I don't know about you, but I'm getting the most creepy far-away feeling about my country that I have ever had. I don't feel alone about that, I sense it among certain fellow Americans, among Czechs or Spaniards, or Arabs I've lived around in their "proper" expected home countries. I was born a proud American, but I don't go for all that exceptionalist xenophobic world rampage crap anymore. I want to enjoy my life, cruise the planet, have some laughs, not bother anyone else, and not have them bother me. This hyperpower juggernaut just doesn't appeal to me any more.

But the American Glory Train is barreling down the tracks with gathering smoke and fury, the bunting is flying everywhere, everybody's all excited, and I just want to jump off before things start moving too fast, and I break my legs landing, or the whole Domination Express leaves the tracks and heads majestically over the brink. One thing is for sure, if I ever get off this thing alive, if I don't get stuck in the hatch with a hundred others trying to jump, then I swear I'll never fall for that "We're the most Badass Train" shit ever again.

So the point is, maybe a lot of us are outgrowing the need to feel "special" by virtue of membership in a country-club or in a club-country. Perhaps we humans are becoming sufficiently socially evolved (well, some of us) to go out into the larger world as symbiotic individuals, ready to flash the World Citizen passport- "Beat THAT, yooo stupide Americain": Wherever I go, I was born here. Right here on my home planet.

Now, beyond personal feelings and fantasies, corporations are way out ahead of us. Probably because they have been granted far more mobility and freedoms than people, and without all the baggage. If you took the largest 20 organizations on Earth, I would guess that less than half of them would be governments. If you took the largest 20 corporations on Earth, I would guess 15 are multinational. So the nation-state is no longer Sovereign of the Seas anyway. So who are we kidding?

Dual citizenship has been my first goal in at least having some kind of escape hatch if the USA starts to roll over. The last time I worked in Europe, it took 6 months to get resident work authorization. But now, we can hopefully hit the ground running, almost anywhere in the EU, if it comes time to bail. From my perspective, the capability of slipping the surly bonds of native nation-state feels like Sweet Freedom. Which I feel not a little guilty about, considering that I did not chance to be born Somali, and through no effort of my own. Knowing what I know from here, or what I imagine knowing from a Somali perspective, well I'd be pissed to be pigeonholed in Somalia. And from thence, the realization hits that we are billions of prisoners of artificial nationalities, and it would be so much better if we could all just mingle.

That's right. Give me one good reason why we shouldn't, I'll shut up for now.

The thing that bothers me about the globalization, no-borders movement is that one world will inevitably lead to one government. The problem with the USA is that it's gotten too damn big. Big governments have too much power. If you don't like what the gigantic United States government is doing to the world (and United States culture, for that matter), how happy will you be with a One World government and a One World culture? Where are you going to go when you get simply bored, much less exasperated?

I'd be much happier if the world were fragmented into about a thousand tiny nation-states. None would have enough money, military might, or cultural influence to do too much harm to the others. And if we don't like where we are, it would be a day's drive to the next place.

Are you sure you're not mistaking the misrule of one administration for the trend of an entire nation?

Once in khaki suits,
Ah, gee we looked swell
Full of that yankee doodle dee dum!
Half a million boots went sloggin' through hell
And I was the kid with the drum!
Oh, say don't you remember?
They called me Al.
It was Al all the time.
Say, don't you remember?
I'm your pal.
Buddy, can you spare a dime?

Fraguel & Spy:

That's all going to be over in our lifetimes. When all bets are completely off, and it's every man for himself, we're going to start looking each other in the eye again, and like never before.

Once i built a railroad, made it run
Made it race against time
Once i built a rairoad, now it's done
Brother can you spare a dime?
Once i built a tower to the sun
Brick and rivet and lime
Once i built a tower, now it's done
Brother can you spare a dime?

Please try (and put a little effort in) visualizing six+ billion nation-states, all proclaiming:Out of the night that covers me,
Black as the Pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul
In the fell clutch of circumstances
I have not winced nor cried aloud.
Under the bludgeonings of change
My head is bloody, but unbowed.
Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the Horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the year
Finds, and shall find, me unafraid.
It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate:

I am the captain of my soul

It doesn't take up any more space, & that's where we come together, because there is nothing we can create, or grow, or do, that belongs to anyone else. There is no overlap in the equity of living. Every overlord is a liar. Time, evolution, and technology are swiftly bringing the Moment to call the Bluff.

Sadly, as much as I would love equality of power around the world and coexistance between nations, it all comes down to our animal behavoir. Until we can defeat and supress our dark urges for power and control over others, it will never happen. We would need a second reiniscance and a complete change of thinking as humans.

"We would need a second reiniscance"

Exactly. A renaissance is long overdue, considering the acceleration of history and communications, and how much we've been through since the last one. Lately we've been stagnating. One good slap, and we'll start a New Day. So crack that whip: Give that bitch a slap! Scream at yo momma! Breathe in some air. Live! It will drive us on, and you can count on that.

Wouldn't the development of the Internet be a second Renaissance?

P2P keeps improving. Maybe someday we'll be sharing more than just digital files. Whoo, then the RIAA would be joined by every other monetary concern in trying to squelch it. I wonder if they will be able to. So far, the sharing continues to ever unprecedented levels despite the RIAA's efforts.

I know what you mean hype.

As for me, I'll stay with the sinking ship. Help people learn to swim.

My temporary retirement is about to end(running out of $). I'll have to start some gainful employment soon. It takes funds to act the jetsetter, I'll be a caveman.

A second renaissance

Has to occur when society has reached imaginable depths and makes resurgence by a better of society. Has that happened? Not yet, the US is slowly going down the road of the Roman Empire, we aren’t even close to the lights of Florence yet. If you look at it the
“American enlightenment” period of American history had already passed in the 60-70’s and was abruptly ended by Reagan. America will most likely not be the place of resurgence anyways, the world is moving away from the dominant West into the East. America will decline in importance and will be bogged down by it’s own “that exceptionalist xenophobic world rampage crap”. Most Empires simply self-cannibalize themselves into irrelevancy and collapse. The trend of American society is towards more and more entertainment, and is becoming very anti-intellectual. When you have shows like Entertainment tonight competing with NBC’s nightly news for instance something is wrong. Americans don’t care or want to know about the problems that they face, they want an outlet, always an outlet. Americans know they are “the best” and why bother? I have dual citizen and it’s great, but I do feel that one world would be better. But that is not likely in my lifetime nor yours.

Give me one good reason why we shouldn't

Because we can’t, even communism demands a uniform culture.

Not yet, the US is slowly going down the road of the Roman Empire

A good analogy. However, Rome's Legoins, tactics, and and overall way of fighting had all been outdated and obselete by the time their empire had collapsed. It was painfully obvious to everyone that Rome was in a declined and weakened position. The U.S., on the other hand, still weilds the power of military might. The latter days of the Roman Republic did not. But I do fear a similar situation sometime in the future for the U.S. If corruption rears its ugly head in my country(though it already has to a point), it will rot from the inside, just like Rome. And we all know what happened when Rome collapsed: Complete power vacum.

We'll all know when America's time is over. I do wonder what it will be like after that, though.

Come now Hype,

You should be afraid of China, stop picking on the US. At least you can surf this site, view anti-American Material and have your own beliefs. Me thinks you have it Too good.

China is not setting the Mideast afire.

You should be afraid of China,

Only America has to fear China, the world loves China right now. Thanks to her hot economy commodity prices are at all time highs, and many third world economies are having a boon. China has no intention for expansion outside her borders (and no legally Taiwan is not outside her borders). China unlike the US is intelligent, instead of threatening nations will military actions she monopolizes their trade and then they become their vassal. That’s the way to do business.

None would have enough money, military might, or cultural influence to do too much harm to the others.

How frighteningly optimistic. I'm sorry but that is just silly. As long as there are humans there will be war, unless what it means to be human fundamentally changes. EDIT (or I suppose if everyone is powerful enough to be so goddamned scared of fucking with anyone else that they won't if you follow)

People are individuals, duh... so as a consequence, what they value is subjective. If someone values your resources more than your morals and there is no effective governing power and they are stronger than you, your optimism is moot as you will be dead.

If they didn't have money or might, some countries would spend all they have to build swords or guns or whatever the hell they could to conquer the country next door and kill or enslave the folks there such that they can have more. More more more more more. The more you try to force people to value what you think they should value, the more likely you are to be killed by those people unless you have a means to ensure your safety such as a powerful government.

Wake the fuck up.

Although it is unlikely, is it perhaps possible that we have actually reached a state in which collapse is impossible? We have seen empires decline in the past over and over, but that was before industrialization, the computer age, and capitalism. We now have the power of mass media, global military power, and machines that can suck resources instantly from the earth. As Orwell suggests, the more advanced a state becomes, the more likely it is to stultify long-term change. Since the US is based soley on the novelty of capitalism, there is no long-term planning and no long-term thoughts, one fading out into the other with no real change taking place. With more widespread rights than we've had in the past, it is possible for ideas and improvements to be more easily implimented to adjust to any possible situation (notice the various civil-rights movements, cultural-transformations, urban-shifts, trends) without causing mass chaos. As long as a market can provide endless consumption, nothing else would be possible.

Dual citizenship has been my first goal in at least having some kind of escape hatch if the USA starts to roll over. The last time I worked in Europe, it took 6 months to get resident work authorization. But now, we can hopefully hit the ground running, almost anywhere in the EU, if it comes time to bail. From my perspective, the capability of slipping the surly bonds of native nation-state feels like Sweet Freedom.

Good for you, Hype. When the shit hits the fan you and Bill Gates can bail out and leave the rest of us to suck on it.

We are going to need everybody with sufficient brains, balls and ovaries to join le resistance - in my opinion a true patriot would stay right here and fight. Some will take to the hills with their shootin' irons, some will stand with their neighbors to keep them from being deported or killed, some will go to jail rather than serve fascism, and some will be dissident as long as possible - and pay the price.

I ask you; where would the Czech people be right now if Havel had bailed in 1968? Where would the Poles be if Walesa had bailed in 1976? Where would India be if Gandhi had stayed in South Africa and behaved himself in 1913?

I'm not suggesting that you are a potential revolutionary leader, but people like Havel and Walesa needed all the support they could get - and a future American dissident leader will need support, too, if she/he is not to be immediately silenced. It is up to citizens like us to stay our own course and "pledge our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor".

How about it?

China is not setting the Mideast afire.

Only America has to fear China, the world loves China right now.

If the US goes the way of the Romans, and China emerges as the lone superpower, let's see how long such a love affair will last when inevitably China starts asserting Pax Sino on the rest of the world.

What's so noble about being a pessimist and fleeing the scene when the heat gets intense? Lack of funds is no excuse for giving up hope. Get busy making more money Hype. Sounds like your personal finances are affecting your better judgement. You have it better than you realize.

If the US goes the way of the Romans, and China emerges as the lone superpower, let's see how long such a love affair will last when inevitably China starts asserting Pax Sino on the rest of the world.

I doubt that China would be able to enforce “Pax Sino” because I see a much more multi-polar world in the future. The US decline will be slow; I don’t see it being quick. What we are seeing is not the emergence of another hegemonic power; what we are seeing here is the ascension of many powers at once, from China to India, and the decline of others like the US and Russia. The US will be a factor in the world for a long time to come but she won’t necessarily be “the” factor. Also China has never had a history of expansionism like any European power; frankly she was the first to give up. What the Chinese do is use their greatest asset being their market, and monopolize the nations trade to the point where they are dependant on her, otherwise vassal states. The US is already on that road with the Chinese, and really it is only of the US’ doing.

Te Jen:

"pledge our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor... How about it?"

Yeah, OK. But I would prefer we become sufficiently socially adjusted not only to thrive throughout the world, but to communicate, relate and transact with everyone in the same way everywhere. Each of us who is not an abject sociopath has learned to function well within small groups by not screwing over those who are profoundly in our lives. In an integrating world, guess what happens: More people- and more distant people- with the widest range of attributes, come into our lives. Wesmorris, for a convenient example, has some difficulty in playing nicely with others here on the boards, and is often angered by the simple premise that the vast majority of people have good intentions:

"People are individuals, duh... so as a consequence, what they value is subjective. If someone values your resources more than your morals and there is no effective governing power and they are stronger than you, your optimism is moot as you will be dead."

As he and many others unfortunately come to misunderstand the world, if Big Brother isn't watching, see what you can get away with- Everyone else will try to get the better of you, so it's only fair. This mindset cannot comfortably confront itself, especially in the present American right-wing context, because this collectivist world view (that only government provides fair play) actually shares in its global application the same core as the Soviet communist and fascist perspectives. Those under the spell will have trouble reading this carefully enough to understand I did not just label them communists or fascists. America is rotting out in its own unique, big and fast way. Social Darwinism is an example of the flawed view underlying the largest macrosocial malaises of our time. Some see this, some don't.

Threats and shows of lethal force do not contol healthy human relationships, not in your house, and not between partners cooperating globally. Evolving from tribalism to nationalism to globalism (clumsy term the last, but I don't have time for better now) we are progressively applying positive reciprocity on a wider scale.

Nationality, as a badge entitling an individual to certain rights and priveleges is a corrupt concept- On any scale. Consider 3 children in one family, born in 3 vastly different countries, accordingly treating each other with greater prejudice than the most eggregious crimes of racism within any one culture. Identical tension causes upheaval that takes down the most privileged equally well with the underclass. The powerul actually aren't, because the Central Power that authority worshipers trust so unquestionably is having more trouble every year keeping up with what technology is doing borders on maps and in minds. So little Johnny gets to eat well at the table, but his sister Suzie picks through the garbage, while her older brother Jimmy has an entirely differne life in the same (obviously dysfuctional) family- which is exceedingly rare at the microsocial scale, but the norm on the macro. This is our status quo. But it's not workable as the world integrates, and the times we live in will bring misery not only to the underpriveleged in the world. Healthy adjustments are going to become imperative, or new modes of conflict will make humanity a very unhappy family.

Looking back in time, human contacts, relationships, and understanding were more severely limited by distances, races, cultures, and such things. Now (and looking forward in time) the limitations are evaporating. Asking "how can you abandon you Homeland?" makes no sense, if you understand it is a personal global annexation, not to dominate, but to function. I feel at home in several countries, and I think it is reasonable to continue to expand my personal homeland. To nationalists, I'm already off the reservation before I pack my bags.

And quickly on another aspect 15/19 brought up:

"Lack of funds is no excuse for giving up hope. Get busy making more money Hype. Sounds like your personal finances are affecting your better judgement. You have it better than you realize."

The USA, where I am now, is headed for a serious crisis, and while the reverberations will be global, the waves are going to be steepest for skilled workers near the epicenter. I'm financially content now. But we all have to make decisions based on what we see ahead, and I see a very precipitous fall coming for the USA. This crisis will closely follow the complete energy fuckup (to put in strictly Americentric terms) that is beginning to unfold in the Mideast. The Bush Administration, flying high on a confluence of factors that I won't review here, hastily decided to switch Mideast fuel tanks from Saudi Arabia to Iraq, because of ominous readings of political contamination in the Saudi tank. Ladies and Gentlemen, I'm sorry to inform you, but we have now broken the handle off the fuel switch, and there are mountains rising all around that we are not going to clear. Call it pessimism if you want, but that's how I see it.

So I'm just looking at the exit, and checking my parachute harness. Don't mind me.

As he and many others unfortunately come to misunderstand the world, if Big Brother isn't watching, see what you can get away with- Everyone else will try to get the better of you, so it's only fair.

No, idiot - you've got it quite wrong. It's not that you should or that it's a good thing to do, it's that someone will fucking do it. Most people won't but there is ALWAYS some fucking ASSHAT (like yourself) that would... though really I think YOU are too much of a pussy. Your cowardly stupidity is beside the point, pardon. You see the thing is, that when people see things differently they want different things, generally the things that make their way of life "better" from their perspective. Some perspectives clash and some people who have whatever perspective are not reasonable from the perspective of the other party. Some of those people will do anything to attain their perspective because they learn (incorrectly from the alternative perspective) that it is a matter of their absolute survival even it really isn't. With this fucked up impression of the world (from the alternate perspective[/i], the truly noble (believing in their ideals (which are totally fucked up from the alternative perspective) will fight for what they believe in, as they have embedded their very existence on the promotion of whatever. I would fight to defend my survival. Would you?

This mindset cannot comfortably confront itself, especially in the present American right-wing context, because this collectivist world view (that only government provides fair play) actually shares in its global application the same core as the Soviet communist and fascist perspectives.

:rolleyes:

Oh? Please provide a supporting argument. Have you ever noticed that your posts are at least 90% propaganda and baseless claims. It's funny that the hype you wade through is necessarily all in your mind.

Those under the spell will have trouble reading this carefully enough to understand I did not just label them communists or fascists.

No hype, it's no spell, you just don't know how to read. You made huge assumptions based on your self-serving interpretation of what I said and they were simply wrong. There is a big difference between:

if Big Brother isn't watching, see what you can get away with- Everyone else will try to get the better of you, so it's only fair.

and,

People are individuals, duh... so as a consequence, what they value is subjective. If someone values your resources more than your morals and there is no effective governing power and they are stronger than you, your optimism is moot as you will be dead

It's fucking pyschology man. It's not rocket science. Biologically, some people lack empathy, or have it in a very selected or directed sense. Those people will fucking kill you if they can get away with it. It's just a fact of life. It's nothing to be particularly paranoid about, but the reality of it is an imperative consideration when modelling or discussing human behavior and cultures.

America is rotting out in its own unique, big and fast way.

LOL. Pure propaganda.

Social Darwinism is an example of the flawed view underlying the largest macrosocial malaises of our time. Some see this, some don't.

LOL. Do you even know what you mean by that? "macrosocial malaise"? LOL, how colorful. You, like other propagandists, sure can string together a bunch of baseless horseshit. Impressive. People eat it up don't they? It's fucking amazing. So if it's flawed, you ridiculous asshat, please explain how it is flawed.

Threats and shows of lethal force do not contol healthy human relationships, not in your house, and not between partners cooperating globally.

Oh wait is this an attempt. Pardon then. Okay well dude, that's true and all.. but like your fucking good wishes don't make the few assholes, who simply don't give a FUCK about you.. they don't go away just because you can see how 'love conquers all'. :rolleyes: They're simply part of life. It's bad that they are there, but they are. Thus, in creating policies you have to account for that whole deal, as pretending it isn't happen gets everyone dead at the hands of those who want you dead. It's not complicated. I'll break it down.

1) statistically speaking and considering subjectivity some people don't care if you exist or if you don't.

2) statistically speaking, some of those people see that they could gain from taking your resources, even if it's just a nifty toothpick or the opportunity to rape your wife.

(note that I'm not at all specifying that there are very many people like that, or that I want to hurt people, or that hurting people is good)

3) as long as there are those people,

- there is a means to attempt to perpetrate the acquisition of the desired resource: the resources (including intellect) of the people involved.

- there exists motivation to take said resources since they don't care if you exist, and they perceive that they will be better off with yoru resources. (their values collide with yours. you think YOU should have sex with your wife, but they contend THEY should have sex with her and don't give a SHIT about your objection). When do you fight? What if they kill your child? What if they rape YOU? When do you fight hype? Do you just ghandi it up? Sheez if Ghandi had been in charge in america in 1776 there wouldn't be an America eh? As such you wouldn't exist and wouldn't be around here now, whining about how much your pussy hurts. Wouldn't that be nice?

When do you fight hype?

So the point is, from someone's perspective, someone else will be an asshole.. and eventually if they are asshole enough they will cause some serious trouble - and that's basically because in this context we're little more that somewhat intelligent apes. Some of us are just plain mean. As a social planners, we have to attempt to minimize their socially unacceptable effects. Note though, please, that what is "socially acceptable" is as diverse as the perspectives in which the concept exists. Yet you pretend that to recognize this nature of conflict is a:

misunderstand the world, if Big Brother isn't watching, see what you can get away with- Everyone else will try to get the better of you, so it's only fair

So you think that to recognize a condition is to condone it eh? :rolleyes:

Evolving from tribalism to nationalism to globalism (clumsy term the last, but I don't have time for better now) we are progressively applying positive reciprocity on a wider scale.

Reciprocity? Did you provide a context under which that term falls or are you just stringing together your poetic idealistic musings to enchant the weak minded, ultimately apparently violating every principle you pretend to promote?

Nationality, as a badge entitling an individual to certain rights and priveleges is a corrupt concept- On any scale.

You're a fucking moron. "nationality" is the extension of the idea of a group. Humans a social creatures, and you're an idiot for thinking that the idea of being social is corrupt. People group into "these bastards will protect me and I'll financially support them". It's' fucking survival you idealistic, moronic asshat.

Yes, it just makes me feel better to call you names, as it spices up the tedium of addressing each point of your truly misguided attempts at what people with functional brains refer to as "thought".

onsider 3 children in one family, born in 3 vastly different countries, accordingly treating each other with greater prejudice than the most eggregious crimes of racism within any one culture.
why "accordingly" hype? they live in three different countries so they are supposed to treat each other badly? doesn't that contradict your hippy premise? LOL. are you further asserting that since they are from three different countries, they have to treat each other like animals just because? why do they hate each other so hype? are they just assholes?


Identical tension causes upheaval that takes down the most privileged equally well with the underclass.
"identical tension" between each of the separated people? Identical tension between the "upper" and "under" class? What does this have to do with the three separated people? are you even trying to make sense, or just baiting to see if I'll give you a lecture? wes is predictable, how amusing.

The powerul actually aren't, because the Central Power that authority worshipers trust so unquestionably is having more trouble every year keeping up with what technology is doing borders on maps and in minds.
Okay so this doesn't relate, is unsupported, progandic, and fatalistic in the sense that you're enough of an asshat to call people who live in as a member of nation (which is pretty much everyone) them all "worshipers" and talk about how unquestioning their "faith to their master" is... LOL. What a shithead. What the fuck is wrong with you? If I hire a security force, does that make me "a worshipper" of the security company?

So little Johnny gets to eat well at the table, but his sister Suzie picks through the garbage, while her older brother Jimmy has an entirely differne life in the same (obviously dysfuctional) family- which is exceedingly rare at the microsocial scale, but the norm on the macro. This is our status quo.
Different people, different situations. Shocking.

But it's not workable as the world integrates, and the times we live in will bring misery not only to the underpriveleged in the world.
Hey moron. If the world integrates, then it's an integrated world in which the problems you are whining about wouldn't exist, or we probably wouldn't call it an integrated world. Gawd you make such a fucking mess of this. The world will integrate over time. There's a clue for you. Historically speaking (assuming we, the species, surivive for a long time), it will go fucking fast.

Healthy adjustments are going to become imperative, or new modes of conflict will make humanity a very unhappy family.

As long as there is rice to eat, shelter, and no immediate, physical oppression, happiness is a fucking choice. You obviously choose misery, you miserable byatch. I do too from time to time.

Looking back in time, human contacts, relationships, and understanding were more severely limited by distances, races, cultures, and such things.

Tremendous. Are you just figuring this out or you've known for a while and you've been holding out on us? :rolleyes:

Now (and looking forward in time) the limitations are evaporating.

Wow. Your insight is tremendous. LOL. You just like reading the horseshit you type don't you? Don't lie. Gawd if you could at least try to make it worth your fucking time and learn something or improve yourself in some way from it. Ack. You just spew such fucking drivel as if it were goddamned gospel. Gawd it's so goddamned smarmy and disgusting.

Asking "how can you abandon you Homeland?" makes no sense, if you understand it is a personal global annexation, not to dominate, but to function.
It makes sense if you're trying to get a visa or a passport, moron.

I feel at home in several countries, and I think it is reasonable to continue to expand my personal homeland.
How worldly of you. Please, expand to the point where you learn something worthy of typing rather than your current drivel. I shouldn't argue though. That's a nice idea "expanding your personal homeland" and such, but it doesn't play out if asshats are dropping nukes or commiting genocide, which some are apparently bound to do.

To nationalists, I'm already off the reservation before I pack my bags.
Please, don't forget to stop writing. Honestly I dont' give a fuck about your relationship to the reservation so long as it doesn't harshly interfere with my own. Nationalism is a matter of practicality unless your'e a fanatic like yourself.

Thanks for the reply, Wes. I'll paraphrase a couple of your arguments quickly, because I have to be brief (perfect Soaring Day shaping up). "[Some amongst us will always be assholes, so we need nationhood, wars, etc. Also: (related idea) When will you fight, Hype, you stupid idealistic hippy?]"

I agree with you about aberrations of common sociopathy. We disagree on how we are learning to deal with these things. For instance, we agree that Saddam Hussein is a sociopath, but disagree on how we should react to him. You believe that the USA has been justified, and will benefit, from the mass-violent, nationalistic path our country has taken. I believe the Iraq intervention not only was not justified, but the implications and blowback are going to harm the USA profoundly, and we won't be so blinded by pride in the future, because this is going to be a painful lesson.

If rival gangs were having running firefights in your streets, and blowing up buildings and people, you might consider it necessary behavior, especially if the rival gangs labeled themselves not as Bloods and Crips, or as Cowboys and Indians, but let's say American soldiers and Terrorists. Such conflicts between gangs and nations, collective irrational rampages, are not constructive pursuits for people to involve themselves in, especially in the interest of protecting freedom and prosperity.

Our fight for survival is not with each other, but with ourselves. We are going to win, because humanity's story is not truthfully outlined in crimes and wars, but also in the more significant conquering of our fears and hates in ever-expanding social spheres.

We are learning to play nice, because it works. Becoming socially adjusted in the larger sense makes everyone happier, so we are destined to come together as our heads clear. Yes, bullies will always try to stir up fear and hate now and then, but we are learning how to best put bullies in their place and isolate their damage, by not joining forces with them in zeal or violence, and by refusing to tolerate them in resignation and apathy. Instead we are learning to put in serious effort in more effective ways, and to take the greatest of calculated personal risks in calling the broadest possible attention to their sociopathic actions- Not for God or country to sort out, but for all of us to agree upon solving collectively, just as we already agree to share roadways and skyways. Do all aberrations end, and Utopia emerge by this process? Of course not. But our lives do get progressively better.

I'm leaving the house now, so I can go up where the borders don't show, where I'll linger for several hours just on the power of the sun dappling the fields, forests, and lakes below me. As I head for the airport now, Jefferson Airplane's We can be Together will be playing in my head because it says some of what I'm not taking time to say right now. Bye!

There's a lot in his words that explains why he's so lonely and apparently women just don't find his depression all that attractive. Big shock there...

Hype. No matter what you do or where you go the machine will just keep on chugging along and you will not be missed. Be sure and send us all a postcard from the edge. :rolleyes:

"the machine will just keep on chugging along"

I'm not arguing that mechanisms for social order will stop- I'm not talking about anarchy. There is no "edge", but a progression. I'm trying to stimulate discussion about a trend I can see, in which nationalism is losing ground (while of course making more noise). In my personal political life, I am expressing distaste for a political trend in the USA that is against the tide of history.

International corporations are already surpassing all governments but a handful of the largest of states in their wordwide influence. Meanwhile, international organizations are influencing these largest states profoundly (I'm noting this without value judgement at this point). More of humanity than ever before live in multicultural environments, emigrate, and add or change citizenships. While this is causing xenophobes and nationalists to make noise and commit crimes, this melding is also inexorably bringing globally pervasive multiculturalism. Already, when a nation like the USA tries to look inward, and act outwardly, as a monoculture, an identity crisis and erratic behavior ensues.

The USA provides a convenient example of state governments who have never been nation-states. This system is not by any means a model for a post-nationstate world, but does provide a suggestion of the viability of states to have identities without nationalism; to have distinct identities without controlled borders; and to have their own governments for providing common infrastructure, without the need to prepare for warfare with each other. The USA however loses relevance as a model, considering that the US federal government is attempting to increase its penetration in both local and international affairs.

If a financial crisis were to bankrupt the US federal government, and the collapse were to knock down American federal nationalism (unlikely in the short term), then federal US government could collapse, while the relationships and characters of its constituent states might persist largely intact, resulting in a region devoid of nation-states. Note: Like so many things in threads, these kinds of contingencies often send the discussion off on a tangent- I'm just using this scenario to illustrate states devoid of nationalism, and populations that would move within them as simply as people move between cities.

All governments increasingly must deal not only with domestic, but also international opinion. An all-pervasive world economy is emerging that nation-states ignore or antagonize at their peril. A spontaneous world economic commonwealth, and international law, (Not a world government) are supplanting higher federal authority. The EU is evolving without a central government. International relations are reaching a condition where nationalistic foreign policies don't work as well anymore, and so we are adapting.

The contact and awareness that every individual has (concerning the world at large) is in the early stages of rapid, dramatic augmentation, due to technology that is only beginning to emerge. This trend will not stop for nationalism, and nationalism cannot survive it. We are going to see turbulent times in this transition, and we will have to choose sides as individuals. Those who choose nationalism are not just going to be losers- they will be sore losers, and that is one reason why some hard times are ahead. I for one repudiate nationalism, and I raise a toast to the demise of nation-states.

"Only America has to fear China, the world loves China right now"

Except of course Tibet, Hong Kong, and Taiwan....but who cares about them.....
Oh and the Russians dont trust them, the Japanese dont like them.....

If you want to use economics as a love guage then the World obviously loves us the most.

Except of course Tibet, Hong Kong, and Taiwan....but who cares about them.....

Well those are problematic, because there are people in each region that like China as well. So it’s really all subjective, China was the economic engine of the developing world not the US.

Oh and the Russians dont trust them,

That's why there is discussion of increased trade links, and even threats of a alliance? Seems shaky there.

the Japanese dont like them.....

But the Japanese need the Chinese, 37% of the Japanese economic growth is directly attributed to China. Frankly I think the Japanese are warming up, and really its visa versa the Chinese hate the Japanese for the atrocities committed in China.

If you want to use economics as a love guage then the World obviously loves us the most.

Loves to exploit you yes, and the Chinese love you the most indeed. But the world is lucky that China is becoming the world’s number 2, and soon #1.

Crazy:
"If you want to use economics as a love guage then the World obviously loves us the most."

True, but that needle may have several years' lag. The US came out of WW2 with a tremendous head start, that may not outlast the "Greatest Generation".

I hesitated to bring the USA in as a focus here, because I think the trends away from nazionalism are stronger elsewhere. Europe for example has a highly-developed, continually integrating economy, routinely mingling citizens, and has made remarkable progress since their final military nation-state wars among their fellow West/Central Europeans.

While America re-invents the Cold War, this time the War on Terra, Europe has a clear shot at passing her by.

David I am well aware with the issues pertaining to China, I think you give those problems too much credit personally. That unemployment is being decreased thanks to generous FDI, and yes there are problems. But China’s living standards have exploded, and you cannot deny that China is playing a significant role in international trade. The shift is happening towards China, and away from the West.

Yes, Yes, Trade is good...

That is not an issue you can brush aside so easily, trade is the cornerstone of international influence.

I you had to choose between a good job and having a wife/children, would you choose the money?

Shit yes! I wannabe a DINK. Most people in the developed world want to become DINKS as well. China is going through the “little emperor” syndrome in which the male heir is spoiled, and chances are that he would want more money to spoil himself instead of having those kids.

You said China was not a threat to its neighbors, or outside its borders (Taiwan being inside its borders), but I disagree.

That is supposed to be an argument?

It will attack its neighbors. This may not be an all-out war of aggression, but it will still be a war - for women. Since China will not want to admit its mistake, it will be excused as a need for resources, and territory - and China won't be worried about killing civilians or protecting human rights.

I think you are taking this WAY out of proportion, the population of China can still support itself and there is still hundreds of million to go around. Frankly China wants a massive population decrease so more wealth can go to more people, and thus increase the realative size of it’s market. Secondly you must understand that China is very xenophobic, and Chinese are not known for intermarriage with other cultures. The Chinese are very genetically secure, they are the world’s most genetically superior ppl due to their gene pools size. I don’t not see the “rapping sinos” scenario ever happening, maybe for Marvel comics but in our reality. Really if I am to believe this argument then how about Europe? Shouldn’t she be invading Africa? I mean her population will be only 290 million by the year 2100, and half of them will be over 60? So really your argument gets a A from my creative writing teacher, but F in logics.

Undecided: "China is going through the “little emperor” syndrome in which the male heir is spoiled, and chances are that he would want more money to spoil himself instead of having those kids."

There are a lot of these folks around, all over the globe, and they don't all follow the total scenario. My gorgeous Chinese wife may be spoiling this male heir but she wanted kids too and so now we have them, good ones too, bilingual and learning like there's no tomorrow (hope not). China is changing fast and it is a big place. Some have more kids than others. Hard to go about classifying them as all one type. Include those of such ancestry in other places on the planet and I wonder if such typifications might be the exception rather than rule any more, if they did have validity at one time.

I wonder about a different use of terminology. If we are going to leave the nation-state behind, aren't we going to have to use a different way to refer to folks than this national affiliation or that? I suggest latitude and longitude references might be more cogent especially with time reference tagging as now people who predominate in specific regions are changing fast as far as their general traditional restrictions or liberties.

Go figure.

I really should spend more time in my study of Mandarin. It is a quite intriguing language.