You spend an enormous amount of time doing hard work and labor just to bareley get paid minimum wage $6.15 per hour. Meanwhile rich people such celebrities don't do the least bit of work, and get tons of money.

Life's a bitch, isn't it?

cool skill i guess you have to go and make a debut in hollywood then....**steel blue***

You spend an enormous amount of time doing hard work and labor just to bareley get paid minimum wage $6.15 per hour. Meanwhile rich people such celebrities don't do the least bit of work, and get tons of money.

I earn less than that ....and I'm perfectly happy and content. My food bill is just over $2 per day. My entertainment bill is $39 per month for the Internet connection ...the library is free, so I read novels for free.

Just so you know, I was raised poor, so I know a little bit about it. And ya' know, interestingly, I was one of the happiest, most content kids in the whole school. All the rest of 'em seemed so concerned about getting a car, or going to the movies, or buying new clothes, or .....any of millions of things that they thought would make them happy. None of it ever did.

Baron Max

I earn less than that ....and I'm perfectly happy and content. My food bill is just over $2 per day. My entertainment bill is $39 per month for the Internet connection ...the library is free, so I read novels for free.

Just so you know, I was raised poor, so I know a little bit about it. And ya' know, interestingly, I was one of the happiest, most content kids in the whole school. All the rest of 'em seemed so concerned about getting a car, or going to the movies, or buying new clothes, or .....any of millions of things that they thought would make them happy. None of it ever did.

Baron Max
Do you think it is fair that you do all the labor, and get paid next to nothing while others do next to nothing or live a highly abundant life, and get paid everything?

Do you think it is fair that.....

Who or what said that life is supposed to be fair? Where did you get that silly-assed notion? And let me ask you this; Why should it be fair?

Baron Max

You spend an enormous amount of time doing hard work and labor just to bareley get paid minimum wage $6.15 per hour. Meanwhile rich people such celebrities don't do the least bit of work, and get tons of money.
It's a free market, dude.

You're worth want you're paid.

Minimum wage is a weak acknowlegement that you even exist. If you want to earn more, you have to be worth more to the free market.

It's a rude awakening, no doubt, but there it is.

not true. when my brother was working for his old engineering firm, they were charging $40 an hour for his labour, and paying him just over the minimum wage of $9.15 at the time. that other $30 goes into the pocket of the owner. the rich leech from the labour of the workers.

not true. when my brother was working for his old engineering firm, they were charging $40 an hour for his labour, and paying him just over the minimum wage of $9.15 at the time. that other $40 goes into the pocket of the owner. the rich leech from the labour of the workers.
Dude, your bro wouldn't have even been paid the 9.15 if it weren't for someone else's ability to bring to life a firm able to offer product to a market willing to pay the firm's asking price which the firm was willing to share with him for drone work.

If your bro wants to earn more than 9.15, more like 40.00, all he has to do is form his own firm able to command 40.00 from the free market.

If he can't do that, he's worth only the 9.15 he's so far been able to negotiate in trade.

Do you think it is fair that you do all the labor, and get paid next to nothing while others do next to nothing or live a highly abundant life, and get paid everything?
What are you, a communist? You don't like being poor? Get a better job. Or maybe get an education so you can get a better job.

I've been poor. When I was supporting a wife and kid and working my way thru college. I did yard work, worked at seven-eleven, worked at a factory, even worked for the government. Most of the time I had more than one job in addition to being a full time student.

I paid my dues, and now do quite well. You could do the same. Stop bitching and get to work.

I've been poor. When I was supporting a wife and kid and working my way thru college. I did yard work, worked at seven-eleven, worked at a factory, even worked for the government. Most of the time I had more than one job in addition to being a full time student.
Ha! I'm in the same situation right now...
Except that the govenrment won't allow me to work and will separate me from my wife and child if I try to work... :bugeye:

Minimum wage(at $6.15 an hour) is like $750 a month after taxes, that's not really what I consider poor, closer to lower-middle class. My moms has supported 8 kids from $402 a month and uber food stamps for like 5 years now. If you're unhappy with life, either learn a little about real estate, save up and invest, or save your money, go buy a pound of (insert random drug here), and flip it. Keep doing that until you have enough money to buy a gas station or something. If that's too hard for you, go to school.

It's been demonstrated many times that "poor" people only feel bad when they begin thinking of themselves as unfortunate. And this generally only happens in times and places where there is a large disparity in prosperity so the "poor" have "rich" people to observe as a reference standard. In times and places where almost everyone is not only "poor" but actually less prosperous than the people who are perceived in modern America as "poor," they tend not to be as dissatisfied.

Poverty is, then, a state of mind rather than an economic condition.

Baron Max, I've got to ask: How do you keep your food budget at $2 per day?

Deleted

It's been demonstrated many times that "poor" people only feel bad when they begin thinking of themselves as unfortunate. And this generally only happens in times and places where there is a large disparity in prosperity so the "poor" have "rich" people to observe as a reference standard. In times and places where almost everyone is not only "poor" but actually less prosperous than the people who are perceived in modern America as "poor," they tend not to be as dissatisfied.

Poverty is, then, a state of mind rather than an economic condition.
I love you, Fraggle... :p

Baron Max, I've got to ask: How do you keep your food budget at $2 per day?
I wanna know that too!!

Maybe all that he eats is Kraft(tm) food! :D

In other words: junk.

Ramen noodles?

Ha! I'm in the same situation right now...
Except that the govenrment won't allow me to work and will separate me from my wife and child if I try to work... :bugeye:
Do you mean you're on welfare? I was never on welfare, although my wife signed up for WIC without telling me.

Do you mean you're on welfare? I was never on welfare, although my wife signed up for WIC without telling me.
Everyone who has babies living with them doesn't get WIC automatically?

No, you have to sign up for it and meet certain income requirements. I was opposed to welfare, so my wife signed up without telling me. I only found out when I noticed she was suddenly buying a lot of cheese and juice {the WIC programs gives you vouchers for cheese, juice, and baby formula}. After some arguing, she finally canceled it once I found out it was a form of welfare.

Considering all the taxes I pay now, I should have milked that program for all it was worth. Oh well, I was raised to not accept handouts. I mean, what kind of Republican would I be if I was on Welfare?

Do you mean you're on welfare? I was never on welfare, although my wife signed up for WIC without telling me.
The government won't allow us to go to welfare. And they pretty much require us to pay over $1,000 per month. We're in Canada, btw...

I earn less than that ....and I'm perfectly happy and content. My food bill is just over $2 per day. My entertainment bill is $39 per month for the Internet connection ...the library is free, so I read novels for free.

Just so you know, I was raised poor, so I know a little bit about it. And ya' know, interestingly, I was one of the happiest, most content kids in the whole school. All the rest of 'em seemed so concerned about getting a car, or going to the movies, or buying new clothes, or .....any of millions of things that they thought would make them happy. None of it ever did.

Baron Max

Yes, I have quite similar feelings. We never had money when I was young. We were the only family in my street that didn't have a car for instance. My father was unemployed for most of my later childhood life. My mother just worked as a cleaning lady to make ends meet. But we always had food. We always had the essentials.

Later when I was a student I had to work during my free time to make ends meet. And I could only make them meet by living a sparse life.

Now I still don't have a car. Or a big shiny TV. Or a glorious career. I'm just a scientist. Salary is not that good. But it's enough for the essentials. Even for raising a family. Shame that it won't last of course. A scientific career is most of the times a dead-end.

---------

The reaction to a poor youth can also have the opposite reaction. Some cannot stand it. They need to compensate in later life for the lack of money in their childhood years.

I can basically do what I need to do. That's enough. Don't need to be rich.

----------

That said, there is no reason for extreme differences. Especially if the necessity to be stinking rich is just a artificial need induced by an artificial environmennt.

Nobody needs a billion to be happy. Nobody should have a billion. Especially since money can make you more equal in the modern social structure.

Considering all the taxes I pay now, I should have milked that program for all it was worth. Oh well, I was raised to not accept handouts. I mean, what kind of Republican would I be if I was on Welfare?
a republican that needed a little extra help.
there is nothing wrong with that, as long as you dont abuse the system.

Of all the people I've met, the happiest and most generous with what little they had were those who would be considered poor by any modern standard you care to impose. However that said extreme poverty is neither dignified nor desirable and should and could be eliminated. conspicuous consumerism is not sustainable and we might learn something from Baron Max about how we can live on less much less....and maybe even be happier to boot (although he doesn't come across as being that happy).

...we might learn something from Baron Max about how we can live on less much less....and maybe even be happier to boot (although he doesn't come across as being that happy).


...LOL! It's difficult for me to type sometimes because I'm laughing so hard! IF it weren't for the humor at this place, I wouldn't even be here. :)

Baron Max

I did yard work, worked at seven-eleven, worked at a factory, even worked for the government. Most of the time I had more than one job in addition to being a full time student.
You are a servant. How pathetic. You serve serve and serve, and get paid crap. You do the actual work, and get paid shit. Meanwile, the rich don't have to do any of that nonsense, and make alot more money than that.

Who or what said that life is supposed to be fair? Where did you get that silly-assed notion? And let me ask you this; Why should it be fair?
Because that is what equal justice is about. That is what human rights are for. All individuals are to be treated fair under law. 2 people committing the exact same crime should get the exact same trial and exact same punishment.

That is how the idealists created the constitution of this country.

Regarding economics, You claim it is ok to be poor, and do all the work that supports your rich masters pockets. That is slavery. It is not slavery when those that do the service get paid properly. Instead, they get paid the least of all.

Aaw Baron Max I knew you was just a rich old dude all along. A lot of the humour is unintentional I suspect. Still stand by what I said about living on less but you can give up your Porche first!

Get a better job.
Is this some kind of joke?
A job? Losers get jobs.

Because that is what equal justice is about. That is what human rights are for. All individuals are to be treated fair under law. 2 people committing the exact same crime should get the exact same trial and exact same punishment.

That is how the idealists created the constitution of this country.

Regarding economics, You claim it is ok to be poor, and do all the work that supports your rich masters pockets. That is slavery. It is not slavery when those that do the service get paid properly. Instead, they get paid the least of all. Indeed...

Nobody needs a billion to be happy. Nobody should have a billion. Especially since money can make you more equal in the modern social structure.
There are people in this world that have millions and billions of dollars. Yet there is poverty on this planet. This is impractical. They should be stripped of their funds whic should be diverted to the poor.

Maybe they should also be re-educated.

There are people in this world that have millions and billions of dollars. Yet there is poverty on this planet. This is impractical. They should be stripped of their funds whic should be diverted to the poor.
And how would you go about re-distributing wealth?

Maybe they should also be re-educated.
Indeed...

Maybe they should also be re-educated.
Indeed...
Indeed.

I think being poor just makes you want to kill everyone around you, thus you'll become a postal worker and go nuts shooting everyone. I'd like to point out sometimes being poor makes life easier, you find an inexpensive place to live, only buy what you really want, it's kinda easier then living everyday working for more money when it really never accomplishes much. I'd rather have fun playing online, chatting, and stuff then going to Europe on vacation but always worrying if next year I can afford it.

i've been rich and i've been poor but i've never been a whore. ha ha ha ha ha

I'd like to point out sometimes being poor makes life easier

This is not true.

I think being poor just makes you want to kill everyone around you, thus you'll become a postal worker and go nuts shooting everyone. That's a joke?

Is this some kind of joke?
A job? Losers get jobs.
Oh man. I so wish Sciforums allowed signatures right now.

Oh man. I so wish Sciforums allowed signatures right now.
This has nothing to dow ith signatures.

The fact is that the rich own you. They control you. You are a slave.

The fact is that the rich own you. They control you. You are a slave.

Can you explain that, Cool Skill? I mean, HOW do the rich do such things to the people?

And how can you explain that some poor people become rich people by hard work, luck or whatever means available? Many, many people start out poor and become rich in the USA, the statistics are available if you know where to look. So how is that possible if the rich own us, control us and enslave us?

Baron Max

I thought you didn't believe in statistics?

Poverty is a trap and wealth is a prison.

Nobody owes you shit, cool_skill. The sooner you get that into your head, the better.

Life isn't fair and no, it shouldn't be made fair the way you're talking about it.

If the shoe was on the other foot, you'd worked extremely hard for many years and owned your own business that employed people at a rate you believed to be fair: would you still agree that wealthy people should be stripped of their money?

Would you fuck. You sound lazy and greedy, a nasty combination.

HOW do the rich do such things to the people?
It's perfectly legal. And the government helps too!

And how can you explain that some poor people become rich people by hard work, luck or whatever means available?
Intelligence and luck.

Third Decree:
No more rich people ... or poor people ... From now on, we will all be the same! Uh ... I don't know, I gotta think about that!

Deleted

I never understood just how much money effected my life until I noticed it was partly keeping me from forming relationships. When I see someone that's poor I instantly believe they'll just bring me down to their level if I associate with them, thus I keep away. The same goes for rich people, they don't associate with the average street people because they think it may somehow effect their monies.

What I'm starting to figure out is that by not seeing people as human instead of rating them by how much they make it hurts me more then them. Money has no real significance to how people will relate or what they'll find they enjoy doing together. In truth money is really only important if you want alot of things like a brand new car, a house, and vacations. With me I just live day-to-day and do what I can.

I felt so bad asking woman out or even talking to them because I don't make alot, but I feel more confident that besides money there is also humanity, and we can all share in that without fear of being ridiculed.

Deleted

There are people in this world that have millions and billions of dollars. Yet there is poverty on this planet. This is impractical. They should be stripped of their funds whic should be diverted to the poor.
So, the tyranny of the inept, incompetent, unmotivated and/or lazy is to forcibly enslave and rob from the ept, competent, motivated and/or industrious because there exists no other possible means by which the inept, incompetent, unmotivated and/or lazy can possibly become the equal of the ept, competent, motivated and/or industrious?

http://www.sciforums.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

This has nothing to dow ith signatures.

The fact is that the rich own you. They control you. You are a slave.


Ha, that's funny...you can be as poor as you want anf no one is going to care or start your own small business.

The thing is if you dont have cash, you just settle for ugly chicks.

I've been poor. When I was supporting a wife and kid and working my way thru college. I did yard work, worked at seven-eleven, worked at a factory, even worked for the government. Most of the time I had more than one job in addition to being a full time student.

What'd you get your degree(s) in?

Baron Max, I've got to ask: How do you keep your food budget at $2 per day?


I've been wondering the answer to this question myself I'm starting to toy around with th idea of how to actually do it.


I'm thinking maybe if a person bought food in 14 dollar intervals every two weeks (due to some of the stuff potentially being perishable).
If the person was able to obtain a bag of apples, and a bag of oranges, that will take care of breakfast for two weeks. Also buy a carton of eggs since they are cheap, and have a bunch of calories. Buy a bag of rice (million and one ways to cook rice). Meat will be the biggest problem since it's typically expensive--- perhaps buy a package of abyssmally cheap hot dogs, and break off tiny chunks in meals as the meat item. The person could buy a couple of cans of corn/peas, and stretch the ingredients over as many meals as possible.

I'll bet someone living this way would treat sales/coupons like they were sent from god.

Sounds healthy... :rolleyes:

:D

Baron Max, I've got to ask: How do you keep your food budget at $2 per day?

I'd say...

Bread, peanut butter, eggs, Old Fashion oatmeal (you know, the plain jane), cheap multivitamins, apples, oranges, rice, and the leaves off trees.

You are a servant. How pathetic. You serve serve and serve, and get paid crap. You do the actual work, and get paid shit. Meanwile, the rich don't have to do any of that nonsense, and make alot more money than that.

Shall we enact laws that prevent people from owning a company and being the boss? Should the janitor be paid just as much as the computer programmer? Hell, the programmer sits on his ass all day.

I thought you didn't believe in statistics?

I hate to agree with cool skill, but his "beliefs" about statisics has nothing to do with the answer.

I too would like CS to explain.

You spend an enormous amount of time doing hard work and labor just to bareley get paid minimum wage $6.15 per hour. Meanwhile rich people such celebrities don't do the least bit of work, and get tons of money.Seen any movies lately?

*Cha-ching*

~Raithere

What'd you get your degree(s) in?
BS in Biology which allowed me to work as a chemist at a factory and then {believe it or not} as an environmental scientist enforcing environmental regulations for the state of Indiana while my wife finished her degree in education. I did the environmental scientist deal for about six months, and decided it was not for me. Then I went back and got a doctor of Optometry Degree.

Can you explain that, Cool Skill? I mean, HOW do the rich do such things to the people?

And how can you explain that some poor people become rich people by hard work, luck or whatever means available? Many, many people start out poor and become rich in the USA, the statistics are available if you know where to look. So how is that possible if the rich own us, control us and enslave us?

Baron Max
Do you not know?
Take a pizza pie. A small amount of people get pretty much the whole pizza.
While remaining have to share a slice.

The very few people that have managed to break free of their poverty is no different from a slave attaining freedom. Nonetheless, the majority still have to do all the work, just to make enough money in order for the to stay alive, and do more work. It's not actual shackle slavery which is even worse.

Some peopel go to work with a suit and tie signifying their robotic obedience. They are not free, but dependent on their "jobs" for income.

Just because a few people have made it out of a terrible situation does not mean that others have not. In fact, there is no logical reason for them to have a terrible situation to make it out of in the first place. The state of the economy is not an accident. The rich ensure that desperation exists in order for there to be people desperate enough to work for the rich. Without desperation, it might not be too easy to get others to do labor for you.

Seen any movies lately?

*Cha-ching*

~Raithere
Fearless!
Jet Li.
I got it 2 days ago. It's not even in the theater yet.
Nice movie!

Nobody owes you shit, cool_skill. The sooner you get that into your head, the better.

Life isn't fair and no, it shouldn't be made fair the way you're talking about it.

If the shoe was on the other foot, you'd worked extremely hard for many years and owned your own business that employed people at a rate you believed to be fair: would you still agree that wealthy people should be stripped of their money?

Would you fuck. You sound lazy and greedy, a nasty combination.
It is easy to see you are not a reasonable individual.
Sounds like crab mentality.

The objective of course is to take back the money that the rich have molested away from the poor for so many years, and give it back to the poor.
Any ideas?

So, the tyranny of the inept, incompetent, unmotivated and/or lazy is to forcibly enslave and rob from the ept, competent, motivated and/or industrious because there exists no other possible means by which the inept, incompetent, unmotivated and/or lazy can possibly become the equal of the ept, competent, motivated and/or industrious?

http://www.sciforums.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif
The rich are the ones that are inept.
They are nothing but scumbags that such the resources of the earth using poor people as their vaccum cleaners.
What makes you think these rich assholes are in anyway competent for anything but destruction, ignorance, and stupidty?

Shall we enact laws that prevent people from owning a company and being the boss? Should the janitor be paid just as much as the computer programmer? Hell, the programmer sits on his ass all day.
Of course the Janitor should get paid more. Pay should be based on the desirability of the job. 2 equal individuals. 2 jobs available. Both individuals would probably desire the computer job over the janitor job. Now if we increase the pay of the janitor job really high, they both might want to take the janitor job over the computer job. Either way, the pay should depend on desirability of the job.

The problem is this backwards economy is not progressive, but operates in complete reverse to progress.Everybody should be so well educated that none of these computer jobs would be high in demand and low in supply. Instead, in a progressive city, at pay being equal, undesirable jobs need to get done, and are therefore high in demand. But there is so little of supply of people willing to do them. That is unless you increase the pay rate to meet the demand/supply phenominon. As the pay rate increases for the undesirable job such as the janitor, more people will be willing to go for it.

Of course pay being equal, it is important to ask which jobs less most undesirable, and therefore, increase the pay for such jobs.

Fearless!
Jet Li.
I got it 2 days ago. It's not even in the theater yet.
Nice movie!
Way to hypocritically buy into some disingenuous marketing ploy. You may have pirated the movie, but you still bought into the Hollywood image. You may be too much of a bum to be a wage slave, but you're still the brainchild of the illuminatus.

Oh, by the way, who are you surrendering your (parents') precious few dollars to for a fat-cat luxury like internet access? Tool. Hypocrite.

Way to hypocritically buy into some disingenuous marketing ploy. You may have pirated the movie, but you still bought into the Hollywood image. You may be too much of a bum to be a wage slave, but you're still the brainchild of the illuminatus.

Oh, by the way, who are you surrendering your (parents') precious few dollars to for a fat-cat luxury like internet access? Tool. Hypocrite.
The hypocrite is you. Retards still cannot understand logic on this forum
The state of cool skill is completely irrelevant. I could be the richest person on the planet or the poorest on the planet.
The facts still remain, and like normal idiots of the planet earth that I have no choice but to deal with, have no idea how to actually have a discussion addressing the facts at hand without veering away into either an ad hom attack, an appeal to an authority, appeal to what is commonly accepted. None of these appeals will ever render the information at hand t or f.

In fact there are some people in this forum and in rl that cannot escape teir primitve thinking. Everytime they are presented with information, without even considering anything, the first thing they do is focus on whoever is providing the info regardless of what the info is. It is not something they think about it is an automatic primitive reflex reaction. Some idiots just don't know how to think.

The hypocrite is you. Retards still cannot understand logic on this forum
The state of cool skill is completely irrelevant. I could be the richest person on the planet or the poorest on the planet.
In that you have been making moral judgments in this thread, and that your implicit assumption of infallibility is evident in your continual insistence on your own rightness and everyone else's wrongness, your own behaviors necessarily come into question. For if you are perfect and infallible, and yet your behavior contradicts your moral judgments, then your moral judgments, being tested by the example of a perfect being, must be wrong; and if your moral judgment is wrong, then you cannot possibly be infallible. You see, skill, by being a peabrained jack off, you invalidate both your argument and yourself. You're like the suicide squad: Attack the opponent by killing yourself.

Also, you are a little panty-wasting bitch who steals movies and lives in his mommy's basement. Does she buy your underwear, too? 'Cause if you wear that underwear, you're supporting the exploitation of the unimaginably impoverished Taiwanese five year olds who made it by the company (Victoria's Secret, right?) that sells it, making you all the more a disgusting pig.

cool skill:

The point is that for the most part the rich did not get rich by nefarious schemes but by providing something that other people are willing to pay them for. Presuming you occasionally see a movie in a theater or buy a DVD rather than pirating them you are willingly handing over your money... actively participating in a process that makes the rich richer and you poorer.

That actors, ball-players, and CEOs earn so much more than a teacher or a gardener says something about our societal values rather than something about the individuals.

~Raithere

The point is that for the most part the rich did not get rich by nefarious schemes but by providing something that other people are willing to pay them for.
This is not relevant.
This is about the way things are set up, and in effect how poor people feel about being poor.

What they did and how they got there is not the problem.
Hey, I am Joe Blow, and I did so and so, and got really rich. Now I live a rich and lavish life. I night even give some of my riches to charities. Yay for me.

The point is it appears that alot of poor people are unaware that they are slaves, and need to buy their freedom. They convince eachother to go out and get a job to be a productive member of society. They are nothing but servants of the rich. Their money does not work for them. They work for their money.
If you are poor doing dirt crap work for barely any pay, it is not even questionable that you are a bloody slave.

Now if you have an idiotic office jon, wear an idiotic suit, and act like an idiotic pleb, you are still a member of the working class. I have alot of respect for the actual hard laborer. These office jobbers are a different story. They are usually highschool or college edumacated retards that feel so great about going to some office to make sales or do some other idiotic duty. They are a flock of plebian dullards that think they are go getters because they made the top of their sales force. Woopy doo hoorah for you.


Presuming you occasionally see a movie in a theater or buy a DVD rather than pirating them you are willingly handing over your money... actively participating in a process that makes the rich richer and you poorer.

This has nothing to do with the issue, but I do my very absolute best not to purcase DVDs, CDs, or Software. I might have purchased less than a handful of DVDs in my lifetime. Mostly for xmas presents. I think I have purchased 1 video game in the last few years because of my absolte frustration spending hours and hours trying to get my downloaded file to work. I was so frustrated and PO, and it was taking up so much of my time that I just drove as far away as I could from the ghetto to find a video game store to buy a copy.
The most I do is rent a DVD every now and then, but of course, I always rip it directly into my hard drive. I might have purchased less than a handful of CDs since filesharing was invented.

When it comes to actual purchasing of DVDs, CDs, Software, and such. I hate those notes you get in the download that says, if you like this, go buy it in order to support the creators.

1. There is no point in purchasing something that I already got free.
2. It is completely ignorant to support these full profit rich retards. They are my enemy. My objective is to take their money, and use it to support the poor. Those notes are so bloody ignorant. All of my shared files have a note attatched saying whatever you do, do not purchase the product, and support these companies. Intead, support the filesharing community by sharing these assholes's media.



That actors, ball-players, and CEOs earn so much more than a teacher or a gardener says something about our societal values rather than something about the individuals.
It simply says alot about how totally disfunctional our society is. It is so damn parapalegic. I am pursuing an entertainment career, so I can make a ton money singing and dancing and acting. All knowing full well, that people should actually be paying to do this "work(fun)", much less getting paid to do it, much less getting paid a ton of money to do it. If these assholes of society want to pay artists to sing and dance and such, they might as well pay me the same way.

I guess the point is, I do not see people in poverty or doing all these slave jobs as intelligent when they do not consider themselves slaves. When a person has no choice but to use their time and effort for the profit of some enemy company, and get paid crap in return, they are slaves.

When I run out of money, and do time in whatever little odd job I can find to accumulate some ends, I know I am not doing so by choice, but because I have to. It is not something I desire to do. It is something I have no choice about. It is not something to be upset over, but in a way it is. The point is, at least acknowledge that you are a slave. Maybe I should not use the term slave because real slaves actually have shackles and get whipped. But it is a sort of slavery, and we should stop being docile morons and thanking these assholes for allowing us this great opportunity to serve them, and be intelligent by acknowledging the fact that we are being used for our time and effort for their profit. And further acknowledge that they are not our friends for doing this to us.

What makes you think these rich assholes are in anyway competent for anything but destruction, ignorance, and stupidty?
How many inept, incompetent, unmotivated and/or lazy employees do the inept, incompetent, unmotivated and/or lazy actually employ?

Make charitable contributions to?

Pay taxes for?

Are worth robbing by the inept, incompetent, unmotivated and/or lazy?

Why do the inept, incompetent, unmotivated and/or lazy consider the ept, competent, motivated and/or industrious to be assholes?

Because they aren't fellow inepts, incompetents, unmotivateds and/or lazies?

A day's work for a day's wage. The working class built this country and were rewarded by the pinkie fingered fatcats. Their jobs went to India and Honduras. America has a growing poor population. Good people with hardworking roots with no access to the trickle down wealth of corporate barons. What is wrong with American workers making a good wage? Cuts into pinkie finger profits. The ruling 1% see no difference between hard working citizens and slum dwellers in Bangalore. This elitism came back and bit them in the mid 20th century. With more & more citizens now holding low paying jobs or finding themselves unemployed at 45 it is apparent we are due for a 2nd lesson. All it takes is a health problem and a layoff and a citizen can join the poor too.

Why must a person only rent themselves to their masters?

Why shouldn't a person be their own master?

If you can't provide for yourself, why should anyone else have to suffer your burden and their own, too?

Just because you exist in fact doesn't mean the rest of us have to support your sorry ass when you can't support any of us in return, let alone yourself.

Why must a person only rent themselves to their masters?

Why shouldn't a person be their own master?

If you can't provide for yourself, why should anyone else have to suffer your burden and their own, too?

Just because you exist in fact doesn't mean the rest of us have to support your sorry ass when you can't support any of us in return, let alone yourself.Why do you assume I am incapable of providing for myself? Do you think so lowly of the American worker? Am I not my own master? Whom is suffering because I make 30k per year? I think you are confusing the 3% that abuse the social safety net with the rest of working America. That net keeps our poor from being like Africa's poor. I would rather my taxes go to better American workers than to destroy 3rd world countries, collect rocks on Mars or bail out a corrupt corporation.

Why do you assume I am incapable of providing for myself? Do you think so lowly of the American worker? Am I not my own master? Whom is suffering because I make 30k per year? I think you are confusing the 3% that abuse the social safety net with the rest of working America. That net keeps our poor from being like Africa's poor. I would rather my taxes go to better American workers than to destroy 3rd world countries, collect rocks on Mars or bail out a corrupt corporation.

It's not so bad, theres unemployment benefits, WIC for the poor, social security, hospitalization for the poor. midicaid etc. etc. By and large being poor is being invisible....but the American govt. doesn't round up the poor and persecute them, they say "come on in, it's not paradise but it's better than where you left".

Could you imagine the millions of poor immigrant's coming to U.S yearly, weather legal or not would go into Canada or a country in Europe instead?

Why do you assume I am incapable of providing for myself? Do you think so lowly of the American worker? Am I not my own master? Whom is suffering because I make 30k per year? I think you are confusing the 3% that abuse the social safety net with the rest of working America. That net keeps our poor from being like Africa's poor. I would rather my taxes go to better American workers than to destroy 3rd world countries, collect rocks on Mars or bail out a corrupt corporation.
30K is a wage, not an owner's shareholder distribution.

You're a well-paid drone employee, not an employer.

A teet sucker, not a teet provider.

30K is a wage, not an owner's shareholder distribution.

You're a well-paid drone employee, not an employer.

A teet sucker, not a teet provider.
And I am proud to be a worker. I'm good at what I do, pay taxes and keep a clean home. I enjoy a vacation once a year and can afford to have a few amenities as well. To sink to the level of a parasite, sucking wealth out of the labor of others would be against my own personal moral code. You celebrate the parasite class, I celebrate the majority that built this nation. Do you spit on construction workers? Laugh at waitresses? All this from someone nowhere close to being a member of the pinkie fingers brigade. A wannabe capitalist. I hope you are young. Otherwise you really are in for a lonely, sad life of hating those that made everything you touch.

Sure. Cry yourself to sleep.

Dream of Robin Hood.

Wake up and go to work tomorrow for someone else.

Tell us you're your own master.

The point is it appears that alot of poor people are unaware that they are slaves, and need to buy their freedom. They convince eachother to go out and get a job to be a productive member of society. They are nothing but servants of the rich. An issue of attitude, not position. Admittedly the system is not perfect and there are barriers to mobility that would ideally be eliminated. But slavery? I disagree.

My objective is to take their money, and use it to support the poor. Right. :rolleyes: As if you take all the money you save by stealing the fruit of other peoples labor and donate it to the poor. Sorry, but you're full of it. How is your attitude in any way different than the "Rich" who profit from the labor of poor?

It simply says alot about how totally disfunctional our society is. It is so damn parapalegic. I am pursuing an entertainment career, so I can make a ton money singing and dancing and acting. All knowing full well, that people should actually be paying to do this "work(fun)", much less getting paid to do it, much less getting paid a ton of money to do it. If these assholes of society want to pay artists to sing and dance and such, they might as well pay me the same way. I find it ironic that you exhibit the same values that cause the problem you decry.

"Fuck 'em, just as long as I make a buck."

Face it, you're the problem not the solution.

~Raithere

What is wrong with American workers making a good wage? Someone else is willing to do it cheaper.

The ruling 1% see no difference between hard working citizens and slum dwellers in Bangalore. Sure they do. The slum dweller will work harder and longer for less money. Thus reducing the production cost.

~Raithere

How many inept, incompetent, unmotivated and/or lazy employees do the inept, incompetent, unmotivated and/or lazy actually

employ?

Make charitable contributions to?

Pay taxes for?

Are worth robbing by the inept, incompetent, unmotivated and/or lazy?

Why do the inept, incompetent, unmotivated and/or lazy consider the ept, competent, motivated and/or industrious to be assholes?

Because they aren't fellow inepts, incompetents, unmotivateds and/or lazies?
This changes nothing. Either you are rich, or you are working for the rich. The rich are inept and incompetent. Those with money in power

have not the slightest bit of competence whatsoever. They are all complete morons running amuck with their riches like idiots. Competence

describes an individual that actually knows that they are doing, and can be relied upon for proper service. The rich are the most

unreliable dunces on the planet. Choose to consider them competent if you will. they are absolutely inept. I have a better idea. How

about stripping these incompetent idiots of their wealth before they heart more people, and throw them in the trash where they belong?


A day's work for a day's wage. The working class built this country and were rewarded by the pinkie fingered fatcats.

Their jobs went to India and Honduras.
Who gives a crap about jobs going anywhere as if Americans have the right to these jobs. That fact that they want them in the first place

shows what idiotic slaves they are. Why the hell would you want a "job"? So you can serve your master like the idiot you are? Oh master,

I want to be your slave. Please don't let people in India do the work. I want to do it because I am a total loser.


Why must a person only rent themselves to their masters?

Why shouldn't a person be their own master?

If you can't provide for yourself, why should anyone else have to suffer your burden and their own, too?

Just because you exist in fact doesn't mean the rest of us have to support your sorry ass when you can't support any of us in return, let

alone yourself.
Slave mentality. Crab mentality. It is unecessary for any individual in a functioning society under a functioing institution to support

themselves. The only way to support yourself is to go live in the woods, wear some fig leaves, and eat worms and berries for lunch. And

if somebody tries to join you, throw them out so that you can be a hard working independent idiot.

Meanwhile, the point of a functioning institution is to provide for the individual. In order for an institution to remain functioning

well, it requires a certain amount of individuals to put in the labor. Those that do the labor should be compensated properly for their

efforts so that they have the desire to take up the work.

America is not a functioning institution. It is a disfunctional institution. It does not support the individual. It supports the rich.

Those that do the labor to support the rich are not properly compensated. Ergo, we see an ever increasing amount of financial

stratification. that is how bloody incompetent the rich are. That is how bloody incompentent the people are for thinking they have an

ethical right to any of these jobs going over seas, and even moreso incompetent for desiring them.


Do you think so lowly of the American worker?
Yes!!!!
This is so lowly and pathetic it is not even funny.
You actually believe that whoring yourself is so great, and you would rather your taxes go help the rich and corrupt than humans

regardless of who they are simply because no human deserves to live in crappy conditions.
This is the player hate attitude of "If I have to work, he should have to also". Total slave mentality. Why are you so proud to be a

pathetic servant? Because you make 30k per year? Woopty doo. You are still a servant. You are still a member of the working class. Go and

work for your money. Work work work because that is all you are good for. You are the epitome of pathetic.
Americans do not have an ethical right to these jobs. The fact that you even desire these jobs goes to show what a servant you are.
Do I think of you so lowly? I would rather not, but you think yourself as so lowly. It is you that desire these pathetic jobs. It is you that would claim you are your own master simply because you are not abusing the system, and the system is abusing you. It is you that have a problem with this 3% random statistic you threw out. If you are not talking about the rich, then there is nothing wrong with these 3% taking advantage of the system in order to sap the money for the rich so that it can be used for what it is meant for. To support the average individual regardless of socials stature.


And I am proud to be a worker. I'm good at what I do, pay taxes and keep a clean home. I enjoy a vacation once a year and can afford to have a few amenities as well. To sink to the level of a parasite, sucking wealth out of the labor of others would be against my own personal moral code. You celebrate the parasite class, I celebrate the majority that built this nation. Do you spit on construction workers? Laugh at waitresses? All this from someone nowhere close to being a member of the pinkie fingers brigade. A wannabe capitalist. I hope you are young. Otherwise you really are in for a lonely, sad life of hating those that made everything you touch.
The parasite are the rich. The point is to suck the wealth out of the rich. I would rather see tax money going first and formost to support people. The only leeches in society are the rich. There is no such thing as a poor person that is leeching off of society. Oh he's not working, but getting social benefits and welfare. Taxes are meant to help people. Not everybody has to work.

I don's spit on the labor class such as construction workers and stuff. I spit on the office workeers and the assholes that have a problem with poor people getting benefits without regard to whether they are working or not. Everybody has a right to such benefits, and should not be looked at any differently whether they are a slave like you or an individual that chooses not to work for these rich incompentent morons.


What you are talking about simply defies logic:
1. Why are you so proud of being a servant? If you would like to use the word worker, it is the same thing. Why?
2. What makes you think you are capable of supporting yourself or that you should be supporting yourself? Do you plan to go to the forest and live away from society so that you can support yourself?
3. As an example of an individual with nothing. Should not all humans be provided for regardless of whether or not they partake in the nonsense labors that you partake in?

An issue of attitude, not position. Admittedly the system is not perfect and there are barriers to mobility that would ideally be eliminated. But slavery? I disagree.

Right. :rolleyes: As if you take all the money you save by stealing the fruit of other peoples labor and donate it to the poor. Sorry, but you're full of it. How is your attitude in any way different than the "Rich" who profit from the labor of poor?

I find it ironic that you exhibit the same values that cause the problem you decry.

"Fuck 'em, just as long as I make a buck."

Face it, you're the problem not the solution.

~Raithere
The problem is you.
1. Slavery is just a term. It is not actual slavery in shackles, but it is hardly different. When you as a slave (or whatever you want to call it) have no choice. You have to work for the rich. If you do not, you cannot have the income of a decent life. I consider the US no different than a third world country. It might be more advanced than other countries, but it is not more advanced than the true first world country that modern civilization has yet to attain. Compared to the true first world country, the United States is a hell hole, and the rest of the 3rd world countries on the planet even worse.

2. What fruit of others labor are you talking about? I made a statement about taking the money back from the rich who molested it out of the poor, and use it to provide for the poor. Do you not know english?

3. You are a load of ad hom that has yet to address any actual point.

For the sake of those that do not seem to comprehend reality:
Are you part of the top 1% rich people? I sure as hell am not. Do you believe these top 1% are in anyway competent? I sure as hell do not. Do you think America is really a first world country? Compared to other countries on this planet it is. You morons, and civilization as a whole have yet to taste a truly decent functioning first world civilization.

The institute of the true first world civilization first and formost has a far higher standard of living for every class. This standard is currently only available to the rich and especially not some idiot that thinks he is supporting himself making 30k a year so he can live his average life that he believes to be first world. Furthermore, the institute of the true first world is set up to decrease the amount of stratification or keep it level. There is little or no financial separation between any individual of any profession. Furthermore, the institute of the true first world allows all inhabitants truly equal protection under law. It does not allow 2 people to get 2 different levels of treatment/punishment for commiting the same crime. The life of a true first world knows little of petty indulgence and the health problems Americans are faced with because of them. Individuals in a true first world country enjoy a high level of intellect, personal health, witness seamless accelleration in technology for increasingly better lifestyles. The true first world country makes the USA look like the dumpster that it is. Eat that.

Are the terms 1st World, 2nd World, 3rd World still valid any more? And whats is a developing country? Is America no longer developing?

Are you part of the top 1% rich people? I sure as hell am not. Do you believe these top 1% are in anyway competent? I sure as hell do not.

Ye're entitled to your opinion, but that doesn't make it any more correct.

And isn't it great that you're free enough to make such statements? In many nations of the world, you wouldn't be permitted to say such things.

The true first world country makes the USA look like the dumpster that it is. Eat that.

Hmm, yeah ....and the first true galaxy in the universe will make the true first world country look like a dumpster, too. Now just what do you suppose either of those two statements mean? And what does it matter? What does it change?

Just saying things does NOT make them true or valid.

Baron Max

And isn't it great that you're free enough to make such statements? In many nations of the world, you wouldn't be permitted to say such things.
And yet it drives you mad that he said such things.

Just saying things does NOT make them true or valid.

Obviously, but unless you counter the point how do people make up their minds about anything? Just saying things are not true does NOT make them invalid either.

What first true galaxy?
Nobody ever said saying a statement makes it true. A statement is true based on its validity.

Furthermore, I find it great to be free enough to make certain statements. But that does not mean I am going to fool myself into believing I am free, and not living in a substandard lifestyle because I have a 30k-50k salary per year. I am not going to sit there, take such crap, under the belief that being a hard working tax paying idiot makes me anything more than a drone for the rich.

When the rich are incompetent, it is up to others to take them down, and replace them.

Mr. G has this attitude that the rich are competent, and the poor are lazy inept incompetent people. Genji despises people that scam the government out of their money so they do not have to pay taxes, and taxes pay them.

I created a thread a few weeks ago trying to pinpoint the basis of this exact type of mentality.
http://sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=57514

I want to know more about it and understand it because I know people that think the rich are so great, and the poor are apathetic losers. These people seem to be gold diggers, but I want to understand more about their strange logic.

1. Why do the worship the rich as if the rich are in anyway competent?
2. Why do they hate the poor so much?
3. Why are they so upset at seeing tax money go to exactly where it should be going? Straight to the poor people so they do not have to work.

This country operates in plain reverse to progress, thereby destroying the earth, and eradicating many animals that now how to be under the support of humans in order to prevent extinction.

This reverse operation is this:
The poor serve the rich.

Some may not think anything of this, but the absurdity jumps out at me glaringly. I have less than you. You have more than me. And I am giving to you? This is how our economy operates. It only makes total sense that if I have more, I will be the one serving those with less.

Then there is this totally manipulated slave mentality. We need more jobs. We need to create more jobs. You dumb fucks, the point is to have less jobs. The point of technology is to do the work for us so we do not have to do it. The better technology we have, the less work we have to do to support the True First World Lifestyle. The unemployment rate is going up. Oh boo hoo. Who cares? Why the hell are we sop stupid enough to even think in terms of unemployment.

for example:
Consider city X. City X has population Y. There are Z amount of jobs within city X that need to addressed in order for City X to support its population with a first world lifestyle. The Z amount of jobs remain static for the most part with little change. As long as these jobs are fulfilled, the rest of the population is does not need to work. (The term "unemployment" is used to mean a bad thing. Oh no I am a slave, and I am not being put to work. We need more jobs.) The best thing is this: As technology increases, the Z amount decreases. The more technology we have, the less jobs are needed to support population Y within city X.

Now we shall use 0 pay as the base salary for every job. The pay will be raised depending on how many people are willing to do the job. The less desirable the job. The more we have to raise the pay rate to get somebody to do it.

There should be no tolerance for those that use a person's lack of education against them. Oh this person lacks the education. Therefore, I can get him to do a job for alot less than an educated person would ask to do this job.

1. Slavery is just a term. It is not actual slavery in shackles, but it is hardly different. When you as a slave (or whatever you want to call it) have no choice. You have to work for the rich. If you do not, you cannot have the income of a decent life. There are numerous ways of making a living that do not involve "working for the rich". Employee-owned companies for instance, which IMO can be an almost ideal model:
http://www.nceo.org/culture/index.html
http://www.nceo.org/library/eo100.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employee-owned_corporation

Although there's more risk, you can also explore entrepreneurship:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entrepreneurship
http://sba.gov/

I consider the US no different than a third world country. It might be more advanced than other countries, but it is not more advanced than the true first world country that modern civilization has yet to attain. Compared to the true first world country, the United States is a hell hole, and the rest of the 3rd world countries on the planet even worse. I applaud your idealism. A young man should be idealistic. But idealism rarely resolves any problems.

What fruit of others labor are you talking about? I made a statement about taking the money back from the rich who molested it out of the poor, and use it to provide for the poor. Do you not know english? Better than you judging from your grammar and syntax but that's beside the point.

The fruit in this particular instance is the DVD or video game. While you may bemoan the presumably unbalanced economic distribution of the corporation that produced them the fact remains that many people contribute to such a product and when you steal from the corporation you are also stealing from those who are not "rich" but laboring to make a living.

3. You are a load of ad hom that has yet to address any actual point. I've yet to deliver an ad hominem attack. I'm not saying that your argument is wrong because of something about you, I'm giving you a personalized example of how you argument is not entirely sound. You assert that the rich are molesting the poor but the example shows how your own willing participation contributes to the "problem".

What you may want to consider is that the problem is not quite as simple or clear as you attempt to maintain. Platitudes such as "corporations are bad" and "the rich take from the poor" do not accurately describe reality and therefore do nothing to resolve real problems; they are meaningless rhetoric and serve only political motives.

~Raithere

But idealism rarely resolves any problems.
What you consider to be impractical idealism that does not solve any problems is actually true realism. It is true realism known to the commoner in a negative connotation as "idealism" that has brought about any progress in history. It is true realism and only true realism that sustains the fabric of everything. The true realists (often called idealists) that created the United States and challenged the impractical standard of fallacy.

You cannot bring about progress without knowing the objective. The objective no doubt is an increasingly higher standard living for all, and even such as I have described to be the true First World.

Unfortunately, the fakists that live under deception and limitation have no regard for actual practical progress. What is in front of them at face value is all they will ever know, all they will ever have, and all they will ever be. It is all they will operate of because it is all that they understand. Therefore, it leads to destruction. It is the backbone epitome of a collapsing society. You always hear such people say:
"I am a realist"
"I am just being realistic."
When in fact they have no idea what reality is. Nor do they operate with any basis in reality.

when you steal from the corporation you are also stealing from those who are not "rich" but laboring to make a living.
Good nothing makes me happier than robbing the rich as well as the assholes that support them like drones. They support the rich with their labor. They support the rich by buying their products. They work for the rich in everyway. They despise the poor. Well we despise them. I have no respect for any of these idiots.

I respect those that do actual labor work, and deserve all the money that these leeches have taken. They should be stripped of the fruits of their stupidity so that the poor may be truly compensated for the real labor that they put in.

"the rich take from the poor" do not accurately describe reality and therefore do nothing to resolve real problems; they are meaningless rhetoric and serve only political motives.
Wrong. They server no other motives than taking the money back from these asshole leeches so that the poor can be properly provided for and people that actually do labor can be compensated for hard work.

cool skill:

Thank you for exemplifying my points.
It eliminates the need for me to do so myself.

~Raithere

I applaud your idealism. A young man should be idealistic.
This is a snide adhom character attack.
It's a character invalidation used insidiously with no effect on the topic at hand.


Thank you for exemplifying my points.
It eliminates the need for me to do so myself.
If the point is the take back the wealth from the rich, and give it back to the poor who deserve it, I have clearly exemplified them.


I have come accross many people that have no basis of intellect, and focus 100% on character with zero focus on the facts at hand. Political inteintions or alterior intentions have nothing to do with the facts presented.
X is a fact whether or not my intention for stating the fact is for personal gain or not. Try focusing on topic or get lost.

This is a snide adhom character attack.
It's a character invalidation used insidiously with no effect on the topic at hand. Not in the least. I meant it quite sincerely.

Idealists energize progress, something which we dearly need. The problem is that ideals are rarely attainable. Humans are not perfect and as a consequence no system invented, administered, or applied by humans can be perfect. More or less is about as good as we can expect... but doesn't mean we shouldn't keep trying to improve things.

If the point is the take back the wealth from the rich, and give it back to the poor who deserve it, I have clearly exemplified them. No, I meant my points but never mind. A better question for you is; how would you go about correcting the imbalance?

~Raithere

A better question for you is; how would you go about correcting the imbalance?

Oh, so easy! He can just "idealize" right over any of those problems and imbalances! The great thing about idealism is that it can simply ignore any problems by just saying so! ...LOL!

Baron Max

not true. when my brother was working for his old engineering firm, they were charging $40 an hour for his labour, and paying him just over the minimum wage of $9.15 at the time. that other $30 goes into the pocket of the owner. the rich leech from the labour of the workers.

Obviously from an individual who doesn't understand the first thing about business.

You see, businesses have huge costs. To employ someone for instance, for $9.15 per hour costs at least probably $15 per hour, just in straight cost for taxes, disability insurance or whatever, etc. That's a pretty conservative estimate as well, and it's only the beginning of the costs the business undertakes. If they've really got their shit together, they maybe profit $10/hr for his work, but I doubt it, then again who knows.

Then there is the consideration as follows: Could your brother have generated the opportunity to do the work for $40 an hour without the employer? Would have have the means to do it if he could arrange the opportunity? Would he be able to generate another opportunity once he was finished with the one he generated?

If the answers to all three are yes, then the possibility exists for him to do it without the business he works for... maybe, depending on the scope of the job of course. For instance, if the job takes 10 guys to do, each working on their own part... how could he generate the opportunity without assuming the responsibility of owning a business, and the severe headaches that come with it.

Of course it's much easier to make stupid assumptions from socialist dogma than to actually consider why thinks work as they do. Of course "the man" is fucking him and couldn't possible pay him the fair wage he chose to accept. He had no choice but to take that particular job from that particular company, and bend right over.

There are people in this world that have millions and billions of dollars. Yet there is poverty on this planet. This is impractical. They should be stripped of their funds whic should be diverted to the poor.

Lol.

Yeah that will solve all the problems.

You see, rich people are rich for a reason.

Try your experiment and 6 months later everything is back the way it was before you started, though surely some of the names would change of who had the money.

Idealists energize progress, something which we dearly need. The problem is that ideals are rarely attainable.
It's possible if you work very hard. The problem is that most idealists are innovators and, as innovators, they are good at creating something but they have a very hard time making it happen. They need to go through great challenges before they can realize their ideals. It takes a lot of sweat... :eek:

Humans are not perfect and as a consequence no system invented, administered, or applied by humans can be perfect. More or less is about as good as we can expect... but doesn't mean we shouldn't keep trying to improve things.
True...

A better question for you is; how would you go about correcting the imbalance?
I spent 10 years thinking about that, and I still don't have the answer. I might be seeing some light in the end of the tunnel, but... who knows... :eek:

This is not true.

What a convincing argument.

No, I meant my points but never mind. A better question for you is; how would you go about correcting the imbalance?
The same as I said. Blowing up the rich that have been riding on the backs of the poor for so long, and taking back what belongs to the people.


You see, rich people are rich for a reason.
Yes. Ineffective disfunctional super flawed system of destruction.


Simple situation.

There is the individual.
There is the system.

The individual devises the best plan to get as much possible from the system. Any means necessary. Use the flaws and holes. Create flaws and holes. Manipulate. Do anything, and you get this:
Individual<------------------------------SYSTEM

The individual has managed to exploit the cracks and use their intelligence to profit.


It is virtually impossibe to create a fool proof system that can prevent this situation from occurring. As long as an individual has the will and drive, they can achieve anything. But there are methods of minimizing and preventing such situations from occurring. The more progressive and functional the system (naturally meaning the less flaws there are), the less likely such situations can occurr. There is a road to the fool proof ideal which does not exist in reality. But it can be pursued and approached as close as possible.

Our current system is very very very very primitive in that it is totally flawed from the ground up. Very few aspects of our current system should even be considered in the development of an advanced progressive system which protects human right and the environment in a true first world high standard of living for all.

It's possible if you work very hard. The problem is that most idealists are innovators and, as innovators, they are good at creating something but they have a very hard time making it happen. They need to go through great challenges before they can realize their ideals. It takes a lot of sweat... Make sure you're differentiating between ideas and ideals.

Innovation is wonderful but it never matches the ideal. The ideal watch for instance would be 100% accurate and run forever requiring no repairs or battery replacements. The reality is that no matter how hard we work to make it perfectly the Universe is not a place that allows such perfection. At the very least we have to account for friction and inertia.

Socio-economic systems are no different; in fact they are far more complex. For any change you want to make has repercussions you will need to account for.

Let's take CS's example for instance. He wants to balance things out by taking money away from the rich and giving it to the poor. Fine, let's take Bill Gates, the richest man in the world. We'll take all his money away except for $100k and a $100k salary. But where is Bill's wealth? It's primarily tied up in Microsoft. Fine so we take his MS stock away from him. Now we have several billion $ worth of stock which we will sell and give the proceeds to the poor. But to whom will we sell it? If we sell that much on the market the stock value will crash, so we'll never be able to get the current value, plus we just gave a bit financial hit to all those invested in MS (don't forget all those retirees' 401k and Money Market accounts). Or we can make the company buy it back. But then MS goes out of business because we've bankrupted it and we can add a long list of former MS employees to the bread lines. But we do it anyway (or some combination) and give the proceeds to the poor. They, in turn, buy food, clothing, and shelter from whom? More corporations. So now we've just made a bunch of other people rich. So we take their money away....

Do you begin to see the problem?

~Raithere

It's a huge problem. Namely land ownership versus environmental reforestation. The reforestation era will eventually come. It's just a matter of pissing off land owners by having our land taken away from us for the sake of the reforestation program.

Make sure you're differentiating between ideas and ideals.
Of course I am.

Innovation is wonderful but it never matches the ideal. The ideal watch for instance would be 100% accurate and run forever requiring no repairs or battery replacements. The reality is that no matter how hard we work to make it perfectly the Universe is not a place that allows such perfection. At the very least we have to account for friction and inertia.
Who said it needs to be perfect? It's a matter of improving and maximizing benefits. Doesn't need to be 100% perfect. It can simply be as perfect as possible!

Socio-economic systems are no different; in fact they are far more complex. For any change you want to make has repercussions you will need to account for.

Let's take CS's example for instance. He wants to balance things out by taking money away from the rich and giving it to the poor. Fine, let's take Bill Gates, the richest man in the world. We'll take all his money away except for $100k and a $100k salary. But where is Bill's wealth? It's primarily tied up in Microsoft. Fine so we take his MS stock away from him. Now we have several billion $ worth of stock which we will sell and give the proceeds to the poor. But to whom will we sell it? If we sell that much on the market the stock value will crash, so we'll never be able to get the current value, plus we just gave a bit financial hit to all those invested in MS (don't forget all those retirees' 401k and Money Market accounts). Or we can make the company buy it back. But then MS goes out of business because we've bankrupted it and we can add a long list of former MS employees to the bread lines. But we do it anyway (or some combination) and give the proceeds to the poor. They, in turn, buy food, clothing, and shelter from whom? More corporations. So now we've just made a bunch of other people rich. So we take their money away....

Do you begin to see the problem?

~Raithere
Yes, I know. I know CS was able to identify the problem, but his explanations ofr a solution are very simplistic and they just come directly from the problem...

Sure. Cry yourself to sleep.

Dream of Robin Hood.

Wake up and go to work tomorrow for someone else.

Tell us you're your own master.No tears on my end. I work for a living and I'm proud of it. Like most humans.

No tears on my end. I work for a living and I'm proud of it. Like most humans.
Why?

Why?I don't see the curse of working for your bread & beer. Is Donnie Trump something to aspire to?? I think not. The ruling 1% are parasites, worms feeding on the accomplishments of others. Uncalloused hands are a sure sign of an uber pussy. I am proud to not be one of them.

But you work for them.
Your time and effort is being used by the rich. You are a victim of exploitation. You serve your boss. You get paid for it whatever. The fact is, you are still a servant.
No I would not say Don Trump is something to aspire to. But what you are doing is something I would most definitely not aspire to, much less be proud of. You might not be a pussy or whatever dergatory term you direct at people, but you are still a servant. Why would you want this for yourself? What is so great about being in a position of such servitude? Is this not pathetic?

But you work for them.
Your time and effort is being used by the rich. You are a victim of exploitation. You serve your boss. You get paid for it whatever. The fact is, you are still a servant.
No I would not say Don Trump is something to aspire to. But what you are doing is something I would most definitely not aspire to, much less be proud of. You might not be a pussy or whatever dergatory term you direct at people, but you are still a servant. Why would you want this for yourself? What is so great about being in a position of such servitude? Is this not pathetic?In a perfect world my labor would depend on the community's needs. If we needed health clinics I would be helping with that. If we needed a new school or bridge I would join in that. But in rightwing Christian America it's all about profit for a few. War on the world, for profit and divisiveness. Deriding and classing people because they aren't millionaires is a fave past time now. So I consider myself lucky to have a job that pays rent and a car that runs because that may be too much for a regular citizen soon.

The individual has managed to exploit the cracks and use their intelligence to profit.

It is virtually impossibe to create a fool proof system that can prevent this situation from occurring. As long as an individual has the will and drive, they can achieve anything. But there are methods of minimizing and preventing such situations from occurring. The more progressive and functional the system (naturally meaning the less flaws there are), the less likely such situations can occurr. There is a road to the fool proof ideal which does not exist in reality. But it can be pursued and approached as close as possible.

Our current system is very very very very primitive in that it is totally flawed from the ground up. Very few aspects of our current system should even be considered in the development of an advanced progressive system which protects human right and the environment in a true first world high standard of living for all. The problem I see here is that seeking advantage is very much a part of human nature. Heck it's intrinsic to all animals. Which seems to leave you with two options; either change human nature or create a rigidly ordered society. The first seems inherently dangerous because this tendency is related to the instinct of survival, the second crushes freedom and invites rebellion. So while it's a nice idea, a society that prevents the exploitation of others and the ecology, the question remains how?

~Raithere

It's a huge problem. Namely land ownership versus environmental reforestation. The reforestation era will eventually come. It's just a matter of pissing off land owners by having our land taken away from us for the sake of the reforestation program. Reforestation is a different issue. The main problem here is that rainforests, counter intuitively, make very poor farmland. So the farmers slash-and-burn, slash-and-burn, in a constantly advancing destruction of the rainforest in search of fertile soil when the land in use gives out. Luckily we don't have this problem in Northern America.

~Raithere

In a perfect world my labor would depend on the community's needs. If we needed health clinics I would be helping with that. If we needed a new school or bridge I would join in that. But in rightwing Christian America it's all about profit for a few. War on the world, for profit and divisiveness. Deriding and classing people because they aren't millionaires is a fave past time now. So I consider myself lucky to have a job that pays rent and a car that runs because that may be too much for a regular citizen soon.
So who would decide what the community needs in your perfect world? Some dictator? He says jump, you say how high, or its off to the death camp?? That's been tryed. It didn't work so well.

On the other hand, in a capitalist society, the communities needs are served by suppy and demand. No demand is long unserved when there's money to be made. We have salad shooters, IPOD's, everything you could ever want. In your perfect world, the people stand in line in forlorn hope that there will still be some bread left when their turn comes.

When Nikita Khrushchev toured the US, he visited some US supermarkets and assumed we had shipped in extra produce to those particular stores to impress him. We didn't. He didn't believe it. The capitalist system is so much more effective, there's no comparison. Communism is nothing but a path to poverty and misery for everyone except the dictator and his cronies.

The problem I see here is that seeking advantage is very much a part of human nature

You cannot use the "human nature" fallacy as an argument. It has not basis in logic. Nor does it have anything to do with what anybody is talking about. Whenever people are trying to have a normal discussion, some daft nut throws out the human nature statement. "Human nature!" I win. There is only one aspect of human nature, and that is free will. Even free will is debatable.

The point is, the human nature fallacy is the most idiotic regurgetated bit of nonesense. I have addressed the human nature fallacy so many times on this forum, and people still seem to resurface it. It's a closed issue. It is irrelevant. Nobody gives a crap about it because nobody gives a crap about pseudoscientific idioticy. I would not even categorize it as pseudoscience.
It is a cultural face value fallacy. It has been repeated over and over throughout society as if it has any meaning. It does not.

Your human nature argument is just as much a pile of garbage as anybody that uses it to try to prove anything.




In fact, it is not only I that believes this. I just found out it is an actual traditional fallacy:
"Appeal to nature (the natural law fallacy): Arguing that, because human beings are products of the natural world, we must mimic behavior seen in the natural world, and that to do otherwise is 'unnatural'. A common fallacy in political arguments."
http://www.ship.edu/~cgboeree/fallacies.html


I still do not understand how idiots could even consider the "human nature" fallacy as an argument for anything. It makes absolutely no sense, and follows absolutely no logic. I always always always see moronic statements such as :
"Hey, you are forgetting about human nature."
or
"It would work except for one problem. Human nature."

This is so STUPID!!!!
No I am not forgetting about human nature. I don't give a crap about human nature. Human nature can kiss my natural ass. Try coming up with a better argument because as soon as I see the term "human nature" used in an argument, I throw up at the enormous stupidity.

Luckily we don't have this problem in Northern America.
????
WTF!!!!
Of course we have this problem in North America.
Wolverines.
Wolves.
These are just 2 of the dozens of N American animals on the verge of extinction. What the hell are you talkin about? Are you that much of an ignorant dullard?

Yargh. Your own argument has no basis in logic, either. The term "basis in logic" is a pretty weak one to begin with; only rationalistic arguments are "based in logic," and pretty much nothing scientific is rationalistic because science has an empirical nature.

And your own "logical" argument is unbelievably weak. Can you even rationally prove the existence of free will, much less prove it is the only aspect of human nature? Remember, you cannot use example. Reason only! Your argument must have a basis in LOGIC.

Please make sure you use the above words without understanding what they mean; consistency of character is of the utmost importance when you are perfect like cool skill.

In a perfect world my labor would depend on the community's needs. If we needed health clinics I would be helping with that. If we needed a new school or bridge I would join in that. But in rightwing Christian America it's all about profit for a few. War on the world, for profit and divisiveness. Deriding and classing people because they aren't millionaires is a fave past time now. So I consider myself lucky to have a job that pays rent and a car that runs because that may be too much for a regular citizen soon.
It is not a fave past time to deride people. It is an attitude as if you are better than the people that are scamming the tax money. At least they are rightfully taking it instead of whoring themselves to some job.

Yes I am saying it is good to be thankful for what you have. You can pay your bills and have a working car.
As for 30K a year, I would rather take it from the system that I despise than mindlessly work for it to "earn" it like a good little slave.

I have far more respect for those that scam system I hate out of its money than I do for those that think they are better because they work for their money.


The capitalist system is so much more effective.
Capitalism is ineffective. Look around. Oh wait it is effective for the rich. Do you actually think you are anything other than a lapdog for the rich?

I am rich. I am enormously wealthy, in fact.
I have eighteen dollars currently.

Try to figure that one out.

Capitalism is ineffective. Look around. Oh wait it is effective for the rich. Do you actually think you are anything other than a lapdog for the rich?
Compared to what? Capitalist countries are far richer, across the board, then communist countries. There is no contest.

PS At what income level does one stop being a lapdog?

Yes, I know. I know CS was able to identify the problem, but his explanations ofr a solution are very simplistic and they just come directly from the problem... Actually, no, the problem hasn't been identified. Because the problem isn't that there are poor people (i.e. people with little or no money).

Instead there are two problems. First, why are there people who do not have the essentials for a healthy life (food, shelter, medical care, security)? Second, why do socio-economic systems stratify and create barriers to mobility (why do the poor stay poor)?

The problems are extremely complex. And I'm certainly not expert enough to describe the issues in full much less offer a perfect solution. But I'll see if I can provide some thoughts to help clarify the issues. We'll start off with CS's favorite...

One, corporations and rich people are not the problem. The concept behind this accusation is that what one has another has not... but this idea is wrong as it pertains to money. Remember, with few exceptions we are no longer dealing with commodity money but with market driven fiat currency.

This means that the amount of money available is not static but is a product of market forces. That one person has a lot of money does not necessarily diminish the amount of currency available to the rest. This effect is further reduced by the fact that most rich people have the majority of their holdings in stocks and banks which return the invested capital directly back into the market and can even increase the amount of available capital.

Massive wealth, therefore, is primarily held in the form of various contractual agreements and not as a hoarding of a limited commodity. Bill Gates does not consume considerably more than anyone else, he merely possess a great number of contractual obligations that he is able to call upon if he so wishes.

So the concept of redistribution of wealth persists but its function and effect is considerably different than it would first appear. Taking money from Bill Gates will not effectively change his consumption of goods and thus will not make more food available for the starving but instead it will redistribute where that money is invested. The money would come from Microsoft and other companies in which he holds stock and from the banks he has his deposits in, which in turn will reduce the money available for operations and salaries and available loans for everyday people.

Anyway, there's the barest of beginnings. Let's see what you make of it and we'll continue.

~Raithere

So the concept of redistribution of wealth persists but its function and effect is considerably different than it would first appear.
Is the effect that hard to predict? If the government seizes wealth from those who create it, who will bother to make the effort. Soon the economy is in a shambles and you have famines as in Africa where that idiot seized all the whites farms and redistributed them to the poor. Now his country is starving! Big surprise.

Mugabe didnt redistribute them to the poor. He gave them to his friends. Also many black farmers lost farms, with them being handed to those loyal to him.

You cannot use the "human nature" fallacy as an argument. It has not basis in logic. Nor does it have anything to do with what anybody is talking about. Are you proposing to invent a human society that doesn't account for human behavior?

These are just 2 of the dozens of N American animals on the verge of extinction. What the hell are you talkin about? Are you that much of an ignorant dullard?You said deforestation not species extinction. Wolverines and Wolves are not endangered because to deforestation. They have been systematically killed off by ranchers and encroached upon in some areas by urban development. Most logging in North America is sustainable. Forested area in the US has been about the same for over 100 years now and new growth exceeds logging. So if you want to talk about endangered species we can but you brought up deforestation and it is not a problem in the U.S.

~Raithere

Is the effect that hard to predict? If the government seizes wealth from those who create it, who will bother to make the effort. Soon the economy is in a shambles and you have famines as in Africa where that idiot seized all the whites farms and redistributed them to the poor. Now his country is starving! Big surprise.You've read "Atlas Shrugged" one too many times. While interesting in a freakish hero-worshipping sort of way Rand's depiction is far too simplistic.

Humans are far more inventive and adaptable than Rand ever gave them credit for. If money is not an accessible commodity they will find other means. Case in point: the failure of "Communism" is that one merely swaps money for politics as the medium of exchange. The system still stratifies itself into the haves and the have-nots even when no one actually owns anything. Instead of wealth, one transacts in political favors and influence.

But while I disagree with your reasoning your example still stands and is worth exploring.

~Raithere

Are you proposing to invent a human society that doesn't account for human behavior?
Nobody is talking about human behavior. The human nature argument is pathetic stupidity at the highest degree.

We are talking about a solution. Any city design has to account for human freedom. Should have laws in place to protect human freedom and the environment. Furthermore, the system should have intelligent measures against possible corruption.

There is something regarding behavior, and it is the law. And intelligent ethical law equal for all.

High education and personal care are at the forefront. How free are you if you cannot take care of yourself physically and eat a nutritious mean because it is too expensive, and you do not have the time to do it because you are a labor horse. So you get tired from work. You get addicted to crap food, TV, movies, and other forms of brain and body damage.

Nobody is trying to change your so called "human nature". Nobody said there was ever a need to change your so called "human nature". There is nothing any myth about human nature to consider. It is a cultural mythology. Perhaps not human nature itself. But human nature the super exaggerated monster that will cause conflict because conflict is part of human nature and humans will eventually get bored and find an excuse to fight and humans want more than others and they will stop at nothing to be richer than the next man and stupid ignorant crap after stupid ignorant crap.

Human nature is basically some stupid myth that humans have a nature of greed that will never change because they were born with it. "It is in their nature". Such complete stupidity is typical utterly illogical unscientific cultural minded feeble faced asinine crap.

Everybody has a different personality. There is no single person in which conflict itself is part of some mythological human nature that cannot be changed. Everybody does not want more than other or to be richer than others in order to feel significant. There are factors that cause conflict, and problems. Most of them are the result of a flawed and ineffective institution.

Much of these attitudes many MORONS consider to be human nature are psychological abnormalities resulting in lack of emotional health. An abnormality is far from natural. It might be a natural reaction based on psychological stresses, but it is certainly not fit of a emotionally healthy leel headed individual. And it is certainly BY FAR anything but human nature.

An institution that teaches people not how to think, but how to think for themselves, provides them with the means to take care of themselves, allows them the freedom to decide if they feel taking a job is worth the money without using their desperation and lack of skills/education against them to get them to do crap labor. Psychological health is just as much as important as physical health, and is not separate from physical health.

I give human nature ZERO consideration. It is a fallacy. It just gets regurgitated out of common sense cultural belief. Common sense has no basis in logic. It’s common stupidity.


You said deforestation not species extinction. Wolverines and Wolves are not endangered because to deforestation. They have been systematically killed off by ranchers and encroached upon in some areas by urban development. Most logging in North America is sustainable. Forested area in the US has been about the same for over 100 years now and new growth exceeds logging. So if you want to talk about endangered species we can but you brought up deforestation and it is not a problem in the U.S.
It is a problem in the US. It has already been explained. Of course you are under some kind of ignorant impression that not a single tree was taken down to build all these cities and roads everywhere, and complete forests are taken down pushing wildlife away, and closing in on them. Because “deforestation is not a problem in US or the whole N America”. You are an asshole. Get lost.


I am rich. I am enormously wealthy, in fact.
I have eighteen dollars currently.

Try to figure that one out.
It does not change anything.
The system still works only for the rich, and does not work for everybody equally.
Just because you personally are enormously rich, is another one of your typical brain dead character focused arguments which has nothing to do with the issue. All of your arguments completely disregard the issue and point, and address specific individuals and their character as if it will prove anything. I’m rich because I have $20.00. $2.00 more than you. Therefore, the system works for everybody and there is no poverty.

There is the rich. There is the poor. 2 classes: Affluence and poverty.
If we get rid of poverty, everybody will be affluent.

Affluence is not necessarily a relative term. I simply means that you have the means to health and education.


AFFLUENCE:
Safety from violent harm and protection of your human rights.
Abundant fresh natural food.
Abundant amenities and opportunities to learn and practice physical and psychological health.
High education and skill preventing you from being exploited into labor based on your lack of education.
Clothing and shelter. Ability to sleep, shower, and practice personal care to keep clean and healthy.
Comfort, convenience, beauty, and technology at the tip of your fingertips.
Understanding of addictions and emotional attachments, freedom from it, or readily available help.
Modern medicine, natural remedies, and available health care in the case of sickness.
Clean protected, well preserved environment.


These are not a lot to ask for. These are not difficult for any society to provide for all its citizens. Any leader that truly cares for their people should be ensuring none of their people are without these. No worker doing labor for anybody should be left without these. It is not difficult to provide this for all.


Compared to what? Capitalist countries are far richer, across the board, then communist countries. There is no contest.

PS At what income level does one stop being a lapdog?
I'm not comparing to other countries. Only an ignoramous would comare to other contries. That is such a backward approach.
I compare to a true First World if anything.

Either way, it works or doesn't work. Nobody is absolutely dumb enough to use other countries as a basis of comparison.

The first question is how can you tell if it is working?
In order for something to be working, it must be fulfilling its purpose.
So what is the purpose of an institution?

Capitalism is an institution. It is a system for economics. There is a reason for an institution. Stop being retarded, and comparing to other countries. It's totally brain dead stupidity.


Instead of wealth, one transacts in political favors and influence.
That is how corrupt business is done. That is how a capitalist economy operates. Money is just a piece of paper. The real transactions are exchange of goods and services for the poor. Either way, the poor provide all the services to the rich in exchange for scrap. Some transaction.

My health could go. I could get an untreatable cancer.
My education could go. I could be kicked out of school.
Some starving asshole could take my $18.
I could lose my home.
And I would still be fabulously wealthy.

Poverty is directly proportional to suffering, after all, is it not?

My health could go. I could get an untreatable cancer.
My education could go. I could be kicked out of school.
Some starving asshole could take my $18.
I could lose my home.
And I would still be fabulously wealthy.

I don't understand that post?? Can you explain that a little more thoroughly for me?

Poverty is directly proportional to suffering, after all, is it not?

I don't know ...is it? Do all poor people suffer?

Baron Max

I don't know ...is it? Do all poor people suffer?
According to cool skill.

Of course, according to cool skill, it doesn't matter if I believe myself to be suffering or not. I am a desperate pauper because he says so. And one must keep in mind all the other things I am because he says so: moron, idiot, illogical, irrelevant.

I am all these things and I feel fine. Yet my state of being is evidently decrepit in the extreme. My wealth, therefore, is infinte.

I've already explained what poverty and affluence is in my previous post.

But you're a fucking idiot, so there's not a lot of merit to your "explanation".

You say stupid shit like "corrupt, poor, violent, harm, blah fucking blah is the way it is because I say so". Then someone says, "no, I don' think that's how it is, I think you're missing this, or that it's like this instead", to which your infinite shallowminded, egotistical 'cool skill' replies "asshole, moron, idiot, illogical, irrelevant". You don't care to converse, you preach your inane paranoia as gospel, marginalizing any dissent. You'd make a good dictator if you weren't such a pathetic weakling.

So I say "fuck you" no skill. You are an idiot, moron, asshole, illogical and irrelevant.

I'm not comparing to other countries. Only an ignoramous would comare to other contries. That is such a backward approach.
I compare to a true First World if anything.

OK. Look at the same country. Say Germany. After WW2 it was split in half, one half capitalist, one half communist. In which half were the people better off? Which half had to erect a wall with armed guards to keep people in? Which half was a living hell?

Same thing with North Korea and South Korea, North Vietnam and South Vietnam. Communism doesn't work. As was said earlier, it is incompatible with human nature. If you can't understand that, then let me put it another way. Every time it is tried it results in massive poverty, suffering, and oppression. Every time.

My grandfather came to the US from that worker's paradice, Cuba. He came here with nothing but the clothes on his back and couldn't even speak English. Yet he's done very well for himself and is currently retired and living it up in Florida.

A few years ago my grandfather went back to Cuba for a visit. He found the people there to be living in abject poverty. Prostitutes propositioned him on the street requesting soap as payment (you'd probably want to pay them in advance).

Communism sucks. It is evil. I can't understand how anyone with any knowledge of history could still be advocating it.

But you're a fucking idiot, so there's not a lot of merit to your "explanation".

You say stupid shit like "corrupt, poor, violent, harm, blah fucking blah is the way it is because I say so". Then someone says, "no, I don' think that's how it is, I think you're missing this, or that it's like this instead", to which your infinite shallowminded, egotistical 'cool skill' replies "asshole, moron, idiot, illogical, irrelevant". You don't care to converse, you preach your inane paranoia as gospel, marginalizing any dissent. You'd make a good dictator if you weren't such a pathetic weakling.

So I say "fuck you" no skill. You are an idiot, moron, asshole, illogical and irrelevant.
You are just sad because you have no brain.
This has nothing to do with the topic at hand.
I have provided actual points. You have provided mindless rants and raves.

I've already explained what poverty and affluence is in my previous post.
Ah, yes. I read

AFFLUENCE:
Safety from violent harm and protection of your human rights.
Abundant fresh natural food.
Abundant amenities and opportunities to learn and practice physical and psychological health.
High education and skill preventing