I realize this is one of the very premises of philosophy, but none the less, I'm curious to see what people have to say on the matter of empiricism, the belief that all knowledge comes from senses...

Ok, let me elaborate for those who are not familiar with the concept... The color red. Does it exist? First thought would most likely be "Yes, of course". But let's think about this... Red is how our eyes recognise light waves reflecting off an object with certain physical properties. Thus, if there were no eyes to perceive it, would the color red still exist? (If a tree falls in the forest and no one's there to hear it, does it make a sound?) Probably not, just the light waves we perceive as red (our soundwaves from the tree)... Now this is pretty simple stuff so far... But everything we have ever experienced relies completely on our senses... And since I just showed that sight is simply perception, interpretation, what's to say the rest of our senses aren't as well? Space between two objects is how our brain links the 2 objects. So that falls in to the depth perception of sight. Feeling, such as pain, is simply our nerve endings' recognition of contact, but the feeling itself does not exist. Taste, just the taste bud's interpretation of certain chemicals. Same for smell. Sound is our ear's way of making sense of the soundwaves hitting it...

Well now that I've shown that all senses may be deceiving us, I will get to my (borrowed from great philosophers from the past, Immanuel Kant, for one) major point. Look at an apple and you now know the color red, in itself, does not exist. Nor the taste of the apple, etc... Well then, can you say with any certainty that the apple exists? That anything exists? Is our entire reality based on our senses!? This could mean 2 things...

Plato's "The Cave" deals with this by stating our reality is not the true reality, but the shadow... Our senses are holding us back from experiencing reality in it's true form...

Descartes was more of a skeptic, and suggested the possibility that our senses were not hinting at an underlying reality, but completely deceiving us all together. The only thing we can't succesfully doubt is our consiousness... Cause something has to be doubting it... (I think therefore I am). Thus even your own body is nothing but an illusion.

I'm really interested in hearing others' opinions on this. Who would you side with, if either, Plato or Descartes? Or a new theory all together!? One subject that often comes up while on this subject is The Matrix, lol. Or perhaps you would like to correct me, I may be wrong in any or all of these statements.

ok

for a start anyone who has studied physics will tell you that a sound is a vibration of air particals

so YES it makes a sound

NO it doesnt make a nosie cause noise is how our ears interprete sound

and no i belive if our scenses are gone the world doesnt exist cause our interface is gone

for a start anyone who has studied physics will tell you that a sound is a vibration of air particals

And anyone who has studied philosophy will tell you that physics is how our mind interprets the relations between objects, forces, energies, etc... Thing is, everything physics studies could be an illusion. You have to look at the BIG picture to grasp the question. I'm not asking you to believe it, just entertain the possibility.

i belive if our scenses are gone the world doesnt exist cause our interface is gone

Ok, so what about just you, when you are dead. Will there still be a world for me to live in? Or what if the universe dissapeared first, could our senses and consiousness still exist without it?

depends

i am not sure about this

either the world is MY dream, in which case u dont even exist so no or its as is and yes

either the world is MY dream, in which case u dont even exist
Weirdest thing is I'm asking myself the same thing about you!

Realized an almost identical thread is already in progress so further posts should be done at
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10769
thanx

You will never prove this becuase the only way you can precieve anything is through senses

You have a berry. It looks like a berry. It feels like a berry. It smells like a berry. It tastes like a berry. All evedence points to it being a berry. You have no proof that it is not a berry. It must be a berry.

Your senses may be tricking you, but you will not sense a lack of senses with touch, taste, smell or sound.

Any statement that your senses can't prove is a belief.

OG!

OG? If that means "Oh God", I hope you don't look down on me or something, I already thought of your point, but was curious to see what other points would be made.

P.S. Welcome to Sciforums!

No. Og is one of many made up words that I enjoy using.
Others include:
Ubercool
Booyakka
Soaky
Toasty
I don't look down on anyone unless they're overly negative.

Its a phylosophy board. I expext to heard odd statements.

ah, I wonder if I should make up any of my own words...

Don't try to hard. Just blurt out random florts when you can think of what to say. Thats why most of mine a appositives and veriations on the word cool.

Or mabey its the concept of cool. :)

"florts"
lol, you got a knack for this I see!:D

Reality is purely subjective.

I hope I'm not some alien's pet computer project... :eek:

A quote you guys might like:

"No man can prove upon awakening that he is the man who he thinks went to bed the night before, or that anything that he recollects is anything other than a convincing dream." - R. Buckminster Fuller

If the alien is making modifications to my program, I hope he gives
me a bigger... errr, umm... wallet.

;)

There's a scientific theory, not just philosophical, that time does not exist... We are currently in a moment and all the memories we have are just a configuration of neurons in our head, unmoving.... You've been sitting at that computer reading this word for eternity, and forever will be... But the consiousness travels through all these different "freeze frames", creating an illusion of time... But the coolest idea of this theory, is what if this cell animation, of sorts, doesn't go in any order!? What if a second ago you were on your death bed, but now you're consiousness in the moment in which you are reading this post, thus you have no memory of the death bed "freeze frame". Just a theory... This could also mean that maybe consiousness is a singularity... In another "freeze frame", maybe I was you, and you were me...

that was something i was thinking as well

how the hell do i know what happened before now?

Or that it was technically "before"!:eek:

[QUOTE]
that time does not exist... "Time is an abstract concept devised by man in an attempt to bring order into a universe of choas"...

as a scientist, i have a empiricist's view of reality.

what is real are those phenomena that we can sense directly or indirectly.

within this structure we call reality, scientific hypotheses can be generated. These hypotheses must potentially be falsifiable to be considered scientific hypotheses. Scientific hypotheses have predictive value in confirming our view of reality.

I do not deny that there are things outside our perception, outside reality. However, as an empiricist, I deny that we can have any knowledge of these things, and have no more validity than me saying that there are pink elephants orbiting the earth that are undetectable.

It is beyond doubt, within our reality, that the color red or the noise of a tree falling, exist as phenomena (either in wavelength of emitted light or in sound waves). How our senses, and ultimately our brains, percieve these phenomena is irrelevant to their existence. It would be like asking, "If humans did not exist to percieve the earth, and the solar system, and the galaxy and the universe, would they exist?" This type of question is the ultimate arrogance.

In regards to time: time is merely change and humans use incremental periodicity (i.e. clocks, calenders, etc.) to measure this change. Humans no more invented time than we invented distance because we use rulers.

BTW, FYI the study of what we know and how we know it is termed epistemology.

[QUOTE]I do not deny that there are things outside our perception, outside reality. However, as an empiricist, I deny that we can have any knowledge of these things, and have no more validity than me saying that there are pink elephants orbiting the earth that are undetectable.

Why don't you think we can have knowledge of things outside our normal perception? Perhaps in deep meditation we can "visit" places, consider things normally outside our personal perception. Why would a perceived lack of knowledge diminish validity?

[QUOTE]In regards to time: time is merely change and humans use incremental periodicity (i.e. clocks, calenders, etc.) to measure this change. Humans no more invented time than we invented distance because we use rulers.

I totally agree...

i'm not sure i know what you mean. visit places, like in your mind as imagination or fantasy? you know fantasy is the antithesis of reality.

i don't mean 'normal' perception, i mean total, direct and indirect, perception.

I was thinking of astral meditation, so called astral travel. I have only recently started investigating the subject. It is well documented but empirical facts are very light on the ground. I don't think it can be classified as immagination or fantasy. What is your 1. personal 2. scientific point of view?

Point taken on perception...

Philosophy annoys me sometimes. It's an arena where a scientifically irrefutable proof can be reduced to nothing more than a possible illusion. There are no absolutes, and strangely enough, even though some define philosophy as the search for truth, there are no ultimate truths. There is much to learn from engaging in a critical analysis of fundamental beliefs or assumptions, and for that I love it. For that, it's valuable. I've always been a deeply philosophical person, but from all my thinking, pondering, reflecting, reading and musings I have come to see one thing very clearly. You need a cornerstone. You need a fundamental belief. You need to plant your feet on something solid. If there is an ultimate truth that I have found, it is that ultimate truths exist. To me, it is profoundly relevant that this belief was born in the realm of philosophy itself. It's ironic in a way that leads one to believe that the irony itself is like a clue, a strong suggestion that that is the whole point.

Something that would serve to demonstrate a small part of what I'm talking about is if you were to suggest that this could be all in my head. Or you could challenge the fundamental assumptions I'm using as my cornerstone. They are as follows. The universe is something that possesses the quality of being absolutely real. It is what it is, even if we think it's something else, and it would be here, being what it is, without any of us. I don't seriously question that anymore, although I might still entertain alternative possibilities just for pure fun of thinking about it. Another assumption I'm making is that I am capable of logical, coherent and intelligent thought lest I be speaking garbled bullshit that could only ever make what I call "sense" to me in my own chaotic mind. The idea is that at a certain point, it becomes counter-productive to persistently question certain things. It is useless to me to engage in a further critical analysis of whether or not the universe really exists, whether or not you are really reading this, whether or not I've always been me, whether or not I'm capable of intelligent thought - the list goes on forever. It's not that one shouldn't. The opposite is true. You need to. But, to me, there is really no point if you don't end up walking away with something real, and I've reached the point where I have, so I naturally roll my eyes and become slightly irritated when someone suggests that even that is in my head. You'll get nowhere thinking like that forever.

The big question is, why? Why do I think I've got it figured out? Where's my evidence? It's everywhere. Everything in the world suggests it. Order, shared experiences, other people asking the same questions, people in this thread, everything. Either the universe truly exists, as do people other than myself, or something, for some reason, is hell bent on trying to make me believe that. When you're young, you just accept reality for what it seems to be, because it seems to be what it seems to be. Obviously it's seeming to be that for a reason. As you get older, you start to wonder, question, seek to understand. If you're like me, you end up back at the beginning because you realize that reality really is what it seems to be, but rather than simply believing something because you don't yet have the capacity to consider alternative possibilities, you believe it because it makes the most sense. If you're me :) I've talked with a friend of mine about this on quite a number of occasions, and we both find it thoroughly amusing that the quest for truth leads you right back to your humble beginnings. The value in that is the age old cliche "It's the journey that counts". And it really is. You've expanded your perception of the world immeasurably.

That quest is never over however. I'll say that now in case anyone thinks I think I know it all. Something else I've learned, is that often the more you come to understand something, the more you realize that you really understand fark all. The world, the universe, everything, you can't hold it in your hand. You can't even get close to it. It's so incredible, so immense, so ultimately unfathomable, so frighteningly beautiful, even deeply mystical, we wouldn't be able to deal with it all. We can only experience parts of it. We might never be able to grasp the true nature of reality, but it's definitely here, and we are learning more about it everyday. Science one of the things that has taught us that there is much more to the universe than meets the eye, or ears, or any other sense with which we are equipped. Reality is more than what we understand it to be, but that does not mean there is any deception.

Politically correct disclaimer: All views expressed within this post are my own, since I posted them. That means there's a good chance that they are OPINIONS, or even semi incoherant rambling bullshit stemming from [insert addictive activity here] induced sleep depravation. In a perfect world you wouldn't have to worry about people getting pissed off because they misinterpret confidence in expressing an idea as arrogance. Either we're all allowed to have our own ideas and believe in them strongly, or everybody has to believe what you believe. When someone is confident, it doesn't neccessarily mean they think you're a fuknut if you adopt a different position. People are ALLOWED to be different :)

I fully agree with you Rav, but I'm still going to pick up that
Philosophy book to entertain the different possibilities out there
;)

i know nothing of astral meditation so I cannot comment, but without falsifiability it is one of those things about which we can know nothing.

Rav, I am with you. My cornerstone is the same as yours, or at least I think it is based on what you wrote. But I still ask the big questions like is this universe real and such, but I just ask the question... I realize odds are in favor of what you said and live my life accordingly, but there's a part of me that just has to keep asking those counter-productive questions, cause I may be wrong, and counter-production may be what I need. But I have yet to find any real reasons to question my reality or the universe to that much of an extent, but I still look for reasons to. I don't know if I made any sense in that post, but it is my opinion!

...I'm still going to pick up that
Philosophy book to entertain the different possibilities out there


Good on you :) I do the same. Whilst I believe certain things are absolute, it would be a grave mistake on my part not to consider other possibilities. In fact sometimes, in the middle of a conversation with a friend on one of those perfect nights, I can actually become convinced, in that moment where you find yourself at the end of a perfectly logical train of deep philosophical thought, that the truth might be something else entirely. Revelations like those, that make you go, "Get farked, no way! OMG! Far out! That's insane!" but yet seem completely possible if not probable are one of the things that bring a smile to my face and make this mysterious experience called life enjoyable.

To be fair, the beliefs I chose to express in my post were just the result of me coming at this from a particular angle. It was mostly in response to the people out there who seem to be off in some kind of illogical dream world where they don't seem to feel any obligation to accept the notion that anything is real at all. One is free to adopt that position of course, but often the people who do are difficult to have a meaningful conversation with because of the circular reasoning they use to support thier right to conclude that nothing is really true at all. Have you met anyone like that? They are frustrating! :) But perhaps the truth is simply that I remember how much I must have frustrated some of my friends when I was younger. I was always crapping on about this, or that. If it made sense in my head, it was true, and anyone who couldn't see it was an idiot. The irony was often I would change my mind and start carrying on about that, and everyone who didn't see it was still an idiot. Wow, the joys of being an arrogant little immature drug taking teenager.

I would become frustrated if people didn't understand something I was trying to say but I see now that it might have been because it was so "out there". That would probably frustrate them. I didn't mean to sound arrogant though, it's just that I used to have to know why someone disagreed with something that made perfect sense to me, so I used to push it sometimes. I actually genuinely apologized to one of my closest friends years later, and even one of my ex-girlfriends who I bumped into, for putting up with me. Thank god I had a couple of redeeming qualities (I hope!) because they were nice and said they didn't know what I was talking about. But the point here (and I'll finally get to it now) is that I hate to be reminded of what I was like, which is quite possibly where all the eye rolling comes from. But it's mostly a perceived reminder, not a case of me thinking the person in question must actually be an idiot.

I apologize if nobody wanted to hear all that. I guess I'm just in a talkative mood.

Rav, I am with you. My cornerstone is the same as yours, or at least I think it is based on what you wrote. But I still ask the big questions like is this universe real and such, but I just ask the question... I realize odds are in favor of what you said and live my life accordingly, but there's a part of me that just has to keep asking those counter-productive questions, cause I may be wrong, and counter-production may be what I need. But I have yet to find any real reasons to question my reality or the universe to that much of an extent, but I still look for reasons to. I don't know if I made any sense in that post, but it is my opinion!

"The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing. One cannot help but be in awe when he contemplates the mysteries of eternity, of life, of the marvelous structure of reality. It is enough if one tries merely to comprehend a little of this mystery every day. Never lose a holy curiosity." - Albert Einstein

You made perfect sense to me :) Feel free to question whatever you like, and if you want, do more than question it. I've realized in life that you shouldn't be too persistant in trying to change someones mind about anything unless what you're trying to give them is something that's really going to make a difference to what they get out of life. If you don't do it in the spirit of friendship, if it's not genuine, then leave it alone. It doesn't make you happy in the long if you're just setting out to prove that you're right. People will just say "So what?", and they'll have a point. Of course, in the company of people who like to challenge each other, and play devils advocate for the sake of stimulating discussion, then it's no holds barred. One thing I'm trying to say, in an albeit rather roundabout way is, "Fark what I think". It doesn't neccessarily do you any good to adopt a position just because it might make sense. You have to "own" your beliefs by reaching them in your own way, in your own time :)

I love the "Politically correct disclaimer". Your logic is a strong point Rav (maybe because of your chosen addictive activity, if indeed you have one).

Quote:
[ I'm curious to see what people have to say on the matter of empiricism, the belief that all knowledge comes from senses...]


If you were a brain without senses, what could you Know?
If you were senses without a brain, what could you Know?

Axonio,
Brilliant point.

....dude....you should work for Hallmark lol

Philosophy annoys me sometimes. It's an arena where a scientifically irrefutable proof can be reduced to nothing more than a possible illusion. There are no absolutes, and strangely enough, even though some define philosophy as the search for truth, there are no ultimate truths. There is much to learn from engaging in a critical analysis of fundamental beliefs or assumptions, and for that I love it. For that, it's valuable. I've always been a deeply philosophical person, but from all my thinking, pondering, reflecting, reading and musings I have come to see one thing very clearly. You need a cornerstone. You need a fundamental belief. You need to plant your feet on something solid. If there is an ultimate truth that I have found, it is that ultimate truths exist. To me, it is profoundly relevant that this belief was born in the realm of philosophy itself. It's ironic in a way that leads one to believe that the irony itself is like a clue, a strong suggestion that that is the whole point.

Something that would serve to demonstrate a small part of what I'm talking about is if you were to suggest that this could be all in my head. Or you could challenge the fundamental assumptions I'm using as my cornerstone. They are as follows. The universe is something that possesses the quality of being absolutely real. It is what it is, even if we think it's something else, and it would be here, being what it is, without any of us. I don't seriously question that anymore, although I might still entertain alternative possibilities just for pure fun of thinking about it. Another assumption I'm making is that I am capable of logical, coherent and intelligent thought lest I be speaking garbled bullshit that could only ever make what I call "sense" to me in my own chaotic mind. The idea is that at a certain point, it becomes counter-productive to persistently question certain things. It is useless to me to engage in a further critical analysis of whether or not the universe really exists, whether or not you are really reading this, whether or not I've always been me, whether or not I'm capable of intelligent thought - the list goes on forever. It's not that one shouldn't. The opposite is true. You need to. But, to me, there is really no point if you don't end up walking away with something real, and I've reached the point where I have, so I naturally roll my eyes and become slightly irritated when someone suggests that even that is in my head. You'll get nowhere thinking like that forever.

The big question is, why? Why do I think I've got it figured out? Where's my evidence? It's everywhere. Everything in the world suggests it. Order, shared experiences, other people asking the same questions, people in this thread, everything. Either the universe truly exists, as do people other than myself, or something, for some reason, is hell bent on trying to make me believe that. When you're young, you just accept reality for what it seems to be, because it seems to be what it seems to be. Obviously it's seeming to be that for a reason. As you get older, you start to wonder, question, seek to understand. If you're like me, you end up back at the beginning because you realize that reality really is what it seems to be, but rather than simply believing something because you don't yet have the capacity to consider alternative possibilities, you believe it because it makes the most sense. If you're me I've talked with a friend of mine about this on quite a number of occasions, and we both find it thoroughly amusing that the quest for truth leads you right back to your humble beginnings. The value in that is the age old cliche "It's the journey that counts". And it really is. You've expanded your perception of the world immeasurably.

That quest is never over however. I'll say that now in case anyone thinks I think I know it all. Something else I've learned, is that often the more you come to understand something, the more you realize that you really understand fark all. The world, the universe, everything, you can't hold it in your hand. You can't even get close to it. It's so incredible, so immense, so ultimately unfathomable, so frighteningly beautiful, even deeply mystical, we wouldn't be able to deal with it all. We can only experience parts of it. We might never be able to grasp the true nature of reality, but it's definitely here, and we are learning more about it everyday. Science one of the things that has taught us that there is much more to the universe than meets the eye, or ears, or any other sense with which we are equipped. Reality is more than what we understand it to be, but that does not mean there is any deception.

well said. I am now the way you were when you were a kid me and my friend talk about this all the time but he never seems to understand It make senece to me. I allways get this look like you think to much or just go along with shit the way it is but, damnt I want all the answers alas ill never have.