The following account of Holocaust Denial is derived largely from Michael Shermer's excellent book Why People Believe Weird Things.

Methodology of Holocaust Denial

How do Holocaust Deniers argue? Here's a brief summary:

1. Concentrate on opponents' weak points (e.g. where evidence is weak), while simultaneously providing no contrary evidence themselves.
2. Exploit errors made by some scholars, and assert that because some of their conclusions were wrong, therefore all of the conclusions must be wrong.
3. Use out-of-context quotations and documents to buttress their position.
4. Mistake honest debates among scholars about details of a particular field as a dispute over the existence of the entire field.
5. Focus on what is not known, and ignore what is known. Emphasize data which supports their argument, while ignoring all data that refutes it.

These argumentative modes are not unique to holocaust denial, of course. For example, compare Creationist arguments against evolution. Creationists use all of the same methods.

How do we know the Holocaust happened?

Short answer: all the evidence converges to support this conclusion.

Deniers think that if they can "disprove" just one piece of evidence of the Holocaust, the whole edifice will crumble. However, the Holocaust was not a single event. Nobody ever claimed that any single piece of evidence proves that the Holocaust occurred. The Holocaust is proved by millions of pieces of evidence which all converge on one single conclusion. That evidence includes:


Hundreds of thousands of letters, memos, orders, blueprints, bills, speeches, articles, memoirs and confessions.
Thousands of accounts from survivors, Kapos, Sonderkommandos, SS Guards, commandants, local townspeople and upper-echelon Nazis.
Photographs, including official military and press photographs and films, civilian photos, secret photos taken by prisoners and guards, aerial photos, German and Allied film footage.
Physical artifacts found at the sites of concentration camps, work camps, death camps.
Demographic evidence: the very absence of all the people the deniers claim were not killed.


Anatomy of a Holocaust denier

E = evidence. D = denier response.

E1: A survivor says he heard that other prisoners were being gassed at Auschwitz.
D: Survivor accounts are exaggerated, and their memories are unsound anyway.
E2: Another survivor tells a different story with the same core fact of gassings at Auschwitz, independently.
D: Rumours floated around Auschwitz, so it isn't surprising that many people had the same wrong impressions.
E3: Confession from an SS Guard that he saw people being gassed and cremated at Auschwitz.
D: The confession was extracted under Allied torture following the war.
E4: A Jewish member of the Sonderkommando tells how he helped the Nazis move dead bodies from the gas chambers to the crematoria.
D: Somderkommando accounts make no sense - the numbers of bodies they report can't be right (on physical grounds), and their memories of dates can't be correct.
E5: Confession from the camp commandant that he orchestrated the gassings.
D: He was tortured by the Allies, and would have said anything.
E6: The commandant's autobiography, written after his trial and sentencing to death, when he had nothing to gain by lying.
D: Nobody knows why some people confess to ridiculous things, but they do. Maybe he was unhinged.
E7: Blueprints of gas chambers and crematoria.
D: These rooms were used strictly for delousing prisoners and for disposal of people killed by sickness - not for systematic extermination.
E8: Huge orders of Zyklon-B gas delivered to concentration camps.
D: This was only ever used for delousing all those diseased inmates.
E9: Speeches by Hitler, Himmler, Frank, Goebbels, etc. advocating the extermination of the Jews.
D: They didn't really mean "extermination". They meant "deporting them out of the Reich".
E10: Adolf Eichmann's confession at his trial.
D: He was coerced.
E11: The German Government's admission after the war that the Nazis had a policy of exterminating European Jews.
D: They lied in order that they could join the family of nations.
E12: Millions of Jews seem to be missing.
D: They all went to Siberia, Israel or Los Angeles.
E13: Why can't the Jews find their missing family members?
D: They can, and do - there are many stories of families being reunited decades later.
E14: Photos and newsreels of the dead and starving on liberation of the camps.
D: All the prisoners were treated well until the Allies cut the German supply lines, preventing food from reaching the camps. The Nazis tried their best to save the lives of the prisoners, but it was impossible.
E15: Accounts by prisoners of brutality of the Nazis: random shootings, freezing temperatures, crowded conditions, death marches, beatings.
D: That's the nature of war. The Nazis were no worse than any other nation in wartime.

Note that, at this point, the Holocaust denier has come up with 15 post hoc rationalisations which seek to explain away the evidence, piece by piece. The denier demands that the historian disprove each of these rationalisations.

However, the convergence of evidence already meets the historian's burden of proof. The historian never claimed that each individual piece of evidence independently proves the Holocaust. The evidence must be examined as a whole, and that is something the denier will never do, because it undermines his pre-formed conclusion that the Holocaust never happened.

Yes, I've heard the arguments in a related thread.

e.g. how do you know they were gassed and did not die in the war?
and this guy did not even know how many Jews had been killed.

He refused to believe the photographic evidence and eyewitness accounts ( manufactured), wanted to see written documentation from Hitler or other proof that positively indicated a link between the gassed Jews and Hitler. When one poster suggested that the evidence may have been destroyed by the Germans he immeditely turned the whole thing into propaganda. We had to actually give up on him beacause he simply refused to see anything that subverted his premise.

:rolleyes:

Wow James, you've just outlined the major holes in a Holocaust parrots argumentation! Thanks. From now on, you don't even need to pull the same old BS arguments out 'proving' the Holocaust, you merely need to look at that list for my response.

i believe the holocaust happened because of the numbering system used on the jews can be verified.

why is this becoming such an issue now? could it be that the vast majority of the death camp survivors has died?

This is funny shit:


Note that, at this point, the Holocaust denier has come up with 15 post hoc rationalisations which seek to explain away the evidence, piece by piece. The denier demands that the historian disprove each of these rationalisations.

Trust James to quote an article which demonstrates a blatant ignorance of what a post hoc logic fallacy consists of. And its also ironical that a Holocaust parrot accuses Holocaust diminishers of engaging in post hoc.

Perhaps Holocaust parrots can start by explaining how 'Jews are missing, so they MUST have been gassed' is less ad-hoc than saying 'Jews are missing, so they MUST have died due to typhoid and starvation'.

Also explain how 'Well, we found no official documentation from Hitler because the Nazis destroyed it all' is less ad hoc than saying 'Hitler didn't order a Holocaust'?

WTF IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE?! You're the most fucking hypocritical dipsticks in existence. You could apply one set of logic to your opponent's arguments, and then neglect to apply them to your own arguments. That's double standards.

The difference is that I acknowledge that I don't know for sure. However, by pointing out the alternatives that Holocaust parrots refuse to consider, I demostrate the Holohoax for what it is... conjecture.

what american president said "i want every american to see this place, people say we don't know what we are fighting for but now they can see what they are fighting against"?
the above is a paraphrase of a qoute by an american president after touring a liberated death camp.

Holocaust diminishers
what are you saying here mountainhare?
the holocaust happened but it was not as extreme as depicted?

what are you saying here mountainhare?
the holocaust happened but it was not as extreme as depicted?

For Christ's sake, I've explained my stance to you numbskulls time and time again. Check previous threads on which I commented.

mountainhare:

You're very upset and defensive.

I'm glad I got you to start thinking. :)

mountainhare:

You're very upset and defensive.

I'm glad I got you to start thinking.

OMG, OMG, TROLL! :p

- N

James R:

You're very upset and defensive.

Irritated and bewildered, more like. There's no need to be on the defensive, since I'm not being attacked.


I'm glad I got you to start thinking.

No need. I ALWAYS think.

Ahhh, baiting of morons. What fun.



Perhaps Holocaust parrots can start by explaining how 'Jews are missing, so they MUST have been gassed' is less ad-hoc than saying 'Jews are missing, so they MUST have died due to typhoid and starvation'.
Actually, I think most people say "Jews are missing, so the records, eye witness statements, bodies, etc etc, show that they were shot, gassed, starved to death and died of disease.

Oh, and do you know who set up what are generally thought to be the first cocnentration camps, and the results of the actions?


Also explain how 'Well, we found no official documentation from Hitler because the Nazis destroyed it all' is less ad hoc than saying 'Hitler didn't order a Holocaust'?

Sure, Hitler probably didnt "order" a holocaust. But he made damn sure everyone knew that was what he wanted.

This is funny shit:

WTF IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE?! You're the most fucking hypocritical dipsticks in existence. You could apply one set of logic to your opponent's arguments, and then neglect to apply them to your own arguments. That's double standards.

Here you are; what took you so long??
Obviously we have a lot to learn from you; see your next quote.

The difference is that I acknowledge that I don't know for sure. However, by pointing out the alternatives that Holocaust parrots refuse to consider, I demostrate the Holohoax for what it is... conjecture.

You are obviously a very opened minded invidual; the side effect of that, I am afraid, is that your brains have fallen out.

I don't usually get personal, but how ANYONE can rationalize his way out of mass murder is beyond me. As I told you in the other thread, pay a visit to the Holocaust museum in D.C.; get accurate factual information, not opinions, conjecture, notions, hypotheses or gobbledygook. You do not seem to know the difference between rational and rationalization. You might also want to consider Logic 101.

Here is a link to the Holocaust images ( in case you forgot):
http://www.parascope.com/gallery/galleryitems/holocaust/index.htm

Makes me go totally fucking mad just looking at those pictures, even tho i've seen most of them before.

I cannot get into the mentality of a holocaust denier, someone like mountainhare.

What exactly are you trying to defend mountainhare? Where some of your family nazi sympathisers or are you one?

What ever your argument is, it fucking disgusts me.

Here you are; what took you so long??
Obviously we have a lot to learn from you; see your next quote.



You are obviously a very opened minded invidual; the side effect of that, I am afraid, is that your brains have fallen out.

I don't usually get personal, but how ANYONE can rationalize his way out of mass murder is beyond me. As I told you in the other thread, pay a visit to the Holocaust museum in D.C.; get accurate factual information, not opinions, conjecture, notions, hypotheses or gobbledygook. You do not seem to know the difference between rational and rationalization. You might also want to consider Logic 101.

Here is a link to the Holocaust images ( in case you forgot):
http://www.parascope.com/gallery/galleryitems/holocaust/index.htm


firstly before anyone says anything i do not deny the holocaust but posting images does nothing to the people who deny it, their argument mostly is they are doctored or set up

Makes me go totally fucking mad just looking at those pictures, even tho i've seen most of them before.

I cannot get into the mentality of a holocaust denier, someone like mountainhare.

What exactly are you trying to defend mountainhare? Where some of your family nazi sympathisers or are you one?

What ever your argument is, it fucking disgusts me.


I know what you mean; I went ot the museum last year and I if you see the pictures of the starved emaciated people, oh God. It's unbelievable. Although I had some background knowledge of the Holocaust before I went there, the extent of the horror and lunacy, the "experiments" done on the people was a complete shock to me.

And now this. Its like a violation of all those who suffered and died, over and over again.

Mr. Johnson’s theory, part quoted below, is at least as well supported by the evidence as Mountainhare’s “no holocaust” theory.

“As shown in a map published by Johnson, the known world is as circular and as flat as a phonograph record. The North Pole is at the center. At the outer edge lies the southern ice, reputed to be a wall 150 feet high; no one has ever crossed it, and therefore what lies beyond is unknown. The sun and moon … are only about 32 miles in diameter. They circle above the earth in the vicinity of the equator, and their apparent rising and setting are tricks of perspective, like railroad tracks that appear to meet in the distance. The moon shines by its own light and is not eclipsed by the earth. Rather, lunar eclipses are caused by an unseen dark body occasionally passing in front of the moon. …”

From:
www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/fe-scidi.htm

Perhaps Mountainhare is a sock puppet for Mr. Johnson? Their rules of evidence are very unique and seem identical. I.e. all the human reports, tons of documents and photos, submitted that contradict their view are just deliberately fabricated tricks or confused witness reports.

And now this. Its like a violation of all those who suffered and died, over and over again.
i have read accounts where the nazis would make these people stand at attention in the freezing cold butt naked for hours.

and you are correct, denying the holocaust is a major slap in the face of those who perished.

I was enjoying my evening drink and thinking about Mr. Johnson's "dark body" and the different phases of the moon, one now seen low outside my window. Sure looks big and close. He may be right. (See my post two below for Mr. Johnson's theory.)

Clearly his dark body must also be about 32 miles in diameter to shaddow the moon as it does. Even our largest teloscopes have failed to detect the dark body, so neither sun shine nor moon shine* reflect off the dark body. Hence, it must be like the "dark visitor" of my book. I.e. a black hole as only black holes have absolutely zero reflectivity.

Many who post here that black holes can not be points, with no volume will be encouraged by Mr. Johnson evidence also. Perhaps his society should be more inclusive and gain mutual support from those posters here, who already seem to have no problems with disputing standard physical theory and evidence.
---------------------------------------------
*After I drink this in a little more, I probably will join up too. :rolleyes:

I was enjoying my evening drink and thinking about Mr. Johnson's "dark body" and the different phases of the moon, one now seen low outside my window. Sure looks big and close. He may be right. (See my post two below for Mr. Johnson's theory.)

Clearly his dark body must also be about 32 miles in diameter to shaddow the moon as it does. Even our largest teloscopes have failed to detect the dark body, so neither sun shine nor moon shine* reflect off the dark body. Hence, it must be like the "dark visitor" of my book. I.e. a black hole as only black holes have absolutely zero reflectivity.

Many who post here that black holes can not be points, with no volume will be encouraged by Mr. Johnson evidence also. Perhaps his society should be more inclusive and gain mutual support from those posters here, who already seem to have no problems with disputing standard physical theory and evidence.
---------------------------------------------
*After I drink this in a little more, I probably will join up too. :rolleyes:


What are you having?

Gimme some :p

What are you having?
Gimme some :pDid you see my correction of MetaTron's errors about the distillation process? Or any of my many post in several threads about alcohol as fuel? I have also occasionally mentioned that I grew up in West Virginia's hills. With these clues, I will let you guess. :cool:

PS you are welcome to some, but be careful - it has not fully cooled so just sip for the first hour or so. Then even a fresh batch won't hurt. :D

guthrie:

Ahhh, baiting of morons. What fun.

I know! It's fun to watch Holohoax parrots such as yourself flock to this thread. :D


Actually, I think most people say "Jews are missing, so the records, eye witness statements, bodies, etc etc, show that they were shot, gassed, starved to death and died of disease.

Well no, that's not what they are saying.
Oh, and show me these records which demonstrate that these missing chaps were gassed and shot in systematic genocide.


Oh, and do you know who set up what are generally thought to be the first cocnentration camps, and the results of the actions?

Do you know what a red herring is, kid?

http://www1.us.nizkor.org/index.html

And, finally, there are the words of the Fuehrer himself. In Hitler's speech of January 30, 1939, he said:

Today I want to be a prophet once more: If international finance Jewry inside and outside of Europe should succeed once more in plunging nations into another world war, the consequence will not be the Bolshevization of the earth and thereby the victory of Jewry, but the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe.

n September, 1942, Hitler recalled:

In my Reichstag speech of September 1, 1939 [above, wrong date here], I have spoken of two things: first, that now that the war has been forced upon us, no array of weapons and no passage of time will bring us to defeat, and second, that if Jewry should plot another world war in order to exterminate the Aryan peoples in Europe, it would not be the Aryan peoples which would be exterminated but Jewry. . . .
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/american/skeptic-magazine/skeptic-10.html

Did you see my correction of MetaTron's errors about the distillation process? Or any of my many post in several threads about alcohol as fuel? I have also occasionally mentioned that I grew up in West Virginia's hills. With these clues, I will let you guess. :cool:

PS you are welcome to some, but be careful - it has not fully cooled so just sip for the first hour or so. Then even a fresh batch won't hurt. :D

Sorry work and !@#$%$#%^# called:

Sure could use one right now though; can I add a pinch of pepper?

Well no, that's not what they are saying.
Really? I note that you fail to link to a myriad ot in context statements.



Do you know what a red herring is, kid?


Kid? Why, thank you. I am young enough that my grandfather was on the beaches at D-day.

guthrie:

Really? I note that you fail to link to a myriad ot in context statements.

I note that you fail at life. Have a nice day.


Kid? Why, thank you.

'Thank you, SIR'. Address your betters as 'Sir', kid.


I am young enough that my grandfather was on the beaches at D-day.

And my grandfather was in a concentration camp during D-day. That's not really a good indication of age.

Which concentration camp? Did he tell you anything about conditions there?

Watch a movie called Escape from Sobibor. An old WW2 classic.

guthrie:

I note that you fail at life. Have a nice day.


'Thank you, SIR'. Address your betters as 'Sir', kid.


And my grandfather was in a concentration camp during D-day. That's not really a good indication of age.
Ahhh, it snice to see Mountainhares total lack of a point, evidence, or anything else pertaining to such things. You disgrace the real mountain hares, the ones I have seen on top of 3,000 foot hills.

Mountainhare (I assume I can count on your support.):

Yesterday, again I saw on TV the image of the pyramids the Jews claim they were forced to build in Egypt. You and I know they do not really exist. They are just small (less than 3 feet tall) models Sam Goldman (You knew he was a Jew, I assume - you can tell by his name. Sam is short for Samuel. - What more proof do you need?) made back in the 1920s for a desert movie.

In fact, the Jews were never even in Egypt!* and if they were, it was to steal from the Egyptians, certainly not as slaves; they are the masters at making slaves of us all! - They control all the world's press and broadcast stations, as you know, that is how they get all the holocaust nonsense before the public so often and into movies. (Sam G. started that.)

The moon landing has already been exposed as a fake. It is time we took on this Egyptian Pyramid nonsense too. I am sick and tired of the Jews trying to tell every one how they suffered!!!! I suffered yesterday because of them and their nonsense about oppression - building pyramids that do not even exist, gas chambers that never existed, etc. (That dam pyramid story came on TV just when Tom and Jerry was scheduled. - I never miss T&J. - It is a very important show and one of the few the Jews have not slanted to serve their lies.)

The man that took over MGM after Sam, I forget his name, is a Jew too. He is the one that staged all those photos of wax people with their ribs showing and piled them up on each other in ditches etc. (They do look real don't they! - perhaps the recently made ones are not even wax, but entirely digital bits in a computer - no end to the nonsense the Jews in Hollywood will go to - makes you sick!) It will be hard to prove this as they destroyed the disk, just like the set the wax people on fire after taking the photos.

Anyway, back to the point: Please make a sock puppet (perhaps call it "truth teller") to start a thread about the fact the pyramids do not really exist. As soon as it is up, you and I will post in it the fact that they are really only the 3 feet high models that Sam made in the 1920 to start another story about how the Jews suffered. If we work together, we can get the truth out about pyramids and the holocaust. THERE ARE NO PYRAMIDS and THERE WAS NO HOLOCAUST - only wax models, now destroyed, were made for the photos but I think the 3 foot high pyramids still exist on a back lot in Hollywood. Thus, if we can get a photo of someone standing next to them we can expose all these Jewish lies. Will you help?
----------------------------------
*except briefly in 1967.

(That dam pyramid story came on TV just when Tom and Jerry was scheduled. - I never miss T&J. - It is a very important show and one of the few the Jews have not slanted to serve their lies.)

BillyT, I can't believe even you've fallen for this! That show is not innocuous! :eek:

'Film Seminar on Iranian TV: Tom and Jerry - A Jewish Conspiracy to Improve the Image of Mice, because Jews Were Termed "Dirty Mice" in Europe'

link (http://memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=1049)

That entire World War was a Holocaust; so large, in fact, that there were even Holocausts within it (including, of course, the famous ones against the Jews). Everyone took a soak in that blood bath, though some more than others. Charming species, eh?

Hopefully the Earth will be obliterated to make way for an intergalactic freeway before we have another such war.

BillyT, I can't believe even you've fallen for this! That show is not innocuous! :eek:
'Film Seminar on Iranian TV: Tom and Jerry - A Jewish Conspiracy to Improve the Image of Mice, because Jews Were Termed "Dirty Mice" in Europe'
link (http://memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=1049)I guess all is lost. Only thing stopping me from blowing brains out (Perhaps I don't have any - I fell for T&J too)is US tied Italy - Even if we had to have one of the Italians kick the ball in our goal to do it. So sad, I thought I could trust T&J.

Billy:

Mountainhare (I assume I can count on your support.):

Wow, retards can make sub-par jokes in an attempt to denigrate someone whose intelligence is leaps and bounds beyond theirs!

Fancy that. I didn't even know that someone with a frontal lobotomy could even use a keyboard. You've impressed me, Billy.

mountainhare:

Clearly if all you can do is attack people personally on this issue, while failing to make a clear concise and believable argument just goes to show us what kind of person you are.

I've been to a concentration camp, Bergen Belson, if you've heard of the Diary of Anne Frank you might recognize it as the one she died in. There's a long walking track that goes through the heart of the camp, no buildings anymore, and as you walk along, you come across many "mounds of dirt". In front of these mounds of dirt are stone tablets. Printed very clearly and subtly on this Tablet is a race, and a number. Jews 1300, Gypsies 700, Polish 500, etc etc. Obviously these mounds have x amount of bodies of that race underneath them.

If the holocaust is some BS made up by the Jews, then why include races like Gypsies and another degenerates of society.

Your the type of person who would believe any conspiracy theory that is presented to you because you lack the ability to live in the real world. Better to live in a made up one in your head than actually be a normal contributor to society. Thankyou

To spacemansteve:

I of course agree with your comments, but hope you will consider editing your post to remove "another" in your third paragraph. I do not believe you intended the implications it makes against Gypsies, which like all groups have a spectrum of good and bad people in them.

BTW these "degenerates of society" were mainly people with physical disadvantages, possibly only a limp caused by one leg shorter than the other and homosexuals foolish enough to be "out of the closet"

I am not homosexual, more a “second class” member of the "dirty old man" group. (First class membership is restricted to men who take actions on their desires.) None the less, I do take a little pride in yesterday's "gay pride" parade thru the main streets of Sao Paulo, which were closed for the event - 2 million persons marched, many in costumes you can hardly believe, even while looking at them.

It was Sao Paulo's 10th such parade, each year bigger than the prior one, and the organizer were worried that this unbroken chain of expansion might be terminated by the fact that there was a world cup soccer game in progress at the time of the parade.

I support the freedom of choice, even if its denial does not affect me personally. I was very active in the US civil rights movement, held a "second level" leadership position in charge of transportation resources, etc. so next year I think I will march with the gays, but not in costume! I want the record of annual expansion to continue and think that will be hard to achieve as there are only about 18 million people in the Sao Paulo metropolitan area. The parade leaders made special appeals to all gays to turnout despite their love of soccer. I expect some gays will not turn out next year.

There is one thing above all others that I think of as moral degeneracy. It is the desire that one's neighbors have to be perfect in one's own eyes. It is this thing that makes people want to dictate to others the height of the grass on their lawns, whether they can keep a "junk" car in their backyard, what species and how many animals they can keep, even their hair length and choice of entertainment.

The number of excuses that people come up with for taking away people's family pets, for invading their lives searching for substances that some people don't approve of, for seeking out and destroying books and beliefs, those are really good indicators of moral degeneracy.

By the way: Gay must really be popular if it took men away from a soccer match in Sao Paolo. Wasn't that the setting of a science fiction short story in which 50,000 soldiers used the reflectorized backs of their programs to shine the light of the sun into the eyes of a referee? Wasn't anything left of the ref after that.

It is this thing that makes people want to dictate to others the height of the grass on their lawns, whether they can keep a "junk" car in their backyard,
i don't know about the rest of your post but these two things do have a legit reason. namely to keep rodents at bay.

And since people are so used to using this kind of excuse, they don't see that it is a lame excuse for invading another person's life and becoming increasingly controlling of that person's life. Instead, they manufacture more lame excuses for doing such things, things that by modern human rights concepts should only be done for clear and present danger. But it's clear and present danger when a few control freaks want it to be. So we're screwed and we have no rights. Rarely do our rights actually have any effect at all. Someone simply decides not to violate them on a given day.

And since people are so used to using this kind of excuse, they don't see that it is a lame excuse for invading another person's life and becoming increasingly controlling of that person's life.
will you also complain about keeping your dogs leashed and your in-ground swimming pool fenced in?

Yes, of course. Bitchy neighbors offend me. Bitchy neighbors who want to control my life offend me to the point where I quite rightly wish them to have no power over me. What I am bitching about is the intrusion upon my life, and they have gone to far to the point that they play games to try to get me in trouble and use the laws to harass me. It is also going to far to dictate what kind of dog I may have. Since I cannot trust them not to go to far with their restrictive laws, since they do go too far with their restrictive laws, they are offensive enough that their power over me must be ended. I have every right to bitch.

Yes, I've heard the arguments in a related thread.

e.g. how do you know they were gassed and did not die in the war?
and this guy did not even know how many Jews had been killed.

He refused to believe the photographic evidence and eyewitness accounts ( manufactured), wanted to see written documentation from Hitler or other proof that positively indicated a link between the gassed Jews and Hitler. When one poster suggested that the evidence may have been destroyed by the Germans he immeditely turned the whole thing into propaganda. We had to actually give up on him beacause he simply refused to see anything that subverted his premise.

:rolleyes:
Also, with all the unbroken consistant coverage of the Holocaust over the past 60 years, people forget this would cost the national debt of many a country to fabricate for such a long period...the deniers are very blind to this.

Billy T

please don't get me wrong, i meant no offence by what i said, apart from the bad spelling and grammar on my part lol, i should have placed degenerates of society in comma's. i.e "Degenerates of Society"

I was simply using an example of how the Nazi's treated "different people". Someone with a mental illness, a gypsy, an activist or simply somone who couldn't walk properly were all classed as "Degenerates" by the Nazi's. Not by me, i'm quite accepting of all people to certain degrees but those are my personal opinions. So apologies for any offence made

Billy T please don't get me wrong, i meant no offence by what i said,...I did not think you did, as I stated earlier, but rather than your post below, why not edit the original to reword making it clear that YOU do not consider gypsies to be "Degenerates of Society"?

Unfortunately many people do make this false generalization, mainly because they disapprove of their typical nomatic life style (which is also a stero-type as most gypies live at fixed locations now, not in a covered wagon passing by a farm and stealing a few chickens before they leave the area, etc.)

I am not a gypsie, but senstive to unjustified generalizations that put other groups at a disadvantage. - I am not a "bleading heart" liberal, only everyone benefits if all get equal oportuinity. - Some good brains are not developed if they happen to be in disavantaged bodies (usually bodies whose skin is not white).

I.e. I am really looking out for No. 1, me. Perhaps if all good brains are developed to their capacity, one of them may prolong my life with a new drug etc.

Billy T

like i said, i do not consider anyone to be a degenerate of society. People have the power to make choices for themselves and wear the consequences of those actions. If someone wants to live the life of a gypsy, whether it be a traditional one or a modern day one then thats their choice. Ultimately choice is the only free thing we have these days, but with every action there is a reaction.

I was just outlining the thoughts of the Nazi's and who they classed as a degenerate. I certainly don't agree with their view. If it caused offence to anyone then i apologise but its not what i think, just stating what was fact at that time in history

It seems to me that all that this has led to is every government justifying its fascist actions by saying "we didn't burn 6 million Jews." Maybe they insist on the 6 million number so they can look better if they only burn 4 million Jews. Maybe they insist on the poison showers so they can say, "Hey look! We didn't use poison showers." I think that enough went on to keep the major part of the stories honest.

Having worse examples of government behavior does not make bad behavior right. Way too much is allowed government in the way of police powers. The terrorism excuse isn't washing. There is barely enough of a trace of unapproved terrorist activity in the U.S. to even be able to find cases unless, like Alberto Gonzales, you happen to think that pornographers are terrorists. They of course think that their own shit doesn't stink and that it is just fine to terrorize citizens with the prospect of violent raids on their homes on loose suspicions.

Billy T... i do not consider anyone to be a degenerate of society. People have the power to make choices for themselves and wear the consequences of those actions. If someone wants to live the life of a gypsy, whether it be a traditional one or a modern day one then thats their choice....I have no objection to recognizing that society has "degenerates" not to do this would be irresponsible in some cases. I am just sensitive about statements that imply a whole group, like "gypsies" or "red headed people" are degenerates, especially when the characteristic, which places the individuals in the “degenerate group”, are things they had nothing to do with, like their genes or choice of parents etc.

You may be too young to even remember Barry Goldwater who ran for the US presidency a few years back. He was reasonable well off as his father (or grand father?) had built up a successful department store chain (or at least a very big store in AZ) Barry was right wing republican and thus spoke against the "welfare bums" quite a lot, who were not going to vote for him anyway so it was good politics for him. I forget which Democrat or journalist finally said:

"Yes, if those bums had any gumption, they would have inherited a department store."

Even though I was registered Republican at time, I thought that a fair comment. Many of the "degenerates" I see sleeping on the streets of Sao Paulo, just lack "gumption" :rolleyes: - fact that the public school system is a joke has nothing to do with it. (Every one of any means sends their kids to relative expensive private schools, so they do not want to pay higher taxes to get qualified teachers into the public schools etc.) The hired man, who took care of my cattle, could barely read, but he was as smart as any Ph.D. I have met. Brazil is losing many good brains - no wonder it is lagging behind in spite of fantastic natural resources.

I can't believe people deny the holocaust happened. My grandfather died in a concentration camp.

Billy T:

Hey i'm a red head :p and bloody proud of it too hehe, so yeah i understand that most of the time people don't have a choice. I mean if i could choose to be a tall dark haired attractive individual i probably would but at the end of the day i'm happy being a Medium height red head with a few freckles ;). However my girlfriend thinks that i'm cute hehe

Roman: Thats sad to hear... which camp did he die in? if you don't mind me asking... I went to Bergen Belson when i was younger and i can tell you, if i was old enough to understand the severity of what had happened (not that i didn't understand that it was horrible, however i was only 7yrs old), i probably would have shed a few teers.

He fell off a guard tower in Buchenwald.

However, the convergence of evidence already meets the historian's burden of proof. The historian never claimed that each individual piece of evidence independently proves the Holocaust. The evidence must be examined as a whole, and that is something the denier will never do, because it undermines his pre-formed conclusion that the Holocaust never happened.

I don't see why it is given historical importance -- it's as if propaganda (which emerged in 1946 but was mostly quiet until the 1960s) has been given more merit than a balanced historical view.

Now that the Israelis are busy genociding Arabs, look for this topic to become more popular.

I can't believe people deny the holocaust happened. My grandfather died in a concentration camp.

What if he was executed for being a criminal, not for his ethnicity?

Remember that the first executions in Germany were of perverts, child molestors and hereditary criminals and those with inherited mental or physical defects.

And 10,000 Jewish officers fought for Hitler.

Maybe there's more to the story than our biased perspective offers.

...Now that the Israelis are busy genociding Arabs, look for this topic to become more popular.You are correct. I recently noted that Israel's collective punishment (killing of innocents in Lebanon) ratio for each Israeli soldier killed, has exceeded that the Nazi forces used in occupied France during WWII when a German soldier was killed by that the population there, who were also actively resisting occupation.

It is true that the Nazi forces clearly intended to kill innocents and much less clear why Israel is doing so, but the grieving mothers on either side of the conflict do not care why their child is dead.

One thing that can be said for the Nazi, and not for Israel, is that the Nazis let the red cross deliver basic assistance, food packages, letters from home, etc. Israel should be ashamed to look worse in any regard than the terrible Nazi who intentionally were killing “non-Arians” and even "defective Arians." I.e. Israel should let the red cross, WFP, etc. thru to starving people.

I think that most of the "deniers" are actually "revisionists" who do not deny that it happened, but how much happened. I think that the various countries that outlaw their activities are protesting too much. Historical accuracy can reflect badly on people who we thought were the good guys.

I don't see anything wrong with holocaust truth-seekers. They really do have their own evidence.

It's wrong to call them deniers. They believe some events of the holocaust but they don't believe some other events of the holocaust. Because it wasn't a single event, calling them "holocaust deniers" is just way too narrow.

I won't comment on my belief on the holocaust. I'll just leave this one word and that word is "zionism". Research it.