleep. I tried (yet again) to stay conscious of the transition. This can actually increase awareness of what is happening, I have found. At a certain point I realized that I was seeing odd images - something to do with people in bottles and bottle shaped people. My strong impression was that my thoughts were being transformed into images. That verbal mulling was shifting toward or being stripped down to image/feeling gestalts.

If this were true, I think it would have a lot of implications about our minds.

In my life, I see these small glimpses as some of the most potentially powerful moments. If I could only capture the images or poetry that I experience into paper.

It takes a lot of commitment to practice. For me I will meditate for an hour, and then stay up very late until almost asleep - and then meditate some more, and continue keeping aware until asleep...

There are a few problems areas are a poor memory following the experience, a general difficulty staying awake while falling asleep - whos only remedy is meditation or opium. I would also say the biggest pain is actually focusing on the images, most time if you are not tired enough you will destroy them by looking at them wrong. I advise not moving your eyes at all, but keeping them open and staring forward.

The associational fantasies which are so common in my mind, are what will put me to sleep. It starts as one thing, and then in 3 seconds jumps a few nodes. I will see a book I like, think about my in a bookstore, see a hot girl, then I'm thinking about the book at work, and when I have to go to work tomorrow. And ZAP if I'm not meditating that chain will lead me to sleep, but if I can snap out of it I will be awake.

I have read books, and usually just try some sort of expirement as I have only succeeded a handful of times. Once I was able to copy the faces I saw onto paper. I would see the face, and then I could visualize my left hand tracing over the lines, and I would use my real life right hand to mimic it. And the drawings always came out as near perfect translations.

When this happens you realize all the different levels of perception playing tricks during dreams. Most of the time I will see a face and as soon as I want to see details the whole thing is exposed as detailess. But on the other hand I can step back and still see the picture generally, and not even notice a detail, nor want to, because the image seems already completely clear. (That is until I want to see details, and they don't exist!)

I don't have a good handle on this ability, but it's one of my foremost goals. The poetry I read, from my memory it was really awesome. And the whole time I will read it, I will be suprised, I might laugh out load. The words on the pages are not coming from my normal linguistic capactities, but instead it's like I'm reading the words of a lunatic poet that ive never met before.

Things in the dream world are connected with other things, that are just unimaginable from the sober perspective. I remember making an electronic bread board out of corn a few nights ago - and I just don't think that would pop into my mind sitting here at the office.

So I think dreams, and consciousness of especially hypnagogia, have some realy potential. Practically I think mostly art, maybe music. Invention too.

This refers to those experiences in the state where one transitions from waking to sleep (and sometimes includes the transition from sleep to waking). People have a variety of sensory and even linguistic experiences, generally images, but also sounds, smells and even voices that say sentences.

The other night as I was falling asleep. I tried (yet again) to stay conscious of the transition. This can actually increase awareness of what is happening, I have found. At a certain point I realized that I was seeing odd images - something to do with people in bottles and bottle shaped people. My strong impression was that my thoughts were being transformed into images. That verbal mulling was shifting toward or being stripped down to image/feeling gestalts.

If this were true, I think it would have a lot of implications about our minds.

Small correction. The hallucinations experienced when waking up are hypnopompia. Both forms of hallucination tend to be mistaken for paranormal experiences.

Also, if in the correct mindset, it's possible to use visuals to help explain something.

Yesterday I was explaining some DNA vs. Environment argument, and firstly I would give a few examples. (if you do this with explaining, they will pull all the shared concepts from the examples, and this eliminating of the unimportant info works wonders)

But second, get the concept in your mind, and really think about it and try hard. You will get visuals and describe them, describe them how you see them and with conviction. This method has a really success rate actually. A sort of near-perfect expression of meaning.

I'm a teacher and I've been fiddling with this for a few months now.

Small correction. The hallucinations experienced when waking up are hypnopompia. Both forms of hallucination tend to be mistaken for paranormal experiences.Actually the Hypnogogia is often used to include both states because, so far, they seem to be identical EEG-wise and otherwise. But you are correct in that some keep them distinct and use hypnopompia for the transition to waking state.

I do not think they are hallucinations at least in the sense that it is some confusion that something is physically present which is not. Nor do I think it is useful to call dreams hallucinations. While technically covered by the broadest definition of the word, the word has too much negative baggage and is misleading in this context.

I am not raising the issue of paranormal experiences here. I disagree with you about them. But I am more interested in what these experiences can show us about mundane thought.

In my life, I see these small glimpses as some of the most potentially powerful moments. If I could only capture the images or poetry that I experience into paper.

It takes a lot of commitment to practice. For me I will meditate for an hour, and then stay up very late until almost asleep - and then meditate some more, and continue keeping aware until asleep...

There are a few problems areas are a poor memory following the experience, a general difficulty staying awake while falling asleep - whos only remedy is meditation or opium. I would also say the biggest pain is actually focusing on the images, most time if you are not tired enough you will destroy them by looking at them wrong. I advise not moving your eyes at all, but keeping them open and staring forward.

The associational fantasies which are so common in my mind, are what will put me to sleep. It starts as one thing, and then in 3 seconds jumps a few nodes. I will see a book I like, think about my in a bookstore, see a hot girl, then I'm thinking about the book at work, and when I have to go to work tomorrow. And ZAP if I'm not meditating that chain will lead me to sleep, but if I can snap out of it I will be awake.

I have read books, and usually just try some sort of expirement as I have only succeeded a handful of times. Once I was able to copy the faces I saw onto paper. I would see the face, and then I could visualize my left hand tracing over the lines, and I would use my real life right hand to mimic it. And the drawings always came out as near perfect translations.

When this happens you realize all the different levels of perception playing tricks during dreams. Most of the time I will see a face and as soon as I want to see details the whole thing is exposed as detailess. But on the other hand I can step back and still see the picture generally, and not even notice a detail, nor want to, because the image seems already completely clear. (That is until I want to see details, and they don't exist!)

I don't have a good handle on this ability, but it's one of my foremost goals. The poetry I read, from my memory it was really awesome. And the whole time I will read it, I will be suprised, I might laugh out load. The words on the pages are not coming from my normal linguistic capactities, but instead it's like I'm reading the words of a lunatic poet that ive never met before.

Things in the dream world are connected with other things, that are just unimaginable from the sober perspective. I remember making an electronic bread board out of corn a few nights ago - and I just don't think that would pop into my mind sitting here at the office.

So I think dreams, and consciousness of especially hypnagogia, have some realy potential. Practically I think mostly art, maybe music. Invention too.
Interesting. I would be very interested if you could see if there is a connection to verbal thought while falling asleep and the images. See if you can catch the transition between relaxing and hypnogogia. I also meditate. I think this is a help and a hinder. The help is focus, the hinder is I tend to have less verbal thoughts, which are part of what I am 'studying'.

Also, if in the correct mindset, it's possible to use visuals to help explain something.

Yesterday I was explaining some DNA vs. Environment argument, and firstly I would give a few examples. (if you do this with explaining, they will pull all the shared concepts from the examples, and this eliminating of the unimportant info works wonders)

But second, get the concept in your mind, and really think about it and try hard. You will get visuals and describe them, describe them how you see them and with conviction. This method has a really success rate actually. A sort of near-perfect expression of meaning.

I'm a teacher and I've been fiddling with this for a few months now.And DNA - the image of it - was first seen in an altered state. I think it was Crick, not Watson.

Actually the Hypnogogia is often used to include both states because, so far, they seem to be identical EEG-wise and otherwise. But you are correct in that some keep them distinct and use hypnopompia for the transition to waking state.

Asuming it's true they are identical EEG-wise, their content is quite different. Quite often the human mind is fully conscious during hypnopompia and the hallucinatory content is superimposed over normal sensory perception. Additionally, hynopompic content is often threat simulation based with spiders, snakes, and chest pressure being quite common. Hypnagogia doesn't share this.


I do not think they are hallucinations at least in the sense that it is some confusion that something is physically present which is not.

Most christians I have encountered cite their hypnopomic experiences as objective evidence for demons. Vivid dreamers in general cite their dream experiences as objective evidence for just about anything paranormal. So yes, people do have a hard time distinguishing between natural human hallucination and reality.


Nor do I think it is useful to call dreams hallucinations. While technically covered by the broadest definition of the word, the word has too much negative baggage and is misleading in this context.

The average dictionary associates hallucination with physical and mental defect; however, just about every modern human science book also places normal human biological function as the cause for various hallucination. More importantly, modern science classifies 3 distinct natural human hallucinations as hypnagogic hallucination, dreaming, and hynopompic hallucination.


I am not raising the issue of paranormal experiences here. I disagree with you about them. But I am more interested in what these experiences can show us about mundane thought.

"Mundane" is a subjective notion. Unless you can define it objectively, any answer is going to be subjective and you can kiss any semblance of truth goodbye.

In my opinion, a better question to ask is why do we have these hallucinatory experiences? Dreams and hynopompia are simulations. They exercise our brains in various scenarios; thus, enhancing our ability to survive. As far as hypnagogic hallucination is concerned, nobody knows yet.

I had one of those hypnagogic states when falling asleep, where my vision went like a computer screen...just ones and zeros...really weird.

sweet.

Asuming it's true they are identical EEG-wise, their content is quite different. Quite often the human mind is fully conscious during hypnopompia and the hallucinatory content is superimposed over normal sensory perception. Additionally, hynopompic content is often threat simulation based with spiders, snakes, and chest pressure being quite common. Hypnagogia doesn't share this. What you say above is interesting and I'd love some links or references. I have to say the distinction neither fits with my experience nor does it match the literature I've read.

Sometimes the word hypnagogia is used in a restricted sense to refer to the onset of sleep, and contrasted with hypnopompia, Fredierick Myers’ term for waking up.[3] However, hypnagogia is also regularly employed in a more general sense that covers both falling asleep and waking up, and Havelock Ellis questioned the need for separate terms.[4] Indeed, it is not always possible in practice to assign a particular episode of any given phenomenon to one or the other, given that the same kinds of experience occur in both, and that people may drift in and out of sleep. In this article hypnagogia will be used in the broader sense, unless otherwise stated or implied.

This is not where I came up with the notion that it was used for both states, but it was something I could cut and paste easily.

Most christians I have encountered cite their hypnopomic experiences as objective evidence for demons. Vivid dreamers in general cite their dream experiences as objective evidence for just about anything paranormal. So yes, people do have a hard time distinguishing between natural human hallucination and reality. You've met some interesting Christians. I have met many and not a single one has said anything like this.

The average dictionary associates hallucination with physical and mental defect; however, just about every modern human science book also places normal human biological function as the cause for various hallucination. More importantly, modern science classifies 3 distinct natural human hallucinations as hypnagogic hallucination, dreaming, and hynopompic hallucination. As long as all that is made clear. In a philosophy forum I think it's safer to go without the word and not much is gained by it. In fact, if for example some of the ideas I have about what is happening in hynogogic states are correct, 'hallucinations' is a distraction. Many theorists see all three states as having to do with learning and possibly memory. Or to put it broadly adjustments. The Christians you have met are an exception. I think we can safely drop the word and see if there is a useful function to these processes. But if you want to keep using it, go ahead.

"Mundane" is a subjective notion. Unless you can define it objectively, any answer is going to be subjective and you can kiss any semblance of truth goodbye. Mundane means not paranormal in this context. I am relating experiences and phenomena within H states to thinking in general. Thinking is generally accepted by scientists - as opposed to demons or psychic phenomena - so referring to it should not be controversial.

Other than that we can wait for problems to arise, before talking about kissing truth good bye.

In my opinion, a better question to ask is why do we have these hallucinatory experiences? Dreams and hynopompia are simulations. They exercise our brains in various scenarios; thus, enhancing our ability to survive. As far as hypnagogic hallucination is concerned, nobody knows yet.

Some researchers think they are simulations. Some don't. I wanted to explore people's experiences of H states and also bounce some ideas off of them. Essentially the question I am exploring is the one you suggest, but I first want to come at it through experience.

Also, if in the correct mindset, it's possible to use visuals to help explain something.

Yesterday I was explaining some DNA vs. Environment argument, and firstly I would give a few examples. (if you do this with explaining, they will pull all the shared concepts from the examples, and this eliminating of the unimportant info works wonders)

But second, get the concept in your mind, and really think about it and try hard. You will get visuals and describe them, describe them how you see them and with conviction. This method has a really success rate actually. A sort of near-perfect expression of meaning.

I'm a teacher and I've been fiddling with this for a few months now.

I realized that in my first response to you I had forgotten the insight - perhaps correct, perhaps not - I had while in H states. This is that I would be mulling over a relationship - rather than a thing or a person - and the relationship coalesced into an image with a certain feeling.

Rather than Daddy becomes a bear
but my relationship with my father becomes a bottle, with a certain feelings.

Let's say for a moment this is the case. That at least some relationships ro processes get reified into single images.

What this might do is give the brain/mind a chance to relate to a relationship rather than simply to the other person - as in my example - or the parts of a relationship - say between two people one supervises or two objects one is working with in a job.

So H-states might be a primary reification pattern, and, in a sense, a primal way of getting a kind of overview, where one learns how to relate to relationships rather than simply objects and people.

What you say above is interesting and I'd love some links or references. I have to say the distinction neither fits with my experience nor does it match the literature I've read.

Here's a good place to start:

http://www.websciences.org/cftemplate/NAPS/archives/indivcategall.cfm?ID=10&year=2006


This is not where I came up with the notion that it was used for both states, but it was something I could cut and paste easily.

No worries. One thing you have to realize is that these things don't get alot of research attention so it's natural for people to want to lump things together that might appear to be the same.


You've met some interesting Christians. I have met many and not a single one has said anything like this.

Have you discussed the topic with them? None of them ever said anything about dark demonc figures in the doorway, some evil presence sitting on their chests, etc?


As long as all that is made clear. In a philosophy forum I think it's safer to go without the word and not much is gained by it. In fact, if for example some of the ideas I have about what is happening in hynogogic states are correct, 'hallucinations' is a distraction. Many theorists see all three states as having to do with learning and possibly memory. Or to put it broadly adjustments. The Christians you have met are an exception. I think we can safely drop the word and see if there is a useful function to these processes. But if you want to keep using it, go ahead.

I would agree that it has to do with learning. After all, the whole point of being put through a simulated environment is to learn (and of course survive better). I think the word hallucination describes it to a T. It's an experience confined to your own mind.


Mundane means not paranormal in this context. I am relating experiences and phenomena within H states to thinking in general. Thinking is generally accepted by scientists - as opposed to demons or psychic phenomena - so referring to it should not be controversial.

Other than that we can wait for problems to arise, before talking about kissing truth good bye.

Ahh, I see. From my vantage point the paranormal isn't real; hence, "mundane" is the only option (so no need for an explicit word). Why not google "dreams and threat simulaton"... it might be a good start towards understanding hallucinatory roles in human psychology.


Some researchers think they are simulations. Some don't.

That's true. It's a theory, but so far it is very well supported.


I wanted to explore people's experiences of H states and also bounce some ideas off of them. Essentially the question I am exploring is the one you suggest, but I first want to come at it through experience.

Cool.

[QUOTE]Here's a good place to start:

http://www.websciences.org/cftemplate/NAPS/archives/indivcategall.cfm?ID=10&year=2006


thanks but I just did a search using both hypnogogia and hypnopompia and came up dry.

No worries. One thing you have to realize is that these things don't get alot of research attention so it's natural for people to want to lump things together that might appear to be the same. Actually I learned to not lump them as you did, but recently I have come across a trend to lump them. I can see the wisdom of it too because in many instances it would be hard to be sure which hypno___ it was.

Have you discussed the topic with them? None of them ever said anything about dark demonc figures in the doorway, some evil presence sitting on their chests, etc?
Nope. But these sound like rural fundies and while I have had contact with members of those groups and none of them said anything like that, I've had less contact with them than other kinds of Christians.

I would agree that it has to do with learning. After all, the whole point of being put through a simulated environment is to learn (and of course survive better). I think the word hallucination describes it to a T. It's an experience confined to your own mind. So is thinking.

Ahh, I see. From my vantage point the paranormal isn't real; hence, "mundane" is the only option (so no need for an explicit word). Why not google "dreams and threat simulaton"... it might be a good start towards understanding hallucinatory roles in human psychology. I'm actually pretty well read in the field and I have a good uni nearby with medical and psychology libraries so I'm set.

thanks but I just did a search using both hypnogogia and hypnopompia and came up dry... I'm actually pretty well read in the field and I have a good uni nearby with medical and psychology libraries so I'm set.

Sorry, that site has been pretty good in general for human psychology and I would have thought the H's would have been in mass quanity there. I am glad that you do have a real library at your disposal as that will help alot. Check out these puppies:

Cheyne, J. A., Newby-Clark, I.R., & Rueffer, S.D. (1999). Sleep paralysis and associated hypnagogic and hypnopompic experiences. Journal of Sleep Research, 8, 313-318.

Cheyne, J. A., Rueffer, S. D., & Newby-Clark, I. R. (1999). Hypnagogic and hypnopompic hallucinations during sleep paralysis: Neurological and cultural construction of the night-mare. Consciousness and Cognition, 8, 319-337.

Cacioppo, J. T., Gardner, W. L., & Berntson, G. G. (1999), The affect system has parallel and integrative processing components: Form follows function. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 76, 839-855.

Damasio, A. R. (1994). Descartes' Error: Emotion, reason, and the human brain. New York: Putnam.

Damasio, A. R. (1999). The feeling of what happens: Body and emotion in the making of consciousness. New York: Harcourt.

Fagan, R. (1976). Modeling how and why play works. In J. S. Bruner, A. Jolly, & K. Sylva (Eds.) Play: Its role in development and evolution. Harmondsworth, England: Penguin.

Groos, K. (1896). The play of man. New York: Apple-Century-Crofts.

Hobson, J. A., & McCarley, R. W. (1977). The brain as a dream state generator: An activation synthesis hypothesis of the dream process. American Journal of Psychiatry, 134, 1335 - 1348.

Hobson, J. A., Stickgold, R., & Pace-Schott, E. F. (1998). The neuropsychology of REM sleep dreaming. Neuroreport, 9, R1-R14.

Hobson, J. A., Stickgold, R., Pace-Schott, E. F., & Leslie, K. R. (1998). Sleep and vestibular adaptation: Implications for function in microgravity. Journal of Vestibular Research, 8, 81-94.

Merritt, J. M., Stickgold, R., Pace-Schott, E., Williams, J., & Hobson, J. A. (1994). Emotion profiles in the dreams of men and women. Consciousness and Cognition, 3, 46-60.



Actually I learned to not lump them as you did, but recently I have come across a trend to lump them. I can see the wisdom of it too because in many instances it would be hard to be sure which hypno___ it was.

I've noticed the same trend; however, I have seen ample evidence to separate them. As I recall, there are even non-subjective effects that are different (ex. something about the frontal lobe being depressed with hypnopompia and not hypnagogia).



Nope. But these sound like rural fundies and while I have had contact with members of those groups and none of them said anything like that, I've had less contact with them than other kinds of Christians.

The bulk of the folks I spoke with were protestants and catholics, but they were either freinds or acquantances of friends.


So is thinking.

That's true, so I would correct my definition and say it is an involuntary sensory experience confined to a person's mind.


On a sidenote, if you want to know the latest and greates bleeding-edge info on hypnagogia, dreams, and hypnopompia, sign up for the 2009 annual conference of the International Association for the Study of Dreams. You'll find about 75% science and 25% crackpottery.

In my life, I see these small glimpses as some of the most potentially powerful moments. If I could only capture the images or poetry that I experience into paper.

It takes a lot of commitment to practice. For me I will meditate for an hour, and then stay up very late until almost asleep - and then meditate some more, and continue keeping aware until asleep...
Or you could just eat some mushrooms...

Unless you're put off by the fact that someone else has decided you shouldn't be allowed to.