If and when God comes down on Judgement day, well, obviously I will beleive in him when I see him. Finally, heres proof of his existence.There he is.

Will I be allowed to go to heaven if I only beleive in him this late in the game, on judgement day?
Or is there a certain minimum time limit that you have to absolutely have faith in him to get a good seat?

Not according to my understanding of Abramic monotheism. Once you have proof of God, it's not faith, and without faith ... (fill in the blank).

The trick seems to be that once someone has genuine faith, they cannot be shaken from it. Not so much as you or I might have occasion to shake the tree, but God, who allegedly knows the hearts of humankind (and all other theological conundra arising therefrom notwithstanding) will know that faith when He sees it. Of the wisdom attributed to God, He will know the difference between fanaticism and faith.

That always throws me for a loop.
That once you have proof, you can't have faith.
You know what I haven't had in a while,......Big League Chew.

Until he comes. Even the nanosecond before his arrival "counts".

yeah that's what I thought about religion, it urges you to BELIEVE in something that you don't necessary KNOW is there, but you gotta have enough faith to keep your belief, and that's religion

no-two reasons

-1) salvation can come only come while in this life. If this weren't the case, then everyone from Nero to Pol Pot would be chillin in Heaven.

-2) I'm making an assumption here, but if someone were to be believe in God only at Judgement day, then its probable that they only believed that God existed, not in Him, the difference being acknowledging His existence, which even the demons do( James 2:19), and submitting and relying on Him. Although the second requires the first, God seeks to build a relationship with us, since He isn't just some cold, distant spirit out in somewhere.

jcarl,

And what of the many primitive natives throughout the centuries who never heard of Christianity and hence never had a chance to choose him or not?

And what of the many millions who died before Jesus is alleged to have arrived and of course never had a chance to ask for forgiveness.

And what of the primitive cavemen who were human like us yet had not developed the concept of gods?

Surely if the Christian God is just and fair then everyone would be judged based on their inner soul rather than any words or deeds they said or performed while alive.

But then if everyone is judged fairly on that basis and even those who had never heard of Jesus then the visit of Jesus and his death would be irrelevant, right?

Kat

jcarl,

And what of the many primitive natives throughout the centuries who never heard of Christianity and hence never had a chance to choose him or not?

And what of the many millions who died before Jesus is alleged to have arrived and of course never had a chance to ask for forgiveness.

And what of the primitive cavemen who were human like us yet had not developed the concept of gods?

Surely if the Christian God is just and fair then everyone would be judged based on their inner soul rather than any words or deeds they said or performed while alive.

But then if everyone is judged fairly on that basis and even those who had never heard of Jesus then the visit of Jesus and his death would be irrelevant, right?

Kat


I keep hearing this question being asked repeatedly on here..



God DOES NOT owe humankind any obligation whatsoever to "save" them from our own self-inflicted destruction.

So now, in this discussion, all those who never had the chance to accept your god are damned? In a previous discussion those who believed without proof were merely shown more grace. So how about those who believe and then are given proof of god?

God DOES NOT owe humankind any obligation whatsoever to "save" them from our own self-inflicted destruction.

If God made all humans and placed them in an environment where it's not possible for them to even know your religion exists then who's responsible? Who owes who an obligation?

So now, in this discussion, all those who never had the chance to accept your god are damned?

Depends on the religion. Christianity, most likely. Islam, not necessarily or, as I understand it, not likely. Hinduism doesn't work that way, but that's a rough understanding, and Buddhism doesn't worry about such things. Witchcraft largely doesn't ask the question--at the time I studied the Craft I simply left it with an every-deity-every-afterlife consideration; the afterlife was either an infantile notion or a deeper mystery. I chose the latter, so it became irrelevant.

The thing is that damnation and redemption are fairly ... primitive concepts, born of fear. For some religions, the state of grace seems to be something attained, and not awarded.

So now, in this discussion, all those who never had the chance to accept your god are damned? In a previous discussion those who believed without proof were merely shown more grace. So how about those who believe and then are given proof of god?



If God made all humans and placed them in an environment where it's not possible for them to even know your religion exists then who's responsible? Who owes who an obligation?


He gave you and I everything we need to be "successful" on this planet. That is why God is omniscient..

He gave you and I everything we need to be "successful" on this planet. That is why God is omniscient..

I'm not talking about me, I'm talking about the ancient Maya, or the pygmies in the rain forest. Or all the nameless monkey men that lived and died in obscurity before the rise of your religion. Or how about all those who follow after your religion is gone and forgotten? God, if he exists, put them there, in that place, at that time. Are they just supposed to know somehow that your god is THE god? If this is the case, they'd have to be omniscient, not god.

invert_nexus

Whatever happens to those people will be the will of God. I am sure His decision on them will be right. Anyway the people in here who have received the message of Jesus and rejected it will not have any excuse.


moementum7

From scripture events will occur before the coming of the Messiah. One of them will be a man known as the beast/ Anti-christ. He will claim to be God and require all men to worship Him and His image all those who refuse will be beheaded. So by the time the Messiah returns the vast majority of the worlds population will be worshiping who they think is God but who is not God. It is possible that a moment before the Messiahs return someone will believe in Him and be saved. But after no way.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

I'm not talking about me, I'm talking about the ancient Maya, or the pygmies in the rain forest. Or all the nameless monkey men that lived and died in obscurity before the rise of your religion. Or how about all those who follow after your religion is gone and forgotten? God, if he exists, put them there, in that place, at that time. Are they just supposed to know somehow that your god is THE god? If this is the case, they'd have to be omniscient, not god.


By you and me, I meant mankind. Each and every person.

Whatever happens to those people will be the will of God. I am sure His decision on them will be right.

The old will of god answer. I'm sure his decision will be the right one too. How could it not be if he decides what is right and wrong?

By you and me, I meant mankind. Each and every person.

So, before Abraham made his household god into the god of a nation and then to god of everybody, all those people who had no knowledge of any of this were in the know? They all knew that they should be circumsized? They all knew that they should preserve their bodies for judgement day? They all knew that god was a jealous god and would suffer no other gods besides him? They all knew all about all the various rules and regulations laid down by god (which most christians don't follow, btw). How did they know? Omniscience? Clairvoyance? Witchcraft?

I say they didn't know. I say that there are people on this earth today who don't know. I say there will be people in the future that won't know. If god gave them this knowledge what happened to it? Where did it go? How could it be anything like the bible since these cultures had absolutely nothing in common with the cultures in the bible?

This is why Islam is growing today. The culture represented by the bible is not the culture of the majority of the population of the world. In fact, it wasn't even the culture of the early Europeans, until they changed it to fit their culture. Unfortuately, it's now called heresy to attempt to bring the religion into a context that different cultures can accept. They just have to accept the western view or go to hell. Nice.

Whatever happens to those people will be the will of God. I am sure His decision on them will be right.

That's not even a real response.

Anyway the people in here who have received the message of Jesus and rejected it will not have any excuse.

From what I've read, your God just plain sucks.

That's my excuse.

God, I didn't worship you, 'cause you're an a** hole.

There are a few errors in thinking here. The emphasis on proof is flawed, because you are asking for physical proof - as if that's the only kind of proof their is. Do you think Christians believe in God without proof? We consider the testimony of the Spirit to be proof. We consider God's involvement in history and in our lives to be proof. Our lives themselves are proof. Faith is in things unseen, not things unknown. Visible proof decays like everything else, and what you are convinced of today, you'll have a hard time convincing your children tomorrow if they don't trust you.
Acts 17:31 "For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead."
As with any living being, knowledge does not come in an instant. Especially if you have rejected it most of your life. If you have lived according to God's principles all your life, it might take only a glimpse to recognize Him - and He might recognize you as an exile of faith. Noah wasn't a Jew, Jesus wasn't a Christian, Paul wasn't a Muslim. But rejection is something different.
James 5 Your wealth has rotted, and moths have eaten your clothes. Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days. Look! The wages you failed to pay the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord Almighty. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves in the day of slaughter.
Even certain knowledge or evidence of God cannot undo what you have done in your life. It sticks to you even in your faith, and until you have confessed your sins to the God who forgives them, you are sharing their fate.

Death seals your life like a contract. After that, nothing can be added or amended. But why wait that long?? There is only one solution: being dead already.

If and when God comes down on Judgement day, well, obviously I will beleive in him when I see him. Finally, heres proof of his existence.There he is.

Will I be allowed to go to heaven if I only beleive in him this late in the game, on judgement day?
Or is there a certain minimum time limit that you have to absolutely have faith in him to get a good seat?

You could accept Christ in your deathbed and go to heaven. If you deliberately waited until then to accept Him and didn't really mean it so you didnt have to pray, go to church, etc. I don't think it would happen. But otherwise there's no minimum.

Yours in Christ,

Kevin

jcarl,

And what of the many primitive natives throughout the centuries who never heard of Christianity and hence never had a chance to choose him or not?

And what of the many millions who died before Jesus is alleged to have arrived and of course never had a chance to ask for forgiveness.

And what of the primitive cavemen who were human like us yet had not developed the concept of gods?

Surely if the Christian God is just and fair then everyone would be judged based on their inner soul rather than any words or deeds they said or performed while alive.

But then if everyone is judged fairly on that basis and even those who had never heard of Jesus then the visit of Jesus and his death would be irrelevant, right?

Kat

They are judged based on what they did know of him. Remember that God is completely just and does not show favoritism. Furthermore, Jesus' death provided coverage to all sin, past, present and future, should we repent.

Yours in Christ,

Kevin

Hi Nexus :)


The old will of god answer. I'm sure his decision will be the right one too. How could it not be if he decides what is right and wrong?


I don't know if you where being serious or sarcastic with that reply but yes you are absolutely correct. The God of Abraham does decide what is right and what is wrong :)

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Originally Posted by Adstar
Whatever happens to those people will be the will of God. I am sure His decision on them will be right

That's not even a real response.


Anyway the people in here who have received the message of Jesus and rejected it will not have any excuse.


From what I've read, your God just plain sucks.

That's my excuse.

God, I didn't worship you, 'cause you're an a** hole.


Actually it was a very accurate reply :)

And He is not "my God" i do not own Him. He is the one and only God.

I am very confident that on the day you stand before Him you will not be saying anything like "God, I didn't worship you, 'cause you're an a** hole."

Be honest your reply was just an emotional knee jerk reaction to fear.

All praise They Ancient Of Days

jcarl,

And what of the many primitive natives throughout the centuries who never heard of Christianity and hence never had a chance to choose him or not?

And what of the many millions who died before Jesus is alleged to have arrived and of course never had a chance to ask for forgiveness.

And what of the primitive cavemen who were human like us yet had not developed the concept of gods?

Surely if the Christian God is just and fair then everyone would be judged based on their inner soul rather than any words or deeds they said or performed while alive.

But then if everyone is judged fairly on that basis and even those who had never heard of Jesus then the visit of Jesus and his death would be irrelevant, right?

Kat[/b]

Look at Job. He had no Scriptures to speak of, and certainly no direct consciousness(sp?) of Christ Himself. Yet he embraced what is known as the "general revelation" of God--that is, that God's moral law is written on his heart and that all Creation cries for a Creator.(As Voltaire said,"...but nature cries out that he does exist). Job recognized that he was a sinner in need of redemption.(Job 19:25) Because of that He had faith that that Redeemer would come. Thus, his faith in God was shown in the life he lived(Rom 2:7).

Now this whole thing is the hypothetical. If people in pre-Christ times acknowledged that general revelation and ran with it, then they would be saved. Here's the thing though, not many did. Rom. 2:8 indicates that people rejected this truth and instead went there own way, creating their own gods--themselves. People like Job and Melchizedek were rare, but it shows that it was possible. If someone were to stand before God with the excuse,"God, if you'd sent somebody to tell me, then I would've believed," I think God would point to guys like Job and say," this guy had as much evidence as you, but he accepted it, and you didn't."

Does that clear the water?

I think everyone will be judged based on how they lived there life. I dont think that an all good and graciouse god would send a good person to hell just for not beliveing in him, it doesnt make much since. Any other way could be considered favortisim and what kind of god has favorites.

Christians do not say that anyone is actually not saved because we don't know the will of God. As far as we know, no one but Lucifer has ever gone to Hell and although there are certain criteria for attainment of grace, we are not supposed to be of the opinion that we know absolutely that someone is damned.

Jesus, by showing proof to Thomas, showed that he was willing to accept someone's faith based on evidence rather than blind belief. Many people, myself included, feel as though they've been given proof once we asked for it. The verse "Ask and ye shall receive, seek and ye shall find, knock and the door shall be opened to you" is essentially permission to ask God to show you the way. For many of us this means asking for signs or some other sort of proof.

Jesus, between His crucufixion and Resurrection, descended into Hell for three days to rescue all of the souls that did not belong there because they had been born after we had closed ourselves off from God but before Jesus had come to restore us to God. That includes the Maya, the ancient pagans and everyone else. It became Christians' job to get the Good News out to every nation and we will be judged more harshly for having failed than others will be who never had the chance to learn about Jesus. One can be forgiven ignorance, but one is less likely to be forgiven willfulness.

Be honest your reply was just an emotional knee jerk reaction to fear.

Fear? Of what?

An invisible man?


God is like a bad joke that won't go away.
It has no substance and is unwanted by anyone with half a brain.

If and when God comes down on Judgement day, well, obviously I will beleive in him when I see him. Finally, heres proof of his existence.There he is.

Will I be allowed to go to heaven if I only beleive in him this late in the game, on judgement day?
Or is there a certain minimum time limit that you have to absolutely have faith in him to get a good seat?It wouldn't be true belief. We believe in something we don't know. God is unknown. Otherwize we would know that He existed and we wouldn't have any way of achieving true belief (that I know of anyway).

The only way that I heard of, to come to heaven without belief, is through the law...and it's very very hard. I've heard that the Jews wanted a way to become righteous through lawful deeds (the ten commandments - sorry for eventual misspelling). Though because of our failure to do so, God has showed His mercy by allowing us to become righteous through His son by simply believing in Him. Though God hasn't broken His promise with the Jews, all people can come to heaven regardless of deeds, through Gods son Jesus. This also go along with Abraham that was said to be righteous because of his belief.

As I'm writing this from memory, if there are any faults please point them out - I know that what I meant with the examples aren't wrong, but if there are any factual errors then I can explain what I mean and maybe use another example.

Cyperium


The only way that I heard of, to come to heaven without belief, is through the law...and it's very very hard. I've heard that the Jews wanted a way to become righteous through lawful deeds (the ten commandments - sorry for eventual misspelling). Though because of our failure to do so, God has showed His mercy by allowing us to become righteous through His son by simply believing in Him. Though God hasn't broken His promise with the Jews, all people can come to heaven regardless of deeds, through Gods son Jesus. This also go along with Abraham that was said to be righteous because of his belief.

As I'm writing this from memory, if there are any faults please point them out - I know that what I meant with the examples aren't wrong, but if there are any factual errors then I can explain what I mean and maybe use another example.


Pretty close to the mark Cyperium. I agree with nearly every thing you said here. I'm not so sure that people can attempt to follow the law without believing that God exists though. Maybe you meant without belief in Jesus?

All Praise The Ancient of Days

Actually it was a very accurate reply

And He is not "my God" i do not own Him. He is the one and only God.

It's the easy way out. It's saying, "I don't have to answer because I'm right, my god is right, and you're wrong." It may be honest, but it's cheap. And outlines the inherent flaws of religion.

And it is your god. There are other gods out there too, you know. You discount them because they're not your god. But others discount your god for the same reason.

There is not other God but the God who revealed himself to Abraham. and there are no other Gods

This is also true.

All praise The Ancient Of Days

Prove it, guy.

I don't have to :)

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Then your belief is irrational.

Cyperium



Pretty close to the mark Cyperium. I agree with nearly every thing you said here. I'm not so sure that people can attempt to follow the law without believing that God exists though. Maybe you meant without belief in Jesus?

All Praise The Ancient of DaysAs the law was written in our hearts it should be possible to follow the law without knowing about God. But I guess there is some kind of feeling that God exists. Love everybody as you love yourself, is the fulfillment of the law and I think that if we follow that law completly we would gain a good understanding of God, whether we knew about His existance or not, then we might realize that it was God that we felt all along. I think it is possible... I've followed some rules as a child which I later found in the Bible (I didn't read the Bible as a child, though my father is christian and I could have been influenced by his morals and rules - though this still shows that it is possible).

But belief will sooner or later be important.

I don't have to

Because you can't. So, I guess it's a fortuitous circumstance that you don't have to. ;)

There is not other God but the God who revealed himself to Abraham.

Wasn't Abrahams god his personal household god? I got the feeling when reading the bible once that his god was like a totem that he carried around with him. I can't recall the exact verse that led me to believe this. But, in this verse he seemed no different than the gods that his neighbors packed around in their tents as well.

[QUOTE=Adstar]There is not other God but the God who revealed himself to Abraham. and there are no other Gods[QUOTE]
*************
M*W: Excerpted from:

www.religious-studies.info/History_of_God.htm

“Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel: Long ago your ancestors-Terah and his sons Abraham and Nahor... served other gods.” (Joshua 24:2 NRSV) For the first seventy-five years of his life Abraham “served other gods”: Sumerian gods. Then, God called him out of his family. “Now the LORD had said to Abram, Get yourself out of your country, and from your kindred, and from your father’s house, to a land that I will show you. ... and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.” (Genesis 12:1 KJV)

"Abraham is the father of the Jews. He started the religion of Judaism. Adam and Noah were not Jews. For this reason, in the Old Testament God is never called “the God of Adam” or “the God of Noah.” The expressions “God of my ancestors” and “God of your ancestors” appear often in the Old Testament. The word “ancestors” refers to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Never did Abraham refer to God as “the god of my ancestors.” According to the genealogies of Genesis, Noah, the ancestor of Abraham, was alive when Abraham was 60 years old. At that time Abraham worshipped Sumerian gods. He learned about those gods from his parents, who were taught by their Sumerian parents, who ultimately were taught by Noah (the myth of Noah originated in Sumer). While Noah was alive Abraham “served other gods,” the gods of his ancestor Noah. Fifteen years after Noah’s death, when Abraham was 75 years old, God called Abraham out of his family and out of the “other gods.”

"Abraham was born in Sumer. He came from Ur, a city in Sumer west of the Euphrates river. He and his father were Gentiles. They worshipped Sumerian gods:Who was “the God of Abraham?” In the English versions of the Old Testament, the word “God,” in 213 instances, is the translation of the Hebrew word “El.” It is Strong’s word #410. In the Hebrew version of the book of Job, God is called “El” fifty-six times. “God {Heb. El} thunders marvelously with his voice.” (Job 37:5 KJV) El was the name of the god of Abraham. It was God’s original name. In the following verse Jacob (also known as Israel) built an altar to the god El: “There he erected an altar and called it El-Elohe-Israel {El, god of Israel}.” (Genesis 33:20 RSV) The phrase “El, god of Israel” makes it clear that the proper name of the god of Jacob was El. He was the god of Israel. Here is another verse, which shows that “El” was the proper name of God: “They fell on their faces, and said, ‘O God {Heb. El}, the God {Heb. Elohim} of the spirits of all flesh, shall one person sin and you become angry with the whole congregation?’” (Numbers 16:22 NRSV)

Abraham was also the father of Islam whose god was not the "El-oh" but "Al-lah." One and the same God. In fact, "God" is an English word taken from the German word "gut" which evolved into the word "good."

How long do you have to believe in God?
Who cares? What, scared of going to hell? Overjoyed at the prospect of entering heaven?
What is life? A test? maybe, but a test to see how many souls can be crammed into the flames or the clouds?
I mean how boring is that? Oh, oh, how hot it is down here! what and I've got a pitch fork in my leg!
Or,
ooooooh, isn't it lovely floating round with the good folk and look there's the big man HIMself!
And that is the key. Who ever said God was a man? God is neither, god is IT.
With FAITH you will get so far, but to KNOW, that is when you can get what you want from life.

Get real, the life is here, have it now.

As the law was written in our hearts it should be possible to follow the law without knowing about God. But I guess there is some kind of feeling that God exists. Love everybody as you love yourself, is the fulfillment of the law and I think that if we follow that law completly we would gain a good understanding of God, whether we knew about His existance or not, then we might realize that it was God that we felt all along. I think it is possible... I've followed some rules as a child which I later found in the Bible (I didn't read the Bible as a child, though my father is christian and I could have been influenced by his morals and rules - though this still shows that it is possible).

But belief will sooner or later be important.

Good reply Cyperium :) you are right. I stand corrected It is written into our hearts ;)

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

1 Corinthians 8

1 Now concerning things offered to idols: We know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies. 2And if anyone thinks that he knows anything, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know. 3But if anyone loves God, this one is known by Him.
4Therefore concerning the eating of things offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God but one. 5For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), 6yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days