deleted in protest to really poor moderation

I guess one of the best ways to find out how conditioned you are is to look at your parents...and then look at yourself.

Are you the same, different...how much different.

Then, its time to figure out how much youve been conditioned by your peers, from ages 7 to 21...same or different.

Its one of those questions that people hate to ask themselves, because the mentality you ask WITH, is itself part of the conditioning.

well conditioning can have many different levels. Say you move to a new school and you have no friends, then one day you are invited to a party. You go to the party, meet new friends, stick with them for a long time, etc etc... If you continue to associate yourself with those friends you will inherently pick up some of thier qualities as a group, or some of the groups qualities will rub off on you and visa versa. You will start to act more like the other members of the group, you may all share the same group behaviors. Say you are white and everyone in your group of friends is black. Regardless of your cultural background, you will start to develop the properties and characteristics of the people in the group you associate with. The group you associate with might even be a sub culture of the culture in the area, with many other people in the same area sharing the same intrests and hobbies, etc. The same goes for the military. I have a cousin that is in the marines and he says that they condition soldiers to kill. Killing someone, or war, is not a natural instictual act for human beings. Self preservation is hardwired into us, generally war means putting that aspect of self preservation at risk, at least to some degree. You do not join the military without thinking you might be sent to war to kill or be killed. Soldiers are trained, or "conditioned" to kill without remorse, they are trained to get the job done. If you are shot at you shoot back. If you are faced with a choice, shoot first and ask questions later. Kill of be killed. My cousin said that in the marines, all of the recruits replace everyday words like hello, bye, thanks, good, etc, with the word kill. These collective actions of conditioning are a part of the militarys goal to make more effiecient killers in war. I mean what good are a bunch of soldiers that never fire back when being shot at? So I would say that soldiers are definatly conditioned to the extreme. In the case of minor conditioning, they could be made to feel the same, but it would take much more time. I think conditioning, in minor ways or large ways is equally effective, the deciding factor is simply time. Since the military does not have years and years to mold their recruits into killing machines they must go the fast route.

I'm very conditioned, and most of us are. It's a product of culture and society. I don't know how to get around it besides become a hermit.

Any free thinker is not conditioned.

I am interested in the power of conditioning in even minor ways

so how conditioned are you?

Do you know what behaviours are yours by choice and those by conditioning?

Do you know what conditioning is?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_conditioning
You, my dear, have nothing to worry about.
You are as pure as arctic snow.

Your love and acts and opinions are clean and devoid of any ulterior motives or selfish desires.
I only hope to become the ‘victim’ of such virginal cleanliness.

Any free thinker is not conditioned.Excellent point.
Now, follow up the point with a description of what a “free-thinker” is.

I offer some unwelcome guidance using the words of another:

“I fear nothing, I hope for nothing; I am free.” - Kazantzakis

What of Nietzsche’s free-spirits?
Why do they walk alone?

Presumably they are bitter, ill, anti-social, bastards who can’t get laid….but what do you think, beyond what the herd says?

Think.
What is freedom?
Imagine freedom as it would be in an absolute state then look around you to see the degrees by which it manifests itself in this ‘dissatisfied universe’.

Perception is conditioned.
Thinking is conditioned.
Language is conditioned.
Everything we "know" is conditioned.

Habits.

Surely, this is true in our youth. However, this is not the case anymore for those who think for themselves. In fact, even if both the conditioned person and a free thinker arrive at Destination B, he who reached B on his own is not conditioned.

Excellent point.
Now, follow up the point with a description of what a “free-thinker” is.

I offer some unwelcome guidance using the words of another:



What of Nietzsche’s free-spirits?
Why do they walk alone?

Presumably they are bitter, ill, anti-social, bastards who can’t get laid….but what do you think, beyond what the herd says?

Think.
What is freedom?
Imagine freedom as it would be in an absolute state then look around you to see the degrees by which it manifests itself in this ‘dissatisfied universe’.
I'll sit down and type out a response later tonight - I am off to eat dinner and eat my flan I made for us

Your mental process is just a result of conditioning that your own life experiences impose on you. It's adaptation, the governing factor of evolution. Everything that we do is based on the result of some other experience. We learn from our experiences, and condition ourselves. A revolutionist is a free thinker. But the reason that they're a revolutionary is because their experiences conditioned to be.

I know I am conditioned when my actual response does not meet with my desired response and a battle ensues.

classic conditoned responses for the population at large may include:

* the inability to say 'no' (conditoned to be compliant and agreeable)

*the inability to ask for a payrise (conditoned not to talk about money or ask for any, conditoned to 'make do' to be 'satisfied with your lot)

*the inability to ask for a date (conditoned to avoid rejection and failure)

and so on and so forth

I shall try NOT to conditon my kids to be selfless and proud to the point of poverty and misery

rather better to develop the natural selfish traits required to prosper and enjoy life.

Now I see what you were getting at.

As time goes on the inhibitions wear away, as does everything else, so it gets to be easier to inflict a desire, or to grump about aversions.
The problem is rather that the desires also wear away.
One needs then to look around for a sufficient desire, to persuade the heart to beat.

--- Ron.

I'm lucky with regard to not being conditioned with regard to 'conformity' as a kid, but conditioning re attitudes to money etc, and asking for help, declining help when offered etc. These were taught by way of manners but they have NOT benefitted me. I am reconditioning myself to 'ask' for and to accept help if I need it, but it is damn hard doing so, damn hard. The conditioned independance is fierce.

I'm lucky with regard to not being conditioned with regard to 'conformity' as a kid, but conditioning re attitudes to money etc, and asking for help, declining help when offered etc. These were taught by way of manners but they have NOT benefitted me. I am reconditioning myself to 'ask' for and to accept help if I need it, but it is damn hard doing so, damn hard. The conditioned independance is fierce.

I know exactly what you mean; I'm the same way myself. A woman and a dolly can do anything a man can do and better, etc. :p

I 'fear' people asking favours of me, incase I offend when I decline, why?

Why can't I just decline guilt free, what conditioning makes refusal so hard to accept?

The fact that we are "victims" of association is both our strength and achilles heel - we have the opportunity for improvement through good association and also vice versa -

There is a saying popular in some spanish speaking countries -"If I want to know you I will know your friends"

If you want to work out where you are I guess it is time to smell the cheese

It is a tricky business.

Women especially need and want to be controlled, to be husbanded, but they can't afford to submit to anything that comes along, so they resist the control to force it to prove itself, which is not to say that they never do give in to anything that comes along.

--- Ron.

I was raised to be independant, and my own nature was never to submit to control. But I found once control was relinquished willingly I liked it. But that is the key word, willingly.

There is a saying popular in some spanish speaking countries -"If I want to know you I will know your friends".LOL! :D
You do know that this idiom does exist in many other languages??
Most, I guess, derive from Aesop (he of his fables) - 6th Centure Greece?
"You shall know a man by the company he keeps" was a moral of one his stories.

Just found it funny that you might think it is limited to some Spanish-speaking countries. :)

I was raised to be independant, and my own nature was never to submit to control. But I found once control was relinquished willingly I liked it. But that is the key word, willingly.

Yet, you willingly relinquish control to your imaginary 'forces?' The key word, imaginary.

That non sequitur reminds me of this.

To "willingly" lose control is to deny the control.

That is why some men feel so threatened by women.

---- Ron.

I could say in the scenario I had in mind that I was in control of being controlled. Or rather I wasn't controlled an external responsibility previously mine was.

I shall ponder more on that, I see the contradiction, basically I permitted an illusion of control for the party participating

thus the conditoning had not lapsed after all.....

kids like boundaries though, control makes them feel safe, that transfers to adult hood. I shall ponder on what areas I am in denial of control

Yet, you willingly relinquish control to your imaginary 'forces?' The key word, imaginary.

Have we met? No I didn't think so, thus as I have NEVER made any claim that reflects the above, I can assume you think yourself psychic, you are clearly nuts.

are u capable of contributing to a thread question and not personalising everything? No I didn't think so. you are conditioned to present a face of supreme idiocy, perhaps you were raised in a circus?

I'll sit down and type out a response later tonight - I am off to eat dinner and eat my flan I made for usSave some of the leftovers for later.

Freedom then:
It seems to me that a concept becomes clearer when it is exaggerated or pushed to an imagined extreme.
Then some of the ambiguities are minimized and the picture is refined.

In the case of freedom let us imagine its absolute state, if we can - if we cannot let us imagine it to its most extreme manifestation that we can.

What would characterize freedom?

First let us mention that freedom is like saying power or eternal or perfect. It would be another way of defining the same thing: an absolute, inert state of non-existence.
But this too needs clarifying so let us skip it, for now.

The first thing that would characterize freedom is independence; an absence of dependence.
In its absolute form an absence of dependence on anything, in its lesser states an absence of dependence on fewer and fewer things or others.

Right away we see that man cannot be born free or, perhaps, even attain freedom while being a product of something else.
When I am born I am born dependant on something and someone.
I need means I depend on something and I then care about it and desire it and want it and NEED it.
Heidegger, if I’m not mistaken, in 'Being and Time' characterizes consciousness as the state of care.
I care first and foremost about myself.
This is my primary and underlying care in any interaction.

I breath means the same, I desire the same; I love, I hate means I depend on something and am affected by it, I am conditioned by it and so I care about it.
Emotion is the brain’s conditioning to react a certain way to stimuli for the sake of its own welfare - genetic or otherwise.
This is why emotion has such a powerful inebriating affect on reason.
Reason cares about knowing truth and self. Emotion cares about surviving truth and self.
Both are concerned about existence but come about it from different perspectives.
The emotional mind thinks that truth should be beneficial to self and denies anything that contradicts self-interests.
The reasonable mind thinks that ‘truth’ should be known as clearly as possible so as to use it towards self-interest.

Automatically we see that freedom would be the opposite of this care or characterized by indifference.
We begin to see now the connection between courage, confidence and power/indifference.
We see why it is so attractive to man. The truly confident man and the courageous man is the one that cares the least about the consequences of his actions.
Being confident means I am not concerned about you or the outcome of our interaction because I have an alternative or whatever….
Fear is caring too much.
Love and hate then become reactions to this fear. One pushes away and avoids. The other binds with another to shield and protect itself.

Indifference is the absence of care, dependence including caring for one’s own existence - if that is possible at all.

To be totally free would entail being free of all care, all concern, all attachment and dependence. No hope no fears no emotions.

The truly free would be unaffected, self-reliant, self-determining and eternal.
We see now the absurdity of a loving, caring omniscient, omnipotent, eternal, free god.
To be concerned is to be affected by another or something other than self and so, this hypothetical perfect being, is dependant on it and affected by it and so not free from it.
To be attached is to be dependant on what you are attached to and so not free.
If I am attached to another, either though love or hate, or if I am attached to the state of living I cannot say that I am totally free and so my every thought and opinion is prejudiced by this attachment.

But consciousness depends on something, as well,, it depends on life to manifest itself - and life is the state of constant needing/suffering.
Therefore …….just like any other absolute in a universe that knows no such thing, freedom is only possible in degree. To be conscious is to automatically be dependant, even if it is to the state of living.

When we make a value judgment we are subjectively comparing two states or another with ourselves or with a perceived average.
So, we often say I am free and mean that, from what I can determine, I am freer than him or them.

The problem with unravelling conditioning, is that one does not know where conditioning begins, and the self ends.

That is to say, as we are all raised as children, and nurture has played a role in our development as persons, then it is impossible to excise "conditioning" without fundamentally changing ourselves. So long as one is content with how one is, this seems foolish.

The problem with unravelling conditioning, is that one does not know where conditioning begins, and the self ends.

That is to say, as we are all raised as children, and nurture has played a role in our development as persons, then it is impossible to excise "conditioning" without fundamentally changing ourselves. So long as one is content with how one is, this seems foolish.

"Don't fix what 'aint broke" my mantra

However, can you identify with the 'struggle' I mention when trying to do what you want when your condiotning is pushing you to opposite way?

Saying yes when you want to say no?

I am suspicious of people keen to tell me how content they are with themselves.

Why do they think I need to know that, I wonder.

--- Ron.

reinforcing the belief of course ;)

"when people post on the internet they are not so much doing so to convince others of what they think but to convince themselves. "

(I read that somehwere)

I think alot of the stress that some folks experience comes from a fierce inner determination not to be conditioned and that causes discomfort from people in their realm... then the guilt trips start and ambivalence sets in and the defense mechanisms build up... I think that blindly subscribing to society's norms without exploring your own personal principles and values is the ultimate in conditioning... might make the road less rocky but the scenery is not nearly as enticing as exploding some of the myths we live by... subvert the dominant paradigm if it doesn't float your boat

TheoryOfRelativity:

"However, can you identify with the 'struggle' I mention when trying to do what you want when your condiotning is pushing you to opposite way?

Saying yes when you want to say no?"

I do not think I can appreciate the struggle fully, but then again, I tend to view things in regards to trading. That is to say, all life is a trade, an exchange. Therefore if I feel obliged to do something, I only feel obliged if I feel I should get something out of it, even if it is something less tangible than something. I also attempt, as a matter of course, to seek the best end and to encourage myeslf to greater heights. In regards to help, for instance, is not so much that I am against asking for help, only that I rather learn to do it myself in order that such a thing need not come up. I prefer such self-reliance to dependence, strength to weakness, knowledge to ignorance, et cetera, et cetera.

I also imagine that I, as a person, reject more conditioning rather than accept it, specifically from cultural sources.