Hamas, Islamic Jihad reject truce, pledge more attacks

By Reuters




GAZA - Palestinian Islamic militants rejected a cease-fire plan reached in talks between Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat and Foreign Minister Shimon Peres in the Gaza Strip on Wednesday, officials said.

Islamic Jihad spokesman Abdallah al-Shami said his group, which has been behind a spate of suicide bombings, would continue to attack Israel despite the forging of a deal aimed at ending a year of violence in which more than 700 people have died.

Asked whether Islamic Jihad would continue suicide bombings, Shami said: "Resistance and Jihad [holy war] will continue and if the Israelis stop killing our civilians, we will stop killing theirs. But if they reject them, martyrdom [suicide] operations will go on."

A leader of the militant Islamic Hamas group, Ismail Abu Shanab, said Hamas was "committed to resisting the occupation until it is removed".

Hamas and Islamic Jihad oppose interim Israeli-Palestinian peace deals signed since 1993. They have been behind a suicide bombing campaign that has gained momentum since a Palestinian revolt against Israeli occupation erupted last September after peace negotiations deadlocked.

<i>"<b>But if they reject them,</b> martyrdom [suicide] operations will go on."</i>

<b><i>"But if they reject them..."</i></b>

What the hell does that mean?

I think what he ment was if they ignore the palestinians every desire and dont kiss their dirty, warty asses, then they will continue to do suicide bombings. Well I'll tell you what, they can continue to do suicide bombings until theres not one willing bomber left on this earth.

BTW I'm not surprised. They dont want compromise they want everything. I'm saddened that something like sept. 11th had to happen in order to open their (USA) eyes but hopefully now they realize the terrorists arent 'freedom fighters'.

hag Sameach

Step off son!!!! your people are just as guilty of terror in that part of the world as the Palestinians.

Hey here's an idea what if Isreal got the fuck out of Palestine....hmmm no more conflict...simple ha?

You guys really don't have a clue do you? Talk about bias... Tell me, who's trying to scupper peace?


Mideast,sched-3rdlead
Israeli troops kill five Palestinians, rattling truce accord
ATTENTION -death toll, CHANGES advised dateline ///

GAZA CITY, Sept 27 (AFP) - Israeli troops killed five Palestinians in the
Gaza Strip on Thursday, rattling a fresh accord to secure a lasting truce on
the eve of the first anniversary of the uprising in the West Bank and Gaza
Strip.
The latest deaths came just a day after Israeli Foreign Minister Shimon
Peres and Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat agreed to work to consolidate an
elusive ceasefire.
They met under strong US pressure for a drop in regional tensions, viewed
as crucial to its bid to pull together a global coalition against terrorism in
the wake of the September 11 terror attacks.
Hospital sources said Ali Salem Abu Balima, a 24-year-old man with
psychiatric problems, was riddled with seven bullets after apparently
approaching soldiers guarding the settlement of Kfar Darom.
And a 15-year-old boy, Muawieha Ali Nahal, was struck by several bullets in
the chest near Rafah, a flashpoint in the southern Gaza Strip near the
Egyptian border, the sources said.
Another three Palestinians died in Israeli tank fire earlier Thursday and
more than 30 others were wounded, including five youths, during an army
incursion in the same sector.
The tanks fired with heavy machine-guns and cannons on a nearby refugee
camp, Palestinian security sources said. Eight houses were destroyed by
Israeli bulldozers, which also took part in the incursion launched overnight.
A total of 827 people have now been killed in the intifada, or uprising,
which broke out on September 28, 2000, a tally which includes 635 Palestinians
and 169 Israelis.

do i needa remind you that mortars were fired before the Israeli retaliation.

from http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=78048

Four Palestinians killed in Gaza; mortars fired at Gush Katif

By Amos Harel, Ha'aretz Correspondent, Ha'aretz Service and Reuters





A Palestinian boy running for cover from shooting in the Gaza Strip.
(Photo: Reuters)

Four Palestinians were killed Thursday and at least twenty-seven others were wounded in clashes with IDF soldiers in the Gaza Strip, including one man who has been declared clincally dead, Palestinian sources said.

The violence comes despite a meeting Wednesday between Foreign Minister Shimon Peres and Palestinian Authority Chairman, which ended in an agreement to uphold the newly established cease-fire. Israeli and Palestinian officials are to meet Friday in a meeting that will include CIA representatives, in an effort to renew the joint security cooperation that crumbled not long after the intifada broke out a year ago.

Palestinian hospital sources said Thursday that IDF troops had shot dead a Palestinian teenager at the Rafah refugee camp in the Gaza Strip. They named the teenager as 15-year-old Muawiah al-Nahal and said he had been standing with a friend on a street corner when soldiers opened fire from a heavy machine gun atop a tank positioned at a nearby IDF post.

Soldiers also shot dead a Palestinian man near a Jewish settlement in central Gaza. 30-year-old Ali Abu Blaima, described by his family as mentally disturbed, was shot by a road leading to the Kfar Darom settlement, the sources said.

Three mortars were fired at the Gush Katif settlement bloc in the Gaza Strip on Thursday night. In addition, sporadic gunfights took place between IDF soldiers and armed Palestinians at the Neve Dekalim industrial zone, also in the Gaza Strip. No injuries were reported in either incident.

In a separate incident early Thursday morning, three Palestinians were killed and at least 27 others were wounded, four of them critically, in a gun battle between IDF troops and Palestinian gunmen at Rafah in the Gaza Strip, Palestinian hospital sources said. A three-storey building hit by tank shells lay in ruins and several others had been hit.

Members of the militant Muslim group Hamas drove through Rafah, telling people over loudspeakers to ignore the agreement by Arafat and Peres to implement a truce plan.

Palestinian sources reported Wednesday afternoon that a 14-year-old Palestinian boy was killed and eight Palestinians were injured, five of them seriously, in clashes with IDF soldiers in Rafah. The clashes continued during the Peres-Arafat meeting Wednesday. As Arafat and Peres met, Palestinian teenagers threw stones at an IDF post five kilometers (three miles) from the airport. Soldiers responded with tear gas and live rounds.

One of those wounded in Wednesday's shooting incident was a Egyptian policeman stationed on the Egyptian side of Rafah, which borders Egypt. Captain Amr Taha Mohamed, a police officer in his 20s, was hit in the thigh.

Heavy shooting in Rafah after explosion in IDF post
A powerful bomb ripped apart a wall at an IDF base Wednesday in southern Gaza, injuring three soldiers lightly. The blast occurred five hours before Peres was to enter the strip at a nearby crossing point. The bomb was set at the end of a tunnel dug from the nearby Palestinian town of Rafah to just under the Tarmit IDF outpost, military sources said.

The IDF said that Mohammed Dahlan, head of Palestinian preventive security, knew about the tunnel that was dug under the IDF post, and in which 100 kilograms of explosives were set off.

Heavy shooting begin in the area immediately after the explosion. IDF troops encircled the post with heavy APCs while Palestinians threw grenades. IDF tanks entered a nearby refugee camp, firing shells at it. Five Palestinians were moderately injured during the battles.

...which was in itself retaliation for the death of a 13 year old Palestinian boy. Come on, you can do better than that! You must realise that getting into a 'who shot first' debate is pointless. We'd go all the way back to the 1930s!

The question is one fo scale. A mortar attack warrants:

The tanks fired with heavy machine-guns and cannons on a nearby refugee
camp, Palestinian security sources said. Eight houses were destroyed by
Israeli bulldozers, which also took part in the incursion launched overnight.


5 dead, 30 wounded.


Show some sense of reason. There must be one or two objective brain cells rattling around in there. Even you cannot condone the huge number of Palestinaians that have been killed or wounded in the past two-three weeks.

if the pals did not fire none of them would have died.
the IDF does not go around looking for how many pals they r gonna kill 2day(if that was the case i'm sure more pals would have died kinda like in jordan in the early 70s or the xtian lebs falangas militia or like egypt in the 60s going out with mags(made in belgium?!) finishing almost the entire rafiach pal camp).
I myself belive that automated repeaters must be installed that will detect any mortar source and within a milisec auto retaliate(bolo brigade rulez) by that either the pals will stop using mortars or Israel is gonna pay alot of money to the pals when they rent land for lunar training.

lets sum it up with this
the real problem is that i am allowed to say whatever i want about Israel's policy,the way it treats the pals,or how bad the prime minister is.
but arabs living in arabic/islamic/west bank,gaza and such are only allowed to say what ever they want about Israel.
human rights violations for the world's nations the report is 4 the year 2000.
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2000/

You miss the point completely.

Is the Palestinian NA the greatest most democratic regime in the world? Of course not, far from it.

But that has nothing to do with a legitimate effort to end Israeli occupation of their land. Simple as that. When they have a sovereign state they are in full control of, we can crtiticise their government as much as we like. Pick on human rghts abuses, whatever. But until occupation ends this is all beside the point.

If we start legitimising violent occupation through a political beauty contest, then you basically piss on the notion of self-determination and sovereignty.

It's like the old issue of slavery - whenever the ethics were considered, the excuse was 'but they can't look after themselves'. That argument just doesn't cut it. It's specious.

If the Palestinians didn't fire they wouldn't get killed. Well if the Israelis didn't attack refugee camps and got the hell out of the West Bank and Gaza as the UN demands, perhaps they wouldn't be killed either. You're going round in circles.

Has the policy of retaliation achieved anything? Have you taught the Palestinians a lesson? Have you bread more hatred?

Israel is on a path to genocide. Ask Elbaz, I'm sure he's all for it.

What the hell is wrong with you captain Canada. You cant see past your nose. Do you realize how many of those palestinians were celebrating sept. 11th. They hate you me the USA every Jew on Earth. They dont want peace....the want to push Israel into the sea. Those who were sending Condolences down in good ol palestine wanted Israeli occupation. They were offered 93% which was considered by many too much. They dont have choice to say if they want to be in israel.......its too dangerous. They have violated the UN and its policies way more than israel ever has. They teach there kids to go and blow themselves up so they can be greeted by virgins. It's a corrupt nation. They want to push israel into the sea. They would bring bin laden into their homes and shower him with praise.

If your such a palestinian fan then why dont you just move down there and see what its like. I've been there, I cant say the same for you though. Radical Lives there and he's obviously more informed than you.

Do they have to poke brittain in the london eye before you get the clue. They dont want peace. They keep asking for more. And like I said----the more they blow themselves up the less of them there will be. If Israel has to assasinate some of them then so be it, I think the Israelis wellbeing is just as important as anyone in the UK.

You call me Bias. Well then your dam straight. I'm biased for freedom and choice, as well as safety. The assasinations might be killing one but those assasinations would save many people from harm. I'm sure the US and UK would do the same.......which reminds me--they are!:D

Why do the pair of you insist on changing the argument and piling on the rhetoric? You're doing just what Radical does, missing the point entirely.

I am not alking about how democratic the Palestinians are in their administartaion of limited self-rule, or what they teach their children, or what they put in their sandwiches. I'm talking about the rights and wrongs of occupation, creeping annexation and international justice.

Let me try and explain it to you in simple terms. If I stole your house and threw you out, and the court (UN) said I have to give it back, it wouldn't care what music you were planning to listen to, decoration you were proposing to put up or even crime you were planning to comit. Neither would the court accept my proposal to give all the house back except the bedroom or kitchen. It's a clear cut case - injustice has occurred, must be rectified, and whatever follows from the rightful occupant is to be dealt with then.

Of course what has happened is that the toughest man on the street has said he likes me (the guy who stole your house) and prefers me to you. Now the court can't do anything because the police aren't strong enough to defeat the tough guy. What do you do? Hang around outside in protest? It gets you nothing but abuse. Start to throw a few rocks at the house? It gets you nothing but a beating, but the tough guy starts to worry because he likes a peaceful neighbourhood. So you try and talk to him, but he won't threaten the guy in the house so you're screwed. All the while he continues to deliver luxury furniture while you hang out in the yard. Then the guy in the house decides the place ain't big enough and wants to start building on the garden!

Look, this has nothing to do with whether the Palestinians show you what you think to be the requisite amount of love or grattitude for, basically, screwing them out of their country. It's about justice, pure and simple. Now we can argue on the justice of the situation all you want. We don't need to have lived there or visited Jerusalem as a tourist to do that. It's an argument based on clear and distinct rights and wrongs in international society. An argument about international justice and sovereignty -self-determination and profit through conquest in the modern world.

So if you want to stick to substantive argument, get back to me. The argument of 'I've been there, therefore my opinion is more valid' is below you. It's the old classic fallacy of 'argument from authority', which is the last resort of the weak intellect. I thought you were more capable than that.

Oh, by the way - since you raise the issue - I have spent a good deal of my life in the middle east, speak and read Arabic, count many Palestinians, Egytpians, Lebanese, Israelis and Jordanians among my best friends and have studied the culture and politics to post-graduate level. Does that make my opinion or argument more valid to you? It shouldn't.

I find myself in a similar position when talking about this with anyone in my family. Since they're Jews, it's almost impossible to even suggest the notion of Israel being at fault here. It's much easier to just presume that "your kind" is right and every last one of "their kind" cannot be trusted (or is outright evil).

They don't seem to realize they themselves are perpetuating the holy war mentality. It also seems to be quite difficult to get them to grasp the *FACT* that that land belonged to the Palestinians before it was decided to take that land and give it to Israel (whose bright idea was that, anyway)? Thus, they are just as irrational as the fanatics on the other side; both sides seem to be content to be warring over a mound of sand.

Israel, created as a Jewish state to help the victims of a genocide recover, has become something like the Nazis themselves. Food for thought.

If you don't mind some cut-n-paste...

<hr>

Palestine
Adaptation of a Greek word meaning Land of Philistines. A historic region on the east coast of the Mediterranean Sea.


600,000 - 10,000
Paleolithic and Mesolithic period. Earliest human remains in the area
(found south of the Lake of Tabariyya), date back to ca. 600,000 BC.


10,000 - 5,000
Neolithic period. Establishment of settled agricultural communities.

8000 BC
Permanent agricultural settlements appeared in Jericho.

5,000 - 3,000
Chalcolithic period. Copper and stone tools and artifacts from this
period found near Jericho, Bi'r As-Sabi' and the Dead Sea.

3,000 - 2,000
Early Bronze Age.Arrival and settlement of the Canaanites (3,000
- 2,500 BC)

1,250
Israelite conquest of Canaan.

1000 BC
Palestine divides into the regions of Judea and Samaria.

965 - 928
King Solomon (Sulayman), construction of the temple in Jerusalem.

928
Division of the Israelite state into the kingdom of Israel and Judah.

721 BC
Samaria destroyed by Assyria.

587 BC
Judea destroyed by Babylonia.

539 BC
Persians conquer Babylonia, allowance of deportees to return and construction of a new temple.

333 BC
Alexander the Great conquers Persia and Palestine comes under the Greek rule.

323 BC
Alexander the Great dies, alternate rule by Ptolemies of Egypt and
Seleucids of Syria.

165 BC
Maccabees revolt against the Seleucid ruler (Antiochus Epiphanes) and
establish an independent state.

63 BC
Incorporation of Palestine into the Roman Empire.


70 AD
Romans shatter Hebrew Statehood.

132-135 AD
Suppression of the Bar Kokhba revolt. Jews barred from Jerusalem and Emperor
Hadrian builds a pagan city on its ruins.

330-638 AD
Palestine under Byzantine rule, Christianity spreads.

638
Omar ibn al-Khattaab enters Jerusalem and ends the Byzantine rule.

641
The Muslim conquest brings Palestine under the sway of the Islamic Caliphate.

661-750
Palestine administered by the Umayyad chaliphs from Damascus and
construct
the Dome of the Rock ('Abd al-Malik, 685-705) and Al-Aqsa in its current
shape (al-Walid, 705-715).

750-1258
Palestine administered from Baghdad by the'Abbasid caliphs.

1071
Saljuqs (originally from Isfahan) rule Jerusalem and parts of Palestine
(officially still under the 'Abbasids).

1099
Roman Crusaders overtake Jerusalem.

1187
Salah al-Diin al-Ayyoubi (from Kurdistan) conquers the crusaders in the
battle of Hittin, kicks them back to Europe and frees Jerusalem.
Plaestine administered from Cairo.


1291
Mamelukes of Egypt take back Jerusalem.

1516-1918
Palestine occupied by the Turkish Ottoman Empire.

1516-1917
Palestine incorporated into the Ottoman state and administered from Istanbul.

1832-1840
Moh'd Ali Pasha (Egypt) rules Palestine, Ottomans take over afterwards.

1876-1877
First Palestinian deputies from Jerusalem attend the first Ottoman
parliament.

1878
First Zionist settlement (Petach Tiqva) established under the guise of
agricultural community.

1882
French Baron E. de Rothschild starts backing Zionists activities in Palestine
financially.

1882-1903
First wave of Zionists (25000 strong) enters Palestine as illegal
immigrants
from Eastern Europe.

1887-1888
Ottomans divide Palestine into three districts: Jerusalem (follows Istanbul), Akka and Nablus (follow the 'wilaya' of Beirut).

1895
The total population of Palestine was 500,000 of whom 47,000 were Jews who owned 0.5% of the land.

1896
Following the appearance of anti-Semitism in Europe, Theodore Herzl, the founder of Zionism tried to find a political solution for the problem in his book, "The Jewish State". He advocated the creation of a Jewish state in Argentina or Palestine.

1897
First Zionist Congress (Basle, Switzerland) declared Palestine the Jewish Homeland. Participants developed a structure of government which could be transferred to Palestine at some future time, including the World Zionist Organization to link all Jews together, the Jewish National Fund to acquire land, a committee to manage finances, a political committee to govern the land.

1904
Fourth Zionist Congress decided to establish a national home for Jews in Argentina.

1901
JNF (Jewish National Fund) set up by the 5th Zionist congress to acquire land
(in Palestine) and 'make it Jewish'.

1904-1914
Second wave (around 40000 strong) of Zionist illegal immigrants arrive in Palestine and increase the Jewish percentage to 6% of the total population.


1906
The Zionist congress decided the Jewish homeland should be Palestine.

1914
With the outbreak of World War I, Britain promised the independence of Arab lands under Ottoman rule, including Palestine, in return for Arab support against Turkey which had entered the war on the side of Germany.

November 2, 1917
British government issues Balfour Declaration. Promising the Jewish people an independent Jewish state in Palestine. At that time the population of Palestine was 700,000 of which 574,000 were Muslims, 74,000 were Christian, and 56,000 were Jews.

December 1917
British troops invade Palestine capturing Jerusalem.

1919
The Palestinians convened their first National Conference and expressed their oppostion to the Balfour Declartion.

1920
The San Remo Conference granted Britain a mandate over Palestine and two years later Palestine was effectively under British administration, and Sir Herbert Samuel, a declared Zionist, was sent as Britain's first High Commissioner to Palestine.

1922
The Council of the League of Nations issued a Mandate for Palestine. The MAndate was in favor of the establishment for the Jewish people a homeland in Palestine.

1936
The Palestinians held a six-month General Strike to protest against the confiscation of land and Jewish immigration.

1939
London Round Table Conference produces the White Paper of the Year which promises Arabs to establish an independent Arab Palestine in Palestine 10 years from the date, and eliminate the Jewish migration to Palestine to 1,400 per year until 1944, after which Jewish migration will cease.

1944-47
Jewish-British War. Jewish groups in Palestine try to expel Britain. Mainstream Jewish fighters under David Ben Gurion are called Hagana. They later become the Israeli army. Two separate military groups (Irgun Zvai Leumi led by Menachem Begin and Lehi or the Stern Gang led by Yitzhak Shamir) resort to assassination and bombings. Many British soldiers and Arab civilians are killed.

1947
Britain decides it cannot bring peace to Palestine and turns the matter over to the United Nations. In Resolution 181 the UN votes to partition Palestine into Jewish and Palestinian states with an international enclave around Jerusalem and Bethlehem. Arab leaders reject the plan and insist on a united Palestine with a secular government. Fighting begins between Jews and Palestinians. Many Palestinians become refugees.

1948
Approximate population of Palestine: 1,650,000 Palestinians and 750,000 Jews.

April-May 1948
Massacres of Palestinians by Zionist groups Haganah and Irgun throughout Palestine.

1948-50
Britain withdraws from Palestine. The state of Israel is established resulting in the 1948 War on May 14th between Israel and the Arab countries. 846,000 Palestinians are driven out of their homeland or flee the fighting that accompanied the creation of a Jewish state. Only 160,000 Palestinians remain in Israel itself.

Article 49 (6) of the Geneva Convention IV states: the occupying power (Israel) shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies, it also rejects and forbids the settlement of Jews in the West Bank area.

The Israeli government allows only a very few Palestinians to return after the war is over. By 1950, over one million Palestinians live in UN-supported refugee camps in Gaza, West Bank, Lebanon, and Jordan.

1964
The establishment of the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO) in Jerusalem.

1965
The Palestine "Revolution" began on January 1st.

1967
Approximate population of Israel and Occupied Territories: 1,660,000 Palestinians and 2,384,000 Jews.

The 1967 War begins June 5th with Israel occupying the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and Jerusalem. UN issues Resolution 242 demanding Israel to withdraw from the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Approximately 250,000 more Palestinian refugees flee, or are forced into Jordan. After the 1967 Six Day War, Yassar Arafat is announced the leader of the PLO.

1973
October or Ramadan or Yom Kippur War. Egypt and Syria attempt to regain lost territories. They push Israel back in the Sinai peninsula and initially in the Golan province. A massive airlift of US arms to Israel tips the balance.

1974
United Nations issues Resolution 338 reaffirming the rights of the Palestinians to self-determination and national independence.

Yasser Arafat speaks to the UN exclaiming, "I come to you with an olive branch and a freedom fighter's gun; do not let the olive branch fall from my hand."

The Arab Nations issue the Rabat Resolution which proclaims the PLO as the legitimate representative of the Palestinian people.

1977
Menechem Begin becomes Prime Minister of Israel. His Likud Party traditionally advocates a "Greater Israel" including the West Bank and Gaza and perhaps Jordan with unlimited settlements of Jews in Arab-populated areas under Israeli occupation. Anwar Sadat President of Egypt goes to Jerusalem to open talks.

1978
Egypt and Israel sign the Camp David Accords. Israel invades Lebanon and seizes a "security zone" up to the Litani River.

1982
Israel invaded Lebanon with the aim of destroying the PLO. Tens of thousands were killed and made homeless in the wake of the invasion which culminated in the massacres of Sabra and Shatilla.

1983
The United Nations called for the convening of a Peace Conference with the participation of the PLO on an equal footing with the other delegates as the legitimate representative of the Palestinian people.

August 1985
Israel creates "Iron Fist Policy." Defense Minister Yitzhak Rabin orders troops to break bones, demolish homes, hold administrative detention, and deport Palestinians.

December 1987
Palestinian Intifada (Uprising) begins. Palestinians commit themselves to goals which include; Palestinians have the same rights as all other people including, the right to determine their own future and to live in security and freedom.

1988
Abu Jihad (PLO's number 2 leader) is assassinated on April 14th by an Israeli hit team. The PLO recognizes Israel, proclaims a Palestinian state, renounces terrorism, and calls for negotiations; as a result of the Israeli election. Yitzhak Shamir returns as Prime Minister. Following the United States government refusing President Arafat a visa to enter the US, the UN General Assembly held a special session on the question of Palestine in Geneva.

June 28, 1989
EEC Madrid Conference issued a new declaration calling for the PLO to be involved in any peace negotiations.

May 20, 1990
Seven Palestinian workers from Gaza were massacred by the Israeli gunman near Tel Aviv. Yasser Arafat addressed the UN Security Council in Geneva after the massacre in which he called for the deployment of a UN emergency force to provide international protection for the Palestinian people to safeguard their lives, properties and holy places. The US vetoed a motion which called for the Security Council to send a fact finding mission to the area. At the end of their hunger strike, Palestinian leaders in the Occupied Territories decided to boycott the US.

June 26, 1990
The EEC in Dublin issued a new declartion on the Middle East which condemned Israeli human rights violations and the settlement of Soviet Jews in the Occupied Territories. It also doubled its economic aid programme to the Occupied Teritories.

1991
October 30: Madrid Peace Conference is held.
December 3: The bi-lateral talks between Israel and the Palestinians, Syrians, Jordanians, and Lebanese started in Washington.

1992
Yitzhak Rabin becomes Prime Minister of Israel.

1993
On September 13th Palestine and Israel sign Declaration of Principles in Washington, DC.

May 4, 1994
Gaza strip and Jericho Agreement in Cario.

August 29, 1994
Transfer of the power Agreement.

September 28, 1995
Palestinian Israeli Interim Agreement signed in Washington.

November 4, 1995
Israeli extremist Yagil Amir assassinates Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin.

January 1996
Palestinians hold first Democratic Election. Yasser Arafat is elected President of Palestine.

May 28, 1996
Israel elects Benjamin Netanyahu Prime Minister, who since has refused to implement previous peace agreement.

September 1996
Israeli government opens tunnel in Jerusalem going against previous peace agreement which states the Jerusalem must not be altered in any way by either side until the final status of the peace agreement has been reached.

January 1997
Agreement of the redeployment from Hebron.

March 1997
The construction of the new Israeli settlement of Jabal Abu Ghneim (Har Homa) started. Cease of the peace talks because of the continous of the settlements policy of the Netanyahu Government.

July 7, 1998
The General Assembly adopts resolution 52/250, entitled “Participation of Palestine in the work of the United Nations,” voting overwhelmingly to upgrade Palestine’s representation at the United Nations to a unique and unprecedented level, somewhere in between the other observers on the one hand and Member States on the other. The resolution conferred upon Palestine additional rights and privileges of participation that had traditionally been exclusive to Member States.

September 1998
In September, the latest Israeli Central Bureau of Statistics census indicates that Israel’s population has reached approximately 5.9 million. Of that number, 4.7 million are Jews, approximately 230,000 of whom live in settlements in the occupied territories, and nearly 1.0 million are Israeli Arabs. It also indicates that the population of settlers in the West Bank and Gaza rose by 3%.

December 1998
U.S. President Bill Clinton visits Gaza and Bethlehem on 14-16 December 1998, becoming the first American president ever to visit any Palestinian territory and to deal directly with Palestinian leaders and institutions on their land. During the visit, the President makes many important statements, coming very close to recognizing the Palestinian right to self-determination. The president is accompanied by his family and by a large official delegation which includes the Secretary of State and the National Security Advisor. President Clinton addresses a meeting in Gaza which is attended by the Chairman Arafat, the speaker of the PNC, the speaker of the Palestinian Council, members of the PNC, the Central Council and the Palestinian Legislative Council, as well as by Palestinian heads of Ministries and other personalities .

October 1998
Wye River Memorandum signed by Israel and Palestine. The Memorandum dictates that Israel must withdraw from an additional 13% of and stop building settlements in the Occupied Territory. Palestine must fight terrorism and change the PLO Charter to acknowledge Israel as a state. Palestine complies…Israel does not.

May 17th, 1999
Ehud Barak defeated Benjamin Netanyahu in the Israeli election.

So, Isreal was yesterday's Kurds?

do i really needa tell you about the palestinian mofti going and having meetings with adolf hitler and operation atlas?
hmm guess so.
Amin el husseini became in 1921 the great mofti of palestine.
in 1939 after escaping from the british for some time now since he had an arrest warrent on him he went to iraq there he aided the pro nazi nationalist rashid ali el chilani to revolt against the british (in that same time a pogrom took place on the jews of bagdad) but the british took control once again and the mofti had to flee again.
in 1941 while being in iran hiding in the japanese embasy(he presented himself as being on the run due to him being a religious leader that is being prosecuted for his believes) he got an invitaton from germany.
on the 6th of november he went to germany.
after going to geramany he got audience with adolf hitler and henrich himler on the 28th of november.
in that meeting they disccused the jewish problem that had to be solved step by step.
in later meetings he asked the germans that when they will manage to capture the palestina and arabic nations they will alllow the arabs to solve the "jewish problem" in palestina and in the rest of the arabic nations in the same manner that germany did in its pivot nations.
in those meetings the mofti was promised that from germany's point of view he is the personality that his opinions are highly rated concerning the arabs and that he is the known leader of the arabs.
the mofti on his part told the germans that he will aid the germans in whatever means he can .
in may 1942 radio berlin started broadcasting to the arabic world propoganda against jews and against britain.
the mofti still in germany did all he could to assist hitler in his destruction of the jews in europe.
he went into meetings with all the europe nations gov branches in order to convince them to put a halt on the jews fleeing from the wrath of germany.
the mofti also came up with a plan to put poison in the tel-aviv water supply system and by that killing all the jews in tel-aviv.
the germans called this operation ATLAS a team was formed that was consisted out of germans and arabs ,the german aboher?(hmm a name something like that, it was the german inteligence org).
started the task of creating the toxin which was packed in small canisters and looked like a white powder(which was oxedised arsen).
before the operation the moftiwas told that if germany will come out the winner of the war they will deal with the jewish problem in the entire world once and for all.
the operation went on its way on the first week of september of 1944 .the operation failed due to alen turing and his team(the ones that managed to break the enigma macine code) and the m.i.6 had a spy in the german's inteligence unit abohor.
the info about the operation was known but not its exact date.
but british police and army in palestina managed to track them and stop them.
the mofti fled from berlin by the time the ww2 ended.
and he went to egypt.
in egypt he went on with his propoganda against the jews and called for islamic jihad in which all the jews in the world will be destroyed.
after 1948 he did all in his power to stop the assimilation of palestinians arabs into arabic nations.his plan was to make all the refugees into army units that will fight Israel on the 2nd round.
but the mofti did not have the same power he had in the 30s as a known leader of the palestinians arabs.
years later still being in egypt the mofti kept on preaching for the final solution and explaining why hitler was right when he wanted to destroy all the jews.
in 1974 he died bitter and frustarted.


April-May 1948
Massacres of Palestinians by Zionist groups Haganah and Irgun throughout Palestine.


oh really?
Encouraged and incited by growing Arab nationalism throughout the Middle East, the Arabs of that small remaining Palestinian territory launched never-ending murderous attacks upon the Jewish Palestinians in an effort to drive them out. Most terrifying were the Hebron slaughters of 1929 and later the 1936-39 "Arab Revolt." The British, at first tried to maintain order but soon (due to the large oil deposits being discovered throughout the Arab Middle East) turned a blind eye. It became obvious to the Palestinian Jews that they must fight the Arabs AND drive out the British.


1948-50
Britain withdraws from Palestine. The state of Israel is established resulting in the 1948 War on May 14th between Israel and the Arab countries. 846,000 Palestinians are driven out of their homeland or flee the fighting that accompanied the creation of a Jewish state. Only 160,000 Palestinians remain in Israel itself.


846,000 Palestinians are driven out of their homeland or flee the fighting that accompanied the creation of a Jewish state

oh really?

i guess it had nothing to do with radio egypt broadcasting to palestine arabs to leave their homes because all the arabic armies are now forming to wage a war and are gonna drive the jews into the sea and the palestinian arabs will later come back to have all this land after all the jews were killed.
the arabs that did not run are today Israeli arabs.
the arabs that escaped right after Israel seemed to have the upper hand in the war fled away because they thought that the jews are gonna do to them the same they wanted to do to the jews(and that is kill them all)


and a link: http://www.masada2000.org/pal-refugees.html



1982
Israel invaded Lebanon with the aim of destroying the PLO. Tens of thousands were killed and made homeless in the wake of the invasion which culminated in the massacres of Sabra and Shatilla.


the massacres of sabra and shatilla took place after the assasination of an xtian arabic lebanese leader and a former massacre of the village of damor in which muslem lebs and palestinian arabs killed and raped the entire xtian village damor.
the xtian falangot militia entered sabra and shatila and started raping,killing all present without Israel knowing about those actions at that time.

<h4>
May 9, 2001:
Syrian Defense Minister Dr. Mustafah Tallas asserted
that killing Jews is a spiritual imperative for Arabs.
"We live in a tradition of martyrdom," Tallas said
in an interview on Lebanese television. "When I see
a Jew before me, I kill him. If every Arab did this,
it would be the end of the Jews."
</h4>

The propoganda machine sparks into life!

I now see how mistaken I, the UN, historians and everybody else has been in looking at the whole situation. It is all the Arabs fault after all! They are clearly to blame. For...uh, what exactly?

They invited the Jews into a new country they set aside for them called Israel and then turned on them. Hold on, no, they didn't do that.

They attacked a long established country. Um, nope - not guilty there.

It was an empty piece of land which they suddenly decided was theirs when Jews began arriving. Checking back, no, that's not right either.

They had an independent state and allowed immigration but then turned on Jews who were defenceless. No, I think the Ottomans and British were involved.

Did they attempt to defend their country against an occupying outsider? Well....

Well I can't deny that some Arabs had contact with the Nazis. It is, as far as history can tell us anything, true. Rather short-sighted I would say, the Nazis would ultimately have turned on them (being Semitic themselves). A pragmatic and desparate effort to safeguard their country's future I'd say after broken British promises, but not excusable because of it.

On the other hand the Jews were busy blowing up British soldiers during WWII rather than enlisting and fighting the Germans. Tell me, do you defend that?

You continue to miss the point of the genuine case Palestinians have regardless of their efforts to resist occupation. Don't attempt to hide the argument under propoganda designed to turn the oppressor into the victim. It is the Israeli tactic though. Try reading history rather than twisting it.

from http://www.adl.org/ISRAEL/Record/conflicts.html

When Jews began arriving in Palestine en masse in the late 19th century, the land had an Arab presence. The number of Arabs in Palestine at the time and questions surrounding when many of the Arabs came to the land remain the subject of dispute among historians. The early Zionist pioneers saw the Arab population as small, apolitical and without a nationalist element and they therefore believed that there would not be friction between the two communities. They also thought that development of the country would benefit both peoples and they would thus secure Arab support and cooperation. Indeed, many Arabs migrated to Palestine in the wake of economic growth stimulated by Jewish immigration. They were attracted to the area by its employment opportunities, higher wages and better living conditions.

Contrary to their expectations, the Jews were met with intense Arab opposition to Jewish settlement in Palestine. In the early years of Jewish immigration, individual and small bands of Arabs engaged in violence against Jews and Jewish settlements. As time went on, Arab attacks against Jews became more organized and more widespread. The British authorities often failed to stave off Arab attacks and refused to come to the assistance of Jews during attacks. Particularly brutal Arab assaults swept Palestine in 1929, of which the Hebron massacre, in which 67 Jews were murdered, is the most infamous. . . .

I was exploring the history there. That which I posted was a chronological history which had been retrieved from several online sources. Overall, the story and history of Israel reminds me of todays Kurds, a people without a land to call home.

I feel that both the Palestinians and the Israelis have legitimate claim to the land. They just can't find it within themselves to share it.

http://www.adl.org/ISRAEL/Record/48war.html
The War for Independence and why the entire arabic armies lost that war.

Is this need to madly counter any comment, no matter how innocuous, that has the temerity to cast some suggestion of Israeli aggression a national chacteristic?

The attempt to bully everyone else will not work. Look at Sharon after Straw mentioned the word 'Palestine.' His crude bullying of the Foreign Secretary for comments that were hardly controversial, is a typical example of the man. There can be absolutely no doubt that peace in the region will require the creation of a Palestinian state - which after all is what the Israelis signed up to in accepting the Oslo process - and a complete end to the Israeli occupation.

And why do you feel the need to justify each Israeli atrocity with an account of some other? Are you saying that Arab atrocities would justify Israeli ones? Depending on which came first?

As for the Sabra and Shatilla massacres - I think you'll find the truth is quite different, and your prime minister may soon be getting the Milosevic treatment once the Hague investigates...if the US allows it.

Is this need to madly counter any comment, no matter how innocuous, that has the temerity to cast some suggestion of Israeli aggression a national chacteristic?

i am simply stating some facts
feel free to defy/counter/deny any byte or nibble out of them.


The attempt to bully everyone else will not work

do you feel intimidated by my posts?


There can be absolutely no doubt that peace in the region will require the creation of a Palestinian state - which after all is what the Israelis signed up to in accepting the Oslo process - and a complete end to the Israeli occupation.

the majority in Israel think that the right solution is a unilaterally seperation from the west bank,gaza wth fences,border ,land mines and all that stuff.and the pals can do whatever they want over there.
the problem is that yaser arafat does not want this due to varius reasons among them is the reason that the majority of the pal's population makes its livelihood in working inIsrael and exporting stuff into Israel.



And why do you feel the need to justify each Israeli atrocity
where did i justify any of the bad deeds Israel did to the pals?
do paste.



As for the Sabra and Shatilla massacres - I think you'll find the truth is quite different, and your prime minister may soon be getting the Milosevic treatment once the Hague investigates...if the US allows it.

the only thing sharon is being accused of is that tose events took place while sabra and shatila and other parts of leb were under Israeli sovereignty.


do you deny that not a single israeli participated in those events?
do u deny that the xtian arabic lebs and druzes had a long score with the pals?
do u deny that at the moment that those events were known to the Israeli army the israeli parlament declared that justice will be done and the ones who committed it are going to face trial (nowadays they are living rather ok in lebanon)

Good link, Radical. Well, this needs a closer look.

Radical, this really is a pointless exercise. But all too often Israeli propogandists (through a lack of anything else to do?) seem to spend night and day twisting the facts and ignoring opposing viewpoints. I take on board what you say, but feel compelled to dispel myths you seek to perpetuate.

So, yawn, check out a few facts rather than propoganda. Sabra and Shatilla from human rights watch:


Background

Details of the massacre: The massacre at the Sabra and Shatilla refugee camps occurred between September 16 and 18, 1982, after Israel Defense Forces (“IDF”) then occupying Beirut and under Ariel Sharon´s overall command as Israeli Defense Minister permitted members of the Phalange militia into the camps. The precise civilian death toll most likely will never be known. Israeli military intelligence estimated that between 700 and 800 people were killed in Sabra and Shatilla during the sixty-two-hour rampage, while Palestinian and other sources have claimed that the dead numbered up to several thousand. The victims included infants, children, women (including pregnant women), and the elderly, some of whom were mutilated or disemboweled before or after they were killed. Journalists who arrived on the scene immediately after the massacre also saw evidence of the summary execution of young men. To cite only one contemporaneous account, that of Thomas Friedman of the New York Times: “[M]ostly I saw groups of young men in their twenties and thirties who had been lined up against walls, tied by their hands and feet, and then mowed down gangland-style with fusillades of machine-gun fire.”

By all accounts, the perpetrators of this indiscriminate slaughter were members of the Phalange (or Kata´eb, in Arabic) militia, a Lebanese force that was armed by and closely allied to Israel since the outbreak of Lebanon´s civil war in 1975. It must be noted, however, that the killings were carried out in an area under IDF control. An IDF forward command post was situated on the roof of a multi-story building located some 200 meters southwest of the Shatilla camp.

Findings of the Kahan Commission:

In February 1983, the three-member Israeli official independent commission of inquiry charged with investigating the events known as the Kahan Commission named former Defense Minister Sharon as one of the individuals who "bears personal responsibility" for the Sabra and Shatilla massacre.

Former Defense Minister Sharon´s decision to allow the Phalange into the camps: The Kahan Commission report detailed the direct role of former Defense Minister Sharon in allowing the Phalangists into the Sabra and Shatilla camps. For instance, then-Chief of Staff Lt.-Gen. Rafael Eitan testified that the entry of the Phalangists into the refugee camps was agreed upon between former Defense Minister Sharon and himself. Thereafter, former Defense Minister Sharon went to Phalangist headquarters and met with, among others, a number of Phalangist commanders. A document issued by former Defense Minister Sharon´s office containing “The Defense Minister´s Summary of 15 September 1982” states: “For the operation in the camps the Phalangists should be sent in.” That document also stated that “the I.D.F. shall command the forces in the area.”

Former Defense Minister Sharon´s disregard of the consequences of that decision: As to former Defense Minister Sharon´s testimony that “no one had imagined the Phalangists would carry out a massacre in the camps,” the Kahan Commission concluded that “it is impossible to justify [Sharon´s] disregard of the danger of a massacre” because “no prophetic powers were required to know that a concrete danger of acts of slaughter existed when the Phalangists were moved into the camps without the I.D.F.´s being with them.” In fact, the Commission found: “In our view, everyone who had anything to do with events in Lebanon should have felt apprehension about a massacre in the camps, if armed Phalangist forces were to be moved into them without the I.D.F. exercising concrete and effective supervision and scrutiny of them…. To this backdrop of the Phalangists´ [enmity] toward the Palestinians [in the camps] were added the profound shock [of Bashir Jemayel´s recent death]….”

The Kahan Commission further found that:

If in fact the Defense Minister, when he decided that the Phalangists would enter the camps without the I.D.F. taking part in the operation, did not think that that decision could bring about the very disaster that in fact occurred, the only possible explanation for this is that he disregarded any apprehensions about what was to be expected because the advantages . . . to be gained from the Phalangists´ entry into the camps distracted him from the proper consideration in this instance.

The Commission explained that “if the decision were taken with the awareness that the risk of harm to the inhabitants existed, the obligation existed to adopt measures which would ensure effective and ongoing supervision by the I.D.F. over the actions of the Phalangists at the site, in such a manner as to prevent the danger or at least reduce it considerably. The Defense Minister issued no order regarding the adoption of such measures.”

The Commission concluded: “In our view, the Minister of Defense made a grave mistake when he ignored the danger of acts of revenge and bloodshed by the Phalangists against the population in the refugee camps.”

As its ultimate recommendation, the Kahan Commission recommended that Sharon be discharged from serving as Minister of Defense, and that, if necessary, the then-Prime Minister should consider removing him from office.

* * *

Human Rights Watch takes the position that what happened at the Sabra and Shatilla refugee camps constitute war crimes and crimes against humanity, and that all those responsible need to be brought to justice. Enough questions are raised by the Kahan Commission report to warrant a criminal investigation by Israel into whether former Defense Minister Sharon and other Israeli military officials—including some who knew the massacre was occurring but took no actions to stop it—bear criminal responsibility. The findings and conclusions of the Kahan Commission, however authoritative in terms of investigation and documentation of the facts surrounding the massacre, cannot substitute for proceedings in a criminal court in Israel or elsewhere that will bring to justice those responsible for the killing of hundreds of innocent civilians. The Lebanese government should institute a similar investigation into the Sabra and Shatilla massacre.

Why do I not respond to you point by point? Well apart from you constantly missing the point (a habit or problem?), I have better things to do. Still, I will provide you with some links and cut & paste material to sink your teeth into. I look forward to a reply.


a series of links that may be interesting, though I doubt you'll read them:

http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0999/9909019.html (http://http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0999/9909019.html)

http://www.web.amnesty.org/ai.nsf/index/MDE150591999 (http://http://www.web.amnesty.org/ai.nsf/index/MDE150591999)

http://www.al-awda.org/factsheet.htm (http://http://www.al-awda.org/factsheet.htm)

12 CONVENTIONAL LIES ABOUT THE PALESTINIAN-ISRAELI CONFLICT -- BY URI AVNERY
(1) "Barak has turned every stone to achieve peace."
Truth is, he has turned every stone to build settlements. Since his first day in office, he has accelerated the pace of setting up new settlements (in the guise of "enlarging" existing ones), confiscating lands, demolishing Palestinian homes and building "by-pass roads" (whose main purpose is to add Palestinian lands to the 'settlement blocs" which he wants to annex to Israel.) In all these activities, Barak has done more than Netanyahu. In the political field, too, Barak has upstaged Netanyahu: Bibi returned at least the greater part of the town Hebron to the Palestinians. Barak has not returned one single inch of occupied territory.

(2) "At Camp David, Barak went further than any previous Prime Minister."
Even if this were true, it would mean very little. If one Marathon runner (Netanyahu) falls down after one mile, and another (Barak) falls down after three, the difference between them is not really important. What is important is that neither of them got even near the finishing line (26 miles). Barak's proposals at Camp David were far from the minimum necessary to make peace with the Palestinian people and the whole Arab world: Palestinian sovereignty over East Jerusalem, and especially the compound of the holy mosques (Haram al-Sharif). Barak indicated at Camp David that he might "consider" some cosmetic changes (and thereby he indeed broke some of the Israeli taboos concerning Jerusalem) " but as a matter of fact he denied the Palestinians, the Arabs and the Muslims sovereignty over the compound of the holy mosques and the major Arab neighborhoods in the city. That's why the summit failed and the escalation started, leading up to the "al-Aksa intifada".

(3) "Arafat blew up the Camp David summit."
On the eve of his departure for the summit, Barak announced five "Red Lines", which he would not cross under any circumstances. Among them: Israeli sovereignty over the entire city of Jerusalem, No return to the 1967 border, Keeping 80% of the settlers were they are, No return of a single refugee to Israel!!! Afterwards he softened some of these stands, but not enough to come anywhere near an agreement.

(4) "All the time, we give, give, give. Arafat doesn"t give anything."
When the Palestinians agreed to a peace settlement based on the pre-1967 border (the Green Line), they were already giving up in advance 78% of the land between the sea and the Jordan river. They are ready to set up their state in the remaining 22%. Our government wants a "compromise" over this area. Meaning: "What's mine is mine, about what's yours, we shall compromise". (Factual background: the November 29, 1947, UN partition resolution gave the Jewish state 55% and the Arab state 45% of Palestine. In the ensuing war [started by the Arabs], we conquered half of the territory allotted to the Arab state. Thus the "Green Line" came about, leaving 78% of the country in our hands.) The problem is not expressed in percentage points only. Barak appears to be asking for only 10% of the occupied territories. In reality, it's closer to 30%, taking into account the territories he wants to annex in the Jerusalem area and place under his 'security control" in the Jordan valley. But even worse, in the map submitted to the Palestinians, these percentage points cut the country up from East to West and from North to South, so that the Palestinian state will consist of a group of islands, each surrounded by Israeli settlers and soldiers.

(5) "How can one make peace with the Palestinians when they break every agreement?"
Well, Palestinian violations pale in comparison with ours. Before the end of the 5-years interim period (May 1998), the IDF had to withdraw from all the West Bank and the Gaza Strip except 'specified military locations", settlements and Jerusalem. Barak refuses to do this even at this late date. Also, four 'safe passages" between the West Bank and Gaza should have been in operation long ago. In practice, only one was opened, and this one can only be used by Palestinians after much harassment.

(6) "Barak is the heir to Rabin."
Far from it. Within a few months he has succeeded in destroying not only all the achievements of Rabin, but those of Begin, too. He has buried the Oslo agreement (to which he objected from the beginning) and destroyed the relations built up with much effort between Israel and a number of Arab countries. He has created ferment among the Arab citizens in Israel itself. In many respects, he has thrown us back to 1948, even 1936.

(7) "The lynching in Ramallah shows that the Arabs are animals."
In a confrontation like this one, each side points to the atrocities committed by the other, "forgetting" the atrocities committed by his own side. Israel points to the horrible lynching, the Palestinians point to the killing of 12- years old Muhammad al-Dira in the arms of his father and the brain-killing bullets used by Israel army snipers against stone-throwing children. Our acts of violence come in response to the actions of the Palestinians, theirs come in response to ours. It's a vicious circle.

(8) "The Palestinian media are instruments of incitement."
That is true, but unfortunately there is no great difference between theirs and ours in this respect. Ours and theirs speak the same language, following guidelines from above. When Palestinian TV shows over and over again the picture of the boy dying in the arms of his father, that's incitement. When our TV shows dozens of times a day, day after day, the atrocious lynching in Ramallah, that's incitement.

(9) "They shoot at us and the Israeli army is exercising self-restraint."
It is strange that in two weeks of 'self-restraint"" about 110 Palestinian and 3 Israeli soldiers have been killed. No Israeli officer has explained (or was asked to explain) this curious ratio. (The explanation is, of course, that the Israeli army has long in advance trained snipers to choose a person from among the demonstrators, take exact aim through a telescopic sight and hit him with a special deadly, high-velocity bullet. Instead of "pacifying" the area, as intended, this method has inflamed it even more. Every funeral has led to another confrontation.)

(10) "The Arabs send their children against our army positions, so that they can be killed, in order to provide pictures for the world media."
This is a horrendous accusation, betraying an obnoxious racism. It contains the belief that Arab parents do not care about their children dying. In the struggle waged by our underground organizations before 1948 and during our War of Independence, boys and girls played an important part. The arms training of Palestinian boys is no different from the training of our own Gadna youth battalions. The boy who, in 1948, destroyed a Syrian tank at kibbutz Deganya has become a national hero. When a people fights for its very existence and freedom, its youth cannot but take part. (I joined the Irgun, defined by the British as a terrorist organization, at the age of 14 and a half. By the age of 15 I carried guns.) It is an illusion to think that Palestinian parents can restrain their children from going out into the street and throwing stones, when they live under a cruel occupation and their brothers and sisters provide examples of heroism and self-sacrifice. It is quite natural for the Palestinian people to be proud of them. Joan of Arc, by the way, was 16 years old when she led the French army into battle. The settlers routinely exploit their children and babies, not hesitating to put them in harm's way.

(11) "Again it is proved that the whole world is against us. They are all anti- Semites."
World public opinion is always on the side of the underdog. In this fight, we are Goliath and they are David. In the eyes of the world, the Palestinians are fighting a war of liberation against a foreign occupation. We are in their territory, not they in ours. We settle on their land, not they on ours. We are the occupiers, they are the victims. This is the objective situation, and no minister of propaganda (like Mr. Nachman Shai) can change that.

(12) "We have no partner for peace."
True, we have no partner for a peace that Palestinians see as a capitulation to Israeli ultimatums. We do have a partner for a peace based on equality and mutual respect. The solution is quite clear: the State of Palestine must be set up within the pre-1967 border, with Jerusalem serving as the capital of the two states - East Jerusalem with the Haram al-Sharif must belong to Palestine, West Jerusalem with the Western Wall and the Jewish quarter must belong to Israel.. When this solution is accepted in principle, negotiations can start about the other problems: mutual security, exchange of territories, a moral and practical solution for the refugee problem, water allocation etc. This peace will come about, because the only alternative is hell for both sides

1948


Myth
Since the establishment of Israel there have been five major wars between Arabs and the Israelis. These wars occured in 1948, 1956, 1967, 1973 and 1982. Israel claims that the Arabs started all the wars. Although there has been low-intensity conflict in the intervening years and major conflagrations during the "War of Attrition" in 1969-1970 and the 1978 invasion of Lebanon, massive civil disobedience during the Uprising of 1988, and in 2000-2001 during the Al-Aqsa Intifada, it is these five wars Israel refers to when it makes its claims, creating the impression that Israel has only acted "in self-defence".

The roots of the 1948 war go as far back as the first recognition on the part of the Palestinians that the Zionists wished to establish a Jewish state on their land. In late 1947 the United Nations proposed that Palestine be divided into a Palestinian Arab state and a Jewish state. The UN Partition Plan recommended that 55 percent of Palestine, and the most fertile region, be given to the Jewish settlers who compromised 30 percent of the population. The remaining 45 percent of Palestine was to comprise a home for the other 70 percent of the population who were Palestinians. The Palestinians rejected the plan because it was unfair.

Israel and its supporters claim that the Arabs first attacked in Janurary 1948 and then invaded Israel in May 1948.



Facts
The truth is that by May 1948 Zionist forces had already invaded and occupied large parts of the land which had been allocated to the Palestinians by the UN Partition Plan. In January 1948 Israel did not yet exist.

The evidence that Israel started the 1948 war comes from Zionist sources. The History of the Palmach which was released in portions in the 1950s (and in full in 1972) details the efforts made to attack the Palestinian Arabs and secure more territory than alloted to the Jewish state by the UN Partition Plan (Kibbutz Menchad Archive, Palmach Archive, Efal, Israel).

Already, Zionist forces were implementing their "Plan Dalet" to

"control the area given to us [the Zionists] by the U.N. in addition to areas occupied by Arabs which were outside these borders and the setting up of forces to counter the possible invasion of Arab armies after May 15" (Qurvot 1948, p. 16, which covers the operations of Haganah and Palmach, see also Ha Sepher Ha Palmach, The Book of Palmach).

1. Operation Nachson, 1 April 1948

2. Operation Harel, 15 April 1948

3. Operation Misparayim, 21 April 1948

4. Operation Chametz, 27 April 1948

5. Operation Jevuss, 27 April 1948

6. Operation Yiftach, 28 April 1948

7. Operation Matateh, 3 May 1948

8. Operation Maccabi, 7 May 1948


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

9. Operation Gideon, 11 May 1948

10. Operation Barak, 12 May 1948

11. Operation Ben Ami, 14 May 1948

12. Operation Pitchfork, 14 May 1948

13. Operation Schfifon, 14 May 1948

The operations 1-8 indicate operations carried out before the entry of the Arab forces inside the areas allotted by the UN to the Arab state. It has to be noted that of thirteen specific full-scale operations under Plan Dalet eight were carried out outside the area "given" by the UN to the Zionists.

Following is a list drawn from the New York Times of the major military operations the Zionists mounted before the British evacuated Palestine and before the Arab forces entered Palestine:

· Qazaza (21 Dec. 1947)

· Sa'sa (16 Feb. 1948)

· Haifa (21 Feb. 1948)

· Salameh (1 March 1948)

· Biyar Adas (6 March 1948)

· Qana (13 March 1948)

· Qastal (4 April 1948)

· Deir Yassin (9 April 1948)

· Lajjun (15 April 1948)

· Saris (17 April 1948)

· Tiberias (20 April 1948)

· Haifa (22 April 1948)

· Jerusalem (25 April 1948)

· Jaffa (26 April 1948)

· Acre (27 April 1948)

· Jerusalem (1 May 1948)

· Safad (7 May 1948)

· Beisan (9 May 1948).

David Ben-Gurion confirms this in an address delivered to American Zionists in Jerusalem on 3 September 1950:

"Until the British left, no Jewish settlement, however remote, was entered or seized by the Arabs, while the Haganah, under severe and frequent attack, captured many Arab positions and liberated Tiberias and Haifa, Jaffa and Safad" (Ben-Gurion, Rebirth and Destiny of Israel (N.Y.: Philosophical Library, 1954, p. 530).

Although late PM Ben-Gurion speaks of "liberating" Jaffa it was alloted to the Palestinians by the UN Partition Plan.

Late PM Menachem Begin adds:

"In the months preceding the Arab invasion, and while the five Arab states were conducting preparations, we continued to make sallies into Arab territory. The conquest of Jaffa stands out as an event of first-rate importance in the struggle for Hebrew independence early in May, on the eve [that is, before the alleged Arab invasion] of the invasion by the five Arab states" (Menachem Begin, The Revolt, Nash, 1972, p. 348)

On 12 December 1948 David Ben Gurion confirmed the fact that the Zionists started the war in 1948:

"As April began, our War of Independence swung decisively from defense to attack. Operation 'Nachson'...was launched with the capture of Arab Hulda near where we stand today and of Deir Muheisin and culminated in the storming of Qastel, the great hill fortress near Jerusalem" (Ben Gurion, Rebirth and Destiny of Israel (N.Y.: Philosophical Library, 1954, p. 106).

Israeli historians have themselves refuted the claim that the Arabs started the 1948 war. Benny Morris uncovered a report from the Israeli Defense Force Intelligence Branch (30 June 1948) that shows a deliberate Israeli policy to attack the Arabs should they resist and expel the Palestinians (Benny Morris, "The Causes and Character of the Arab Exodus from Palestine: the Israel Defense Forces Intelligence Branch Analysis of June 1948", Middle Eastern Studies, XXII, January 1986, pp. 5-19).



Conclusion
In sum, it is not true that the Arabs "invaded Israel" in 1948.

First, Israel did not exist at the time of the alleged invasion as an established state with recognised bounderies. When the Zionist leaders established Israel on 15 May 1948 they purposely declined to declare the bounderies of the new state in order to allow for future expansion.

Secondly, the only territory to which the new state of Israel had even a remote claim was that alloted to the Jewish state by the UN Partition Plan. But the Zionists had already attacked areas that were alloted to the Palestinian Arab state.

Thirdly, those areas which the Arab states purportedly "invaded" were, in fact, exclusively areas alloted to the Palestinian Arab state proposed by the UN Partition Plan. The so-called Arab invasion was a defensive attempt to hold on to the areas alloted by the Partition Plan for the Palestinian state.

Finally, the commander of Jordan's Arab Legion, was under orders not to enter the areas alloted to the Jewish state (Sir John Bagot Glubb, "The Battle for Jerusalem", Middle East International, May 1973).

638
Omar ibn al-Khattaab enters Jerusalem and ends the Byzantine rule.


this was the first time an arab layed foot in israel, hundreds of years after the jews estableshed a kingdom here.



1919
The Palestinians convened their first National Conference and expressed their oppostion to the Balfour Declartion.


this was the first time in history the arabs in palestine declared themselves as a nation. fact is, if it weren't for zionizm, there never would have been a palestinian nation. they realized that they have common interests when these were jeopardized by the development of the Jewish settlment.



April-May 1948
Massacres of Palestinians by Zionist groups Haganah and Irgun throughout Palestine.

or combats in which the arabs lost their asses.


In Resolution 181 the UN votes to partition Palestine into Jewish and Palestinian states with an international enclave around Jerusalem and Bethlehem. Arab leaders reject the plan and insist on a united Palestine with a secular government. Fighting begins between Jews and Palestinians. Many Palestinians become refugees.

...the Jews responded to it by dancing in the streets. the arabs (by then they weren't called "palestinians" yet) can only blame themselves for not having a state already then.


1973
October or Ramadan or Yom Kippur War. Egypt and Syria attempt to regain lost territories. They push Israel back in the Sinai peninsula and initially in the Golan province. A massive airlift of US arms to Israel tips the balance.

that, and 2 other things: 1, the syrians using Soviet tactics that fail in face of constant counter-attack of the IDF. 2, egypt, never really wanting to take over sinai again, stopped it's progress after 10 km, letting us transfer forces to the syrian front.



August 1985
Israel creates "Iron Fist Policy." Defense Minister Yitzhak Rabin orders troops to break bones, demolish homes, hold administrative detention, and deport Palestinians.

not true. the "iron fist" was ordered 2 years later, when the Intifada started, and palestinians started violent demonstrations, in which they throu stons (sometimes as big as building bricks off roofs) and molotov coctails at israeli soldiers.

to the "point", occupation shouldn't exists, and can only result in an uprise (see the "jewish-british war"). nevertheless, the current "uprise" in the territories is a well planned attack, skillfuly concertrated by Arafat, that involves trained soldiers of his own security forces, as well as members of Hammas and Islamic Jihad, groups that see the entire state of Israel as one giant setllment on their land, and will not rest until it is removed. most common palestinians do not participate in it. it has a clear objective: to achieve in the battle field what he couldn't achieve near the negotiating table, i.e. sole soverieghnity on the teple mount (which they deny it ever hosted the temple) and a right of return to every refugee, his son and grandson, which will result in the destruction of israel.

conclusion: yes, they do have a right for self determination, and no, arafat is not the one that will get it for them.

Did they attempt to defend their country against an occupying outsider? Well....
well.... no! the palestinians never ever had a country of their own. and if it weren't for israel, they never would have either. their arab "brothers" would never have given a bunch of villagers a country of their own, and if zionizm didn't exists, my guess is that this country whould have beed devided between syria, jordan and egypt.

Yow! This conflict has no end. I just don't know what to think now.

I say we partitian Afghanistan and send the palestinians over there. And while we are at it, let's make space for the Kurds in Iraq. <img src = "http://www.sciforums.com/t4091/sc67f05ded9e7685b6abd853c721a13d9/images/icons/icon10.gif">

Well finally, we get to address the main points of the dispute itself rather than petty bickering over the struggle (I think the rights and wrongs of 'atrocities', 'terrorism' and all that follows is dependant upon a view regarding the ultimate rights and wrongs).

Interesting take on it, though I would, as you no doubt expect, take issue with much of what you say.


this was the first time an arab layed foot in israel, hundreds of years after the jews estableshed a kingdom here.

There is some truth to this. But of course Palestine was a melting-pot of ethnic and religious groups. The Arabs did not so much displace the existing population as belnd in. Just as not all Jews left, they were not replaced by Arabs. Palestinains are still a Semitic people.


this was the first time in history the arabs in palestine declared themselves as a nation. fact is, if it weren't for zionizm, there never would have been a palestinian nation.

Well, the issue was one that developed from a Western notion of the nation state. If we are to judge all self-governing entities against a 19th Century notion of the nation-state, then yes, Palestine never was a state. It was always a distinct province ruled by a succession of semi-autonomous rulers within the framework of a larger empire. The same could be said for Scotalnd and Wales. And as you point out, the national convention predates any declaration of an Israeli state by some 25 years - even under Western conceptions of the nation state.


the arabs (by then they weren't called "palestinians" yet) can only blame themselves for not having a state already then.

Well I think that's a bit disingenuous. They were also held back by the British and shafted by Lawrence.

I could go on, but to cut it short will ask a couple of questions.

What legitimate claim does Israel have to the West Bank and Gaza?

Why does Israel continue to tear up and ignore agreements it has signed (settlement building etc.)?

What do you expect the Palestinians to do in their situation?

I do agree that Arafat is not the man to deliver though. Equally, I am at a loss to see who on the Palestinian side could. I have much sympathy for them - I feel thay have a legitimate claim to a genuinely sovereign and contiguous state, but have been screwed by just about everybody - the West, Israel, Arab states, their leadership. In my mind though, that does not weaken the need for a just settlement to a just cause.

The Arabs did not so much displace the existing population as belnd in
in fact,


1187
Salah al-Diin al-Ayyoubi (from Kurdistan) conquers the crusaders in the
battle of Hittin, kicks them back to Europe and frees Jerusalem.
Plaestine administered from Cairo.

by then there wheren't many jews to expell, because most of them where spread all over the middle east and the roman empire, following the crack down on the maccabian revolt.

Palestinains are still a Semitic people
this has no relevance. the cultural differences between Jews and Arabs are more or less as those between America and the Taliban. we are complete opposite in values, and this is one of the reasons to the conflict.


And as you point out, the national convention predates any declaration of an Israeli state by some 25 years

first of all,


1897
First Zionist Congress (Basle, Switzerland) declared Palestine the Jewish Homeland.

and this was only the zionist decleration. needless to say, jews existed as a nation (with or without a state) since ~2500BC.
but this is not what i meant. regardless of any palestinian state, they did not exist as a nation, as an ethnic group, that shared common interests and aspirations, prior to that declaration (i think Hanan Ashrawi won't like this :) ). jews are praying to the rebuilt of the temple every morning (or at least the religios of them do ) in the last 2000 years.


They were also held back by the British
...not to kill all jews. they expressed their disagreement with resolution 181 by atacking every jewish setlment.


and shafted by Lawrence.


:confused:


What legitimate claim does Israel have to the West Bank and Gaza?
[quote]
the same one it has on every other piece of the land between the (mediterenian) sea and the (jordan) river, the same one the palestinians have on the very same land. the west bank and gaza don't belong to them by some ancient heritage. they just happen to be caught there after the '67 war. my town, Petah Tikva (see the almanach) is built on the ruins of an arab vilage called Um-Melabes. Hebron, now a palestinian town in the west bank, is one of the most sacred places to jews. so what we are trying to achieve here is a division of the country both nations want between the two. the territories, due to historical events, are mostly populated with palestinians, while israel is mostly populated with jews, which makes the natural border between the two people the Green Line (former border between israel and jordan, and egypt, until '67).

[quote]
Why does Israel continue to tear up and ignore agreements it has signed (settlement building etc.)?

mostly due to internat politics. i guess the same reason arafat ignores agreements he signed (as well as saving his life). another reason is that the PMs that followed Rabin, who signed the agreements, didn't agree with the Oslo process.

[quote]
What do you expect the Palestinians to do in their situation?
[quote]
the thing is, most of them don't do anything. all of the "action" (shooting at civilians etc.) is done by members of Hammas, Jihad and official palestinian security forces. if you will go to Ramalla on saturday night, you will see the bars and clubs they hang out at. as i said, the first intifada ('87-'91) was the revolt phase, then came years of negitiations, and when arafat saw he won't get what he wants, he ordered to start a planned wave of violence. so what happens now is not something the palestinians do, but something arafat, personally, does.

if it was up to me, all these setlments would never have been built. in fact, right after the war some politicians suggested to return the Bank to jordan right away. but mistakes have been made...

at the current situation IMO it will be a strategic mistake on our part to unilaterly withraw from the territories, because doing so after leaving leabnon under the constant hizbulla attacks will send a message that pushing us out (to the sea?) takes only enough time of constant small attacks.