Report: Hamas will recognize Israel (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1143498851330&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull)
According to a Thursday report on Al-Jazeera, the Hamas government will recognize Israel if Israel withdraws to the 1967 borders.
The UN resolution which created Israel also created a Palestinian state. Israel immediately refused to recognize Palestine since it sat on land Israel coveted, namely Jerusalem. Arab nations (and the Palestinians) responded by refusing to recognize Israel. Israel made it easier by refusing to officially draw their own borders, and that's been the root cause of all the unrest ever since. Israel wants to be recognized but refuses the same right to the Palestinians.

So, with HAMAS now willing to recognize Israel, the burden shifts to Israel to recognize the right of the Palestinians to also have their own nation. And I fully expect we will see Israel continue to act like the suggestion of a Palestinian state is the most ridiculous idea in the world.

Watch out, you'll be accused of bashing Israel with that news!

:rolleyes:

- N

If Israel truly does not consider themselves above the Palestinians, if they truly do not believe that they are some kind of chosen people, if they truly understand that they have no God given right to Palestinian land, and if they truly want peace, like many people on this board suggest, they will pull back to the originally drawn borders before the Arab-Israeli War.

The fact that Israel refuses goes against the majority of arguments some of the members on this board are making.

Watch out, you'll be accused of bashing Israel with that news!

:rolleyes:

- N
I can just here it from the pro-Israel lobby here on sciforums

" Brian Foley is a "

[ Insert drumroll here conductor ]

" Anti-Semite !!!! "

[Insert crashing cymbals here conductor]

If Israel truly does not consider themselves above the Palestinians, if they truly do not believe that they are some kind of chosen people, if they truly understand that they have no God given right to Palestinian land, and if they truly want peace, like many people on this board suggest, they will pull back to the originally drawn borders before the Arab-Israeli War.

The fact that Israel refuses goes against the majority of arguments some of the members on this board are making.
Giving Palestinians their own state accoring to within the borders of pre 1967 is completely unacceptable to Israel . It would mean Israel recognises the Palestinians as a distinct people with a national identity , something Israel has refused to acknowledge . The fact Israel refers to Palestinians within Israel with citizenship as Arab Israelis and those residing in the territories as stateless persons who are in their eyes are Jordanian . Fact is Quark the Palestinians have not disappeared and blended in to the surrounding Arab populations as the Israelis hoped in 1948 , they are still there claiming a nation .

Anyway reading your post I must say I am impressed with its intelligence , I enjoy reading posts such as that . Today is Saturady my day to get drunk tonite and Im buying you a round :)

http://www.publish.csiro.au/helix/cf/images/th51a31.jpg

If Israel truly does not consider themselves above the Palestinians, if they truly do not believe that they are some kind of chosen people, if they truly understand that they have no God given right to Palestinian land, and if they truly want peace, like many people on this board suggest, they will pull back to the originally drawn borders before the Arab-Israeli War.

The fact that Israel refuses goes against the majority of arguments some of the members on this board are making.- In Israel's defence, the land that they'd have to give away is very useful strategically, with hills and stuff. Giving away strategical pieces of land is not something you want to do unless you're 100% sure it'll end the armed conflict.

And can the Israelis really be that sure? I don't know, but I kind of doubt they will be. Talk is cheap, and some might say especially so when it comes from terrorist organizations.

"Hamas will recognize Israel"

goody!

- In Israel's defence, the land that they'd have to give away is very useful strategically, with hills and stuff. Giving away strategical pieces of land is not something you want to do unless you're 100% sure it'll end the armed conflict.

And can the Israelis really be that sure? I don't know, but I kind of doubt they will be. Talk is cheap, and some might say especially so when it comes from terrorist organizations.

Especially in conjunction with the concept of "hudna". Look it up.

Permanent peace looks very much like an illusion.

Geoff

So, with HAMAS now willing to recognize Israel, the burden shifts to Israel to recognize the right of the Palestinians to also have their own nation. And I fully expect we will see Israel continue to act like the suggestion of a Palestinian state is the most ridiculous idea in the world.

Err...haven't the Israelis already accepted a two-state solution? Wasn't that their position at Oslo??

Frankly, I fully expect to see you argue anyway that the Israelis accepting the two-state solution somehow still means they think "the suggestion of a Palestinian state is the most ridiculous idea in the world".

Geoff

Hmm, I wonder how much this had to do with their funding drying up... ;) Either way, it seems a good start.

I can just here it from the pro-Israel lobby here on sciforums

" Brian Foley is a "

[ Insert drumroll here conductor ]

" Anti-Semite !!!! "

But y'are laddy, y'are; and not for this thread, but for suggesting Purim was a celebration of mass murder. I agree that mere criticism of Israel is not anti-semitism.

On the subject at hand, it is a small improvement, but largely symbolic, since Israel will not withdraw unless the terror situation is resolved. Indeed, why should they, these territories were captured as a result of war, not simply occupied in an unprovoked manner. Palestinians are not coming to the table with clean hands. The arabs (Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon backed up by Iraq, Algeria, Kuwait, and Sudan) cannot fight a war (The six-day war) and then turn around to claim victimhood on the occupied territories. They need to offer something in return, namely an end to the intifada, if they want the land they lost.

Anyone... why the hell all the fuzz about 'recognizing' eachother? Is it just a stupid diplomatic formality or does it actually have purpose

It doesn't even sound that diplomatic, more like a propaganda tool that Hamas can use among it's supporters.

So Hamas now acknowledges Israel, strange indeed, seems like they change their message every week. First, when still being terrorists, they wanted to eradicate Israel, when out for the votes they wanted to leave it to the next genereation to eradicate Israel. Now, when in charge and with a lack of income they suddenly acknowledge...

I am tempted to agree with spidergoat, it does look like a propaganda tool, I cannot believe that they changed their views so much. Alas, there is the probability that they now feel the responsibility that comes with governing a country, making them less fundamental and more peace-loving.

I also do not know if Israel wants to part with that much land, after all, they have some, or better, more political weight than the Palastinians. I suppose they will try to bargain about it. But I am quite sceptical about all this, and frankly, I am losing faith in Hamas, their views are quite prone to changes recently, much more than seems possible for them.

Err...haven't the Israelis already accepted a two-state solution? Wasn't that their position at Oslo??

Frankly, I fully expect to see you argue anyway that the Israelis accepting the two-state solution somehow still means they think "the suggestion of a Palestinian state is the most ridiculous idea in the world".
The Oslo Accord of 1993 granted the Palestinians 22% of their historic nation, the Palestinians agreed to surrender the remaining 78 percent to Israel as part of the Land-for-Peace that Oslo promised. Camp David the follow up to Oslo offered the Palestinians 91% of that 22% the concession was constantly being whittled away. The Palestinian West Bank has 400,000 Israelis squatters living in 200 “settlements" in the area. That’s approximately one settlement per 20km2. So there you have it the 91% offer to Palestine was simply this: 3 separate land allotments , divested of prime agricultural real estate, diminished in water supply, surrounded by armed squatter settlements protected by Israeli troops, a human cage sealed off from its current international borders, and laden with toxic waste dumps. In other words a state destined to fail any moral leader would have rejected them too…..and that’s what Arafat did may his soul rest in peace.
Hmm, I wonder how much this had to do with their funding drying up...
Yeah and when America goes belly up which it is rather rapidly funding for Israel will go dry up as well then you can know what its like to be a Palestinian .
But y'are laddy, y'are; and not for this thread, but for suggesting Purim was a celebration of mass murder. I agree that mere criticism of Israel is not anti-semitism.
Ah Purim is a celebration of mass murder .
On the subject at hand, it is a small improvement, but largely symbolic, since Israel will not withdraw unless the terror situation is resolved.
I think in a couple of years Israel will be withdrawing into the Mediterranean Sea , America its protector is rapidly dissolving into bankruptcy .

Educate us some more:

America its protector is rapidly dissolving into bankruptcy .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)

I think in a couple of years Israel will be withdrawing into the Mediterranean Sea , America its protector is rapidly dissolving into bankruptcy .
Ah, the irony - Hamas will accept Israel's existence but Foley won't? ;)

As far as diplomacy goes, so far the only Arab countries to recognise Israel are Egypt and Jordan and those are also the only two having peace treaties with Israel. An initiative (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative) floated a few years ago by the Saudi crown prince suggests that all Arab countries could begin diplomatic relations with Israel, conditional on the conflict's ending.

Educate us some more:
United States Congressional Record - March 17, 1993 - Vol. #33, page H-1303 - Speaker- Rep. James Traficant, Jr. (Ohio) addressing the House:
"Mr. Speaker, we are here now in chapter 11. Members of Congress are official trustees presiding over the greatest reorganization of any Bankrupt entity in world history, the U.S. Government. We are setting forth hopefully, a blueprint for our future. There are some who say it is a coroner's report that will lead to our demise."
And once again what country were you born in ?
Ah, the irony - Hamas will accept Israel's existence but Foley won't? ;)
That is how reasonable HAMAS is Zephyr , they will recognise Israel if Israel regognises a Palestinian state pre 1967 borders wity Jerusalem as its capital , Israel has refused .
As far as diplomacy goes, so far the only Arab countries to recognise Israel are Egypt and Jordan and those are also the only two having peace treaties with Israel. An initiative (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative) floated a few years ago by the Saudi crown prince suggests that all Arab countries could begin diplomatic relations with Israel, conditional on the conflict's ending.
And both countries Egypt and Jordan did so at Americas prodding , it cost America a very expensive freetrade deal with Jordan and some couple of billion $ in extra aid to Egypt . That fact is this Israel is an extremly expensive waste of money for American people . And as for the Saudi deal that also was at Americas prodding it went nowhere , Israel is a pariah state . The only thing that keeps that $hithole afloat is the American Jewish lobby and when america goes bankrupt Israel goes with it .

Foley lives, apparently.

The Oslo Accord of 1993 granted the Palestinians 22% of their historic nation, the Palestinians agreed to surrender the remaining 78 percent to Israel as part of the Land-for-Peace that Oslo promised. Camp David the follow up to Oslo offered the Palestinians 91% of that 22% the concession was constantly being whittled away.

The 78% you speak of was won after a war with Arab forces in the region - there need never have been any such partition if there hadn't been such poor treatment of the Jewish immigrants and if Arabist forces hadn't started the fighting. Given that their mandate was to exterminate all Jewish people in the region - one Arab official is quoted as saying he didn't expect any of them to be allowed to survive; another vows to wash Israel off the map in blood; and so on, ad nauseaum - I can say I'm somewhat sympathetic to the Palestinians' predicament, and also somewhat not sympathetic. Ultimately, if sharia had allowed the locals to treat the Jewish immigrants equally there probably would be no "Middle East Situation" today.

Ah Purim is a celebration of mass murder .

No, it's a celebration of survival. The "mass murder" you speak of isn't even proven. This has been proven on another thread.

It does however go to show that no amount of withdrawal by Israelis from land they fairly won (honestly: can anyone see Germany petitioning Poland for Prussia back?) could possibly appease you. I agree that the plight of the Palestinians today is not good, but by the same token Israel's history is vindicated by the extreme violence shown them.

Geoff

James Traficant's in prison Foley. The U.S economy has been worse in the past 20\25 years then topped out w\ Clinton. Just showing you that you proficies are most likely very wrong.

And once again what country were you born in ?

what the hell's that got to do w\ anything? :)

Please check your messages, Buffalo

"That is how reasonable HAMAS is Zephyr , they will recognise Israel if Israel regognises a Palestinian state pre 1967 borders wity Jerusalem as its capital , Israel has refused ."

Why should Isreal give it back?? Isreal was ATTACKED and won that land fair and square. If the Arabs would have stayed on thier side of the fence that land would still belong to the Palastinians. Whats wrong Brian? Cant handle the fact that Isreal kicked the shit out of your Arab friends?

And who are you to preach about the American economy when your precious Hamas has to beg for global welfare handouts? Did you send your monthly check to to Hamas?

If the Arabs would have stayed on thier side of the fence that land would still belong to the Palastinians.
If the Arabs had not of intervened the entire palestinian population would of been forced out as it is there are some 5 million Palestinians inside their indigenous native lands .
Whats wrong Brian? Cant handle the fact that Isreal kicked the shit out of your Arab friends?
That was way back when in the day when Arab nations were weal and inexperienced . However as evidenced today with Iran and Iraq its America which has to fight Israels enemies . Fact is when America dissappears up its asshole into economic obl;ivion , Israel is going be flattened .
And who are you to preach about the American economy when your precious Hamas has to beg for global welfare handouts? Did you send your monthly check to to Hamas?
They are not begging the Arab nations , Iran and even Russia is giving money , the fact is Americas/Israels gambit is falling over , your nation is a has been .

Can you feel the love?

Foley, your claims have been deconstructed time and again, and time and again you refuse to acknowledge it. There's never any change in the pattern. You make outlandish claims, someone - in this case Alejandro - flattens you on it and then you run for the cover of denial, all the while spouting anti-Americanism and anti-semitism.

If the Arabs had not of intervened the entire palestinian population would of been forced out

Oh? And once Israel won, what exactly was stopping the Israelis from forcing them out anyway? The Arab armies of the region had been comprehensively beaten. What specific force was preventing the Israelis from doing exactly as you insist they were going to do? The Arab armies were beaten. Why didn't Israel force them out then? They'd won. They could have done whatever they wanted. Why didn't they do exactly what you say they were going to do?

Sad.

I recommend you run for it again and pretend you couldn't read this post, like you once lied and pretended you'd never been able to read one of my links. Given the direct contrast between your version of Israel's intentions and the fact of their actual actions (not to mention "Plan D"), it's all you've got left.

Geoff

Foley, your claims have been deconstructed time and again, and time and again you refuse to acknowledge it.
Where ? As far as I know I demonstrated to you that it was Hagannah that iniated military operations against the Palestinians and your only defence was that it was Palestinian riots that were the start of military operations .
There's never any change in the pattern.
Your pattern is all to obvious you simply provide an opinion which you cannot substantiate and when confronted with sources that destroy your argument you simply play ignorant and carry on regardless . Its is evident to many other posters on sciforums as on the CNN thread where Neildo and Quarkmoon voluntarily opine that :
CNN caught Lying and thrown out of Iran (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=51540&page=4&pp=20)
[QUOTE=QuarkMoon]Well, it seems to me Geoff is avoiding the issue and is instead just arguing with you. If this were an official debate, it would have been called off 2 pages ago. Instead of addressing the issues you raise that are backed up by some evidence, he is instead responding to your opinions. Admittedly your opinions are radical and just plain ignorant, but you still bring up valid points. I would say Geoff is losing this one.
But he's already given proof (if you can call it that as there's no way to prove the non-existance of something) of Iran not developing any nuclear weapons from the words of the IAEA, etc. That's much better than the only things that says Iran *is* developing nukes, are all mere "fears", "suspects", etc..
Your are nut , you arguments have been quashed everywhere , you initiate a post to prove that Jews were a race and then on my post 2 weeks later you say that Jews aren’t a race ! You contradict yourself over and over again .
Oh? And once Israel won, what exactly was stopping the Israelis from forcing them out anyway? The Arab armies of the region had been comprehensively beaten. What specific force was preventing the Israelis from doing exactly as you insist they were going to do? The Arab armies were beaten. Why didn't Israel force them out then? They'd won. They could have done whatever they wanted. Why didn't they do exactly what you say they were going to do?
Israel did not comprehensively beat the Arab armies they managed to consolidate about 70% of what was Palestine the Jordanians controlled the West Bank and Jerusalem the Egyptians the Gaza . The Arab armies remained in a form that was capable of resistance as 6000 Jewish war dead is testament to this that is what prevented the Jews from fully expelling the Palestinians into refugee oblivion .
I recommend you run for it again and pretend you couldn't read this post, like you once lied and pretended you'd never been able to read one of my links.
You my link , the link to a story I asked you for and you couldn’t find so you took my ABC newslink and attached your name to it LOL . There is a word for you COMPULSIVE LIAR
Given the direct contrast between your version of Israel's intentions and the fact of their actual actions (not to mention "Plan D"), it's all you've got left.
You mean how I introduced Plan D to prove Israeli attacks on civilian villages was part of the Israeli war plan , which Plan D clearly states , and then later you turn it on its head in another post and attempt I was implying this was ethnic cleansing ? ROFL !

Your claim that you are a teacher at a university I find that claim is a figment of your fantastic imagination .

Where ? As far as I know I demonstrated to you that it was Hagannah that iniated military operations against the Palestinians and your only defence was that it was Palestinian riots that were the start of military operations .

Then you truly know quite little.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli_War

"Under the leadership of Haj Amin al-Husayni, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, the local Arabs rebelled against the British, and attacked the growing Jewish population repeatedly. These sporadic attacks began with the riots in Palestine of 1920 and Jaffa riots (or "Hurani Riots") of 1921. During the riots in Palestine of 1929, 67 Jews were massacred in Hebron, and the survivors were driven out."

Followed up with

"The attacks on the Jewish population by Arabs had three lasting effects: First, they led to the formation and development of Jewish underground militias, primarily the Haganah ("The Defense"), which were to prove decisive in 1948."

Your requirement of cohesive military action to call the conflict is laughable. The Haganah were formed to counter the threat of Arab violence, notably on the scale of the riots and massacres at Hebron and Jaffa. If a horde of armed men attacks your village, unless they're also shooting at each other and in all directions, it counts as "military operations" - just poorly organized ones.

And thus, it was indeed Palestinians who started the violence.

From a related link:

Your pattern is all to obvious you simply provide an opinion which you cannot substantiate and when confronted with sources that destroy your argument you simply play ignorant and carry on regardless . Its is evident to many other posters on sciforums

LMAO - the argument-runner and duck-and-cover expert tells me I'm playing ignorant. Show me some recent comments by other posters, Foley. Maybe Diamond would support you.

You know - the one who wants to kill apostates and homosexuals.

Anyway, this is a very old whine of yours. After I posted the new evidence, did either one come back to contradict me? No. Either they couldn't be bothered supporting you (although Neildo does a very good impression of an a anti-Semite) or they don't support you any longer. You yourself couldn't generate any kind of any reasoned argument against the point, and so resorted to ad hominem and ludicrous extrapolation. Ask not who wrote in half way, but who won the thread.

Your are nut , you arguments have been quashed everywhere

LMAO! You've lost every-single-argument on this site, and everyone can see it.

you initiate a post to prove that Jews were a race and then on my post 2 weeks later you say that Jews aren’t a race ! You contradict yourself over and over again .

OMG. Do you ever get tired of lying? "Initiate a post"?

I - and this is something you should try, Foley - reviewed the evidence for the genetic differentiation of European and Occidental Jewish people in comparison to that of Palestinians and found that there was no genetic differentiation among them. This utterly obliterated your hypothesis that Jewish people had no "genetic right of return" since they were merely Europeans and unrelated to the local inhabitants of the Israel/Palestine area. You then tried a variant of the "Khazar hypothesis" and when I broke that on the basis of sheer demography and common sense you were so scared you ran from genetics like a bar of soap. You've been scared to touch the subject ever again, save to try and paint my change of opinion - on reviewing the evidence; again, you should try this sometime, Foley - as a contradiction! It's possibly the most pathetic thing I've ever seen on an internet forum of any kind. Not only that, but my review found that you were even wronger than I thought! And all the while you flip back and forth on your own position so that you can first call Jewish people "genetic vagrants" and then speculate that the OT is racist so you can accuse Jewish people of racism!

Staggering.

Anyway, the thread's there for all to see, Foley. I wouldn't draw attention to it if I were you. Not good for your credibility.

Israel did not comprehensively beat the Arab armies they managed to consolidate about 70% of what was Palestine the Jordanians controlled the West Bank and Jerusalem the Egyptians the Gaza . The Arab armies remained in a form that was capable of resistance as 6000 Jewish war dead is testament to this that is what prevented the Jews from fully expelling the Palestinians into refugee oblivion .

Right, right - the Arab armies just...what? Realized they were late for a soccer match and wandered away. Is that it? And the Israelis later took those places too - so why didn't they do exactly as you suggest? And why did they let any Palestinians back in? Your arguments are a study in contrasting logic, Foley.

You my link , the link to a story I asked you for and you couldn’t find so you took my ABC newslink and attached your name to it LOL . There is a word for you COMPULSIVE LIAR

First - that's TWO words. :rolleyes:

Second - I erred about the title. But you clearly saw the link, and read it, and you then referred to it all through the page. And I proved it, and you denied it anyway. I own up to my errors, Foley. I understand that not everyone - well...not you anyway - is that honest, of course.

You're a liar, Foley. No gods, no masters, no honesty.

You mean how I introduced Plan D to prove Israeli attacks on civilian villages was part of the Israeli war plan , which Plan D clearly states , and then later you turn it on its head in another post and attempt I was implying this was ethnic cleansing ? ROFL !

LOL - so you claim Plan D was about attacking villages and driving the inhabitants out, and then you say that this (your little version of reality)wasn't ethnic cleansing, even after you compare it to Purim, which you say was ethnic cleansing.

Your claim that you are a teacher at a university I find that claim is a figment of your fantastic imagination .

Gee, this from the guy who claims his daddy was stationed in Israel so he can invent some ludicrous rationale to hate Jewish people. :rolleyes: Hey, did you ever figure out if you thought CAIR was a reasonable organization? I understand you'll just keep switching opinion back and forth so I suppose any statement by you would be useless anyway.

Geoff

Then you truly know quite little.
For the Last time the claim from you is who started military operations against whom ?
21 December 1947 (http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Palestine-Remembered/Story564.html#1948)
attacked Palestinians Haganah and IZL attack villages and Bedouin settlements of coastal plain north of Tel Aviv in first coastal "clearing" operation.Haganah and IZL paramilitary gangs perpetrate Balad al-Shaykh (Haifa) massacre, in which more than 60 civilians are murdered.
And in true GeoffP style you turn it on its head and imply
And thus, it was indeed Palestinians who started the violence.
It is now become the start of Violence not the start of military operations .

Take note readers this is clear evidence of Geoff once again contradicting himself :

You've lost every-single-argument on this site, and everyone can see it.
Yeah suuuuree any quotes from other posters like I can to back up you are a loser ROFL .
. Ask not who wrote in half way, but who won the thread TRANSLATION: Geoff lost big time . Anyway, the thread's there for all to see, Foley. I wouldn't draw attention to it if I were you. Not good for your credibility. Why not were are still waiting for your boast at the end of the thread for an update which will blow us all away ! Anyway I will draw attention to it anyway , here is his boast . New study finds that you get what you ask for (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=53002&page=2)Done and done. New update tomorrow on why you're even wronger than you know.And when we reminded him for this update , here is his climb down . For? I finished you two nimrods easily. Do I even need to post anything more at this stage? I've got papers to send to Genetics, Am Nat and Human Immunology to finish, punk. ROFL Right, right - the Arab armies just...what? Realized they were late for a soccer match and wandered away. Is that it? And the Israelis later took those places too - so why didn't they do exactly as you suggest? And why did they let any Palestinians back in? Your arguments are a study in contrasting logic, Foley.
Second - I erred about the title. But you clearly saw the link, and read it, and you then referred to it all through the page. And I proved it, and you denied it anyway. I own up to my errors, Foley. I understand that not everyone - well...not you anyway - is that honest, of course.

Errors they become not outright LIES .
LOL - so you claim Plan D was about attacking villages and driving the inhabitants out, and then you say that this (your little version of reality)wasn't ethnic cleansing, even after you compare it to Purim, which you say was ethnic cleansing.
I did not compare it to Purim , could you quote me where I compared Plan D to Purim , I introduced Plan D on another thread to show where Israelis had a plan of attacking deliberately civilian areas and putting them to flight . On that Purim thread I compared the Israeli captains claim of killing by shelling Palestinian neighbourhoods a tactic to prevent the killings of Jews as prevention and likened it to the Purimfest a highly accurate comparison .
I understand you'll just keep switching opinion back and forth so I suppose any statement by you would be useless anyway.
Yep I gotcha you haven’t any defence against my accusations of your LIES and contradictions on sciforums .

And from here, of course, the thread devolves into a series of
personal attacks that I have since deleted.

In the future, I will be locking threads that go down this road, and will ensure
that *all* participants have to go another forum to carry on their enlightened
conversations. I don't care who "starts it".