This is something that i've been wondering for a while and wondered what other people think. This includes the Halo games, and the official books, the star trek seris and the movies.

Cov would destory everything in a matter of days. The fact that they have sheilds that work well agaisnt energy and projectiles unelss its a MAC gun

Well, what can people in Halo do? UFP photons are about 500 megatons for a Type VI Photon Torp.

planet cracker for one.

Oh and the halos themself hehe

planet cracker for one.

Hardly specific, what is a planet cracker? How often is it used? What is it used by? What's its range? Rate of fire?

Covenant Assault Carrier 5346 meters
Reverence-class Cruiser 3000 meters
CCS-class Battlecruiser 1782.2 meters
Covenant Destroyer 1500 meters
Covenant Carrier 1455 meters
Covenant Frigate 1000 meters
Covenant Stealth Corvette Less than 485 meters
Seraph-class Starfighter 24.8 meters

meh all planet crackers are is bombs deployed by humans only a few times that was just before he halo 2 story started only a few weeks infact

Frank O'Connor of the Halo Message Boards claims there may be something more to the Covenant's weaponry. He has been quoted saying: "The actual technology is not plasma as we know it, but something far more dangerous, arcane, and destructive."

meh all planet crackers are is bombs deployed by humans only a few times that was just before he halo 2 story started only a few weeks infact

Where these weapons actually used in ship to ship fights?

Yep blew up a fleet of 7000 Cov ships and a larg space station

but that was the last time they said anything about it most of the weapons were destoryed on Reech

but that was the last time they said anything about it most of the weapons were destoryed on Reech

Not very reliable is it? And are these ships shielded?

Oyeah! the only thing that can get past Cov ship sheilds is a MAC gun its fires a 3000 ton ferric-tungsten round to 40% the speed of light. And can reload in 5 sec

Hey srry its not planet cracker its planet killers ^^; very srry about that been a long time since i read the books.

Cov Weapons such as the Plasma Canon have a range of 100,000 and are highly accurate, Bungie has just stated that Cov plasma has a arcane quality making it even more deadly, the arcane plasma itself has the ablity to melt energy sheilds and armor.

this is just going with the ships. On the ground the humans alone would win, the helljumpers and even the marines are formidible foes, through the Spartans into the mix and you've got a good battle on your hands.

halo would win just like star wars would win in man power and in fire power

If it was strictly humans vs humans then Star Trek would have an advantage tech wise, but Halo has numbers and sheer will. Not to mention the Spartans. Star Trek may have better ships but Halo would just swamp them in numbersand MAC shells. Spartans would board the Enterprise and take it over using it against the federation.

well im talking about the cov just like fettman

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m185/MOOP101/200411300626490.gif
this reminds me of a persons granny

Go fuck kirk you fat smelly bastard
p.s. idiot
p.s.s. go to hell
p.s.s.s. applesauce sucks.

The borg do not out number the cov thats fro sure.

OOPS i guess saphirekosmos forgot to change her tampons.

this also reminds me of somone and ......yeeaaah. :spank: . :spank: . :spank:

Go fuck kirk you fat smelly bastard
p.s. idiot
p.s.s. go to hell
p.s.s.s. applesauce sucks.
sounds like saphirekosmos needs to change her tamp.

halo would win just like star wars would win in man power and in fire power

Hah. Very funny. Sucks though, that Star Trek would obviously win anyway.

How so? with their phasers? Halo humans may not have as advanced technology, but at least they got to where they are without the help of aliens.

Halo/Humans would have a hard time but the cov would win easy magic plasma based weapons lasers and they easily out number the Borg massive fleets ships 5000m long with great maneuverability and 100,000kil range only reason they didnt win the war yet was because they didnt know were earth was unil halo 2

Halo 3 looks so bad ass and it comes out sep.25th. and i think the obitor joins the humans

The Arbiter along with with other Seps have joined the UNSC, but it has been stated that even with the combined forces of the Cov Seps and the UNSC they are still outnumbered and out gunned by the loyal cov, and we cant forget about the Flood. But it seems there is something that can protect earth from the Halos, I have no idea what its called but it's just a rumor. But I know my man Master Cheif will pull it off, he will have the covent doing this before long:truce: :cool:

Saphire Is Gay

You see Blade, A Mark 5 Super Mac Cannon can littarally shatter the largest ship in the Covenent arsenal ( Not including city-worlds like High Charity) . And when the covenent conquer a planet, they do whats called glassing it. That is, to qoute the book, " They fire untill the oceans burn, the surface is but glass. Within a few hours, the entire world is rendered uninhabitable, the surface nothing but a molten hell. Within two days, the atmosphere evaporates". And the Covenent have a room in High Charity with a massive glass dome composed of litarally trillions of shards of glass, each one taken from a planet the Covenent have burned. Each one the only remains of a planet that once had billions of people on it. And the Covenent are estimated to control almost the entire Milky Way galaxy ( We're in the iddle of one of its arms. The Humans had expanded to fill out that arm, while the Covenent control the rest of the Galaxy ).

And the bomb he was talking about is called the Nova. Its so strong, it destroyed the 7000+ ships, shattered a nearby moon, scorched part of the surface of a nearby planet, and created a huge EMP that could be detected from the Covenent Capital, which was a considrable number of lightyears away. And there have been at least two deployed. One at Reach, and the one I mentioned. There also so strong that they can litterally shatter a planet. Imagine having one of those go off in the middle of your fleet. And one of the only things that was stopping the Covenent from winning were the lack of non-destroyed Halos, the secrecy of Earth, and the massive defenses of Earth ( Over three hundred Mark 5 Super Mac Cannons. Only 20 were used to defend Reach, which managed to take out a huge number of ships, since each salvo consisted of 20 rounds, and netted the Humans about 15 Capital Ship kills, though the Covenent outnumbered the 500+ UNSC ships there at about a 3-1 ratio. And a single Covenent Frigate, the weakest class, can take on about 3 Human Destroyers and come out on top. To qoute Captain Keyes, " He had seen Covenent Frigates make Swiss cheese out of Destroyers".

How so? with their phasers? Halo humans may not have as advanced technology, but at least they got to where they are without the help of aliens.

With or without help, Trek has the more advanced weaponry, even excluding the games/books. This argument does nothing to advance the discussion

You see Blade, A Mark 5 Super Mac Cannon can littarally shatter the largest ship in the Covenent arsenal ( Not including city-worlds like High Charity) .

Very creative! A Mass Driver!

And easily defeatable/defensible thru cargo transporter.


And when the covenent conquer a planet, they do whats called glassing it. That is, to qoute the book, " They fire untill the oceans burn, the surface is but glass. Within a few hours, the entire world is rendered uninhabitable, the surface nothing but a molten hell. Within two days, the atmosphere evaporates".

Ah...planetary destruction. Achievable by Kirk's rickety Enterprise, far less for the current flagship Enterprise-E. Not in the same manner, but uninhabitable is uninhabitable.



And the bomb he was talking about is called the Nova. Its so strong, it destroyed the 7000+ ships, shattered a nearby moon, scorched part of the surface of a nearby planet, and created a huge EMP that could be detected from the Covenent Capital, which was a considrable number of lightyears away.

Now that's a bomb! :) great effect!

In the Halo universe.

Of course, it helps Trek ships that the bomb is extremely slow to deploy (requiring a manual setting, with none being set to purposely detonate at anything measuring less than hours) and very visible to sensors (it is a nuclear device with a chemical accelerant booster). A single Trek ship could beam a NOVA bomb molecules apart pre-detonation.

The borg do not out number the cov thats fro sure.

The Borg number in an unknown number of trillions. Canon STVOY has it that a single Borg base encountered (in that episode) was populated by "trillions of drones" (quoted from Commander Tuvok's dialog).

Um, I don't think a Transporter can beam aboard something that ia moving at 7,440 miles a second and is the size of a house. And the Nova doesn't have a chemical booster. It does the following sequence: "This is the prototype Nova Bomb, nine fusion warheads encased in lithium triteride armor. When detonated, it compresses its fusionable material to neutron-star density, boosting the thermonuclear yield a hundredfold. I am Vice Admiral Danforth Whitcomb, temporarily in command of of the UNSC military base Reach. To the Covenant uglies that might be listening, you have a few seconds to pray to your damned heathen gods. You all have a nice day in hell... ".

And the bomb has never been launched as a missle. And they can indeed be launched as a ships weapon. The UNSC have stealth ships called Prowlers, the largest one being a cruiser sized HQ. These things could carry the weapon into the sector, open an airlock to let the decompression launch it towards the fleet, and then jump back out of the system.

Also, the resultant winds of the explosion caused tidal waves and flattend cities. Now, even if were were to put Nova Bombs on missle warheads, you would still have very few options avaible to you. You could transport the warhead out of the missle, but that would be likely to set it off. You could shoot it with PD, but again, you would likely set it off. Alas, to finally win, ST would have to lay seige to Earth. Ironic, no?

Also, Admiral Danforth Whitcomb is from Texas. So yeah, the guy who was talking in what I consider the best qoute ever is a hillbilly. And I can't imagine what would happen were ST to encounter the Flood. Or worse, were they to set off the Halos....

The flood are countless they were able to Destroy* the most powerful race the Forerunners, and the Cov are no joke their ships are some of the most powerful I have ever seen in any Sci-fi story, and I do believe that the Cov have many more units than the Borg because they are many races joined together and many of the races reproduce at a very high rate gruts, jackes, drones, Oh and earth has Sgt. Johnson he cant die its in the games so its canon :P

Um, I don't think a Transporter can beam aboard something that ia moving at 7,440 miles a second and is the size of a house.

The size is absolutely nothing. The size of a house is extremely small compared to a 1.5 million metric ton, 704m long starship. A house might be what? 1/100th the length and an even smaller fraction in height? Easily transportable. This is why I said cargo transporter.

Also, Enterprise and Voyager have completed transports at Warp speeds, which as you know is faster than light. 7440mi/s is like standing still.



And the Nova doesn't have a chemical booster. It does the following sequence: "This is the prototype Nova Bomb, nine fusion warheads encased in lithium triteride armor. When detonated, it compresses its fusionable material to neutron-star density, boosting the thermonuclear yield a hundredfold. I am Vice Admiral Danforth Whitcomb, temporarily in command of of the UNSC military base Reach. To the Covenant uglies that might be listening, you have a few seconds to pray to your damned heathen gods. You all have a nice day in hell... ".

Well, what I saw online were these:

"UNSC NOVA Bomb(a group of nukes clustered around a core that forces the explosions together)"

And Admiral Whitcomb's attempt:

"Several experimental nuclear bombs (codenamed Novas, and featuring a lithium triteride casing that would boost the yield a hundredfold)"

This casing seemed to me that if it causes the nuclear explosion to multiply, acts as some sort of accelerant...I shouldn't have said "chemical" I should have perhaps said "incindiary accelerant" or "radioactive accelerant". But in any event...



And the bomb has never been launched as a missle. And they can indeed be launched as a ships weapon. The UNSC have stealth ships called Prowlers, the largest one being a cruiser sized HQ. These things could carry the weapon into the sector, open an airlock to let the decompression launch it towards the fleet, and then jump back out of the system.

...the bomb is a nuclear device, easily detectible by Trek sensors. Federation starships can detect cloaked vessels with tachyon scans...does the UNSC use cloaks?

As well, the bomb 'floats' to its target. Extremely slow compared to a light speed transporter beam. And as I said before, Starfleet would scatter the molecules of the materials and disperse the nuclear reactants, as both Enterprise D and Voyager have done on a couple episodes...such a feat would not require the device to be reconstructed on board the ship.


Also, the resultant winds of the explosion caused tidal waves and flattend cities. Now, even if were were to put Nova Bombs on missle warheads, you would still have very few options avaible to you. You could transport the warhead out of the missle, but that would be likely to set it off. You could shoot it with PD, but again, you would likely set it off. Alas, to finally win, ST would have to lay seige to Earth. Ironic, no?

Nuclear armaments are ancient compared to Starfleet weapons. There has only been one or two episodes where thermonuclear devices have been attempted against a Fleet ship, ineffectually at that. While we both cannot assume to know all the triggering capabilities of a NOVA bomb, I suspect that since the Halo universe has little to no experience with transporter beams, they would not be capable of building a "transporter trigger" into the device. That said, weapon discharge targeted at any bomb is ill advised in any century ;)

Yes, to win ST would have to lay seige to Halo Earth. However, in times of war, or where the Federation itself is threatened, the Prime Directive goes straight out the airlock, and Starfleet would indeed decimate the military capability of the Halo Earth. They would, as much as possible, minimize casualties, but they'd melt, 'depower', depolarize, transport, demolecularize, seize or otherwise disable weapons capability all over the planet.


And I can't imagine what would happen were ST to encounter the Flood.

They have encountered similar folk. Species 8472 and the Flood operate in some similar manners. Voyager's EMH developed a nanite virus that is quite successful at attacking such creatures. This virus, deployed in one high yield torpedo was capable of destroying 23 bioships and all Species 8472 hands.

Also, in STTNG, Dr Crusher successfully eliminated a DNA infection and restored Geordi after an alien race infected him with a virus that transformed him to one of them.

Federation doctors are quite skilled at genetic engineering. :cool:


Or worse, were they to set off the Halos....

What would that do? Destroy the Halo Milky Way galaxy, leaving the one in the Trek universe intact? Lovely strategy. The loss of the Starfleet battle armada would be expensive, but clearly, since it's two different Earths, it's two different universes, and there would be no Halo devices in Trek. Thus setting off the Halos would merely seal the Halo universe's own demise.

You may counter that Halo folks would survive in Shield Worlds...but they'd have to get there, and I don't think there'd be time to mount an evacuation when there's a war going on right...


Also, Admiral Danforth Whitcomb is from Texas. So yeah, the guy who was talking in what I consider the best qoute ever is a hillbilly.

(I did the response this order on purpose...)

If you want let Captain Edward Jellico, also a Texan, lead the fleet (not Picard). Jellico, commanding the Enterprise D in a ship fleet totalling one, laid seige to a Cardassian fleet by having Riker execute his plan to distribute 500 antimatter mines close to every Cardassian ship. He could have destroyed the entire fleet with one button press of course, but he merely showed his strength by damaging the Cardassian lead, then made them all eject their weapons core and return Picard (who they kidnapped).

Or perhaps...we can let Admiral Kathryn Janeway lead. One of her best quotes is applicable here:

"Unless you have something a little bigger in your torpedo tubes, I'm not turning around."

The flood are countless they were able to Destroy* the most powerful race the Forerunners, and the Cov are no joke their ships are some of the most powerful I have ever seen in any Sci-fi story, and I do believe that the Cov have many more units than the Borg because they are many races joined together and many of the races reproduce at a very high rate gruts, jackes, drones, Oh and earth has Sgt. Johnson he cant die its in the games so its canon :P

Fett...the Borg assimilate races by the millions and billions. They are many races joined together. Same deal. They number in the trillions. Canon fact.

As for Sgt. Johnson, he might be "indestructable", but he can probably be held in a transporter buffer indefinitely :) He'd still be alive, but quite immobile and ineffectual.

LMFAO!!!!!!

Nice qoute!!

Yes, I thought so...Chakotay barely hid his laugh, much to the annoyance of the Krenim that was threatening Voyager. Honestly, I think it's the actor (Robert Beltran) that reacted, rather than his character being assigned that reaction in the script. To see it executed was just tremendous.

PS I altered my last response to you slightly

It proves size does matter.

And Halo has been exposed to teleportation. The Forerunners used teleporters for transit, and the Covenent salvage Forerunner tech, making it slightly better in the process ( The needlers on Forerunner Enforcers and the Covenent needlers.) . Though the Covenent rarely innovate, instead prefering to imitate. Being masters of reverse engineering, it would not surprise me if they copied the specs for transporters, phasers, and photon torpedos. And I highly doubt that any ship in the Federation arsenal can hold more then 20 MAC rounds in its cargo hold. The reason to me that the Covenent prefer material transportation is because you can move more personnel and logistics then you could with a teleporter. And we've seen how massive they can build and how powerful they are ( They ripped a moon in half and turned it into a giant city-ship.) . And I think that the Federation would likely help Earth, given that they were peacefully colonizing worlds untill the Covenent glassed an outermost human colony. The Covenent were the first to attack, which means they instigated the war. And even though their from different universes, Earth is still the birthplace of humans and the Capital of the Federation. The UNSC is similar to the way the Federation was before intergation of other races.

And the Covenent are fighting a religous war, just like what the Arabs are doing in Iraq. Except this time the Arabs are winning. The Covenent have superior numbers, and will not stop a war until the enemy is either compleatly annihalated or integrated into the Covenent.

And in Halo 3, the Covenent have apparently conquered Earth ( Theres a grunt crossing sign in the trailer.) . And if Gravemind were to be let loose on a Federation ship.......

Brutes and Hunters cant be assmilated by the flood so I dont think the borg could do any better.
Oh and drones or buggers what ever you want to call them.

Your worlds shall burn until their surface is but glass!

Guilty Spark there is the final answer he teleports into your ships and dosnt shut up about how you must stop the flood by activating the halos and drives your crew nuts until you teleport him off your ship, then he just teleports himself back oh and he wont die I have tried everything to kill him it dosnt work:mad:

It proves size does matter.

??

Enterprise has transported entire moving shuttlecraft into it's docking bays already. So has Voyager. I imagine those shuttlecraft would mass at least the same as the lower scale mass driver ammo (600T-1000T), shuttlecraft lengths are listed between 6 to 25 meters dependant on the class (shuttlepod up to runabout). Voyager has beamed a small vessel bigger than their Federation shuttlecraft already. Starfleet ships are thus logically capable of successfully using the transporter on moving inert matter.


And Halo has been exposed to teleportation. The Forerunners used teleporters for transit, and the Covenent salvage Forerunner tech, making it slightly better in the process ( The needlers on Forerunner Enforcers and the Covenent needlers.) . Though the Covenent rarely innovate, instead prefering to imitate.

This means nothing, this does not prove that a NOVA bomb is immune or is triggered by a transporter.


Being masters of reverse engineering, it would not surprise me if they copied the specs for transporters, phasers, and photon torpedos.

They have to board a ship first. Kill the crew before they either resist or initiate self destruct and without damaging the ship then successfully get past the encryption protocols without the computer wiping the database clean. AND survive on that ship when a score of surrounding Starfleet controlled vessels would be authorized to vaporize the compromised ship just because Halo invaders siezed it. You make it sound much easier than it would be.

It also would not surprise me if Fleet engineers like Geordi or Belanna figures out the Mass Driver specs after one scan. :)


And I highly doubt that any ship in the Federation arsenal can hold more then 20 MAC rounds in its cargo hold.

Like i said haloguy...they do not have to. The transporters only need to scatter the molecules. Or they could just leave a line of photon torps in the way and blast the MAC matter to bits.


The reason to me that the Covenent prefer material transportation is because you can move more personnel and logistics then you could with a teleporter.

Speculation. I suggest to you that Covenant teleporters are not advanced enough that biological beings can survive it.


And we've seen how massive they can build and how powerful they are ( They ripped a moon in half and turned it into a giant city-ship.).

The true power of the transporter is not how much matter it can transport, but what comes out at the end of the process. The first part of transporters is essentially demolecularization. Many energy weapons can do that.


And I think that the Federation would likely help Earth, given that they were peacefully colonizing worlds untill the Covenent glassed an outermost human colony.

They'd like to, but trust me, if the Federation were under attack, their first priority would be to eliminate the Covenant's military machine.


The Covenent were the first to attack, which means they instigated the war. And even though their from different universes, Earth is still the birthplace of humans and the Capital of the Federation. The UNSC is similar to the way the Federation was before intergation of other races.

As seen in the Mirror Universe Trek 'sodes, 'our' Starfleeters would indeed go against the Mirror Universe's Earth representatives if in danger. This is enough premise to assume that if Trek's Earth is threatened, they will neutralize (as humanely as possible) this threat.


And the Covenent are fighting a religous war, just like what the Arabs are doing in Iraq. Except this time the Arabs are winning. The Covenent have superior numbers, and will not stop a war until the enemy is either compleatly annihalated or integrated into the Covenent.

How unfortunate for them.


And in Halo 3, the Covenent have apparently conquered Earth ( Theres a grunt crossing sign in the trailer.) . And if Gravemind were to be let loose on a Federation ship.......

Like I said, Dr Crusher would whip out her miracle hypospray make genetic mulch of the threat.

Or, Seven of Nine and Voyager's EMH would whip up a super batch of Seven's nanoprobes to neutralize the Flood DNA...ridding 'Gravemind' of its power.

Please bear in mind that genetic engineering is required for a Fleet doctor.

Or, they'd just beam it into space. Gravemind can only use its own teleporter a limited distance in and around the Halo 05 ring. Fleet ships can stand at a distance and use transporters.

Cov weapons are MAGIC stated by Bungie
Flood will not be stoped by nanoprobes the most advanced race of all time did* everything to stop them and it wasnt enough

Fettmans right. They tried everything: spaceing them, molecular deconstruction, bioweapons, directed energy weapons, glassing infected worlds, isolateing or executing infected people, deep freezing them in cold chambers. They are like the Cockroach of of biological sentients. They have no feeling of pain. Their intelligence and ferocity grows with every new victim ( as evidenced by Gravemind). They attack by the miilions, drawn to sentient beings and the ships. A single infection form can infect an entire planet. And they also have waht is essentially super-steroids produced in their bodys ( If any other creature had it, they would shatter their bones from being unaccustomed to their strength) . They heal their wounds in seconds, and have no sense of slef-preservation. The only thing that drives them is their insatiable hunger. They can stay alive indefinately, the flood forms on the first Halo having been there for millions of years. And once their in you, they mind rape you for information, whilst controlling your body, with you seeing what they see, but having absolutely no control over what was once your body. very soon after you are infected, the brain dies, killing off all traces of the former person, instead replaced by a monster that will kill and kill and kill untill it is either dead or all sentient life has been subjugated.

Even the Halos, the Forerunners last line of defense, which was designed to wipe the galaxy clean of the Floods food, did absolutely nothing to them. All it did was kill every sentient thing in the entire galaxy.

And were the Flood and the Borg to meet, then you would have either a stalemate, or a super race of hybrids intent on either killing of or assimilating all intelligent species. As soon as a carrier form gets on the enterprise, then all is lost for ST. With combined knowledge of Picard and the crew, they will go on an intergalactic rampage, consuming armadas, worlds, even entire star sectors. And you would not be able to beam over to an infected ship for one reason: the Flood produce airborn and water born toxins, and have no need for air. And as soon as you beam over, you will be swarmed by hundreds of Infection forms, each one wanting to steal your body.

And were the Halo's effect to go through ST wormhole to the Halo universe.......

Flood are like super Zombies on drugs the Cov city fell in a matter of hours to them

Dead Flood can only be permanently disabled by being completely destroyed.

If it was strictly humans vs humans then Star Trek would have an advantage tech wise, but Halo has numbers and sheer will. Not to mention the Spartans. Star Trek may have better ships but Halo would just swamp them in numbersand MAC shells. Spartans would board the Enterprise and take it over using it against the federation.

HALO has the numbers ?, there are only a few colonies left. the UFP has 150 member planets.
Star Trek vs UNSC ships would mean like covenant and humans , ST would win.
If its universe on universe, the Borg will emerge victorious over the covenant.
The UFP would not fight other humans, but ally with them against the covenant.
Man, i'd love to see a spartan with a cloak.

Borg vs Flood... Borg would win, numbers and cybernetic implants plus nanoprobes.
UFP vs flood, UFP would have a really tough battle, but it has defeated parasites before.

Wow rabid trekkies who think Trek could be Warhammer 40k and that shocked me but now you can beat the Cov or the flood you guys really no nothing about Sicfi other than Trek lmao! this is going to be fun.

How many times do I have to say it Flood cant be stopped by the Borg if the forerunners couldn't do it then how could the Tech impaired Borg do it when Magic weapons couldnt?

If there were more of the forerunners, then they would have had a chance, and where does it say in the books or game that they've tried nanoprobes ?, Every time a borg assimilates a species, it learns all their tricks and the way they think, so if the borg assimilate one little flood, they know everything.

They wouldn't learn everything, only what the Flood learned from its host. And I doubt a Borg could assimilate Gravemind. The best way to think of the Flood is as a sentient bioweapon. They have nearly the same function as the borg: assimilate races and learn of future feeding grounds. In this way, they are like a cross between the Wraith in Stargate: Atlantis and the Borg. If a flood infects a capitain of a ship, they immediately start to sift through his memorys, then deleting the memorys from existance, untill they find a planet or something usefull. The flood only die from extreamly trauma to the body.They will continue to fight even if their head and arms have been blasted of. They have a habit of not staying dead. And if you kill a combat form, a new infection form can come and take control of the body. Their is a reason their called the Flood. And did I mention these guys can jump about 50 feet into the air and land right next to you?

I conceded in the Warhammer thread that magic is its trump card. Q, Organians and Traveller are the closest that the Trek universe has to "magic". Q are the only beings that have gone on the offensive. Tech to tech Warhammer would probably struggle, but there's that pesky magic again. Maybe Capt. Picard should go back in time and bring in Harry Potter :p



Halo however has little experience with transporters, and a self defeating superweapon that is deadly to all life in its own galaxy. No shields to speak of, still reliant on (quaint) nuclear armaments, and afraid of some squishy creatures. I have seen no evidence of magic in Halo.

I have already said that Federation doctors are especially adept in genetic engineering. Flood capabilities provide no new and undefeatable challenges to them (see my examples in previous posts).

. And I doubt a Borg could assimilate Gravemind. The best way to think of the Flood is as a sentient bioweapon.

Sure, no probs...I have no issue that pre Voyager (Scorpion) Borg would have been completely incapable of assimilating the Flood. However:

1. They could incinerate them at a distance. Species 8472 proves highly resistant to Borg weapons, but this doesn't mean the Flood is.
2. The Borg have now learned of Federation genetic manipulation. They only need a single clean scan, or one dna molecule from the Flood to adapt the Voyager weapon.


And did I mention these guys can jump about 50 feet into the air and land right next to you?

Wow...the Flood creatures are large mexican jumping beans. Scary.

Did I mention that all Federation ships have transporters and can move personnel across a planet and inclusive of the sector in orbit, limited only by the fact that the beam is necessarily straight ?

*Deleted by poster*

Alas, when you say primitive, you are referring to humans. The Covenent are like technological vultures. They got their tech directly from the Forerunners. They have shields, megastructures, torpedos powerful enough to melt through all the decks of battleships, mile long capital ships, and an armada vast enough that it would make the Borg Queen go " Holy Shit!!!!" if she had emotions. And you don't seem to know very much about the Flood. If were afraid of squishy creatures, wouldn't you think theres a reason? Wouldn't you think they would be considered enough of a threat to give reason to building the Halos? Wouldn't you think there would be a reason they activated the Halos? The Forerunners are considered demigods for several reasons. And I would think that were the Flood vulnarable to bio-weapons, the Forerunners would have wiped them out. 343 Guilty Spark even says " After exausting EVERY last avaible option, the Forerunners activated the Halos, destroying themselves and all sentient life within 12 galactic radii of the galactic center". Notice that he says "every". That includes bioweapons. Granted, incineration would indeed be effective against the Flood, seeing as how the Sentinals of the Halos use that to destroy the Flood. But unless you can give about 30+ such weapons to the troops, then you will be overwhelmed. You can sum it up quite nicely by what an infected Covenent Prophet once said: "The Forerunners not defeat us, what chance you!". Notice that these words were coming from the Infection Form that was controlling the body; the former Prophet had absolutely no control, being compleatly assimilated.

The Flood jumping thing is indeed scary becuase they land next to you and then proceed to rip your head off. And tell me why you think that the Covenent still use nukes? I think I spy a ravenous trekkie. You absolutely refuse to come to compromises or see things for both sides. I'm starting to think your the TW of Trek fans. For the sake of Challenger and Fettman, I'll post a link:http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page

"The actual technology is not plasma as we know it, but something far more dangerous, arcane, and destructive."

And you said they dont have shields have you never played the games or opend one of the books?

To know your enemy is to know their strengths and weaknesses. And no he has never opened a book becuase he has never heard of the Nova Bomb. Perhaps we should get Saquist or Kitt in here. What do you think, Fettman?

Sounds good to me they at least try to understand the other sides arguments

I've only played Halo 1. Didn't really pursue it after that...Not all that interesting.

Alas, when you say primitive, you are referring to humans.

Well...clearly then, you should not have used a human weapon like the NOVA bomb. If you want to talk Trek Federation v Covenant then Trek Federation need not worry about that weapon; the UNSC would probably seek help from Starfleet against the Covenant.


The Covenent are like technological vultures. They got their tech directly from the Forerunners. They have shields, megastructures, torpedos powerful enough to melt through all the decks of battleships, mile long capital ships, and an armada vast enough that it would make the Borg Queen go " Holy Shit!!!!" if she had emotions

She has emotions, and trillions of drones. The Borg assimilate entire worlds. Their weapons are capable of cutting thru ship metals, just like the Covenant. Their Cubes are 3 kilometers per side. There's very little that would make the Borg Queen go "Holy Shit". She usually prompts that reaction in others.


And you don't seem to know very much about the Flood. If were afraid of squishy creatures, wouldn't you think theres a reason? Wouldn't you think they would be considered enough of a threat to give reason to building the Halos?

Who cares? From the description they seem to be a superior evolution of biology, that the Federation has successfully faced and defeated on screen, thru deviously clever application of genetic engineering


And I would think that were the Flood vulnarable to bio-weapons, the Forerunners would have wiped them out. 343 Guilty Spark even says " After exausting EVERY last avaible option, the Forerunners activated the Halos, destroying themselves and all sentient life within 12 galactic radii of the galactic center". Notice that he says "every". That includes bioweapons.

No it does not. It merely includes all weapons in Halo canon. It cannot include Trek weapons, simply because they do not exist in the Halo universe. You have not presented any premise where anyone used nano-biological weapons similar to that deployed by Voyager's EMH and the Borg.


Granted, incineration would indeed be effective against the Flood, seeing as how the Sentinals of the Halos use that to destroy the Flood. But unless you can give about 30+ such weapons to the troops, then you will be overwhelmed.

How about just 50 Borg Cubes against a Flood populated world? They'd reduce that planet to ash in minutes. You are assuming ground-to-ground. I however can see the value of a planetary assault against a foe that depends on ground troups


You can sum it up quite nicely by what an infected Covenent Prophet once said: "The Forerunners not defeat us, what chance you!". Notice that these words were coming from the Infection Form that was controlling the body; the former Prophet had absolutely no control, being compleatly assimilated.

Again, the Flood would have to successfully penetrate their opponents defenses. I completely agree with you that if successful in getting past the array of advanced shielding and weaponry a Flood entity (or entities) would likely be able to absorb humans/Romulans/Klingons or whatever; but your arguments assume that folks in the Trek universe would sit like bumps on a log and do nothing while a hostile invasion force approaches. That's not how a versus argument works.


The Flood jumping thing is indeed scary becuase they land next to you and then proceed to rip your head off. <...> I think I spy a ravenous trekkie.

Yes, and that ability only works when you fight on the ground. Fleet starships, Empire NeghVars, Senate Warbirds, Collective Cubes can stand at a distance and pound a planet to dust. So while the Flood entities all hop along at 50 feet in the air, the planet they're hopping along on is being burned.

And trust me, if Starfleet won't do it (they'd probably take too long before starting a widescale assault like that), the Klingons & Romulans would. The Borg wouldn't even hesitate.

Honestly I think that you guys keep baiting Trek fans into what you consider unwinnable situations, then begin with the personal jabs. "Halo v Trek, Wars v. Trek, Warhammer v. Trek". I will tell you honestly I knew nothing about Warhammer til that thread, and the only thing that seems stunning is the military use of magic.


And tell me why you think that the Covenent still use nukes?<...>
You absolutely refuse to come to compromises or see things for both sides. I'm starting to think your the TW of Trek fans. For the sake of Challenger and Fettman, I'll post a link:http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page


And who cares why the Covenant still uses nukes? This is immaterial as the Federation and other Trek races successfully defend against nuclear arms a looooong time ago. Fleet and ally ships would scoff at most nuclear weapons. Perhaps not the NOVA bomb, due to its unique application, but they can probably successfully avoid or dismantle them. Material nuclear weapons at crawling speeds are hardly a threat to Trek or Wars even.

Plus you have yet to provide any canon evidence of your claims. While TW is very abrasive, he at least provides the evidence that he interprets to support his arguments. You're only making assertions.

It would be a good fight but the Cov out number the borg it would be a matter of time and it seems that the crew of the UPF ships that get attacked when they see the borg they stand there and do nothing.

Okay, so half a million mile long ships, each with an army and full complement of fighters and transports, wouldn't scare Trek? If you played Halo 2, Spark does indeed say that at the end, when asked by the Arbiter. And I would think that a race unimaginably more advanced then humans, who can manipulate space-time, subspace, and physics, would be smart enough to know how to create a nano-virus against the Flood. I mean, if they can make a few meter round ball have the interior space of a planet, construct a planet that can be scanned and appear no different then any other planet, and can create AI's that are stable for millenia, why can't they make a nano-virus? If they can destroy all life in the galaxy, why can't they make a nano-virus? We are talking about a race more advanced then any other race in all of Sci-fi, and more powerful then the Q in ST. Why wouldn't they be able to make a nano-virus?

But Q is not bothered by effects of the flesh, If the forerunners lost to the flood then they are inferior to Q.

Borg out number Covenant ? Figures please, And even if this were true, you don't factor in the borg's ability to adapt.

It would be a good fight but the Cov out number the borg it would be a matter of time and it seems that the crew of the UPF ships that get attacked when they see the borg they stand there and do nothing.

I'm beginning to repeat myself. By canon, the Borg number in the trillions. Thus far you only assert, but do not provide evidence.

And I beg to differ. Captain Picard initially did not attack the Borg because of his in built training of First Contact protocols. However, now that the Federation knows of the Borg, they shoot first and ask questions later. Similarly, I will grant that the Covenant will probably get the first blow, maybe even the first kill. But the Feds won't stand still further than the first incident...

Okay, so half a million mile long ships,

When did u get from "mile long" to "half a million mile long"??? The Earth is 7926mi in diameter at the equator. You mean to say, that Halo ships are 63 times as long as the Earth?


each with an army and full complement of fighters and transports, wouldn't scare Trek? If you played Halo 2, Spark does indeed say that at the end...

A full complement of what? 1000? 100? What's a complement?

I'd like someone to verify this Halo 2 ending conversation. The best I'm finding online is fan wiks, hardly canon evidence, and completely unrelated in any event. If necessary I'll take a half hour or so this weekend to beat the game myself.


...If you played Halo 2, Spark does indeed say that at the end, when asked by the Arbiter. And I would think that a race unimaginably more advanced then humans, who can manipulate space-time, subspace, and physics, would be smart enough to know how to create a nano-virus against the Flood.

Sure you'd think so. But unless the Halo producers, writers and directors think so the characters cannot and do not have genetic manipulation capabilities. If you "think so" for everything, this discussion is reduced to a game of 'neener neener'. Please provide evidence or examples.


I mean, if they can make a few meter round ball have the interior space of a planet, construct a planet that can be scanned and appear no different then any other planet, and can create AI's that are stable for millenia, why can't they make a nano-virus? If they can destroy all life in the galaxy, why can't they make a nano-virus?

No they might not. Nuclear and directed energy weapons development, spatial physics, cloaking devices and computer intelligence research are completely different to biological/genetic and nanotechnological engineering. You must provide canon evidence of a similar weapon (as STVOY used), or it simply cannot exist in the Halo universe as a useable weapon for the purposes of this argument. Similarly, there is no nuclear device like the NOVA bomb in Trek. There is however evidence that Trek techs can use transporter beams to scatter equipment into molecules (OBrien and Geordi have both provided this option on separate ocassions). There is also canon evidence that Federation transporters convert the destructive energy of undetonated weapons that pass thru it (eg STTNG: The Most Toys).

I edited an earlier post to add this, and I'll repeat it here: "You have yet to provide any canon evidence of your claims. (While TW is very abrasive, he at least provides the evidence that he interprets to support his arguments). You're only making assertions."



We are talking about a race more advanced then any other race in all of Sci-fi, and more powerful then the Q in ST. Why wouldn't they be able to make a nano-virus?

By who's definition??? Did Bungie/Alex Seropian declare the Covenant greater than all other races in SciFi to which LucasArts, the Roddenberry Foundation, Paramount Pictures, J. Michael Straczynski, Warner Bros. and countless other creators/rights holders bowed??

Where do you get off making a sweeping statement like that?

I was talking about the number of ships in an armada. Half a million mile long ships wouldn't scare them? And the Covenent do outnumber the borg. They control the entire Milky Way Galaxy. The Borg only control Delta Quadrent. Now which do you think is most outnumbered? As for Spark saying that, I'll post a link. Though it would seem I was wrong about the blast efect. It was three radii of the Galactic Center. In other words, they are kill everything in an area half again larger then the Milky Way. And it even says they exausted every last option.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ii38-0hkZJQ

There is the cutscene. As for the army, there was only one Covenent ship supplying soldiers on both Earth and the first Halo. In both cases, there were thousands of ground troops and hundreds of armor units. And the fighter and transport complement can be gained by comparing the fighter in Halo 2 with the hanger in Halo 1. The Hanger is big enough to house about 6 fighters and 2 transports. Thats just one hanger. And given that those are small by comparison to the ship, It would not be too bold to think that there are about 14 hangers on a ship, more for a Covenent Super Carrier.

The Forerunners did not lose to the Flood. They were considered an extreamly deadly, extreamly powerful parasite. They kept them in labs to study them. They were not at war with them. They merely wanted to kill the deadliest pest in the Galaxy. After all their previeous attempts failed, they activated the Halos, hoping it would starve the Flood to death via lack of hosts. But the presence of Shield Worlds like Onyx provides evidence of them still alive and well as a race. They specifacally state in Ghosts of Onyx that the Halos were to be the sword, Onyx their shield. The entire planet was constructed out of trillions of Golden Sentinal Drones. At the center of the planet was the dyson sphere, a small ball about 10 meters round. And next to them were three Spartan 3's, who were actually taken out of this dimension by Forerunner Sentinals. Inside the Dyson Sphere is a world just like Earth, and it was designed to be a place safe from the Halo's firing. It lays beneath what was once a Forerunner city. It was huge, the Forerunner equivalent of New York City.

And the Covenent do have favorite tactics: They like to appear in massive fleets, often commanded by a Flagship or a Supercarrier.

As for Glassing the surface of a planet, if that sounds unlikely to you, I present a picture:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/65/Covenant_over_reach.png/240px-Covenant_over_reach.png

That is a picture of Reach during the bombardment.

I was talking about the number of ships in an armada. Half a million mile long ships wouldn't scare them? And the Covenent do outnumber the borg. They control the entire Milky Way Galaxy. The Borg only control Delta Quadrent. Now which do you think is most outnumbered?

The Covenant = trillions, The Borg = trillions. Neither of us has any proof of exactly how many trillions. And merely because the Covenant has more territory, does not mean they outnumber the Borg...they just have that many slaves and browbeaten races. Slaves/Defeated populations hardly counts as soldiers! The Covenant's territory simply means that they are the only viable military might.

[QUOTE=halo07guy;1490033]
As for Spark saying that, I'll post a link. Though it would seem I was wrong about the blast efect. It was three radii of the Galactic Center. In other words, they are kill everything in an area half again larger then the Milky Way. And it even says they exausted every last option.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ii38-0hkZJQ

I'll have a look but before I even do, again "exhausted every last option" does not, in any way, present any evidence of the use of Star Trek technology (or similar) in Halo. You have yet to prove that Forerunners developed genetic engineering and applied nanotechnology. And, in proving this that they have the means of combining these two fields into a weapon.



There is the cutscene. As for the army, there was only one Covenent ship supplying soldiers on both Earth and the first Halo. In both cases, there were thousands of ground troops and hundreds of armor units. And the fighter and transport complement can be gained by comparing the fighter in Halo 2 with the hanger in Halo 1. The Hanger is big enough to house about 6 fighters and 2 transports. Thats just one hanger. And given that those are small by comparison to the ship, It would not be too bold to think that there are about 14 hangers on a ship, more for a Covenent Super Carrier.

It might not be bold to think so, but you have not provided evidence. You are pulling numbers out of your own imagination. As far as you have posted, there is one hanger bay. I have no evidence of a second far less for a 14!


The Forerunners did not lose to the Flood. They were considered an extreamly deadly, extreamly powerful parasite. They kept them in labs to study them. They were not at war with them. They merely wanted to kill the deadliest pest in the Galaxy. After all their previeous attempts failed, they activated the Halos, hoping it would starve the Flood to death via lack of hosts.

Nice going for an "all powerful race", kill everyone so that the squishy things can't eat.

- There is canon evidence that the Q Continuum can forcibly change the DNA of other lesser creatures...for example, they made Wesley age. What would stop the Q from aging the Flood parasites to death?
- There is canon evidence that Q can transport objects and people in time, all the way back to the Big Bang. What's to stop Q from carrying the Flood parasite population to the Big Bang and leaving them there to be decimated by the Universe itself?
- There is canon evidence as provided by TW that Jedi ascended are capable of attacking and killing physical beings without being affected by physical attacks themselves. What's to stop the ascended Quigon from handling the Flood parasites himself? (I just threw in the ascended Jedi to show you that your claim that the Covenant are the most powerful scifi race is absolute nonsense).




As for Glassing the surface of a planet, if that sounds unlikely to you, I present a picture:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/65/Covenant_over_reach.png/240px-Covenant_over_reach.png

That is a picture of Reach during the bombardment.

Actually, it sounded like a plausible weapons effect, glass after all is a derivative of sand. You didn't need to prove this one, but it looked kinda kewl. However...the effect necessarily means that the attacking ships must reach a planet first...you have yet to satisfactorily prove that they can begin to withstand the might of the Fedaration, far less for the Borg and the other Trek races.

(I may edit this post later)

It sounds kind of stupid for a Covenent ship to have just one small hanger, correct? And 14 is actually a good guess. The designers of the game have several refrences to seven. For example, in the book Halo: First Strike, it says that a covenent battleship has seven plasma projectors. 2401 Pentient Tangent has the numbers in his name add up to seven. And 2401 is 7 to the fourth power. 343 is seven to the third power. Forerunner architecture in the city revolves around the number seven. Seven Halos. Miranda keyes has the number seven emblazoned on her left cheek. 14 hangers is the likeliest number of hangers on a Covenent battleship ( 7 per side). Any less, and it doesn't fit the amount of transports and fighters mentioned in the books. A Covenent Super Carrier likely has about 42 hangers. And no, I don't mean that as a refrence to Douglas Adams. As for the Covenent designing ships that way, well if you had their mindset, wouldn't you want to imitate the gods?

I wasn't talking about the Covenent. It was the Forerunners I was talking about. I mean, even the Q would kill all life if it would supposedly stop the spread of an extreamly dangerous parasite. The Covenent do not enslave. You are either added to them, or you are wiped out. And the only known Covenent colony had 7000 ships in orbit. Thats just one colony. And add that to the billions and billions of other stars, each with their own planetary bodies in the Milky Way.

As for the Forerunners developing genetic engineering, it is widely regarded that the Flood were a Forerunner atteamt at cloning or re-animation ( Bring the dead back to life) that went horribly wrong. That would explain why they kept them in labs. And Humans today have genetic engineering, though a primitive kind. If a race is thousands of times more advanced then the Humans in 2552(77) then why wouldn't they have genetic engineering. It is even said that the Hunters were a result of an attempt to combat the flood with non-infectable soldiers.

As for nano tech, again humans in 2552 have primitive kinds of nanotech. If a race thousands of times more advanced then them can't make nanotech, then that just doesn't make any sense. I mean, they created planets, megastructures, once reigned over the entire galaxy, and compleatly destroyed any and all sentient things in said galaxy, why no nanotech?
And heres something else: why would you need to sterilize an area outside the Milky Way if you didn't inhabit it and no flood were there? Why would you need to contain the Flood for study if you wouldn't be around or any where near them them to study them?

Halo 3 is going to have 4 player online co-op

Borg, and UFP might work together, and eliminate the covenant, then help humanity find a solution against the flood.

I don't think the Borg allies with anyone. I would think that the Borg would try to take atvantage of the situation and attack either the Humans in Halo or the federation while its distracted. And remember, we are talking about a Coalition of many diffrent alien species that control the entire Milky Way, includng its arms. That would be about 300,000 lightyears of territory. Not even the Borg have that much territory. It would take forever for the Federation to try to wipe out the Covenent. And the Halo humans would likely defeat the Borg, as the Borg are weak against physical attacks. There is no on-screen evidence of any kinetic energy shield of any kind, and they don't raise shields untill they are attack. A single MAC heavy round is likely to shatter their ships.

Have you seen how big a borg ship is ?, They don't have a central anything, so you can;t kill them that easily, Also, A mac is a simple High Velocity Railgun, You think that that will pierce its shields or Shatter it ?
Nova Bombs, are transportable, and therefore demolecurizable, once detected fairly easily, goodbye.
Also, which book does it say the Cov has control of all the milky way ?
It also states in Ghosts of onyx that it is possible that the Forerunners couldn't get to the shield in time.

Maybe not hit a critical system, but that round is moving extreamly quickly and has tremendous kinetic energy. And the Borg do not raise shields until after they are attacked. Thats what they always do. So after the first round hits, they raise shields. But the kinetic energy is likely to compleatly shatter the ship. And it is not a railgun, its a coilgun. There is a very, very big diffrence between the two.

It is stated several times in manuals, the books, and guides that the Covenent control the entire Milky Way. The Borg are litterally faceing about 3 to 1 odds if they oppose the Covenent. Alas, if the fusionable material inside the NOVA bomb was detectable, wouldn't you think, the Covenent would of detected it? I mean, human prowlers are invisible to the Covenent. That means the have some material that scanners can't detect and hides all emmissions from inside. If you wanted to deliver a superweapon that would devastate your enemy, wouldn't you make it so that it would be undetectable? Wouldn't you think that the Borg, having never been exposed to MACs, would not have their ships prepared for it. The Borg have shields that might keep out energy weapons, but physical weapons have never been tried. And the Borg do not raise shields until after they are attack. Therefor, they don't raise shields until their ship is shattered by the first round. Photon torpedos have less kinetic energy then a MAC round, but still manage to penatrate the armor of a cube and destroy it. And because of Einstein's Theorys of Relativity, the round actually gets larger, giving it even more kinetiv energy. The closer something gets to light speed, the larger it gets until it becomes infintely large. Something moving at about 40% the speed of light is bound to have enough kinetic energy to shatter any ST ship.

Do they use Anti-matter in St?

The Covenant are Imititive not Initiative, they may have never gone through a nuclear stage in their development. Therefore never learnt to detect it.

The Borg have elements of duranium and heavy metals, the Halo universe does not, Titanium A plating is being used ... still. Why in several books does it take more than one round to puncture a covenant ship ? even a small one?

Also, other species occupy the milky way, universe on universe, the UFP, Klingons and Romulans share their own quadrants,

Even if you defeat the borg, The covenant have got Species 8472 to consider, As well as the other residents of the Alpha quadrant.
Also, since the Borg share a near telepathic link, as soon as one ship is destroyed, the borg will consider it a threat, therefore being prepped for it next time.

Do they use Anti-matter in St?

Both as weapons ammo and drive fuel. Now who sounds like he doesn't know the 'other side'?

It sounds kind of stupid for a Covenent ship to have just one small hanger, correct? And 14 is actually a good guess. The designers of the game have several refrences to seven.

Then, this means that the maximum you may claim is seven. Fourteen is your guess and useless in this discussion.


For example, in the book Halo: First Strike, it says that a covenent battleship has seven plasma projectors. 2401 Pentient Tangent has the numbers in his name add up to seven. And 2401 is 7 to the fourth power. 343 is seven to the third power. Forerunner architecture in the city revolves around the number seven. Seven Halos. Miranda keyes has the number seven emblazoned on her left cheek. 14 hangers is the likeliest number of hangers on a Covenent battleship ( 7 per side). Any less, and it doesn't fit the amount of transports and fighters mentioned in the books. A Covenent Super Carrier likely has about 42 hangers.

All of this seven reference is cute and neat and whatnot. But it is more likely that seven is the total number of hangers, there is no reason that they'd double the number seven for any important ship function if seven is an important number. Seven Halos, Seven on a cheek, Seven plasma projectors...so why break the pattern to put in fourteen hangers? Just because it sounds neater to you? Nope, by your own post, the designers have referenced seven hangers, and that's all you can prove.

Have you seen the South Park episode where Cartman frames Kyle for the 9/11 attack? He uses a string of coincidental numbers and summations similar to this to support his illogical argument.


And no, I don't mean that as a refrence to Douglas Adams. As for the Covenent designing ships that way, well if you had their mindset, wouldn't you want to imitate the gods?

Again, a versus argument encompassing two scifi works that are not yours are not subject to the whims and fancies you'd like to place into it (this applies to anyone outside the creative and production process). You use the tenets and facets of the stories you see or read, not what you think sounds neater.


I wasn't talking about the Covenent. It was the Forerunners I was talking about. I mean, even the Q would kill all life if it would supposedly stop the spread of an extreamly dangerous parasite.

Q has no reason to kill all life (esp since he is powerful enough to affect any single species), and neither was there any Trek precident where the Q Continuum would even consider such an option. You cannot assume such. Matter of fact, it would seem that the Q Continuum are preservers of life, or else Q would not have been authorized to intervene in the last episode of STTNG.


The Covenent do not enslave. You are either added to them, or you are wiped out. And the only known Covenent colony had 7000 ships in orbit. Thats just one colony. And add that to the billions and billions of other stars, each with their own planetary bodies in the Milky Way.

Well then, this sounds almost exactly like the Borg. However, you have not shown me that the Covenant turns every inductee into a battle ready soldier. Matter of fact, from what I've read, the Covenant is divided into many roles, inclusive of politics and engineering. Their trillions of inductees are not all battle ready...matter of fact, the engineers are "extremely apathetic to combat". This will give the Borg superiority of troops since all drones are battle ready.


As for the Forerunners developing genetic engineering, it is widely regarded that the Flood were a Forerunner atteamt at cloning or re-animation ( Bring the dead back to life) that went horribly wrong. That would explain why they kept them in labs.

Is this widely regarded by Halo fans, or is this widely regarded by Halo canon history? And whether this is canon or not, this seems to support my argument that it is likely that the Forerunners suck at genetic engineering.


And Humans today have genetic engineering, though a primitive kind. If a race is thousands of times more advanced then the Humans in 2552(77) then why wouldn't they have genetic engineering. It is even said that the Hunters were a result of an attempt to combat the flood with non-infectable soldiers.

Humans today have barely scratched the surface of true genetic engineering, and this is completely immaterial to extrapolations of what another race would be capable of in the future.


As for nano tech, again humans in 2552 have primitive kinds of nanotech. If a race thousands of times more advanced then them can't make nanotech, then that just doesn't make any sense. I mean, they created planets, megastructures, once reigned over the entire galaxy, and compleatly destroyed any and all sentient things in said galaxy, why no nanotech?
And heres something else: why would you need to sterilize an area outside the Milky Way if you didn't inhabit it and no flood were there? Why would you need to contain the Flood for study if you wouldn't be around or any where near them them to study them?

Sigh. Terraforming, mettalurgy, political prowess, weapons of mass destruction are completely different achievements and have no bearing on either biological and genetic manipulation or applied nanotechnology. Unless (as with the hangers) you can provide a creator quote, an ingame example or a book reference, there is no weapon that uses genetic nanobots (a la STVOY) as a payload in Halo.

Why is it that you accuse me of sounding the ravenous fanboy, yet you commit yourself to the same description?

The Humans use Titanium-A, which is a fictional varient of today's titanium. The Coevnent have shields up 24/7, which can't be said of the Borg. A Covenent ship suvived a high speed impact with an asteroid while chasing the PoA in the Battle of Reach. The ship was about 70% intact after the battle.

It is said that they are imitative which is the key word. The Forerunners use 7 and mutiples of seven in their acrhitecture, and designs. The Coevenent picked up that kind of designing. Quite contray to what you think. If the Flood were created by the Forerunners, doesn't that kind of make it a dead give-a-way that they were experienced in GE? I mean, I have yet to see ST create a race of sentient creatures in a lab. Considering this, they could of been a bio-weapon that back fired.

And the Forerunner as another race? Are you blind! The Humans ARE the Forerunners. Lets tally it up shall we? There is 343 saying on-board the Pillar of Auttumn that he was sifting through a record of all their lost time. Only Humans can become Reclaimers. The Ark is underneath the birth place of mankind. The Covenent not expecting a Human presence during the First Battle of Earth. John thought that the buttons on the Holographic panel looked familar, as it did to all spartans and Humans. The Monitors speak perfect English, as evidenced by Miranda and Johnson not needing to have a translation system to understand them. And terraforming does have something to do with GE. You have to modify the plant so that it grows on the surface. If the Forerunners terraformed planets all over the Galaxy, then why don't they have GE? Nanites would be required for the Halo's to repair eternal systems that the construction drones can't reach. Assuming that a race doesnt have something becuase you have never seen it is just real, real bad logic. And the Covenent have a reactors on their ships. That kind of implies that they have a some form of nuclear reaction going on inside the ship. Wheter it be Antimatter-Matter reactions, Fusion, or Fission, it stilll means they have been exposed to some kind of nuclear device. They have been exposed to their reactors for who knows how long. Saying they don't have sensors that can't pick-up 9 massive fusion warheads tied together is just strange.

The Covenent do innovate but on a limted scale. For example, the needler on the Enforcer and the Covenent needler. The primary diffrence is that the Covenent one homes in. Plasma pistols likely didn't have an overcharge function when in the hands of the Forerunner.

I don't think the Borg allies with anyone. I would think that the Borg would try to take atvantage of the situation and attack either the Humans in Halo or the federation while its distracted. And remember, we are talking about a Coalition of many diffrent alien species that control the entire Milky Way, includng its arms. That would be about 300,000 lightyears of territory. Not even the Borg have that much territory. It would take forever for the Federation to try to wipe out the Covenent. And the Halo humans would likely defeat the Borg, as the Borg are weak against physical attacks. There is no on-screen evidence of any kinetic energy shield of any kind, and they don't raise shields untill they are attack. A single MAC heavy round is likely to shatter their ships.

You are correct and incorrect in some cases here

1. The Borg have shown the ability to ally or compromise if it suits their purposes at the time. Or else the Borg would have been subdued by Species 8472.
2. The Borg would indeed use a universe clash to attempt to assimilate any technology they do not already have. Whatever their alliance might be.
3. Expansive territory does not give a comparitive weapons and military personnel estimate. However, it would seem that only the Borg can match the Covenant in sheer numbers of manpower.
4. You assume a lot. While it is very true that a few Borg soldiers will indeed fall against a projectile weapon attack (or indeed any unfamiliar or even unexpected weapon attack), the first few shots will be all that'll be effective. Borg personal shielding adapt to any weapon; Captain Picard, Commander Data, Commander Worf, Commander Shelby, Captain Janeway, Commander Tuvok and Seven of Nine have all stated, implied or demonstrated this onscreen. Especially important here is Captain Picard's "First Contact" holodeck scene where he mutters that he only has a few shots at killing the Borg with the holographic tommygun. This "kinetic energy" shield is a Stargate inspired strawman, that is not applicable to the Borg.

Maybe not hit a critical system, but that round is moving extreamly quickly and has tremendous kinetic energy. And the Borg do not raise shields until after they are attacked. Thats what they always do. So after the first round hits, they raise shields. But the kinetic energy is likely to compleatly shatter the ship. And it is not a railgun, its a coilgun. There is a very, very big diffrence between the two.

This is crap, the Borg ships have demonstrated that it is perfectly capable of defending against projectile weapons. What do you think a torpedo is?

You are only right in that it'll cost the Borg one or two ships before the shields adapt.



It is stated several times in manuals, the books, and guides that the Covenent control the entire Milky Way. The Borg are litterally faceing about 3 to 1 odds if they oppose the Covenent.

The Borg would be facing a larger territory than theirs. That's all. You have not given any reference that the Covenant's military machine is 3 times as large as the Borg's. Unlike you and Halo, TW can provide actual numbers of soldiers available to the Star Wars Empire. It is very likely, according to the Halo Covenant write up that at least one third of the Covenant population are not soldiers, but politicians and engineers who do not engage in battle.

Bungie and Halo unfortunately have not been around as long as wither Wars or Trek, and has had no time to arm you with enough canon evidence. This however does not allow you to make up your own.


Alas, if the fusionable material inside the NOVA bomb was detectable, wouldn't you think, the Covenent would of detected it? I mean, human prowlers are invisible to the Covenent. That means the have some material that scanners can't detect and hides all emmissions from inside. If you wanted to deliver a superweapon that would devastate your enemy, wouldn't you make it so that it would be undetectable?

What does any of this have to do with Federation or Borg scanners? I have already stated that the Federation has much experience with both nuclear arms and cloaking technology. The Covenant's ineptitude(s) does not automatically lend to any Trek race.



Wouldn't you think that the Borg, having never been exposed to MACs, would not have their ships prepared for it. The Borg have shields that might keep out energy weapons, but physical weapons have never been tried. And the Borg do not raise shields until after they are attack. Therefor, they don't raise shields until their ship is shattered by the first round.

This is very very true. The Borg will not be ready for a MAC attack, and will likely lose a first few Cubes or Spheres or whatever before they adapt. This however, as they say, is irrelevant. The Borg ships will eventually become completely immune to such a weapon.


Photon torpedos have less kinetic energy then a MAC round, but still manage to penatrate the armor of a cube and destroy it.

Incorrect. Photon torpedos are next to ineffectual to a Borg ship. Transphasic torpedos however are effective, and quantum torpedoes to a lesser extent but these weapons do not depend on kinetic energy.


And because of Einstein's Theorys of Relativity, the round actually gets larger, giving it even more kinetiv energy. The closer something gets to light speed, the larger it gets until it becomes infintely large. Something moving at about 40% the speed of light is bound to have enough kinetic energy to shatter any ST ship.

You are attempting to reinvent science. Light travels at 186000 miles per second in a vacuum. A MAC round according to you is less than 8000mi per second. This is a mere FOUR percent of the speed of light. Actually 7440:186000 is exactly four percent; I imagine this was purposeful rather than serendipitous on the part of the Halo creators. This is a laughable velocity in Trek, and not even enough to be relevant to your above remark.

Plus, you clearly have no data as to what Trek shields can withstand.

So the Borg can adapt to projectiles when we've countless episodes showing otherwise ( Data kicking a drones ass in hand to hand combat, a drone losing his head to a bat'leth.). Most episodes featuring it are against the adaption to projectiles or physical attacks. I think that what Picard said was referring to limited time or not alot of ammo ( I think he was using the model with the 50 round drum magazine, correct?). Regardless, it is cool to watch Picard go Capone on someone's ass. Speaking of which, I saw a guy who looked just like Picard in a Steak'n'Shake a few weaks ago.....

It would seem the Calculator online got the number wrong. I apparently entered 4 instead of .4. Anyway, I got 74,400 mile per second. Still don't think thats enough KE to shatter a ship?

It is said that they are imitative which is the key word. The Forerunners use 7 and mutiples of seven in their acrhitecture, and designs. The Coevenent picked up that kind of designing. Quite contray to what you think.

You are grasping at straws. According to the designers' references there are seven docking bays. Fourteen is a guess fuelled by you.


If the Flood were created by the Forerunners, doesn't that kind of make it a dead give-a-way that they were experienced in GE?

No it does not. Creatures that one grows in a lab that decide to 'eat' everyone, including its creators is tantamount to a catastrophic failure, related to complete inexperience in genetic engineering.


I mean, I have yet to see ST create a race of sentient creatures in a lab. Considering this, they could of been a bio-weapon that back fired.

Commander Data, Lore, Mrs. Soong (and arguably B4) - a race of four sentient androids, now extinct unfortunately. The Voyager's EMH and the Mark One Holograms. Flesh is not a prerequisite of sentience by the way.


And the Forerunner as another race? Are you blind! The Humans ARE the Forerunners. Lets tally it up shall we? There is 343 saying on-board the Pillar of Auttumn that he was sifting through a record of all their lost time. Only Humans can become Reclaimers. The Ark is underneath the birth place of mankind. The Covenent not expecting a Human presence during the First Battle of Earth. John thought that the buttons on the Holographic panel looked familar, as it did to all spartans and Humans. The Monitors speak perfect English, as evidenced by Miranda and Johnson not needing to have a translation system to understand them.

Structure your responses carefully, I had a tough time sifting thru this one.

The human-Forerunner link is a fan-based interpretation hanging on 343's single sentence that only hints at the possibility. There is no canon evidence of the Forerunners being human or alien. Added to that there is absolutely zero canon evidence of Forerunners having directly descended from Earth humans - hence you cannot know that the development of science is the same.


And terraforming does have something to do with GE. You have to modify the plant so that it grows on the surface. If the Forerunners terraformed planets all over the Galaxy, then why don't they have GE?

Hm...I grant that plants do require some basic genetic studies, however, this is a lower and primitive form of non-sentient animal fodder. Much easier to manipulate than a human or alien life form that Trek doctors accomplish on a regular basis. And certainly this is no indication that Forerunners have a clue of how to weaponize a nanoprobe device to destroy a particular chain of complex DNA.


Nanites would be required for the Halo's to repair eternal systems that the construction drones can't reach.

Why? Is this said anywhere in any Halo game, book or creative process? And how would this prove a nano-genetic weapon application?


Assuming that a race doesnt have something becuase you have never seen it is just real, real bad logic.

Well then, in that case, I can tell you that:

- the Q Continuum are the future form of humans, and can wipe out any race in Halo with a thought.
- Or that since the Federation also have nanites, Starfleet ships can also self repair in the heat of battle like the Borg.
- Or all humans in the Federation are completely immune to genetic resequencing thus incapable of falling to a Flood attack. Haloguy, the Feds are skilled at genetic engineering so they can adapt their own bodies to be immune.
Just because you've never seen it doesn't mean Starfleeters can't do it.

Again, and I reiterate, once more, if you assume technology/achievements outside of what is stated by canon reference material, this conversation is merely reduced to "my daddy is bigger than your daddy".


nd the Covenent have a reactors on their ships. That kind of implies that they have a some form of nuclear reaction going on inside the ship. Wheter it be Antimatter-Matter reactions, Fusion, or Fission, it stilll means they have been exposed to some kind of nuclear device. They have been exposed to their reactors for who knows how long. Saying they don't have sensors that can't pick-up 9 massive fusion warheads tied together is just strange.

I said that Trek sensors are very sensitive and Starfleet technology can overcome different types of cloaks (Klingon/Romulan/time shifts etc). Now you said that the NOVA bomb is a stealth weapon which makes it successful.

Alas, if the fusionable material inside the NOVA bomb was detectable, wouldn't you think, the Covenent would of detected it? I mean, human prowlers are invisible to the Covenent. That means the have some material that scanners can't detect and hides all emmissions from inside. If you wanted to deliver a superweapon that would devastate your enemy, wouldn't you make it so that it would be undetectable?

Clearly, then, the stealth means that it is intended to fool the Covenant. Or the Flood.

Either way, my argument was that there is little reason that Starfleet ships would stand still when their sensors detect a massive nuclear bomb chugging slowly toward them. I also saw no indication that the NOVA bombs are stealth in the first place.

-----


So the Borg can adapt to projectiles when we've countless episodes showing otherwise ( Data kicking a drones ass in hand to hand combat, a drone losing his head to a bat'leth.). Most episodes featuring it are against the adaption to projectiles or physical attacks.

Yes they can adapt to projectiles. However you are quite correct in that they are extremely slow as ground troops to adapt to projectile weapons. They clearly though have physical prowess as seen in STTNG: Best of Both Worlds when a Borg drone almost overpowers Worf (if not for Data), or when Locutus (formerly "frail, old" Picard) was pushing toe-to-toe (or hand to hand) against Data until Data accidentally detached his arm. You also see Borg drones in physical combat in a couple episodes of STVOY inclusive of Seven-of-Nine in "Shattered" where she cold-conked a Kazon with one punch. Or in "Tsunakatse" where she went up against The Rock in a no-holds fight match (she only lost because she was slow to violence, and hey...it was The Rock), or where she almost killed a Hirogen when Voyager beamed her off the stage. And this is without the full Borg armor.

It was however fun to see Captain Janeway go Amazoness on a Borg drone and decaptitate it with a bat'leth.

Despite the fact that Borg drones on first face-off do not fare well against projectile weapons, they have show the ability to do so, and therefore you cannot assume that it is completely impossible for the Borg to withstand a projectile or physical attack.

Also, this is on the ground or if Borg ships are boarded. You assume that the Borg will not simply stand in orbit and scorch a Covenant planet, or assimilate ship after ship with the ease we have seen them accomplish same, save for Species 8472.



I think that what Picard said was referring to limited time or not alot of ammo ( I think he was using the model with the 50 round drum magazine, correct?). Regardless, it is cool to watch Picard go Capone on someone's ass. Speaking of which, I saw a guy who looked just like Picard in a Steak'n'Shake a few weaks ago.....

You're going with this thing again "I think". In cases of ambiguity, one should evaluate known abilities and refrain from adding other variables (eg how much ammo an un-fired tommy gun would have had in the scene). The known variables are 1. projectile weapon and 2. adaptive shielding. I don't think I need to continue.

Patrick Stewart eats just like regular humans ;)

-----

It would seem the Calculator online got the number wrong. I apparently entered 4 instead of .4. Anyway, I got 74,400 mile per second. Still don't think thats enough KE to shatter a ship?

This is akin to you flinging a ping pong ball at a bird. If you're firing a projectile at 7440 mi/s at a ship at quarter impulse (a tad less than 46,500 mi/s, 6 times as fast as the MAC projectile), what do you think that ship would do? Stall its engines and wait for it? Forget about its light speed phaser array?

This is why Trek ships prefer phasers/disruptors over torpedos at sublight speed, a lot of ships would simply dodge a projectile and/or blow it to bits with a directed energy weapon.

"The actual technology is not plasma as we know it, but something far more dangerous, arcane, and destructive."

I forgot to address this. Halo canon has no indication of magic weapons. This quote is a blatantly desperate attempt to insinuate magics where there are none. Were you bamboozled by the word "arcane"? "Arcane" simply means mysterious and unknown. How do you get to magical from anything in that quote?

Remember Arthur C. Clark's famous quote: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic". I daresay that humans in the Halo Universe would say that Trek's transphasic torpedos are "arcane" as well.

Perhaps, but the Forerunner-Human evolutionary link is hinted at in all the novels and the games. I mean, a place that protects against the Halo's effects right underneath the birthplace of mankind. Doesn't that seem to make it a bit obvious that they are the direct desencdents of the Forerunners. And if you look close at the holograhic panels in Halo 2. You can see a some kind of activation button shaped like it was designed to accept either hand.

In Ghots of Onyx, a sentinal talks in LATIN. That is incredible evidence that the Forerunners are Humans. That or their latinoes. *thinks about a bunch of space mexicans*

Heres a pic of the hand

http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Image:BigForerunner_Hand.jpg

As for their being nanites on the Halos, consider this. When your making something, there are prerequiste technologys that you must have before building it. Skyscrapers needed elevators, steel, new methods of building, and new machines created before the first one could be built. You have to have certain technologies to build something. For the Halos, that would be new ways of building, new power systems, new alloys, new machines to construct the thing, new structural support techs, new factorys to manufacture the parts, new life support techs, new AI systems, new computers and algorithms, just about new everything. There has to be a certain kind of technology base before you can build something. The Halo's definately have some kind of circuit systems and replicators/slash factorys. Those sentinals are built in 5 or so seconds by the Forerunners. If we or ST tried it, it would take them weeks, even months. They likely have some kind of nano-bot assembler. ST might get a scan of the Halos, but they can't produce them, simply because their technology base is not advanced enough.

I also notcie that in every ST vs match, someone pulls the old Borg or Q card. Its getting very tiresome having to argue with you guys because you consider the Borg and Q to come save your asses if you look like your losing.

I also noticed that you ignored the correct number when I corrected myself.You instead went with the lower number, which wasthe incorrect one. Standard tactic there. Take the lowest number you can find and stick to it, right?

74,400, miles per second

I don't think even a Sovereign can dodge that.

Perhaps, but the Forerunner-Human evolutionary link is hinted at in all the novels and the games.

Provide a quote from a sample of these novels, just the same way you provided the Spark quote.


I mean, a place that protects against the Halo's effects right underneath the birthplace of mankind. Doesn't that seem to make it a bit obvious that they are the direct desencdents of the Forerunners. And if you look close at the holograhic panels in Halo 2. You can see a some kind of activation button shaped like it was designed to accept either hand.

This simply means a similar biology. Klingons have 5 fingered hands. Vulcans do as well. Romulans, Talaxians, Cardassians, Bajorans, Q. Do I tell you that this is evidence of them being human offshoots or future-selves?

And once more this does not give any canon evidence of the same scientific achievement sequence!


In Ghots of Onyx, a sentinal talks in LATIN. That is incredible evidence that the Forerunners are Humans. That or their latinoes. *thinks about a bunch of space mexicans*

???????????????

1. Latin is a European ancient language, with its roots in Rome and surroundings. Latinos are people of Latin American origin (Latino, derived from "latinoamericano"). Latino people speak Spanish!
2. Similarity of language lends no evidence to similarity of scientific research.
3. Star Trek TOS has met Greek Gods that speak perfect English. Does this mean that they're future state humans?



As for their being nanites on the Halos, consider this. When your making something, there are prerequiste technologys that you must have before building it. Skyscrapers needed elevators, steel, new methods of building, and new machines created before the first one could be built. You have to have certain technologies to build something. For the Halos, that would be new ways of building, new power systems, new alloys, new machines to construct the thing, new structural support techs, new factorys to manufacture the parts, new life support techs, new AI systems, new computers and algorithms, just about new everything. There has to be a certain kind of technology base before you can build something. The Halo's definately have some kind of circuit systems and replicators/slash factorys. Those sentinals are built in 5 or so seconds by the Forerunners. If we or ST tried it, it would take them weeks, even months. They likely have some kind of nano-bot assembler.

This entire diatribe means nothing and shows heavy guesswork and rewriting of Halo canon by YOU. You do not work for Bungie, neither are you an authorized writer of the works. Halo construction only proved the ability to construct large, computer-controlled, space-station bombs. None of this proves applied nanotechnology, genetic engineering or the ability to combine them.

Trek has the ability to defeat the Flood for Halo, as similar circumstances show in STVOY. Halo races are unable to achieve this (thus far). You have no argument.


ST might get a scan of the Halos, but they can't produce them, simply because their technology base is not advanced enough.

This is somewhat true. Trek ships would indeed scan said Halos, but you cannot say that Trek does not have the ability reproduce them. The Federation indeed has the ability to replicate them, especially as you said Halo construction has to be replicator based (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Replicator) (which Trek has got in abundance). What is true is that the Feds do not have anything like a Halo, and with good reason. They do not see the forced extinction of races as an option to any threat. (Heh, Trek humans are morally superior to the vaunted 'Forerunners' your example of the ultimate race tsk!).

-----

I also notcie that in every ST vs match, someone pulls the old Borg or Q card. Its getting very tiresome having to argue with you guys because you consider the Borg and Q to come save your asses if you look like your losing.

1. What's wrong with that? You've declared war against the Trek universe! The Q Continuum is part of the Trek universe. Also, I was not first to bring in Borg comparisons.

2. YOU challenged the Q Continuum with the Forerunners (not to mention B5's First Ones & Star Wars Jedi when you said Forerunners are more advanced than any race in SciFi). Pathetic.

3. I am mostly arguing for Starfleet and the Federation, with Klingon and guardedly Romulan allies. I only speak of the Borg and Q when you and Fettman bring up crap points.

4. The Borg will not lift a servo to save the Federation. The Borg however would assimilate or destroy everything in the Halo universe. You have shown no technology that the Borg cannot overcome. The Flood is the only challenge to Borg assimilation, but they'd just fry the little things.


-----


I also noticed that you ignored the correct number when I corrected myself.You instead went with the lower number, which wasthe incorrect one. Standard tactic there. Take the lowest number you can find and stick to it, right?

74,400, miles per second

I don't think even a Sovereign can dodge that.

OH I do apologize, this was an unintentional misread. I just looked it up myself when you pointed it out.

At any rate, half impulse is over 90K mi/s. Warp 1 is light speed. Phasers are light speed. Torpedos fired in Warp are capable of sustaining the Warp factor that they're fired within. Warp 9.9 is 9909 times the speed of light.

At (lower) impulse speeds, it is true that it'd be more difficult for larger capital ships to dodge large projectiles. But hey, that's what they have Warp, and phasers for right? Not to mention smaller fighter ships (Defiants, Sabres, Mirandas, Steamrunners, Novas, Intrepids).

The SMAC ammo is somewhat noteworthy, but nothing that Starfleet ships can't handle. Give me a break.


-----

I also notice you missed your own contradictory statements where you say NOVA bombs have to be stealth, then you say NOVA bombs must be detectable. Which is it?

I said, if they WERE detectable.

As for the Sentinal speaking latin, I have the book right here.

: His own voice blasted through his speakers.
Fhejelet 'Pnught Juber.

(Later)Fhejelet non sequiter, now?

I got part of that. Non sequiter, thats Latin right?
(Later) Security protocols enabled. Ring offensive system activated. Shield in count-sown mode. Exchange proper counter-response, Reclaimer.

And excerpt from Halopedia about Forerunners and Humans:

When 343 Guilty Spark talks about activating the installation, he says "Last time you asked me if it was my choice, would I do it? Having considerable time to ponder your query, my answer has not changed." 343 Guilty Spark during Halo 1 also says to the Master Chief "Please stop being human" if Master Chief shoots at him in the Library, possibly implying that the monitor knows what humans are- or that the Forerunner are ancient descendants of humanity or humans themselves. Another instance when 343 Guilty Spark makes a reference to humans being linked to forerunners is when he says to the Master Chief, "The installation was specifically built to study and contain the Flood. Their survival as a race was dependent upon it. I am grateful to see that some of them survived to reproduce." This might be implying that humans are descendants of forerunners. However, it could also imply that 343 Guilty Spark is referring to the Flood.

The Halo installations seen in the games and novels also appear to have the same gravity and atmosphere as Earth; it would make sense that the Forerunner would attempt to make the Halos similar to their homeworld. The monitor asks "Why would you hesitate to do what you've already done?", after the Master Chief chooses not to activate Halo, possibly another hint to humanity's true roots.

On many of the walls of the Forerunner structures. there are geometrical and mathematical designs and patterns. If you look closely at certain walls you will find lines that greatly resemble a human face. It is easiest to find this on The Silent Cartographer, although they are also found on almost every level in Halo 1.


Late in the first Halo game, during a cutscene in the level "The Maw", [343 Guilty Spark] is shown pulling data out of the Pillar of Autumn's data core while saying, "You can't imagine how exciting this is, to have a record of all of our lost time! Oh I shall enjoy every moment of its categorization...", which may be another link between humans and Forerunners.

The fact that only humans, or Reclaimers, as the monitor refers to them can activate the rings. This is shown near the end of Halo 2 when Tartarus forced Miranda Keyes into placing the Index into Halo's control systems, rather than do it himself.

At the end of Halo 2, as the remaining rings are left in a state of standby after their firings are averted, Commander Miranda Keyes asks 343 Guilty Spark where one (i.e. the High Prophet of Truth) would go to remotely fire all the Halo rings. His response, full of surprise at the query, is "The Ark". Upon being asked the location of the Ark, the cutscene transitions to show Truth's ship arriving outside Earth's orbit.

The novels also appear to offer hints about the link between humans and Forerunners. Several Spartans recognize Forerunner symbols but they can't quite place them, which may mean that the information is deep in the subconscious. In Halo: The Flood, the Master Chief just 'knows' how to activate the light bridge, for some strange reason; the same appears true when he activates the Silent Cartographer. In Halo: First Strike, the Spartans just "know" how to operate the Wraith tanks. If the Covenant did indeed salvage technology from the Forerunners, then that might explain it.

In Halo: Ghosts of Onyx at one point one of the Spartan-IIIs is challenged by one of the sentinels in Latin. This could lead to more speculation that humans are in fact the forerunners or servants of them.

Halo 3 may also offer more clues or explanations. In the game's E3 announcement trailer, the vast Forerunner object the Master Chief observes resembles an earlier sketch that says "Ark" and Dervish, the early name for the Arbiter. Bungie has not confirmed that the object Master Chief witnesses is the Ark, only stating that it is a Forerunner artifact. Possible other hints include Cortana's monologue in the second underwater elevator during the Halo 2 Level- "Regret". She states that Regret's fleet had been ten times smaller than the Fleet that glassed Reach, that they had come to find something, such as the Ark.

An excerpt about Forerunner tech:The Halo rings themselves, as well as the Micro-Dyson sphere at the center of the artificial world Onyx, are, above all others, the most significant pieces of technology. The planet Onyx in particular demonstrates both their ability for engineering on a grand scale, and their near transcendent grasp of "Slipspace" technology.

I said, if they WERE detectable.

Avoidance. You alluded that the Covenant couldn't detect Nova bombs, then you state that the Covenant should be able to since they're experienced in nuclear science. You have been cornered on this one (see your statements in red). I accept no further arguments on the NOVA, since no Halo reference I can find even hints that they are stealth. They are fully detectable therefore by Trek sensors as a nuclear weapon and very succeptible to transporter technology, or even simply Warping out of the way.



As for the Sentinal speaking latin, I have the book right here.

: His own voice blasted through his speakers.
Fhejelet 'Pnught Juber.

(Later)Fhejelet non sequiter, now?

I got part of that. Non sequiter, thats Latin right?
(Later) Security protocols enabled. Ring offensive system activated. Shield in count-sown mode. Exchange proper counter-response, Reclaimer.

First...WHAT? Dude the first sentence sounds like a mixture of Hindi and Rose Nylund.

Second...WHAT? An alien being says "non sequiter" and you assume it means the same as our "non sequitur"? You also assume that it speaks fluent latin??? From one phrase?


And excerpt from Halopedia about Forerunners and Humans:

When 343 Guilty Spark talks about activating the installation, he says "Last time you asked me if it was my choice, would I do it? Having considerable time to ponder your query, my answer has not changed." 343 Guilty Spark during Halo 1 also says to the Master Chief "Please stop being human" if Master Chief shoots at him in the Library, possibly implying that the monitor knows what humans are- or that the Forerunner are ancient descendants of humanity or humans themselves.

All this proves is that the Spark knows what humans are. That is all. Captain Picard knows Worf is a Klingon, or Q is an amorphous near omnipotent being. Does that make them evolutionarily related??


Another instance when 343 Guilty Spark makes a reference to humans being linked to forerunners is when he says to the Master Chief, "The installation was specifically built to study and contain the Flood. Their survival as a race was dependent upon it. I am grateful to see that some of them survived to reproduce." This might be implying that humans are descendants of forerunners. However, it could also imply that 343 Guilty Spark is referring to the Flood.

This is a language barrier problem. This clearly states that the Flood were to survive for long term study.


The Halo installations seen in the games and novels also appear to have the same gravity and atmosphere as Earth; it would make sense that the Forerunner would attempt to make the Halos similar to their homeworld. The monitor asks "Why would you hesitate to do what you've already done?", after the Master Chief chooses not to activate Halo, possibly another hint to humanity's true roots.

Gravity measurements and planetary have almost nothing to do with higher-state evolution.


On many of the walls of the Forerunner structures. there are geometrical and mathematical designs and patterns. If you look closely at certain walls you will find lines that greatly resemble a human face. It is easiest to find this on The Silent Cartographer, although they are also found on almost every level in Halo 1.

I'm sure that Bajoran portrait artwork resembles human faces too. Your point?


Late in the first Halo game, during a cutscene in the level "The Maw", [343 Guilty Spark] is shown pulling data out of the Pillar of Autumn's data core while saying, "You can't imagine how exciting this is, to have a record of all of our lost time! Oh I shall enjoy every moment of its categorization...", which may be another link between humans and Forerunners.

Hm...this one is unverifiable in my opinion. This data core is clearly not human manufactured, yet present within humanity's reach. Perhaps Spark sought to learn something from the data core of his own origins that had nothing to do with humans.


The fact that only humans, or Reclaimers, as the monitor refers to them can activate the rings. This is shown near the end of Halo 2 when Tartarus forced Miranda Keyes into placing the Index into Halo's control systems, rather than do it himself.

No, this may only be such because the Forerunners were decimated before humanity's arrival. This might be the single piece of deitific ability that can be inferred because they'd have to know (predict) that humans would flourish as "an older race" in the future, and thus have access to Halos. No evidence of a genetic link there.


At the end of Halo 2, as the remaining rings are left in a state of standby after their firings are averted, Commander Miranda Keyes asks 343 Guilty Spark where one (i.e. the High Prophet of Truth) would go to remotely fire all the Halo rings. His response, full of surprise at the query, is "The Ark". Upon being asked the location of the Ark, the cutscene transitions to show Truth's ship arriving outside Earth's orbit.

Not sure what this is meant to prove.


The novels also appear to offer hints about the link between humans and Forerunners. Several Spartans recognize Forerunner symbols but they can't quite place them, which may mean that the information is deep in the subconscious. In Halo: The Flood, the Master Chief just 'knows' how to activate the light bridge, for some strange reason; the same appears true when he activates the Silent Cartographer. In Halo: First Strike, the Spartans just "know" how to operate the Wraith tanks. If the Covenant did indeed salvage technology from the Forerunners, then that might explain it.

This may simply be a plot device, or perhaps telepathic technology...which also exists in Trek. You'd have a tough time selling the idea of genetic memory for this.


In Halo: Ghosts of Onyx at one point one of the Spartan-IIIs is challenged by one of the sentinels in Latin. This could lead to more speculation that humans are in fact the forerunners or servants of them.

I'm not even going to bother with this Latin thing you brought up. However...you cleverly inserted "servants of them" which I take to mean that humans might have been servants of the Forerunners. How in hell does that prove a genetic link?


Halo 3 may also offer more clues or explanations. In the game's E3 announcement trailer, the vast Forerunner object the Master Chief observes resembles an earlier sketch that says "Ark" and Dervish, the early name for the Arbiter. Bungie has not confirmed that the object Master Chief witnesses is the Ark, only stating that it is a Forerunner artifact. Possible other hints include Cortana's monologue in the second underwater elevator during the Halo 2 Level- "Regret". She states that Regret's fleet had been ten times smaller than the Fleet that glassed Reach, that they had come to find something, such as the Ark.

An excerpt about Forerunner tech:The Halo rings themselves, as well as the Micro-Dyson sphere at the center of the artificial world Onyx, are, above all others, the most significant pieces of technology. The planet Onyx in particular demonstrates both their ability for engineering on a grand scale, and their near transcendent grasp of "Slipspace" technology.

None of which proves any biological link between Forerunners and humans thus far. We shall have to wait and see.

HOWEVER and please read this carefully...the point of you attempting to prove the Forerunner/human link is to assert that the Forerunners must necessarily have been experts at genetic engineering, since humans (who incidentally came after, and are developing it in the reality universe). As of now, there is still no evidence of this, further, this does not mean that Forerunners even had nanotechnology or a way to make a weapon out of nanobots and genetic research.

I am not guessing about non sequiter. That is the script in the book. Why don't you read it? And those were excerpts. I did not write them.

The range for ST ships is 40,000, Cov ships at their best acc is 100,000

well halo cuase covenet have higer techonology and loads more numbers plus ifit was a three way war covenent woudl also dominate

I am not guessing about non sequiter. That is the script in the book. Why don't you read it? And those were excerpts. I did not write them.

No no no...I didn't say you guessed that you saw this phrase...I'm telling you that you indeed saw this one single phrase, and assume that the character could speak an entire language just by getting a single phrase in a human language correctly.

- He could have picked it up from eavesdropping on Comms
- He could have gleaned it from hacking into human computers
- It might actually have a meaning in his language!

The range for ST ships is 40,000, Cov ships at their best acc is 100,000

The range of what, and in what measurements?

If you mean range of the ships' entire drive lifetime...who cares? This debate is about war tactics; n