http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON


ECHELON

ECHELON is a name used to describe a highly secretive world-wide signals intelligence and analysis network run by the UKUSA Community (otherwise described as the "Anglo-Saxon alliance") that has been reported by a number of sources including, in 2001, a committee of the European Parliament (EP report[1]). According to some sources ECHELON can capture radio and satellite communications, telephone calls, faxes, e-mails and other data streams nearly anywhere in the world and includes computer automated analysis and sorting of intercepts [2]. The EP committee, however, concluded that "the analysis carried out in the report has revealed that the technical capabilities of the system are probably not nearly as extensive as some sections of the media had assumed" (EP report, p. 11).


Wow! I must say, I was ignorant of the fact that a surveillance system of such capabilities was even in existence, let alone that it was in the hands of the US and UK. On one hand, I'm impressed by the the technological achievements of Echelon. On the other hand, I think it's frightening that 'liberal democracies' would have such a powerful tool at their disposal. You'd expect that Soviet Russia or Communist China would use such tools, but it's the UK and the USA which are in possession of a tool with such enormous capabilities.

To be honest, the whole thing reminds me of Deus Ex. Can such extraordinary power be entrusted to those who only wish to line their own pockets, at the expense of others?

All of that has been going on for some 20 years or so ......and you didn't' even notice it, did you? But now that it's been reported by the media, you're just sooooo fuckin' scared, huh?

And if it hadn't been reported, would you still have been scared and worried? Or would you have just gone about your business without any problems?

Baron Max

Baron, I don't know what you're getting at. Would you rather be ignorant of how much control others have over you?

Are you satisfied with having the illusion of freedom, security and privacy? In my opinion, having the illusion of freeodm, security and privacy isn't good enough. I want the real thing.

There is an ECHELON facility 10 Km away from my house, here in Cyprus. Please feel free to come and blow it away, anytime.

tablariddim:

There is an ECHELON facility 10 Km away from my house, here in Cyprus. Please feel free to come and blow it away, anytime.

SHH! Don't you know that they are watching us? ;)

They certainly are and they know they are hated.

Baron, I don't know what you're getting at. Would you rather be ignorant of how much control others have over you?

But that's just the point!!! The same systems have been in effect for 20 years or so ....were you controlled then? Were you controlled yesterday before you discovered this wonderous new thing? What changed in your life from yesterday to today? And is worse today than yesterday? How so?

Are you satisfied with having the illusion of freedom, security and privacy? In my opinion, having the illusion of freeodm, security and privacy isn't good enough. I want the real thing.

Oh, c'mon, man, where have you been?? Freedom, security and privacy have ALWAYS, ALWAYS been an illusion! Shit, do you really think otherwise? I mean, think about it some, then tell me .....hasn't freedom, security and privacy always been an illusion????

Baron Max

They certainly are and they know they are hated.

And it makes little or no difference in your life, does it? If so, how and what differences? What would you do if "they" weren't watching and listening? Would you murder someone? Steal from someone? Fuck little girls? What differences would it really make in your life?

Baron Max

They watch, listen, assimilate and anticipate. This gives them powers to manipulate countries affairs even before the affairs become an issue.

The worst aspect of ECHELON for us, is that it is situated on prime land, it is an eyesore and is probably a health hazard, though it is impossible to prove because entry is restricted.

Baron Max:

But that's just the point!!! The same systems have been in effect for 20 years or so ....were you controlled then?

Wouldn't you say that such surveillance is a form of control? Wouldn't you say that the inability of individuals to protect themselves from unwanted surveillance is a form of powerlessness? If a husband watches the every move of his wife, wouldn't you say that he has some form of sick control over her?

The mere fact that the wife is unaware of the fact does not change the fact that in a sense, she does not have total freedom, and that there is great potential for her freedom to be further restricted.


Oh, c'mon, man, where have you been?? Freedom, security and privacy have ALWAYS, ALWAYS been an illusion! Shit, do you really think otherwise? I mean, think about it some, then tell me .....hasn't freedom, security and privacy always been an illusion????

You seem to miss the point, Baron. I agree that 'complete security, freedom and privacy' is an fool's dream. You're pretty much attacking a straw man. Even without something such as Echelon, you can't have 'complete' freedom. But I wasn't aware that the elite possessed such capabilities to intrude on one's personal life.

Can you understand that with such powerful technology now available, the 'elite' can now pry into our lives in ways which transcend merely being intrusive. That they can control us, while giving the illusion of freedom?

Do you trust the elite with such power, Baron? If you trust someone such as the Republicans with such power (you seem to be a Bush sympathizer), would you trust future governments which were not Republican? Would you trust the Soviets with such a tool? What about the Chinese?

On a related note, do you trust North Korea with nukes?

Wouldn't you say that such surveillance is a form of control?

No. The surveillance is only a tool, the control is USING that tool in order to get something or make one do something.

And again, I ask you, since you found out about the surveillance, what's changed in your life? How has it affected you life?

The mere fact that the wife is unaware of the fact does not change the fact that in a sense, she does not have total freedom, and that there is great potential for her freedom to be further restricted.

First, if she's a wife, then she doesn't have "total freedom" anyway ...if she's any kind of decent wife! But as long as the man does NOT use that surveillance against her, then she still has exactly, precisely, the same freedoms that she had before she found out about it.

But I wasn't aware that the elite possessed such capabilities to intrude on one's personal life.

Well, it's been going on for a long, long time. But now that you know, perhaps you won't be committing all those crimes that you've been committing previously, huh? Maybe your neighbors and society will now be safer and more secure, huh?

Can you understand that with such powerful technology now available, the 'elite' can now pry into our lives in ways which transcend merely being intrusive. That they can control us, while giving the illusion of freedom?

People have been controlling people and prying into their lives for a gazillion years or more ...what the fuck has changed? You're making this out to be some grand, wonderous, new thing ....it ain't!!! Back in the days of old, it wasn't any different, you just think that it was. And that "thinking" was your illusion of freedom. Nothing's changed ...not one lousy thing.

Do you trust the elite with such power, Baron?

It don't make one stinkin' bit of difference if I do or don't ..not one stinkin' bit of difference. Yet you seem to think that it would ...how so? Please explain in REAL terms rather than your "Brave New World" bullshit psycho-babble.

On a related note, do you trust North Korea with nukes?

No, but it, also, don't make one stinkin' bit of difference, does it? If so, please tell me how? Ya' mean, maybe, that if don't trust them, they'll drop their nuke program?????

Baron Max

Baron:


No. The surveillance is only a tool, the control is USING that tool in order to get something or make one do something.

1. I don't agree. The very fact that a group of people can observe my every action, without my consent, is a form of control. I have no say in the matter. You have no say in the matter. Aren't we supposed to live in a democracy?

2. How would you know if they are using this information to control you, either directly or indirectly? With the technological advances available, individuals can control you in a very indirect fashion. Merely because you don't think that you are a slave, does not mean that you aren't! You don't need to smash down someone's door and put a black bag over their head in order to manipulate them.

3. And even if the abuse of such power is not occuring at present, there is great potential for abuse. At one moment in time, this powerful surveillance technology may be used for the good of humankind. Yet what is to stop a future Stalin for using such technology to subjugate his country, or the entire world?
I'm of the personal opinion that while something such as Echelon could do some potential good in the world, it has a far greater potential for evil.


But now that you know, perhaps you won't be committing all those crimes that you've been committing previously, huh? Maybe your neighbors and society will now be safer and more secure, huh?

So you believe that terror should be used to keep the population docile and obedient? Careful Baron, you're treading a very careful line.

On the other hand, have you ever thought that having such knowledge will discourage people from exercising their right to free speech?


People have been controlling people and prying into their lives for a gazillion years or more ...what the fuck has changed?

For goodness sake, you've just missed the clue train, Baron. Try reading my posts in context before replying. I never denied that 'prying' doesn't occur. I'm merely claiming that 'prying' can occur on a scale which transcends anything humanity has ever known.

A good analogy are nuclear weapons. People have been killing each other for a gazillionaire years, with clubs, swords, muskets and revolvers. But now, with the inventions of nuclear weapons and hydrogen bombs, destruction can occur on a far greater scale, at the mere push of a button.

Can you understand that I'm not shocked at the mere fact that we don't have complete privacy (something I've known since I was two years old), but that as technology evolves, our privacy is being restricted in ways which are almost unimaginable. I'm talking about magnitude.


No, but it, also, don't make one stinkin' bit of difference, does it?

Why don't you like the idea of North Korea possessing nukes, Baron? What harm have they caused you?

Or could it be that you are concerned about what potential harm they could cause? Hmmm, now there's a thought...

1. I don't agree. The very fact that a group of people can observe my every action, without my consent, is a form of control. I have no say in the matter.

Do you have any say in the prices of goods at the stores? Isn't that a form of control? Isn't redlights at street intersections a form of control? Isn't the direction of the street a form of control? Isn't every single law or rule a form of control?

And, Hare, those things are REAL, something to actually worry about. Yet you seem to want to spend your time worried about things that ain't even happened yet?! Why?

C'mon, Hare, you're just being paranoid ..actually overly paranoid.

2. How would you know if they are using this information to control you, either directly or indirectly?

You probably don't know, but what does it change in your life? You act like the Storm Troopers are going to come swarming down on you in only a few minutes .....and all because you just found out about Echelon ...even tho' it's been used for some 20 years. Didn't bother you before, did it? Or did the Storm Troopers swarm down on you even back then??

And by the way, you really should stop committing all those crimes ...that ain't nice and it's even worse that ye're trying to hide it from us all!

3. And even if the abuse of such power is not occuring at present, there is great potential for abuse.

Well, when that occurs, we'll deal with it. Hare, there's "potential" in everything in life, but if you start being paranoid about it all, you'll end up in the looney bin.

I'm of the personal opinion that while something such as Echelon could do some potential good in the world, it has a far greater potential for evil.

Ye're entitled to your opinion. However, I'm entitled to disagree with that opinion.

So you believe that terror should be used to keep the population docile and obedient?

Huh? Terror? What terror? What the fuck are you ranting about?

On the other hand, have you ever thought that having such knowledge will discourage people from exercising their right to free speech?

You mean all those people who are so paranoid that they'll cringe in fear and never do or say anything? ...those peope??? And you want me to worry about people like that??

I'm merely claiming that 'prying' can occur on a scale which transcends anything humanity has ever known.

So can shitting in the middle of the floor with no one to clean it up! Everything and anything "has potential" ...but I don't think paranoia is the way to figure anything out, do you?

But now, with the inventions of nuclear weapons and hydrogen bombs, destruction can occur on a far greater scale, at the mere push of a button.

How long have nukes been in existence? And with that in mind, when was the last time the "button" was pushed?

...as technology evolves, our privacy is being restricted in ways which are almost unimaginable. I'm talking about magnitude.

Yeah, just think ....in the old days, before the invention of the airplane, it took weeks to get across the continent. But now we can make it in mere hours ....unimaginable in those days, wasn't it? Oh, the magnitude of it all, huh? We should have never permitted the airplanes to fly!

Why don't you like the idea of North Korea possessing nukes, Baron? What harm have they caused you? Or could it be that you are concerned about what potential harm they could cause? Hmmm, now there's a thought...

Nope, I ain't worried about that either. They'll either blow us all up or they won't ....my worrying about it, or getting upset about it, ain't gonna' make no fuckin' difference to Kim Jong Ill or whatever his fuckin' name is.

Paranoia is seldom a good thing. You should try to control it, Hare.

Baron Max

On the other hand, I think it's frightening that 'liberal democracies' would have such a powerful tool at their disposal. You'd expect that Soviet Russia or Communist China would use such tools, but it's the UK and the USA which are in possession of a tool with such enormous capabilities.

Wolves in sheeps' clothing..

- N

Most people think that spying is wrong for good reason.

Spying was illegal. Echelon was illegal. That did not stop them from setting up numerous, expensive, gigantic facilities. The first time there was a fuss of Echelon, in 1978 I think, they were ordered to stop. Yet they did not.

Besides spying, I don't like the idea of such a rogue military agency that does not follow the law.

Most people think that spying is wrong for good reason.

Well, I think you're wrong .....if for no other reason than "most people" can't think at all, much less with good reason.

Baron Max

The first time there was a fuss of Echelon, in 1978 I think, they were ordered to stop. Yet they did not.

Yep, it's been going on since about that time ....and tell me what horrors have been inflicted upon mankind during that time? Has life been unbearable? Have freedoms gotten less? Has the Storm Troopers invaded the land and ripped people from their homes to be executed? Has anyone been blackmailed into doing things for the horrible Storm Troopers who've run amok?

Baron Max

This spying may have already played a part in the arrest without trial of a few Americans.

But before getting into the "horrors", why are you OK with an illegal operation? It is a precedent for ignoring the constitution. There are military organizations who do not follow the law. This is not a good thing.

Baron, I don't know what you're getting at. Would you rather be ignorant of how much control others have over you?

Are you satisfied with having the illusion of freedom, security and privacy? In my opinion, having the illusion of freeodm, security and privacy isn't good enough. I want the real thing.

No one with common sense is ignorant about the fact that we all have bosses and that other people are x100000 more powerful than we are.

A lot of this stuff like Baron said is 20 years old, some of this stuff is older than 20 years old, nothing about it is new except to naive people. Good morning my naive friends.

This spying may have already played a part in the arrest without trial of a few Americans.

But before getting into the "horrors", why are you OK with an illegal operation? It is a precedent for ignoring the constitution. There are military organizations who do not follow the law. This is not a good thing.

What are you going to do about it? Nothing. So whats done is done.

Why don't you bother to correct the obvious flaws in your argument, instead of giving one that would suit a Nazi in WW2. What I individually do is of no consequence, and also isn't something you have any knowledge about.

What are you going to do about it? Nothing. So whats done is done.

By our government continuously doing things that are against the law and the will of the people, it just gives us more reason to not trust anything our government says.

I, for one, don't trust a damned thing they say anymore. I question just about every act they do, especially when there's something for them to gain.

Why don't you bother to correct the obvious flaws in your argument, instead of giving one that would suit a Nazi in WW2.

Apathy. They realize how powerless they are so they just give up. Real American of them. Sacrebleu!

- N

..., it just gives us more reason to not trust anything our government says.

Then don't trust 'em any more. What's the big deal?

I, for one, don't trust a damned thing they say anymore. I question just about every act they do, especially when there's something for them to gain.

Well, I'm sure that that really and truly upsets your government. But interestingly, what's any of that done help you? If you don't trust them, are you going to take up arms and explosives, and then go on a killing rampage through the countryside?

Apathy. They realize how powerless they are so they just give up. Real American of them.

Naw, we ain't givin' up ...we're just gonna' wait to see what you do and well it works before we take up arms and explosives, too. So you be sure to come back here and report how it all worked out for you, okay?

Baron Max

This spying may have already played a part in the arrest without trial of a few Americans.

And it may not have played a part. So there goes your argument ...or should I say, your sensationalist comment?

But before getting into the "horrors", why are you OK with an illegal operation? It is a precedent for ignoring the constitution.

I "hired" a representative and a senator to take care of that for me. They know much more about national and international politics than I do. So now I don't have to worry about the petty bullshit ....unlike some of y'all.

Baron Max

By our government continuously doing things that are against the law and the will of the people, it just gives us more reason to not trust anything our government says.

You are the government FOOL, just ask your dad.

I, for one, don't trust a damned thing they say anymore. I question just about every act they do, especially when there's something for them to gain.

Can't trust yourself anymore? Well look, you can't trust any system to begin with, and never should have put any faith in institutions. Put faith in individuals only, not in groups.

Apathy. They realize how powerless they are so they just give up. Real American of them. Sacrebleu!

The world is powerless, and you are correct, apathy is common, but what you need to understand is, most of us are concerned with our own survival, not with politics, government and other pointless bullshit. Yes it's important to have functioning government, but in the end, governments job is to protect the economy and wealth, and individuals really don't factor into it. So individuals really have little to no say, while corporations, and groups, have some say.

Most people adapt to reality, the leaders change reality to suit them, and yes some people are more powerful than others, but what you don't understand is that most people don't even know what power is or how it works, and the people who know, seek it. Personally, I don't seek power even if I can understand it, I don't want to be a leader, I'm not trying to get so involved in politics, because I'm concerned with survival, not the shape society is in. The shape society is in is due to the choices of our parents, not us, and we should not be expected as people in our twenties to have the responsibility to bring changes that people over 50 don't want. The world still works on seniority, and our elders want the world to be like it is, so the world is like it is.

It's easier to accept reality and survive in it, than to try and change it, and also you need to have permission to change it, you have to be elected, or selected, but you cannot just decide to change things on your own because you have to be authorized to do it by all the factions. So you have to ask the richest 1% for the ability to make changes, and those changes must be acceptable to the top 1%. You, as a member of the top 20% of college educated, or the top 10% or even top 5%, cannot make a decision without permission from the people higher than you, and it's always like this no matter what you are doing. It's like this in politics, it's like this in the corporate world, it's like this iin your family, no one is independent, everyone has a boss, including politicians who must listen to those who have power over them. Those who have power over the people who have power over politicians, they get their power from people who invent power for a living, so in the end, there really is nothing that any of us can do to change laws we dislike, it's not our job anyway. Our job is to survive. It's the job of leaders to make laws. I'm no leader. Neither are you. That's why we are on this forum discussing the world intead of being actively in it, at best we are students.

Neildo:

Apathy. They realize how powerless they are so they just give up. Real American of them. Sacrebleu!

These people are sheep.
Telling someone that there is nothing that they can do about an injustice is bad enough (defeatism at its best). However, daring to tell someone that they should not even feel offense or indignation over the unlawful and intrusive acts of elitists is sickening.

These sort of people let Hitler rise to power.

Timetraveler:

You are the government FOOL, just ask your dad.

LOL! Now who's being naive? The only fool here is you.

These sort of people let Hitler rise to power.

And everything probably would have been just fine for the Germans if we hadn't interfered and fucked up his glorious dreams for the German people!!!

Hare, you still haven't given me/us any good thoughts about what has changed in your life due to this "new" Echelon issue. I mean, it's been in existence now for 30 yrs ....what horrendous damage has been done???? Please, please, ....tell me ...and please do so without the sensationalist "but if" scenarios.

Now who's being naive? The only fool here is you.

Well, that was't a very nice thing to say, was it? And you're trying to get people to listen to you? ...and you call them names? Is that how you get people to listen? Hell, why not point guns and rifles at them as well?

Baron Max

I'm just curious, Baron, but have you suffered on too many blows to the head? Because apparently you are unable to observe your own hypocrisy. Inability to analyze ones own actions usually hints at damage to the frontal lobe.

I'm just curious, Baron, but have you suffered on too many blows to the head? Because apparently you are unable to observe your own hypocrisy. Inability to analyze ones own actions usually hints at damage to the frontal lobe.

'Added hominy' arguments are usually used by people who can't make any other decent, viable comments.

Your personal attacks are noted, Hare.

Baron Max

Baron Max:

'Added hominy' arguments are usually used by people who can't make any other decent, viable comments.

Your personal attacks are noted, Hare.


Hah, there's my comic relief for the day! It always funny to read the post of someone who:

1. Has no concept of what an ad hominem logic fallacy is.

2. Who is also the biggest hypocrite on this forum.

Remember this?


Are you being totally stupid intentionally?



Of course not, you idiot!



If you're so blind that you can't or won't see how it is in the real world, then there's nothing that i could do or say or link that would change your "dreamworld" mind.


Note that you flung the above insults at me, unprovoked. I merely asked for the statistics which you claimed existed to support your claims, and was labelled an 'idiot', 'blind' and 'stupid' (and that's merely on one thread)! And you're lecturing me due to my poor conduct?

I respectfully ask that you go stick your advice about proper forum etiquette up your ass. If I want a lesson in etiquette, I sure as hell won't come to an abusive PoS such as yourself.

Apathy. They realize how powerless they are so they just give up. Real American of them.

------

Naw, we ain't givin' up ...we're just gonna' wait to see what you do and well it works before we take up arms and explosives, too. So you be sure to come back here and report how it all worked out for you, okay?

What you responded with is an example of apathy. ;)

- N

What you responded with is an example of apathy.

And you are responding with ....what? Ranting on an Internet forum? Complaining to anonymous folks on the Internet? Demanding instant action ...from anonymous kids on an Internet discussion forum?

Baron Max

Baron Max, I love it Baron listening to these wimps and their quaking knee fear of things that go bump in the either of the elector magnetic night, only when they are aware of the noise do they do they have nightmares, and like the children they are, they fear the bogy men in the closet rather than the true nightmare of N.Korea, and world wide Islamo-Fascism, the fact is that there were program that collected information world wide before Echelon, and there will better programs after, and some where I remember reading that echelon was a refinement of a commercial data gathering program that tracked shopping and spending patterns of the worlds economy, and industrial spying is a far more prevalent danger to your everyday life than what Echelon will ever be.

All of that has been going on for some 20 years or so ......and you didn't' even notice it, did you? But now that it's been reported by the media, you're just sooooo fuckin' scared
This is total stupidity.
Yes he was behind on something that everybody knows.

What Baron is asserting is that one is better off not knowing the truth than knowing the truth. Red pill or blue pill. Live in happy ignorance, or know the truth.

lixluke:

Yes he was behind on something that everybody knows.

Not many Australians know about Echelon. I was asking around. I guess it's such old news, that newer generations aren't aware of it.

Most people don't know anything, including the name Echelon. Although most Americans vaguely believe in the spying ability of their government, most do not know anything about it.

I am quite confident that if you asked 1000 random Americans you would only get 10, at most, who have heard of Echelon. I would not be surprised if Baron Max never heard of it before this thread.

Either way, it is very far from common knowledge, and it changes things to know of something specific instead of having some vague feeling of potential spying, inspired by pop culture and phrases such as "big brother is watching".

I would not be surprised if Baron Max never heard of it before this thread.

I found out about it in 1962.

..., and it changes things to know of something specific instead of having some vague feeling ....

What did/does it change? Please explain actually changes, not just silly-assed feelings or something vague like that. What actual changes ocured when people found out about it?

Baron Max

It redefines perception.

You older generations probably heard about it more (though I would still bet there isn't any generation where many people recognize the name). There was barely a mention in the media when NZ and AU admitted it existed and the EU started taking precautions against it. Those two events were, I think, the only public mentions for us young people, and as I said, they were very obscure.

It redefines perception.

You older generations probably heard about it more (though I would still bet there isn't any generation where many people recognize the name). There was barely a mention in the media when NZ and AU admitted it existed and the EU started taking precautions against it. Those two events were, I think, the only public mentions for us young people, and as I said, they were very obscure.


I'm not old, I heard about it in the 90s. All of this stuff is all over the internet, if anyone wants to know they can use Google.

Have you heard of total information awareness? The Government bascially knows everything you do, and can even scan your brainwaves. So whats the point of your fear? The government has always been big and intrusive, the government has always been in everyones business all the time, and has always been tapping all the phones and monitoring what people watch on TV, buy, etc, and if government isnt doing it, corporations are, but the people at the top have been doing it longer than most of us have been alive.

Every record, document, action, purchase, anything you do can be tracked, you have a social security number and a birth certificate, the government knows exactly who you are, the government knows exactly what you are doing. There are satelites in space that can track your every move, there are radios that can pick up everything you say, there are sounds which can make you pass out and fuck up your thoughts, and all of this is documented on government websites, you can look at the new future weapons, you can look it up yourself.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/russia/steel-yard.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Frequency_Active_Auroral_Research_Program
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TEMPEST
http://www.haarp.net/
http://www.haarp.alaska.edu/

Let's be realistic here, if the government(s) wants to know what you are doing, they'll know, and theres nothing you, I, Baron, or anyone can do about it. So live with it.

It redefines perception.

Radio and tv did that, too, was that also such a big, scary, frightening, horrifying deal??

Baron Max

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON

ECHELON is a name used to describe a highly secretive world-wide signals intelligence and analysis network run by the UKUSA Community (otherwise described as the "Anglo-Saxon alliance") that has been reported by a number of sources including, in 2001, a committee of the European Parliament (EP report[1]). According to some sources ECHELON can capture radio and satellite communications, telephone calls, faxes, e-mails and other data streams nearly anywhere in the world and includes computer automated analysis and sorting of intercepts [2]. The EP committee, however, concluded that "the analysis carried out in the report has revealed that the technical capabilities of the system are probably not nearly as extensive as some sections of the media had assumed" (EP report, p. 11).



The EU report concludes (p. 11) "this means that the majority of communications cannot be intercepted by earth stations, but only by tapping cables and intercepting radio signals, something which — as the investigations carried out in connection with the report have shown — is possible only to a limited extent.

ECHELON, was a program put in place by the Jimmy Carter government, in 1978.

ECHELON, was a program put in place by the Jimmy Carter government, in 1978.

Yeah, and according to many here, there were horrendous, frightening changes in the world! ...LOL!

Baron Max

Yeah, and according to many here, there were horrendous, frightening changes in the world! ...LOL!

Baron MaxNot dead yet??

We are all born to die, Live Hard Die Free !it's the only real thing you can do in life.

We are all born to die, Live Hard Die Free !it's the only real thing you can do in life.That's right! It's better to burn out than fade away! (as Def Leppard said)

That's right! It's better to burn out than fade away! (as Def Leppard said)

Neil Young. ;)

- N

Well, have we all finally decided to go on out and enjoy our lives as before, without being so fearful that Big Brother is going to swoop down and scoop us up??? :)

Forty years of Echelon, and it's just now a big deal to people? :)

Baron Max

The EU report concludes (p. 11) "this means that the majority of communications cannot be intercepted by earth stations, but only by tapping cables and intercepting radio signals, something which — as the investigations carried out in connection with the report have shown — is possible only to a limited extent.

Those aren't limited to an extent.. we have it all covered. Heck, every overseas call is listened in on because we tapped the undersea cable, ironically by the U.S.S. Jimmy Carter submarine, heh. I'm curious as to what EU Report that article is referencing.

And yeah, I've known about Echelon since the late 80's, but everyone who knew or talked about it was just considered a conspiracy nut because that's not possible and the government would never do such a thing, lol.

Forty years of Echelon, and it's just now a big deal to people?

Only because a number of our ignorant masses have finally become aware of it thanks to the internet. I'd have to say that most people are still unaware of it, even as Bush and the media continue to talk about wiretaps -- they probably think we have to be bugged or something to be listened in on, lol.

- N

Neil Young. ;)

- N

At least Kurt Cobain had the decency to do it.
With a shotgun.
And a lot of heroin.

Does it irritate anyone else that Deus Ex is lacking Machina? As in Deus ex Machina, god is machine, where a god would be lowered by a crane in the final scene of a Greek drama to wrap up all the loose ends. It bugs me.

Neil Young. ;)

- NI recall a Def Leppard song that features the same words! On "Pyromania."

Kurt Cobain, was a wimp, fucking coward, he didn't have the balls to face life on it's terms, and if you really want to make a statement on Dieing do it Seppuku, make your will, Say your good By's, Read your Haiku, and then cut your belly Like a Man.

Kurt Cobain, was a wimp, fucking coward, he didn't have the balls to face life on it's terms, and if you really want to make a statement on Dieing do it Seppuku, make your will, Say your good By's, Read your Haiku, and then cut your belly Like a Man.I have to agree with you. His groveling, whiny voice, the self obsessed lyrics. He made "Sad" an artform. When millions have fought hard to stay alive and this punk decides to kill himself out of self pity it makes it difficult to have any empathy for him. People tried hard to equate Cobain's suicide to John Lennon's murder. BS.

I recall a Def Leppard song that features the same words! On "Pyromania."

You're correct.

Regardless, it was Neil Young who wrote, and first sang the lyrics.

...


Only because a number of our ignorant masses have finally become aware of it thanks to the internet.
...
- N

Aware of it? Or have knowledge of it to the extent that has been revealed? Sometimes even a little truth can be an opiate.

You're correct.

Regardless, it was Neil Young who wrote, and first sang the lyrics.And I'm OLD and didn't know that! Thanx:o

All of that has been going on for some 20 years or so ......and you didn't' even notice it, did you? But now that it's been reported by the media, you're just sooooo fuckin' scared, huh?

And if it hadn't been reported, would you still have been scared and worried? Or would you have just gone about your business without any problems?

Baron Max

Yeah, totaly, what a hypocrite, it's like she's not afraid of the sniper's scope untill someone tells her that she's in the crosshairs! Lawl . . . oh er wait. . .

Roman:

Does it irritate anyone else that Deus Ex is lacking Machina? As in Deus ex Machina, god is machine, where a god would be lowered by a crane in the final scene of a Greek drama to wrap up all the loose ends. It bugs me.

I've realized that some people here may not have played 'Deus Ex'.
If not, the implications of the title of this thread may be lost on you...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deus_Ex

Roman:

I've realized that some people here may not have played 'Deus Ex'.
If not, the implications of the title of this thread may be lost on you...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deus_Ex

LOL

Waaay funny.

mountain, I'm afraid that the implications are lost on you.
Roman is correct; the original source of the "deus ex machina" is indeed the Greek tragedy.

Deus Ex rules. Can't wait for BioShock.

Roman:

I've realized that some people here may not have played 'Deus Ex'.
If not, the implications of the title of this thread may be lost on you...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deus_Ex

From your link:

Name etymology
The game's title is derived from the Latin expression deus ex machina, literally meaning "god from the machine", i.e. "a person or event that provides a sudden, unexpected solution to a story" (referencing the practice in Greek drama of using a machine rig to lower an actor playing a deity down to a stage, quickly resolving a drama). Warren Spector, executive producer for Deus Ex, has stated the name was a dig at the typical video game plot, which tends to be laden with "deus ex machina" artifices and other poor script writing techniques.

Wow! I'm so glad you can learn stuff from videogames. But don't, not even a little bit, pretend that there's something novel about your game. It's a bloody old plot device– the producers just happened to have a sense of humor.

glaucon:

LOL

Waaay funny.

mountain, I'm afraid that the implications are lost on you.

The implications were not lost. I know what 'Deus Ex Machina' stands for.

I just wanted to make sure that everyone knew that I was originally making reference to the concepts espoused in the game Deus Ex. People may be confused, and wonder how methods used in Ancient Greek script writing is relevant to Echelon...