The problem is that the world blames USA for all of the worlds problems. Some of them are justified and some are not. The world overlooks what the USA does to help out and only concentrates on what they think we did or are doing. The think is the world needs some one to hate. During the cold war you either hated the Russians or the USA. The rest of the world was just saying don't push the little red buttons. They wanted neither side to win. If the Russians won then we would all be speaking Russian and odds are living in abject poverty. Because as we know the Russian system was very corrupt. The Russians had no problem killing off people they don't like. Shoot they killed off 22 million of there own people after world war II though the brake up. Everyone always cries about the Jews 8 million vs. 22 million hummm...

But as we know the USA was the super power left standing with the only other communist country's left being NK and china and Vietnam. Even though china is really hard pressed to be called a communist state any more. They have figured out that the only way to make it is though capitalism.

Well back to the point at hand The USA has no one to hate and the world does not have two different sides to pick from any more. So you know how it goes they blame everything on the good old USA, even though the over look what the USA is doing for the rest of the world.

So what the world needs is some one to hate besides the USA. Some great dark evil power bent on world domination. Now some of you are saying that sounds like the USA well really what country would not like to be considered the 51 USA State? become a USA citizen over night? maybe the ones in Africa? na the would love it... wee we can move to the continental USA. Any poorer country would jump at the chance. All that add money... all publics works programs. All the mass migrations back to the USA.

Ok back on task. So we need another Hitler for the world to hate. Or the USA needs to drop off the map and stop helping people and sending out food and aid. Just spend all them billions apron billions on it self. What country would send 28 billion in aid to its former enemy Russian when it collapsed and millions if not billions of tones of food and medical supplies? Even though the mob snatched up all the food and sold it crazy prices.

So what would you like to see another Hitler or the USA take care of it self and let the world rot? Think about this if the USA closes its boarders all them outsourced jobs to India, chain, any number of other 3rd world country would dry up. Do you think having the worlds largest user of goods drop off the face of the world would not effect the world economy? Not to mention the USA produces 76% of the worlds food supply. Yes it would be hard in the states no more jap cars, and stuff would cost allot more. We would be forced to find different energy supply's.

Now ask your self what would happen if the worlds police man was gone? Do you really think NK would stay out of SK. Or how about India and Pakistan? There would be wars all over the place. Do you really think nato is going to be able to do anything. Not with out the USA.


So now we come to Option 3 The USA tricks the world into thinking that there is a new enemy from space. The USA is developing Hydrogen bombs that don't need a normal nuke to set them off. So there is only radiation during the explosion not after it. They also have but are not saying they have the good old neutron bomb. You know what we are talking about where it cooks people and leaves building standing. The are also working on a large amount of high energy based weapon systems. Including Plasma based weapons, good old lasers, energy waves weapons, Ionized partial electron cannons. You get the basic idea. Now the world is also funding the construction of a giant fusion power plant research complex in France or Japan. The USA being a major contributor. I think your are seeing what I'm getting at. All the USA has to do is make the world think they are being threatened by Aliens. Shoot even if they where real some people would think it was the USA playing tricks anyway. So with a power supply of fusion they get a highly impressive alien looking ship into orbit that is covered with ejectable panels that are made of stealth material. Then move it behind the moon. Then Play it up all Hollywood. Eject the panels and have it come up on the world. The USA of cores sets off the alarm bells. The world freaks out will they be peaceful or hostile.

so play it up have them not under stand our speech for a bit then learn it go for the hole badly done alien ascent. Do the hole we are a advanced scouting party of the itchier balls continuum. Say they are looking for planets to supply them with mineral and chemical's that they might need and as a possible food supply. Sure the world would not like this... So have odds are nato launch a weapon to try to nock out the ship.... OOOO to bad it was destroyed before it reached the target. Now the ship says I see you do not think we are capable of backing up our clams so they say you need proof of our power so now you will get it. Remember they are thinking of us as a food supply so they ware going to attack less populated area's. So they fire a assortment of H-bombs/neutron bombs along with bombardment from space with energy weapons. So they wipe the middle east off the face of the earth but oddly they only used neutron bombs on the oil producing area's maybe parts of Africa.
Now the Powerful USA can't take some one messing around in its playground and lunches a few rockets at the ship and one get though not destroying the ship but shooting it down. It crashes in the south west of the united states and is captured by the USA... The world cheers... Thank the maker that the USA build its missile shield. So for a few years the world loves the USA maybe up to 20 years they say the ship was totally destroyed and then later say that from the remains they reversed engineered weapon tech from it. Then it is denied once more.

So the side affect of all this is the world has some one else to blame for its problems. The middle east is no long a hot spot in the world its now a big lake of glass. So the world keeps turning and its written down in the books as a disaster and nothing more. It was later determined that the scout ship never called the rest of the fleet because they where still checking out the earth.

Yes its far fetched but really how far fetched is it? give it another 10-20 years and the tech will be around in black programs to make it happen. Ether this will happen or a Terrorist group bent on destroying all Muslims will pop up. That some how gets a hold of a few nukes or maybe a proto type American sub equipped with the new h-bombs that don't use nuke's for triggers. :m:

Terror. It's spelled Terror.

Why the hell is this in SciFi and not Cesspool?

ya noticed that after i posted it

I'm confused and I don't think that I'm the only one.

Just what colour is the sky in your world anyway? :-)

Here in Canada most people are glad they are not U.S. citizens (I have dual citizenship, myself). And I have travelled all over the world and frankly there are more people out there that dislike the U.S., than there are that like it.

Every once in a while the reason is as you say, jealousy; but most of it, is the attitude of arrogance that other nationalities receive from travelling Americans. I don't want you to think that I hate Americans, I don't. My mother was born in the U.S. and next year I intend to retire there. I am only saying this to hopefully open your eyes to what the rest of the world feels.

My wife works as a clerk in a souvenir shop and the American tourists are, by and large, an amazingly arrogant bunch. The other day a tourist got mad because my wife wouldn't give him his change in what he called "real money" (ie. U.S. currency). My wife tried to point out that, as this coutry is separate from the U.S., we have our own currency and she is required to use it. He was having nothing of it and stalked off, apparently to find a shop that uses "real money". I wish him good luck.

It would be easy to say that this encounter was atypical, but it isn't. It is representative of almost 90% of the U.S. tourists. We have a great selection of tourists from all over the world and ALL of the complaints are from American tourists who want it "just like it is back home."

In your "final solution" (phrase is used intentionally), you say that "they "(all the people of the world, I presume) would change places with you in a shot. Well that's not true, but the fact that you believe it to be, is the root of the problem. You have been taught since birth that the U.S. is the greatest country in the world and it very easy to see why you could make a case for it.

What you don't seem to realize is that other people in the world have been just as brainwashed by their countries as you have by yours (and I mine). They believe that their country is the greatest in the world, and they aren't going to change their mind just because you tell them to. No matter how hard you yell and how many troops you send.

You see yourself as "the world's policemen", but they see you as the world's loud, obnoxious, bully. By the way, "Peacekeeping" was invented in Canada and we have a Nobel Peace prize to prove it. Canada has half it's armed forces in peacekeeping missions at any given minute, whereas the U.S. has barely 10% involved in peacekeeping missions (and I'm being generous by including Iraq in that definition).

No matter how much you may believe it, two cars in every driveway and a TV in every room, is NOT the goal of most people out there.

I hope you haven't taken this as an attack on your views (it's not), but rather as the presentation of an equally valid view, abet quite different then your own.

I got no problem with your view's at all. What I was trying to say was not developed countrys would be willing to become states they are just as arrogant as the USA. But third world nations I at least dont consider canada third world. I have spent some time out side of the states not around the world but mexico, france, england, spain, jamaca, few other little countrys in the gulf. From what I have seen I like the USA the best. England was ok to visit but hate the roads and the food geezzz. France well the french anuff said on that. The country in the gulf are just a little to touchie for my taste eather I don't like people coming up and trying to force there goods on me. "Or trade me for my shoe's."


I personly would love to see the USA Close it boarders down search out all illigal imgrants and fix the hole imigration system and cut off aid to the world along with military asistance for a few year. OOO and the key thing stop exporting food. Everyone seems to want the USA to go down. I would love to see how the world did with out us for 10-20 years.

http://www.ctrlaltdel-online.com/images/comics/_0_20030607.jpg

Isn't this suppose to be about scifi subject matter? I'm still confused :confused:

I like that comic. It's probably the best thing in this thread.

As an american I take offense to this cartoon! :D ( Yes it is funny as hell).

Ah I love Ctrl+Alt+Del...

...it's like looking into a mirror, only my name isn't Ethan and my girlfriend doesn't like gaming.

I personly would love to see the USA Close it boarders down search out all illigal imgrants and fix the hole imigration system and cut off aid to the world along with military asistance for a few year. OOO and the key thing stop exporting food. Everyone seems to want the USA to go down. I would love to see how the world did with out us for 10-20 years.I don’t think you realize how much the US needs the world.

For example, how many cheap little things in your home where made in the US? Like maybe your TV or PC or MP3 player, Fridge, Car, Carpet, Plate ware, Video Game, carpet, hell the whole f*cking house :) Oh sure they could be made in the US – but then you probably wouldn’t be able to afford many of them!

What about oil? The US absolutely needs ME oil – not the other way around. The ME could get all it’s goodies from Asia, cut the US off and probably do just fine. Certainly the people don’t see much from the US anyway.

What about investment? Do you think that the US dollar is really worth what it’s valued at. Yeah right! Just wait until China floats in 10 years. Bye Bye world economic dominance 5 years after wards.

Finally, many of these 3rd world nations are in debt up to their ass to the West with interest on said loans you seem to flout. Whose fault is that? The poor people who seen none of it? Is it your fault if I loan your corrupt brother 10 billion dollars and he blows buying and investing in Western stuff (funny enough the money then returns from whence it came). Then all of a sudden you are stuck paying the bill? Why? You didn’t get any money. Well that’s the typical 3rd world countries story. Loan to a dictator and stick the people with the bill. Well, if you think that’s fine – I have some student loans you can start paying back for me :D

Lastly, I’m from the US. I migrated to Australia when I was 28. I can tell you AU is a much better to live in than the US.

As for the world needing a bad guy. What the world needs is American’s to act civilized when their visiting other countries. It’s called manners – many Americans lack it. God only knows they make ME want to punch them in the nose and I’M an American! :) It’s amazing such a small-mind can make so much noise about nothing.

Michael;
Lastly, I’m from the US. I migrated to Australia when I was 28. I can tell you AU is a much better to live in than the US.
Your opinion is what it is.

Tell us why the US is the prefered destination of the majority of immigrants on the planet?

Tell us why not very many people are leaving the US for other places.

Maybe diversity is not your thing.

The answer to you is money , Mr.G
(at least it is viewed as it (a big bag of easy money) by most people from this part of the world)
I for sure have no wishes whatsoever to even wet my feet in the usa, because I have other values higher than it (as unbelievable as it may sound)

Your opinion is what it is.True. So, from my perspective AU is the better place to live.

Tell us why the US is the preferred destination of the majority of immigrants on the planet?Hollywood and economic opportunity.

- I know a number of people from Asia that think the US is the best place to make money and therefore want to move to the US. If they could make money, say in China, then that’s where they want to move. Actually, now that China’s economy is picking up - a number of my Chinese friends that did want to move to the US now want to move to Beijing, Nanjing or Shanghai.

- I have a friend from Thailand, she really couldn’t wait to visit the US. I told her it wasn’t going to be like in the moves. When she returned she said she would have never believed there could be so many poor people in the US cities. Everywhere! She thought it was sad so many people were offering to wash her windows at the corners just to make a buck. Subsequently she turned down the job in the US (even after being granted a 10 year work visa) and moved back to Thailand.

- My partner is Japanese. She also couldn’t wait to see the US. One month later and she couldn’t wait to get out. Of course she didn’t mind vacationing in NY. If you consider NY part of the US. I certainly don’t think it represents America. But that said she’d never want to live there. LA was the worst place she'd EVER been (me too by the way) followed by Washington. Similar to Noi (above) Yuka was shocked to see so many poor in US cities.

- Lastly, two Indian friends of mine were offered 10 year work visas to work in the US (in Law). One went and one stayed. The one that went decided after a year to move back to India.

I’m not saying all people who visit the US want to leave. But I will say I have met very few that wanted to stay. From my personal experence, of those it was always the economic benefit that prompted their decision. I happen to work in the sciences and the US has a strong fellowship program. Also, it’s seen as a good point on your resume’ to work at a prestigious US University. So a lot of people do move to the US and then move back home once they get some experience points and connections.

Tell us why not very many people are leaving the US for other places. That could be said of almost any country - most people never leave their country of birth.

Maybe diversity is not your thing.?? What is that supposed to me? I’ve traveled to almost every continent on the planet. I’ve always tried to learn as much language as I could before leaving (Spanish, Russian, Japanese) and have always been greeted well. As a matter of fact – I have been told over and over again what a nice guy I am for being an American :eek:

A few examples of mine about the typical American:

1) I was TOLD Australia was the same size as Hawaii. It took some convincing to get them to agree it was the same size as the intercontinental US.

2) I was asked “which State is Australia?” at the post office.

3) I was asked: “Can you speak Australian for me?” They refused to believe that AU speaks English. Weird?

4) In AU I witnessed a drunk American yell “we’ve got the bombs” after getting pissed off that no one really liked him and was taking the piss out of him by calling him a yank/sepo. This was just before he tossed a chair through the front stained glass windows of the bar and subsequently got his assed kick. (I kept my accent low for the rest of that night! - Canadian mate!)

5) I can not name the number of times I’ve been with an American and had to listen to them compare EVERYTHING to America and how much it’s better in America. I always answer: Then go f*cking back to America.

6) I was at a dinner in San Diego with a bunch of Doctors from around the world. I was commenting on the excellent manner in which the Japanese host was pronouncing words containing R and L. The American, needing to say something (as many Americans do) quickly interjected “Yeah I thought you spoke “good” American too”. The table happened to be half full of English. They looked at me and I said "Hey he said it not me".
He had no idea.
(true story)

7) Last weekend I called home and was talking to my uncle. He went on and on about how it’s always America that has to go and set things right. No one ever wants to help us. (He was referring to Iraq). I said, yeah but you know 30000 civilians have died and I think you’d find almost 50% of the people would vote Saddam back rather than have the US there. His reply: So what. It’s not about the vote.

?? I left it at that.

8) My Malay friend said you’d almost want to puke there are so many Americans prowling the streets looking for under 15 year old girls or boys. so hey Mr. G maybe some Americans do leave America?

9) In Spain I witnessed an American getting mad that the café owner didn’t speak “American”

10) In St. Petersburg I witnessed an American southern hick complain that the menu wasn’t in “American” and then go on to bash the place saying American steaks are so much better than Russian shit. Funny enough the Waiter spoke fluent English and in a Southern-drawl told the guy to get f*cked. The entire restaurant erupted in applause! Which says something huh? Maybe they're ALL just jealous? Jealous of the Southern Hick right? It couldn't be that Amercians act like ass holes when out of America? No they all just want to come to the States and are just so bloody jealous - becasue hey the US is the BEST right??

incidentally these stories could go on and on and on . . .

anyone else have a good one?

Shad...
After reading sixty percent of your post something came over me, a phenomena I've never experienced before - I lost the motivation to read.

Hey, dude, the patriotism you have for your country is not a bad thing. Just keep in mind your point of view flows from that patriotism.

The Russians had no problem killing off people they don't like. Shoot they killed off 22 million of there own people after world war II though the brake up. Everyone always cries about the Jews 8 million vs. 22 million hummm...
Would you be complaining if everyone always 'cried about' 22 million Russians, and not the 8 million Jews? Both were horrible massacres, just because someone else's massacre killed more people doesn't make the holocaust any less horrific.

Well back to the point at hand The USA has no one to hate and the world does not have two different sides to pick from any more. So you know how it goes they blame everything on the good old USA, even though the over look what the USA is doing for the rest of the world.
If there was absolutely no reason for the rest of the world in general to hate the USA, then the rest of the world wouldn't hate USA.


So what the world needs is some one to hate besides the USA. Some great dark evil power bent on world domination.
Like Saddam Huessein and his weapons of mass destruction?


Now some of you are saying that sounds like the USA well really what country would not like to be considered the 51 USA State? become a USA citizen over night? maybe the ones in Africa? na the would love it... wee we can move to the continental USA. Any poorer country would jump at the chance. All that add money... all publics works programs. All the mass migrations back to the USA.
Other people have responded to this plenty well enough.
I'm just wondering if it slipped past you that you said most of the world hates the USA, then said that they would want to be a part of it.

Now ask your self what would happen if the worlds police man was gone? Do you really think NK would stay out of SK. Or how about India and Pakistan? There would be wars all over the place. Do you really think nato is going to be able to do anything. Not with out the USA.
The world's police man? That does seem to be the role the US is trying to take on. More of a vigilante than a policeman, as evidenced by exhibit Operation Iraqi Freedom (not Operation Iraqi Liberation, any guesses why? Look at the initials. That and I doubt that GWB would understand what Liberation means, the man choked on a pretzel.) Vigilanteism leads to anarchy. So when do you draw the line? Or do you wake up one day and realise that a Canadian's dog has pissed on an American's lawn, so you send in the troops, Operation Canadian Freedom style?


So now we come to Option 3 The USA tricks the world into thinking that there is a new enemy from space.
Yeah, I'm sure everyone was thinking exactly the same thing.

The USA is developing Hydrogen bombs that don't need a normal nuke to set them off. So there is only radiation during the explosion not after it. They also have but are not saying they have the good old neutron bomb. You know what we are talking about where it cooks people and leaves building standing. The are also working on a large amount of high energy based weapon systems. Including Plasma based weapons, good old lasers, energy waves weapons, Ionized partial electron cannons. You get the basic idea. Now the world is also funding the construction of a giant fusion power plant research complex in France or Japan. The USA being a major contributor. I think your are seeing what I'm getting at. All the USA has to do is make the world think they are being threatened by Aliens. Shoot even if they where real some people would think it was the USA playing tricks anyway. So with a power supply of fusion they get a highly impressive alien looking ship into orbit that is covered with ejectable panels that are made of stealth material. Then move it behind the moon. Then Play it up all Hollywood. Eject the panels and have it come up on the world. The USA of cores sets off the alarm bells. The world freaks out will they be peaceful or hostile.

so play it up have them not under stand our speech for a bit then learn it go for the hole badly done alien ascent. Do the hole we are a advanced scouting party of the itchier balls continuum. Say they are looking for planets to supply them with mineral and chemical's that they might need and as a possible food supply. Sure the world would not like this... So have odds are nato launch a weapon to try to nock out the ship.... OOOO to bad it was destroyed before it reached the target. Now the ship says I see you do not think we are capable of backing up our clams so they say you need proof of our power so now you will get it. Remember they are thinking of us as a food supply so they ware going to attack less populated area's. So they fire a assortment of H-bombs/neutron bombs along with bombardment from space with energy weapons. So they wipe the middle east off the face of the earth but oddly they only used neutron bombs on the oil producing area's maybe parts of Africa.
Now the Powerful USA can't take some one messing around in its playground and lunches a few rockets at the ship and one get though not destroying the ship but shooting it down. It crashes in the south west of the united states and is captured by the USA... The world cheers... Thank the maker that the USA build its missile shield. So for a few years the world loves the USA maybe up to 20 years they say the ship was totally destroyed and then later say that from the remains they reversed engineered weapon tech from it. Then it is denied once more.

So the side affect of all this is the world has some one else to blame for its problems. The middle east is no long a hot spot in the world its now a big lake of glass. So the world keeps turning and its written down in the books as a disaster and nothing more. It was later determined that the scout ship never called the rest of the fleet because they where still checking out the earth.

Yes its far fetched but really how far fetched is it? give it another 10-20 years and the tech will be around in black programs to make it happen. Ether this will happen or a Terrorist group bent on destroying all Muslims will pop up. That some how gets a hold of a few nukes or maybe a proto type American sub equipped with the new h-bombs that don't use nuke's for triggers. :m:
So you have no ethical issues with the murder of millions of people, just because they live in the middle east? I don't think I need to point out that your plan causes the death of more than 22 million. But they don't matter do they, because they're just Muslim sand monkeys? Oh you didn't say that, but it's implied, after all, the middle east is now just "a big lake of glass". Not the grave of the millions that lived there. Your idea makes me sick, and the fact that you suggested it so seriously makes me more so.
So what happens when this conspiracy gets uncovered 3 years later, and the people who set it up are tried for genocide, and locked away? The USA is shamed once again, and everyone hates you even more. So the only end you've achieved is mass murder. Congratulations.

Thats a damn good reply, Michael.

anyone else have a good one?

That American pilot in Brazil giving the finger, to the Brazilian authorities after the Brazilians initiated the same draconian tactics that the US is using against tourists from other nations. Or when I went to Florida some Americans we were talking to wondered if we “lived in igloos”. A great deal of Americans are ignorant of not only the world, but their own country. The education system probably makes ignorance of other regions, or people’s necessary to create scenarios like Iraq, in which 65% supported the war, yet over 90% could not point to Iraq on a map. This ignorance creates people like Mr.G, American exceptionalism needs ignorance, and trust me we see it every day.

American exceptionalism needs ignorance, and trust me we see it every day.True


One more story,

A friend of mine from MI came here to visit for a month. We were walking around downtown when all of a sudden he said: "Jeez there sure are a lot of foreigners around here"

:eek:

A friend of mine from MI came here to visit for a month. We were walking around downtown when all of a sudden he said: "Jeez there sure are a lot of foreigners around here"

To Americans, foreigners are "nonwhites" in a "white" country. Really, even here, an Hispanic naturalized citizen will be referred to as a foreigner before a soft-spoken, onion-white English tourist.

Strange, indeed.

Okay, my one America-bashing story for this splinter of the topic:

• When I was 12, my parents thought it a good idea to send my brother and I on a summer-camp bicycle tour of the San Juan Islands and Canada. While we were north of the border, we were standing around trying to sound cool when a girl said to one of my counteparts (all of 15 years old, the guy), "Are you American?" He shrugged, reached into his pocket, pulled out a hundred dollar bill and tickled her nose with it. "What do you think, baby?" he asked. "You want a little piece of this, honey?"

To be honest, I can't say the intervening 19 years have done much to counter that image.

Think about being in a museum, and suddenly somebody's kids come racing by, squealing, laughing, and crashing into people and even nearly toppling an exhibit. You complain about it, but it turns out they're children of a benefactor, so the museum won't kick them out. Meanwhile, the babysitter shows up and you think, "Ah ... at last, some peace to enjoy this museum." But the babysitter just starts jawing with a friend. "You hear about that f@cking c@cksucker and how he tried to f@ck Joe over? F@cking piece of sh@t, what the f@ck does he think? Huh? Oh, f@ck, I'm f@cking cool?! F@ck him. F@ck him in his f@cking ear! The stupid f@ck! Oh, f@ck, did you hear about ....."

Picasso? Degas? Cezanne? F@ck 'em. What the f@ck makes you so superior that you should f@cking be able to f@cking tell the punks to shut the f@ck up?

(And that is my prejudicial assessment of how many foreigners view Americans according to certain behavior, and a critical view I accept.

By this time, I don't even want a proactive demonstration otherwise from my American neighbors. I just want them to cease going out of their way to be a pain in the ass. The rest we can work on when they're capable of understanding it.)

Thats a damn good reply, Michael.
All it said was tribalism persists, and people flock to opportunity.

Nothing new there -- other than opportunity isn't determined by pride, as much as by performance.

;)

Hate to break it to the folks that love to hold the US out as a paragon of prejudice and ignorance but you really should get out more. I can assure you all of the traits you are attributing as being common of americans are alive and well over here in europe. It all depends on where you go and whom you talk to. The US at least has the excuse of being insulated something europe can't claim.

The US at least has the excuse of being insulated something europe can't claim.

One word about Europe:

Finland.


A sentence on the US:

the US has borders with Mexico and Canada if I am not mistaken. Of course they decided to isolate themselves from mexico. And Canada is probably just ignored.

One word about Europe:

Finland.


A sentence on the US:

the US has borders with Mexico and Canada if I am not mistaken. Of course they decided to isolate themselves from mexico. And Canada is probably just ignored.

Spurious there can be no comparing the insulation of the US and western europe, even scandinavia though more insulated than the rest is still an integral part of europe, (EU and all). What happens in Germany, or sweden affects things in Finland in a much more direct way than what happens in Mexico affects the US. The scale is just completely different and 1 of the 2 countries that borders the US speaks the same language and has a very similar culture *ducks as canadians throw whatever is handy*

Of course, but it is a choice the US made and still makes to be isolated.

The geographic isolation has more to do with physical distances than choice. The choice would come with government policy more than individual choice. I would bet that there are still a boatload more americans that have never actually met or maybe even seen a foreigner than europeans.

I gather that the US is build on immigrants, so your reasoning doesn't really sound very sound to me.

Immigrants haven't traditionally dispersed from seaboard population centers until some time after immigration, though that has been changing in recent years. Again the US is huge immigrants in NYC, Miami, LA, Detroit etc. doesn't mean they are everywhere or everyone has met one. Your average fourth generation irish or italian american is just as american as someone who's family is 10th or 12th generation.

As an example I have relatives in North Carolina, Virginia, and Indiana who had never met a foreigner (several had never even seen one) until they met my wife :p

Are the australians doing it differently then?

Couple of things
Australia is part of the commonwealth
australia has a much smaller population
despite being almost as large as the US the population is concentrated in a much smaller area, coastal metro regions for the most part.

but still...it is largely made up of immigrants. In that way it should be comparable to the US...but it isn't.

It is part of the commonwealth so that in itself makes them more focused on europe. In addition I don't think australia has gone through periods of isolationism like the US

why did the US go through periods of isolationism?

Their own choice?

Like I said earlier isolation because of policy choice not personal choice. If you were referring to policy then I misunderstood you.

And I misunderstood you.

Although we cannot shove away our personal responsibility to not get to know the world we live in so easily I guess. Everybody should have the personal responsibility to learn about other cultures and people in the world.

And I misunderstood you.

Although we cannot shove away our personal responsibility to not get to know the world we live in so easily I guess. Everybody should have the personal responsibility to learn about other cultures and people in the world.

I of course agree with you there but part of my point is that that personal responsibility to get to know other cultures is a much more tangible thing in europe than it is in rural or suburban america. The world is getting smaller however so things are changing in the US too and better sooner than later.

England was ok to visit but hate the roads and the food geezzz.

You're right, the food in England sucks. You can't go anywhere without there being a McDonalds or a Starbucks to ruin things.

And English roads. Yes, they have bends in, so take your hand off your big gulp, disengage the cruise control, and use the steering wheel, it was put there for a reason.

u obviously don’t know US history then do you :rolleyes:

Since WW2 the US has bombed over 22 countries has showed serious aggression to over 56 and its sanctions affect billions. it gives away almost all of its foreign aid to Israel which is rich as it is and spends in ONE YEAR 10 times the amount of money on weapons as it would take to completely rid the world of hunger. the US is in more debt then EVERY single country's debt added together and MULTIPED by 2.5!! it single handily accounts for 2/3rds of the worlds debt although it accounts for 6% of the world population and has 50% of the worlds wealth!! it supports dictators and tyrants all around the world. it personally commits atrocities which it hides with its media and also is involved in atrocities by supporting, supplying, training and media supporting these atrocities and dictators.

and besides that, forget about giving free (well actually in a sense it OWES these countries) food bags to other countries. Americans don’t realise just how great they could be with the amount of money and resources it has. you could turn the American people into a super intelligent and effective race and turn America into an absolute Utopia with not a single dodgy or poor spot and make crime basically non existent. but it seems America is PURPOSEFULLY ignoring these issues inside its own country (i believe this is because of freemasonry but enough with conspiracy theories, the belong in the cesspool)

so shadarlocoth, i suppose your a proud American patriot, well think for a bit about how great America could be and then think about how great its not. anyway your country will pay for all of this when America is no longer a superpower and that is likely to happen within a hundred years so make way for the next super power, whoever that may be shadarlocoth

Path;
Immigrants haven't traditionally dispersed from seaboard population centers until some time after immigration, though that has been changing in recent years. Again the US is huge immigrants in NYC, Miami, LA, Detroit etc. doesn't mean they are everywhere or everyone has met one. Your average fourth generation irish or italian american is just as american as someone who's family is 10th or 12th generation.
Now operating a business half of whose client base is comprised of legal and illegal immigrants, I can both attest and assure you that immigrants to the US have dispersed to all corners of the continent and everywhere in between -- including the most isolated regions, where illegal, psycho-active chemical commodities are grown/brewed.

Many of my immigrant clients are making more money than me -- with sweat and almost no formal education.

They're all over your town, and you aren't even seeing them ;)

Many of my immigrant clients are making more money than me -- with sweat and almost no formal education.
By dealing only in cash -- thus avoiding taxable income 'issues'.

Path;

Now operating a business half of whose client base is comprised of legal and illegal immigrants, I can both attest and assure you that immigrants to the US have dispersed to all corners of the continent and everywhere in between -- including the most isolated regions, where illegal, psycho-active chemical commodities are grown/brewed.

Many of my immigrant clients are making more money than me -- with sweat and almost no formal education.

They're all over your town, and you aren't even seeing them ;)

Mr G I was not referring to myself or my town when I lived in the US it was in Phila PA with lotsa immigrants and several as good friends. I was referring to the fact that I do actually have relatives who had never met a foreigner. But I think maybe it doesn't have much bearing upon the main point I was trying to make anywho.

I was in charlottersville for a scientific meeting and you would think that the administrative people at this meeting would be used to dealing with foreigners because they are normally work as administrative people at the local university.

They were these 2 ladies with the generic flower dresses looking typically american, wrong glasses, chubby, wrong hair. And I talked to them a bit , and I was a fucking curiosity item to them. I was like an exotic island come to little charlottesville. I talked to them about just moving to a different country because it is fun and I saw them mentally backing away;' moving to a different country? that is impossible!'. I didn't realize at that point in time that they probably never even left the US. Maybe not even the state. We had our little chats the next few days during the meeting, because I was something exotic and I was bored. There were hardly any europeans (that made it boring, believe me). We had a party at one point. But most people went home at 8PM (I'm used to 4AM for parties) and nobody was left at all at 9PM.

I guess I can understand how little americans understand about the world. If I am exotic as a Dutch person, imagine how exotic a real exotic person must be?!?! (that said, I am a rather strange person).

I was in charlottersville for a scientific meeting and you would think that the administrative people at this meeting would be used to dealing with foreigners because they are normally work as administrative people at the local university.

They were these 2 ladies with the generic flower dresses looking typically american, wrong glasses, chubby, wrong hair. And I talked to them a bit , and I was a fucking curiosity item to them. I was like an exotic island come to little charlottesville. I talked to them about just moving to a different country because it is fun and I saw them mentally backing away;' moving to a different country? that is impossible!'. I didn't realize at that point in time that they probably never even left the US. Maybe not even the state. We had our little chats the next few days during the meeting, because I was something exotic and I was bored. There were hardly any europeans (that made it boring, believe me). We had a party at one point. But most people went home at 8PM (I'm used to 4AM for parties) and nobody was left at all at 9PM.

I guess I can understand how little americans understand about the world. If I am exotic as a Dutch person, imagine how exotic a real exotic person must be?!?! (that said, I am a rather strange person).

Strange indeed :p

Reminds me of a funny one I heard from a lovely lady in the first year I was living in Norway. She was asking me something about what makes a woman interesting or some such, I deferred "oh what do I know" then she said "well you are an exotic guy I want your opinion" The first thing that popped into my head was, "EXOTIC!? but I'm from New Jersey!" Guess exotic to many just means "not from around here"

I have an opinion on how to win the war on terror. Spend the money necessary to rebuild Iraq and Afganistan. Encourgage international law enforcement cooperation in order to capture terrorists. Send in international peacekeepers to settle the Isreali-Palestinian issue. Start running a benevolent human rights based foreign policy. If we do these things I think that we will easily win the war on terrorism.

I have an opinion on how to win the war on terror. Spend the money necessary to rebuild Iraq and Afganistan. Encourgage international law enforcement cooperation in order to capture terrorists. Send in international peacekeepers to settle the Isreali-Palestinian issue. Start running a benevolent human rights based foreign policy. If we do these things I think that we will easily win the war on terrorism.
A refreshing voice of reasoned argument rather than American-bashing (though that is fun ;) ), but do you think that the USA will be doing any of those things any time soon? I mean, it would be a little hypocritical for the USA to encourage international law enforcement after ignoring the UN and going into Iraq.

Well back to the point at hand The USA has no one to hate and the world does not have two different sides to pick from any more. So you know how it goes they blame everything on the good old USA, even though the over look what the USA is doing for the rest of the world.
What is the USA doing? More wars?

...well really what country would not like to be considered the 51 USA State?
Brasil, Canada... and many others, And no, Canada is NOT the 51st state.... ;)

become a USA citizen over night?
Yeeeeeeeeeeewwwwwwwwww....

maybe the ones in Africa? na the would love it... wee we can move to the continental USA. Any poorer country would jump at the chance.
I think they would prefer Canada - one of the best countries in the world to live in. The highest in living standarts throwout most of the last decade. Or maybe Norway, where bums are given tons of money.... ;)

So what would you like to see another Hitler or the USA take care of it self and let the world rot? Think about this if the USA closes its boarders all them outsourced jobs to India, chain, any number of other 3rd world country would dry up.
Not really. All those countries have a HUGE internal demand. They only need better distribution of earnings! Then their internal economis could grow and become less dependent on trade....

Do you think having the worlds largest user of goods drop off the face of the world would not effect the world economy?
Would be great! At first it could be shaky.... but the horizont would be so bright without someone using all the resources and destroying the environment!

Not to mention the USA produces 76% of the worlds food supply.
Not-really. Brasil is one of the greatest food producers. Much bigger then US, for that matter.

As for the rest.... with all the respect, I would like to say that you have a great imagination! :D


And please remember what barsoom said in the first page. It's sooooooo true...

cckieran, I can see what you are saying. In my post I am not saying what is likely to happen. I am saying what should happen.

eh is that not a normal reaction spuriousmonkey, Im European, been to many of the european contries but still find people from other places interresting and excotis, because i dont see them everyday.

Maybe they're ALL just jealous? Jealous of the Southern Hick right? It couldn't be that Amercians act like ass holes when out of America? No they all just want to come to the States and are just so bloody jealous - becasue hey the US is the BEST right??

The United States is the best. Just get over it. We have the best collegiate education system on the planet - for some odd reason, you don't hear about millions and millions of foreign students flocking to, say, Pakistan to study in Pakistani universities, or anywhere else. We are the most diverse nation on this planet because since our inception people from somewhere else have wanted to come here. Even today, there are millions upon millions of people who would move to the U.S. with nothing but the clothes on their backs if it was possible. Every ethnicity and religion you can think of is represented here. We are the world's oldest and most successful constitutional democracy. Not once, not twice, but three times we stepped up to the plate when our allies couldn't get it done alone and beat down totalitarianism. We're now doing it a fourth time. We're bordered on two sides by massive oceans and on the other two sides by two of our closest friends. We're the richest country on the planet. We're the strongest country on the planet. We're the most prosperous. 50% of the world's research and development takes place in this country.

Just deal with it. We're better than you are. Our friends are the same as we are. Cry me a river if you don't like it. I don't see much freedom going on between Morocco and India, save in Israel, whether your prejudiced self admits it or not. Your religion isn't any better than anyone else's, your people certainly aren't, your governments sure as hell aren't...

Could it be that Americans act like "ass holes" because you act like "ass holes"? You can't say the word America without getting in an insult. Maybe every time I say a country, I should mention something wrong with your country. But wait, if I acted like you, I'd be an arrogant bullying American!

So what does that make you?

ROFL, aah that was good, thanks.

The United States is the best. Just get over it. We have the best collegiate education system on the planet - for some odd reason, you don't hear about millions and millions of foreign students flocking to, say, Pakistan to study in Pakistani universities, or anywhere else.
What about Oxford and Cambridge? Or did you forget that the UK exists?


We are the most diverse nation on this planet because since our inception people from somewhere else have wanted to come here. Even today, there are millions upon millions of people who would move to the U.S. with nothing but the clothes on their backs if it was possible. Every ethnicity and religion you can think of is represented here.[QUOTE]
And yet you still manage to all hate each other. Why aren't organisations like the KKK flourishing in Australia, which is just as if not more multicultural than the USA?

[QUOTE=Eng Grez]We are the world's oldest and most successful constitutional democracy. Not once, not twice, but three times we stepped up to the plate when our allies couldn't get it done alone and beat down totalitarianism. We're now doing it a fourth time.
Yes, you sure are. Saddam was really threatening us badly with his weapons of mass destruction there. I suppose you're going to say that it was on humanitarian grounds that you invaded Iraq.

We're bordered on two sides by massive oceans and on the other two sides by two of our closest friends.
So that's why you let all those Mexicans through the Border without any sort of control. They're your closest friends! Oops.

We're the richest country on the planet. We're the strongest country on the planet. We're the most prosperous. 50% of the world's research and development takes place in this country.
I refer you to Michael's post about poor people on the first page.

Just deal with it. We're better than you are.
Isn't there something in your declaration of independence about all men being created equal?

Our friends are the same as we are.
Then why don't you hear the rest of the world bitching about Canadians, Mexicans, the British, or Australians?

Cry me a river if you don't like it. I don't see much freedom going on between Morocco and India, save in Israel, whether your prejudiced self admits it or not. Your religion isn't any better than anyone else's, your people certainly aren't, your governments sure as hell aren't...
Yeah our people are. Australians kick arse! That's right 'arse'. I say 'arse', 'colour', 'favourite', 'encyclopaedia' and 'honour'. Oh, that was a bit childish.
Are you supporting the Bush administration or the American political system in general?

Could it be that Americans act like "ass holes" because you act like "ass holes"?
No, I'm pretty sure some Americans would act like arseholes even if I was being as nice as I could be. Every country in the world has their share of arseholes. I think America just got a larger proportion of them.

You can't say the word America without getting in an insult. Maybe every time I say a country, I should mention something wrong with your country. But wait, if I acted like you, I'd be an arrogant bullying American!
So do Australians ask you to 'speak American', thinking that it's a different language to English? Or has a Canadian asked you which province of Canada America is? Or have you met an Englishman who thought that the USA was the same size as Ireland? Come on, let's hear some of your stories about arseholes from countries other than the US of A.

So what does that make you?
Well, that makes me freakin awesome.


Do you agree with shadarlocoth's assessment of the war on terror? That the USA should trick the rest of the world into letting it nuke the hell out of the middle east?

First of Eng Grez, America sucks arse just live with it. I mean you ELECTED GW Bush for Christ’s sake! Enough said :cool:

The United States is the best. Just get over it.I’m am an American remember. When you say best you should mention what you think it so “the best” about America. And none of this we’ve get the more gold metals then anyone else . . therefore for some reason my life is truly enhanced.

I’m saying for you. Personally, what is so great about living in the States?

What is you’re comparison? Where else have you lived, doing what, for how long?

We have the best collegiate education system on the planet - for some odd reason, you don't hear about millions and millions of foreign students flocking to, say, Pakistan to study in Pakistani universities, or anywhere else. Sure pick Pakistan – now there’s a good one for comparison!.

Even you must think lowly of American universities if you have to reach that far to pick a comparison.

Why not mention Oxford?

The education system K-12 is a joke. In some areas America falls below some African nations. But let’s take a look at across the board educational standards:

1. Norway
2. Finland
3. Australia
4. United Kingdom
5. New Zealand
.....
14. United States

Wow so great. In at #14 the USA is absolutely the BEST!

We are the most diverse nation on this planet because since our inception people from somewhere else have wanted to come here. Even today, there are millions upon millions of people who would move to the U.S. with nothing but the clothes on their backs if it was possible.I have nothing against diversity. My partner after all is Japanese.

However, don’t presume that because America is somewhat diverse on its coastal cities that therefore diversity is the “Best”.

That’s just idiotic.

It is these exact sort of egocentric mental retardations that make Americans appear most notably stupid to people of other countries.

America is multicultural, America is the Best - ergo multicultural is the Best.
America has handguns, America is the Best - ergo citizens owning handguns is the Best.
America makes up BS to invade sovereign states, America is the Best, ergo invading sovereign states is the Best.

Japanese must, by your definition, be very much “The Worst”. I mean Japan is after all quite monocultural. Funny enough their society appears to function rather well for them. Go Figure?

There is something to be said for world in which every nation doesn’t have a Starbucks on the corner. I actually like to visit other countries for exactly that – their uniqueness and distinction, which comes from having a separate and characteristic culture.

Every ethnicity and religion you can think of is represented here. So? Oh yeah I forgot: America has every ethnicity and religion represented here, America is the Best - ergo having every ethnicity and religion is the Best.

(shame on those Germans for banning Scientology a few years back! Good thing the US butted its nose in , per usual, and made sure the Germans reversed that decision in their own country! US Assholes)

We are the world's oldest and most successful constitutional democracy.So? Oh yeah I forgot America has the oldest constitution, America is the Best - ergo having the oldest constitution is the Best. (notice that just by uttering the word "America" I needn’t even add “most successful” - - - isn’t it evident?

Incidentally Mr. Constitution, Afghanistan gave women the right to vote before America. Oh and didn’t that wondrous constitution allow for the trade in humans for over a hundred years?

Get over it.

Not once, not twice, but three times we stepped up to the plate when our allies couldn't get it done alone and beat down totalitarianism.Personally I think this was definitely one of Americas biggest mistakes.

We're now doing it a fourth time.30000 civilians, let me repeat – 30000 civilians, already dead. Does that bother you?

Little children killed.

Are you a least bit bothered by little children killed?

Yeah maybe - but it's worth it to YOU right?

And you are American. So your values are the BEST ergo killing kids is OK - when America does it. Because when America does it they do it for the BEST reasons. So its OK then huh?

Even Saddam would be hard matched to kill that many purely innocent. Not to mention what the number of “insurgents/terrorist” (some may even say freedom fighters) killed by the US – god only knows what that number is?

We're bordered on two sides by massive oceansCombined with the most arable land - I’d say the this has something to do with the later attributes. Oh, don’t forget to mention the most trigger happy.

We're the richest country on the planet. You must say per person for this to make sense and it’s not the case. But that’s OK, I’ll concede some Americans do make a lot of money – although I think I read if you average it out, the average American hauls in a whooping ~23K per year?

WOW!

Regardless, if that’s what most important to you then live in your office and make as much of it as you can get your hands on. Of course you could do that anywhere. And that’s the point you seem to be missing. It’s the Gold Medal syndrome. Your life must just get better and better the more you see an American get a Gold Medal? Wow, the average Chinese life has just increased remarkably huh?

Per person is what matters (to the person) and it’s not great at all in the US. I believe that someone over 26 in AU makes around 12-15 dollars an hour as a minimum wage (what was it in the US $5.25? :D)

We're the strongest country on the planet. combined with your arrogance American have led this stupendous military might to kill millions upon millions of civilians (ie: women and children). Ranging everywhere from America’s own back yard with the slaughter of the natural inhabitants to the far east nuclear bombing of civilians in Japan (quarter of million a go) to the present day killing of 30000 civilians in the “liberation” of Iraq.

Not something to be proud of brother.

I’m sure you are anyway.

Your religion isn't any better than anyone else's, your people certainly aren't, your governments sure as hell aren't... What do you know of Australian governmental structure and what does that have to do with belief?

Could it be that Americans act like "ass holes" because you act like "ass holes"?No. Americans need no impetus to act like an asshole. For most it’s comes surprisingly natural.

You can't say the word America without getting in an insult. Maybe every time I say a country, I should mention something wrong with your country. But wait, if I acted like you, I'd be an arrogant bullying American!Oh, did you forget – I AM an American!!! :D

A song you may like: Dennis Leary - I'm An Asshole Lyrics (http://www.metrolyrics.com/lyrics/5742/Dennis_Leary/I'm_An_Asshole/)

The education system K-12 is a joke. In some areas America falls below some African nations. But let’s take a look at across the board educational standards:

1. Norway
2. Finland
3. Australia
4. United Kingdom
5. New Zealand
.....
14. United States

Source?

Personally I think this was definitely one of Americas biggest mistakes.

How so?

Not to mention what the number of “insurgents/terrorist” (some may even say freedom fighters) killed by the US – god only knows what that number is?

Freedom fighters, eh? Seeing how they're fighting against freedom, I don't see how anyone could call them that.

You must say per person for this to make sense and it’s not the case.

He said richest country. He didn't say anything about us being the wealthiest per capita.

although I think I read if you average it out, the average American hauls in a whooping ~23K per year?

This (http://www.co.larimer.co.us/compass/PerCapitaIncome_ec_ind.htm) site seems to think the average income in the United States is $31,632 as of 2003.

Per person is what matters (to the person) and it’s not great at all in the US. I believe that someone over 26 in AU makes around 12-15 dollars an hour as a minimum wage (what was it in the US $5.25? :D)

Australia's minimum wage: $11.35 per hour
United States' minimum wage: $5.15 per hour

1 USD (United States Dollar) = 1.39 AUD (Australia Dollars)

USD > AUD

to the present day killing of 30000 civilians in the “liberation” of Iraq.

Hmm... About a month ago the estimated death toll for Iraqi civilians was around 10,000 (and that was the high estimate) Was there some systematic mass murder of 20,000+ Iraqi civilians within the last month that I am unaware of? Please provide a link for me to look over, as I'm too lazy to look up imaginary statistics.

Australia's minimum wage: $11.35 per hour
United States' minimum wage: $5.15 per hour

1 USD (United States Dollar) = 1.39 AUD (Australia Dollars)

USD > AUD
That would make only 7.1585 AUD

He said richest country. He didn't say anything about us being the wealthiest per capita.
And Michael said that gross wealth isn't a true indicator of how rich the people of a nation are, it's wealth per capita that counts. Read the post, that's the point he was making.

Australia's minimum wage: $11.35 per hour
United States' minimum wage: $5.15 per hour

1 USD (United States Dollar) = 1.39 AUD (Australia Dollars)

USD > AUD
USD$1 > AUD$1. USD$5.15 < AUD$11.35
Come on. Think a bit before you post.

Hmm... About a month ago the estimated death toll for Iraqi civilians was around 10,000 (and that was the high estimate) Was there some systematic mass murder of 20,000+ Iraqi civilians within the last month that I am unaware of? Please provide a link for me to look over, as I'm too lazy to look up imaginary statistics.
So if it's 10,000 civillians murdered by the USA it's ok, but 30,000 it's not? That is still <b>10,000</b> civilians murdered.

EngGrez is a troll, and obviously has never left the South.

Even you must think lowly of American universities if you have to reach that far to pick a comparison.

Why not mention Oxford?

Okay then. France. Italy. Britain. Germany. We're still better. Ever heard of the Ivy League? Comparable to any group of colleges in Europe you want to mention. Carnegie Mellon University? You won't find a better technology university on this planet. Stanford, UCLA, the University of Pittsburgh? You won't find better medical schools anywhere. Northwestern? Best writing college around.

This is just indicative of the sorry state you find yourself in, Michael. Just get over it.

Well at least Eng Grez we know you didn't go to any of schools...its pretty evident. ;)

Also I would like to mention that most of the best professors in the US are actually like everything else...imported! :D

Okay then. France. Italy. Britain. Germany. We're still better. Ever heard of the Ivy League? Comparable to any group of colleges in Europe you want to mention. Carnegie Mellon University? You won't find a better technology university on this planet. Stanford, UCLA, the University of Pittsburgh? You won't find better medical schools anywhere. Northwestern? Best writing college around.

This is just indicative of the sorry state you find yourself in, Michael. Just get over it.

I smell trollflesh. Force is with me. I shall resist. :m:

Okay then. France. Italy. Britain. Germany. We're still better. Ever heard of the Ivy League? Comparable to any group of colleges in Europe you want to mention. Carnegie Mellon University? You won't find a better technology university on this planet. Stanford, UCLA, the University of Pittsburgh? You won't find better medical schools anywhere. Northwestern? Best writing college around.

This is just indicative of the sorry state you find yourself in, Michael. Just get over it.

I smell trollflesh. The force is with me. I shall resist. :m:

Well at least Eng Grez we know you didn't go to any of schools...its pretty evident. ;)

Funny how you single out other people for defamation of character when you yourself excel at this. Hasn't anyone ever told you that when you start personally name-calling someone, it only proves him right and you wrong. After that, it's all downhill.

Also, let me add that the U.S. military is the best in the world. Our technology is unparalleled. We take great pains to minimize civilian casualties. Most civilian casualties in Iraq are not thanks to American bombings, but rather to the cutting off of basic utilities, such as electricity and water, most of which were cut off by Saddam rather than U.S. bombs, and lack of access to medical supplies and hospitals, which were taken by Saddam's forces or occupied by his forces during the war, and the breakdown of UN aid missions to Iraq bringing in food and medicine because the Iraqi Army would have shot the UN aid workers or taken them hostage.

What's wrong? I win already? No one's offering a refuation? Doesn't surprise me when I deal in reality.

Funny how you single out other people for defamation of character when you yourself excel at this. Hasn't anyone ever told you that when you start personally name-calling someone, it only proves him right and you wrong. After that, it's all downhill.

Not really in this instance because I wasn’t presenting an argument so much as merely exposing my feelings about you the ultimate untermensch. I wasn’t making a point, and as you know imitation is the highest form of flattery, its comforting to see you using my arguments too bad in the wrong contexts.

Also, let me add that the U.S. military is the best in the world. Our technology is unparalleled. We take great pains to minimize civilian casualties. Most civilian casualties in Iraq are not thanks to American bombings, but rather to the cutting off of basic utilities, such as electricity and water, most of which were cut off by Saddam rather than U.S. bombs, and lack of access to medical supplies and hospitals, which were taken by Saddam's forces or occupied by his forces during the war, and the breakdown of UN aid missions to Iraq bringing in food and medicine because the Iraqi Army would have shot the UN aid workers or taken them hostage.

Quack,Quack,Quack, that’s how you sound like. Does anyone doubt that the US is the most advanced in the world? But what good does that do when you can’t even thwart a North Korean invasion today? Not much…so go on be exceptionalist it tickles me so oh you big troll.

Eng, that's just Undecided's standard technique, well known to the regulars here (just got through figuring it out myself). Don't take it personally. If you can cringe your way through the insults he puts up a pretty good discussion when he puts his mind to it. 8->

Understood Pangloss.

Undecided,

Answer me this question.

Which side do you want to win this war: the side of freedom, of liberalism, of secularism, or the side of religious fascism?

It's a simple question.

If the people of Iraq want a religious fascism, then it is their right to have one.

Funny how you single out other people for defamation of character when you yourself excel at this. Hasn't anyone ever told you that when you start personally name-calling someone, it only proves him right and you wrong. After that, it's all downhill.
Not neccessarily. If Einstein had called someone a troll because they didn't accept that the speed of light was constant for all observers regardless of their motion then the troll would still have been wrong.

Also, let me add that the U.S. military is the best in the world. Our technology is unparalleled.
I'm sure you're proud that you can murder more people than any other nation.

We take great pains to minimize civilian casualties.
<sarcasm>You're doing a great job. Only 10,000. That's not really much of a price to pay for thousands of gallons of oil is it? Especially considering that they're not even American and therefore of less value than the rest of the world, right?</sarcasm>

Most civilian casualties in Iraq are not thanks to American bombings, but rather to the cutting off of basic utilities, such as electricity and water, most of which were cut off by Saddam rather than U.S. bombs, and lack of access to medical supplies and hospitals, which were taken by Saddam's forces or occupied by his forces during the war, and the breakdown of UN aid missions to Iraq bringing in food and medicine because the Iraqi Army would have shot the UN aid workers or taken them hostage.
And none of those casualties were neccessary if the USA didn't go against the UN and international law and invade Iraq. Where is the conclusive proof of weapons of mass destruction? That was GWB's justification for going into Iraq in the first place wasn't it?
If you're going to claim now that the war was on humanitarian grounds, firstly, it wasn't. It was either about weapons of mass destruction or oil. Secondly, Abu Ghraib. Need I say more?
Thirdly, why pick Iraq? Why not any of the countless other human rights abuses around the world? And why start now? Why not invade China in 1989?

Which side do you want to win this war: the side of freedom, of liberalism, of secularism, or the side of religious fascism?

Intelligence and I am waiting for that to come about…about this war which is Iraq I would assume like Avatar said it is up to the Iraqi people to decide and they will vote for the Theocratic rulers, for you see democracy is not all its cracked up to be now is it? As for you EngGrez Pangloss at least is able to understand other positions and even agree’s with me and shows me a modicum of respect. If you didn’t act like a dick half the time I would have considered you at least worthy of time.

Excuse me for butting in...

Which side do you want to win this war: the side of freedom, of liberalism, of secularism, or the side of religious fascism?

Which side is which?

Is America supposed to be the free liberal one? If it is then you haven't tried booking a vacation in Cuba lately. I went two years ago, it was peachy! But then again my government makes no effort to curtail my freedom of movement ;) This the same liberal free country that arrests students whose personal homepages have links to sites that contain links to sites that criticize US foreign policy? Actually I take that back. They arrested the guy under the patriot act but the courts let him go because they felt he had no case to answer. This the same liberal country that routinely bugs members of Amnesty international and other none violent activist groups, holds prisoners in offshore detention facilities to avoid giving them constitutional rights and deny them access to due process of law? Not that due process would do them much good seeing as rates of criminal conviction are considerably higher for those forced to rely on public defenders rather than shelling out the cash the way OJ Simpson did. Ooh I could bash on like this for hours you know! I'm sure it's all in vain, I imagine you were really refering to Iraq when you talked about 'freedom' and 'liberalism' lets face it Iraq has no organised security force in place (the biggest Iraqi gripe in poll after poll) and much of the country is close to anarchy. You can't find a more liberal system than Anarchy now can you?

religious fascism

Well that could be either side!
What was it Rudy Guiliani said?
‘there was some divine guidance in the President being elected.’
Would you like me to throw you a few 'godly' quotes from old GW to back that up?
Ok then!
"I trust God speaks through me. Without that, I couldn’t do my job."
"I believe God has called us into action."
" God told me to strike at al Qaeda and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam"
'I feel like God wants me to run for President."
"God loves you, and I love you. And you can count on both of us"
"I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator"

Oops ignore that last one, That was Adolf Hitler, sorry.
So what side should we all be on again?
Dee Cee :)

Which side do you want to win this war: the side of freedom, of liberalism, of secularism, or the side of religious fascism?

Intelligence and I am waiting for that to come about…about this war which is Iraq I would assume like Avatar said it is up to the Iraqi people to decide and they will vote for the Theocratic rulers, for you see democracy is not all its cracked up to be now is it? As for you EngGrez Pangloss at least is able to understand other positions and even agree’s with me and shows me a modicum of respect. If you didn’t act like a dick half the time I would have considered you at least worthy of time.

Feel the need to answer the question any time. Who do you want to win? The West or Islamic fundamentalists? It's a simple choice. Why were you unable to make that choice and answer the question in your last post?

It's a very simple thing to do. All you have to do is type a few words: either "The West," or "The Islamic fundamentalists." One or the other.

Who do you want to win?

Why won't you answer?

He's been banned. There's a tagline under his username; if it says "Banned" then they can't reply.

Guess he lost his cool. I hope they let him back in soon.

It's a very simple thing to do. All you have to do is type a few words: either "The West," or "The Islamic fundamentalists." One or the other.
Who do you want to win?
You don't understand. Whether he wants either side win it must not matter, because it is for the people of Iraq to chose. In a democratic vote. And if a religious Islam state they want then such a state they must be allowed to have. Or you have forgotten what is democracy?

Feel the need to answer the question any time. Who do you want to win? The West or Islamic fundamentalists? It's a simple choice. Why were you unable to make that choice and answer the question in your last post?

It's a very simple thing to do. All you have to do is type a few words: either "The West," or "The Islamic fundamentalists." One or the other.

Who do you want to win?

Why won't you answer?

Why won't you answer any of my posts? Or other people who have strong arguments against your claims, such as Avatar or DeeCee?

Why won't you answer any of my posts? Or other people who have strong arguments against your claims, such as Avatar or DeeCee?

Usually someone else repeats something similar to what you said, so I just cover it in that post.

I'm sure you're proud that you can murder more people than any other nation.

Where in my post did I indicate or reflect proudness over having the best military?

You're doing a great job. Only 10,000. That's not really much of a price to pay for thousands of gallons of oil is it? Especially considering that they're not even American and therefore of less value than the rest of the world, right?

10000 is no where close to the 500,000 Saddam murdered.

And none of those casualties were neccessary if the USA didn't go against the UN and international law and invade Iraq.

And think about how many killing we prevented by toppling Saddam?

Where is the conclusive proof of weapons of mass destruction?

Where is the conclusive proof of Bush went to Iraq for oil that you so blantly scream?

That was GWB's justification for going into Iraq in the first place wasn't it?

Proof?

Secondly, Abu Ghraib. Need I say more?

Did you just forget about Saddam when you posted that?

Thirdly, why pick Iraq?

Saddam was evil, he killed over 500k of his own people, he was a threat to the world, he violated numerous UN resolutions. Need I say more?

Source? Referring to the education K-12 comment: Map & Graph: Education: Science aptitude - grade 12 (Top 15 Countries) (http://www.nationmaster.com/red/graph-T/edu_sci_app_gra_12&int=15)

How so? My personal opinion. I think that once the US entered WWI/II it over emphasized the importance of military and subsequently led the US down the path of a war monger - inevitable really. And ultimately didn’t change much anyway. The atrocities that the US supposedly is fighting against it then perpetrated against Koreans, Vietnamese and now Iraqis – these being perfect examples. Ever wonder why North Koreans are paranoid? Just think back to when the CIA set about assassinating as many innocent Korean Professors and physicians hoping that this would somehow lead to the overthrow of the State (instead look at what they have now).

Really there are just too many examples to list. It’s absolutely revolting.

Suffice to say I think these peoples destinies should be left to them including those people of WWI/II.

The fact that the US spends more money on it’s military then all nations combined is incredible and absurd. Yet, it fills many Americans with glee knowing it – not that it helped on 9/11. Anyway, think, with just a fraction of that money the US could feed the world and with a fraction more deliver basic medical supplies to the world.

I think leading by example and generosity works much better than by the barrel of a gun – don’t you?

Freedom fighters, eh? Seeing how they're fighting against freedom, I don't see how anyone could call them that. If you call occupation by the US military combined with the installation of a puppet government (per usual) freedom then I guess you’re right.

Let me ask you a few questions to see where the common ground lays:

(1) In the 1960s were the Vietnamese terrorists when they resisted against the French colonialists?

(2) In the 1960/70s were the Vietnamese terrorists when they resisted against the American army?

(3) Can you see ANY similarities at all b/w Vietnam and Iraq? ANY? What?

(4) If the Iraqi people will it, will you be happy if they vote in a government identical to the Taliban or Iran?

(5) Do you feel that killing 10000 (as you quote) innocent civilians is worth the “liberation” of Iraq - if they then vote in a Taliban style government?

(6) Do you think the US should maintain the trade embargo on Cuba? Why? What about China?

(7) Do you think a case could be made that GW Bush is a war criminal if he completely fabricated the WMD story (as is likely) to invade and occupy Iraq?

(8) Do you think that Iraq was more of a threat to the US security than North Korea (you know the one with the nukes)?

(9) Do you think that the Iranians should have the ability to make or buy nuclear weapons? What about the US? What about Israel?

(10) Do you think that oil had ANYTHING to do with the fact the GW Bush pushed the US invade Iraq?

(11) Can you NOW see why Germany and France (along with the rest of the world) did not support the Iraqi invasion?

(12) Now knowing that the Iraqis had no WMD do you still think that the US should have invaded Iraq?

(13) Regardless of its veracity, do you think that there’s something to the Presidential IQ Report (http://www.lovenstein.org/report/)?

147 Franklin D. Roosevelt (D)
132 Harry Truman (D)
122 Dwight D. Eisenhower (R)
174 John F. Kennedy (D)
126 Lyndon B. Johnson (D)
155 Richard M. Nixon (R)
121 Gerald Ford (R)
175 James E. Carter (D)
105 Ronald Reagan (R)
98 George H. W. Bush (R)
182 William J. Clinton (D)
91 George W. Bush (R)

He said richest country. He didn't say anything about us being the wealthiest per capita. And I said it doesn’t mean much. China is the second richest – does that mean the average Chinese lives about as good as the average US Citizen? I mean their only 2nd - Of course not.

This (http://www.co.larimer.co.us/compass/PerCapitaIncome_ec_ind.htm) site seems to think the average income in the United States is $31,632 as of 2003. That’s not that much. But, again, money isn’t the total yard stick. What you should wonder is why is it that Americans are one of the hardest working people on the planet, have no free medical, pay threw the nose to go to University, and only bring home just over 30k per year?

Australia's minimum wage: $11.35 per hour
United States' minimum wage: $5.15 per hour

I’m pretty sure it has since moved from $11.30 to $12.50 this year (or maybe soon will) and I thought that people over 26 get around $15. Certainly that's what all the older students around here get for part-time work.

Regardless, the exchange rate doesn’t work linearly: I’m happy to say AU is the highest: see Minimum Wage Rates in Other Countries (http://www.lowpay.gov.uk/lowpay/report3/013min.html).

1 USD (United States Dollar) = 1.39 AUD (Australia Dollars)

USD > AUD I can see math wasn’t a strong point. Using your ratio 1/1.39 it works out that $5.15USD is $7.16AUD, that’s about $4.20 less than $11.30! One could say in AU we make almost half again what you’d make in the US, as a minimum.

I see Kala you over looked the few questions regarding women and children? Are you a least bit bothered by little children killed?

Yeah maybe - but it's worth it to YOU right?

And you are American. So your values are the BEST ergo killing kids is OK - when America does it.

Because when America does it they do it for the BEST reasons. So its OK then huh?

We’ll even take your quote of 10,000 (just like the WTC were ONLY 3000 huh?) - it was worth it to you huh?

Who do you want to win? The West or Islamic fundamentalists?

Oh well...

Let me update my flash plugin and I'll Think about it. (http://www.ericblumrich.com/liberation.html) .

Oops thats kinda gory best be careful. Oh and be thankful that you have a choice as to how many corpses you see in a day.

Hey Eng what would you like for breakfast? Ground glass or Slugs?

Dee Cee

BTW I much prefer the music on Here! (http://www.ericblumrich.com/gta.html)

Eng Grez.

You anti-American reverse-psychology troll, quit bashing an innocent world power minding its own business. ;)


Alright, alright. Moving swiftly along to somewhere closer to the point.

Winning the war on terrorism? A first step would be to get Bush out of office and get Kerry in. I do not think Kerry is better for the job than Bush. However, at this point, only a change in leadership will afford even a remote chance of unfucking all the things America has fucked up.

Think about it. If Bush makes it again, then things won't have changed, except for an additional badge of dishonor to the Americans for having voted for the (popularly considered to be a) nitwit again. If Kerry makes it, then at least we have an excuse: Bush fucked things up, and now that we have a new leadership, please forget all the stuff we've fucked up and start over. I'm not saying our problems will vanish into thin air once Kerry gets in, but at least we'd be able to start with a cleaner slate.
(Note that I said 'cleaner', not 'clean'.)

Then what's next? The long-term plan would be to help the Arab countries actually have an economy that isn't dependent on oil. Help poor countries grow decent economies. You're less likely to go blow yourself up in a suicide bomb attempt when your family is well fed and you have a nicely paying job, perhaps happily married ... because you'll have a lot to lose when you do so.

Oh, and it might be a good idea to toss around some olive branches and political bribes by doing nice things like running high profile government-funded educational programs for things like "Let's Understand Islam Better", giving aid to poor Arab countries, give Israel slaps on the wrist when it's naughty (building a fence on land stolen from the Palestinians was naughty), et cetera.

Of course, we could always just destroy the entire human race with a nuclear world war and let Mother Nature start over with a less fucked up species. :D

To Eng Grez:
Where in my post did I indicate or reflect proudness over having the best military?
The general attitude displayed in your posts, coupled with: "Also, let me add that the U.S. military is the best in the world." (note 'the best') The implication is that you're proud of the US 'Defense' forces.

10000 is no where close to the 500,000 Saddam murdered. Does that make it right? 500 000 Saddam murdered is nowhere close to the 6 million + that Hitler murdered. Does that make it ok for Saddam? Of course not. And nor is it ok for the US to murder 10,000 civilians now (whether directly or indirectly).

And think about how many killing we prevented by toppling Saddam? From this I gather you are a supporter of capital punishment, correct?

Where is the conclusive proof of Bush went to Iraq for oil that you so blantly scream? There's no conclusive proof. That's the only rational explanation that I can see for going to war, greed. No evidence of WMDs, and as for the human rights excuse, well first of all the hype before the war was about WMDs, not human rights. The fact that human rights was not the reason for the war in Iraq is discussed further later in this post.

Proof? (Posted Re: Initial invasion of Iraq was because Saddam supposedly had WMDs)
Memory. Just before the USA invaded Iraq, they were jumping up and down screaming about how Saddam wasn't being honest with the UN weapons inspectors. That's what the war was initially about right? If you disagree, by all means post your theory.

Did you just forget about Saddam when you posted that? Of course not. I'm sure he was denied at least some basic human rights in whatever prison he's being kept in. And as I said before about the unjustified murder of 10,000 civilians by the US government: Just because someone else did worse doesn't mean that it's ok. The same applies for human rights abuses.



Saddam was evil, he killed over 500k of his own people, he was a threat to the world, he violated numerous UN resolutions. Need I say more?
He was evil. He did kill over 500,000 of his own people, he probably would have become a threat to the world if he had WMDs, and he did violate numerous UN resolutions.
I'm sure the US government has killed over 500,000 people, they are a threat to world peace, and they have violated the UN (UDHR1948 + whatever resolution/declaration they went against in invading Iraq), but yes, this does not make Saddam's evils right.
Now you posted that with reference to my question "Why pick Iraq?" If it's because Saddam killed over 500,000 of his own people (over a period of many years), why didn't the US invade earlier, say when Saddam gassed 5,000 Kurds in 1988?
Let's look at some other human rights abuses and the USA's response:
I've already mentioned the Holocaust, let's look at that first.
Before the start of WWII Hitler had already begun his Holocaust. Not only did the USA not protest, even in a letter or phone call, but they didn't even get involved in the war until Japan attacked Pearl Harbour. They didn't go into WWII because their allies couldn't handle it, they went in to retaliate against Japan and its allies.
What happened then? Oh, right. Hiroshima and Nagasaki. 103,000 civillians dead within four months, with 67,000 being in the first day. (Source:http://www.uic.com.au/nip29.htm)
Ok, a bit more recent: Why didn't they invade China in 1989? In case you don't know what happened in China in 1989, Tiananmen Square should ring a bell.
Some lists of the casualties were created from underground sources. Estimates of the number of civilians killed range up to 2,600 (Chinese Red Cross). Injuries are generally held to have numbered from 7,000 to 10,000.http://www.fact-index.com/t/ti/tiananmen_square_protests_of_1989.html
While again this is nowhere near the 500,000 killed by Saddam, this was the calculated slaughter of over 2,000 innocent students. What stopped the USA from invading China?

What about Vietnam? A country invaded Vietnam and used all sorts of chemical weapons that are still having an effect now. An estimated 500,000 have already died, with 650,000 suffering from an array of medical conditions. Why didn't the USA invade them because of their human rights abuses? Oh wait, that was the USA. And I'm sure it wasn't just the Vietnamese who were affected by TCCD (the toxin contained in Agent Orange), how many of the USA's soldiers were exposed to the same stuff? And why if the USA is so interested in correcting human rights (which I think I'm demonstrating quite well that they're not) have they not offered any compensation?
Source for info on Vietnam: http://www.guardian.co.uk/weekend/story/0,3605,923715,00.html

Why didn't the USA invade Panama between 1968 and 1989?
http://hrw.org/press/2002/04/panama0426.htm
Why doesn't the USA invade Sudan?
http://hrw.org/backgrounder/africa/sudan/2004/
What about Nigeria?
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/08/11/nigeri9227.htm
India?
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/07/29/india9156.htm
Azerbaijan?
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/08/04/azerba9177.htm
If you want more, look them up. They're only a google search away.

No, the USA didn't rape Iraq for humanitarian reasons or because Saddam was evil. Why then did they choose to invade Iraq? Mythical WMDs? No, there weren't any. So what I ask you is the only other option?



To Naomi:
Wow, good thinking. Americans should have generously benevolent international policies. I'm impressed because (a) You posted on what the topic is about and (b) You have a sensible suggestion for how the US can win the war on Terror.
The thing is, I don't think many US citizens would want their country to lose face by admitting that it fucked up.

And US citizens would want to lose face by continuing to rally behind Bush? :rolleyes:

And US citizens would want to lose face by continuing to rally behind Bush? :rolleyes:
Hehehe good point. A lot wouldn't see it as losing face though, just supporting their president (no matter how much he fucks things up).

What about oil? The US absolutely needs ME oil – not the other way around. The ME could get all it’s goodies from Asia, cut the US off and probably do just fine. Certainly the people don’t see much from the US anyway.

Actually this isn't true. ME oil is a small percentages of our oil imports. We could indeed increase our own production but I suspect that the game plan is to be the last man standing when the other worlds oil supplies run out.

Further we don't even need oil but the power of the oil industry will still control the change to alternative fuels and energy resources for some years to come.

At least until Hailburton figures out how to control these other resources. :D

Who do you want to win? The West or Islamic fundamentalists?

Oh well...

Let me update my flash plugin and I'll Think about it. (http://www.ericblumrich.com/liberation.html) .

Oops thats kinda gory best be careful. Oh and be thankful that you have a choice as to how many corpses you see in a day.

Hey Eng what would you like for breakfast? Ground glass or Slugs?

Dee Cee

BTW I much prefer the music on Here! (http://www.ericblumrich.com/gta.html)

You have yet to answer the question, Dee Cee.

(Yeah yeah cckieran, I'll get to it. I'm posting from elsewhere right now.)

Who do you want to win? The West or Islamic fundamentalists?

Neither, I think if one dominates, the other will only attack harder. Which means more war, more terrorist attacks, more innocents to add to the "Collaterel damage" list.

"Who do you want to win? The West or Islamic fundamentalists?"

It's not a game of checkers.

While neither of the two can win world domination, only one is gaining followers. Therefore, the West will inevitably move from "Bring it On" to "Hey!",to "DAMMIT!" and to "Never Mind".

I don't have cliches for the Islamist progression, but Iran has demonstrated the rapid rise and relaxation of revolution to be expected in this context. After the West's crooked and often vicious puppets are defenestrated, it isn't long before that funky world-culture beat comes blaring out the windows again.

Also, let me add that the U.S. military is the best in the world. Our technology is unparalleled. We take great pains to minimize civilian casualties. Most civilian casualties in Iraq are not thanks to American bombings, but rather to the cutting off of basic utilities, such as electricity and water, most of which were cut off by Saddam rather than U.S. bombs, and lack of access to medical supplies and hospitals, which were taken by Saddam's forces or occupied by his forces during the war, and the breakdown of UN aid missions to Iraq bringing in food and medicine because the Iraqi Army would have shot the UN aid workers or taken them hostage.

Surprisingly, Canada's first loss in the peacekeeping of Afghanistan was when a U.S. National Guard pilot bombed a Canadian Patrol, killing four of our soldiers. This seems to contradict your claim of "the best in the world", unless you mean the best at killing (allies included).

Yeah, it couldn't possibly mean that even the best screw up sometimes.

friendly fire is not exactly a measure of inferiority. I think what he means by the best is that the USA has the most powerful, advanced and most funded military in the world, considering that what the USA spend on its extremely overfunded military is almost equal to what the whole world spends on their militaries combined, most likely makes this not a inaccurate remark.

Actually this isn't true. ME oil is a small percentages of our oil imports. We could indeed increase our own production but I suspect that the game plan is to be the last man standing when the other worlds oil supplies run out.

The US can pump everything she has she will never be able to get rid of Middle Eastern oil dependence. The problem is that it is Middle Eastern oil determines the price of oil in the world. American oil production has actually been declining quite dramatically over the past 20 years. I heard that if ANWAR was drilled the effect on the oil price would be a penny.

Pangloss

Yeah, it couldn't possibly mean that even the best screw up sometimes.


It wasn’t a screw up it was reckless there is a difference; the pilot did not even wait for confirmation. The US military agreed with that assessment.

There is a simple way for the US to win the 'war' (sic) on terror: stop being terrorists.

Take a look at the history; it's that simple.

He who lives by the sword... etc., etc.

It wasn’t a screw up it was reckless there is a difference; the pilot did not even wait for confirmation. The US military agreed with that assessment.

I remember. The question is why anyone would take a singular example of failure and claim that it proves failure across the board.


considering that what the USA spend on its extremely overfunded military is almost equal to what the whole world spends on their militaries combined, most likely makes this not a inaccurate remark.


This isn't even remotely true, by the way. Why, it's only the top 25 or 30 GDP nations in the world combined! (grin) Pfft, some people, with their crazy exaggerations!!!!! ;-)

I remember. The question is why anyone would take a singular example of failure and claim that it proves failure across the board.


Well it is not proof of mass recklessness by the US military, Abu Gharib sure was. I don’t personally hold the US military with much esteem.

Pangloss,

The world spent about ~863 billion dollars on there militaries last year, the USA spend $399 billion, that’s 46% of the world budget. I don't see my statement as an exaggeration
http://www.cdi.org/budget/2004/world-military-spending.cfm

as for what you decribe of Undecided comment I think what your looking at is a Hasty Generalization fallacy.

Why didn't the USA invade Panama between 1968 and 1989?
http://hrw.org/press/2002/04/panama0426.htm
Why doesn't the USA invade Sudan?
http://hrw.org/backgrounder/africa/sudan/2004/
What about Nigeria?
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/08/11/nigeri9227.htm
India?
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/07/29/india9156.htm
Azerbaijan?
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/08/04/azerba9177.htm
If you want more, look them up. They're only a google search away.

As I remember, cckieran, we invaded Panama in 1990, was it? Or was it 1989. I can't remember. So there's your invasion.

As I also remember, the Arab League and such nations as Pakistan and China oppose sanctions for the Sudan and also oppose military intervention in Darfur. Their cooperation at the UN would be necessary to make such a venture successful.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3931411.stm

Why not invade Nigeria? I'll get on the phone to the President around 6 o'clock US EST.

Azerbaijan? As we all know, Russia would heavily oppose any kind of foreign intervention in a country so close to the running sore of Chechnya.

You also seem to think that the United States is here, at your beck and call. Your post is sadly amateurish in the extreme, cckieran.

The fact of the matter is that none of those countries save Panama were engaged in policies that had the sole intention of harming the United States and our allies, and we invaded Panama and ousted Manuel Noriega, if you remember your history, poor boys. Which, of course you don't, because you're a collection of ignorant little fools.

No, the USA didn't rape Iraq for humanitarian reasons or because Saddam was evil. Why then did they choose to invade Iraq? Mythical WMDs? No, there weren't any. So what I ask you is the only other option?

Who, exactly, the hell are you to delve into the minds of George Bush and Tony Blair and determine their reasons for war? Do you have ESP? Do you?

No, you don't. From day one the reasons for the Iraq war were clearly enumerated by the leaders of the coalition.

1. Iraq's history of animosity to the West and its expulsion of UN weapons inspectors in 1998 without those inspectors independently confirming that all of Iraq's WMD were destroyed and it's WMD programs ended.
2. Saddam Hussein's human rights record, which runs up into seven figures dead.

You are making a claim that you cannot back up, that being that Bush and Blair and the rest of the Coalition knew there were no WMDs, missiles over range, or WMD programs - wait, there were, we've found all three - and said there were. It has been made plain and clear that to Western intelligence agencies, including those of France, Britain, the United States, Germany, Israel, and the UN, which as you might recall, passed 1441 by a 15-0 margin, believed that Saddam Hussein was still manufacturing WMD - which apparently he wasn't - and was still involved in research into WMD - which he was (http://www.cia.gov/cia/public_affairs/speeches/2003/david_kay_10022003.html).

Ignorance. The biggest gun of the Idiot Brigade.

Fighting war on terror and fighting sun sets have a lot in common. Futility comes as #1 common thing.

One can eliminate PARTICULAR kind of terrorism by:

1) making mutually acceptable deals with moderate (towards USA side) terrorists and soon to be "freedom fighters". Letting moderate former terrorists to exterminate less moderate current terrorists.

2) complete or near complete genocide and assimilation.

USA has chosen to float somewhere in between #1 and #2. Let's not forget that USA have used/encouraged the use of terror itself. I am sure that the country whose slogan is "God bless America"="Deutschland Uber Alles", will use terror many times in the future to reach its real and imaginary goals. Hate hypocrisy.

Who do you want to win? The West or Islamic fundamentalists?

You have yet to answer the question, Dee Cee.

Neither.

Happy now?
Dee Cee

Reasons for war according to Eng

1. Iraq's history of animosity to the West and its expulsion of UN weapons inspectors in 1998 without those inspectors independently confirming that all of Iraq's WMD were destroyed and it's WMD programs ended.

1. Iraq's history of animosity to the West and its expulsion of UN weapons inspectors in 1998 without those inspectors independently confirming that all of Iraq's WMD were destroyed and it's WMD programs ended.
2. Saddam Hussein's human rights record, which runs up into seven figures dead.


What george said at the time.

"Right now, Iraq is expanding and improving facilities that were used for the production of biological weapons." United Nations Address
September 12, 2002


"Iraq has stockpiled biological and chemical weapons, and is rebuilding the facilities used to make more of those weapons."
Radio Address
October 5, 2002


"The Iraqi regime . . . possesses and produces chemical and biological weapons. It is seeking nuclear weapons."
We know that the regime has produced thousands of tons of chemical agents, including mustard gas, sarin nerve gas, VX nerve gas."

"We've also discovered through intelligence that Iraq has a growing fleet of manned and unmanned aerial vehicles that could be used to disperse chemical or biological weapons across broad areas. We're concerned that Iraq is exploring ways of using these UAVS for missions targeting the United States."

"The evidence indicates that Iraq is reconstituting its nuclear weapons program. Saddam Hussein has held numerous meetings with Iraqi nuclear scientists, a group he calls his "nuclear mujahideen" - his nuclear holy warriors. Satellite photographs reveal that Iraq is rebuilding facilities at sites that have been part of its nuclear program in the past. Iraq has attempted to purchase high-strength aluminum tubes and other equipment needed for gas centrifuges, which are used to enrich uranium for nuclear weapons."

Cincinnati, Ohio Speech
October 7, 2002


"Our intelligence officials estimate that Saddam Hussein had the materials to produce as much as 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX nerve agent."
State of the Union Address
January 28, 2003


"Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised."
Address to the Nation
March 17, 2003


The first reason you posted seems to be supported by the chimps ramblings but err... Where are the weapons?
I see no mention of your second 'reason'. Can you find me a pre-war GW quote to indicate otherwise? You did suggest that both reasons were 'clearly enumerated' sic remember.

As far as I knew we went to war looking for weapons that don't exist. Suffice to say we didn't find them. Nobody mentioned regime change, not in public at any rate.

It has been made plain and clear that to Western intelligence agencies, including those of France, Britain, the United States, Germany, Israel, and the UN, which as you might recall, passed 1441 by a 15-0 margin, believed that Saddam Hussein was still manufacturing WMD - which apparently he wasn't - and was still involved in research into WMD - which he was.

Thank you for acknowleging that the weapons that were supposed to exist didn't. Thats something at least.

BTW why have you got such a downer on Saddam?
If he was that bad the CIA would never have helped him into power or supplied him with a house in Bagdad so he and his mates could plot the best way to assasinate General Quassim. If he was an evil man the US would never have given him a list of 800 Iraqi communist party members (now all sadly departed :( ).
Saddam was ok! What was it that US Ambassador to Baghdad, April Glaspie told him a week before he Invaded Kuwait?

We have no opinion on your Arab - Arab conflicts, such as your dispute with Kuwait. Secretary (of State James) Baker has directed me to emphasize the instruction, first given to Iraq in the 1960's, that the Kuwait issue is not associated with America.

Seems clear enough.

If Saddam was a bad man we would never have put him in power, given him chemical and biological weapons and shown him the green light to invade kuwait.

Looks like your second reason is on dodgy ground.
Dee Cee

You missed the point of that. It was to show that the USA hasn't got Human rights set very highly on its adgenda.

As I remember, cckieran, we invaded Panama in 1990, was it? Or was it 1989. I can't remember. So there's your invasion.
Alright, I admend my question. Why didn't the USA invade Panama between 1968 and December 16 1989?
The invasion came as retaliation against the killing of a US marine, not for any human rights protection.

As I also remember, the Arab League and such nations as Pakistan and China oppose sanctions for the Sudan and also oppose military intervention in Darfur. Their cooperation at the UN would be necessary to make such a venture successful.
Why didn't the USA just invade without UN approval like it did with Iraq? They have no motivation to protect human rights in other countries.

[/QUOTE=Eng Grez]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3931411.stm[/QUOTE]
You can't see that this URL agrees with my argument?!? It's an example of the USA treading lightly around human rights abuses, wherein oil-plentiful Iraq they invaded.

Why not invade Nigeria? I'll get on the phone to