http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p42/lightgigantic/Toon-49.gif

Any ideas?

I avoid it completely. I keep to my own beliefs in life and also learn from how others have succeeded in life, what did they believe in that made them happy and successfull in life.

I avoid it completely. I keep to my own beliefs in life and also learn from how others have succeeded in life, what did they believe in that made them happy and successfull in life.

Given that death is inevitable at the end of everyone's life, it appears that the small failures in life are lead ups to the big failure.

Given that death is inevitable at the end of everyone's life, it appears that the small failures in life are lead ups to the big failure.

my everlasting motto is: "NEVER GIVE UP"

small failures...big failures...doesn't matter, as long as I reach my goal in life before death strikes me if it shall. Thus I will fulfill my spiritual goal.

Stick an icepick in your ear and push it all the way in, then jiggle it around until you don't worry about that nonsense any more.

Stick an icepick in your ear and push it all the way in, then jiggle it around until you don't worry about that nonsense any more.

yes death is very rewarding.

my everlasting motto is: "NEVER GIVE UP"

small failures...big failures...doesn't matter, as long as I reach my goal in life before death strikes me if it shall. Thus I will fulfill my spiritual goal.

What goal can you reach that isn't frustrated by death?

What goal can you reach that isn't frustrated by death?

death is here so that one doesnt waste time, but accomplish the task in a specific time range, otherwise people would be lazy and bored. Death is not a frustration, it is just a remainder that there is a deadline for the task to be completed...like any game.

death is here so that one doesnt waste time, but accomplish the task in a specific time range, otherwise people would be lazy and bored. Death is not a frustration, it is just a remainder that there is a deadline for the task to be completed...like any game.

Why does pleasure require a deadline to achieve it?

Why does pleasure require a deadline to achieve it?

Because humans take advantage of everything, they want budge unless they have to. Every game has an end...Halo 2...for example, its awsome...yeah, it got some levels...but when one plays it over and over again accomplishing the goal, he realizes that change must come and the game must end. Because the world becomes boring and mind is like a sponge, needing more and more untill there is no more to satisfy it. I really think death is logical from all points of view, I believe in rebirth, but all memories are erased. Everything is applicable to real world scenarious...just like a rebooting computer with CPU as a soul and software as life. But than that is my belief, others whish of God to be their master, one to follow, one to believe in. I do not need God, I do not need heaven, I do not need hell, I need to die and be reborn in another life with another situation...to play another "game" of life. :p

I do not need heaven, I do not need hell, I need to die and be reborn in another life with another situation...to play another "game" of life. :p

.... at the every least it appears you require the dualistic notion of success and failure, which is akin to heaven and hell

.... at the every least it appears you require the dualistic notion of success and failure, which is akin to heaven and hell

success and failure to improve oneself for the future handling of other lifes...I believe one's spirit learns in this world, (not memory-wise). I believe I can become as close to God, if such entity exists, if I practice my power of will stronger each time in this life and next one...I learn my lesson...and thus become a more powerfull entity. Once again...it is my belief, it does not match any religion, as my belief is unique and it is what I follow.

draqon

success and failure to improve oneself for the future handling of other lifes
what is an example of the successful person who does something in this life that enables them to be better prepared for the next life, particularly since you insistthat memory is lost in such a metamorphis

...I believe one's spirit learns in this world, (not memory-wise). I believe I can become as close to God, if such entity exists, if I practice my power of will stronger each time in this life and next one
What would be an example of a person practicing stronger will than another person?

...I learn my lesson...
What lesson is that?

and thus become a more powerfull entity.
Powerful? More money? Intelligence? Following and Fame?
How does deathnot finish all this in a moment?

Once again...it is my belief, it does not match any religion, as my belief is unique and it is what I follow.
Unique or not, that's not the issue

draqon


what is an example of the successful person who does something in this life that enables them to be better prepared for the next life, particularly since you insistthat memory is lost in such a metamorphis

What would be an example of a person practicing stronger will than another person?

(Not giving up when there is pain. Ex: I came to university and had my bike in another town 80 miles away. The only way to get that bike to the university was to bike, and so I did bike from a state I have never been to to a university I had been only two days in my life (since I was a freshman than)...and I drove at night...on a highway...and I accomplished my goal in 8 hours while biking all night, not giving up in the September cold day)


What lesson is that?

(This is what I need to learn, that is the purpose of life)


Powerful? More money? Intelligence? Following and Fame?
How does deathnot finish all this in a moment?

Powerfull as understanding life for what it is. Powerfull as having strong will, (if I decided something, I will finish it), Powerfull in love for others. Powerfull in spirit. It is not lost because it is not a memory...I have still to understand how exactly it is not lost when death occurs, but I am sure it is not.

draqon

what is an example of the successful person who does something in this life that enables them to be better prepared for the next life, particularly since you insistthat memory is lost in such a metamorphis

What would be an example of a person practicing stronger will than another person?

(Not giving up when there is pain. Ex: I came to university and had my bike in another town 80 miles away. The only way to get that bike to the university was to bike, and so I did bike from a state I have never been to to a university I had been only two days in my life (since I was a freshman than)...and I drove at night...on a highway...and I accomplished my goal in 8 hours while biking all night, not giving up in the September cold day)
so you could argue that this endeavour will help you for your future (future employment via education etc) but its not clear how this helps you in the next life


What lesson is that?

(This is what I need to learn, that is the purpose of life)
Still not clear what you need to learn (You have indicated that a person needs to learn certain skills to get by in this life, but its not clear in what ways such learning is progressive)


Powerful? More money? Intelligence? Following and Fame?
How does deathnot finish all this in a moment?

Powerfull as understanding life for what it is.
and what is that?

Powerfull as having strong will, (if I decided something, I will finish it),
Hitler and stalin also had strong will powers (stalin underwnet stomach surgery without an anaesthetic) - does that make them advanced?

Powerfull in love for others.
what are the parameters and guidelines for determining who has a stronger love than another?

Powerfull in spirit. It is not lost because it is not a memory...I have still to understand how exactly it is not lost when death occurs, but I am sure it is not.[/QUOTE]
actually it seems you are voicing the constitutional natur e of the living entity - we have a desire to look for the permanant amongst the temporary, teh eternal amongst the transient, speak of undying love while our molars rot in our mouth etc.
This thread was addressing the difficulty of learning these things, since we can indicate "this is not the truth/that is not the truth" but it becomes difficult to actually indicate the truth

draqon
so you could argue that this endeavour will help you for your future (future employment via education etc) but its not clear how this helps you in the next life


Still not clear what you need to learn (You have indicated that a person needs to learn certain skills to get by in this life, but its not clear in what ways such learning is progressive)

and what is that?

Hitler and stalin also had strong will powers (stalin underwnet stomach surgery without an anaesthetic) - does that make them advanced?


what are the parameters and guidelines for determining who has a stronger love than another?

actually it seems you are voicing the constitutional natur e of the living entity - we have a desire to look for the permanant amongst the temporary, teh eternal amongst the transient, speak of undying love while our molars rot in our mouth etc.
This thread was addressing the difficulty of learning these things, since we can indicate "this is not the truth/that is not the truth" but it becomes difficult to actually indicate the truth





hey...I am not an all-knowing entity. Each of us in this world got their own purpose and understanding of life, follow it. Whatever it is that human define as good...that is what I am trying to follow.

hey...I am not an all-knowing entity. Each of us in this world got their own purpose and understanding of life, follow it. Whatever it is that human define as good...that is what I am trying to follow.
lol - that's ok
don't mind my prodding

I am just trying to determine the nature/means/qualities/disqualities that define that goal for everyone

like the OP was examining the difficulty in presenting something transcendental - just seeing where it goes from there

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p42/lightgigantic/Toon-49.gif

Any ideas?

You are born with the capability or you arent. If you have the spiritual instincts, you can learn it.
If you are interested in learning, contact me, also, just look at some of my previous posts. I have posts on my philosophy.

You are born with the capability or you arent.
True. And also if you are lucky to meet the right Guru who is ready to share the light with you.

Maybe we could move on to discussing the distinguishing characteristics of a bona fide guru .....

True. And also if you are lucky to meet the right Guru who is ready to share the light with you.

Guru is the wrong word. But yes, you can learn a lot if you have a mentor or teacher. Your role of course would be apprentice, but this is how you learn.

Just beware of people who are trying to sell stuff to you or charge you for enlightenment.

You'll know them when they find you.
They appear everywhere, maybe it will be someone you'll meet, could be anyone, from a homeless person, to your doctor, to someone you are dating, literally. The real gurus definately do not call themselves gurus, I know that much. It's not like everyone is taught either, so if you are given a gift of this sort consider yourself lucky, both for being selected to recieve it, and for the ability to be enlightened in the first place.

I suggest you first, start asking better more precise questions. You are still on the meaning of life questions, figure out what the meaning of life is, then figure out exactly who you are and what your purpose is, and after you do this, Google will be your friend, learn as much as you can.

Guru is the wrong word. But yes, you (lightgigantic) can learn a lot if you have a mentor or teacher. Your role of course would be apprentice, but this is how you learn.

Just beware of people who are trying to sell stuff to you or charge you for enlightenment.
I beg to differ. I meant Guru, I will explain even though this is explained in good details here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guru).

Most of the people in search of the truth/light/enlightenment or ‘the path’ will some how find a mentor and teacher who will most probably become the biggest hurdle in your (lightgigantic) path ahead. Because these mentors and teachers only mentor and teach things that they haven’t reached yet and they will only give you (lightgigantic) a version that they ‘assume’ is real.

I am ready to become the disciple or believer or slave (you name it) of a person (teacher/mentor) who can share some experiences (not things out of hallucination) that would help me understand that, that individual have achieved higher stages of human evolution or understanding. I am confident to say that neither will I nor will you (lightgigantic)ever come across any one who has been to that stage because those men (and if lucky women) don’t care about you (lightgigantic) or me or establishing the fact that they have gone beyond and are more focused in their practices or beliefs or karma.

Some of these, whom we call Gurus, as they have abundance of love to share the wealth (of divine understanding) that they have accumulated and mere vicinity of such a person can solve many mysteries and miseries that you (lightgigantic) had till that time.

I meant such a Guru and not definitely a mentor or teacher. I feel since you (lightgigantic) have the quest you will surely go ahead a long way but steps ahead do decide them with your heart not with mind or brain.

I read recently in Sri Yogavasishtam that a person who has developed a quest (for truth) is no more considered ordinary. I also recommend you (lightgigantic) to read Sri Yogavasishtam and try to understand some of the logic which is very simple to understand and it helps a person to decide on the path himself.

I beg to differ. I meant Guru, I will explain even though this is explained in good details here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guru).

Most of the people in search of the truth/light/enlightenment or ‘the path’ will some how find a mentor and teacher who will most probably become the biggest hurdle in your path ahead. Because these mentors and teachers only mentor and teach things that they haven’t reached yet and they will only give you a version that they ‘assume’ is real.

I am ready to become the disciple or believer or slave (you name it) of a person (teacher/mentor) who can share some experiences (not things out of hallucination) that would help me understand that, that individual have achieved higher stages of human evolution or understanding. I am confident to say that neither will I nor will you ever come across any one who has been to that stage because those men (and if lucky women) don’t care about you or me or establishing the fact that they have gone beyond and are more focused in their practices or beliefs or karma.


I think you under-estimate me, and who I have met. Perhaps you also under-estimate the people you have met.

Some of these, whom we call Gurus, as they have abundance of love to share the wealth (of divine understanding) that they have accumulated and mere vicinity of such a person can solve many mysteries and miseries that you had till that time.
Again
I think you under-estimate a lot. Enlightened people are everywhere, and always have been.

I meant such a Guru and not definitely a mentor or teacher. I feel since you have the quest you will surely go ahead a long way but steps ahead do decide them with your heart not with mind or brain.

I read recently in Sri Yogavasishtam that a person who has developed a quest (for truth) is no more considered ordinary. I also recommend you to read Sri Yogavasishtam and try to understand some of the logic which is very simple to understand and it helps a person to decide on the path himself.

It's a path I'm already on, and have been on. One of the main things I've learned is, guru worship is not the way to seek enlightenment, because you are focusing in on the individual. In general you'll find all the answers to your questions if you study your environment, and become a student of life. Sometimes a mentor can direct you down the right path, or give you advice on what to study, but while a mentor may definately be greater and more powerful than you, it's still an individual, with unique strengths and weaknesses.

What I do know is, divine understanding, it's something that you can stumble upon by mistake, without a mentor. Or at least thats how it happened for me, I sorta just, discovered the truth one day.

I do admit, there were internet sites, books, which you can equate to signs on a road pointing in the right direction, but I came to certain conclusions on my own. Now I'm discovering, that these conclusions, were part of a tradition of some sort that goes back thousands of years.

You can see here what I came up with
http://sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=57143

In general, the main discovery, on the path to enlightenment that people make is realizing that everything is connected. If you can get to that point, it's like moving up one level. This is something that is not unique to eastern though, basically it's the concept which seems to be behind all kinds of traditions around the globe.

I completely understand what you mean by how intensely spiritual people are not ordinary. I'm not ordinary, thats not really a good thing for me as an individual, but it totally depends on what the world values. I'd think spiritual advancement is good for humanity even if it's bad for me as the individual.

If you'd like to discuss this with me, send me a private message containing your email address or screen name. I'm always willing to learn something new, and share knowledge.

I sorta just, discovered the truth one day.
Come on man...this is too much !:D

If you'd like to discuss this with me, send me a private message containing your email address or screen name. I'm always willing to learn something new, and share knowledge.
I will and have edited my previous post to reflect what I meant and to whom.

There is nothing you can do but get out of the way.

There is nothing you can do but get out of the way.
then it becomes very difficult to determine progress

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p42/lightgigantic/Toon-25.gif

What do you want, a certificate?

What do you want, a certificate?

No - just an indication of progress (definitions of quality or goal)

None yet, keep trying.

None yet, keep trying.
So there is no difference between your average working site labourer and someone like buddha, jesus etc, since there are no defining qualities for advancement or progress?

His Holiness Hui Neng, who became the great Sixth Patriarch of Ch'an (Japanese Zen) was a poor illiterate peasant boy from Hsin Chou of Kwangtung. One day, after he had delivered firewood to a shop, he overheard a man reciting the following line from the "Diamond Sutra" - "Depending upon no-thing, you must find your own mind." Instantly, Hui Neng became Enlightened. The full verse said: "All Bodhisattvas (Compassionate Ones) should develop a pure mind which clings to no-thing whatsoever; and so he should establish it."

spidergoat

His Holiness Hui Neng, who became the great Sixth Patriarch of Ch'an (Japanese Zen) was a poor illiterate peasant boy from Hsin Chou of Kwangtung. One day, after he had delivered firewood to a shop, he overheard a man reciting the following line from the "Diamond Sutra" - "Depending upon no-thing, you must find your own mind." Instantly, Hui Neng became Enlightened.
ok now we are getting somewhere
First point - spiritual qualification is not dependant on material calculations of erudition

The full verse said: "All Bodhisattvas (Compassionate Ones) should develop a pure mind which clings to no-thing whatsoever; and so he should establish it."
Now we just have to work on the "it"

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p42/lightgigantic/Toon-56.gif

That's your problem.

That's your problem.
and yours too if you have a lack of language to express it, especially if you want to "establish it"

Establish what?

Establish what?

The full verse said: "All Bodhisattvas (Compassionate Ones) should develop a pure mind which clings to no-thing whatsoever; and so he should establish it."

You are analyzing this as if it were a Christian scripture, the approach is completely different. I already know what they are talking about. He should establish pure mind by using no concepts or ideas whatsoever. In other words, there is nothing you can do but get out of the way. Meditate to cultivate this state of mind where literal thoughts fade away. Methods and concepts are useless. As is trying to concieve of Zen Buddhism as a metaphysical contruction.

If you are trying to show that Zen is not logical or rational, I agree. But people don't accept Zen on faith, there are no social imperitives, no deeply held beliefs.

spidergoat

You are analyzing this as if it were a Christian scripture, the approach is completely different. I already know what they are talking about. He should establish pure mind by using no concepts or ideas whatsoever. In other words, there is nothing you can do but get out of the way.
Out of the way of what?
If you can't determine that how can you determine whether you are in the way or out of it?

Meditate to cultivate this state of mind where literal thoughts fade away. Methods and concepts are useless. As is trying to concieve of Zen Buddhism as a metaphysical contruction.
This is not helpful - to begin with it blurs the distinction between a practicing buddhist and a non-practicing buddhist - unless there is a metaphysical construct, or application, there is no means for progress - earlier before we were getting somewhere when you brought up the topic of how an illiterate child of a peasant in china acquired an exalted status in spiritual life.

If you are trying to show that Zen is not logical or rational, I agree. But people don't accept Zen on faith, there are no social imperitives, no deeply held beliefs.
faith always comes into play when there is gap that has to be bridged between one's current state and the fruits of knowledge

The golden rule is the only principle i follow, the simple act of treating others as you yourself would want to be treated.
Im not sure if this makes me 'spiritual' but im pretty sure it helps manifest the world we all would want to live in.
So yeah, self-awareness/awareness of others are pretty key ingredients to leading a holistic or spiritual life id say.

Out of the way of what?
The kind of linear, concept driven philosophical edifice that you are attempting to create in this thread.

'You cannot attain it by thinking, you cannot grasp it by not thinking.' Or you could say, you cannot catch hold of the meaning of Zen by doing something about it, but equally, you cannot see into its meaning by doing nothing about it, because both are, in their different ways, attempts to move from where you are now, here, to somewhere else, and the point is that we come to an understanding of this, what I call suchness, only through being completely here. And no means are necessary to be completely here. Neither active means on the one hand, nor passive means on the other. Because in both ways, you are trying to move away from the immediate now. But you see, it's difficult to understand language like that. And to understand what all that is about, there is really one absolutely necessary prerequisite, and this is to stop thinking.

-Alan Watts

...Any ideas?

Think, Appreciate, Meditate, Hallucinate.

and this is to stop thinking.[/I]

-Alan Watts

I guess the issue is whether this is actually practical or possible

Think, Appreciate, Meditate, Hallucinate.
your fourth recommendation tends to cause problems

The golden rule is the only principle i follow, the simple act of treating others as you yourself would want to be treated.
Im not sure if this makes me 'spiritual' but im pretty sure it helps manifest the world we all would want to live in.
So yeah, self-awareness/awareness of others are pretty key ingredients to leading a holistic or spiritual life id say.
Do you think there is anything to be learnt from having such a view (or do you think the beginning and end of such an outlook is just on the terms that it makes dealings in this world more amiable)

Do you think there is anything to be learnt from having such a view (or do you think the beginning and end of such an outlook is just on the terms that it makes dealings in this world more amiable)
I guess the lesson is seeing that everyone has inherent value in and of themselves (not just in relation to you). Thats what i take from it anyway.

I guess the issue is whether this is actually practical or possible

You know when you are playing a sport, or getting into something that you are really good at, and you lose the sense of trying to figure things out? Your actions come spontaneously, without effort?

your fourth recommendation tends to cause problems

It's only problematic if the hallucination is accepted as objective truth.

I guess the lesson is seeing that everyone has inherent value in and of themselves (not just in relation to you). Thats what i take from it anyway.
Is it that something can be valuable if it has no relation to us, or under such circumstances is the assignment of value fully dependant on some type of relationship with something greater than the valuer?

You know when you are playing a sport, or getting into something that you are really good at, and you lose the sense of trying to figure things out? Your actions come spontaneously, without effort?
these things however are a refinement of mind, not an absence of mind.

It's only problematic if the hallucination is accepted as objective truth.
the very word "hallucination" tends to fall in the folds of such a definiton - unless of course you advocate that all that exists is subjective reality 9thus everything can be equally disregarded) ....... which is also problematic

Is it that something can be valuable if it has no relation to us, or under such circumstances is the assignment of value fully dependant on some type of relationship with something greater than the valuer?
Im not entirely sure what youre asking me to be honest, could you re-phrase?

Im not entirely sure what youre asking me to be honest, could you re-phrase?

Sure

If something has no ultimate connection or relationship to us, how is it possible to determine its inherant value?
What would be the contribution of value of an object that has no connection to us?

Or is it only possible for us to determine the value of something if we are aware of its realtionship or similarity to us?

For instance I may not live in china and may not value chinese people - but then the next moment I rationalise that chinese people also have value because they are, after all people, and I am also a person - in other words value takes effect when I determine the similarity between myself and the object. And in the absence of forming such a concept it is impossible to raise one's view any higher than mere indifference.

Anyway this is my view - I was just trying to ask you without spilling myself out, which is why the q seems a bit obscure.

apologies
:o

The object of Zen is so near we mostly ignore it. The standards of value we usually employ are created by culture and don't apply. Trying to convince you of it's value would be misleading, since it has no practical value. Everything truly wonderful in life has no practical value; a sunset, a summer day, a rainbow.

The object of Zen is so near we mostly ignore it. The standards of value we usually employ are created by culture and don't apply. Trying to convince you of it's value would be misleading, since it has no practical value. Everything truly wonderful in life has no practical value; a sunset, a summer day, a rainbow.
There are many values that transcend cultural definitions - these can be immediate things like the value one places on one's own existence (given choice to live or die, given a normal environment, people would unanimously choose to live) or extended things like our inability to exist totally independant of the environment.

Sure

If something has no ultimate connection or relationship to us, how is it possible to determine its inherant value?
What would be the contribution of value of an object that has no connection to us?

Or is it only possible for us to determine the value of something if we are aware of its realtionship or similarity to us?

Basically i work off the assumption that what ever im looking at has its own sense of value towards itself and treat accordingly. Now that assumption may sometimes be wrong, something i percieve to have value in relation to itself may not atall. However that still doesnt prevent me placing inherent worth on that person/creature/being.
I guess its a case of projecting yourself into another's situation and asking yourself how you would want to be treated in their position.
Even if you assume wrongly that they want to be treated with respect i still feel its a far better mistake to make than to treat someone with a lack of respect when in fact what they really wanted was to be treated compassionately.
And as i already stated, even if someone has no self-value it still does not prevent me for placing value apon them

Hope that makes sense! :)

the very word "hallucination" tends to fall in the folds of such a definiton - unless of course you advocate that all that exists is subjective reality 9thus everything can be equally disregarded) ....... which is also problematic

in the folds of what definition?

in the folds of what definition?
since hallucinations occur through the medium of our sense perception - the same medium that we perceive the objective world through - it becomes tricky to distinguish the two.

heliocentric
Basically i work off the assumption that what ever im looking at has its own sense of value towards itself and treat accordingly. Now that assumption may sometimes be wrong, something i percieve to have value in relation to itself may not atall. However that still doesnt prevent me placing inherent worth on that person/creature/being.
I guess its a case of projecting yourself into another's situation and asking yourself how you would want to be treated in their position.
Even if you assume wrongly that they want to be treated with respect i still feel its a far better mistake to make than to treat someone with a lack of respect when in fact what they really wanted was to be treated compassionately.
And as i already stated, even if someone has no self-value it still does not prevent me for placing value apon them

Hope that makes sense! :)


To use an example - what about french poodle owners who perceive the value in their dogs by grooming them in many ways which bear no value to a dog (giving them fashionable hair cuts and dressing them up in pants etc). In other words values systems that operate out of one's own need interests and concerns have the tendency to not tally and even disrupt the needs interests and concerns of others - hence such a value system is inherantly faulty

since hallucinations occur through the medium of our sense perception - the same medium that we perceive the objective world through - it becomes tricky to distinguish the two.

Sounds like an opportunity for a 'teacher' of spirituality to provide education on how to distinguish between the two.

Sounds like an opportunity for a 'teacher' of spirituality to provide education on how to distinguish between the two.

For a person who accepts the platform of their personal direct sense perception as the final last word in determining reality it is a difficult proposal

For a person who accepts the platform of their personal direct sense perception as the final last word in determining reality it is a difficult proposal

And certainly not impossible. I'll use myself for example. I have had rediculously robust and powerful hallucinations (naturally) since I was a child and I know how to distinguish between what is and isn't hallucination. I was lucky in this respect because the high frequency of these experiences let me make alot of observations and experiment. I suspect there are many others in the same boat and I am willing to bet some of them have some pretty good teaching skills.

And certainly not impossible. I'll use myself for example. I have had rediculously robust and powerful hallucinations (naturally) since I was a child and I know how to distinguish between what is and isn't hallucination. I was lucky in this respect because the high frequency of these experiences let me make alot of observations and experiment. I suspect there are many others in the same boat and I am willing to bet some of them have some pretty good teaching skills.

so how do you know that this message in quotation marks is/is not a hallucination

"the rain in spain falls mainly on the plain"

so how do you know that this message in quotation marks is/is not a hallucination

"the rain in spain falls mainly on the plain"

It's part of an experience that is consistent, persistent, and without contradiction.

It's part of an experience that is consistent, persistent, and without contradiction.

if you determine consistency, persistency and non contradictory thing s with your senses you have problems because the senses are not concsistent,persistent or without contradiction

if you determine consistency, persistency and non contradictory thing s with your senses you have problems because the senses are not concsistent,persistent or without contradiction

Your senses gain you access to information. Take that information and process it with your brain. Experiment, take several samples of an experience and think about if it is consistent, persistent, and non-contradictory.

Do you remember your dreams (I mean the sleeping thing)?

Your senses gain you access to information. Take that information and process it with your brain. Experiment, take several samples of an experience and think about if it is consistent, persistent, and non-contradictory.

Do you remember your dreams (I mean the sleeping thing)?
I don't remember my dreams so much when I am awake - but when I am asleep they appear factual
;)

I don't remember my dreams so much when I am awake - but when I am asleep they appear factual
;)

If you ever have the opportunity I want you to try something. When dreaming, take a look at some text in a book or something... look away for a moment, then look at that text again... repeat 5 times. The question that I would want you to answer is 'does the text stay the same'?

Should you have the opportunity to do this in a dream and remember the result, I think you'll have achived a way to discover one type of hallucination.

heliocentric

To use an example - what about french poodle owners who perceive the value in their dogs by grooming them in many ways which bear no value to a dog (giving them fashionable hair cuts and dressing them up in pants etc). In other words values systems that operate out of one's own need interests and concerns have the tendency to not tally and even disrupt the needs interests and concerns of others - hence such a value system is inherantly faulty
Well i think any value/belief/ideological system is prone to flaws but im not sure thats reason enough to not follow a principle such as the golden rule (if that is what youre suggesting).
I think theres also a big difference between placing value on a creature so as not to exploit/damage/destroy and placing value on a creature to the extent that you wish to interfere with that animals life because you feel you have that animal's best interests at heart.
Id also say the example you used illustrates how someone is really using another creature for their personal amusement rather than placing than any kind of value on that animal as it relates to the animals own sense of value.

It's part of an experience that is consistent, persistent, and without contradiction.
Isnt there a problem with that criteria though? if you experience something transitory which you have no mental point of reference to and which you never see the likes of again, youre going to outright assume youve hallucinated.
But people do and have experienced things very real which simply existed outside of our current model of reality at that specific time (fireballs, sprites, anomalous creatures).
I think theres a critical flaw in your reasoning.

If you ever have the opportunity I want you to try something. When dreaming, take a look at some text in a book or something... look away for a moment, then look at that text again... repeat 5 times. The question that I would want you to answer is 'does the text stay the same'?

Should you have the opportunity to do this in a dream and remember the result, I think you'll have achived a way to discover one type of hallucination.
When you are awake do you find that you sometimes lose things because you forget where you put them?
As heliocentric is indicating, there is no scope for advancing in knowledge with your view point, because everything that is non-anomolous is instantly disregarded

Well i think any value/belief/ideological system is prone to flaws but im not sure thats reason enough to not follow a principle such as the golden rule (if that is what youre suggesting).
I think theres also a big difference between placing value on a creature so as not to exploit/damage/destroy and placing value on a creature to the extent that you wish to interfere with that animals life because you feel you have that animal's best interests at heart.
Id also say the example you used illustrates how someone is really using another creature for their personal amusement rather than placing than any kind of value on that animal as it relates to the animals own sense of value.

Actually my point was that service to god stands as superior to service to humanity (the golden rule) - the reason is that distinguishing what is the value to be worked forward for their betterment is not so readily apparent since we do the viewing through our own perspective (soap opera script writers work on this a lot - the husband wants to benefit tthe wife but the wife claims she is not understood - the wife wants to benefit the son but the son claims he is not understood etc etc)

Isnt there a problem with that criteria though? if you experience something transitory which you have no mental point of reference to and which you never see the likes of again, youre going to outright assume youve hallucinated.
But people do and have experienced things very real which simply existed outside of our current model of reality at that specific time (fireballs, sprites, anomalous creatures).
I think theres a critical flaw in your reasoning.

If there is an anomolous event that happens too quickly then it's perfectly ok to declare that you don't know if the event was hallucinatory or not. The only critical flaw is the assumption that "I don't know" is not an option.

When you are awake do you find that you sometimes lose things because you forget where you put them?

Yep.

As heliocentric is indicating, there is no scope for advancing in knowledge with your view point, because everything that is non-anomolous is instantly disregarded

I think you might have fallen into the same cognitive trap that he did. If something anomolous occurs very quickly then you might miss the opportunity to make key observations as to whether or not the experience was hallucinatory. What you're left with is a simple "I don't know" scenario.

There is a SciForums member named Zanket and he was absolutely convinced that a particular hypnotherapist allowed him to experience previous lives. So, I offered to go to the exact same person, undergo the same experience, and provide feedback.

The sum of it was the hypnotherapist was able to induce varying combinations of sustained hypnogic hallucination as well as light lucid dreaming. While I was under, I tested the environments I found myself in. I found lack of consistency, persistency, as well as contradiction.

More importantly, I found a variety of definitive tell tale signs that I was hallucinating. While the entire experience was powerful, fulfilling, and just outright cool... it was nothing more than what my own mind was generating.

I presented my findings to Zanket and we actually have everything documented in one the threads. While my analysis didn't convince him that what he expereinced was hallucination, it did allow him to take the position of "I don't know" instead of asserting the fantastic as objective truth.

Actually my point was that service to god stands as superior to service to humanity (the golden rule)
But even if youre 'serving god' youre still projecting any number of assumptions onto your chosen diety. 'God wants me to do...xyandz', i think theres far more room for error and flawed logic (rather than superiorty) in living that kind of life.
I think the problem is you've no real way of knowing what god wants, where as you can actually observe that every organism wishes to survive, procreate, and live in good health.

[b]
- the reason is that distinguishing what is the value to be worked forward for their betterment is not so readily apparent since we do the viewing through our own perspective (soap opera script writers work on this a lot - the husband wants to benefit tthe wife but the wife claims she is not understood - the wife wants to benefit the son but the son claims he is not understood etc etc)
I think youre making it far more complex than it needs to be to be honest, organisms practically without exception want to be treated compassionately and to not be caused harm or pain. And that is all the golden rule suggests that you do.
It only becomes a problem when you begin to meddle and conclude that 'you know whats best!' for whoever or whatever it may be.
Although id argue that that that sort of treatment is moving far beyond what the golden rule lays out.

If there is an anomolous event that happens too quickly then it's perfectly ok to declare that you don't know if the event was hallucinatory or not. The only critical flaw is the assumption that "I don't know" is not an option.
Agreed. ;)

I think this whole forum is an excellent example of learning about the variants of spirituality.

However, speaking personally, spiritual experiences come from inner stillness and silence and a willingness to mentally let go... That may be a lot harder for many here.

Actually my point was that service to god stands as superior to service to humanity (the golden rule) - the reason is that distinguishing what is the value to be worked forward for their betterment is not so readily apparent since we do the viewing through our own perspective (soap opera script writers work on this a lot - the husband wants to benefit tthe wife but the wife claims she is not understood - the wife wants to benefit the son but the son claims he is not understood etc etc)

Mannava Seva, Madhava Seva - Service to man is service to God.

What's the use of meditating to serve God if the person next to is suffering?

Mannava Seva, Madhava Seva - Service to man is service to God.

What's the use of meditating to serve God if the person next to is suffering?
What is the use of viewing the (attempted) removal of the material conditons of
suffering as the topmost perfection of spiritual life in a world of birth, death, old age and disease?

Mannava Seva, Madhava Seva - Service to man is service to God.

What's the use of meditating to serve God if the person next to is suffering?The only way you can learn anything spiritualy is by experience. Spirituality is not something quantifiably, and not subject to analysis. At least thats the general premise

Chatha

The only way you can learn anything spiritualy is by experience.
Then what is the relationship between spirituality and scripture?

Spirituality is not something quantifiably, and not subject to analysis.
If i told you I was a spiritual person and that there is nothing wrong with murdering men, women and children of a particular race/social/geographical class, how would that strike you?

At least thats the general premise
God may be unable to be approached with 100% understanding of his complete nature, but the means by which one can determine the degree that one perceives something of the nature of god is certainly up for analysis

I agree with Ayodhya, what ever defintion of spirituality youre working from if its not expressed in your actions then then how spiritual or non-spiritual you are is absolutely meaningless.

I agree with Ayodhya, what ever defintion of spirituality youre working from if its not expressed in your actions then then how spiritual or non-spiritual you are is absolutely meaningless.
service to god is not capable of being expressed by actions?

service to god is not capable of being expressed by actions?
No im saying it is, ;) although i wouldnt use the phrase service to god personally that sounds too much like a master/servant relationship to me, in which you simply do your best guess of what you think master wants. Rather than looking inside yourself and asking what needs to be done.
Btw i dont personally believe in god (im agnostic), i also dont have any fixed ideas about what god might or might not be. So spirituality for me (hmm still hate that word somewhat lol) is simply understanding yourself and others to the best of your ability while treating everything you come across with the dignity you would expect to be treated with in turn. Basically its about acting in a manner most likely to manifest eutopia for all, or at least trying too.