How does one address a Pharisee?



In a thread, a poster said:

Could you at least find it in your loving, forgiving christian heart to answer the questions?


How does one address such requests?
Usually, such people have become their questions answered, they just don't like the answers, so they go on with statements as above.

What does one do to speak to such people?

It's a wonderful post with just one slight problem:

Lack of detail.

Unfortunately you haven't provided any details with which the quoted sentence can be taken in accurate context. You have failed to mention that the 'defendee' did a runner before actually answering the questions, which is quite frankly rude.

I hate to be the one to have to give you christians lessons in how to be christian, in how to listen to what jesus actually said - but it seems thus far you're all making it up as you go along, happy to preach when it suits you, but constantly doing the opposite the rest of the time.

Now, you say that 'usually' it's just down to people not liking the answers. While that might be true in certain circumstances, you and I both know that is not the case in this matter. As such your post is misleading and dishonest.

How does one address a Pharisee?



In a thread, a poster said:




How does one address such requests?
Usually, such people have become their questions answered, they just don't like the answers, so they go on with statements as above.

What does one do to speak to such people?

Hi Rosa,

You cannot argue with these brood of vipers. Best to ignore them :)

peace

c20 :m:

if you dont like the heat c20, get out of the kitchen.
there are several posts left unanswered by you, and the ones you do answer, you answer with an obscure story.
and now I understand you think you the lord god, according to what I've read.
incidently we have to answer a Pharisee, all the time, there are numerous religious fundis on this forum, so it's a constant battle.

You cannot argue with these brood of vipers. Best to ignore them

Take the plank out of your own eye before trying to remove the speck of dust in mine.

c20H25N3o: You cannot argue with these brood of vipers. Best to ignore them :)
*************
M*W: Wait a minute! This brood of vipers are the ones who believe in the resurrection! It's the Saducees who don't. Can you explain your comment?

I think that you're also using the term Pharisee incorrectly. A Pharisee is not someone who makes fun of or challenges a christian....a Pharisee is a person who subsitutes organized religion for a personal relationship with God through Christ...someone who substitutes religious dogma for being born again through the spirit. A Pharisee "goes to church", but "is not the church". A Pharisee takes the lord's name in vain and witnesses falsely of him.

I think it is apt:
Matthew 23:13
"... Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to."

I hate to be the one to have to give you christians lessons in how to be christian, in how to listen to what jesus actually said - but it seems thus far you're all making it up as you go along, happy to preach when it suits you, but constantly doing the opposite the rest of the time.
Take the plank out of your own eye before trying to remove the speck of dust in mine.

c20H25N3o: You cannot argue with these brood of vipers. Best to ignore them :)
*************
M*W: Wait a minute! This brood of vipers are the ones who believe in the resurrection! It's the Saducees who don't. Can you explain your comment?

Jenyar may say "I have already done it"

Thank you Jenyar :)

It's a wonderful post with just one slight problem:

Lack of detail.

Unfortunately you haven't provided any details with which the quoted sentence can be taken in accurate context. You have failed to mention that the 'defendee' did a runner before actually answering the questions, which is quite frankly rude.

I hate to be the one to have to give you christians lessons in how to be christian, in how to listen to what jesus actually said - but it seems thus far you're all making it up as you go along, happy to preach when it suits you, but constantly doing the opposite the rest of the time.

Now, you say that 'usually' it's just down to people not liking the answers. While that might be true in certain circumstances, you and I both know that is not the case in this matter. As such your post is misleading and dishonest.

Could you at least find it in your rational, logical, scientific mind to understand that this whole issue is about emotions and attitude?!


Saying

“ Could you at least find it in your loving, forgiving christian heart to answer the questions? ”

is emotional blackmail.

How would you feel if your daughter wanted something that you think she shouldn't have, and she'd say, "Daddy, if you don't buy me this toy, then I will think that you hate me! You don't love me!!" -- hm?
Would you think she is right?
Would you, just because you love her, indulge her and buy whatever she wanted, so that she couldn't claim you don't love her?
So that you would turn out to be loving in accordance with what she considers loving?


* * *


The main problem in religious discussions is that they are loaded with emotions, and often emotional blackmail takes place.

So the issue is a very practical one: How to argue against someone who is making an emotional argument?


This

“ Could you at least find it in your loving, forgiving christian heart to answer the questions? ”

certainly is an emotional way of arguing -- calling upon the opponent's "loving, forgiving christian heart".
It is no different from a child saying "If you don't buy me that toy, then you don't love me!"


So, what does one do? How does one approach emotional blackmail in religious discussions?

You shouldn't just sit there, helplessly.
You also shouldn't do something just for the sake of proving that the opponent's opinion about you is true.
You shouldn't just try to live up to the opponent's estimation of you, even though it is an estimation you yourself wish to be true.


I'm sure there is a way!
Share your suggestions, experiences!

Could you at least find it in your rational, logical, scientific mind to understand that this whole issue is about emotions and attitude?!

I will certainly try, but there's no guarantee that I will agree.

Saying

“ Could you at least find it in your loving, forgiving christian heart to answer the questions? ”

is emotional blackmail.

Well, to some perhaps - but the reminder was important as far as I could see. When someone constantly claims one thing, but then does the opposite, I am in the position to correct them. All I hear day in-day out is that christians are loving and forgiving, and on this forum alone I have seen pretty much every single christian state that 'love and forgiveness' are a key part of christianity, indeed making christianity what it is. Now, if someone fails in their god-demanded duty, do I not have the right to inform them of that?

Does this in turn leave them in a position to cry and moan that they don't like the rules god has set?

Furthermore, I feel this post isn't worth the kilobytes its using. Technically I could follow suit and now make a post claiming that "Could you at least find it in your rational, logical, scientific mind to understand that this whole issue is about emotions and attitude?!", is emotional blackmail - when to be quite frank it doesn't even raise an eyebrow. I mean honestly, what's the big deal?

This is the problem with you lot though. You say one thing and do the opposite. C20 will sit there and say "don't judge others lest ye be judged yourself", or similar such tripe - and then 5 minutes later calls us all a "brood of vipers", which is a judgement.

Don't forget Rose, I didn't make the rules. But if people cannot follow them, I don't see why I shouldn't point that out.

C20 has done 741 posts of preaching jesus and gods rules to the rest of us, and then cannot even show the decency to abide by those rules he has spent the last 741 posts preaching.

It makes all of those posts completely null and void, because he constantly preaches something and then constantly goes against that which he preaches.

It's like someone who spends his life beating dogs to death preaching about how bad animal cruelty is.

How would you feel if your daughter wanted something that you think she shouldn't have, and she'd say, "Daddy, if you don't buy me this toy, then I will think that you hate me! You don't love me!!" -- hm?
Would you think she is right?
Would you, just because you love her, indulge her and buy whatever she wanted, so that she couldn't claim you don't love her?
So that you would turn out to be loving in accordance with what she considers loving?


This has no relevance. Instead, let's say that my daughter says "I love you daddy", and then shoots me in the foot. I would say; "Hey, I thought you loved me, so why shoot me in the foot?"

That's more accurate.

The main problem in religious discussions is that they are loaded with emotions, and often emotional blackmail takes place.

No.

The main problem in religious discussions is that the religious person preaches one thing, and then does the complete opposite.

So the issue is a very practical one: How to argue against someone who is making an emotional argument?

He could have just answered the questions which were quite harmless and nothing too stressful. Instead he said "I'm going to ignore you", and as such, having spent a good while making the post to begin with, I felt it important to point out some christian rules and supposed common christian manners.

If people want to avoid future 'emotional blackmail' they should refrain from preaching one thing, and then doing the opposite.

Snakelord

For one to live in love requires co-operation as brothers, but you would deny this brother the most important thing in his life. You would mock it and ridicule it and ignore this brother's pain and even more show contempt for the source of love that heals his pain. This brother tells you with his own words that Jesus sent His Spirit upon him and in that he was healed and for this he thanks Jesus.
How then can you expect this brother to find fellowship with you given that you will not share in his joy? Perhaps if you could show the caring Christian love in your own heart, maybe this brother and yourself could be friends.

peace

c20

For one to live in love requires co-operation as brothers

I would say; "No it doesn't", but feel it would be polite of me to allow you the required time to support your statement.

Further to which, jesus didn't come to 'make' co-operation between 'brothers'. Instead he came to "..bring the sword. To set a man against his father, a woman against her mother" etc.. He has therefore succeeded and you complain about it? That's a bit silly no?

but you would deny this brother the most important thing in his life.

But as the bible shows, that was jesus' plan. His purpose was to set me against my father etc. Why are you complaining about it?

You also need to support your statement before we can continue with this part.

You would mock it and ridicule it and ignore this brother's pain and even more show contempt for the source of love that heals his pain.

Actually, I'd take him to a doctor. They would cure his pain, while all the praying in the world would not. He could beg to god for the best part of a decade, and he'd still be in pain. A shrink or a doctor cures, or most certainly attempts to. god does nothing, jesus does nothing, the bible does nothing.

This brother tells you with his own words that Jesus sent His Spirit upon him and in that he was healed and for this he thanks Jesus.


My brother does no such thing. I hate to be the one to say it, but the rest of you are not my brothers - you're total unrelated strangers.

How then can you expect this brother to find fellowship with you given that you will not share in his joy?

I have little interest in a strangers joy. My brother gets joy from many things, and while I don't always feel the joy he does from the thinks he gets joy from, I allow him his right to be individual and get joy from whatever he wants to get joy from. If he has a problem 'finding fellowship' with me because we don't share the same joys, it's his own bloody problem.

Perhaps if you could show the caring Christian love in your own heart

And who would be the 'caring christian'? You? The guy who ignored my questions and called me a viper? Get real you pompous nitwit. You dare use the word 'caring' when all that can be seen is a direct lack of it. Furthermore, if you cared you wouldn't ever preach to me but just accept and understand my right to not believe in a god, or care about such being. "How do you expect me to find fellowship with you given that you will not share my joy of being an atheist"?

You're a hypocrite, and dare come in here and claim "caring", while not only contradicting that which you have said 5 seconds prior, but doing nothing other than show a distinct lack of caring?

maybe this brother and yourself could be friends.

A) They are not my brothers

B) I have no desire to be friends with them, especially when the best they can manage is to call me a viper, ignore my questions and tell me they can't find fellowship with me unless I believe exactly what they believe. Call me fussy if you must, but that's the way it is.

Having been asked to give my own thoughts concerning the question at hand in this thread, I will do my best to offer answer to it.

Now, putting aside the question of whether or not such a person who would say "Could you at least find it in your loving, forgiving christian heart to answer the questions?" is a Pharisee or otherwise (I simply have no comment on this, nor do I feel that it is relevant to the actual question of emotional blackmail), is emotional blackmail something you can fight against? I answer that yes it is something that can be fought against.

The difficulty is that one must be aware of the phenomenon, and that the blackmailer is falsely drawing upon emotions to elicit an answer supportive of his/her own claims/wants/needs, etc... In the example given, the young girl saying that if her father doesn't buy her the gift then she will think that he hates her, the girl probably doesn't really mean it. Even if she did believe it, it shouldn't change her father's response to such threats. The best course of action for the father is to call the girl's bluff (or non-bluff), and deny the request. Not only should he deny the request, but he should also give explanation as to why he denied the request. Expression of love comes in many forms, giving of gifts, helping out with the needs of the one loved, etc... Giving in to demands isn't one of them. If the father gives in to such a threat, he isn't really expressing love, he is expressing a fear. Namely, he is expressing the fear that his daughter will believe that he does not love her. Hence, in denying the threat, and explaining why, he will assert his love for her, and allow her to realize that giving of gifts is an expression of love that should come spontaneously, not from demand. He will probably have to put up with some time of her being mad at him, but in the long run, he can be secure in the knowledge that the incident didn't make her believe in his hatred of her.

Likewise, with the given quote "Could you at least find it in your loving, forgiving christian heart to answer the questions?" can such actions be taken, though the issue is a little more complex. I do not know the circumstance and context of this quote, but, taken as it is, I will offer what I can (so please don't try to argue based on your knowledge of the context, since this isn't being written under that scope). Rather, I offer possible course of action for this form of emotional blackmail in general.

One cannot say, based upon this quote alone, the sincerity of the author, that information must come from the context in which it was written. For now, let's assume that the author is not sincere. In asking, "Could you at least find it in your loving, forgiving christian heart to answer the questions?" the author isn't seeking to find truth. The author, in asking this kind of question, is attempting to expose the person being asked as a hypocrite, and therefore isn't honestly seeking truth from the individual. I don't know what the motivations for the person being asked for not answering the questions in question, but for the moment let's assume that his/her intentions are honest. If such a person's intentions are honest, then it is most likely that he has good reason for not answering. If this is truly the case, then his response should be something to the effect of exposing the bluff, and making it clear WHY he isn't answering the questions.

If his intentions AREN'T honest, and he is simply avoiding answering the questions to his own detriment, then there is fault on his side, and the questioner is justified in exposing this person as a fraud, or hypocrite. If this is the case, the in asking "Could you at least find it in your loving, forgiving christian heart to answer the questions?" he is not really making use of emotional blackmail, but rather, making use of supposed assertions to expose falsehood within the individual being questioned. Hence, his actions are justifiable to a degree. It might simply be better for him to expose the fraud in plain english, rather than challenging his in such a subversive way.

Now, IF the questioner is being honest in his supplication, namely "Could you at least find it in your loving, forgiving christian heart to answer the questions?" then the course of action is simple, answer the fellow. If he is truly, and honestly seeking answers, then what reason have you not to answer the questions, even if he is making use of emotional blackmail? You may argue that such usage is wrong, but even if it is, your response to it shouldn't change.

This is my take on it, take it as you like.

...and then 5 minutes later calls us all a "brood of vipers", which is a judgement...Vipers are snakes as far as I know. Calling a computer an iMac is not necessarily correct though, unless you see the features of the computer and for example... it has the features of an iMac. I wouldn't then say that calling that particular computer an iMac is a judgement.“How would you feel if your daughter wanted something that you think she shouldn't have, and she'd say, "Daddy, if you don't buy me this toy, then I will think that you hate me! You don't love me!!" -- hm?
Would you think she is right?
Would you, just because you love her, indulge her and buy whatever she wanted, so that she couldn't claim you don't love her?
So that you would turn out to be loving in accordance with what she considers loving?”This has no relevance. Instead, let's say that my daughter says "I love you daddy", and then shoots me in the foot. I would say; "Hey, I thought you loved me, so why shoot me in the foot?"

That's more accurate.The Magic Rose' quote is actually very relevant to the starting post on this thread. The Snake's post is more relevant to the issue with the chemical guy.

Vipers are snakes as far as I know.

How would that change the fact that it's a judgement and do away with jesus saying not to judge?

Not to mention that it's a tad strange anyway. Are you saying that because my internet name is SnakeLord, it therefore means I am actually a snake in real life and that as such calling me a viper has merit? If you are, then you're an odd one for sure.

How would that change the fact that it's a judgement and do away with jesus saying not to judge?My opinion is not absolute and it doesn't do away with anything quoted above, however it is my right to share it in a discussion (just a discussion) as it is yours to share yours. As was stated, in a paraphrase; one sees a star that has the properties of the Sun one can call it a Sun-like star... or sometimes it is even called a sun. Some judgements are unavoidable and in that sense, I don't think should be referred to as "judgements".
Not to mention that it's a tad strange anyway. Are you saying that because my internet name is SnakeLord, it therefore means I am actually a snake in real life and that as such calling me a viper has merit? If you are, then you're an odd one for sure.As far as I know the person behind the posts of SnakeLord could be a Christian who is testing the beliefs and resolve of others... or... some other 'type' the posts reflect. All I see is a post... and the name which prevents ambiguity when replies to the posts are made. Of course based on the choice of name (be it unfortunate or not), I will at times offer a few puns to bring a point across delicately (with some humour). Of course humour is not absolute and so not all will find it funny, or pleasant.

My opinion is not absolute and it doesn't do away with anything quoted above, however it is my right to share it in a discussion (just a discussion) as it is yours to share yours. As was stated, in a paraphrase; one sees a star that has the properties of the Sun one can call it a Sun-like star... or sometimes it is even called a sun. Some judgements are unavoidable and in that sense, I don't think should be referred to as "judgements".

What has any of that got to do with c20 calling several of us a "brood of vipers"? Whether the star has properties of the sun or not, is completely irrelevant here. Can't we just stick to the "brood of vipers" comment instead of drifting off into worthlessness?

As far as I know the person behind the posts of SnakeLord could be a Christian who is testing the beliefs and resolve of others... or... some other 'type' the posts reflect.

O...k. How that in any way makes me more of a snake I'll never know.

All I see is a post... and the name which prevents ambiguity when replies to the posts are made. Of course based on the choice of name (be it unfortunate or not), I will at times offer a few puns to bring a point across delicately (with some humour). Of course humour is not absolute and so not all will find it funny, or pleasant.

The name comes from the fact that I keep pet snakes. I once went into the office with a snake that had sneaked into my bag. It then went walkabout and scared the shit out of everyone else. *sarcasm* Some christian dude picked it up, got bitten and died on the spot. He should have known not to test god, but he was working by jesus' words about picking up deadly snakes and not being harmed. Poor fool.

Anyway, funny or not, I fail to see how that makes it any less of a judgement.

What has any of that got to do with c20 calling several of us a "brood of vipers"? Whether the star has properties of the sun or not, is completely irrelevant here. Can't we just stick to the "brood of vipers" comment instead of drifting off into worthlessness?Perhaps c2o saw a leader and characterised the rest via the qualities of the leader as he saw them... a room full of iMacs.O...k. How that in any way makes me more of a snake I'll never know.Me neither. The statement reinforces the point that I don't know 'you'; I only know the Snake's posts.Anyway, funny or not, I fail to see how that makes it any less of a judgement.We are all entitled to our opinions. Just a discussion after all.

Perhaps c2o saw a leader and characterised the rest via the qualities of the leader as he saw them... a room full of iMacs.

Oh, stereotyping. Pleasant.

Me neither. The statement reinforces the point that I don't know 'you'; I only know the Snake's posts.

Oh, so because you don't personally know me, the posts have been written by someone else? How would any of this make me a viper?

We are all entitled to our opinions. Just a discussion after all.

I never said people weren't allowed opinions, I merely pointed out that your post has no relevance to C20's judgement that I am a viper. Opinion or not, it still doesn't have any relevance.

You do not see the relevance of the post which doesn't meant it has no relevance. I doubt your opinion is of such absolution. To clarify the general gist of my posts; some name choices are just unfortunate for a religious forum (say SnakeLord as opposed to Rosa Magika - lovely - as are the posts), and will be subject to an amount of punning, be it pleasant or not, be it a judgement or not - regardless of the origin of the name. I saw the chemical guy's post as a humorous pun - I won't judge (;)) c2o's intentions.

Rosa, you chose to be a member of such an irrational restrictive anti-human-nature cult so now you can deal with the consequences.
How you can respond to that quotation is to patiently try to indulge the person, you must, such are the demands of the christian ethical code.
What's the point of comeing here saying "hey this is kind of hard to deal with", no shit, thats exactly why christ is such a bad role model.
Yes, it is very difficult to behave like a christian should in day to day life.
But I don't see what you have to complain about :confused:
You chose to be a christian, you adopted those beliefs because you liked the look of them, I figured you must be a masochist.
It's like putting on barbed wire pants and saying "these damn pants are uncomfortable :mad: what the... argh, shit, I hate these pants, how am I supposed to wear these damn barbed wire pants?"
DON'T!
Take the stupid pants off, why did you put them on in the first place?
It's so obvious just by looking at them that they will be uncomfortable.

Lou,

You have no idea what you just said.

Can you find it in your christian heart to elaborate?
Can you also give me money and compliments while I push you over repeatedly, saying "why don't you get up?" over and over again.

Ha, what am I saying? ofcourse you can.

Satan also tempted Jesus, saying "If you are the Son of God..." didn't he? But remember that the pivot of your argument is that God's law is binding...
Psalm 119:51 The arrogant mock me without restraint, but I do not turn from your law.
Someone who mocks a Christian for the weight of God's demands will not acknowledge who he's really dealing with, and answering him only invites further insult (as this post might prove). "Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you".

It's not neglect of duty not to answer someone who taunts you like that, it's wisdom. And it's not wisdom to taunt a man like that, it's arrogance, or "overweening pride", as Proverbs 21:24 puts it.

As for VIPERS: I don't understand how anyone can seriously wonder about oneself whether the comment that he is a viper is in place or not.

If someone calls me "stupid blonde chicky" I do not go and ask them why they called me that or whether that comment is in place. I take "stupid blonde chicky" to be an insultive criticism that can only be responded to in like manner (with, say, "And you are a fat douche bag!"), or not responded to at all.

***


Rosa, you chose to be a member of such an irrational restrictive anti-human-nature cult so now you can deal with the consequences.

First of all, on the basis of what do you think that I am a Christian? Namely, I have said several times on these forums that I don't consider myself a Christian.


Take the stupid pants off, why did you put them on in the first place?
It's so obvious just by looking at them that they will be uncomfortable.

You really think that people are as bad in their core as you think that you are, huh?

You give people little or no credit that they can be and that they indeed are honest in their quest.

I knew a girl who converted to Mormonism, and she said one day that the only thing she regrets being a Mormon is not being allowed to drink wine.
This is an example where someone's beliefs are very superficial, a mask. Such people indeed see their religion as pants made of barbed wire, that they have put on for reasons that even they don't know -- but wear them anyway.

Not all religious people are like that.


Oh, and I didn't miss the pun of you wanting me to take my pants down.


Can you find it in your christian heart to elaborate?
Can you also give me money and compliments while I push you over repeatedly, saying "why don't you get up?" over and over again.

Ha, what am I saying? ofcourse you can.

*Never* underestimate the power of a human hand. You've got easy talking here, being safely hidden behind a computer screen.

As for VIPERS: I don't understand how anyone can seriously wonder about oneself whether the comment that he is a viper is in place or not.

And there's the problem. The relevance isn't whether the comment is in place or not, but that it goes against the very principles and rules that are supposed to guide a christian. As a result, all the preaching that is done with the effort to appear 'holier than thou' is without warrant, and is nothing but a display of hypocrisy.

It's not about rules...as Snakelord keeps referring to. Being born again is not about following rules...that is being a pharisee...to make it about rules...so maybe you were right Rosa, in using that term. Snake and others are assuming you to be (wanting you to be) a pharisee, as opposed to a born again christian. They do this in ignorance, not knowing that there is a difference between the two. They also do not want to believe that there is a difference, and that is the only reason that they do not know. They want to believe this because it makes it easy on them to ignore the truth about christ, his existance, and his teachings. It makes it easy for them to justify judging you, and denying him. And may I say that they do this in profound ignorance.

It is one of the most stupid, and yet most common ways of denying christ that there is...to say that he must not exist, or be who he says that he is....because a sinner, who believes in him, is not perfect.

So, their arguement is that for Rosa to truly be a christian, she has to be perfect...she has to be jesus. And that arguement my friends, is f'ing retarded. So keep in mind, that if that arguement is the one that you use to rationalize and justify not seeking the truth about christ for yourself in your own life...you know....that so called "christians" aren't perfect....then you're a dumb ass.

So my advice to you Rosa, when confronted with "emotional blackmail", is to patronizingly pat the retard on the head, ignore what they've said as mindless dribble, and speak the truth....

It's not about rules...as Snakelord keeps referring to. Being born again is not about following rules...that is being a pharisee...to make it about rules...so maybe you were right Rosa, in using that term. Snake and others are assuming you to be (wanting you to be) a pharisee, as opposed to a born again christian. They do this in ignorance, not knowing that there is a difference between the two.

Who then would be at fault for this? The christian who professes and claims one thing, (i.e that they follow jesus and his rules/principles), or those 'others' who merely listen to the preaching of the christian, and then question them when they don't do what they preach?

Frankly I think it's a little bit late in the day to be using such a weak copout, and yet this does not stop you.

Of course, what you're saying is also well known. It's the "I stole a bike, but I'm not perfect so god forgives me" excuse of being able to be the world's biggest scumbag without taking blame for it. Aren't you at least supposed to strive to be less guilty of sin? And then, having agreed to that, isn't it a courtesy on my part to inform you when you slip, when you fall further into imperfection?

On a daily basis, the christian will tell me that jesus/god's main law is "love thy neighbour". When you then proceed to punch your neighbour, it's a little to late to say "oops, nobody's perfect", and at the very least you should expect someone to aid you back into sinlessness no?

Have I not provided a service here? Have I not helped certain people be better christians, less sinful christians?

While you might ignore the rules, and indeed say "fuck them", that does not apply to the majority of christians present here, or in my local town. If you cannot abide by the rules that you preach, why preach them?

They want to believe this because it makes it easy on them to ignore the truth about christ, his existance, and his teachings.

What are you talking about? You've just confessed that his teachings are meaningless, by the very fact that you deny them when someone points them back at you.

It makes it easy for them to justify judging you, and denying him.

You're mistaken. For my part, I see no need for justification when it comes to judging. I do as I please, and I do not answer to anyone when it comes to it. I also have no problem with others judging. That will be different for you of course, because after all, it was jesus who said "do not judge". This makes it all the more bizarre when you do judge, even though jesus said to do the opposite. Is it not therefore my absolute right to point it out to you?#

As for 'denying him'. It is nothing more than a complete lack of evidence. It is for the exact same reason you deny el chupacabra.

So, their arguement is that for Rosa to truly be a christian, she has to be perfect...she has to be jesus.

But as shown above, that's not true at all. Nobody said she has to be perfect, but that she should strive to be a little less sinful, a little more humble, and follow jesus teachings a little closer. When someone does the opposite, it is the right of a man with freedom of speech to point that out to them.

So my advice to you Rosa, when confronted with "emotional blackmail", is to patronizingly pat the retard on the head, ignore what they've said as mindless dribble, and speak the truth....

That's not very pleasant now is it? One would expect better things from a follower of jesus. I guess you're still reeling from the fact "your" rock star didn't turn up, and that he still hasn't got the vaguest clue as to who you are. I guess putting yourself in such a position, you shouldn't expect anything else when it all goes up shit creek. While I pat you on the head through sympathy, and excuse your mindless dribble as the words of a deluded simpleton, which you must now agree to as it has been shown for the stupidity that it is, I must point out that you wouldn't know what "truth" is if it stood up and waved a "here I am" banner in front of your face.

Is that what you meant when you said: "patronizingly pat the retard on the head, ignore what they've said as mindless dribble, and speak the truth"?

Oops. Ooooh nooo... (dramatic music). I think I judged The Magic Rose in my previous post. I stated the name was lovely and so were the posts. It seems the character behind them is lovely too. Oh no... I shall go to hell now. Jenyar; wonderful character it seems, always has the ability to courteously put up with the crap he/she gets from some on this forum: somewhat of a role model for me I'd say. Ooops, there I go again. My grave has been dug! Oh such woe!

Who then would be at fault for this? The christian who professes and claims one thing, (i.e that they follow jesus and his rules/principles), or those 'others' who merely listen to the preaching of the christian, and then question them when they don't do what they preach?

What do you mean by "follow Jesus and his teachings?" You are misunderstanding what it is to be born again, like I said. And just to be fair, I would blame you...because I know as well as you do that you don't want to know the truth about Jesus. And I will also blame the pharisees...and this is why. A pharisee is what I call a "church person". They are people to go to church, but are not the church. These are people who slap the Jesus label on their foreheads and go around professing to know him or "follow" him and his teachings, when in reality, these people would not know Jesus if he slapped them across the face. So, they take his name in vain, and by doing so, they witness falsely of him...which happens to be breaking two commandments with one devastating stone...so what about the rules that they go around preaching about and judging everyone but themselves against?????????

Snake, the whole point is that being born again is a spiritual transformation...a spiritual happening. It's the birth of a personal relationship between you and god through an indwelling of the holy spirit...an interaction between your own spirit and his. And that is exactly what Jesus taught. That is the whole point of the conversation that Jesus had with Nicodemus...who was a pharisee. Jesus told him that it's not about rules. Jesus also said that his only commandment was to love one another. Now, I'm not saying that Jesus did not speak of the law. There is law isn't there Snake? The law of gravity? The law of photosynthesis? Yea, there are laws in the universe...everything functions according to law...physical, natural, and spiritual...that's how god made the universe. Funny isn't it? How the people who attest to the existence of the physical and natural laws...even to the point of "worshipping" them so to speak, are so quick to vehemently deny the existence of spiritual ones. Funny? Illogical?

Frankly I think it's a little bit late in the day to be using such a weak copout, and yet this does not stop you.

Whassamatta Snake? What do you want? You want me to offer you up god on a silver platter? You want ME or Rose or anyone else to prove to you that god exists? What? By being perfect? You want me and Rosa to become perfect so that you can know god? Or do you want me and Rosa to deny god because of our imperfection to make you feel better? Stop with the cop out Snake. No one can do this for you. It's up to you. This is what Jesus taught..."seek and you shall find...knock and the door will be opened". So seek...knock. No, you want me and rosa to seek for you...to knock for you? Screw you. How's that for christian? Don't be such a lazy bastard. How's that for christian? You're not going to get any fluffy church person rhetoric out of me dude. You want to know god, then all you have to do is sincerely want to know him and you will. THAT IS LAW. But don't blame me, or Rosa, or anyone else for that matter for the fact that you in no way shape or form want to know god or want to have a relationship with him through christ. That's your own damned decision, and so it's your own damned fault.

Of course, what you're saying is also well known. It's the "I stole a bike, but I'm not perfect so god forgives me" excuse of being able to be the world's biggest scumbag without taking blame for it. Aren't you at least supposed to strive to be less guilty of sin? And then, having agreed to that, isn't it a courtesy on my part to inform you when you slip, when you fall further into imperfection?

On a daily basis, the christian will tell me that jesus/god's main law is "love thy neighbour". When you then proceed to punch your neighbour, it's a little to late to say "oops, nobody's perfect", and at the very least you should expect someone to aid you back into sinlessness no?

No...you do not strive to be less guilty of sin. You know, for someone who so vehemently claims to deny the scriptures, you would think that you would at least familiarize yourself with them first. Jesus says the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you just said. YOU do not do anything but seek a relationship with him through rebirth. He teaches you and guides you through that relationship. If you avoid sin, or accomplish anything good, or of any worth while alive on this planet, it is not of your own will, but of his will...it is not of your own doing, but of his doing through you...it is not of your flesh, but of his spirit. When born again, and through seeking his will in your life, God is able to accomplish good through you DESPITE the fact that you are a wretched sinner. There is no "sinlessness"...there is no "fix" to being a sinner. Being a sinner is something that you're born into, and something you die in....it doesn't go away, and there is no cure. And if you ever hear a church person try to say that one's sinfullness or lack thereof is dependent upon one's works or deeds or behaviours, then they are saying the exact opposite of what jesus taught, and that's because they wouldn't know him if he slapped them across the face.

Sin is exactly like a handicap...it is a handicap...one that is genetically encoded into our flesh. And just like any other handicap of this nature...that you are born with, you do not recover...it does not go away. Like a person with a mental handicap...you can teach them to follow rules, to tie their shoes, to clean their house, to cook their meals. You can teach them truths that help them live better, more productive lives...and live happier...healthier....like how to treat other people and socially interact in a positive way....maybe have a job, or contribute productively to society in some way...to help others. But as much as they learn, they are never going to become "unhandicapped". Just like if you are born again...as much as god teaches you, and as much as what he teaches you heals you and restores your life and helps you...it will never make you "not a sinner". If there is anything that you learn from jesus...from being born again...from knowing him...you learn about just how completely wretched you are in comparison to him. You learn about your sin...you become convicted of it. And that's how you learn too...you see what your sin does to you and your life and to those around you...you see what the sin of the world does to this world and all of us in it. And the thing is...that you know....that as much as you learn of...there is so much more under the surface that you aren't aware of...that you can't see. You learn that you will never be perfect...not in this lifetime anyway.

And if it's up to the pharisee...he would have you believe that you could avoid sin by following these "rules". Well then Mr. Pharisee, if that's all it takes, then I suppose Jesus came here for nothing. Which I suppose is why you nailed him to the cross in the first place right?



Have I not provided a service here? Have I not helped certain people be better christians, less sinful christians?

Oh my yes, Snakelord the martyr...you have helped many. :rolleyes:

While you might ignore the rules, and indeed say "fuck them", that does not apply to the majority of christians present here, or in my local town. If you cannot abide by the rules that you preach, why preach them?

Good f'ing question Snake. Cause it's not about rules. And rules are not what Jesus preached. So a better question might be this...why do you listen to those people who hypocritically preach about rules and judge others against them? Why do you allow those people to make up your mind about Jesus for you? Why do you trust a pharisee with your eternal life? If you would actually take on the responsibility of seeking the truth yourself, instead of relying on hypocrits to do it for you, you would realize that what they are preaching is in direct opposition to what Jesus taught. They are taking his name in vain, and witnessing falsely about him. And if you were to get to know Jesus yourself, you would know this. But it's so much easier to point your finger and blame others right? Easier than admitting that you just don't want to know the truth yourself, and that it's no one's responsibility or fault but your own right?



What are you talking about? You've just confessed that his teachings are meaningless, by the very fact that you deny them when someone points them back at you.

Snake, you apparently don't know what the hell his teachings are sweety???? He taught that no one is good, no not one of us. That we all fall short of the glory of god. That no one gets to heaven or is saved by their own works or deeds. That not one of us is fit to judge another. And that being a christian and receiving eternal life through christ has nothing to do with going to church or to a temple or belonging to some religious sect or organization or following some dogma or set of prescribed behaviours or not sinning. He taught that the only way to the father was through the son, not a priest or a preacher or a book or a building, but through the son. And he taught that the only way to eternal life was by rebirth through the holy spirit. That is how you get to the son...to the relationship with him...through the spirit. It's the only way. THAT IS WHAT JESUS TAUGHT.



You're mistaken. For my part, I see no need for justification when it comes to judging. I do as I please, and I do not answer to anyone when it comes to it. I also have no problem with others judging. That will be different for you of course, because after all, it was jesus who said "do not judge". This makes it all the more bizarre when you do judge, even though jesus said to do the opposite. Is it not therefore my absolute right to point it out to you?#

Who is judging you? The whole point of the thread is that Rosa didn't like being judged...felt that it was wrong...emotional blackmail...which she was absolutely right. And she probably knew that it was wrong because one, well isn't it obvious even to the most moronic person that it is? and two, because jesus says so. So you judge others, and in the same breath are chastizing them for judging? What? Make up your fucking mind. No, you would rather speak out both sides of your mouth than to actually commit to anything true and right...it's the easy way out.

As for 'denying him'. It is nothing more than a complete lack of evidence. It is for the exact same reason you deny el chupacabra.

What? I like that song. lmao.



But as shown above, that's not true at all. Nobody said she has to be perfect, but that she should strive to be a little less sinful, a little more humble, and follow jesus teachings a little closer. When someone does the opposite, it is the right of a man with freedom of speech to point that out to them.

Yea, that would be great, but YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT JESUS' TEACHINGS ARE OR ELSE YOU WOULD BE DOING NO SUCH THING, you idiot. And I mean that affectionately, and in a very "christian" kind of way of course.



That's not very pleasant now is it? One would expect better things from a follower of jesus.

How in the hell would you know? Both sides of your mouth again huh? If you would expect such wonderful things from a "follower", then why wouldn't you "follow" him yourself? And if you don't really believe in him then why say that you would expect such things in the first place? Oh, I know, just so you can be an ass.

As I said, this isn't a game to me...this isn't an act. I'm a sinner...I don't try to be...I'm not perfect...I don't try to be. But what I do try to be is honest...and honesty and the truth as I know it is all that you will ever get from me. Don't like the way it sounds? Tough shit...deal with it. A reluctance to confront the truth...to seek the truth is what keeps people from jesus in the first place...you would rather believe the lies of the flesh. You can't handle the truth.


I guess you're still reeling from the fact "your" rock star didn't turn up, and that he still hasn't got the vaguest clue as to who you are. I guess putting yourself in such a position, you shouldn't expect anything else when it all goes up shit creek. While I pat you on the head through sympathy, and excuse your mindless dribble as the words of a deluded simpleton, which you must now agree to as it has been shown for the stupidity that it is, I must point out that you wouldn't know what "truth" is if it stood up and waved a "here I am" banner in front of your face.

Is that what you meant when you said: "patronizingly pat the retard on the head, ignore what they've said as mindless dribble, and speak the truth"?

No Snake, I meant exactly what I said.

Jenyar: Satan also tempted Jesus, saying "If you are the Son of God..." didn't he? But remember that the pivot of your argument is that God's law is binding...
[indent]Psalm 119:51
*************
M*W: Here you go again telling your fairy stories. Why can't you get it through your thick scull that Paul wrote this -- Jesus didn't. Paul NEVER heard Jesus speak. In fact, Paul created the whole myth of christianity and its dying demigod savior.
*************
Jenyar: The arrogant mock me without restraint, but I do not turn from your law. Someone who mocks a Christian for the weight of God's demands will not acknowledge who he's really dealing with, and answering him only invites further insult (as this post might prove). "Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you."
*************
M*W: Jenyar, it's just too easy to mock you. You've made it so easy for us with your childish fairy stories.
*************
Jenyar: It's not neglect of duty not to answer someone who taunts you like that, it's wisdom. And it's not wisdom to taunt a man like that, it's arrogance, or "overweening pride", as Proverbs 21:24 puts it.
*************
M*W: Jenyar=Arrogant pride. The sad thing is that you still believe in fairy stories. I assume you are an adult by now. Maybe I'm wrong. I just don't understand why you come to sciforums with the silly beliefs you've been brainwashed to believe. It's bad enough that you believe in a mythic dying demigod savior, but it's much worse that you bring your self-embellished fairy stories to the Religion Forum. Come on, Jenyar, you know you believe that your God has a personality and emotions, he thinks, feels, judges you and even dies for you! How convenient. Now you don't have to use your brain for anything except to worship your mythos. A mind is a terrible thing to waste.

... the whole point is that being born again is a spiritual transformation...a spiritual happening. It's the birth of a personal relationship between you and god through an indwelling of the holy spirit...an interaction between your own spirit and his. And that is exactly what Jesus taught.

^^ You have humbled me. I should have just said that in the first place and left it.



... the whole point is that being born again is a spiritual transformation...a spiritual happening. It's the birth of a personal relationship between you and God through an indwelling of the "Holy Spirit...an interaction between your own spirit and "His. And that is exactly what Jesus taught.

^^ Almost left it but couldn't resist. I know you will not mind. :)

Very nice statement.

peace

c20

SnakeLord: And there's the problem. The relevance isn't whether the comment is in place or not, but that it goes against the very principles and rules that are supposed to guide a christian. As a result, all the preaching that is done with the effort to appear 'holier than thou' is without warrant, and is nothing but a display of hypocrisy.
*************
M*W: Oh, the true wisdom of SnakeLord!

which happens to be breaking two commandments with one devastating stone

Hmm.. let's go back a post. You said "It's not about rules...", and yet here you are talking about people breaking rules.

Forget that, let's go forward a few lines instead:

"Jesus also said that his only commandment was to love one another."

His only commandment? Eh? But just a minute ago you said they were breaking two commandments, but now you're telling me jesus said there was only one. Make up your mind.

The rest of your paragraph was telling me about christians, who aren't really christians but go around professing rules falsely and then break the rules they preach. That's exactly what my post was about. You could have made it shorter by just saying "I agree".

So there's some dude preaching to me that I shouldn't judge. He claims to be a follower of jesus, and then when he practices the opposite of what he preaches, I point it out just to be set upon by you, who after a couple of posts decides to completely make my point for me.

Jesus told him that it's not about rules. Jesus also said that his only commandment was to love one another.

Yeah but who cares what jesus commandment was, because "it's not about the rules"? And then when someone does the opposite that jesus commanded, they can't just say "it's not about the rules" when someone points it out to them. It defeats the purpose of preaching in the first place.

There is law isn't there Snake? The law of gravity? The law of photosynthesis?

I fail to see the relevance, but ok..

How the people who attest to the existence of the physical and natural laws...even to the point of "worshipping" them so to speak, are so quick to vehemently deny the existence of spiritual ones. Funny? Illogical?

Eh? Lol.. I'm the one sitting here saying there are rules set by jesus/god that people aren't paying attention to, you then say "It's not about the rules", and then claim I'm denying the existence of rules?

:bugeye: :bugeye: :bugeye:

Whassamatta Snake? What do you want? You want me to offer you up god on a silver platter? You want ME or Rose or anyone else to prove to you that god exists? What? By being perfect? You want me and Rosa to become perfect so that you can know god?

Eh? My debate was that certain people preach, and then do the exact opposite of what they preach - and that I then have an absolute right to point that out to them. This debate is not about the existence of god, or that anyone be perfect.

You claim there's no rules, then claim there's one, then claim there's two, then claim that the man who says there are rules denies the existence of rules. Hell, do you even know what day of the week it is?

Or do you want me and Rosa to deny god because of our imperfection to make you feel better?

When did I ask anyone to deny god? My whole debate says "pay attention to him".

So seek...knock. No, you want me and rosa to seek for you...to knock for you? Screw you.

I have no problem with insult, but would merely ask that if you want to do so, you actually have a worthy reason. I didn't ask anyone to seek, anyone to knock, or anyone to buy my shopping. I merely pointed out that people should not preach and then do the opposite, and then complain when I point it out to them.

Screw you. How's that for christian? Don't be such a lazy bastard. How's that for christian?

I dunno.. I think jesus' number one, (or number two {lol}), commandment was to love one another. Are you not now breaking that very rule as set by jesus? Or, are you going to deny that rule exists and then accuse me of denying the existence of rules? Perhaps you were just going to tell me that rules are not important, while complaining that people break rules with devastating stones?

But don't blame me, or Rosa, or anyone else for that matter for the fact that you in no way shape or form want to know god or want to have a relationship with him through christ. That's your own damned decision, and so it's your own damned fault.

Good morning.

This has nothing to do with wanting a relationship and everything to do with people not abiding by the rules that have been set, even though you feel that there are no rules, there's one rule, there's two rules, the rules don't exist, the rules do exist, the rules aren't important, the rules are important. Fucking hell, your brain is like scrambled egg.

No...you do not strive to be less guilty of sin. You know, for someone who so vehemently claims to deny the scriptures, you would think that you would at least familiarize yourself with them first. Jesus says the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you just said.

The EXACT opposite? That people should strive to be more guilty of sin? Hmm, curious notion.

YOU do not do anything but seek a relationship with him through rebirth.

Oh. That includes ignoring his commandment/s? (sorry, didn't know if the 's' was supposed to be there. You've really confused me.. Is it none? one? two?)

Sin is exactly like a handicap...it is a handicap...one that is genetically encoded into our flesh.

Do you have a genetics degree or is that just a baseless assumption?

Like a person with a mental handicap...you can teach them to follow rules, to tie their shoes, to clean their house, to cook their meals. You can teach them truths that help them live better, more productive lives...and live happier...healthier....like how to treat other people and socially interact in a positive way....maybe have a job, or contribute productively to society in some way...to help others. But as much as they learn, they are never going to become "unhandicapped".

Ok. So this is like pointing out to someone when they sin. They'll still be a sinner of course, but you can teach them to live better, how to treat other people and socially interact in a positive way.. right?

So when I say your insults seen earlier go against jesus commandment to love one another, I am actually helping you.. You'll still be a sinner sure, but then I am teaching you how to treat other people and socially interact in a positive way.. right?

And that's how you learn too...you see what your sin does to you and your life and to those around you...you see what the sin of the world does to this world and all of us in it. And the thing is...that you know....that as much as you learn of...there is so much more under the surface that you aren't aware of...that you can't see.

So then it's a good thing that others are happy to point it out to you.. right? I mean after all, you can't see it, so you need me to show it to you.. right?

Oh my yes, Snakelord the martyr...you have helped many.

Happy to have been of help. Ok, you'll still be a sinner, but perhaps you now know how to treat people and how to socially interact in a positive way..right? After all, you couldn't see it.

Good f'ing question Snake. Cause it's not about rules. And rules are not what Jesus preached.

They're not? A minute ago you said there was one, no two, no none, no.. wait..

So a better question might be this...why do you listen to those people who hypocritically preach about rules and judge others against them?

Well, in general it's just so I can then turn round and point out that hypocrisy, which you then debate against while agreeing fully with.

Why do you allow those people to make up your mind about Jesus for you?

Eh? I let people try, because it's harmless. Just like you're trying in fact. Water off a ducks back.

Why do you trust a pharisee with your eternal life?

Eternal life? There's no such thing.

If you would actually take on the responsibility of seeking the truth yourself, instead of relying on hypocrits to do it for you, you would realize that what they are preaching is in direct opposition to what Jesus taught.

Which version?

"What jesus taught" Lori version 1.1, 1.2 or 1.3?

And if you were to get to know Jesus yourself

The dude's been dead for two thousand years. Unless I was into necrophilia I doubt we'd get to know each other too well.

But it's so much easier to point your finger and blame others right?

As I said, if you don't want to be blamed, don't say one thing and then do the other.

Easier than admitting that you just don't want to know the truth yourself, and that it's no one's responsibility or fault but your own right?

What 'truth' would that be?

Snake, you apparently don't know what the hell his teachings are sweety????

Ehehehehehe. One, two?

That not one of us is fit to judge another

Ah so.. "THAT'S WHAT JESUS TAUGHT"? So what happens when one of your kind judges someone? Does that not go against what jesus taught? Is it not my right to point out that it goes against what jesus taught? Thought so.

Who is judging you? The whole point of the thread is that Rosa didn't like being judged...felt that it was wrong...emotional blackmail...which she was absolutely right.

A) Rose failed to provide the context of the supposed "emotional blackmail" and as such it's harder to 'make judgement upon'. You then told her to slap the retards on the head, which in itself is a judgement - You have judged these people as being retards, no?

and two, because jesus says so.

Says what? Not to judge right? Ah, so why judge me as a "lazy bastard" when you don't even know me? Are you now not going against what jesus said? Is it not my right now to just point that out to you?

So you judge others, and in the same breath are chastizing them for judging?

"Chastizing" is a bit harsh. However, I do reserve the right to point it out to them. What they do with it is upto them, and I have no actual complaint with what they do. However, once again, I reserve the right to point it out to them. When they preach one thing and then do the opposite, I will inform them of it. This helps make them a better person and able to socially interact better.

Btw, I am free to judge. jesus' words don't mean anything to me. When he says you're not fit to judge others, it's only relevant to those who believe in him. Those of us who do not, don't care what he said. As such, you should be listening to him, not I.

Yea, that would be great, but YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT JESUS' TEACHINGS ARE OR ELSE YOU WOULD BE DOING NO SUCH THING, you idiot.

I don't know if I can cope with such abuse.. lol.

Was it one or two btw?

How in the hell would you know?

Well, among other things you just told me what jesus taught, and here you are doing the complete opposite. When he says you're not fit to judge, you just ignore him and judge.

If you would expect such wonderful things from a "follower", then why wouldn't you "follow" him yourself?

Look Lori, the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow sounds wonderful. That does not mean I instantly go looking for it. It works on the evidence, not how peachy sweet it happens to be.

And if you don't really believe in him then why say that you would expect such things in the first place?

Once more, it's to point out the hypocrisy in preaching one thing and then doing the opposite.

Oh, I know, just so you can be an ass.

An ass, an idiot, a moron, a lazy bastard.. what was it jesus taught?

As I said, this isn't a game to me...this isn't an act. I'm a sinner...I don't try to be...I'm not perfect...I don't try to be. But what I do try to be is honest...and honesty and the truth as I know it is all that you will ever get from me. Don't like the way it sounds? Tough shit...deal with it. A reluctance to confront the truth...to seek the truth is what keeps people from jesus in the first place...you would rather believe the lies of the flesh. You can't handle the truth.

What 'truth' would that be? Ah yes, a rock star will be sent to you by god by halloween. Lol, get fucking real. No, don't get fucking real, get fucking help.

No Snake, I meant exactly what I said.

1? 2?

lol.

Snake,

There is law.

We are born sinners and die sinners. Which means that we have an innate tendency to break the law...there is an inherent aversion to the law...to the truth...which is law.

Which is why Jesus came here and died as a sacrifice for us in atonement in the first place...and is why he said to concern ourselves with loving each other instead of concerning ourselves with trying to be perfect according to the law...it's futile.

So there are many laws...there is much law...more than one...more than two. And one things is certain, and that is we as humans in this life will never understand it all, or adhere to it all in it's perfection. Why? Because of sin.

You are right in pointing out that the pharisee judges others and that this is opposing Jesus' teachings. My point is the same. And that they are judging according to rules, and it's not about rules. It's not even about the rule that says "not to judge". It's about a personal relationship with christ. It's about rebirth.

The reason that I called you an ass, idiot, moron, and lazy bastard, is because yes, that is what jesus taught. He says that stupid people look to other humans and books and organizations and their dogmas, and all of the lies of this world to avoid looking at the source of the truth. And that is exactly what you do. Why? Because you don't want to know.

And love does not lie, or coddle. Love tells the truth. You have no problem pointing fingers, and neither do I. I call it like I see it. You are avoiding the truth and trying to act like you have some "point" in doing so, and I'm telling you that you're missing the point. So what about the pharisee? So what? Let them be. What does it concern you? So they're wrong...what does that mean to you?

And I'm not judging you either...I've been there and I've done that and I call it like I see it. I'm still there now...struggling everyday with the battle between the flesh and the spirit. I know I'm a sinner...there is nothing more apparent...except for the love and salvation of jesus. I'm no better than you are...more of a sinner...less of a sinner...smarter...dumber....the only difference between you and I is that there came a point in my life when I sincerely sought the truth from god, and you haven't. You are still wasting time pointing fingers at pharisees and acting as if you've made some profound point by doing so.

Which is why Jesus came here and died as a sacrifice for us in atonement in the first place...and is why he said to concern ourselves with loving each other instead of concerning ourselves with trying to be perfect according to the law...it's futile.

I would ask you: "why is it futile"? I feel the answer would come in a similar form to "we were not created to be perfect". Your very first statements said that very thing in different words. You mentioned an innate tendency to break the laws and so on. This would clearly show that we were "born to be bad", or more to the point: "made to be bad".

Knowing that all of this is futile. Knowing that we have an innate tendency to break the laws, knowing we were born imperfect..

What is jesus sacrificing himself and making laws for? Why is he saying "love one another", when he knows that his father didn't create us that way, but created us with "an innate tendency to break the law"? Would that not render every single commandment/law of his inherently pointless and worthless?

I know that a tiger has an innate tendency to eat people. Do I now jump into the tigers cage and say "don't eat me", especially given the fact that I know it'll never listen to me?

Those are the actions of an idiot, no?

And I know, you'll undoubtedly say that in his heart, jesus hoped we would listen - but hope is irrelevant, considering that not only does he know the outcome - which renders hope pointless, but he actually created us with an innate tendency not to listen, but to break the laws.

You might claim that some have listened, but just before you even claimed it as "futility" and go on to say that we humans will never understand it or adhere to it.

If we don't even understand it, what was the point in saying it to begin with?

The reason that I called you an ass, idiot, moron, and lazy bastard, is because yes, that is what jesus taught

jesus taught you to call me an ass, idiot, moron and lazy bastard? He has a specific grievance with me?

The reason that I called you an ass, idiot, moron, and lazy bastard, is because yes, that is what jesus taught. He says that stupid people look to other humans and books and organizations and their dogmas, and all of the lies of this world to avoid looking at the source of the truth. And that is exactly what you do. Why? Because you don't want to know.

Don't want to know what? Have I not asked? Have I not given everyone the opportunity to present their case and evidence? Are we not confined for the sake of sanity to ask for a little more than simple say so? If you disagree, I will be forced to ask why you don't believe in brahma, odin or zeus. All of us, be us religious or not, demand evidence before accepting it. It is the act of a sane person.

The one difference here comes down to a personal "who gives a shit, it sounds nice to me". While you will openly deny one god, or one leprechaun or one sea monster, you will accept another based upon nothing but your own wants and needs.

In your own mind you know the serious worthlessness of this. With regards to anything else, you would demand evidence, you would demand that it takes more than say so - and yet here you try to force me into that which you wouldn't do in any other situation.

But I will be fair. I will give you the opportunity. I will give you the chance you seek.

Lori: Convey to me why your belief is true. Explain to me why the others are not. Stop me from becoming a hindu, and impress me with the reality of your beliefs.

I doubt you could manage without reverting to a particular book. So further explain to me the validity of this particular book over all the others. Explain how the others are false, how the others are wrong, and how the bible is correct.

You may choose not to do any of this, you may not feel upto trying. In either case, kindly do not say "Because you don't want to know", when I have given you every opportunity.

And love does not lie, or coddle. Love tells the truth.

You are trying to apply personality to an emotion. What does this actually mean in human terms?

I call it like I see it. You are avoiding the truth and trying to act like you have some "point" in doing so

I find this rather rude and upsetting. Did I not ask you twice on my last post? Did I not enquire as to what the 'truth' is? Perhaps it's worth looking at again.

You're just not listening. You said on your last post:

"Easier than admitting that you just don't want to know the truth yourself.."

To this I asked: "What truth would that be?"

Instead of answer, instead of taking that opportunity to express the truth to me, you just made another similar statement: "You're just avoiding the truth". You have said this several times now, along with "because you don't want to know", and similar such statements. You just didn't notice me asking, I guess.

So what about the pharisee? So what? Let them be. What does it concern you? So they're wrong...what does that mean to you?

By that very same token, one could say "So what about emotional blackmail? So what? Let it be? What does it concern you? So they emotionally blackmail people... What does that mean to you?"

It doesn't stop you from debating it, does it? Why would you think I should be any different?

the only difference between you and I is that there came a point in my life when I sincerely sought the truth from god, and you haven't.

Any day will do, my diary is free. I simply await the evidence. You would demand this from anyone else, so why would I not demand the same from you?

Lori_7: A pharisee is what I call a "church person". They are people to go to church, but are not the church. These are people who slap the Jesus label on their foreheads and go around professing to know him or "follow" him and his teachings, when in reality, these people would not know Jesus if he slapped them across the face. So, they take his name in vain, and by doing so, they witness falsely of him...which happens to be breaking two commandments with one devastating stone...so what about the rules that they go around preaching about and judging everyone but themselves against?????????
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M*W: Lori, I know you're a young woman, so I expect that you haven't been around as long as I have nor done the research I have. I agree with what you're saying about "church people." I just wanted to point out to you that the teachings of Jesus can ONLY BE FOUND in the Gnostic Gospels by the people who actually knew Jesus personally. Paul wrote most of the NT. Paul never knew Jesus personally. They did not live at the same time or in the same place. Saul was born around 10AD in Tarsus (what is now Turkey). He died in 68AD in Rome. He was about 30 years old when he had an epileptic seizure and then a 'vision' of the dead Jesus on the Road to Damascus. Seeing bright lights and hearing voices during a seizure is very common. Some of the greatest creators of the world's largest religions have been epileptics. I am posting these websites as references concerning Paul's life and mission.

[/URL]

http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/Paul.html (http://library.flawlesslogic.com/tarsus.htm)

[URL]http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=283&letter=S
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Lori_7: Snake, the whole point is that being born again is a spiritual transformation...a spiritual happening. It's the birth of a personal relationship between you and god through an indwelling of the holy spirit...an interaction between your own spirit and his.
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M*W: This is easy to say, but show us the proof -- or is the proof only a figment of your imagination? Give this some thought. I'm not trying to be snotty.
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Lori_7: And that is exactly what Jesus taught. That is the whole point of the conversation that Jesus had with Nicodemus...who was a pharisee. Jesus told him that it's not about rules. Jesus also said that his only commandment was to love one another.
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M*W: You do know, don't you, that nothing Jesus might have ever said was never written down by him or anyone who knew him WITH THE EXCEPTION of the Gnostic Gospels which, of course, were suppressed by the Church itself! What Jesus might have said to Nicodemus was written by Paul. Everything in the NT that Jesus allegedly said was written by Paul. Paul wrote the epistles first and then commissioned the gospels be written with his editing. One exception is the Gospel of John. It was written after Paul was beheaded in Rome about 68AD. The Gospel of John and Revelations were written between 95-120AD. Not only did John NOT write these two books, scholars now are saying that they were written by Mary Magdalene in symbolic language about her deceased husband Jesus. From my research on Jesus and MM, I believe it was MM who was the spiritual influence in Jesus' life.
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Lori_7: Now, I'm not saying that Jesus did not speak of the law. There is law isn't there Snake? The law of gravity? The law of photosynthesis? Yea, there are laws in the universe...everything functions according to law...physical, natural, and spiritual... that's how god made the universe. Funny isn't it? How the people who attest to the existence of the physical and natural laws... even to the point of "worshipping" them so to speak, are so quick to vehemently deny the existence of spiritual ones. Funny? Illogical?
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M*W: ...as the story is told by Paul, Jesus was a Rabbi and, as a Rabbi, if Jesus existed in this role, Jesus was an enforcer of that law and not a law-breaker. I'm speaking here of Jewish Laws of the Temple, not civil laws, although I feel sure they cross paths occasionally. Jesus wasn't the rebel Paul painted him to be. Jesus was a normal Rabbi who was married (and had to be according to 'the law,' and had children with MM. Before you reply to this, please look it up on the Internet. There are tons of sites.
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Lori_7: You want ME or Rose or anyone else to prove to you that god exists?
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M*W: Yes, we all want proof of God's existence. While you're at it, we'd also like for you to prove Jesus' existence.
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Lori_7: This is what Jesus taught..."seek and you shall find... knock and the door will be opened".
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M*W: Again, these are the words influenced and edited by Paul not Jesus. Jesus never taught this. There's also the possibility that Paul wrote the entire NT except for the Gospel of John and Revelations, and he might have used a pseudonym.
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Lori_7: You want to know god, then all you have to do is sincerely want to know him and you will. THAT IS LAW.
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M*W: No, Lori, that is NOT LAW. That's illogical thinking. It's what psychiatrists call 'magical thinking' which is delusional.
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Lori_7: You know, for someone who so vehemently claims to deny the scriptures, you would think that you would at least familiarize yourself with them first.
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M*W: Lori, just because many of us don't believe in God, Jesus and the scriptures, that doesn't mean we don't know who God, Jesus, and the scriptures are or what they mean to you. This is the Christian cop-out.
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Lori_7: Jesus says the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you just said.
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M*W: Again... Jesus never said anything that has been recorded -- Paul put words in Jesus' mouth to create him to be a believable dying demigod savior. Paul wasn't serving Jesus' purpose, he was serving his own, and profitting by it when he collected money from the people he sold his story of Jesus to -- namely, the goyim -- but Paul did not discriminate against anyone with money. He preached to them all.
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Lori_7: YOU do not do anything but seek a relationship with him through rebirth. He teaches you and guides you through that relationship. If you avoid sin, or accomplish anything good, or of any worth while alive on this planet, it is not of your own will, but of his will...it is not of your own doing, but of his doing through you...it is not of your flesh, but of his spirit.
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M*W: Lori, I promise you that I tried to have a relationship with Jesus long ago, but I realized he wasn't really there. During the times I called on Jesus, he didn't answer. I believed that he had blessed me with this life and every good thing that has come to me, but it wasn't Jesus who sent the good things my way, it was the sweat of my own brow.
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Lori_7: When born again, and through seeking his will in your life, God is able to accomplish good through you DESPITE the fact that you are a wretched sinner.
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M*W: I don't consider myself a sinner. I've lived a good, healthy life, educated myself, and never committed a crime, although I did get a parking ticket once. I raised four children ALONE with no support from anyone -- especially God. I just don't buy that 'wretched sinner' lie. If that were the case, 75% of the world would be 'wretched sinners,' and they're not.
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Lori_7: And if you ever hear a church person try to say that one's sinfullness or lack thereof is dependent upon one's works or deeds or behaviours, then they are saying the exact opposite of what jesus taught, and that's because they wouldn't know him if he slapped them across the face.
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M*W: Again... Jesus never taught this. This was Paul's doing which WAS the exact opposite of what Jesus stood for.
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Lori_7: If there is anything that you learn from jesus...from being born again...from knowing him...you learn about just how completely wretched you are in comparison to him. You learn about your sin...you become convicted of it. And that's how you learn too...you see what your sin does to you and your life and to those around you...you see what the sin of the world does to this world and all of us in it. And the thing is...that you know...that as much as you learn of...there is so much more under the surface that you aren't aware of...that you can't see. You learn that you will never be perfect...not in this lifetime anyway.
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M*W: Lori, Lori, Lori. This was Paul's teaching -- not Jesus'.
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Lori_7: And if it's up to the pharisee...he would have you believe that you could avoid sin by following these "rules". Well then Mr. Pharisee, if that's all it takes, then I suppose Jesus came here for nothing. Which I suppose is why you nailed him to the cross in the first place right?
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M*W: Crucifiction was the lethal injection in the Roman world of Paul. Historically, crucifictions did occur but the whole idea of the Rabbi Jesus being 'nailed to a cross' is ludicrous. Paul was familiar with all the gods of the day, that's why he wrote about a sacrificial dying demigod savior to bring salvation to all mankind -- as did some 16 dying demigod saviors before Jesus' time. All I would ask for you to do is read the research that has been published.
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Lori_7: If you would actually take on the responsibility of seeking the truth yourself, instead of relying on hypocrits to do it for you, you would realize that what they are preaching is in direct opposition to what Jesus taught. They are taking his name in vain, and witnessing falsely about him. And if you were to get to know Jesus yourself, you would know this. Easier than admitting that you just don't want to know the truth yourself, and that it's no one's responsibility or fault but your own right?
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M*W: Lori, many of us on this forum thought we knew the truth at one time, but we've found the truth you believe in to be lies. atheists aren't born, they're made by becoming enlightened about the truth.
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Lori_7: He taught that no one is good, no not one of us. That we all fall short of the glory of god. That no one gets to heaven or is saved by their own works or deeds. That not one of us is fit to judge another. And that being a christian and receiving eternal life through christ has nothing to do with going to church or to a temple or belonging to some religious sect or organization or following some dogma or set of prescribed behaviours or not sinning. He taught that the only way to the father was through the son, not a priest or a preacher or a book or a building, but through the son. And he taught that the only way to eternal life was by rebirth through the holy spirit. That is how you get to the son...to the relationship with him... through the spirit. It's the only way. THAT IS WHAT JESUS TAUGHT.
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M*W: Lori, THAT IS WHAT PAUL TAUGHT.
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Lori_7: The whole point of the thread is that Rosa didn't like being judged...felt that it was wrong...emotional blackmail... which she was absolutely right. And she probably knew that it was wrong because one, well isn't it obvious even to the most moronic person that it is? and two, because jesus says so.
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M*W: Lori, you must have missed reading several of Rosa's judgmental posts. Again, Jesus never said anything that was recorded -- IT WAS PAUL.
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Lori_7: YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT JESUS' TEACHINGS ARE OR ELSE YOU WOULD BE DOING NO SUCH THING, you idiot. And I mean that affectionately, and in a very "christian" kind of way of course.
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M*W: Lori, my dear young lady, apparently you are the one who does not know what Jesus taught and what he didn't. I'm not trying to convince you to give up your belief, but I would highly recommend you learn everything you can about Paul. You need go no further than the search engine.
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Lori_7: As I said, this isn't a game to me...this isn't an act. I'm a sinner...I don't try to be...I'm not perfect...I don't try to be. But what I do try to be is honest...and honesty and the truth as I know it is all that you will ever get from me. Don't like the way it sounds? Tough shit...deal with it. A reluctance to confront the truth...to seek the truth is what keeps people from jesus in the first place...you would rather believe the lies of the flesh. You can't handle the truth.
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M*W: This is not a game to me either. I take my research seriously, and I depend on the biblical scholars and archeologists to provide the evidence which, fortunately, they have done. I will repeat what you have said above, "A reluctance to confront the truth...to seek the truth is what keeps people from jesus in the first place...you would rather believe the lies of the flesh. You can't handle the truth." I redirect this to you and your "reluctance to confront the truth...to seek the truth is what keeps people FROM Jesus," but it is not "in the first place" -- it's usually the last place when the truth is found. Sadly, you believe in lies, because you "can't handle the truth." Don't ever be afraid of the truth. It will serve you well. I wish you the best.

I would ask you: "why is it futile"? I feel the answer would come in a similar form to "we were not created to be perfect". Your very first statements said that very thing in different words. You mentioned an innate tendency to break the laws and so on. This would clearly show that we were "born to be bad", or more to the point: "made to be bad".

Knowing that all of this is futile. Knowing that we have an innate tendency to break the laws, knowing we were born imperfect..

What is jesus sacrificing himself and making laws for? Why is he saying "love one another", when he knows that his father didn't create us that way, but created us with "an innate tendency to break the law"? Would that not render every single commandment/law of his inherently pointless and worthless?

I know that a tiger has an innate tendency to eat people. Do I now jump into the tigers cage and say "don't eat me", especially given the fact that I know it'll never listen to me?

Those are the actions of an idiot, no?

Ok...in the beginning...Adam and Eve walked and talked with God in the garden and did not know of sin...

Do I really have to explain all of this to you? That is kind of my point here you know...is that you don't understand jesus or the bible and yet you are so quick to judge people based upon it, I would call you a pharisee yourself. You have such a problem with the hypocrits, and yet you are one yourself...throwing your so-called knowledge of scripture around, and you don't understand the first thing about it.

The whole point is that there IS perfection in law...in god's law, and in his creation. It is possible, which is depicted in the initial creation and the garden before the fall.

For law to exist, there must also exist the possibility of transgression of that law. In the beginning, we had no knowledge of that possibility or a tendency to trangress...no desire to...and hence, no knowledge of the affects of such a trangression...that being death, and all of the other painful crap that comes with it in all of it's forms.

Enter freewill. In love god gave us freewill. Otherwise we would have been forced to love...mere puppets kept in ignorance...less of a companion than a pet might be and what would be the value in that?

So he gave us a warning and we made a choice, and now we know. We know the consequence of sin because we have lived it. It's the only way to really know...to really understand...to make an informed decision...an informed choice. We know both sides...we see them and feel them and live them everyday of our lives...and the whole point is that you are to use your knowledge to make a choice. Do you want to participate in an eternal life void of sin with your creator or don't you? It's that simple.

So as it is futile to attempt to be perfect, it is not futile to learn from the law and the consequences of adhering to it or transgressing it. And in the end, god will have a creation of beings that have chosen of their own free will and knowledge to live with him in love, peace, purity, and joy, eternally and according to his law...without sin. Making that choice is the point of your existance.



And I know, you'll undoubtedly say that in his heart, jesus hoped we would listen - but hope is irrelevant, considering that not only does he know the outcome - which renders hope pointless, but he actually created us with an innate tendency not to listen, but to break the laws.

You might claim that some have listened, but just before you even claimed it as "futility" and go on to say that we humans will never understand it or adhere to it.

If we don't even understand it, what was the point in saying it to begin with?

Just because you can't understand all of the law, in it's entirety, and perfectly, and adhere to it perfectly and be a perfect person because of it is absolutely no excuse to shut your eyes to it's existance and not to learn???? You can listen! What's stopping you from listening? Well, my point to you is that you are listening to the wrong person/persons. If you want to know the truth about god, then seek it from god, not a human being. Especially not a pharisee for crying out loud. If you know that they are hypocrits then why are you using them to justify your denial of christ? If you knew christ then you would know better.




jesus taught you to call me an ass, idiot, moron and lazy bastard? He has a specific grievance with me?

In general, he says that it is foolish to do what you and many others are doing...in looking to the world and the people in it to try to find truth and fulfillment. You will not find it in this world...in a book...in a church...or in a human. You will only know the truth about god by seeking it from him through jesus christ...it's the only way to know for sure. Like the pharisees...fools...claiming to believe something because it is written in a book, or because some other human tells them to...to follow the herd like some blind dumb sheep...to fit in...to be accepted....to make themselves feel like they're "good" or "right" or "better". They don't actually believe...it's impossible because they don't actually know. Faith is not a belief in something that you don't know to be true, but a belief in something that you do know to be true. And Jesus will say to those pharisees, "I never knew you". When you are born again of the spirit...when you meet Jesus heart to heart...when you hear his voice speak to you...when you feel his presence and his love...YOU KNOW IT.




Don't want to know what? Have I not asked? Have I not given everyone the opportunity to present their case and evidence? Are we not confined for the sake of sanity to ask for a little more than simple say so? If you disagree, I will be forced to ask why you don't believe in brahma, odin or zeus. All of us, be us religious or not, demand evidence before accepting it. It is the act of a sane person.

The one difference here comes down to a personal "who gives a shit, it sounds nice to me". While you will openly deny one god, or one leprechaun or one sea monster, you will accept another based upon nothing but your own wants and needs.

In your own mind you know the serious worthlessness of this. With regards to anything else, you would demand evidence, you would demand that it takes more than say so - and yet here you try to force me into that which you wouldn't do in any other situation.

But I will be fair. I will give you the opportunity. I will give you the chance you seek.

Lori: Convey to me why your belief is true. Explain to me why the others are not. Stop me from becoming a hindu, and impress me with the reality of your beliefs.

I doubt you could manage without reverting to a particular book. So further explain to me the validity of this particular book over all the others. Explain how the others are false, how the others are wrong, and how the bible is correct.

You may choose not to do any of this, you may not feel upto trying. In either case, kindly do not say "Because you don't want to know", when I have given you every opportunity.

Want to know the truth about god and about jesus that's what. And NO SNAKE, that is the whole point I'm trying to make. Stop looking to me or to any other person other than yourself to prove anything to you. Stop looking to books. You're looking in the wrong place. Look in your own heart. Ask yourself this question..."If God were real, and Jesus were really his son, would I really want to know?" THAT is the truth that I'm talking about. The reason that I say that you don't want to know is because of the law....law that I have lived through that says that all you have to do to know the truth, is to sincerely seek it. And I think, rather I know because I used to do it myself, that we can tell ourselves that we want to know, and we can read books, and we can intellectually debate, and we can become very educated theologians for that matter, and never get to the truth...never know for sure...and the reason is that we don't really want to know. It's too consequential...it means too much. The fucking pharisees have put such a negative spin on jesus...telling lies about him...misrepresenting him...that we don't want to know...we harbor such a negative association of him. I know that personally, it took some extremely hard knocks for me to become humbled enough to sincerely seek the truth from god himself...it was painful...i didn't like being brought to my knees...but i HAD to know...regardless of the consequences. And that is the exact point at which my life changed forever. It wasn't overnight...it's a progression...a life long journey. But that is the point at which I turned onto the right path...onto any path...the point in which I stopped playing around and got real. And god showed me, and he's been showing me ever since. Showing me the truth...about himself...about myself...about law...about life. And that's the ONLY way I know. You're not going to get it out of a book snake, or out of another person...looking in the things of this world...the things of the flesh is futile. Look to god himself. He knows just how to show you.



You are trying to apply personality to an emotion. What does this actually mean in human terms?

Um...it means I'm sorry....I can be pretty crass. But just so you know I'm a lot harder on myself. Actually, it means that if I love you, I'm not going to lie to you...if you're being an ass, I'll call you an ass. It means that just because I call you an idiot, doesn't mean that I don't love you. Jesus is a lot more eloquent than I am...and a lot more loving...no pride or weak emotionality to deal with...but he doesn't lie to me. When he convicts me of sin, it's not ever pleasant to hear necessarily. I mean I want to know the truth, otherwise I wouldn't hear it, as he doesn't come uninvited, but the truth is not always pretty...not mine anyway. I'm absolutely wretched...I horrify myself on almost a daily basis...I'm pathetic and weak and a complete asshole...a selfish, spoiled bitch. Now, jesus doesn't use those words necessarily, but he makes his point pretty clear. The thing about jesus is that he makes it while letting you know that you are unconditionally loved and forgiven by him the entire time. The whole point of you seeking the truth about yourself from him...seeking the conviction...is that you care...and that you want to know the truth...that you want to make things right...to do better...to learn...to change...to repent...and that is why you are forgiven...because you seek forgiveness.





I find this rather rude and upsetting. Did I not ask you twice on my last post? Did I not enquire as to what the 'truth' is? Perhaps it's worth looking at again.

You're just not listening. You said on your last post:

"Easier than admitting that you just don't want to know the truth yourself.."

To this I asked: "What truth would that be?"

Instead of answer, instead of taking that opportunity to express the truth to me, you just made another similar statement: "You're just avoiding the truth". You have said this several times now, along with "because you don't want to know", and similar such statements. You just didn't notice me asking, I guess.

I'm sorry, I thought that you knew what I was talking about...I mean...THE TRUTH ABOUT JESUS.




By that very same token, one could say "So what about emotional blackmail? So what? Let it be? What does it concern you? So they emotionally blackmail people... What does that mean to you?"

True. I could say that to Rosa, and basically did when I told her to ignore it and speak the truth anyway, because it shouldn't mean anything to her....it is meaningless. But to you, I'm sincerely asking "what does it mean to you?" What the pharisees do...what the hypocrits say...to you...to you personally...what does it mean? You may say nothing, and that would be a great answer, but I know of a lot of people who use the actions of the pharisees to rationalize and justify their denial of christ. I am asking you...do you do that? Do you say to yourself, "I don't believe that jesus is the son of god" because his followers aren't perfect? Because they are sinners? Because many who claim to know him and follow his ways do not and are liars? This is why I tell you that you are a fool if you look to others to seek the truth for you...if you seek the truth about god from other humans...you will never find it...not in them...not in a book. You will only find it in the spirit...seeking with the sincerity of your own heart. It is personal, and no one can do this for you.



Any day will do, my diary is free. I simply await the evidence. You would demand this from anyone else, so why would I not demand the same from you?

You know, as much as I know that this all depends upon you, and your search for the truth or lack thereof, I do pray to be used by god as a witness. It's why I came out here...what...six years ago or so...screaming my head off about aliens being demonic, and the abduction experience being spiritual...demonic...that they were the nephilim...that they would serve to usher in the one world govt of the antichrist...the one world religion of the false prophet...perpetuate the mark of the beast...a genetic alteration...serve as a cover up for the rapture of the church. Cause I wanted to help somebody...I wanted to share what god told me...I wanted to warn someone...to do something to help...to serve...to witness. I wanted god to be able to use me...I had prayed for that. People thought I was nutso back then too...man, they hated me. Things haven't changed much. lol. But it turns out...years later...that god did use me to help someone...my rock star. I didn't know it back then, but he was one of the people that I used to talk to out here. He still posts out here all the time. He was always really nice to me. And for some reason I never thanked him...I've read through the archives and I found a few instances when he defended me and took up for me...he was really sweet. Not an asshole like me. So I'd like to thank him now. To apologize for not thanking him then, and for being such a bitch to him on certain occasions. I was wrong, and I'm really, really sorry if I ever hurt his feelings, which I'm sure that I did. I never, ever want to do that again. Anyway, where was I?

Oh yea...to witness to you Snake...I sincerely hope...I pray, and ask my Father, in the name of Jesus Christ, that I may in some way be a witness to you...and to others on this board. I hope that is the reason that I'm out here being a bitch this time...lol. Seriously...I hope that there is some way that what I'm going through right now, and what will happen to me in the near future...NOT KNOWING EXACTLY WHEN...but at some point, hopefully sooner than later...I hope and pray that it provides enough "evidence" for you to get you to seek the truth for yourself from god himself. I really do wish that there is some way he can use me to help you find him.

Faith is not a belief in something that you don't know to be true, but a belief in something that you do know to be true. And Jesus will say to those pharisees, "I never knew you". When you are born again of the spirit...when you meet Jesus heart to heart...when you hear his voice speak to you...when you feel his presence and his love...YOU KNOW IT.


Ah the wisdom of Lori_7 - like water flowing to them. If only they would drink from your cup and then pass it around.

peace

c20

but amoeba-man, they might not be thirsty.

but amoeba-man, they might not be thirsty.

Nevertheless water always follows the path of least resistance.

M*W: Lori, I know you're a young woman, so I expect that you haven't been around as long as I have nor done the research I have. I agree with what you're saying about "church people." I just wanted to point out to you that the teachings of Jesus can ONLY BE FOUND in the Gnostic Gospels by the people who actually knew Jesus personally. Paul wrote most of the NT. Paul never knew Jesus personally. They did not live at the same time or in the same place. Saul was born around 10AD in Tarsus (what is now Turkey). He died in 68AD in Rome. He was about 30 years old when he had an epileptic seizure and then a 'vision' of the dead Jesus on the Road to Damascus. Seeing bright lights and hearing voices during a seizure is very common. Some of the greatest creators of the world's largest religions have been epileptics. I am posting these websites as references concerning Paul's life and mission.

[/URL]

http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/Paul.html (http://library.flawlesslogic.com/tarsus.htm)

[URL]http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=283&letter=S


I am not a young woman...I am 37 years old. I have researched until I couldn't research anymore...studied all of the world's major religions, mythologies, and any and all supernatural phenomenon that I have been made aware of. I researched enough to know this....that you will never know for sure by researching...out of a book anyway...history...opinion...theology...even the bible.

And perhaps you're missing my point, but MW, I KNOW JESUS PERSONALLY.

That's my whole point...that is how you KNOW...you know HIM. That's what being born again means. What on earth do people think it means anyway? Church people, and others who debate and intellectualize and research and waste their time trying to deduct some knowledge of god. Do you just skip the part where jesus talks about being born again or what? Well, my advice to you is to stop skipping over it and check into it cause it's the most important part.


Lori_7: Snake, the whole point is that being born again is a spiritual transformation...a spiritual happening. It's the birth of a personal relationship between you and god through an indwelling of the holy spirit...an interaction between your own spirit and his.
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M*W: This is easy to say, but show us the proof -- or is the proof only a figment of your imagination? Give this some thought. I'm not trying to be snotty.
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MW, why on earth should I have to give you proof of anything? I can't...and even if I could, trust me, it would not matter one bit. The whole point is that if you really truly wanted to know the truth, YOU WOULD. Because god knows YOUR heart, and YOUR desire...to know, whether it is sincere or not. You are attributing way too much control and power to me...snakeypoo is too...I can't prove anything to you...but God can. But you don't want to know, so why pretend? I can testify to you, and you call me a liar. I can witness to you, and you call me crazy and delusional. Even when all of the evidence of my miracle comes forth...you will say it is a lie...that it was corroborated...trumped. Don't you see? It's not up to me...it's up to YOU. I didn't have anyone prove god's existance to me. People witnessed to me...told me about their own experiences. I wanted to believe them...but still couldn't know FOR SURE. You can't know FOR SURE until god shows you himself. It is a personal interaction between you and god, and no one else has anything to do with it. That's the way it MUST be. Otherwise, you're just taking someone's word for something...being spoonfed...it's just not the way...it's not HIS way.

Lori_7: And that is exactly what Jesus taught. That is the whole point of the conversation that Jesus had with Nicodemus...who was a pharisee. Jesus told him that it's not about rules. Jesus also said that his only commandment was to love one another.
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M*W: You do know, don't you, that nothing Jesus might have ever said was never written down by him or anyone who knew him WITH THE EXCEPTION of the Gnostic Gospels which, of course, were suppressed by the Church itself! What Jesus might have said to Nicodemus was written by Paul. Everything in the NT that Jesus allegedly said was written by Paul. Paul wrote the epistles first and then commissioned the gospels be written with his editing. One exception is the Gospel of John. It was written after Paul was beheaded in Rome about 68AD. The Gospel of John and Revelations were written between 95-120AD. Not only did John NOT write these two books, scholars now are saying that they were written by Mary Magdalene in symbolic language about her deceased husband Jesus. From my research on Jesus and MM, I believe it was MM who was the spiritual influence in Jesus' life.
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I know Jesus personally, and he explained all of this to me personally. He taught me these things through my life experience, not through some bible study course, or historical perspective. I understand it because I've lived it and he explained it to me using my own personal experience and the world around me. That's how he always teaches people...through this personal relationship that I keep referring to. The way it works is that he teaches me something, and then later at some point I end up finding it confirmed in scripture.

MW, why are you so hung up on this historical aspect of who wrote what parts of the bible and when? It doesn't matter. Are you suggesting that god doesn't have the power to control the writing of his own book? Yes, it's obvious that you don't know him or understand him. Stop worrying about the details...stop thinking that we humans have suceeded in foiling his efforts. Just remember that nothing is impossible with god. And you shouldnt even be trying to understand the bible anyway without the guidance of the holy spirit. Stop trying to teach yourself, and let god teach you. The bible is a very special book...very different from any other book. It's god's book...so let him use it to teach you if you want to learn. Oh, nevermind, I forgot, you don't really want to learn the truth...you want to use it to prove that you're "right".


Lori_7: Now, I'm not saying that Jesus did not speak of the law. There is law isn't there Snake? The law of gravity? The law of photosynthesis? Yea, there are laws in the universe...everything functions according to law...physical, natural, and spiritual... that's how god made the universe. Funny isn't it? How the people who attest to the existence of the physical and natural laws... even to the point of "worshipping" them so to speak, are so quick to vehemently deny the existence of spiritual ones. Funny? Illogical?
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M*W: ...as the story is told by Paul, Jesus was a Rabbi and, as a Rabbi, if Jesus existed in this role, Jesus was an enforcer of that law and not a law-breaker. I'm speaking here of Jewish Laws of the Temple, not civil laws, although I feel sure they cross paths occasionally. Jesus wasn't the rebel Paul painted him to be. Jesus was a normal Rabbi who was married (and had to be according to 'the law,' and had children with MM. Before you reply to this, please look it up on the Internet. There are tons of sites.
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MW, what in god's name is your point dear???? Who cares???? The fact is that you don't know jack. Tons of sites or not...there are tons of sites about all kinds of things. The truth is that you find sites that support what you want to believe. You deem those that you want to believe as true, and those that you dont' as false. The fact is that you and everyone believe what you WANT to believe. The only point at which you will know for sure is the point at which you decide that you want to know the truth about jesus regardless of what it is, and regardless of what it means...barring any and all consequences. Then and only then will you actually meet jesus, get to know him, and have a relationship with him. Then you will find that it doesn't matter much to you what the hell paul said or didn't say, or how many websites there are, cause you get the truth from the source!


Lori_7: You want ME or Rose or anyone else to prove to you that god exists?
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M*W: Yes, we all want proof of God's existence. While you're at it, we'd also like for you to prove Jesus' existence.
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That's insane. Why in the world would you say that? Think for a moment about who god is...about what he is...about all of this supposed knowledge that you have from your "research", and then tell me how what you just asked of me makes any sense whatsoever. God doesn't need my help. And you wouldn't believe me if I could show you proof. Like I said, I tell you, you call me a liar...I explain the circumstance and you call me delusional. I'll give you evidence, and you will say that it's trumped. The only one who will prove anything to you is god himself, but you have to want to know first...THAT IS LAW. I know that the only reason that you don't already know him...IS BECAUSE YOU DON'T WANT TO.


Lori_7: This is what Jesus taught..."seek and you shall find... knock and the door will be opened".
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M*W: Again, these are the words influenced and edited by Paul not Jesus. Jesus never taught this. There's also the possibility that Paul wrote the entire NT except for the Gospel of John and Revelations, and he might have used a pseudonym.
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No, sorry, you misunderstood...Jesus taught ME that...personally...through my life experience. It "just so happens" to be substantiated in scripture. MW, I suppose you think that Paul is greater than god yes? That Paul was able to thwart the efforts of god? So why don't you worship Paul then?


Lori_7: You want to know god, then all you have to do is sincerely want to know him and you will. THAT IS LAW.
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M*W: No, Lori, that is NOT LAW. That's illogical thinking. It's what psychiatrists call 'magical thinking' which is delusional.
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What the hell do psychiatrists know about god??? lmao. that's funny. No, it's not magic, it's spiritualy law. People used to think that gravity and lightning were magic too, when they were ignorant of the law. So ask yourself honestly...if jesus were the son of god and the bible was god's word would you really want to know? if you could have a personal relationship with god through christ would you want to? Your answer to those questions should serve to prove my point just fine.


Lori_7: You know, for someone who so vehemently claims to deny the scriptures, you would think that you would at least familiarize yourself with them first.
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M*W: Lori, just because many of us don't believe in God, Jesus and the scriptures, that doesn't mean we don't know who God, Jesus, and the scriptures are or what they mean to you. This is the Christian cop-out.
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Snake didn't seem to have a grasp on some of the most fundamental concepts of the scriptures...I was merely pointing that out.


Lori_7: Jesus says the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you just said.
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M*W: Again... Jesus never said anything that has been recorded -- Paul put words in Jesus' mouth to create him to be a believable dying demigod savior. Paul wasn't serving Jesus' purpose, he was serving his own, and profitting by it when he collected money from the people he sold his story of Jesus to -- namely, the goyim -- but Paul did not discriminate against anyone with money. He preached to them all.
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Wow, you have this vast conspiracy all figured out huh MW? Well kudos to you...you have succeeded in rationalizing your own intentions. whoop-de-do...no one ever does that. :rolleyes:


Lori_7: YOU do not do anything but seek a relationship with him through rebirth. He teaches you and guides you through that relationship. If you avoid sin, or accomplish anything good, or of any worth while alive on this planet, it is not of your own will, but of