This topic coming from a Canadian shouldn’t surprise anyone, aye.

The recent cancellation of the Hockey season has left me blue.
Those long Canadian winter nights have become more daunting and I have lost a source of amusement and a reason to razz my buddies.

The negotiation fiasco and the, not so intricate, subject matter might have some social ramifications and could be seen as a sign of deeper institutional ailments, not only within sports but in all areas.
But since this Forum has degraded into a teenage camp-out and its self-ascribed moniker of “intelligent community” only serves as an ironic reminder of what is really happening here, I will not even attempt to unravel such things here. :p
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The subject is limited to Hockey and Sports and because there is no sub-forum dedicated to such topics I post it here.

In my opinion the weight of responsibility for hockey’s woes rests squarely on the players shoulders.
I can find fault with the owners and recognize that their greed is equal to that of the players but they are businessmen. Businessmen that have risked their capital on a product and so deserve the bulk of the losses and the rewards.

To find teams is such obscene places like Tampa Bay or Phoenix losing money as a franchise while its players are making exuberant amounts, is not only unfair but ridiculous.
But 75% of the public sides with the owners in this dispute according to polls. The players, in their attempt to gain ground and to save face, have proposed salary cuts, which only postpone the problem and address none of the issues, and a salary cap of $49 million, a pathetic proposition when most teams are losing money with only a $42 million team.
It’s also ridiculous to find some players of questionable quality earning over $ 1 million a year when most of them shouldn’t even be getting $100 thousand.

The players like to say that they are the product and yet they refuse to accept linkage.
Linkage being the calculation of salary caps determined by the average league money intake. As I understand it.
If they are the product, which is disputable, then should they not also pay for their lack of commercial appeal in certain markets?
Sure it’s easy to make money in Canada or in the northern US states where hockey is a tradition but why should players be rewarded or not pay the consequences for not becoming commercially viable in areas like the southern US states and why should not a player bear some of the consequences of belonging to a team that loses on the ice or that loses in the box-office?

If the players want to make so much money for just skating around on the ice and playing a game then they can, at least, agree to incorporate blades and spikes in the game so that we can see some blood and guts. Then, I can say, that they’ve earned their pay.
Or maybe an exploding puck with a timer.

The risks here are great.
We have the spectre of baseball, where pennant races are decided with how much money each team can muster in a given year, making all secondary teams belonging to small markets a big joke.
Let’s forget about the steroids for now. Bulging muscles and shrinking testicles should also be accompanied by heavier bats and smaller baseballs, just o even things out.

We also have rising ticket prices, placing even regular season games beyond the average fans reach. Most seats today are filled by corporate sponsorships and rich dudes wanting to catch a game with their friends.
This limits the mass appeal of the sport.
But, more importantly, it prevents me from attending most games. How could I afford $100 ticket to watch a bunch of guys skating around chasing after a frozen disc?
Who invented such a sport anyways?

Do you side with the players or with the owners in this and why?

In the begining ice hockey was a sport that anyone that could skate could participate in. As the years went by the people saw that teams could be formed and allow the people a way to play against each others teams from different areas. Then the businessmen stepped in and wanted to make PROFITS. From that day till now prices have escalated ever upward for the fans, who just want to see their favorite team play to the players and those who support the whole shebang.


To lay blame on just one person or group would be rediculous for everyone wants moree and more....GREED! I don't care for ice hockey so I don't watch it. Those that do should be able to view it without paying such astronomical prices as you have stated BUT who will reduce their GREED? GREED is the driving force behind all of the runaway costs to anything including sports. To answer your question is to ask you one, who will reduce their earnings first?

What we are seeing is the unamericanization of hockey. One or two cancelled seasons will be a good thing. Only a significant reduction in the american market can bring back good ole Canadian hockey - low profits, low salary, high energy, high passion mom & pop hockey.

I'm Canadian, and while I miss hockey, its not making my nights any longer... In fact we've been playing a lot more hockey than usual.

Oh --- and I'm with the owners on this one.

I really really really miss hockey.....but the players should have just sucked it up and taken the salary cap. Everyone is so greedy these days. I'm with you, dsdsds, good ole Canadian hockey (even though I'm American)- low profits, low salary, high energy and passion, etc....

And, by the way, WANDERER, excellent post.....I couldn't have said it better myself about us true hockey fans not even having the cash flow to be able to even actually attend a game....

In a way, I'm on the player's side. The owners were the ones who started giving them more and more money. On the other hand, I'm on the owner's side. It is ridiculous that they have such high wages. So, in other words, I think they should all be paid at most some $100,000 per year- ALL of them. :bugeye:

Current players should be banned from NHL. Current owners should lose their franchises. I would even go as far as banning players and owners from professional hockey in North America!

I say the next hockey league should be owned and managed by the fans (or government? :eek: ). ... just kidding .. (or am I?)

Negotiation update.
I just heard that they are talking again.
Let’s hope next year can be salvaged.

If this doesn’t work I would say that the best thing that can happen is that they kick all the old, pampered ones out, and rebuild from scratch.
Most of the good ones are too old anyways.
That would mean restarting the draft and beginning next season with junior, inexperienced, lower calibre players, but in time the league will go back to normal and the salary cap will improve the game.

Look what happened to the NFL.
They had a dispute, years ago, I’m told and it was resolved by replacing the lot of them.
Now the NFL is the only professional sports league in North America with team parody and affordable ticket prices.

cosmictraveler
To lay blame on just one person or group would be rediculous for everyone wants moree and more....GREED! I don't care for ice hockey so I don't watch it. Those that do should be able to view it without paying such astronomical prices as you have stated BUT who will reduce their GREED? GREED is the driving force behind all of the runaway costs to anything including sports. To answer your question is to ask you one, who will reduce their earnings first?I’m not blaming one person.
True the prices might not go down but I doubt any owner will have the balls to raise them any time soon, if the cap is enforced.

dsdsds
What we are seeing is the unamericanization of hockey. One or two cancelled seasons will be a good thing. Only a significant reduction in the american market can bring back good ole Canadian hockey - low profits, low salary, high energy, high passion mom & pop hockey.Exactly.
What happened to the passion of Hockey and teams that became legendary?
Americanization strikes again.
Fuck them.
Most of them need red dots to follow the puck anyways.


TruthSeeker
Why am I not surprised?

Owners wanted to win games, get into the playoffs and fill their seats, so they tried to get the best product out there.
Just like what’s happening in baseball.

The salary cap will prevent owners from going overboard and it will limit large market teams from using their economic muscle.

The players took advantage of this and now that prices and costs have reached the absurd they refuse to do anything about it.

analbeads
And, by the way, WANDERER, excellent post.....I couldn't have said it better myself about us true hockey fans not even having the cash flow to be able to even actually attend a game....You either have to get a loan to see a game or you are forced to sit in the nose-bleed seats.
It’s better staying at home and seeing the game on T.V.

The purpose of going to the arena is to see the players get their faces smashed against the glass, hear the sounds, feel the energy.
Ticket prices have made Hockey like Basketball, a rich fans sport.

Oh well. I hope things get resolved so that I can start my Hockey Pool with the guys.

Well, part of the blame should also be laid on the NHL itself for it's own over-expansion. Too many teams, in too many American cities have spoiled the entire league and contributed to the downfall of this season as well.

Quick, name the team from Columbus and at least 4 of their players. How about Phoenix? And St. Louis? Only the hardcore hockey fans can do it, myself included. But Hockey isn't American Football, and it isn't roundball either and it's a far cry from baseball. Not for the actual sport of it, but the fan base and the ability for the teams to capture the interests of the general public.

Coming from Edmonton, who has one of the teams with the lowest salaries and lowest revenues you would think I would be complacent about the loss of our season. But I am not. I am sincerely disappointed, because despite the fact that in general the players are greedy jerks, the Oilers fill Rexall Place for every game. They play with spirit and a genuine love for the game. The Oilers have lost some good players to teams that could pay better, but is it really a loss? I don't think it is. Take Anson Carter for instance, who played happily for the Oilers then got traded to the Rangers when we couldn't afford his salary and everntually ended up in LA, and in every interview he mentions how it isn't the same as Edmonton. The teams aren't close, and the fan base is fickle. Edmonton fans love their Oilers, win or lose. The arena booms with the sounds of adoring fans night after night during home games. There is a difference between playing with heart, and playing for money. It is mostly the players fault that we don't have a season, but I am not sure it's reversible.

They don't make players like they used to. The players that were born on the ice in their local park, and blossomed into men who simply loved the sport. We will never have the players like Wayne Gretsky, Mario Lemieux, Gordie Howe, Bobby Orr, Ray Bourque, Denis Potvin, Bob Probert, Patrick Roy, Stan Mikita, Paul Coffey, and Jari Kurri. I could go on and on about the Greats, but hockey has changed. The game has gotten more competitive, faster, and the players are statistically better players on average. But the game itself has lost it's spirit because of over-exposure. Because of commercialization, and because of greed. It simply doesn't have the same heart and soul.

When was the last time you could follow the puck easily around the ice on a TV broadcast? I know I have trouble in certain arena's because of advertising under the ice. As if having ads plastered all over the boards isn't bad enough, the teams are forced to sell ice space. And yet, in all American cities, the price of a hockey ticket far exceeds the middle-class affordable entertainment bracket. Canada loves it's hockey, but America is not the same way. And therein lies the problem. The majority of the teams that expanded are in cities where there are very few hockey rinks for children. Where the visions of kids waking up early on a saturday morning and hitting the lake out back isn't ever seen. Most Americans don't care that the season is over. And I don't blame them for that, they simply don't understand the history and the heart of hockey itself.

Cut the league by six or so teams. Stop signing so many European players, and issue a salary cap. Balance it all out, and the league would be fine. Is the damage already done? Maybe so. I think you'll see less turnout in American small market teams, and they will continue to lose money unless something changes drastically. If you want my true opinion, the American sports arena has ruined hockey and spoiled it's heart and soul. Which is a tragedy for kids, because hockey is a great game.

**By the way, underground hockey talks are going on right now in New York. According to very reliable sources, the players themselves have been talking to their teams and to their agents and have said that they are extremely disappointed in Goodenow and the job he has done during this time. Wayne Gretsky, Shane Doan and Mario Lemieux have negotiated a meeting for today between the Union and the NHL. They have pushed the two sides back together and said, "You can't do this to our fans, or to hockey itself." Both Bettman and Goodenow will be at the meeting, and current NHL players who have been playing in Europe have been reportedly told that they should prepare for starting play in the middle of March. Up until now, there has been no hope really. But because both Gretsky and Lemieux are owners who are also very respected players worldwide, and own small market teams... things might just be set right. We should know something by Monday.

Do not lose hope, Wanderer.

Forgot to link the stories ;)

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=sportsNews&storyID=7679152
http://msn.foxsports.com/nhl/story/3405818
http://www.thehockeynews.com/en/headlines/detail.asp?id=27365&cat=954945254360

It ain't over yet.

Wanderer,

Nice thread.
Anyways, despite being located in Maple Leaf land (and having to deal with their mentally challenged fanbase) I've been a Calgary fan for going on 20 years. Suffice to say, I'm a huge hockey fan. Note the choice of words here: a hockey fan. That being the case, I'm sick to death of hearing about this garbage. How anyone who calls themself a hockey fan could possibly back the Players is beyond me. Let's be realistic, this game is a business. For the game to thrive, it needs to be financially stable and for some reason the players think that this should be second. Ergo, the situation they find themselves in. I for one, would be quite happy to see the NHL dissolve, and have a new league start up. Say, 12, maybe 14 teams. Ah well.. maybe in 2 years or so.

Sadnest. Ultimate sadness.

They had good talks, but made no progress.

I was sure that Gretzsky would work miracles... he always has.

Interesting that Goodenow was missing from the talks. I think everyone agrees he's more of the problem.

Goodenow is not there?!
I wonder why.

Because the players feel he has done a poor job.

I tend to agree with them.

Gretzsky was never given a chance to work a miracle. All the players did was talk about arbitration. Negotiations to save the season were never mentioned. Apparently Gretzsky and Lemieux were furious.

Looks like there will be a black ring around the Stanley Cup.

Huh. I had absolutely no idea this was going on.


...um, safe to say I'm American ;)

:( :( :(

That very statement is absolutely heart wrenching to a Canadian hockey fan. Most of our teams are in the US. This further validates Arditezza's earlier post that the league has over-expanded.

I think that the small Southern American teams that are in areas where no one gives a shit about hockey should be abolished. They're the ones that are bitching about the financial difficulties. Yes, the American businessmen are so smart - "Let's make an NHL expansion team in an area that doesn't even get SNOW". Christ, you are a fucking genius! Let's make a team in a shithole American city where only 1% of the population has ever played hockey! We can try to pull five hundred pound males out of the couch they managed to steal out of a garbage dump and drag into their trailer just so he has a comfortable place to fuck his retarded girlfriend and make him turn the channel on the T.V. away from American Gladiators to NHL hockey because he traded in his T.V. switch for a quarter-dime of a mix of cheap cocaine/oxy mix to give to his girlfriend so she would fuck him. You're a fucking genius!
When that business plan failed, those owners now want salary caps because they can't afford to keep their struggling, lifeless teams that attract less than half-capacity. This is a business. Everything is turned into a buisness whether you like it or not. Every sport is a buisness. Philosophy, art, games, science, government, entertainment, sex, life and pretty much everything else is a business or has been altered in some way to be a business. If you can't afford to keep it, then you lose it. It's life, deal with it. Yes, there is spirit and emotion and tradition put into hockey. I've watched every Stanley Cup final since I can remember. I've played hockey for many years. I played on the gold medal provincial team a couple of years ago. Since my knee surgery, I haven't been able to play. I feel like there is something missing. I know what hockey is all about. I also know how the world works. A salary cap would be halting the league's chance at becoming big. I would rather see twelve exciting teams that sell out every night with devoted fans who have a passion for the game gawk at the player's talents who are being awarded with a decent salary. People bitch about their salaries being too high. Has anyone seen the MLB salaries lately? Steroid-filled players are being paid hundreds of millions of dollars to stick a needle in their butt and see how good the scientists that should be trying to research the earth and cure diseases really are. Perhaps the definition of Athletics should be changed.

Excuse the tone. I can assure all of you that I am in a good mood, just in a strange mood... it's only the beginning of Saturday night ;)

A salary cap would be halting the league's chance at becoming big.

Isn't it funny how the most devoted fans live in cities where your business model would fail? Sorry, but the economics would cause the league to destroy itself. I'm not willing to pay $100 for 3 hours of hockey...unless of course its the stanley cup finals...

But I agree about the southern american thing..Why the hell does miami have a team and not winnipeg or halifax?

I fit in the rare "I'm a canadian that doesn't give a shit about hockey" category but it's hard not to have some view on this issue if you live here. I swear, if we got hit by a 9/11 type attack tomorrow the front page would ask how it might affect hockey.

Anyway, I'm with the owners on this issue (to my surprise). As I said I'm not a fan of the sport but I recognize how important it is to my fellow canadians and there is no question that we will lose all of our franchises eventually if the players wages continue to rise like this. What fun is a game where all the best teams are only the best because they have unlimited cash to spend? You might as well just watch "pro" wrestling.

EDIT: are any mods reading this? I'm all for physics but the above post is not only in the wrong area but such an obscene example of spam it should be deleted with extreme prejudice. Physics spam... I never thought I'd see that. I have seen low points online but for some reason I find that more disturbing than usual.

I'm not willing to pay $100 for 3 hours of hockey...unless of course its the stanley cup finals...

Heh, that's cheap. I payed $250 (haggling down the proce in half along with another guy) for a ticket to see the Maple Leafs play in the 4th game of the Philly series last year in Toronto. We here talking to the people in our section and we had gotten the best ticket price. Canadians are willing to pay $500 for a ticket in the red section. It was worth every penny.

I do live in an area that couldn't support an NHL team because of the population but I also practically live n the cities. I believe in free enterprise. If you can't support your business, then you lose.

If you regard hockey as a business, then sure.

But the question you should be asking is- can business support hockey? Last I heard a major American TV network is threatening to permanently stop broadcasting NHL games because the shitty replacement slots are getting higher ratings.

The stanley cup final between tampa and calgary last spring was among the most emotional I ever saw, but despite that and high ticket prices, ratings were crap.

So, go ahead. Turn the sport into another grab for the almighty dollar. But don't be surprised when it dies face down in the gutter. If the worthlessness of trading cards is any indication then its been dead for years.