I was just wondering if anyone else here sometimes feels an overwhelming sense of guilt or loss because there are people in other countries poorer then them. I find myself often confronted with commercials indicating how 3rd world nations have starving kids, terrible diseases, and I am sitting here using the internet!

I'm not sure what to make of this, or how to reconcile it in my own mind. If having money hurts others is it worth it? If I didn't have money wouldn't that be bad too?

Select your opinion using the poll, do you feel guilty thinking of poor people suffering while you are not?

i dont feel guilt about it, because at the moment i have no way of changing anything. however i do feel that it is my duty to do all i can when i have the opportunity.

No feeling of guilt, only happiness because I am not poor. If I had money, I would be glad to help underprivileged people; unfortunately, I only have enough to support myself and the ridiculous things I do.

No. I don't.

I was just wondering if anyone else here sometimes feels an overwhelming sense of guilt or loss because there are people in other countries poorer then them. I find myself often confronted with commercials indicating how 3rd world nations have starving kids, terrible diseases, and I am sitting here using the internet!

I'm not sure what to make of this, or how to reconcile it in my own mind. If having money hurts others is it worth it? If I didn't have money wouldn't that be bad too?

Select your opinion using the poll, do you feel guilty thinking of poor people suffering while you are not?

Depends on which people in the third world countries. In general though, life is a struggle, sometimes it's between you or them, them being everyone who is not in your family.

Now, if you are rich, then yes you can feel guilty, especially if you are rich and completely greedy, but if you are struggling to survive, feel fortunate that you werent born in a third world country and survive, if you work hard enough maybe you'll be rich enough to help some people.

I was just wondering if anyone else here sometimes feels an overwhelming sense of guilt or loss because there are people in other countries poorer then them. I find myself often confronted with commercials indicating how 3rd world nations have starving kids, terrible diseases, and I am sitting here using the internet!

I'm not sure what to make of this, or how to reconcile it in my own mind. If having money hurts others is it worth it? If I didn't have money wouldn't that be bad too?

Select your opinion using the poll, do you feel guilty thinking of poor people suffering while you are not?
What are you doing with your money?

You see, you have an opportunity here. You can sit down all day looking porn in the internet, or you can create a not-for-profit society in the internet, that gather money to help poor people. :D

Money is not necessarily bad. The only reason to feel guilt is if you waste all your resources over crap, rather then using to fight for the poor. If you feel guilty, it is only because you are not helping them. So maybe that's exactly what you should be doing, right? ;)

What are you doing with your money?

You see, you have an opportunity here. You can sit down all day looking porn in the internet, or you can create a not-for-profit society in the internet, that gather money to help poor people. :D

Money is not necessarily bad. The only reason to feel guilt is if you waste all your resources over crap, rather then using to fight for the poor. If you feel guilty, it is only because you are not helping them. So maybe that's exactly what you should be doing, right? ;)



The only way to help poor people, is to invest, through venture capital, and none of you have the money to do anything like that. At best you can do some type of micro-investment type of setup.

Helping the poor is not the job of the poor, it's the job of the rich, people who are likely on this site arent millionaires with the type of extra money to help anyone but themselves and their families. I don't blame you if you don't help complete strangers.

If you want to help the poor, forget about the people living in other countries, start by helping good people in your own community, then help good people in ghettos all accross this country start business by creating an investment fund for urban entrepreneurs. Thats how you help the poor.

When these people become successful enough, they'll do the same thing for each other in their own community, and it will eventually spread to the third world. I think donating money is a waste of money, it's too inefficient to accomplish anything. I think right now, the poor need investment so they can start small businesses, and you can profit too if you play your cards right. We should be investors.

What? Like in hookers?

LOL I'm just kidding, haha. So what the hells venture capital?

Yes. Though I am poor in many people's eyes. Guilt comes when I think of how wasteful I can be when others are literally starving.

Material possessions. Meh. Why should I feel guilty for something so peripheral, even incidental, to existence? I say less is more. Great material wealth often leaves little room for wealth of greater value.

Material possessions. Meh. Why should I feel guilty for something so peripheral, even incidental, to existence? I say less is more. Great material wealth often leaves little room for wealth of greater value.That may be hard for many millions upon millions of destitute to understand since the world is built on material wealth.

That may be hard for many millions upon millions of destitute to understand since the world is built on material wealth.
Bull.

The living world is built on the ability to survive to see tomorrow.

If the undeveloped world wishes to live like the developed world lives, the path has been clearly laid out for it.

If the undeveloped world wishes to live as the undeveloped world has always lived, the path is so well trodden that your guilt complexes are none of our concern.

Apparently, your "material guilt" isn't yet enough for you to actually adopt their destitute lifestyle to see if they actually desire more than your material guilt suggests that they should.

Need plane fare?

Bull.

The living world is built on the ability to survive to see tomorrow.

If the undeveloped world wishes to live like the developed world lives, the path has been clearly laid out for it.

If the undeveloped world wishes to live as the undeveloped world has always lived, the path is so well trodden that your guilt complexes are none of our concern.

Apparently, your "material guilt" isn't yet enough for you to actually adopt their destitute lifestyle to see if they actually desire more than your material guilt suggests that they should.

Need plane fare?Don't need plane fare to see poverty. It's right here in Kansas City too.

Don't need plane fare to see poverty. It's right here in Kansas City too.
But it's still not undeveloped world poverty.

Don't you think you need to visit the undeveloped world to actually learn about what motivates the undeveloped world's poor?

How many of the developed world's impoverished do you imagine can survive at the same level of survival the undeveloped world's "impoverished" do?

Could you?

If not, why not?

Seems there are all manners of different styles and degrees of "poverty", no?

But it's still not undeveloped world poverty.

Don't you think you need to visit the undeveloped world to actually learn about what motivates the undeveloped world's poor?

How many of the developed world's impoverished do you imagine can survive at the same level of survival the undeveloped world's "impoverished" do?

Could you?

If not, why not?

Seems there are all manners of different styles and degrees of "poverty", no?Nope. Don't have to go to Africa to know there's an Africa. Don't have to go to Somalia or Swaziland to know there is poverty. We as a race are only as great as our weakest & poorest. Do you really believe the overwhelming majority of human beings are just lazy and don't mind poverty? Are you really so under-educated that you don't see the wealth flow of the last 2k years? That rampant 3rd World poverty didn't just pop up out of nowhere? That Euro wealth flowed to the US, Canada and Australia/NZ? If not, you can't have an informed opinion on the OP.

Nope. Don't have to go to Africa to know there's an Africa. Don't have to go to Somalia or Swaziland to know there is poverty.
Ah. The consequence of a public education largely paid for by others.
We as a race are only as great as our weakest & poorest.
Ah. The consequence of a public education largely paid for by others.

We, as a race, also are only as great as our strongest and wealthiest.

Nature abhors the weakest (that's why their greatest contribution to life is as food), or hasn't your education noticed that no food stuff has ever been awarded a Nobel Prize for Tastiness?
Do you really believe the overwhelming majority of human beings are just lazy and don't mind poverty?
By your standards, or by theirs'?
Are you really so under-educated that you don't see the wealth flow of the last 2k years? That rampant 3rd World poverty didn't just pop up out of nowhere? That Euro wealth flowed to the US, Canada and Australia/NZ? If not, you can't have an informed opinion on the OP.
Thank you for making my point for me, too.

The Anglosphere is much different than everyone else.

3rd World poverty didn't just pop up out of nowhere. It's been around since the specie first decided there was more to life than being a mere ape.

Ah. The consequence of a public education largely paid for by others.

Ah. The consequence of a public education largely paid for by others.

We, as a race, also are only as great as our strongest and wealthiest.

Nature abhors the weakest (that's why their greatest contribution to life is as food), or hasn't your education noticed that no food stuff has ever been awarded a Nobel Prize for Tastiness?

By your standards, or by theirs'?

Thank you for making my point for me, too.

The Anglosphere is much different than everyone else.

3rd World poverty didn't just pop up out of nowhere. It's been around since the specie first decided there was more to life than being a mere ape.Just another Toot-Toot to white supremacy? And you mock my education? (I have to giggle.)

I've been to the third world. I've seen poor people. Actual, real, poor brown people.

They're actually pretty happy.

Maybe they're happy. But they still smell like ass.... Well. So do affluent Europeans, so no big deal.

Maybe they're happy. But they still smell like ass.... Well. So do affluent Europeans, so no big deal.

Third world cities smell much more interesting than ours.

Nothing quite like the smell of durian night markets.

I've been to the third world. I've seen poor people. Actual, real, poor brown people.

They're actually pretty happy.You've been to all 75 3rd World countries? Tijuana didn't have happy destitution. Everyone giggling in Darfur? DR of Congo? People that mock those in dire circumstances possess a bridling insecurity and immaturity. Comments like this make SF look like a comic book most of the time.

Just another Toot-Toot to white supremacy? And you mock my education? (I have to giggle.)
Yes.

The specie started out black, or at least much much darker with a really lot of body hair.

Speaking of white supremacy, what makes you imagine that it's impossible for me to be other than "white" pink-skinned?

Because I present myself as more "white-like" than non-whites can manage?

You're a real work of art.

Third world cities smell much more interesting than ours.

Nothing quite like the smell of durian night markets.

Nothing beats Bade Miyan's grilled meats behind the Taj Mahal hotel. Especially late at night!:p

http://www.margaretdeefholts.com/Mumbaifood.html

Tijuana didn't have happy destitution.

But the prostitution....

Yes.

The specie started out black, or at least much much darker with a really lot of body hair.

Speaking of white supremacy, what makes you imagine that it's impossible for me to be other than "white" pink-skinned?

Because I present myself as more "white-like" than non-whites can manage?

You're a real work of art.You're the typical redneck white power type that's all over the Net. Quite dull actually most of the time, amusing the other times. Every discussion has to revert to the caveman race issue. It castrates conversation and makes people look ridiculous. Non-whites are usually far more intelligent on most subjects in my experience. No dumbass shit kickin redneck white trash claims top spot on the supremacy ladder. HA! No way.:p

But the prostitution....Child prostitutes, teen girls with bruises and HIV, older women with nothing but searing pain in their eyes, yeah, real funny.
Hookers hate sex. It's for survival and money. Fucking fat white pigs isn't a turnon, even to a 7 year old child prostitute.

Hookers hate sex.

You don't find that funny?
I find it hilarious.

But then, who doesn't hate their job?


ps
I really like the alliteration. Hookers hate sex. Damn, you're sharp.

Roman,

I've been to the third world. I've seen poor people. Actual, real, poor brown people.

Yeah. The smell of open sewer trickling down the street is lovely.

But then, who doesn't hate their job?

I love my job.



Genji,

Tijuana didn't have happy destitution.

Tijuana is just south of the border and has this thing called 'the grass is always greener' syndrome.

Everyone giggling in Darfur?

Darfur's problems are not poverty but warfare.

DR of Congo?

Congo rhymes with Bongo.

People that mock those in dire circumstances possess a bridling insecurity and immaturity.

And people that fail to understand that the issue is not poverty in those 'dire circumstances' (by and large) possess an overweening hubris and presumptuousness.

Comments like this make SF look like a comic book most of the time.

A gay-bashing comic book?
Although. You know. You show your presumptuousness again.
Comic books aren't usually 'comic'. I guess some are. Archie and Veronica. Jughead.
Hmm.
I don't think there's many comic books that would ridicule the dirt poor though.
Do you know of any?

Child prostitutes, teen girls with bruises and HIV, older women with nothing but searing pain in their eyes, yeah, real funny.
Hookers hate sex. It's for survival and money. Fucking fat white pigs isn't a turnon, even to a 7 year old child prostitute.

Yeah. It's so much better to get some straight guy drunk and fuck him while he's passed out, right?

Roman,



Yeah. The smell of open sewer trickling down the street is lovely.



I love my job.



Genji,



Tijuana is just south of the border and has this thing called 'the grass is always greener' syndrome.



Darfur's problems are not poverty but warfare.



Congo rhymes with Bongo.



And people that fail to understand that the issue is not poverty in those 'dire circumstances' (by and large) possess an overweening hubris and presumptuousness.



A gay-bashing comic book?
Although. You know. You show your presumptuousness again.
Comic books aren't usually 'comic'. I guess some are. Archie and Veronica. Jughead.
Hmm.
I don't think there's many comic books that would ridicule the dirt poor though.
Do you know of any?



Yeah. It's so much better to get some straight guy drunk and fuck him while he's passed out, right?YEAH on that last one buttfuck!! Oh Yeah.....OHHHHHHhhhhhhh fuckin AAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaa. Deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep and .....Oh Yeah.
Whew. Thanx for the image!
Now I'm picturing you raping a child in the 3rd World........poverty and prostitution are SO fuckin funny aren't they! pervert.

Now I'm picturing you raping a child in the 3rd World........poverty and prostitution are SO fuckin funny aren't they!

I like how you didn't respond to the statement that poverty isn't the issue in their unhappiness.

As to me being a pervert... that was what YOU said about how YOU operate.
Forget?
You even invited Roman over to house to get drunk so you could fuck him while he was passed out. Remember?

Child prostitutes, teen girls with bruises and HIV, older women with nothing but searing pain in their eyes, yeah, real funny.
Hookers hate sex. It's for survival and money. Fucking fat white pigs isn't a turnon, even to a 7 year old child prostitute.

Theres prostitution in America too. Prostitution is the main way that most people have sex, right or wrong, most people use bribery to get laid, by offering gifts, nice dinner, etc. I guess the western form of prostitution is gift for sex, and I guess the only difference here is that at least in the west it's not children.

Child prostitution is sick to the extreme, because children don't know any better, the sad reality is, children all around the world, including in America, are treated like crap. If you've seen some of the neighborhoods some of our kids grow up in, with all the drugs, gangs, and the horrible state of our schools, if you understood what it would be like as a child to grow up in America in poverty, then you'd understand from this point of view, prostitution is better than selling crack, guns, or robbing people. You have to consider that some people are desperate, and some desperate people don't have any intellectual skills that matter, and their talents either don't matter or are not respected by society.

A lot of kids today, are forced to sell their body because it's the only thing they have worth anything. Thats our fault for treating each other like that, prostitution, just by making it illegal, does absolutely nothing to stop it, in fact it only makes the industry much more profitable.

Do you want an example? Sure, prostitution being illegal makes it illegal for minors to have sex with adults, but thats about it. What happens now is that adults prostitute and pimp adults, on a level where if you don't know how it works, it won't look anything like prostitution, it will look just like dating. Pimping is easier than ever, prostitution is easier than ever, and more popular than ever, so it's a bad example to use when trying to talk about poverty, as if only the poor are prostitutes, just about everyone gets pimped. The poor just get pimped physically.

HIV and AIDs has nothing to do with prostitution, I think HIV and AIDs spreads because of cheating and lying, and because people don't get tested and don't have sex properly. When you live in a third world country, you can't afford to go to a clinic to get tested every month or ever 6 months, and condoms might be harder to find, it's just not as easy.

In America, if you want a condom you can get them for free. In America you can get tested for free. If you have sex alot, sometimes your doctor automatically schedules a test for you. The end result is, HIV is not spreading because of sex, it's spreading amnog CERTAIN types of individuals, a select group who spreads all the diseases, and this group is the same group that cheats and lies and plays all the games. If you are with a person who lies and cheats in their relationship, is it really a surprise if this person brings you an STD? All that sneaking around, you can't really trust them to not bring you an STD.

so STDs spread not simply due to sex, or even prostitution, but due to the WAY the prostitution is run, and the way people choose to have sex, if people choose to do it in the most sneaky dishonest unintelligent way possible, theres a much greater chance of STD.

You're the typical redneck white power type that's all over the Net. Quite dull actually most of the time, amusing the other times. Every discussion has to revert to the caveman race issue. It castrates conversation and makes people look ridiculous. Non-whites are usually far more intelligent on most subjects in my experience. No dumbass shit kickin redneck white trash claims top spot on the supremacy ladder. HA! No way.:p
Okay. You've adequately established your bigot, intolerance and claim to elitism credentials.

But how does your circumstance in any way diminish my own -- real or imagined?

I like how you didn't respond to the statement that poverty isn't the issue in their unhappiness.

As to me being a pervert... that was what YOU said about how YOU operate.
Forget?
You even invited Roman over to house to get drunk so you could fuck him while he was passed out. Remember?In another thread, that you frantically had to slither to to find something to bash me, I was aiming for, and got, laughs in a sex thread. Peeling that up and dragging it over here, sticking it into a discussion about poverty shows your level of intellect.

I didn't respond to your quip about poverty isn't why they are unhappy?:confused: WTF does that mean? Poverty is having meager resources, poor healthcare, no shelter, little food.

Now rush back to another thread pervert and try try try to find something else out of context and try try try to make it look like it supports your bizarre position on the poor. Good Luck!:rolleyes:

Okay. You've adequately established your bigot, intolerance and claim to elitism credentials.

But how does your circumstance in any way diminish my own -- real or imagined?

The problem is, if you only see your skin color, it does not change the fact that you hate the human race. You are human first.

The problem is, if you only see your skin color, it does not change the fact that you hate the human race. You are human first.Well Said. To the Righties White is Might and the poor can rot. Not seeing past that is a sure sign of a fool.

In another thread, that you frantically had to slither to to find something to bash me,

Sltiher?
It's called memory.

I was aiming for, and got, laughs in a sex thread.

Ah. Like... like a comic book? (The funny kind.)

Peeling that up and dragging it over here, sticking it into a discussion about poverty shows your level of intellect.

And failing to comprehend that I was addressing the hypocrisy in your post from two directions with a single statement demonstrates your level of intellect.

I didn't respond to your quip about poverty isn't why they are unhappy? WTF does that mean? Poverty is having meager resources, poor healthcare, no shelter, little food.

Because there have been scientific studies that show that poverty and unhappiness are not as directly correlated as some might like to believe. You for instance.
Also, there has been direct anecdotal evidence from people who have actually been to third world countries which you discount because you're so well-informed sitting on your stool in Kansas...

You mentioned places where people are unhappy. I state that the reasons for their unhappiness are not directly related to poverty but to other, more important, issues.

The people in Darfur, for instance. The problem isn't that they're poor.
It's that they're being slaughtered and raped.
That's a bit more of a cause of unhappiness than being poor, don't you think?
Maybe?
Little bit?
Let us pretend for an instant that the people in Darfur were fabulously wealthy.
Let us imagine for a moment that they had solid gold toilet seats.
Ok? Picturing it in your mind's eye? (And for the sake of your frail homosexual mind, let's pretend that it's a woman on the toilet seat so that you won't go off thinking about Muslim with his pants around his ankles or anything...)
Got it?
Now.
These fabulously rich people are now being subjected to the same treatment as the poor people in Darfur.
They're being killed. They're being raped. They're being brutally beaten.

Are they still happy because they're rich?

Why not?
They're rich.
And you've already stated that the problem is poverty.
What's going on here???

Now rush back to another thread pervert and try try try to find something else out of context and try try try to make it look like it supports your bizarre position on the poor. Good Luck!

I find it funny that you believe that I'm rushing around trying to dig up dirt on your or something.

However, hopefully you now understand the context of my statement seeing as how you were too dense to catch it the first time?
Perchance?

...your bizarre position ...

And I have to add a postscript on this tactic.
"Bizarre."
You feel so normal and in tune with the mainstream in your lamenting of the oh so miserable poverty-stricken, yes?
Why. You can almost see yourself up on the stage. At a benefit concert. In Darfur. Helping those poor, poor people.
Noble Genji.
Helping the dirty, filthy poor.

And me?
I'm abnormal.
I should be ashamed.
I should be corrected.
I'm wrong because I don't go along with the group mentality which you exude and wallow in.
Yes?

To the Righties White is Might and the poor can rot.

Danger danger.
White and poor are two separate categories.
Why. Amazing as this might be to your addled mind.
White people can be and ARE poor too.
Wow.

The problem is, if you only see your skin color, it does not change the fact that you hate the human race. You are human first.
I understand Nature to have long ago invested somewhat more significance in competetive individuality and gender differentiation than in humanality for vanilla human sake.

Well Said. To the Righties White is Might and the poor can rot. Not seeing past that is a sure sign of a fool.
And you are.

The only way to help poor people, is to invest, through venture capital, and none of you have the money to do anything like that. At best you can do some type of micro-investment type of setup.
I totally agree.

Helping the poor is not the job of the poor, it's the job of the rich, people who are likely on this site arent millionaires with the type of extra money to help anyone but themselves and their families. I don't blame you if you don't help complete strangers.
Yes. There are other ways to help, though...

If you want to help the poor, forget about the people living in other countries, start by helping good people in your own community, then help good people in ghettos all accross this country start business by creating an investment fund for urban entrepreneurs. Thats how you help the poor.
Once again, I agree.

When these people become successful enough, they'll do the same thing for each other in their own community, and it will eventually spread to the third world. I think donating money is a waste of money, it's too inefficient to accomplish anything. I think right now, the poor need investment so they can start small businesses, and you can profit too if you play your cards right. We should be investors.
I'm glad I'm not the only one that thinks like that... :)

I've been designing a not-for-profit society to do just that...
Of course, I don't want to rely just on donations...
But a lot of the work consists of studying economics and accounting to have a more broad integrated understanding about opportunity cost... :cool:

Sltiher?
It's called memory.



Ah. Like... like a comic book? (The funny kind.)



And failing to comprehend that I was addressing the hypocrisy in your post from two directions with a single statement demonstrates your level of intellect.



Because there have been scientific studies that show that poverty and unhappiness are not as directly correlated as some might like to believe. You for instance.
Also, there has been direct anecdotal evidence from people who have actually been to third world countries which you discount because you're so well-informed sitting on your stool in Kansas...

You mentioned places where people are unhappy. I state that the reasons for their unhappiness are not directly related to poverty but to other, more important, issues.

The people in Darfur, for instance. The problem isn't that they're poor.
It's that they're being slaughtered and raped.
That's a bit more of a cause of unhappiness than being poor, don't you think?
Maybe?
Little bit?
Let us pretend for an instant that the people in Darfur were fabulously wealthy.
Let us imagine for a moment that they had solid gold toilet seats.
Ok? Picturing it in your mind's eye? (And for the sake of your frail homosexual mind, let's pretend that it's a woman on the toilet seat so that you won't go off thinking about Muslim with his pants around his ankles or anything...)
Got it?
Now.
These fabulously rich people are now being subjected to the same treatment as the poor people in Darfur.
They're being killed. They're being raped. They're being brutally beaten.

Are they still happy because they're rich?

Why not?
They're rich.
And you've already stated that the problem is poverty.
What's going on here???



I find it funny that you believe that I'm rushing around trying to dig up dirt on your or something.

However, hopefully you now understand the context of my statement seeing as how you were too dense to catch it the first time?
Perchance?



And I have to add a postscript on this tactic.
"Bizarre."
You feel so normal and in tune with the mainstream in your lamenting of the oh so miserable poverty-stricken, yes?
Why. You can almost see yourself up on the stage. At a benefit concert. In Darfur. Helping those poor, poor people.
Noble Genji.
Helping the dirty, filthy poor.

And me?
I'm abnormal.
I should be ashamed.
I should be corrected.
I'm wrong because I don't go along with the group mentality which you exude and wallow in.
Yes?



Danger danger.
White and poor are two separate categories.
Why. Amazing as this might be to your addled mind.
White people can be and ARE poor too.
Wow.Why I'm flattered you typed all this out fo little ol me!:p How did you know I was sitting on a stool??:confused:

I understand Nature to have long ago invested somewhat more significance in competetive individuality and gender differentiation than in humanality for vanilla human sake.I rest my case:D

Yes. Though I am poor in many people's eyes. Guilt comes when I think of how wasteful I can be when others are literally starving.As for the OP which got lost with white supremacist and gaybashing rants; Like I said, I could be less wasteful.
I also think the wealth of the world should ensure that starvation is extinct. We have more than enough money, we only need to apply it toward human need and not wars and space junkets.

Why I'm flattered you typed all this out fo little ol me!

Ah well.
I tried.
Actually. The post I typed to you is quite small.
But, you haven't been around long enough to know how voluminous a post I am able to produce, so I guess I forgive you.

But, you do realize that your refusal to answer the simple point I made is a concession?
I'm sure you do.

At least have the decency to admit that you erred in your sweeping statements about 'the poor'.

...and gaybashing rants;

And just so you know (although I doubt you'll believe me), I'm not 'gaybashing'. I was making a funny.
I wonder if I had not made this 'comic' statement if you would have been able to answer the simple point I made or if you still would have conceded the point as you did?
The world may never know.

Ah well.
I tried.
Actually. The post I typed to you is quite small.
But, you haven't been around long enough to know how voluminous a post I am able to produce, so I guess I forgive you.

But, you do realize that your refusal to answer the simple point I made is a concession?
I'm sure you do.

At least have the decency to admit that you erred in your sweeping statements about 'the poor'.I'm not clear about what I refused. You split the discussion away from poverty to...something about poor people in war are unhappy, because of war, not being dirt poor and that empathizing with the poor makes me weak or stupid or something. Hurry! I'm off in 20minutes!!!

Actually, it was you that confused the issue by bringing in situations such as Darfur as 'poor people being unhappy'.

Being poor is not, in itself, a cause of unhappiness.

and that empathizing with the poor makes me weak or stupid or something.

As to this, I was more just commenting on the tactics you were using. Categorizing yourself as normal and me, by implication, not normal.

I wonder if you're aware of the use of such tactics or if they come naturally to you?

I also wonder how you reconcile this with your homosexual nature as I'm sure you've been on the 'abnormal' end of this type of tactic many times.

Of course. That's another topic altogether, but the fact is that I don't really give a shit about the poor.

Actually, it was you that confused the issue by bringing in situations such as Darfur as 'poor people being unhappy'.

Being poor is not, in itself, a cause of unhappiness.True. Especially if you have never had material wealth, comforts, etc. I named places of extreme poverty to illustrate to some others that poverty isn't some big joke deserving of non-whites, which was Clearly Roman and GSpot's comments. I'm poor to many people I'm sure. A low end Ford, a 1 bedroom apt, 30k a year, no fancy clothes. To Rush or Hannity I'd be considered poor. But to a resident of sub-Saharan Africa I'm wealthy.

You don't find that funny?
I find it hilarious.

But then, who doesn't hate their job?


ps
I really like the alliteration. Hookers hate sex. Damn, you're sharp.
You're an spoiled idiot.

But again, spoiled idiots are often funny to read... :D

As to this, I was more just commenting on the tactics you were using. Categorizing yourself as normal and me, by implication, not normal.

I wonder if you're aware of the use of such tactics or if they come naturally to you?

I also wonder how you reconcile this with your homosexual nature as I'm sure you've been on the 'abnormal' end of this type of tactic many times.

Of course. That's another topic altogether, but the fact is that I don't really give a shit about the poor.Yes, homosexuality isn't common. I won't apologize though. It's a lonely life, especially as you age. But bash away, been getting it since 6th grade or so.

Why are you in the thread if you disregard the poor? To attack posters interested in the topic?

DAMN you type fast!

Sorry I got nasty. I meant some of it, just not the tone. I'm justa frustrated, lonely, fag janitor, sitting on a stool. What can I say?

I love my job.
But you have a nice job. Not many people have nice jobs... ;)

And people that fail to understand that the issue is not poverty in those 'dire circumstances' (by and large) possess an overweening hubris and presumptuousness.
Wha's the issue, then?

I also wonder how you reconcile this with your homosexual nature as I'm sure you've been on the 'abnormal' end of this type of tactic many times.

Hmm.
And. Before you take offense...
What I meant by 'homosexual nature' and reconciliation is wondering if you feel guilt over using such tactics when they've been used against you so often in the past.
I'm not calling you abnormal or even making a statement on your sexual preference.
A thing you should understand is that I find the fact of your homosexuality so unimportant that I have no problem making light of it.
I don't know what you think of that. But that's how it is.

In the same way, I don't care about the poor in third world countries.
I have my own problems.

True. Especially if you have never had material wealth, comforts, etc. I named places of extreme poverty to illustrate to some others that poverty isn't some big joke deserving of non-whites, which was Clearly Roman and GSpot's comments. I'm poor to many people I'm sure. A low end Ford, a 1 bedroom apt, 30k a year, no fancy clothes. To Rush or Hannity I'd be considered poor. But to a resident of sub-Saharan Africa I'm wealthy

Exactly.
See? That was easy.

But, the thing is that the whole notion of wealth and poverty is somewhat alien to reality. The modern age is very artificial.
Hunter-gatherer tribes could easily be considered to be some of the happiest people on Earth.

Child prostitution is sick to the extreme, because children don't know any better, the sad reality is, children all around the world, including in America, are treated like crap.
True. Children's rights are like... 20 years old, at the most? And the school system does not treat them much better either...

And in Canada we have "social services", but they are nearly completely useless and nearly dangerous. I've heard of normal parents who got their children taken away because someone called on them when their child was teething. No questions asked. Then I heard of people that smoke crack and the social services won't take the children away. Worse then that, they discriminate against young parents. Canada is pretty screwed up.... :eek:

Yes, homosexuality isn't common. I won't apologize though. It's a lonely life, especially as you age. But bash away, been getting it since 6th grade or so.

See? You did misunderstand.
I wasn't calling you abnormal. Mrely commenting on your tactics...
Wondering if you saw how you were using the very tactics used against you since the 6th grade.

Why are you in the thread if you disregard the poor? To attack posters interested in the topic?

To point out hypocrisy whereever I find it.
Muaha!

Also. The topic is Do You Feel Guilt Over The Poor.
I don't.
So I answered.

DAMN you type fast!

100 words a minute.


Truthseeker,

But you have a nice job. Not many people have nice jobs...

Actually, it's not the job but the attitude.
Plenty of people have my exact job and can't stand it.
They only do it for the money.

Wha's the issue, then?

Being raped and murdered, maybe?
That's the answer for the Darfur region.
But there are innumerable other causes of unhappiness in the world.
Poverty can be an exacerbating condition. And there are cases of extreme poverty where life isn't even possible.
But, on the whole, people need more than poverty to be unhappy.

Being poor is not, in itself, a cause of unhappiness.
So... if you were starving to death you would still be happy?

Actually, it's not the job but the attitude.
Plenty of people have my exact job and can't stand it.
They only do it for the money.
Huuuum... I agree...
But can you really be happy when you are mining coal? :bugeye:

Being raped and murdered, maybe?
That's the answer for the Darfur region.
But there are innumerable other causes of unhappiness in the world.
Poverty can be an exacerbating condition. And there are cases of extreme poverty where life isn't even possible.
But, on the whole, people need more than poverty to be unhappy.
But poverty cause death, sickness, insecurity, instability. How can you be happy if you are always anxious about whether you are going to eat or feed your baby tomorrow? How can you be happy if you are sick because you don't have clean water? Isn't it obvious there is a causal relationship between poverty and unhappiness?

I rest my case:D
Of course you do.

It's the nature of your own poverty.

So... if you were starving to death you would still be happy?

That would be the 'extreme poverty' which I mentioned.
However, there are ways to be happy even in such a situation. Humans are capable of great sacrifices given the proper motivation.

But can you really be happy when you are mining coal?

Yes.
Do you believe coal miners are incapable of happiness?
Why?

But poverty cause death, sickness, insecurity, instability.

Lots of things cause these things.

How can you be happy if you are always anxious about whether you are going to eat or feed your baby tomorrow? How can you be happy if you are sick because you don't have clean water?

Why ask how?
It happens.
People are capable of happiness in the most dire of situations.

Isn't it obvious there is a causal relationship between poverty and unhappiness?

It might be obvious, but it's not necessarily true.
I've mentioned scientific studies that indicate that poverty doesn't equate to unhappiness.
Roman has mentioned anecdotal evidence of first-hand experience of happy people in third world countries.
You, yourself, were raised in a bit of a poverty stricken environment, yes? Was there no happiness in your past? Really?

That would be the 'extreme poverty' which I mentioned.
However, there are ways to be happy even in such a situation. Humans are capable of great sacrifices given the proper motivation.
Such as...

Yes.
Do you believe coal miners are incapable of happiness?
Why?
Maybe because they cannot breath properly, cannot sleep properly because of that and are dying of lung disease....?

Lots of things cause these things.
True. But poverty is the main one. There are around 3 billion people living in poverty today. At least half of the world's population...

But again, a lot of americans are way richer and still unsatified. That's because they have a ridiculously high standard of living. The difference is that poor people can barely survive and the NEED more money just to survive.

Why ask how?
It happens.
People are capable of happiness in the most dire of situations.
True. But only for so long....

I'm capable of being happy when my child is screaming. But after 15 hours of screaming, it starts getting kinda hard, ya know? :rolleyes:


It might be obvious, but it's not necessarily true.
I've mentioned scientific studies that indicate that poverty doesn't equate to unhappiness.
Ok, let's see those...

Roman has mentioned anecdotal evidence of first-hand experience of happy people in third world countries.
You always criticize anecdotal evidence. Why not now? Because it "proves" your point of view? :rolleyes:

You, yourself, were raised in a bit of a poverty stricken environment, yes? Was there no happiness in your past? Really?
Around me, yes. But not with me.

True. Especially if you have never had material wealth, comforts, etc. I named places of extreme poverty to illustrate to some others that poverty isn't some big joke deserving of non-whites, which was Clearly Roman and GSpot's comments. I'm poor to many people I'm sure. A low end Ford, a 1 bedroom apt, 30k a year, no fancy clothes. To Rush or Hannity I'd be considered poor. But to a resident of sub-Saharan Africa I'm wealthy.

To a resident of sub-Saharan Africa you live like a king.

Such as...

Religion is a prime example, but there are others.

Maybe because they cannot breath properly, cannot sleep properly because of that and are dying of lung disease....?

Did you know that in Catalhoyuk, one of the earliest cities on Earth, the dead breathed so much smoke from their fires burning in their houses that carbon deposits are found on their ribs?

Suffering does not mean that happiness is impossible.

True. But poverty is the main one. There are around 3 billion people living in poverty today. At least half of the world's population...

If that were the case, then we wouldn't have to worry about overpopulation, would we?
They are obviously not in that 'extreme poverty' which leads to starvation and death. Or they would die. And the population of the world would diminish quite rapidly.

The difference is that poor people can barely survive and the NEED more money just to survive.

No.
If they needed more money to survive, and didn't get the money, then they would die. But, they're barely surviving, so they have enough money (or resources. Speaking of money is misleading). Barely.

True. But only for so long....

Do you think that anyone is happy all the time?
Do you think that it would be a good thing to be happy all the time?

Ok, let's see those...

Don't have the references, I'm afraid.
I assure you that they exist though. From reputable journals as well.

You always criticize anecdotal evidence. Why not now? Because it "proves" your point of view?

It doesn't prove anything.
But, strictly speaking, it's not really anecdotal. Roman has visited a number of third world nations. He has seen first hand that the poor people in these countries are capable of being happy.
I'm sure you have seen the poor in your experience have moments of happiness.
I have as well (the poor in America.)

Being poor ain't that bad.
There's lots worse things in the world than being poor.

More anecdotal evidence:

When I was in Indonesia with my family, we paid local men to paddle us upstream into the rainforest, as journey by dugout canoe was the only way to get there. The journey was all day, the canoes so loaded with gear (and us) that we rode about an inch above the water line.

All day these guys paddled, never stopping. They had a meager lunch of rice, clove cigarettes and fish they caught, some fruit, maybe a piece of lean chicken. They were lean. I could see their ribs.

But they laughed and joked, and even though we could hardly understand each other, they were friendly. Polite. Happy.

And you know how much we paid them?
It was a lot less than cab fare from the airport to our house.

[edit]
I've seen quite a lot of people that are "in poverty" and "poor", or at least, have far less than I do, or ever will. But you know what? They were always happy and warm. More friendly than most Americans. Certainly not the type of people you would call "poor, huddled masses." I often wonder why Americans, and Westerners in general, are so unhappy with themselves and their life. Money is not happiness, not at all. From personal experience, I find that money and happiness are only weakly correlated. Money tends to remove us from the very things that makes human, the experiences that teach us what real sorrow is and real happiness is.

Hell, my family was poor. When I was a kid, when my dad was still in grad school, we were below the poverty line. Family of four on a grad student's salary? Could have gone for welfare (we didn't). Despite our "poverty," we were happy. My dad hunted when game was in season. We lived semi-subsistence. Learned to share. Never went hungry, but certainly learned to go without. Most of me is made of moose and bou.

But does that mean I was unhappy and my family needed the intervention of people like TruthSeeker?
Hardly.

More anecdotal evidence:

When I was in Indonesia with my family, we paid local men to paddle us upstream into the rainforest, as journey by dugout canoe was the only way to get there. The journey was all day, the canoes so loaded with gear (and us) that we rode about an inch above the water line.

All day these guys paddled, never stopping. They had a meager lunch of rice, clove cigarettes and fish they caught, some fruit, maybe a piece of lean chicken. They were lean. I could see their ribs.

But they laughed and joked, and even though we could hardly understand each other, they were friendly. Polite. Happy.

And you know how much we paid them?
It was a lot less than cab fare from the airport to our house.
Of course. That's because they have simple lives. There's a big difference between being part of a tribe living in a forest and being in the middle of a desert, with no food nor water.

There's lots worse things in the world than being poor.
Like what?

Maybe you need a taste of it yourself?

Of course. That's because they have simple lives. There's a big difference between being part of a tribe living in a forest and being in the middle of a desert, with no food nor water.

They weren't a tribe in the forest. I'm fairly certain most of them watched TV. I bet a few of them owned a set.

You know the funniest thing about the 3rd world I've seen? The ubiquity of television.

Back to the thread...

Found this one while researching articles of incorporation for not-for-profits....
http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm

You're from Brazil. They've got tons of poor people there. Do you know any of them, are you too busy living in your ivory tower to deal with indios?

They weren't a tribe in the forest. I'm fairly certain most of them watched TV. I bet a few of them owned a set.

You know the funniest thing about the 3rd world I've seen? The ubiquity of television.
Doesn't sound like they watched TV...

But since you are saying that, let me give you a little taste of Brazil...

We love beaches. We have some of the most beautiful beaches on the planet. And we have a great 2-week-long party called Carnaval. We are generally a happy people. However, we live in poverty and we often experience happiness. Still, if you go to Brazil, that's what youa re going to see- happiness. Specially in more toursity areas. You can expect to see it in the beaches... But wait till you go to the favelas and find the drugs and the druglords, on top of famine....

You're from Brazil. They've got tons of poor people there. Do you know any of them, are you too busy living in your ivory tower to deal with indios?
I guess I read your mind.....;)

Like what?

You keep asking the same question and I keep answering the same answer.
Being murdered and raped?
Tortured?
Watching your family and loved ones being murdered, raped, tortured?

Maybe you need a taste of it yourself?

A taste of what? Poverty?
Oh. I've been poor. Believe that.
For the vast majority of my life I ate, on average, once every other day. I survived by the skin of my teeth.
Why?
Because I didn't give a shit. Working sucked, so I worked as little as I could get away with.
Going hungry was a lot easier than putting up with a job I didn't want.

Don't go making these snap judgements that people have no experience.
Perhaps it is you that needs to suffer some poverty. You've already stated that it was never you living in poverty, but rather those around you.
Ever stop and think that it looks worse than it really is?

Back to the thread...

Oh.
So.
All these posts were about something else entirely?
Off topic?
Fuck you.

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2006/10/30/8391806/index.htm

Whatever...

My point is that those things you talk about, like murder, rape and so on, happen way less then poverty. Billions of people are poor everday. Billions of people are not killed everyday.

Feeling guilting for having money,

is like feeling guilting for being white.

My point is that those things you talk about, like murder, rape and so on, happen way less then poverty. Billions of people are poor everday. Billions of people are not killed everyday.

Yeah. And that's my point.
Billions are poor everyday. Big fucking whooptey shit.
Lots worse things out there than being poor.

You have a quantity over quality argument.

Here. You say that about half the world's population is poor?
Well. That makes about half the world's population not poor.
The world's number one problem, therefore, is there are too many people that are not poor.
The numbers don't lie.

I say, stop feeling bad for them, and go out and help them. Bitching is worthless, if you think change is needed, go out and work for that change.

I say, stop feeling bad for them, and go out and help them. Bitching is worthless, if you think change is needed, go out and work for that change.Best post in the thread.

. . . more to life than being a mere ape.
I am not sure I entirely like the tone of this remark.

All humans are apes, and we get the best out of life by being true to our basic ape instincts. When there is excess competition for the available resources, we need to kill those most distantly related to our own family group, and the weakest among our own number. We live in societies that have lost respect for the Warrior, and for strength, ferocity and courage as the greatest of human virtues.

I say, stop feeling bad for them, and go out and help them. Bitching is worthless, if you think change is needed, go out and work for that change.

amen to that

however i dont feel guilty so i won't be

All humans are apes, and we get the best out of life by being true to our basic ape instincts. The comparison is more specific than that. Of all the mammals, only two behave in this way: Humans and chimpanzees, who are more closely related to each other than to any other species. Even bonobos, who until recently were thought to be merely a subspecies of chimp, are peaceful among their own kind, as are the other apes: gorillas, gibbons and orangutans.

This behavior in chimpanzees had never been observed and was only discovered in my lifetime by the famous Jane Goodall, who lived among them and traveled with them. They make raids into other chimpanzee clans' territories, pick off lone individuals and kill them.

Until Goodall, it was assumed that humans are the only animals who routinely kill each other. It's still not clear whether humans and chimpanzees developed this behavior independently--convergent evolution caused by living in similar conditions--or inherited it from our common ancestor around ten million years ago. And no one can guess why bonobos, whose environment is not much different from that of chimpanzees, did not develop it.When there is excess competition for the available resources, we need to kill those most distantly related to our own family group, and the weakest among our own number.Goodall had lived among the chimps for years and established family trees. To her shock, the ones they killed were in fact quite often their own kin, chimps with whom they grew up and lived for many years, who eventually went off to form a new clan to avoid crowding. So this is a behavior we don't share with any other ape.We live in societies that have lost respect for the Warrior, and for strength, ferocity and courage as the greatest of human virtues.The mythic figure you're talking about is the Soldier, the man who fights aggressively, without honor, following orders, attacking and killing anyone he's told to kill. A Warrior is one who fights defensively, protecting those who, by virtue of age, infirmity, specialized training or any other reason, cannot effectively defend themselves. The Warrior is a man of honor who never initiates the use of deadly force.

Ferocity is not one of the "greatest of human virtues." It is in fact one of the most evil of human weaknesses. In my opinion the only other instinct we retain that is as evil and ruinous is revenge, and when they work together as they often do they accomplish nothing except to initiate a cycle of mindless reciprocal violence. As civilization advances and the size of our "pack" increases while the packs themselves learn to coexist in harmony and cooperation for the good of all, it becomes less and less likely that any of us will ever encounter a member of another pack that warrants hostile treatment. So ferocity is a vestigial trait that has no use and causes behavior that threatens the stability of civilization.

We have almost reached the pinnacle of civilization. Humanity is divided into a very small number of very large packs. The next union will surely result in a single worldwide pack. At this point ferocity will be recognized by all as an anachronism. Many of us can see this already.

Unfortunately the political systems we inherited from times gone by still reward ferocity in the competition for leadership, so our leaders tend to be throwbacks to the Stone Age who exhort us to resolve crises with violence. America's current leader would be much better suited to a pack of chimpanzees. Not only does he have the temperament for it, but also the communication skills.

Jane Goodall's research:
washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/style/longterm/books/chap1/demonicmales.htm

We have almost reached the pinnacle of civilization. Humanity is divided into a very small number of very large packs. The next union will surely result in a single worldwide pack. At this point ferocity will be recognized by all as an anachronism. Many of us can see this already.

With all of the solid, irrefutable evidence to the contrary, how can you hold to that fairy tale or pipedream? Is this just your own personal "religious" belief, where there's no evidence for such a belief ...only your own faith?

Check the violent crime stats in any major city in the USA and you'll find that as the population density increases, the RATE of violent crime increases. So, based on that alone, how can you project exactly what's happening NOW, to some pipedream of peace and goodwill to all???

Baron Max

Somehow I did not think you were going to be in complete agreement with me, Fraggle!

I do not know why you tell me I am describing a "mythic" figure. Healthy societies have honoured the Warrior throughout history. The virtues, above all of courage and comradeship, which are most enhanced in the Warrior class are part of what being human, at its best, embraces. If you have never felt the tangy bloody taste of danger and excitement in your mouth, and felt the adrenaline pump through your veins anaesthetizing against both fear and pain, then you have not properly lived.

When a society ceases to honour the Warrior, only the element of violence in human behaviour persists, disruptive and undirected. Today in Western society we see a feminization of values; the triumph of unlimited pity and the fear of death. We see wretched unhealthy babies, sick and deformed, kept miserably alive by medical treatment that it will take the productive output of a dozen healthy beings to pay for. Such a society grows as sick and deformed itself.

Inter-tribal battle long kept the populations of many parts of the world within the limits afforded by resources. Parts of Africa which were close to being the Garden of Eden a hundred years ago, luxurient in growth, now look like semi-desert. The White Man (the outsider) imposed pacification. Without war, the population exploded and brought poverty. Without war, men were deprived on the exhilaration of battle.

Saul hath killed his thousands,
And David hath killed his tens of thousands.
I Samuel 18:7.

Inter-tribal battle long kept the populations of many parts of the world within the limits afforded by resources. Parts of Africa which were close to being the Garden of Eden a hundred years ago, luxurient in growth, now look like semi-desert. The White Man (the outsider) imposed pacification. Without war, the population exploded and brought poverty. Without war, men were deprived on the exhilaration of battle.

Erm, exactly what parts of Africa haven't been in White Man induced conflict for the past half century? And conflict for millenia before that?

Questions not understood.

Your reasoning is something like: Africans were at war, which made Africa an eden. Then it was pacified, making it suck. Have you ever picked up a newspaper? What part of Africa is without strife?
The whole continent has been mired in bloodshed and ceaseless war since the colonial powers pulled out.

And the conflict isn't helping anyone.

If you calculate daily caloric intake from wealth levels, you find that during periods of war, Africa is the least eden-like. It is actually "hellish".

The whole continent has been mired in bloodshed and ceaseless war since the colonial powers pulled out.
This is simply untrue. Many countries suffer from banditry and occasional rioting, but populations do not quadruple (and more) during periods of inter-tribal warfare.

The White Man's superiority in weaponry made battle unequal and led to the undermining of noble and brave warrior traditions that had persisted for many centuries. Since the White Man departed, it has been the State that has possessed the White Man's weapons and, since the battle remains unequal, it has usually been possible to deter warfare.

Take a country like Malawi. The population grew when the nation (as Nyasaland) was under British control, but the country was still lush and bountiful when the British left. Now thirteen million people are turning into a wilderness what was once a Garden of Eden for two or three million. The elderly recall the golden times of their youth when the living was easy. The quality of life now is far below that experienced in the days of tribal warfare before the White Man came. The self-esteem enjoyed by the warrior who had proved himself in battle is replaced by the weary hopelessness of the scavenger.