if we consider that our species will not be extinct by war or natural causes and will continue to evolve, what do you believe to be the final evolutionary level of the human race and what will it consist?

*simply master space/(time!?) travel?
*meeting other life forms?
*meeting other inteligent life forms?
*unlocking all the unanswered questions about universe/reality?
*mastering and controling the universe?
*being able to exist without the concept of end/death? (immortality due to advance nanotecnology?)
*being able to exist without the need for a body/(shell for conscinousness)
*or something far beyond all the possibilites currently crossing our minds regarding our future?

and what do you think our values would be in this final evolutionary state?
would we have values/etics?
will we need for those?
please comment and state your opinios regarding this matter

...what do you believe to be the final evolutionary level of the human race and what will it consist?

What a dismal thought. The last generation of man. The final rung on the ladder. I wonder if they'll all kill themselves in horror at what they have done to themselves?


Edit: Oh. And what makes you think that we won't evolve into small-brained, tree-dwelling varmints?

*simply master space/(time!?) travel?Space, yes. Even if we're stuck with c as the absolute limit, given enough time a few generation starships will reach other hospitable worlds and a very loosely bound interstellar society will form. Of course, putting our species in a different biosphere may cause it to mutate in different ways and after a few million years the descendants of humans on different planets may come to be quite differentiated from one another. Time, probably no. But that's just my guess.*meeting other life forms?Yes, probably, assuming that we get the space travel thing together.*meeting other intelligent life forms?It's a big universe. I'll bet there are others out there. If interstellar travel is as difficult as it seems from our vantage, then it's a matter of luck whether two intelligent species will ever meet. But given enough time, the law of averages says Yes.*unlocking all the unanswered questions about universe/reality?No, but that's a trick question. For every question you answer you always get at least two new ones.*mastering and controling the universe?That's a relative thing. Have we mastered and controlled this planet? Again, this hinges on the practicality of extensive interstellar travel. We're not going to be much of a force for change in the universe if we only have a few generational starships out there at a time and it takes them thousands of years to find a habitable planet.*being able to exist without the concept of end/death? (immortality due to advance nanotecnology?)I'll say yes on that one. But there will always be the possibility of death by catastrophe. You may be able to put a backup disk with your memory and personality on the seventh moon of Jupiter, but when the Sun goes nova, that disk is toast.*being able to exist without the need for a body/(shell for conscinousness)Yeah, okay. Why not. If we can find a way to transcribe our minds to sturdier material than our brains in order to prevent accidental death, why not just make the transfer permanent and trade our bodies for mechanical vessels.*or something far beyond all the possibilites currently crossing our minds regarding our future?Well duh. How are we supposed to answer that one? "Sorry, the thought hasn't crossed my mind yet!"and what do you think our values would be in this final evolutionary state? would we have values/ethics? will we need those?Depends on whether we mechanize ourselves to the point that we have no more biological indeterminacy. Even then, a sufficiently complicated computer will probably have to deal with situational ethics, deferred gratification, and all the other moral issues that plague civilizations. Would we 21st-Century Homo sapiens recognize them as moral values, or just think they're computer programs?

Strangely, none of your options have anything to do with evolution. What you seem to be looking for is some sort of collective goal-seeking. In any case, naturally all of your choices will be pursued.

*simply master space/(time!?) travel?


What do u mean master? We will never travel much farther than the nearest star.

*meeting other life forms?

Quite possible

*meeting other inteligent life forms?

Unlikely

*unlocking all the unanswered questions about universe/reality?

Very possible (althought there are some questions that cannot be answered).

*mastering and controling the universe?

*Definition*

*being able to exist without the concept of end/death? (immortality due to advance nanotecnology?)

Unlikely


*being able to exist without the need for a body/(shell for conscinousness)

What exists without a body? Unlikely.

*or something far beyond all the possibilites currently crossing our minds regarding our future?

Very likely

and what do you think our values would be in this final evolutionary state?
would we have values/etics?

Always

Sorry for being so succint. That's me!

Strangely, none of your options have anything to do with evolution. What you seem to be looking for is some sort of collective goal-seeking. In any case, naturally all of your choices will be pursued.It's a given that when you talk about human evolution at any time since around a hundred thousand years ago, you're talking about our spectacular collective evolution as a community, not our paltry evolution as individuals. Everything that we have accomplished since the Paleolithic Era was accomplished by humanity, not by humans. Language, which was invented around that time, gives us the ability to pass intricately detailed knowledge down through many generations, so that each generation builds upon the accomplishments of its ancestors.

It's a given that when you talk about human evolution at any time since around a hundred thousand years ago, you're talking about our spectacular collective evolution as a community, not our paltry evolution as individuals. Everything that we have accomplished since the Paleolithic Era was accomplished by humanity, not by humans. Language, which was invented around that time, gives us the ability to pass intricately detailed knowledge down through many generations, so that each generation builds upon the accomplishments of its ancestors.

Fair enough. Although, myself and richard Dawkins would disagree with your choice of the human community as the 'object' of evolution. In any case, what I disagree with here is the implication (though it's fairly explicit) of teleology. Our accomplishments, by and large, were not the result of a directed effort towards some goal, but rather the result of various goals achieved via trial and error. Interestingly enough, it seems to me you're wanting to talk about the evolution of memes, not genes.

or something far beyond all the possibilites currently crossing our minds regarding our future?



Harbinger SpaceShipOne? Tourists in space this century? Corporate scout ships next? Laboratories and all that sick shit? Somehow, visions of capitalism, democracy, academia and entertainment don't seem to gel with visions of cosmic breadth. Mankind's achilles heel: modern man.

I will share Jonas Salk's views of the stages of cosmic evolution and how it relates to us, and then my own interpretation. He suggests 5 stages: pre-biological, biological, metabiological (evolution of culture), teleobiological (beginnings of conscious awareness of how systems evolve and how we can participate in that - a stage that I think began about 100 years ago), and finally the symbiological, which I think is like a harmonious unity of diversity. Personally, I think that at the "ultimate" stage, we realize that we are the cosmos reflecting upon itself through multiple viewpoints, and we also realize that time is non-linear, and so we melt into the whole that we are part of anyway. Bottom line: the journey never ceases. It's an endless adventure with an inevitable outcome in which we play an important role in pulling along. Um, get that?

We are minor fluctuations - a blip in the real scale of things. We will evolve with respect to the selective pressures.

In first world culture, perhaps the greatest selective pressure on gene frequency is: how many babies and how quickly?

It pains me to think that perhaps in the furutre the world will be completely populated with slut underage single mothers and rat-boys.

If you look at the development of our technology in the last 1000 or so years, it's been exponential. It's only a matter of time before computers are able to process many of the things that men can't, such as laws of space, time, and gravity; DNA, brain-mapping, etc., etc. Once computers can understand our brains and surpass the brain power that we possess, the possiblities are endless, and I can see things like immortality (if you assume we have no soul), a removed consciousness from the body, and other things easily coming about.

However, that's all purely technological evolution. Is it possible for the technology we develop to eventually enable our actual brains (i.e. cognitive efficiency and capacity and whatever else) to evolve, or be somehow artificially enhanced? I'm pretty sure this evolution won't happen naturally.

I´ve created a thread related with thatin AI forums.

Since no one there its replying, i will post here what i said there:

"I think (this is a not fundamented idea...just an opinion) that in the future(distant future maybe) computers will no longer be made from silicon chips or "iron and steel" but they will be essentially made of biologival structures. DNA, cells, neurons, etc, etc will be the computers of the future.

Now, when that happens, computers will no longer be computers but (i suppose) life forms.

Maybe we are "computers" from an old and ancient civilization

When (if) we reach that state, how could we distinguish life form from a no living being?

Just imagine for a little the future that i speak about...its strange isnt it?

For example, if we get able to create such advanced computers, maybe we will learn too how to transmit information and "status" (the state of a computer in one giving moment) from one BioCOmputer to another BioComp. So, maybe we will get able to transfer the counscious from one place to another. Maybe in the future we will not have bodys (just "flow" or "swim" in a ocean of information)

Maybe our evolution as human beings its "waiting" for that step: we grow up in the past from "monkeys" (Austrolopitecs, etc) to the actual homo sapiens sapiens and in the future our bodys will be merged with computers.

I know that this sound crazy, but...who knows?

It would be a very strange and crazy world i suppose.

What do you think about these ideas?"

So, this is one of my visions on the future.

I´ve others but i am not willing to say it now (tired).

what do you believe to be the final evolutionary level of the human race and what will it consist?
I think we're very close to ridding ourselves of our physical bodies. I have no idea where we'll go, but I don't imagine us travelling across the stars like they show in Star Trek and such shows. I think it's much more likely that one of a few things will happen, either:

a) We download our consciousness into supercomputers, maybe buried beneath the Earth's crust and continue to live for as long as we can in a 'virtual' world.

b) We merge our conscious minds with types of 'machine bodies' and set off toward the stars with the ability to 'live' forever.

c) We destroy ourselves.

d) A type of von Neumann expansion, either with self-replicating machines or carefully constructed biological 'seeds' that we'll simply throw out into space. With a couple more centuries of genetic engineering I think it's totally reasonable that we could 'program' these seeds to create all the necessities for human life, and then even human life on other worlds.

e) something else =P

why would be even clost to ridding ourselves of our physical bodies?
why would one want to?
-insanity-

Why are we close? At most another 100 years and I'll bet we'll have the technology to download into machines of some kind.

Why would we want to? Well, the human body is frail and weak. It's by no means built for space travel, it's succeptible to disease, it requires constant nourishment, oxygen and water, it's very environment sensitive and, right now, has a maximum lifespan of maybe 120 years. I don't see any reason to keep our bodies if we intend to travel through the galaxy.

I think that what you say its a possibility in the future but i am wondering: would our minds/egos/souls (whatever you call it) be ready for that non-living body existence?

i am Queer, and love dudes. especially dudes with real nice bodies. not over pumped up, but ,,,lush

so the thought of that being improved on doesn't fill me with anxiety for it to ever happen. cause if it dont broke dont fix it!

i SENSe in western paradigm, a frantic rush via technology to gain superhumaness and space travel. that also disturbs me. why? cause i LOVe Nature. and i already resent that people like me cant really enjoy it as we wanna, cause of the fascist drive to succedd in technology--with all that that involves, inscluding severly oppressive means to an end.

Some--science minded people--claim it is 'natural'--this frantic tool-obsession. but it aint for me. so whats that mean? i am outsider? i am inauthentic?

i feel the Greys phenomena was/is some kind of ...weird warning of 'superior techno beings' being also cruel and souless. treating abductees like a animal vivisectionist would treat a fearful animal. Total Control.

i am seeing this mindset --acause it ins't shared by ALL our species, remember this --as wanting to control Nature. to achieve in 'secular' way what their patriarchal religious myth want(ed). immortality, and a stella existence, and 'masters of the universe'

I think that what you say its a possibility in the future but i am wondering: would our minds/egos/souls (whatever you call it) be ready for that non-living body existence?
Not now, no I don't think so. How will we 'get' ready? I'm not sure, but I'll tell you one thing, hallucinogenic drugs like psilocybin or DMT are an excellent way to prepare for an existance without a body, because that's exactly what these trips are; a purely mental state of existance if only for a short while.

Take psilocybin for example. If you could describe this drug in one way it would be that it dissolves boundaries. On higher doses, ego is completely dissolved. The line between reality and everything else becomes very thin, and can be dissolved completely. Physical objects and materialism become meaningless and you're whisked off to another world inside your mind.

It's a huge shame that drugs like these are illegal and shunned by society so much, they have countless things to teach us but most of us seem to not care. We'd rather spend billions of dollars sending probes off to a neighboring piece of rock, but the funny thing is if the things these drugs show you inside your mind were picked up by one of these probes we would be all over it in a second. We would spend billions to go to this place and explore this strange new world.

The funny thing is, we don't have to spend billions to explore this world, we don't even have to leave our living rooms. "That is the exploration that awaits you... not mapping stars or studying a nebula, but charting the unknown possibilities of existance" ;)

i dunno 'bout you, xelios, but i like my human body, and i'll kill anyone, ruthlessly or otherwise, who tries to put my essense into something else.

This vision of not having a body is strictly patriarchal. The most modern exponent for this dream was Terrence McKenna. But when you study his influences you can see he was a mish mash of Goddess religion and patriarchy where patriarchal vision gains prominence--unfortuneatly,. For example, his idea of downloading mind, of vacating Earth, etc etc. all of this is the modified version of the Judaic Christian dream!

Also Leary became similar. For instance his book Exo-psychology is all about how we are gonna evolve into really weird cratures and vacate the planet.

So.....i ask myself, why is it these two dude, who are familiar with hallucingenic experience--like myself (yet i didn't/don't insight on their vision)--should beging beliving all of this

i have explored it and still am. some ideas: i reckon that too much emphasis on interiroization when Tripping could be a cause. We know McKenna took 'heroic' does of shrooms, and demanded silence and focussing inwardly, and Leary too prpbably did same. With Leary, his space obssession began during his imprisonment. Maybe he desired to leave Earth due to the treatment he was getting......? When you look at more anceint cults and religions etc, and find this patriarchal desire to escape the body and Earth, this dream usually coincides with some form of deep fear and resentment about the conditions of existence.
Joseph Campbell points out the possible origins of this calling it The Great Reversal, which happened in Egypt, where from poems that depicted a really celebratory life, there appeared lamenting poetry that coinicided with war, rapine, etc!

This is why i feel that REAL evolution is not escape=planet=earth as some weird lookin android, or bodiliess awareness--whatever THAt is....but rather us now beginning to learn to LIVE with Earth and our bodies. And what will deeply help this much needed encouragement is Tripping with appropriat set and setting. a BONDING WITH Nature. rather than a bonding with inner-fantasies that are emphasized as being above and beyond Nature

That's the other possibility, yes.

To me biology seems much too limited and fragile to explore the stars, but if we're meant to ignore the rest of the universe and simply live here on Earth for the forseeable future then a more mutual relationship with nature would be a better way to go.

There's so many possibilities, who knows what will happen.

That's the other possibility, yes.

To me biology seems much too limited and fragile to explore the stars, but if we're meant to ignore the rest of the universe and simply live here on Earth for the forseeable future then a more mutual relationship with nature would be a better way to go.

There's so many possibilities, who knows what will happen.

Surely there'd have t be SOME form of biology fro the speace dream. i mean one couldn't NOt be biological could one?

Also i wonder where this dream comes from? i have already briefly pointed out the possibility of certain psychonauts inner explorations fueling this dream. but i also suppose another big part is the whole phenomena of 'UFOs' and 'ET' and 'contact', 'abuctions' etc

I was only reading yesterday about how one of the dudes who supposedly walked on the moon--Edgar Mitchell--apparently claims that 'Insiders' are already in possesion of alien technology and alien bodies.

Surely there'd have t be SOME form of biology fro the speace dream. i mean one couldn't NOt be biological could one?
Sure there might be some form, but I doubt it'd be anything close to our bodies. Let me put it this way, I don't think we'll be flying around the galaxy in space ships, it's just too impractical. It'd be much easier to engineer either our biology or our technology to allow us to exist in space directly than to construct massive space craft for our frail bodies. We need water, food, oxygen and gravity to function in space, I think it's easier to re-engineer ourselves so we don't need these things than to come up with ways to provide them in the depths of space.

what i am tying to fathom is where the impetus for your ideas come from
i mean, i am aware of UFOlogy, ok. this is a general belief in space CRAFT. not sace non-biological bodies flying about....?

so errr, what you mean exactly?

Well most people would agree that the body is not what defines a person, but rather his personality and 'soul' (whatever that may be). Since these things will reside in the brain, if anywhere, it should be possible to either simulate an artificial brain or use a biological brain, and just a brain, in a larger mechanical or other construct that can function in space. Such constructs wouldn't be tied down to biological needs like water, oxygen or food, and with some nanotechnology they could be maintained indefinatly. This is at least a couple hundred years down the road though, in the mean time we'll probably use conventional ships.

The only way I can see us exploring the galaxy in actual space ships with the bodies we have now is if we come up with some sort of near-instant FTL travel, like wormholes or something.

Downloading is another strong possibility though, I think a lot of people would, in the future, gladly download their consciousness into a vast computer world. Think about it, the chance to be conscious forever in a world that's completely what you make it. You could do or be anything you want, completely safe from the concepts of death, injury (if you want to be) and pain (again, if you want to be).

errrrrm why doesn't BODY 'define' a person. you ARe your body. if i am to draw you i am defining your body. your personality IS your body, whatever shape or size

the idea the soul rsides in the brain, is peculiarly Western...comeing from the Judiac Christian tradition of there being a separate soul, which is disonnected from Nature

For ancient Earth religious peoples and Indigenous peoples, 'soul' doesn't just reside in the human brain, but is BODY....(btw ancient Chinese though believed it resides in solar plexus!),,,,,ANd is intrinsic in Nature

so your idea of 'downloading' 'soul' into a computer makes no sense to a broader interpretation of soul or consciousness. That dream--i believe--comes from the cybernetic model of the universe.
what happens is this....western scientific man got a history...you can see this patter as clear as eggs when you look. whatEVER he thinks...what model he comes up with, such as levers and pulleys, clockwork, computer, etc he immediately projects onto the universe!...you with me. his little model is used to explain everything...till the next one comes. but these, my friend, are merely models. what reality, universe 'IS'...............is another story entirely