Personally, I like sitting confortably, in a Buddha-like position, not quite like the Buddha images you see:
http://www.uark.edu/ua/metis2/h2p_final/buddha_thumb.jpg

But similar, as in hand position, but not feet. I am not that flexible yet (=. And the important thing for me is to be confortable.

Next, I go to a dream-like state, were I try to get rid of every thought. Words come to my head, but I vanish them... Images come to my head, but I vanish them... Only a few minutes of an hour meditation are worth it, the rest is the mind trying to fight that state, going to the past or future.

I have realized the few moments I get of total darkness, are the moments with more light in them. Is not everytime I manage to reach this state, it is difficult for me, with the brain in the way.

I found that the best method for me is to concentrate on the deepest breathing humming the OMM to my inside while I breath.

But just yesterday I thought, that just thinking about OMMM is still thinking...

You have to be in total blank, no thoughts, no images, no sounds... It´s all in your brain... So, I have come to the conclusion that through many days of meditation, I´ve only being meditating a few minutes per hour...

I am curious, to hear from meditators their methods and conclusions so far...

How?
It all depends on my mood, my specific goals and how my body feels in the moment.

You have to be in total blank, no thoughts, no images, no sounds... It´s all in your brain... So, I have come to the conclusion that through many days of meditation, I´ve only being meditating a few minutes per hour...

This is not correct at all.
There are many different methods of meditiation - as I said, it all depends on your specific goals.
In fact, most experienced people I have known, and Swamis I have read, say that to have a blank mind (if truly possible) entirely undermines meditation and makes it a pointless act.

What ARE your goals when you meditate?
What are you trying to accomplish?

By losing myself in an involving programming/ mathematical/ engineering problem.

How?
It all depends on my mood, my specific goals and how my body feels in the moment.

This is not correct at all.
There are many different methods of meditiation - as I said, it all depends on your specific goals.
In fact, most experienced people I have known, and Swamis I have read, say that to have a blank mind (if truly possible) entirely undermines meditation and makes it a pointless act.

What ARE your goals when you meditate?
What are you trying to accomplish?

My only goal is to undestand myself, nothing else. I believe the understanding of others and everything comes along when I understand my own actions and thoughts.

You say this is not correct, but I can tell you, I have felt bliss all over me the small moments I have had of total devotion to my meditation, just being, not thinking.

I have been there, in the state of non-thinking, but only for small periods of time, and I feel like my body is floating, like I´m nowere and everywere at the same time, is cool stuff. I just wish I could achieve that state longer, not just seconds.

All the methods you say, I know there are many, are in order to obtain that "clear mind" state. If you have a goal, the goal itself is your obstacle.

One of the most intense feelings I have had while meditating, is imagining this whole world as a cell of a higher being´s heart, hearing my own heartbeat, I felt like the whole Earth had a heart beating at the same time as mine, like all life is one. It was really intense, and when I opened my eyes, I saw the tree in front of my house with more colors than I´ve ever seen, like the air itself had colors, I liked it, I smiled like a fool for many hours.

By losing myself in an involving programming/ mathematical/ engineering problem.

I have done that, and I like it, the thing you like about it is that your body segregates endorphins to make you happy, like a drug. But after you are done with a task that lasted hours, you feel tired.
This is not what I call meditation, meditation is about resting, you wake up from meditation like you would wake up from a beautiful dream in the mourning.

I have done that, and I like it, the thing you like about it is that your body segregates endorphins to make you happy, like a drug. But after you are done with a task that lasted hours, you feel tired.
This is not what I call meditation, meditation is about resting, you wake up from meditation like you would wake up from a beautiful dream in the mourning.

No, that's the point.
When I'm involved I finish refreshed and full of energy.
It gets to the stage where I totally lose myself, and don't even think about the task (or anything else).
"I" disappear.
When I look down at what I've done I usually cannot even remember how I did what is finished, in front of me.

My only goal is to undestand myself, nothing else. I believe the understanding of others and everything comes along when I understand my own actions and thoughts.
How can being completely blank of mind help you understand yourself better?

You say this is not correct, but I can tell you, I have felt bliss all over me the small moments I have had of total devotion to my meditation, just being, not thinking.

I have been there, in the state of non-thinking, but only for small periods of time, and I feel like my body is floating, like I´m nowere and everywere at the same time, is cool stuff. I just wish I could achieve that state longer, not just seconds.
You seem to be contradicting yourself.

It seems we have different definitions of having a completely blank mind.
I have expereinced states of nothingness, and, by very definition, I felt nothing.
I couldn't tell you if it lasted for a second or hours (if it weren't for knowing what time I started).
It was as if I did not exist at all.

You feel like your body is floating?
For you to have ANY sensation at all, you necessarily have presence of mind.

All the methods you say, I know there are many, are in order to obtain that "clear mind" state. If you have a goal, the goal itself is your obstacle.
Where do you get this stuff?
I don't see how you do not understand how often you contradict yourself.
Perhaps it is just difficulty in expressing yourself in words.

If you DON'T have a goal, there is not point to it at all.
If you are trying to attain a "clear state of mind" THAT is your goal.
If you are trying to reach nibbana, THAT is your goal.
If you are being introspective and trying to learn more about yourself THAT is your goal.
There are MANY different methods of meditation with very specific purposes.
We were just talking the other day about meditation in public schools with the GOAL of claming the kid's minds and relaxing them.

Without a goal, you aren't doing anything - meditation becomes pointless.

No, that's the point.
When I'm involved I finish refreshed and full of energy.
It gets to the stage where I totally lose myself, and don't even think about the task (or anything else).
"I" disappear.
When I look down at what I've done I usually cannot even remember how I did what is finished, in front of me.

Same happens to me man, I´m not sure if that is meditation. Meditation doesn´t require external factors, it is in you.

How can being completely blank of mind help you understand yourself better?

You seem to be contradicting yourself.

It seems we have different definitions of having a completely blank mind.
I have expereinced states of nothingness, and, by very definition, I felt nothing.
I couldn't tell you if it lasted for a second or hours (if it weren't for knowing what time I started).
It was as if I did not exist at all.

All I know, is that the moment I finish meditating about "nothing", my mind is refreshed, and I suddenly have a clearer view about stuff. I´m not lying here man.

You feel like your body is floating?
For you to have ANY sensation at all, you necessarily have presence of mind.

Yes, I feel like I´m not myself, like I´m not sitting down, I feel like air. I´m not sure if "I feel like floating" describes what I feel, but is surely something like that.

Where do you get this stuff?
I don't see how you do not understand how often you contradict yourself.
Perhaps it is just difficulty in expressing yourself in words.

If you DON'T have a goal, there is not point to it at all.
If you are trying to attain a "clear state of mind" THAT is your goal.
If you are trying to reach nibbana, THAT is your goal.
If you are being introspective and trying to learn more about yourself THAT is your goal.
There are MANY different methods of meditation with very specific purposes.
We were just talking the other day about meditation in public schools with the GOAL of claming the kid's minds and relaxing them.

Without a goal, you aren't doing anything - meditation becomes pointless.

I may have difficulty expressing it to words, but you and me have different view about meditation. I didn´t think so before, but now I do.

I have goals for meditation, I wish to be enlightened, but I´m aware that it may not happen in this life, so I don´t give that much of a thought. My main goal is to know my true self better, but I´m not thinking about that while meditating, not at all. Just before and after, but not while I meditate.

The science of meditation as I see it, is to trick the mind, not make it dissapear. The mind will always be focused on the outside world, about ilusions, about what you see. But the moment you manage to stop thinking about everything, even sounds, images, thoughts, everything, that moment, your mind takes an inner-turn, it starts looking at your true self.

I prefer the lotus position (the same one you posted), but when I meditate I don't try to get into a state of deep relaxation or deep sleep (what a waste of time designed for the sunyavadis) rather I try to get into turiya, the highest state...so basically while in this stance using my mind I attempt to destroy the impulses preventing me from experiencing the (natural) turiya state...this also raises me to a higher mental power, higher knowledge, and also destroys all problems, etc.....I meditate like this all day all the time...whenever you experience the slighest degree of suffering it is the greatest indication that you're not in the turiya state...

In fact, most experienced people I have known, and Swamis I have read, say that to have a blank mind (if truly possible) entirely undermines meditation and makes it a pointless act.
Yes exactly, that deep sleep like state of nothingness makes meditation pointless....

I prefer the lotus position (the same one you posted), but when I meditate I don't try to get into a state of deep relaxation or deep sleep (what a waste of time designed for the sunyavadis) rather I try to get into turiya, the highest state...so basically while in this stance using my mind I attempt to destroy the impulses preventing me from experiencing the (natural) turiya state...this also raises me to a higher mental power, higher knowledge, and also destroys all problems, etc.....I meditate like this all day all the time...whenever you experience the slighest degree of suffering it is the greatest indication that you're not in the turiya state...


Yes exactly, that deep sleep like state of nothingness makes meditation pointless....

I agree with you on most of that, about reaching the higher mental state. I personally think this applies more to sex than anything else. Sexual energy is a lower-state of the life energy, and it can be transformed into a higher-state, that is awareness...
Hatred is a negative channeling of the same energy that it can be transformed into consciousness as well; and the energy reaches a higher state in consciousness.

But when you sit down, in the lotus position, what do you do in order to transform this energy into consciousness? I personally try doing it by being aware of my body feelings, but try to not think at all, just feel. That is not nothingness, although my mind is in a relative state of nothingness, speaking of words, images, and all that is man-made. As I see it, our brains are limited in order to reach this state of truth, if you think about an image or sound, you are thinking about something that your mind created, not the truth. If you think about words, you are not thinking the divine language.

I agree with you on most of that, about reaching the higher mental state. I personally think this applies more to sex than anything else. Sexual energy is a lower-state of the life energy, and it can be transformed into a higher-state, that is awareness...
Hatred is a negative channeling of the same energy that it can be transformed into consciousness as well; and the energy reaches a higher state in consciousness.

But when you sit down, in the lotus position, what do you do in order to transform this energy into consciousness? I personally try doing it by being aware of my body feelings, but try to not think at all, just feel. That is not nothingness, although my mind is in a relative state of nothingness, speaking of words, images, and all that is man-made. As I see it, our brains are limited in order to reach this state of truth, if you think about an image or sound, you are thinking about something that your mind created, not the truth. If you think about words, you are not thinking the divine language.

I don't really think sex is a lower state, I think craving/desperation/insecurity, etc...is a lower state...I don't really understand what you mean by transforming into consciousness...but you should stop avoiding and suppressing your insecurities, by suppressing these things you keep yourself from having happiness...most people avoid and suppress these bad memories automatically and unconsciously...

I don't really think sex is a lower state, I think craving/desperation/insecurity, etc...is a lower state...I don't really understand what you mean by transforming into consciousness...but you should stop avoiding and suppressing your insecurities, by suppressing these things you keep yourself from having happiness...most people avoid and suppress these bad memories automatically and unconsciously...

I agree...

I think sex is a lower state, therefore, the bramacharya ideal.
I mean, our energy is in our body always, and it wants to keep moving, it is its nature. Obviously in order for life to exist, even the less intelligent species use this energy to reproduce, all animals do it, because its basic nature. Or else, life wouldn’t exist, like coral reef, it doesn’t think, but it throws sperm at the ocean to reproduce. Our advantage and double-edged sword is intelligence, because the energy that we use in order to think, and be aware, is the same energy we use to reproduce; only concentrated in different states. Sex is a lower state, because is the basics, every living creature experience that, but intelligence is a way of using that energy too, concentrate the same energy to your awareness is a smart thing.
I’m not talking about suppressing anything here; just being aware of this state is enough.

I have had several people try and get me to start meditating. One told me I needed a mantra. Another said no mantra in fact the key is be completely blank. He said you had to learn the skill of letting thoughts flow instead of grasping on to them.

I have tried a little but I found it all to be worthless. I mean, my time seemed better spent by just relaxing and reading a book or something.

I am not a spiritual person so maybe I just don't get it.

I agree...

I think sex is a lower state, therefore, the bramacharya ideal.
I mean, our energy is in our body always, and it wants to keep moving, it is its nature. Obviously in order for life to exist, even the less intelligent species use this energy to reproduce, all animals do it, because its basic nature. Or else, life wouldn’t exist, like coral reef, it doesn’t think, but it throws sperm at the ocean to reproduce. Our advantage and double-edged sword is intelligence, because the energy that we use in order to think, and be aware, is the same energy we use to reproduce; only concentrated in different states. Sex is a lower state, because is the basics, every living creature experience that, but intelligence is a way of using that energy too, concentrate the same energy to your awareness is a smart thing.
I’m not talking about suppressing anything here; just being aware of this state is enough.

Well most sex energy is in a lower state, but it can be in a higher state...I usually never think of things as being in a higher or lower state...it's not the things that are in this state it's the energy behind them that makes it a higher or lower state...intelligence can be in a lower state...as can anything...anything can be a higher or lower state...even killing and fighting can be a higher state...generousity and giving can be in a lower state, etc....it's best not to look at things with a dual attitude...I just try to destroy these impulses (which cause all doubt, agony, fear, anger, sorrow, boredom, uncertainty, etc...)

Well most sex energy is in a lower state, but it can be in a higher state...I usually never think of things as being in a higher or lower state...it's not the things that are in this state it's the energy behind them that makes it a higher or lower state...intelligence can be in a lower state...as can anything...anything can be a higher or lower state...even killing and fighting can be a higher state...generousity and giving can be in a lower state, etc....it's best not to look at things with a dual attitude...I just try to destroy these impulses (which cause all doubt, agony, fear, anger, sorrow, boredom, uncertainty, etc...)

Ok sounds fair enough! but what is your actual practice in order to destroy those impulses?

Ok sounds fair enough! but what is your actual practice in order to destroy those impulses?

Well there's lots of psychological methods like base reframing...but basically just concentrate on a suppressed feeling within you and let it out...say its ok to remember to yourself and the memory will come out...then after the memory is out you will feel way better , this natural type of happiness...it's very difficult for most people to remember these feelings...

You can also imagine the defiling impulse feeling right...concentration is required...you should read this book called the "Power of Concentration" to increase your concentration power

like this.
http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/blogs/static/dowbrigade/spliff.jpg




no seriously all that matters to me is good posture, i get in different stances/form depending on the type of meditation i am doing.


peace.

Next, I go to a dream-like state, were I try to get rid of every thought.
The dream state is not subject to willful direction.

In a true dream state, you could neither control what you think about, nor attempt to stop thinking altogether...which is itself a kind of thinking.

When you read the biographies of the great buddhist meditators they often relate how they struggled to prevent themselves from falling into a dream state while sitting.

Personally, I like sitting confortably, in a Buddha-like position, not quite like the Buddha images you see:
http://www.uark.edu/ua/metis2/h2p_final/buddha_thumb.jpg

But similar, as in hand position, but not feet. I am not that flexible yet (=. And the important thing for me is to be confortable.
Extending the length of the hamstrings by stretching is far more important to comfortable sitting than flexibility of the knee joints...which would enable a full lotus posture.

Lots of over zealous meditators have torn the meniscus in their knees trying to attain a full lotus before they are ready.

Use nothing more than gravity...dont force the knees down.

What are good stretches for the hamstrings? What are other good stretches? Right now I just sit cross legged leaning against a wall...I know its half-assed. I want to start improving my form. What would be a good initial posture to aim for? What about cushion, zafu?

What are good stretches for the hamstrings? What are other good stretches? Right now I just sit cross legged leaning against a wall...I know its half-assed. I want to start improving my form. What would be a good initial posture to aim for? What about cushion, zafu?
The only reason some people need to raise their rear off the ground with a cushion/zafu is because their hamstrings and other muscles surrounding the hip joints are too short.

If you look at someone who has been trained in Hatha yoga, or a ballet dancer, or a good gymnast, they can sit cross-legged right on the floor comfortably with no effort at all. No need to lean back against a wall.

Hamstring stretching takes a looong time and is quite painful. :D

Runners find it particulary difficult because they are always contracting/shortening that whole area.

What are good stretches for the hamstrings? What are other good stretches? Right now I just sit cross legged leaning against a wall...I know its half-assed. I want to start improving my form. What would be a good initial posture to aim for? What about cushion, zafu?

http://images.google.co.uk/images?q=hamstring+stretch&svnum=10&um=1&hl=en&safe=off&start=20&sa=N&ndsp=20


and for your overall form work on your core muscles, strive to improve your posture in day to day life, dont slouch around sit up straight. pull ups, sit ups, push ups, squats and holding horse stance will help your form, dont do them fast do it as slow as you can, taking up to 1 min on each sit up or push up, a single decent push up is better than 10 crappy ones,


you have to train your posture and core form before you meditate for long periods of time. try to perfect horse stance your endurance to keep your back straight will increase,

peace.

I dont think its necessary to sit in a lotus position to meditate coz if you are not comfortable your mind will constantly be diverted to your strained muscles. As for me i meditate lying down completely flat on my back, focusing on each breath in and out.

http://images.google.co.uk/images?q=hamstring+stretch&svnum=10&um=1&hl=en&safe=off&start=20&sa=N&ndsp=20

This is a good one because it requires no muscular contraction...meaning you can maintain the stretch for long periods.

http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/6843/h5551016dt3.jpg

also when you are lying down flat, with your mental eye go over each part of your body, slowly relaxing the muscles. Start with the big toe on your left/right foot, then the next toe,...and gradually work your way to your head. :)

I dont think its necessary to sit in a lotus position to meditate coz if you are not comfortable your mind will constantly be diverted to your strained muscles. As for me i meditate lying down completely flat on my back, focusing on each breath in and out.
If it were possible to enter true mediation lying down, we would have several thousand years of 'the lying down school'...to gaze and reflect upon.

also when you are lying down flat, with your mental eye go over each part of your body, slowly relaxing the muscles. Start with the big toe on your left/right foot, then the next toe,...and gradually work your way to your head. :)
Sounds like a great way to fall asleep.

Meditation is not sleep.

If it were possible to enter true mediation lying down, we would have several thousand years of 'the lying down school'...to gaze and reflect upon.

back in those days when "Schools" were formed, people use to walk for days together to reach their destination, do a lot of manual labour, ...basically indulge in a lot of physical labour. now we got machines to do it for us. can you imagine walking from california to, say, new york???

now we have to make a concious effort to stay healthy/flexible/fit by joining gyms, walking in the parks, doing yoga, pilates,etc.

Sounds like a great way to fall asleep.

Meditation is not sleep.

I didnt say you need to lie down and fall asleep. meditation is about being aware...aware of your body, aware of each breath in/out. it is about focussing on the inside.

you can even meditate by closing your eyes ( shutting out the outside world). you dont have to do complicated yoga poses to meditate.

Sitting in the lotus pose to meditate has several benefits. but if you are likely to injure your muscles trying out that pose would you suggest people dont meditate?
Meditation is for everyone. Do what makes you comfortable, relaxes you.
You can take a flight, train, bus or car or walk as long as you reach your destination...

he does not sleep, he just sits upright everynight and meditates.
http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/2672/fingerstand1wk.jpg


he is the only guy who could perform 1 finger zen. he was a national hero in china.

peace.

he thinks he is good, i meditate in 1 finger handstand stance. he is just a rookie. :)

peace.

I know elderly people who pray while counting the prayer beads to meditate. :itold:

Just out of curiosity, does anyone here listen to anything while meditating?

the few times I tried it in the start I couldn't concentrate because of outside noises. So I got together some deep ambient intstrumental or enviornmental shit and it helped immensely.

I know elderly people who pray while counting the prayer beads to meditate. :itold:

there are many types of meditation, lots of people think that only 1 type of meditation is "proper". meditation can be for many reasons and effects. from simply calming yourself quickly, relaxing before a workout to prepare your body, clearing your mind of thought to center it, combating a fear or a problem, or even comming up with new philosophy and ideas.


peace.

Just out of curiosity, does anyone here listen to anything while meditating?

the few times I tried it in the start I couldn't concentrate because of outside noises. So I got together some deep ambient intstrumental or enviornmental shit and it helped immensely.

i listen to some music when doing certain types of meditation. sometimes i even meditate while in very very slow movement doing taiji training,


it all depends on what i am doing,

peace.

there are many types of meditation, lots of people think that only 1 type of meditation is "proper". meditation can be for many reasons and effects. from simply calming yourself quickly, relaxing before a workout to prepare your body, clearing your mind of thought to center it, combating a fear or a problem, or even comming up with new philosophy and ideas.


peace.
I agree. I have heard of people who when given problems to solve say they need to meditate on it.
Meditation describes a state of concentrated attention on some object of thought or awareness. It usually involves turning the attention inward to the mind itself.

Just out of curiosity, does anyone here listen to anything while meditating?

the few times I tried it in the start I couldn't concentrate because of outside noises. So I got together some deep ambient intstrumental or enviornmental shit and it helped immensely.

I prefer to have no noise at all. Complete Solitude and Silence.Even with music sometimes my concentration wavers which defeats the purpose of meditating.
But us city-dwellers dont have much choice.:(

In the olden days swamis/yogis would leave home and meditate in the mountains for peace and quiet.Now if we go to meditate in the mountains we would probably be trespassing some resort owners property;)

Thanks for your responses. Chi, what is the holding horse stance?

http://kungfu-artistry.com/images/Information/Stances/Mabu_03.jpg

peace

i dont think i have ever meditated, but to really relax i read and just loose myself in the story

There is no one correct form of meditation. There are several "established" techniques, and many of them involve sitting, lying, walking and all varieties of postures.

Also, there are different mindsets involved that vary according to your objective.

What is important is to develop the necessary mental discipline. I recommend that beginners start with mindfulness of breathing meditation, and then move on to loving kindness meditation before attempting tantric and transcendental methods.

Mindfulness of breathing is just that – concentrating on each breath and focusing on the lip of the nostril as each breath passes. Over time, you'll be able to focus in on a single hair and feel it move with each breath. The real objective, though, is to calm the "monkey mind," the part of your consciousness that wanders from thought to thought as each need vies for your attention.

Many beginners try to achieve a "blank mind," which is not effective. Instead, you want to acknowledge the thoughts and distractions (without mentally acting on them), but then return your focus to your breathing. It's harder than it sounds and takes much practice. After some time, though, you will master it.

Once you do, the next step I recommend is loving kindness meditation. This helps you draw your focus internally and learn to align your spiritual energies.

If you are truly serious about meditation, I would recommend seeking out a sangha in your area and finding a good teacher. Many people become quickly frustrated and give up when all they need is some guidance and support. Remember that you are undoing decades of mental conditioning, so it will take some time. But it will change your life in a profound and beneficial way.

I need to mediate again... I've been so anxious...

But who can meditate with a todler constantly running around and screaming? :D

No wonder I'm anxious! LOL! :D

The word meditation has really fallen on hard times.

If you were to enter a Buddhist temple anywhere in the orient, and explain to the master that meditation can mean anything you like...lying down, listening to music, thinking about math problems, having sex...he would problably just roll his eyes and show you the door.

Nowadays, when there is little respect for effort, strict rules and definitions, the word has been reduced to an amorphous puddle of meaningless.

The great Zen Master Hakuin Ekaku even wrote a little essay on this trend, which had started even in his time a few hundred years ago.

He called it: Reflections on Do- Nothing Zen.

So, if I just stretch my hamstrings will I eventually be able to get into a half-lotus? Or are there other muscle groups I need to stretch as well?

(by the way, just stretching my hams beforehand helps alot, I'm surprised at the difference it makes. So thanks!).

The word meditation has really fallen on hard times.

If you were to enter a Buddhist temple anywhere in the orient, and explain to the master that meditation can mean anything you like...lying down, listening to music, thinking about math problems, having sex...he would problably just roll his eyes and show you the door.

Nowadays, when there is little respect for effort, strict rules and definitions, the word has been reduced to an amorphous puddle of meaningless.

The great Zen Master Hakuin Ekaku even wrote a little essay on this trend, which had started even in his time a few hundred years ago.

He called it: Reflections on Do- Nothing Zen.
Well, truth is, meditation is not about how you do it. How do you "do nothing". It's technically impossible. And yet, the very center of Zen-Buddhism?

I think "wu wei" has a much deeper meaning that most of us are able to grasp....

...Sorry... it's 1:00am... I can feel what I want to say but the words are not getting in my brain... I'll sleep and get back to you tomorrow... :D



;)

Oh yes! YES! Just got enlightned.... :D


Consider this...

When I'm hungry, I eat.
When I'm thristy, I drink.
When I'm tired, I sleep.
Therefore, wherever the Tao leads you, there should you go.
Such is the nature of those who follow the Tao.

:itold:


That's wu wei. :)

To me mediaition is complete immersion in the object of meditation via sustained concentration. The object can vary according to ones chosen religion or desired goals eg it could be; compassion, Buddha, Shiva, Jesus, Ohm, suffering, space, breath, the sun etc etc.

The highest meditation that can be acheived is when the immersion in the object of meditation is so complete that the sense of subject and object is completely lost. This is called samadhi. (not that I have ever acheived this :bawl: )

You have to be in total blank, no thoughts, no images, no sounds... It´s all in your brain... So, I have come to the conclusion that through many days of meditation, I´ve only being meditating a few minutes per hour...
...

How?
In fact, most experienced people I have known, and Swamis I have read, say that to have a blank mind (if truly possible) entirely undermines meditation and makes it a pointless act.



My take on this is that (as Raven says) the mind is not blank in meditation. The mind is fixed on its object and is therefore still.

The mind should be still but not blank…. There is a big difference.



My meditation is done either in half or full lotus. I started in half and worked up to full over a long period (yoga helps with this). I sit on a small cushion , eyes closed. I start by following breath. I then either stay with breath for the whole session or change to another subject. Meditations on space are a current favorite.

My take on this is that (as Raven says) the mind is not blank in meditation. The mind is fixed on its object and is therefore still.

The mind should be still but not blank…. There is a big difference.

My meditation is done either in half or full lotus. I started in half and worked up to full over a long period (yoga helps with this). I sit on a small cushion , eyes closed. I start by following breath. I then either stay with breath for the whole session or change to another subject. Meditations on space are a current favorite.

I think I understand what you mean.
I know the mind always wants to keep thinking, its never still. I think we fall into that "still state" just before we fall asleep. I´m not talking about being totally sleeping, but the minute before you go into the "dream world". Isn´t that a still mind? That would mean we fall into that "still state" of the mind everyday, but not voluntarily.

I like using some sort of backround sounds to help, like a recorded rainstorm with very subtle musical notes.
Also, when I meditate just listening to some birds singing is kinda refreshing.

I also like thinking about becoming an object or animal. For instance, "becoming" the bird singing, try to see everything through his eyes. Or "becoming" a certain tree.

Do this kind of practices help?

I like using some sort of backround sounds to help, like a recorded rainstorm with very subtle musical notes. Also, when I meditate just listening to some birds singing is kinda refreshing.

I also like thinking about becoming an object or animal. For instance, "becoming" the bird singing, try to see everything through his eyes. Or "becoming" a certain tree.

Do this kind of practices help?

I think it all depends on what the objective of your meditation is. If you're simply looking for relaxation, then anything that makes you feel more at ease is going to be beneficial.

If you're seeking enlightenment (in the Buddhist sense), you will eventually need to engage in practices that develop your mental discipline and allow you to achieve a quiet mind voluntarily. Also, that path has a more structured approach to meditation that does require practice. It's not for everyone.

The two are not mutually exclusive, though, by any means. And the former has great value for mental health and quality of life. Any practice that helps you to be present in the moment is wonderful thing, so do what works for you and pay no heed to anyone that tries to tell you that "you're doing it wrong."

.......

Eevn if there are different ways to meditate, there's something about all meditation that is always equal. Otherwise, it couldn't all be defined as "meditation", correct?

As far as I know, meditation is intimately connected with wu wei. Possibly, they are one and the same.

As I said...

"When I'm hungry, I eat.
When I'm thristy, I drink.
When I'm tired, I sleep.
Therefore, wherever the Tao leads you, there should you go.
Such is the nature of those who follow the Tao."

This is a way of life. Not just sitting and being quiet.

I remember when I used to meditate. It would be wonderful, but a drag. Because I would have to stop everything I was doing to sit down and still my mind. And I did that throughout my whole teen years, nearly every day. I got so good at it at some point that I would have weird experiences. A lot of times, I would feel pure love in my heart and start crying of happiness (cheesy, but true). Some times, I would feel an extreme heat coming from inside that would make my body so hot I would be sweating and creating a pool of sweat where I was sitting. That just by sitting still and concentrating with my mind totally empty.

But after that, I can see that the real challenge is to ALWAYS be in that "frame of mind". Not only when sitting still (which is easy), but when doing things - the whole day long. I think that is teh real goal.

So, if I just stretch my hamstrings will I eventually be able to get into a half-lotus? Or are there other muscle groups I need to stretch as well?

(by the way, just stretching my hams beforehand helps alot, I'm surprised at the difference it makes. So thanks!).
The ligaments around your knee joints have to be lengthened somewhat...but very slowly.

I ripped the menicus in my right knee years ago because I tried to progress too fast, and it has never completely healed.

When you have lengthened all the muscles at the back of your thighs, you will find yourself sitting up straighter even when at your desk, your standing posture will improve, and you will be able to sit effortlessly for longer periods in meditation.

If you ever get REALLY flexible like a dancer, you wont even need a cushion for elevation.

Some times, I would feel an extreme heat coming from inside that would make my body so hot I would be sweating and creating a pool of sweat where I was sitting. That just by sitting still and concentrating with my mind totally empty.
The founder of Aikido also mastered something like this internal heat generation, and used it to survived the winters in Hokkaido, the northern most Japanese island.

You should check his excellent biography: 'Invincible Warrior' by John Stevens.

I got so good at it at some point that I would have weird experiences. A lot of times, I would feel pure love in my heart and start crying of happiness (cheesy, but true).

The american mystic Dr. David R. Hawkins also suffers (?) from this little symptom of meditation.

He would spontaneously burst into tears whenever he met anyone manifesting any kind of positive loving energy.

When he was interviewed by Oprah, he would occaisionally get choked up so he couldnt speak for a moment or two.

Some great audio interviews here:
http://beyondtheordinary.net/drhawkins.shtml

The founder of Aikido also mastered something like this internal heat generation, and used it to survived the winters in Hokkaido, the northern most Japanese island.

You should check his excellent biography: 'Invincible Warrior' by John Stevens.
Wow! He must had had it mastered! It requires quite a bit of concentration...! :eek:

.......

Eevn if there are different ways to meditate, there's something about all meditation that is always equal. Otherwise, it couldn't all be defined as "meditation", correct?

As far as I know, meditation is intimately connected with wu wei. Possibly, they are one and the same.

As I said...

"When I'm hungry, I eat.
When I'm thristy, I drink.
When I'm tired, I sleep.
Therefore, wherever the Tao leads you, there should you go.
Such is the nature of those who follow the Tao."

This is a way of life. Not just sitting and being quiet.

I remember when I used to meditate. It would be wonderful, but a drag. Because I would have to stop everything I was doing to sit down and still my mind. And I did that throughout my whole teen years, nearly every day. I got so good at it at some point that I would have weird experiences. A lot of times, I would feel pure love in my heart and start crying of happiness (cheesy, but true). Some times, I would feel an extreme heat coming from inside that would make my body so hot I would be sweating and creating a pool of sweat where I was sitting. That just by sitting still and concentrating with my mind totally empty.

But after that, I can see that the real challenge is to ALWAYS be in that "frame of mind". Not only when sitting still (which is easy), but when doing things - the whole day long. I think that is teh real goal.

I appreciate your words, I found them very cool. :cool:

You know it is weird how those feelings you talk about while meditating also have happened to me in the past. I think this is good though, to watch these emotional changes from an outtern perspective while meditating. I think it helps you understand yourself better, as well as your purpose in this life.

The word meditation has really fallen on hard times.

If you were to enter a Buddhist temple anywhere in the orient, and explain to the master that meditation can mean anything you like...lying down, listening to music, thinking about math problems, having sex...he would problably just roll his eyes and show you the door.

Nowadays, when there is little respect for effort, strict rules and definitions, the word has been reduced to an amorphous puddle of meaningless.

The great Zen Master Hakuin Ekaku even wrote a little essay on this trend, which had started even in his time a few hundred years ago.

He called it: Reflections on Do- Nothing Zen.


at the shaolin temple i attend thats not the case. maybe you have taken a single form of meditation and applied it to everything. the word meditation has no set form or use. i have studied under buddhist monks for years and we meditate in a number of ways. meditation does not mean "anything you like" but it does have many different forms to achieve different things. and yes you can meditate while listning to music. many buddhist prayer meditations are done while monks play instruments.

contact the temple i attend and ask our abbot shi yong xin personaly if you want a "masters" opinion.

contact the guy in the middle at the link below to confirm what i just said if you require an abbots opinion.

http://www.shaolintempleuk.org/stuk/images/from_book.jpg


http://www.shaolintempleuk.org/stuk/index.html

The word meditation has no set form or use. i have studied under buddhist monks for years and we meditate in a number of ways. meditation does not mean "anything you like" but it does have many different forms to achieve different things. and yes you can meditate while listning to music. many buddhist prayer meditations are done while monks play instruments.
Are you aware that the Shaolin school's emphasis is no longer on Buddhism, but on the martial arts.

Buddism does not have many diferent objectives. It has only one objective.

In the martial arts there are hundreds of possible objectives.

There are a number of practises in Chan Buddhism which are sometimes called meditation but are not. Chanting and prayer are good examples. There is also the additional confusion between what is meditation and what is enlightenment.

In traditional buddhism they are distinct (although related) principles, but nowadays people are always using them interchangeably, as if they mean exactly the same thing.

Are you aware that the Shaolin school's emphasis is no longer on Buddhism, but on the martial arts.

Buddism does not have many diferent objectives. It has only one objective.

In the martial arts there are hundreds of possible objectives.

There are a number of practises in Chan Buddhism which are sometimes called meditation but are not. Chanting and prayer are good examples. There is also the additional confusion between what is meditation and what is enlightenment.

In traditional buddhism they are distinct (although related) principles, but nowadays people are always using them interchangeably, as if they mean exactly the same thing.

i do not belong to a modern shaolin school/academy, i go to a shaolin temple wich teaches buddhism as much as martial arts. if you look on the link you will see. there are monks there that do not fight, my master shi yanzi studies chan buddhism.


enlightenment is not meditation i cant see how the 2 words can even be slightly confused with one another.

not all buddhism is the same, i learn about zen buddhism at the temple closed door with the abbot. and zen buddhism is different to alot of other sects and teachings, not all buddhists experience the same things or lead the same lives. there are differences in different buddhist ways,


peace.

Not all buddhism is the same, i learn about zen buddhism at the temple closed door with the abbot. and zen buddhism is different to alot of other sects and teachings, not all buddhists experience the same things or lead the same lives. there are differences in different buddhist ways.
Thats certainly true.

For example the words Chan and Zen are just the Chinese and Japanese words for meditation.

It is called the 'meditation school' of Buddhism because the emphasis is on meditation.

The Buddhism practised in Thailand or Tibet has a different emphasis.

The thing is, you have ask yourself - What is true Buddhism, as it was orginally intended by the founder.

And to what extent has this vision become obscured by many centuries of cultural adaptation.

Thats certainly true.

For example the words Chan and Zen are just the Chinese and Japanese words for meditation.

It is called the 'meditation school' of Buddhism because the emphasis is on meditation.

The Buddhism practised in Thailand or Tibet has a different emphasis.

The thing is, you have ask yourself - What is true Buddhism, as it was orginally intended by the founder.

And to what extent has this vision become obscured by many centuries of cultural adaptation.


its interesting you say that. because alot of people say to me that i dont understand buddhism properly. wich in many cases i dont. im still learning alot about buddhism. im a daoist personaly but i do practice zen budhism at the temple,


there is still alot about buddhism that i do not know. mainly the doctrines and teachings of buddha. but the most important part of buddhism so far to me is meditation, understanding the true nature of things and myself. i am learning about the four noble truths at the moment.


many things can be obscured, but if we strip away the fluff from anything and start again with our minds we can understand.


peace.

You cannot be taught zen buddhism.

You cannot be taught zen buddhism.

you can be taught methods to use to help you with zen buddhism, you can also be taught things to help enable you to reach higher levels within zen buddhism. if a child was told nothing about zen buddhism he might not get very far with it.


you obviously have to be taught some things to help you along the way. but ofcourse its about teaching yourself and advancing yourself. but we all need a little help at first.

peace.

Unfortunately, Zen Buddhism can only be learn through the communion with the universe. Words are not enough to describe it.

Unfortunately, Zen Buddhism can only be learn through the communion with the universe. Words are not enough to describe it.

lol i guess you came across zen buddhism through divine intuition and not through educated text or word.

peace.

I guess. Altough I didn't have a name for it...

I guess. Altough I didn't have a name for it...

but now you do, and with the help and guidence of others you can accomplish more on your own path.

its like anything. the more knowledge you have about things the better you will achieve. society advances on the foundation of generations of knowledge built up from a starting point.

the same applies to zen, ofcourse you have to do it alone thats what its all about. but the more understanding you have of everything the more you will gain. we all need the guiding hand of an "abbot" but we alone can walk through the doors, we still need to be shown where the door is sometimes.



peace.

Sit down and start wasting time. thats meditation

Sit down and start wasting time. thats meditation

way to stay on-topic

Interestingly, in China, Korea and Japan, Zen masters created a whole system of questions designed to discover how much their students DONT know about Buddhism.

The questions are called koans in Japanese.

The questions dont appear to make any sense, but if a student responds with an intellectual answer gleaned from studying Buddhist doctrine...he will be failed by the master.

Here are some examples of koans:

1. The snowflakes do not fall in any particular place...what does this mean?

2. A ox passes through a window frame. The head, horns, and the legs have passed...why cant the tail go through?

3. How can a man walk in daylight without stepping on his shadow?

woot wooot woot woot wot woooot?!

1. The rolling stone gathers no nuts for the winter.

2. I seem to have missed the body of the question.

3. The sun even shines up a dog's ass sometimes.

1. The rolling stone gathers no nuts for the winter.

2. I seem to have missed the body of the question.

3. The sun even shines up a dog's ass sometimes.
Good olde koans...... :)


...wait a minute..... :D

1. The rolling stone gathers no nuts for the winter.

2. I seem to have missed the body of the question.

3. The sun even shines up a dog's ass sometimes.
I dont think the last two would be accepted, but the first response might.

Youve done far better than most who encounter koans for the first time...and you didnt just google em either.

The correct answer isnt even neccessarily an answer, its better described as a 'response'...which can even take the form of physical action, with no words spoken.

Or no response at all. ;)

Or no response at all. ;)There has to be some response, most of them being very strange indeed.

Theres even a book written by a modern Japanese master called..."You have to say something!"

I dont think the last two would be accepted, but the first response might.

Youve done far better than most who encounter koans for the first time...and you didnt just google em either.

The correct answer isnt even neccessarily an answer, its better described as a 'response'...which can even take the form of physical action, with no words spoken.

Thank you. I just aimed for ironic and sort of koan-like responses.

It's not the first time that I have ever encountered them, and I do get the point. It's a Rorschach test. The correct answer comes from your soul. The point is whether you have made a connection with your true self, as I am sure is actually explained in class over and over again in many ways, all attempts to get past mental barriers, both self-imposed and societal.

There has to be some response, most of them being very strange indeed.

Theres even a book written by a modern Japanese master called..."You have to say something!"
I think koans are designed to answer questions, whether then test people's wisdom. The natural reaction for a koan is surprise. Of course, if you take the koan out of context, then it's complete nonsense. But if you read the whole story on context, it makes sense.

Koans are designed to enlighten...

I go to my safety deposit box and count the 100's until I get a real big grin on my face. ;)

I do a shot of Jack and lay under the air conditioning and just veg... usually with my iPod blasting in my ears.

~String

I think koans are designed to answer questions, whether then test people's wisdom. The natural reaction for a koan is surprise. Of course, if you take the koan out of context, then it's complete nonsense. But if you read the whole story on context, it makes sense.

Koans are designed to enlighten...
Koans are designed to test the attainment of the Zen adept. A monk could not become a master until he had passed hundreds of koans with an appropriate response...this was how the buddhist hierarchy of authority was organized, and still is in Japan's Rinzai school.

Some koans are very long, with a whole prologue leading to a question. And some are no more than a few words.

Real Zen has no hierarchy.

Real Zen has no hierarchy.
No, thats the hippie commune...down the street.

ha....

not funny...

There are no gods in zen, and no hierarchy. Nobody is more important then the other. Yes, some are more experienced, but true masters don't call themselves masters. They are just called "masters" by other people. That's part of the message of Zen. Of course, everyone likes spoiling everything that the Tao/God "says"... :rolleyes:

Notice how in nature we are not considered any more important then other creatures.

There are no gods in zen, and no hierarchy.
There is certainly a hierarchy of attainment in Zen monasteries, and the strictest rules you'll find outside of the military.

Each and every student in Zen schools has a rank, based not only on their level of experience, but also their koan study, as determined by the master. They even line up for interviews according to rank.

About as far from new age hippiedom as you can get.

No. Those contemporary religious-like customs are not the real ancient Zen. In the original Zen, there were no rituals, no hierarchy, no worship of gods, no idols, no tests- nothing. Zen Buddhism has been spoiled by ignorance, just like pretty much everything else on this planet.

Those contemporary religious-like customs are not the real ancient Zen. In the original Zen, there were no rituals, no hierarchy, no worship of gods, no idols...
There is no religion or ritual in Zen.

The words Zen and Chan simply mean 'meditation' in Japanese and Chinese, so what is practised in Japan, Korea and China is the 'meditation' school, with the emphasis on meditation.

There are however many relgious aspects of worship and ritual in Tibetan Buddhism, and to a lesser extent in south-east Asian styles.