Most if not all theists belief God always was.
If that were true what did he do for kicks the eternity before he created the heavens and earth and all that ?? :confused:

Not trying to bash religion here, im just curious as to what believers make of this.

Most if not all theists belief God always was.
If that were true what did he do for kicks the eternity before he created the heavens and earth and all that ?? :confused:

Not trying to bash religion here, im just curious as to what believers make of this.

worked on his abs.

Most if not all theists belief God always was.
If that were true what did he do for kicks the eternity before he created the heavens and earth and all that ?? :confused:

Not trying to bash religion here, im just curious as to what believers make of this.

Why should he be doing something?

Why should he be doing something?

Well.. it does seem kinda pointless to sit around doing utterly nothing for eternity. Maybe God is lazy... :D

Well.. it does seem kinda pointless to sit around doing utterly nothing for eternity. Maybe God is lazy... :D

What would you consider a point?Of your existence for example?

Well.. it does seem kinda pointless to sit around doing utterly nothing for eternity. .

what's heaven gonna be like then? An eternity of doing the same thing over and over and over?

What would you consider a point?Of your existence for example?

My existence is pointless. :shrug:
But do you really belief God always was and did nothing, for an infinite amount of time ?? That strikes me as extremely odd.

what's heaven gonna be like then? An eternity of doing the same thing over and over and over?

Most probably, yes :p

My existence is pointless. :shrug:
But do you really belief God always was and did nothing, for an infinite amount of time ?? That strikes me as extremely odd.

So God should be an industrious fellow turning out worlds by the dozen? Does it disappoint you that he didn't?:)

Makes you wonder if he created just to have something to do :p

So God should be an industrious fellow turning out worlds by the dozen? Does it disappoint you that he didn't?:)

It just doesnt make any sense to me that he did nothing for an infinite amount of time and then one day came up with creation.

So God should be an industrious fellow turning out worlds by the dozen? Does it disappoint you that he didn't?:)

How do you know that he didn't?

It just doesnt make any sense to me that he did nothing for an infinite amount of time and then one day came up with creation.

Why?

Why?

Why ?? Because its pointless.. it doesnt seem godly to be pointless..

Why ?? Because its pointless.. it doesnt seem godly to be pointless..

As compared to?:confused:

As compared to?:confused:

This was supposed to be a friendly thread:

Not trying to bash religion here, im just curious as to what believers make of this.


I guess youre sticking with your belief that he didnt do anything for eternity and are perfectly happy with it ?

This was supposed to be a friendly thread:


I guess youre sticking with your belief that he didnt do anything for eternity and are perfectly happy with it ?

No, I'm just wondering when the universe became purposeful.:confused:

what if he creates it, destroys it and creates it all over again? Over and over. He could be creating another dimension right now.

No, I'm just wondering when the universe became purposeful.:confused:

Uhm.. we're looking from Gods perspective he was only purposeful from the moment he created.

what if he creates it, destroys it and creates it all over again? Over and over. He could be creating another dimension right now.

So you mean he created this universe over and over again ? Or do you mean that he keeps adding dimensions ?

Uhm.. we're looking from Gods perspective he was only purposeful from the moment he created.

How do you know God's perspective?

So you mean he created this universe over and over again ? Or do you mean that he keeps adding dimensions ?

He made this one, moved on to another dimension, came back and saw that this one sucked, exploded the sun, started over, etc

He made this one, moved on to another dimension, came back and saw that this one sucked, exploded the sun, started over, etc

:eek: LOL

How do you know God's perspective?

Its all hypothetical S.A.M.
What purpose you think would God have had before he created ??

Its all hypothetical S.A.M.
What purpose you think would God have had before he created ??

Well, its your hypothesis. why don't you tell me?:shrug:

Well, its your hypothesis. why don't you tell me?:shrug:

Hmm i already did, he had no purpose.
Anyways, i dont even belief in God. Im just curious as to what theists make of it (see OP).

Oh, my Mom said he was always creating. His days are much much longer than ours. He is still creating, but since his days are so long, we don't see it. We call it evolution.

Oh, my Mom said he was always creating. His days are much much longer than ours. He is still creating, but since his days are so long, we don't see it. We call it evolution.

Well MUCH longer then, infinitely longer ;)
So you do belief in God and evolution ?

Why should he be doing something?

He did something, he made a universe. No one knows why he did it, but he just did it. So, it begs the question of what he did before he made the universe? And how long was it he did whatever it was he was doing before he made it, that is, if he was doing anything at all?

Seems simple enough a question to understand.

He did something, he made a universe. No one knows why he did it, but he just did it. So, it begs the question of what he did before he made the universe? And how long was it he did whatever it was he was doing before he made it, that is, if he was doing anything at all?



Why?

So you mean he created this universe over and over again ? Or do you mean that he keeps adding dimensions?

No, maybe it's like a pinball game to him ...he just enjoys game after game after game ...while drinking mint juleps and smoking cigars.

Why did you even mention "dimensions"? Just curious.

Baron Max

If you can't answer the question, then let someone else. Don't be coy.

If you can't answer the question, then let someone else. Don't be coy.

Why do you consider that any more "coy" than any of the other "answers" in this tread?

Baron Max

Why do you consider that any more "coy" than any of the other "answers" in this tread?

Sorry BM, that was for SAM.

Most if not all theists belief God always was.
If that were true what did he do for kicks the eternity before he created the heavens and earth and all that ?? :confused:

Not trying to bash religion here, im just curious as to what believers make of this.

That "eternity" was spent mucking about with "Universe Mk I" and "Universe Mk II"...

U-I:
God creates "superhuman" beings (ie seraphim and cherubim, that sort of thing) sans Free Will.
Boring results... lots of harp-twanging and choirs of angels braying on about "God is Good" and all that rot.
All elements considered of no value. Abandoned in place or obliterated.

U-II:
God creates "superhuman" beings (see above) capable of Free Will.
Mixed results... Lucifer's rebellion.... War of the Angels... all that rot.
Some elements sufficiently interesting to be preserved - a "bright idea" ensues...

Namely - "Universe Mk III"...
God creates human beings bereft of the supernatural capabilities of those in U-I and U-II, but capable of Free Will.
Results as yet unknown. Experiment in progress.

LoL

No, maybe it's like a pinball game to him ...he just enjoys game after game after game ...while drinking mint juleps and smoking cigars.

Why did you even mention "dimensions"? Just curious.

Baron Max

I didnt mention dimensions... Orleander did.
You see, i dont belief in any God, im just wondering what theist make of the question in the OP.
To not get into any fights about the existance of God im for arguments sake temporarily accepting God exists.

Well.. it does seem kinda pointless to sit around doing utterly nothing for eternity. Maybe God is lazy... :DGod could NOT have been sitting around for eternity - for an infinite length of time - and then created the Universe etc.

Why not?
If God exists at point in time X, created the Universe at point in time Y, and there is an infinite amount of time between X and Y - then it is impossible for Y to ever be reached from X.

This suggests three things:
1. Time (as we understand it) is not a valid concept prior to the creation of the Universe; or
2. God only existed for a finite time prior to his creation; or
3. Who cares? We're here and can't prove diddly about what happened before.

Your pick. :)

God could NOT have been sitting around for eternity - for an infinite length of time - and then created the Universe etc.

Why not?
If God exists at point in time X, created the Universe at point in time Y, and there is an infinite amount of time between X and Y - then it is impossible for Y to ever be reached from X.

This suggests three things:
1. Time (as we understand it) is not a valid concept prior to the creation of the Universe; or
2. God only existed for a finite time prior to his creation; or
3. Who cares? We're here and can't prove diddly about what happened before.

Your pick. :)

You can leave out point X because theists belief god ALWAYS was. So i he ALWAYS was he sat around for an infinite amount of time before creating.

1. Then, God mustve been created alongside the universe or after.
2. If God exists this must be true. In my view its impossible for a sentient being to have always been.
3. Well.. yeah i can live with that actually lol

I dont know if the bible actually states God has always been but think of this:

The bible isnt exactly big on time, f.i. a bible-year seems to be quite longer than an earth-year.
So might 'God has always been' just have been an exaggeration to point out God has been for a VERY long time ?

Hey, being all powerful and all, maybe God chose never to have existed... :p

Most if not all theists belief God always was.
If that were true what did he do for kicks the eternity before he created the heavens and earth and all that ?? :confused:

Not trying to bash religion here, im just curious as to what believers make of this.
he has an eternal abode

BG 4.9: One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna.

with eternal associates

CC Madhya 21.48: "Innumerable Vaikuṇṭha planets, which are just like different rooms of a treasure-house, are all there, filled with all opulences. Those unlimited planets house the Lord's eternal associates, who are also enriched with the six opulences.

and eternal pastimes

CC Madhya 11.135-136: Advaita Ācārya Prabhu replied, "This is a natural characteristic of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Although He is personally complete and full in all opulences, He takes transcendental pleasure in the association of His devotees, with whom He has a variety of eternal pastimes."

Most if not all theists belief God always was.
If that were true what did he do for kicks the eternity before he created the heavens and earth and all that ?? :confused:

Not trying to bash religion here, im just curious as to what believers make of this.

Not only do we believe He has always existed we believe that He will always exist. We also believe that we will always exist. So why don't you ask the question what will God be doing into the Eternal future for kicks??

But your question comes from thinking that God is like you. Needing kicks..

But God is God so what could possibly cause Him excitement any way?

Your question is just flawed from the very start.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

...But your question comes from thinking that God is like you. Needing kicks....

God created man to glorify himself. Is that not vanity, a human condition? He created man in his own image, again vanity. He has shown himself to be an angry and jealous god.

Yeah...he's JUST like us. I think he got bored so he created. He got lonely, he created. He got drunk, and he created the platypus.

Not only do we believe He has always existed we believe that He will always exist. We also believe that we will always exist. So why don't you ask the question what will God be doing into the Eternal future for kicks??

But your question comes from thinking that God is like you. Needing kicks..

But God is God so what could possibly cause Him excitement any way?

Your question is just flawed from the very start.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

I also think my question is flawed from the very start, but lets not go into that.
How do YOU know that God isnt like us ??
The way you and other theists are explaining God he sounds less and less like a being and more like a universal force.


God created man to glorify himself. Is that not vanity, a human condition? He created man in his own image, again vanity. He has shown himself to be an angry and jealous god.

Yeah...he's JUST like us. I think he got bored so he created. He got lonely, he created. He got drunk, and he created the platypus.


Seems about right to me, especially that last bit :D

Forces do not reason with human beings. Forces are simply the effects created by the universe. God however is an Intelligence a personality a being. Seeing God as a force is a “new age” delusion

But to try to figure him out by tagging human emotions and desires upon him is a waste of time.

Also trying to understand eternity is beyond human capacity. Who knows eternity might be an eternal present.

All Praise The Ancient OF Days

But to try to figure him out by tagging human emotions and desires upon him is a waste of time.
Isn't that religion in a nutshell ?

God created man to glorify himself. Is that not vanity, a human condition?
no, its our constitutional position
if we don't glorify god, we glorify ourselves (and moan and groan eternally because no one wants to participate in our plans on how to run the universe)

He created man in his own image, again vanity.
he created the human form of life in his image - the reason is that the human form of life awards the possibility of understanding god, and attaining the state of liberation from the material clutches - still, if alternatives are what you are after there are another 8 000 000 species of life

He has shown himself to be an angry and jealous god.
regarding the angry - is it possible for anyone to wield any form of power or authority and not have recourse to anger (wouldn't being a walking punching bag make the task of installing order impossible?)

regarding the jealousy - if god is truly the unique cause of all causes, omnimax etc, and, in our infinite wisdom, we disagree, he doesn't have the right to say "Thou shalt have no other God before Me"

Yeah...he's JUST like us.
except in the sense that he is the lord of everything as opposed to being conditioned by everything

I think he got bored so he created.
why?
you think he is conditioned like you?

He got lonely, he created. He got drunk, and he created the platypus.
why?
just because you may get drunk when you feel lonely doesn't mean god gets lonely, what to speak of getting drunk.

if its not possible to draw up precise descriptions of the activities of other mortals by scraping the limits of your introspection, why do you try and bridge such a distance to god's activities by the same means?

Forces do not reason with human beings. Forces are simply the effects created by the universe. God however is an Intelligence a personality a being. Seeing God as a force is a “new age” delusion

But to try to figure him out by tagging human emotions and desires upon him is a waste of time.

Also trying to understand eternity is beyond human capacity. Who knows eternity might be an eternal present.

All Praise The Ancient OF Days

And reasoning with God isnt a delusion ?

no, its our constitutional position
if we don't glorify god, we glorify ourselves (and moan and groan eternally because no one wants to participate in our plans on how to run the universe)


he created the human form of life in his image - the reason is that the human form of life awards the possibility of understanding god, and attaining the state of liberation from the material clutches - still, if alternatives are what you are after there are another 8 000 000 species of life


regarding the angry - is it possible for anyone to wield any form of power or authority and not have recourse to anger (wouldn't being a walking punching bag make the task of installing order impossible?)

regarding the jealousy - if god is truly the unique cause of all causes, omnimax etc, and, in our infinite wisdom, we disagree, he doesn't have the right to say "Thou shalt have no other God before Me"


except in the sense that he is the lord of everything as opposed to being conditioned by everything


why?
you think he is conditioned like you?


why?
just because you may get drunk when you feel lonely doesn't mean god gets lonely, what to speak of getting drunk.

if its not possible to draw up precise descriptions of the activities of other mortals by scraping the limits of your introspection, why do you try and bridge such a distance to god's activities by the same means?

If God does exist isnt he indeed a walking punchbag right now... ?

If God does exist isnt he indeed a walking punchbag right now... ?
not in the slightest - what makes you think otherwise?

what if god is insane?

what if god is insane?

Doesn't really matter; you'd still be you.

not in the slightest - what makes you think otherwise?

Because atheists are taking swings at him, well rather at the concept of him. And God doesnt exactly do anything about it...

Because atheists are taking swings at him, well rather at the concept of him. And God doesnt exactly do anything about it...

A cat may look at a king.:p

Because atheists are taking swings at him, well rather at the concept of him. And God doesnt exactly do anything about it...

More like, his god is being thrashed into oblivion, shelved along with the other pixies and fairies as make-believe, crushed under the heels of reason and rationale and slam-dunked into the historic dustbin of myth and superstition.

:D

More like, his god is being thrashed into oblivion, shelved along with the other pixies and fairies as make-believe, crushed under the heels of reason and rationale and slam-dunked into the historic dustbin of myth and superstition.

:D

He is? Where?:confused:

He is? Where?:confused:

Right in front of your very eyes, can't you see?:rolleyes:

regarding the angry - is it possible for anyone to wield any form of power or authority and not have recourse to anger (wouldn't being a walking punching bag make the task of installing order impossible?)


I was responding to quote above..
He is a punchbag because i can call him anything i want and there wouldnt be any punishment. So therefore, according to you, God is inadequate at his job?

Right in front of your very eyes, can't you see?

All I see is this:

http://www.dkamagazine.com/Forum/images/smiles/p_horseplay.gif

and this:

http://forum.digital-digest.com/images/smilies/1/deadhorse.gif

:shrug:

All I see is this:

and this:

:shrug:

I know, o' blinded one, the question was rhetorical. :p

Yeah I figured that; after all even you post in the religion forum more than the science forums

http://forum.digital-digest.com/images/smilies/1/iwin.gif

Yeah I figured that; after all even you post in the religion forum more than the science forums

http://forum.digital-digest.com/images/smilies/1/iwin.gif

At least I'm quite able to post in both, what's your excuse?

As an aside, many of the kooks and nutters who flock to sciforums are also under the impression that getting the last word is equivalent to winning.

;)

At least I'm quite able to post in both, what's your excuse?

As an aside, many of the kooks and nutters who flock to sciforums are also under the impression that getting the last word is equivalent to winning.

;)

Dahling, no one can accuse me of being partial to any one forum. ;)

Or impartial.

Or impartial.

:shrug:

I was responding to quote above..
He is a punchbag because i can call him anything i want and there wouldnt be any punishment. So therefore, according to you, God is inadequate at his job?

you're in a medium where you are forced to get sick, old and die, where any moment you can get assailed by sufferings caused by natural phenomena, other living entities (mothers, ants, sting rays and elephants included) and one's own mind and body, yet you are not being punished/controlled/limited in any way?

Sure you can call him whatever you want, just like a person in jail can call the law whatever they want - such a freedom of choice however doesn't indicate freedom from punishment

you're in a medium where you are forced to get sick, old and die, where any moment you can get assailed by sufferings caused by natural phenomena, other living entities (mothers, ants, sting rays and elephants included) and one's own mind and body, yet you are not being punished/controlled/limited in any way?

Sure you can call him whatever you want, just like a person in jail can call the law whatever they want - such a freedom of choice however doesn't indicate freedom from punishment

Are you serious ?
I dont consider "get sick, old and die, where any moment you can get assailed by sufferings caused by natural phenomena, other living entities (mothers, ants, sting rays and elephants included) and one's own mind and body" any punishment by God, those are natural phenomena.
..mothers ? LOL
If this were true all theists are being punished as well, they all get sick, old and die too. Further more, this would not be a God i would love.. it sounds more like Satan to me.

You arent seriously comparing our lives here on earth to being in prison, are you ? If so, then God would be the warden ?
If this is your faith i pity you.

Are you serious ?
I dont consider "get sick, old and die, where any moment you can get assailed by sufferings caused by natural phenomena, other living entities (mothers, ants, sting rays and elephants included) and one's own mind and body" any punishment by God, those are natural phenomena.
as an atheist, its understandable - my point is that as long as you remain adverse to god, you are subject to a continuation of such "natural" phenomena


..mothers ? LOL
I thought i would throw that one in because you sound like a teenager

If this were true all theists are being punished as well,
the difference is that theists are addressing the nature of their adversity to god, whereas atheists are cultivating it

they all get sick, old and die too. Further more, this would not be a God i would love.. it sounds more like Satan to me.
not even mundane law operates out of the principle of not upsetting your personal likes and dislikes, so its not clear why god is duty bound to construct the universe to operate on this principle

You arent seriously comparing our lives here on earth to being in prison, are you ?
you aren't seriously suggesting that our life here on earth is the medium of the unhindered expression of our desires are you?

If so, then God would be the warden ?
no - he has a deputed agency that looks after the material world - just like a king has a deputed agency to look after the prison
If this is your faith i pity you.
if you have faith that material life is the medium of freedom of expression it is you who is a subject of pity ....

as an atheist, its understandable - my point is that as long as you remain adverse to god, you are subject to a continuation of such "natural" phenomena

right, as an theist you get to adress it to God, big difference.


I thought i would throw that one in because you sound like a teenager

Believe me i could say they same about you. I am only sure you are wrong.


the difference is that theists are addressing the nature of their adversity to god, whereas atheists are cultivating it

So whats the actual difference ?


not even mundane law operates out of the principle of not upsetting your personal likes and dislikes, so its not clear why god is duty bound to construct the universe to operate on this principle

Ok, so why im i being punished again ?


you aren't seriously suggesting that our life here on earth is the medium of the unhindered expression of our desires are you?

I am, but morals keep me from doing the immoral.. not God.


no - he has a deputed agency that looks after the material world - just like a king has a deputed agency to look after the prison

ok...


if you have faith that material life is the medium of freedom of expression it is you who is a subject of pity ....

You are free to think that.

Emnos
“
Originally Posted by lightgigantic
as an atheist, its understandable - my point is that as long as you remain adverse to god, you are subject to a continuation of such "natural" phenomena
”
right, as an theist you get to adress it to God, big difference.
yes certainly

“
Originally Posted by lightgigantic
the difference is that theists are addressing the nature of their adversity to god, whereas atheists are cultivating it
”
So whats the actual difference ?
like the difference between overcoming a sickness and getting more sick

“
Originally Posted by lightgigantic
not even mundane law operates out of the principle of not upsetting your personal likes and dislikes, so its not clear why god is duty bound to construct the universe to operate on this principle
”
Ok, so why im i being punished again ?
the same principle as mundane law - if you can't operate out of one set of rules (society at large or god's domain) you are forced to operate out of another (jail or the material world)

“
Originally Posted by lightgigantic
you aren't seriously suggesting that our life here on earth is the medium of the unhindered expression of our desires are you?
”
I am, but morals keep me from doing the immoral.. not God.
morals don't hinder your desires?


“
Originally Posted by lightgigantic
if you have faith that material life is the medium of freedom of expression it is you who is a subject of pity ....
”
You are free to think that.
the heroin addict is also free to pity non addicts too
:D

the same principle as mundane law - if you can't operate out of one set of rules (society at large or god's domain) you are forced to operate out of another (jail or the material world)

According to you im being punished right now because in dont belief in God.
:shrug:


morals don't hinder your desires?

Ofcourse they do, dont yours ?


the heroin addict is also free to pity non addicts too
:D

Seek help, heroine is bad for you.

Emnos

Originally Posted by lightgigantic
the same principle as mundane law - if you can't operate out of one set of rules (society at large or god's domain) you are forced to operate out of another (jail or the material world)
”
According to you im being punished right now because in dont belief in God.
no

you are being punished just like a prisoner is being punished (ie accepting the norms of prison life) because they can not operate out of the greater societal norms


“
Originally Posted by lightgigantic
morals don't hinder your desires?
”
Ofcourse they do, dont yours ?
so its not clear why you assert that the material world is the medium of fulfilling one's desires unhindered

(on a side point theism aims at coming to the point of loving god, hence obedience to the strictures of morals are superseded)

“
Originally Posted by lightgigantic
the heroin addict is also free to pity non addicts too

”
Seek help, heroine is bad for you.
life in the material world with the prospect of more to come also warrants a health hazard warning

Isn't that religion in a nutshell ?

Well a lot of religions try their best to make God more understandable to people by pasting human emotions and concepts on Him. But i think they do it as a way of trying to make it easier for people to relate to God and a human rather than God as God.

It’s like the interpretations of the trinity you will read. They are not an accurate description of the nature of the relationship between God Jesus and The Holy Spirit, but they satisfy a lot of people who need some kind of explanation that they can handle.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

And reasoning with God isnt a delusion ?


No it's isn't a delusion. God does interact with His creation.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Because atheists are taking swings at him, well rather at the concept of him. And God doesnt exactly do anything about it...

LOL

God is allowing atheists to remove people from belief in God. People who while believing in God do not have a love for His truth.

Let me put it in another way.

God is using atheists as a purging agent to purify the Body of Believers. So your only drawing out those whom God allows you to draw. Those who want out anyway and are looking for some kind of justification or logic to walk away. Atheists can never remove one from the faith who believes Jesus and loves the truth of God.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

LOL

God is allowing atheists to remove people from belief in God. People who while believing in God do not have a love for His truth.

Let me put it in another way.

God is using atheists as a purging agent to purify the Body of Believers. So your only drawing out those whom God allows you to draw. Those who want out anyway and are looking for some kind of justification or logic to walk away. Atheists can never remove one from the faith who believes Jesus and loves the truth of God.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

So youre saying God wants me to be an atheist so i can be used as "a purging agent to purify the Body of Believers" ? So if its not my fault, then why do i still have to go to hell ?

So youre saying God wants me to be an atheist so i can be used as "a purging agent to purify the Body of Believers" ? So if its not my fault, then why do i still have to go to hell ?

No i did not say that.

God does not plan someone to spend eternity in the lake of fire. But God can and does use the intent and deeds of those who reject Him to work to his purpose.

He used the Jews intent to kill Jesus to His purpose of achieving the atoning sacrifice of Jesus. He did not do it by forcing them but by taking advantage of their evil intent. Their intent to silence and destroy the Word OF God turned out only to achieve the goal of the one they wanted to silence and destroy.

So likewise the hard working athiest who is intent on deconverting followers of Jesus are only cleaning the body of Christ like those fish that clean whales when they visit coral reefs.

As for your personal future. I do not know if you will persist in your current beliefs or if one day you will come to believe Jesus. So i do not know where you will spend eternity. God knows of course. But not me.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

:confused: No i did not say that.

God does not plan someone to spend eternity in the lake of fire. But God can and does use the intent and deeds of those who reject Him to work to his purpose.

So atheists help God do his job ??


He used the Jews intent to kill Jesus to His purpose of achieving the atoning sacrifice of Jesus. He did not do it by forcing them but by taking advantage of their evil intent. Their intent to silence and destroy the Word OF God turned out only to achieve the goal of the one they wanted to silence and destroy.

I thought the romans killed Jesus.. :confused:


So likewise the hard working athiest who is intent on deconverting followers of Jesus are only cleaning the body of Christ like those fish that clean whales when they visit coral reefs.

I am not intent on converting theists. I think everybody has the right to belief what he or she wants.


As for your personal future. I do not know if you will persist in your current beliefs or if one day you will come to believe Jesus. So i do not know where you will spend eternity. God knows of course. But not me.

Atheism is not a belief.

LOL

God is allowing atheists to remove people from belief in God. People who while believing in God do not have a love for His truth.

Let me put it in another way.

God is using atheists as a purging agent to purify the Body of Believers. So your only drawing out those whom God allows you to draw. Those who want out anyway and are looking for some kind of justification or logic to walk away. Atheists can never remove one from the faith who believes Jesus and loves the truth of God.
*************
M*W: Technically, you are correct. Atheists don't have the power to "remove" a christian from their heartfelt belief in god. It's other christians who are to blame.

:confused:
So atheists help God do his job ??

In some cases yeah.


I thought the romans killed Jesus.. :confused:

The movement to kill Jesus came from the Jewish religious authorities who manoeuvred the local roman authorities into a position where they where damned if they killed Jesus and they where Damned if they did not. But right near the end of the crisis the Jews took back the responsibility when they shouted to Pilate; “His blood be on us and on our children.”

Matthew 27
22 Pilate said to them, “What then shall I do with Jesus who is called Christ?”
They all said to him, “Let Him be crucified!”
23 Then the governor said, “Why, what evil has He done?”
But they cried out all the more, saying, “Let Him be crucified!”
24 When Pilate saw that he could not prevail at all, but rather that a tumult was rising, he took water and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, “I am innocent of the blood of this just Person. You see to it.”
25 And all the people answered and said, “His blood be on us and on our children.” 26 Then he released Barabbas to them; and when he had scourged Jesus, he delivered Him to be crucified.



I am not intent on converting theists. I think everybody has the right to belief what he or she wants.

LOL Anyone who declares that God does not exist is working to deconvert followers of Jesus.



Atheism is not a belief.

Yes it is. If it wasn't a belief it would not have a name. Atheism is the belief that there is no God.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

In some cases yeah.

Then atheists are needed by God. So why punish them ?


The movement to kill Jesus came from the Jewish religious authorities who manoeuvred the local roman authorities into a position where they where damned if they killed Jesus and they where Damned if they did not. But right near the end of the crisis the Jews took back the responsibility when they shouted to Pilate; “His blood be on us and on our children.”

Matthew 27
22 Pilate said to them, “What then shall I do with Jesus who is called Christ?”
They all said to him, “Let Him be crucified!”
23 Then the governor said, “Why, what evil has He done?”
But they cried out all the more, saying, “Let Him be crucified!”
24 When Pilate saw that he could not prevail at all, but rather that a tumult was rising, he took water and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, “I am innocent of the blood of this just Person. You see to it.”
25 And all the people answered and said, “His blood be on us and on our children.” 26 Then he released Barabbas to them; and when he had scourged Jesus, he delivered Him to be crucified.

It was still the romans that actually killed him, no ?


LOL Anyone who declares that God does not exist is working to deconvert followers of Jesus.

Those are your views, not mine.


Yes it is. If it wasn't a belief it would not have a name. Atheism is the belief that there is no God.

What kinda nonsense is that ? "If it wasn't a belief it would not have a name."
So peanutbutter is a belief ?

Atheism
Atheism, as a philosophical view, is the position that either affirms the nonexistence of gods or rejects theism. When defined more broadly, atheism is the absence of belief in deities, alternatively called nontheism.

either affirms the nonexistence of gods

Your own definition shows that atheism is a belief. If you affirm a belief (the non-existence of gods) then you have a belief in the non existence of gods.

It is so simple, so clear, why can’t you understand it? atheism is a belief.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Then atheists are needed by God. So why punish them ?

Because they have rejected the Love of the Truth, Gods using atheists or not using atheists has no bearing on the issue of their eternal destination.


It was still the romans that actually killed him, no ?

The Romans where the tools used by the religious authorities of the jews to carry out their desire.


Those are your views, not mine.

Why even make such a statement?


What kinda nonsense is that ? "If it wasn't a belief it would not have a name."
So peanutbutter is a belief ?

Ummm.. are you serious?


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Because they have rejected the Love of the Truth, Gods using atheists or not using atheists has no bearing on the issue of their eternal destination.

God made them no? And he needed them to be atheists no? :bugeye: These are your beliefs not mine.


The Romans where the tools used by the religious authorities of the jews to carry out their desire.

You are delusional right ?


Why even make such a statement?

Someone that simply has no belief in whatever God is not automatically working to convert those who do believe in a God.


Ummm.. are you serious?

Are you ? It follows from your statement.

Your own definition shows that atheism is a belief. If you affirm a belief (the non-existence of gods) then you have a belief in the non existence of gods.

It is so simple, so clear, why can’t you understand it? atheism is a belief.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

How does that follow from the definition i gave you ? I does not.

God made them no? And he needed them to be atheists no? :bugeye: These are your beliefs not mine.

I did not state that as a belief. Please do not put words into my mouth. I do not believe this. ok.


You are delusional right ?

Is this an well thought out argument to promote your view?? If it is then your not convincing anyone.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Most if not all theists belief God always was.
If that were true what did he do for kicks the eternity before he created the heavens and earth and all that ??

Not trying to bash religion here, im just curious as to what believers make of this.


Since noone is interested in asnwering this question anymore i suggest this thread to be closed.

I´m interested

It once again turned into somesort of fight about God, which was not what i had in mind for this thread.

At the beginning, it was all a unity, it was God. But then God separated himself in order for all the parts to realize they are all one, and become God again. This is a process of billions of years, and it is cyclic.

At the beginning, it was all a unity, it was God. But then God separated himself in order for all the parts to realize they are all one, and become God again.

"I god am one! Wait.. I'm going to separate myself into bits so I realise I am one".

What complete, utter, absolute, mind blowingly moronic horse shit.


No offence.

"I god am one! Wait.. I'm going to separate myself into bits so I realise I am one".

What complete, utter, absolute, mind blowingly moronic horse shit.


No offence.

non-taken, I don´t even know what came to me in that post, I think I was possessed by forces external to my control :D

At the beginning, it was all a unity, it was God. But then God separated himself in order for all the parts to realize they are all one, and become God again. This is a process of billions of years, and it is cyclic.

Hmm.. Ok but you cant say "At the beginning" if God always was.

*************
M*W: If there were a god, there would be no atheists. Then we'd all be believers.

*************
M*W: If there were a god, there would be no atheists. Then we'd all be believers.

if there was a material world, there would be room for atheists in god's creation
:eek:

if there was a material world, there would be room for atheists in god's creation
:eek:

So God created atheists then ?
Why? So he can throw them into the flames of hell, so he would never have to be bored again ?

Question: How can it be that a complex being such as God just always was ?

Hmm.. Ok but you cant say "At the beginning" if God always was.

As I said, it is cyclic. I say "beggining" as in the "Big Bang", when God separated himself to understand himself better. I say beggining to put a starting point on the circle.

So God created atheists then ?
Why? So he can throw them into the flames of hell, so he would never have to be bored again ?

Question: How can it be that a complex being such as God just always was ?

Yes, God created everyone. The thing is, we are all in here to learn more about ourselves, that is the pupose, to learn.

Most if not all theists belief God always was.
If that were true what did he do for kicks the eternity before he created the heavens and earth and all that ?? :confused:

Not trying to bash religion here, im just curious as to what believers make of this.

You're applying a timeline to God's eternity.

Before God created time, there was no such thing as "eternity", or, the amount of "time" before God created the Universe.

What's God up to right now?

What's God up to right now?

he is cofused with your avatar

So God created atheists then ?
he created separated parts and parcels of himself (although created isn't the right word - contingent would be better) ... which necessitates a degree of independence


Why? So he can throw them into the flames of hell, so he would never have to be bored again ?
one explanation is that for god to be truly omnipotent he must exhibit the inferior potencies as well as the superior ones - hence, smaller than the atom is ....

sūkṣmāṇām apy ahaḿ jīvo
"amongst minute things I am the living entity"

Question: How can it be that a complex being such as God just always was ?
what to speak of god always being, we also exist eternally - its the nature of consciousness (as distinct from matter)

What's God up to right now?

the same thing as always - having a good time
:cool:

I guess you all noticed i have a problem with the notion of God always having existed. I havent been able to express myself about it but now i found this and it reflects my ideas about the matter exactly:

"a deity capable of engineering all the organised complexity in the world, either instantaneously or by guiding evolution, . . . must already have been vastly complex in the first place . . ."
Richard Dawkins calls this "postulating organised complexity without offering an explanation"
from The Blind Watchmaker by Richard Dawkins

Any thoughts ?

I guess you all noticed i have a problem with the notion of God always having existed. I havent been able to express myself about it but now i found this and it reflects my ideas about the matter exactly:

"a deity capable of engineering all the organised complexity in the world, either instantaneously or by guiding evolution, . . . must already have been vastly complex in the first place . . ."
Richard Dawkins calls this "postulating organised complexity without offering an explanation"
from The Blind Watchmaker by Richard Dawkins

Any thoughts ?

for as long as abiogenesis remains unevidenced, there are problems with postulating organized simplicity too

for as long as abiogenesis remains unevidenced, there are problems with postulating organized simplicity too

Maybe but its, at least to me, a whole lot more plausible then addressing it to any God.