God's commandment? - SciForums.com

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stefan

12-22-05, 03:58 PM

the Ten commandments?

1,Thou shalt have no other Gods before me.
Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them:

It is apparent the nazarene is claiming he is "god." So where does that leave Jehova?
Matthew 4
7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

(Here he is obviously referring to himself)

8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

Matthew 28
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Now there are three gods?

John 1
17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

So is he alluding to the law given by Moses is a lie?

Colossians 2
5 For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.
6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him

Titus 2
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Now "Jesus" is god?

Philippians 2
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

2, Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

So what is this entity's name? Jehova? Yaweh? Both JHVH and YHVH mean I am that I am. Which one? Shibboleh? This makes about as much sense as he does.

3, Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Luke 6: 1-5
1 And it came to pass on the second sabbath after the first, that he went through the corn fields; and his disciples plucked the ears of corn, and did eat, rubbing them in their hands.
2 And certain of the Pharisees said unto them, Why do ye that which is not lawful to do on the sabbath days?
3 And Jesus answering them said, Have ye not read so much as this, what David did, when himself was an hungred, and they which were with him;
4 How he went into the house of God, and did take and eat the shewbread, and gave also to them that were with him; which it is not lawful to eat but for the priests alone?
5 And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

4, Honour thy Father and thy Mother:

Matthew 10: 37
37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

Luke 9: 59-62
59 And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. 60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.
61 And another also said, Lord, I will follow thee; but let me first go bid them farewell, which are at home at my house.
62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

Matthew 10: 34-36
34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father and the daughter against her mother and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

5,Thou shalt not kill.

God commits murder:

Exodus 23:27
I will send my fear before thee, and will destroy all the people to whom thou shalt come, and I will make all thine enemies turn their backs unto thee.

God orders the murder of thousands:

Exodus 32:27-28
And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.
28 And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.

God orders his people to commit more murder:

Leviticus 26:7-8
And ye shall chase your enemies, and they shall fall before you by the sword.
8 And five of you shall chase an hundred, and an hundred of you shall put ten thousand to flight: and your enemies shall fall before you by the sword.

It is more than obvious, the "lord" thinks nothing of murder or ordering others to commit murder:

Numbers 1:51
And when the tabernacle setteth forward, the Levites shall take it down: and when the tabernacle is to be pitched, the Levites shall set it up: and the stranger that cometh nigh shall be put to death.

Murder is so important to God, he has to repeat himself:

Numbers 3:10 And thou shalt appoint Aaron and his sons, and they shall wait on their priest's office: and the stranger that cometh nigh shall be put to death.

More murder- The people were hungry and without food:

Numbers 11:1 And when the people complained, it displeased the LORD: and the LORD heard it; and his anger was kindled; and the fire of the LORD burnt among them, and consumed them that were in the uttermost parts of the camp.
11:2 And the people cried unto Moses; and when Moses prayed unto the LORD, the fire was quenched. More mass murder at the hands of the "lord:"
Numbers 21:3 And the LORD hearkened to the voice of Israel, and delivered up the Canaanites; and they utterly destroyed them and their cities: and he called the name of the place Hormah. Now, we have cannibalism under the direction of jehova:
Numbers 23-24: Behold, the people shall rise up as a great lion, and lift up himself as a young lion: he shall not lie down until he eat of the prey, and drink the blood of the slain.

God orders more mass murder:

Numbers 25:16
And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 25:17 Vex the Midianites, and smite them:
Numbers 31:7 And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males.
31:8 And they slew the kings of Midian, beside the rest of them that were slain; namely, Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, five kings of Midian: Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword.
31:9 And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods.
31:10 And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire.
31:11 And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts.

God commits more mass murder:

Deuteronomy 2:20
(That also was accounted a land of giants: giants dwelt therein in old time; and the Ammonites call them Zamzummims;
2:21 A people great, and many, and tall, as the Anakims; but the LORD destroyed them before them; and they succeeded them, and dwelt in their stead:
2:22 As he did to the children of Esau, which dwelt in Seir, when he destroyed the Horims from before them; and they succeeded them, and dwelt in their stead even unto this day:
2:23 And the Avims which dwelt in Hazerim, even unto Azzah, the Caphtorims, which came forth out of Caphtor, destroyed them, and dwelt in their stead.)
2:30 But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him: for the LORD thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand, as appeareth this day.
2:31 And the LORD said unto me, Behold, I have begun to give Sihon and his land before thee: begin to possess, that thou mayest inherit his land.
2:32 Then Sihon came out against us, he and all his people, to fight at Jahaz.
2:33 And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people.
2:34 And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain:
2:35 Only the cattle we took for a prey unto ourselves, and the spoil of the cities which we took.
2:36 From Aroer, which is by the brink of the river of Arnon, and from the city that is by the river, even unto Gilead, there was not one city too strong for us: the LORD our God delivered all unto us:
2:37 Only unto the land of the children of Ammon thou camest not, nor unto any place of the river Jabbok, nor unto the cities in the mountains, nor unto whatsoever the LORD our God forbad us.
Numbers 31
17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

The mass murders committed by and directed by Jehova fills much of the Old Testament. The above scriptures are only a small sample. Including all of them here would take pages and pages.

Like father, like son- quotes from the nazarene:

Luke 19: 27
27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
Matthew 10: 34-36
34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

6, Thou shalt not commit adultery.

Exodus 22
16 And if a man entice a maid that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely endow her to be his wife.
17 If her father utterly refuse to give her unto him, he shall pay money according to the dowry of virgins.
2 Samuel 12
11 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.
12 For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.

Luke 8:
3 And Joanna the wife of Chuza Herod's steward, and Susanna, and many others, which ministered unto him of their substance.

7, Thou shalt not steal.

God orders his Hebrews to steal from the Egyptians:

Exodus 3
21 And I will give this people favour in the sight of the Egyptians: and it shall come to pass, that, when ye go, ye shall not go empty.
22 But every woman shall borrow of her neighbour, and of her that sojourneth in her house, jewels of silver, and jewels of gold, and raiment: and ye shall put them upon your sons, and upon your daughters; and ye shall spoil the Egyptians.

God steals land from the Canaanites:

Leviticus 14
34 When ye be come into the land of Canaan, which I give to you for a possession, and I put the plague of leprosy in a house of the land of your possession;

Murder and stealing under orders from God:

Numbers 31:
1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
2 Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites: afterward shalt thou be gathered unto thy people. 3 And Moses spake unto the people, saying, Arm some of yourselves unto the war, and let them go against the Midianites, and avenge the LORD of Midian.
4 Of every tribe a thousand, throughout all the tribes of Israel, shall ye send to the war.
5 So there were delivered out of the thousands of Israel, a thousand of every tribe, twelve thousand armed for war.
6 And Moses sent them to the war, a thousand of every tribe, them and Phinehas the son of Eleazar the priest, to the war, with the holy instruments, and the trumpets to blow in his hand.
7 And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males.
8 And they slew the kings of Midian, beside the rest of them that were slain; namely, Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, five kings of Midian: Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword.
9 And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods.
10 And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire.
11 And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts.

Like father, like son:

Luke 19: 29-35
29 And it came to pass, when he was come nigh to Bethphage and Bethany, at the mount called the mount of Olives, he sent two of his disciples,
30 Saying, Go ye into the village over against you; in the which at your entering ye shall find a colt tied, whereon yet never man sat: loose him, and bring him hither.
31 And if any man ask you, Why do ye loose him? thus shall ye say unto him, Because the Lord hath need of him.
32 And they that were sent went their way, and found even as he had said unto them.
33 And as they were loosing the colt, the owners thereof said unto them, Why loose ye the colt?
34 And they said, The Lord hath need of him.
35 And they brought him to Jesus: and they cast their garments upon the colt, and they set Jesus thereon.

Luke 6: 1-5
1 And it came to pass on the second sabbath after the first, that he went through the corn fields; and his disciples plucked the ears of corn, and did eat, rubbing them in their hands.
2 And certain of the Pharisees said unto them, Why do ye that which is not lawful to do on the sabbath days?
3 And Jesus answering them said, Have ye not read so much as this, what David did, when himself was an hungred, and they which were with him;
4 How he went into the house of God, and did take and eat the shewbread, and gave also to them that were with him; which it is not lawful to eat but for the priests alone?
5 And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

8, Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

There are hundreds of verses that prove Jehova is a prolific liar. He and his nazarene, prophets and followers all bear false witness against Satan.

Some of God's Lies:

Genesis 2
16 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Adam lived another 930 years:

Genesis 5
5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

God promised a homeland for the jews:

Exodus 3
8 And I am come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up out of that land unto a good land and a large, unto a land flowing with milk and honey; unto the place of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites.

The Old Testament is replete with stories of the Hebrews for generations on end, trying to secure a homeland. This entire scenario appears to be Jehova's excuse for murder and bloodshed to be used for psychic energy. Only in 1948 was the state of Israel finally a reality and most of the world's jews still remain without a homeland. Somebody is a day late and a dollar short.

9/10, Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

The numerous verses, many are listed above, show how God has no respect for human beings or their property. He coveted the land of the Canaanites, demanded relentlessly, the blood sacrifices of human beings and animals and continuously looted from others.

Luke 8:
3 And Joanna the wife of Chuza Herod's steward, and Susanna, and many others, which ministered unto him of their substance.

Luke 19: 29-35
29 And it came to pass, when he was come nigh to Bethphage and Bethany, at the mount called the mount of Olives, he sent two of his disciples,
30 Saying, Go ye into the village over against you; in the which at your entering ye shall find a colt tied, whereon yet never man sat: loose him, and bring him hither.
31 And if any man ask you, Why do ye loose him? thus shall ye say unto him, Because the Lord hath need of him.
32 And they that were sent went their way, and found even as he had said unto them.
33 And as they were loosing the colt, the owners thereof said unto them, Why loose ye the colt?
34 And they said, The Lord hath need of him.
35 And they brought him to Jesus: and they cast their garments upon the colt, and they set Jesus thereon.

the God and his bible are morally corrupt.

c7ityi_

12-22-05, 04:35 PM

You have misunderstood the entire Bible.

The Devil Inside

12-22-05, 05:08 PM

rather, he has misunderstood that there is a difference between christianity and judaism.

the poster and his ramblings are corrupt.
how does that feel?

Katazia

12-22-05, 06:27 PM

c7ityi -

You have misunderstood the entire Bible. The bible is not something to be understood but rather it offers opportunities for imaginative interpretations that have no anchor in real life. In this respect stefan's interpretation is no less valid than any other.

Kat

Mosheh Thezion

12-22-05, 07:50 PM

It is not God that is corrupt... it is only men who are.

all evil.. all wrongness.. all stupidity is derived from men.. and women.

Do not blame God for any flaw in a book written by men.

Think what you want about the bible... or any other book..

they are just books...

But God, the creator of all, is, in relation to mankind... without flaw, comparitively..

if you have an ant farm... and you drop it.. and kill most of your ants..

are you evil? are you flawed...? no.. your just clumsy.

and if we are all Gods property, then in fact, he can do whatever he wants, and it will never be wrong... it may seem wrong.. but as ants.. we cannot precieve the intentions of our God...
For god may spill the earth.. and kill 90% of all life... and we may say its a terrible thing...

but millions of years later.. we look back and we thank God for all the mass extinctions which allowed mankind to evolve in the first place.

No.. blame belong with the men.. those men who do evil, and who have written scripture... and there is where the blame ends.

-MT

Adstar

12-22-05, 08:00 PM

There are hundreds of verses that prove Jehova is a prolific liar. He and his nazarene, prophets and followers all bear false witness against Satan.

This sentance clearly shows who you serve. Your false acusations against The God of Abraham will only ensure your eternal destination is the same as satans.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

c7ityi_

12-22-05, 08:22 PM

This sentance clearly shows who you serve. Your false acusations against The God of Abraham will only ensure your eternal destination is the same as satans.

You don't need to say your opinions. God knows what he does with every person. He knows it better than you.

The Devil Inside

12-23-05, 09:27 AM

i agree. you have no right to condemn other folks, adstar. you cannot speak for G-d, so dont try.

at least i wouldnt, anyhow.

geeser

12-23-05, 01:54 PM

what a bunch of morons, arguing amongst yourselves.
who needs atheist, ah.

incidently adstar yorda and devil atheist have no fear of a god or a devil, there non existent.

jayleew

12-23-05, 02:04 PM

Morality is objective and the circumstances matter. All of these examples you have taken out of the context. It is like saying Luke was evil for destroying the Death Star, and all those people in it.

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Perspective and circumstance matter to define morality. God was personally responsible for sending rain for 40 days and 40 nights and drowning the whole Earth's population, but one family. Tell me how that is moral? It was moral. And still, God was remorseful that it had to be done. Christian morality is defined as anything which is commanded by God. Truly commanded by God.

There was a time when God had commanded that the Isrealites be punished and sent war into Isreal, then he punished those who he commanded to kill Isrealites because they did not truly follow God's commands and killed for alterior motives.

genep

12-23-05, 03:31 PM

I did not know god had any commandments
except those mankind needs for its religions
to rule the world regardless of what the hell he, god,
thinks, wants, needs and does.

Adstar

12-23-05, 06:57 PM

i agree. you have no right to condemn other folks, adstar. you cannot speak for G-d, so dont try.

at least i wouldnt, anyhow.

It was a warning.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Clockwood

12-23-05, 07:33 PM

More burned offerings!

hug-a-tree

12-26-05, 10:02 AM

People in the bible commit sins, just like you and I do.

The old testament talks about how you shouldn't eat certain foods, but in the new testament it says that everythings good to eat. I never understood that, but I just don't eat meat anyway. Not for religious reasons, just because.
The new testament is different from the old testament, I guess.

hug-a-tree

12-26-05, 10:10 AM

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Now there are three gods?

13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Now "Jesus" is god?

Have you not heard of the Holy Trinity? Okay, well the Trinity is the supreme divine being, it's the Father, Son, and Holy ghost together united as one. They are part of one body.
So Jesus is the Lord pretty much.

hug-a-tree

12-26-05, 10:13 AM

It's okay you guys he just didn't understand. It's a good thing you asked!

(Q)

12-26-05, 10:14 AM

(Q)

12-26-05, 10:15 AM

hugatree

The old testament talks about how you shouldn't eat certain foods, but in the new testament it says that everythings good to eat. I never understood that

Could it be that mere men wrote the bible and then decided to change their minds?

hug-a-tree

12-26-05, 02:04 PM

no, I don't think so. I mean that could be true, but I don't think that's it. The Bible is supposed to be the complete truth, but I don't get it. Maybe they messed up the translation? I was in sunday school for sometime and I asked my teacher why the Bible contradicts itself. She gave me an answer...It still wasn't all that clear too me.
She said, of course that the Bible doesn't contradict itself, that we're not sure of how to translate it.
She said that those foods made you sicker easier (like when there not cleansed properly, kept cool...etc..), and that later on they became more aware of that so they were able to eat them. It doesn't say that anywhere in the Bible though. That was just her guess. I guess no-one knows.

(Q)

12-27-05, 10:33 AM

hug-a-tree

12-27-05, 11:21 AM

no, I don't think so. I mean that could be true, but I don't think that's it. The Bible is supposed to be the complete truth, but I don't get it.

Yes, the bible is 'supposed' to be gods word, that is what theists would like you to believe. I'm not telling you to believe otherwise, but you should, for your own benefit, think about alternatives.

She said, of course that the Bible doesn't contradict itself, that we're not sure of how to translate it.

If the word of god cannot be translated correctly, what good is it? If the tranlations are wrong, then you are following false doctrine.

It would make more sense that the bible was written by men who knew nothing of the world and were probably deluded themselves. The stories they wrote were on par with other works of fiction like Aesop and Grimms.

I've been iffy about Religion and everything, and I know that I've been raised Christian my entire life. You may not think I'm thinking for myself, but I really honestly believe. I may not understand everything in the bible. I know there are a lot of anti-gay things in the bible as well. I don't really like that, sure, but it's not my place to judge anyway. It's not my place to play as God. I don't like preaching anyway.
This is just me honestly speaking, I don't think I could ever not believe. I'm not narrow minded or anything, or a radical, I just believe.

(Q)

12-27-05, 11:34 AM

It's not my place to play as God.

You're not really playing as a god, you're simply questioning others perceptions of something that has never been shown to exist.

it's not my place to judge anyway

On the contrary, it IS your place to judge. You should look critically at the bible for what it is and those who would have you believe in fantasies. Judge them very harshly, for they are only interested in one thing, that you follow them blindly.

This is just me honestly speaking, I don't think I could ever not believe.

Oh, but you CAN not believe, it's not that difficult once you begin to question those who would make you a follower.

You should question as to why the religion you believe is the right one and why everyone elses is wrong. Why aren't their religions right?

I'm not narrow minded or anything, or a radical, I just believe.

Then, the first thing you need to question is why you believe? Do you need to believe in religion? Why?

jayleew

12-27-05, 11:35 AM

Mosheh

Do not blame God for any flaw in a book written by men.

Think what you want about the bible... or any other book..

they are just books...

Considering that the bible is supposed to be the word of god, which you claim is merely a book written by men, a most correct assumption btw, how is it possible for you to still believe in a god if no reference to him is available aside from the bible?

Because God proves himself to you personally, over many years, and you reach an epiphany when you realize he has always been there, even when you didn't believe in him, or even in your deepest sin. Such that, you will no longer need the Bible to prove that God is real; instead, you will need the Bible for its true purposes in life.

(Q)

12-27-05, 11:42 AM

Because God proves himself to you personally, over many years

That is a delusion.

Such that, you will no longer need the Bible to prove that God is real; instead, you will need the Bible for its true purposes in life.

The bible can be interpreted in any fantastic way once you've convinced yourself fantasy is reality.

hug-a-tree

12-27-05, 11:43 AM

hug-a-tree

12-27-05, 11:45 AM

[i][i]
Then, the first thing you need to question is why you believe? Do you need to believe in religion? Why?

I believe because I do. I mean I've prayed on it and all and I follow my gut. The Bible is full of truth.

jayleew

12-27-05, 11:47 AM

no, I don't think so. I mean that could be true, but I don't think that's it. The Bible is supposed to be the complete truth, but I don't get it.

Yes, the bible is 'supposed' to be gods word, that is what theists would like you to believe. I'm not telling you to believe otherwise, but you should, for your own benefit, think about alternatives.

She said, of course that the Bible doesn't contradict itself, that we're not sure of how to translate it.

If the word of god cannot be translated correctly, what good is it? If the tranlations are wrong, then you are following false doctrine.

It would make more sense that the bible was written by men who knew nothing of the world and were probably deluded themselves. The stories they wrote were on par with other works of fiction like Aesop and Grimms.

It is the complete thoughts that are important, not specifics. It is like the theory of the origins of life missing vital data. Does that negate the fact of evolution? In context, the underlying messages are always the same throughout scripture, even though cultural changes instituted new laws and/or traditions. That is why it is equally important to be knowledgable in history, archealogy, and anthropology to truly understand the scriptural meanings accurately and precisely. Another "feature" of the Bible is that it often presents a concept that is confusing, but redefines the idea right after the concept. It is a lot of critical thinking and spirit leading to understand a poorly translated scripture. The Bible is literal, but within the context of the cultural influences and mannerisms. It is not as easy as deciphering a single book because the collection was written over many generations.

(Q)

12-27-05, 11:56 AM

hug-a-tree

12-27-05, 12:03 PM

I was saying that when people sin it's not my place to judge them, since that would be playing as God.

Sin's are irrelavent since one can easily confess their sins and are exonerated. Ridiculous in the extreme.

You have every right to judge harshly those who do harm to others. They will continue to do so regardless of your beliefs.

I believe because I do. I mean I've prayed on it and all and I follow my gut. The Bible is full of truth.

Perhaps you should start following your brain instead of your gut.

If the bible was full of truth, why would you say you don't understand it? Why would you believe the bible to be full of truth when much of the bible has already been shown to be false?

Whoa whoa whoa don't call me stupid. I don't believe the same things as you, but oh well. I believe in God, and well maybe you do but maybe not...
I do read up on other religions, you know. But I'm all Christian.

Your sins are not always forgiven, you know. Try finding a priest that'll forgive you for murder and rape.

There are somethings I don't understand sure, but from what I know I believe.

jayleew

12-27-05, 12:04 PM

Because God proves himself to you personally, over many years

That is a delusion.

What is delusional is a matter of perspective. People didn't always believe we could have the light bulb. Besides, what are we talking about? I cannot dispute that X happened to me just at the right time so that Y would occur, even though Z was a better solution given the information at the time of X. At what point does this culmination of coincidences become more than chance? At what point can we say that these coincidences could not have happened by chance, and is it a coincidence that all these coincidences bring me to God. 1000 coincidences? 10 billion? How about infinite? That is what I experience when I trust in God. I am always pleasantly surprised that he shows up. It never ceases to amaze me. If I choose poorly, I pay the price, and God turns it around. If I choose according to God's plan, I am sometimes persecuted by unbelievers, but I am filled with joy, peace, love, and happiness.

Such that, you will no longer need the Bible to prove that God is real; instead, you will need the Bible for its true purposes in life.

The bible can be interpreted in any fantastic way once you've convinced yourself fantasy is reality.

No, the opposite is true. If you don't believe in God, the Bible can be interpreted in any fantastic way. Once you are filled with the spirit, it leads you to the true interpretation...which other Christians may disagree with, but those are small matters. And it is more likely that, in controversy among the spirit-filled, that both parties are wrong because only God is right. In other places in the Bible it teaches of how to debate with Christians, and that is always with humility, not arrogance.

(Q)

12-27-05, 12:06 PM

(Q)

12-27-05, 12:12 PM

hug-a-tree

12-27-05, 12:21 PM

Whoa whoa whoa don't call me stupid.

I did no such thing.

I don't believe the same things as you, but oh well. I believe in God,

Yes, I know, but you don't why you believe in god, you just do. You've never seen a god yet you believe in one. Have you seen a fire-breathing dragon? Do you believe in dragons?

I do read up on other religions, you know. But I'm all Christian.

Then perhaps you can explain to me why Christianity is right and all the other religions are wrong. As well, there are 22,000 different versions of Christianity, which one do you believe in and why are all the other version wrong?

Try finding a priest that'll forgive you for murder and rape.

No problem, they do that all the time. Priests aren't the police.

There are somethings I don't understand sure, but from what I know I believe.

But, what do you know and why do you believe?

I'm Catholic.

Are you trying to turn me out of my religion or something?

I believe because I do. You know that song by coldplay? God put a smile on your face. Well it says "where do we go, no-body knows. I've gotta say I'm on my way down. God gave me style and gave me grace, god put a smile upon my face. Where do we go to draw the line?....your guess is as good as mine" Like he said where do we go to draw the line?
I look at every religion as sort of being a road. I looked at this road and saw that it was good. ha ha

(Q)

12-27-05, 12:24 PM

What is delusional is a matter of perspective.

Of course, you perceive fantasy and I perceive reality. We are of course looking at exactly the same things.

People didn't always believe we could have the light bulb.

So what?

At what point can we say that these coincidences could not have happened by chance, and is it a coincidence that all these coincidences bring me to God.

If your perspective is viewed from a point of fantasy, then everything will bring you back to that fantasy. Of course, it's still just fantasy.

Once you are filled with the spirit, it leads you to the true interpretation...which other Christians may disagree with, but those are small matters.

Au contraire, those are HUGE matters. If Christians can't even agree with one another on their views, then those views are worthless and only serve to be ones fanatasy.

And it is more likely that, in controversy among the spirit-filled, that both parties are wrong because only God is right.

Then those views are worthless and you are all wrong. God then, is pointless.

(Q)

12-27-05, 12:28 PM

Are you trying to turn me out of my religion or something?

Would that be a bad thing? Free yourself from the slavery of religion.

I believe because I do.

That's an excuse, not a reason. So, why not believe in dragons?

I look at every religion as sort of being a road. I looked at this road and saw that it was good. ha ha

Is not reality a good road? Why believe in fantasies?

hug-a-tree

12-27-05, 12:35 PM

(Q)

12-27-05, 01:10 PM

Can't we just agree to disagree?

Certainly, let's shut down the forums and we can all agree to disagree.

All I'm doing is asking questions as to why you believe in god and why not other things, but you don't seem to even know yourself, which is very curious indeed. And from your last statement, I can only assume you don't want to go there, that you don't really want to know those answers.

Is it because you know you might just find fault in your beliefs that could jeopardize your faith?

It sounds to me like you really do want to find real answers to real questions, but are hesitant since you know those answers will conflict with your beliefs.

Would you rather be of the mind to shun hard evidence in favor of fantasy? And if you ignore this evidence over here, why would you not ignore that evidence over there? Where do you draw the line between what is placed in front of you to what is placed in front of you?

hug-a-tree

12-27-05, 01:13 PM

I do see your points, sure on somethings. But what are you trying to tell me? Like what's the bottom line of this all? Stop being Catholic?

(Q)

12-27-05, 01:37 PM

But what are you trying to tell me? Like what's the bottom line of this all? Stop being Catholic?

I don't know, you tell me. Would you continue to be Catholic if you found out that it was all man made fantasies? Maybe you should be a Muslim? Do you think that if you were born in Iraq instead, would you be a Catholic?

hug-a-tree

12-27-05, 01:40 PM

possibly...
If I found out it was all fantasies, sure I wouldn't be catholic anymore. But I don't believe that. I have to get off. It's been nice talking to you. If you'd like you can email me at clairdelune_08@yahoo.ie, if you want to carry on.

jayleew

12-27-05, 01:44 PM

It is the complete thoughts that are important, not specifics. It is like the theory of the origins of life missing vital data. Does that negate the fact of evolution?

Please don't confuse or compare scientific theories with religious fantasy. Specifics are as important, if not more important than the complete thought. If the specifics are false, the complete thought is pointless.

Your rebuttals are as hasty as ever because you miss the points and assume I mean something else. Yes, it has to do with my miscommunication, but that is why you need to digest arguments.

My intention was not to confuse or compare scientific theories with religious fantasy. My statement was an illustration of how a conclusion such as that all life resulted from the device of evolution, as a whole, cannot be refutted on a single controversy...and that the controversy in no way negates the fact of evolution. In that way, if someone were to refute say the fossil record, the theory stands on genetics, astronomy, etc. It is the same way with the concepts and conclusions made in the Bible. They are consistent as a whole, even though tidbits of a part can be refutted and debated. For instance, the Bible says that the righteous shall find heaven. That idea is repeated in scripture in different ways, and if one was to refute an instance, that does not negate the conclusion that the righteous shall find heaven. Do you understand what I mean by specifics not being as important? Maybe specifics is not the right word, but hopefully you get my meaning. Hasty judgement of arguments is a foolish venture because of the medium we use to communicate.

That is why it is equally important to be knowledgable in history, archealogy, and anthropology to truly understand the scriptural meanings accurately and precisely.

If history, archealogy and anthropology are applied, scriptures become meaningless, vacuous myths, which they have already revealed them to be.

The Bible's lineage of characters is historically accurate. We have other evidence which substatiate that those characters existed.

"on July 21, 1993, a team of archaeologists led by Prof. Avraham Biran, excavating Tel Dan in the northern Galilee, found a triangular piece of basalt rock, measuring 23 x 36 cm. inscribed in Aramaic. It was subsequently identified as part of a victory pillar erected by the king of Syria and later smashed by an Israelite ruler. The inscription, which dates to the ninth century bce, that is to say, about a century after David was thought to have ruled Israel, includes the words Beit David ("House" or "Dynasty" of David"). It is the first near-contemporaneous reference to David ever found. It is not conclusive; but it does strongly indicate that a king called David established a dynasty in Israel during the relevant period."

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2003/9/King%20David%20and%20Jerusalem-%20Myth%20and%20Reality

"The archaeological supports in the case of Jesus’ greatest follower, Paul of Tarsus, are especially impressive. Ruins in Cyprus, Galatia, Philippi, Thessalonica, Berea, Athens, Corinth, Ephesus, Rome and elsewhere all bear out the many references about Paul in the New Testament.

As hard evidence from the past, "the very stones cry out" the reliability of the Biblical record. It is amusing to note that many of the last century’s most trenchant critics of Jesus and the New Testament refused at first even to consider the result of archaeology, so counter to their opinions was its evidence! Today, I can’t imagine anyone, friend or foe of the faith, would be stupid enough to hold so foolish an attitude."

http://www.issuesetc.org/resource/archives/maier3.htm

(Q)

12-27-05, 02:10 PM

In that way, if someone were to refute say the fossil record, the theory stands on genetics, astronomy, etc. It is the same way with the concepts and conclusions made in the Bible. They are consistent as a whole, even though tidbits of a part can be refutted and debated.

I'll agree they can be debated, but hardly refuted. Perhaps a better example would be that of aether. Once refuted, it was forgotten.

But if we were to debate or attempt to refute religious beliefs, tidbitious or not, we would be left with little more than ones faith, since there is nothing to observe or test. It would be an assertion, like that of the aether, although there would be nothing to test that would allow us to technically refute it.

I would suspect though, like the aether, if testable, those beliefs would yield null results as well.

For instance, the Bible says that the righteous shall find heaven. That idea is repeated in scripture in different ways, and if one was to refute an instance, that does not negate the conclusion that the righteous shall find heaven. Do you understand what I mean by specifics not being as important?

I understand that when something is repeated enough times, you're apt to believe it. I could also make up dozens of ways to explain the aether, none of which would have any validity whatsoever. In other words, the specifics are as vacuous as the end result.

As hard evidence from the past, "the very stones cry out" the reliability of the Biblical record.

So, what you're saying is that a stone points to the fact that a man called David once made his capital Jerusalem, some time ago. And this shows the accuracy of the bible how?

jayleew

12-28-05, 11:26 AM

As hard evidence from the past, "the very stones cry out" the reliability of the Biblical record.

So, what you're saying is that a stone points to the fact that a man called David once made his capital Jerusalem, some time ago. And this shows the accuracy of the bible how?

Hmmm. How else can the accounts of the Bible be proven? We have archealogical evidence of the places mentioned in the Bible, we even have a burned mountain top in the Saudi Arabian desert (Jabal al Lawz), the place where God gave his laws to Moses. The blackened top has rocks of granite, burned from without. In fact, we have evidence of every geological formation mentioned in Exodus. That does not prove the accounts, only that the places which exist today, existed in that time period. Now, we have evidence of the characters existence. That does not prove the accounts either. So, what does? The Bible is historically accurate, but at the same time, still is considered a work of fiction. So, what could prove the books as fact? Does it take proving God's existence to prove that the events in the Bible are true, or can they be seperated? Can a Jesus Christ exist and claim he is the Son of God, without there being a God?

KennyJC

12-28-05, 12:23 PM

The Bible is historically accurate

If it was historically accurate it would have been able to predict how the universe was created, how mankind came to be and the age of the Earth. These are pretty difficult questions the bible attempted to answer, and as we know today, it failed. And these are just the most obvious things off the top of my head, I'm sure there are many other bible claims that can be proven false.

How can we then trust the rest of the bible (the parts that can not be proven wrong) to be historically accurate ?

(Q)

12-28-05, 12:38 PM

The Bible is historically accurate, but at the same time, still is considered a work of fiction.

Of course, given that the bible mentions places and people that may have existed does not quanitify the fantastic stories contained within.

So, what could prove the books as fact? Does it take proving God's existence to prove that the events in the Bible are true, or can they be seperated?

One would have to ask as to why the men who wrote the bible, as ignorant as they were about the world in which they lived, are privy to gods existence and we are not? Why would god show himself to these men and remain completely hidden since?

Can a Jesus Christ exist and claim he is the Son of God, without there being a God?

You see people everyday claiming all kinds of whacky things, why would the so-called Christ be any different?

jayleew

12-28-05, 01:15 PM

If it was historically accurate it would have been able to predict how the universe was created, how mankind came to be and the age of the Earth. These are pretty difficult questions the bible attempted to answer, and as we know today, it failed. And these are just the most obvious things off the top of my head, I'm sure there are many other bible claims that can be proven false.

How can we then trust the rest of the bible (the parts that can not be proven wrong) to be historically accurate ?

Good question. That goes back to whether or not you believe in God, because some believe that the accounts of the world's creation found in the Bible is accurate. I assume you don't, so I appreciate your position about trusting the rest of the Bible. You are a reasonable.

However, the Bible was not written by one man, and it has accurate accounts of places and events in the non-philosophical and non-religious portions. I am not so ready to throw a conclusion away when the evidence that supports it being historically accurate outweighs the evidence of its alleged ficticious representations. There are more instances of accurate historical representations than non-accurate. In fact, the creation of the world is the only historical representation that can be refutted by scholars. The rest can be debated, but not refutted. There are many non-biblical documents which contain strikingly similar historical data from a different cultural perspective. For instance, many civilizations have the account of the Great Flood. The Mesopotamian accounts are so similar to the Bible's narrative that some scholars debate that the Bible is a copy made after the author read the accounts. But, there are Sumerian and Akkadian documents of the Great Flood as well. The Sumerian account dates back to the 19th and 18th century. Science was not what it is today, so yesterday's spiritual leaders of many civilizations recorded the accounts, from their own perspective of what they believed to be true about God.

(Q)

12-28-05, 01:20 PM

Medicine*Woman

12-28-05, 07:34 PM

[/QUOTE=jayleew]In that way, if someone were to refute say the fossil record, the theory stands on genetics, astronomy, etc. It is the same way with the concepts and conclusions made in the Bible. They are consistent as a whole, even though tidbits of a part can be refutted and debated. For instance, the Bible says that the righteous shall find heaven.[/QUOTE]
*************
M*W: The 'righteous' are people who are right. It doesn't have anything to do with holiness or piety by today's definitions. The people who are rightfully interpreting the bible will recognize biblical cosmology, or what's in the 'heavens' or the sky like the planets, stars and constellations. Otherwise, all you people have missed the boat.
*************
[/QUOTE]That idea is repeated in scripture in different ways, and if one was to refute an instance, that does not negate the conclusion that the righteous shall find heaven. Do you understand what I mean by specifics not being as important? Maybe specifics is not the right word, but hopefully you get my meaning. Hasty judgement of arguments is a foolish venture because of the medium we use to communicate.[/QUOTE]
*************
M*W: jayleew, you've been the one whose judgment has been the most 'hasty!'. You are unwilling to see the forest for the trees. You are unwilling to see heaven for the skies.
*************
[/QUOTE]The Bible's lineage of characters is historically accurate. We have other evidence which substatiate that those characters existed.[/QUOTE]
*************
M*W: "Historically accurate," my ass. That's a matter for interpretation. Your interpretation is based on man's foolishness. You don't have any idea what the bible is about. "Those characters" never existed as humans. They are characters woven into stories ancient humans told about their interpretations of what they thought were sky beings.
*************
[/QUOTE]"on July 21, 1993, a team of archaeologists led by Prof. Avraham Biran, excavating Tel Dan in the northern Galilee, found a triangular piece of basalt rock, measuring 23 x 36 cm. inscribed in Aramaic. It was subsequently identified as part of a victory pillar erected by the king of Syria and later smashed by an Israelite ruler. The inscription, which dates to the ninth century bce, that is to say, about a century after David was thought to have ruled Israel, includes the words Beit David ("House" or "Dynasty" of David"). It is the first near-contemporaneous reference to David ever found. It is not conclusive; but it does strongly indicate that a king called David established a dynasty in Israel during the relevant period."[/QUOTE]
*************
M*W: David (probably another astrological being) was said to have ruled Israel around 1000 BC. The "house of David" clearly has an astrological meaning. The 12 tribes of Israel refer to the 12 signs of the zodiac. Beth-le-hem means the "house of bread," usually referring to the Sign of Virgo who holds the shafts of wheat. There are many references to bread in the bible, and all references refer to the Sign of Virgo.
*************
[/QUOTE]"The archaeological supports in the case of Jesus’ greatest follower, Paul of Tarsus, are especially impressive. Ruins in Cyprus, Galatia, Philippi, Thessalonica, Berea, Athens, Corinth, Ephesus, Rome and elsewhere all bear out the many references about Paul in the New Testament.[/QUOTE]
*************
M*W: Paul was probably not a real person either. Tarsus is just too close to "Taurus" and "Alpha Centauri" to be denied. The reference to Paul being blinded by Jesus (or the sunlight) on the "road to Damascus," is easy to interpret. Even though Damascus is a real place today, I believe it has astrological connotations.
*************
[/QUOTE]As hard evidence from the past, "the very stones cry out" the reliability of the Biblical record. It is amusing to note that many of the last century’s most trenchant critics of Jesus and the New Testament refused at first even to consider the result of archaeology, so counter to their opinions was its evidence! Today, I can’t imagine anyone, friend or foe of the faith, would be stupid enough to hold so foolish an attitude."[/QUOTE]
*************
M*W: There is really no "hard evidence" of the biblical past. The only evidence we have pre-dates Israel and even Egypt. I would love to see some true biblical evidence that could be attributed to the Jews that DIDN'T have astrological connotations. I've studied this subject for years, and as has already been determined, the Exodus never took place. (Oh, I almost forgot, you've seen the Egyptian chariot wheels at the bottom of the Red Sea). Well, that just doesn't convince me. The Exodus was most likely the movement of the planets, stars or constellations. Try reading your bible the way it was written -- as an ancient astrological calendar.

c7ityi_

12-28-05, 08:23 PM

Medicine*Woman

12-28-05, 09:00 PM

M*W, the Bible isn't ONLY about "astrology". There are some clear references to the Zodiac, like the first chapter in Ezekiel where the prophet describes the faces of God in a vision. Those faces are the 4 main Zodiac signs: lion, ox, eagle (scorpio), "man" (aquarius) He also talks about wheels, and the Zodiac is a wheel. Think about the Zodiac as a color wheel. There are infinite colors, but it can be divided into, 2, 4 and 12 for example. The more "colors", the more accurate.[QUOTE]
*************
M*W: c7ityi_, when did you become an expert on the bible? You keep preaching that god is the self blah blah blah. I understand that philosophy, too.
*************
[QUOTE]The ancients never thought "God" was the sun. Only ignorant people thought so. The ancients also knew that what people called God was the "self". The solar system is a manifestation, a copy, of the "Zodiac", where the sun ("God") is at the center.
*************
M*W: What kind of IQs do you suppose ancient humans had? Probably lower than a chimpanzee's. The zodiac is a copy of the solar system, not the other way around. The ancients did, in fact, believe the sun, moon, elements, planets, stars and constellations to be supernatural forces with powers over them.
*************
If Moses thought that "God" was the sun, then why does he write in the beginning that "God" creates light and the sun? The sun was just a tool for "God" (the "self") And of course, Moses always talked about "God" because it was the word the people understood best.
*************
M*W: You need to read more about Moses. It's unlikely that he wrote the Torah. I believe Moses, too, was a fictional character based on one of the pharaohs. Being a pharaoh, Moses was written about as if he were god, himself, but he was also said to be a sun worshipper. There are at least three writers' accounts of the Pentateuch.
*************
What do you mean astrological CALENDAR? There are references to astrological signs to show at what time things happened, but it's not a calendar. The Bible is much allegory, so it's understood differently by different people.
*************
M*W: A timetable of events occurring in the skies. Oh, for crying out loud, c7ityi_, what the fuck does it matter about the word "calendar?" Yeah, and the bible being understood differently by different people is the very reason their diverse misintrepretations are all fucked-up.

I tell you what. You stick to your "god is the self" crapola, and I'll continue my 20+ years of research to try and figure out why the bible is so fucked-up.

c7ityi_

12-29-05, 08:27 AM

M*W: What kind of IQs do you suppose ancient humans had? Probably lower than a chimpanzee's.

Some were very intelligent (like moses and other prophets), some were very primitive (like goliat). Prophets were infinitely more "intelligent" than people today. Don't you know about the cross-breeding between the "sons of God" and primitive humans...

The ancients did, in fact, believe the sun, moon, elements, planets, stars and constellations to be supernatural forces with powers over them.

Some did, some did not. But you don't know about the initiates. They taught the primitive humans and they misunderstood everything.

Being a pharaoh, Moses was written about as if he were god, himself, but he was also said to be a sun worshipper.

Moses was "God", just like Jesus was. That's why he said: "I am what I am".

There is not other "god" but "i am" (self, existence/being) within us.

jayleew

12-29-05, 09:32 AM

Science was not what it is today, so yesterday's spiritual leaders of many civilizations recorded the accounts, from their own perspective of what they believed to be true about God.

So, from a spiritual perspective from someone who believes in god, the floods were divine intervention - that would stand to reason. However, from a scientific point of view, those floods were merely floods, no more divine than any other natural disaster.

We can conclude that those spiritual leaders were ignorant and delusional.

Yes, we can conclude that with what we know about God's non-existence, but we can also concluded that because of the different accounts of the same cataclysmic event that, although they made a myth out of the event because of their beliefs, the event ocurred.

jayleew

12-29-05, 11:16 AM

M*W: There is really no "hard evidence" of the biblical past. The only evidence we have pre-dates Israel and even Egypt. I would love to see some true biblical evidence that could be attributed to the Jews that DIDN'T have astrological connotations. I've studied this subject for years, and as has already been determined, the Exodus never took place. (Oh, I almost forgot, you've seen the Egyptian chariot wheels at the bottom of the Red Sea). Well, that just doesn't convince me. The Exodus was most likely the movement of the planets, stars or constellations. Try reading your bible the way it was written -- as an ancient astrological calendar.

The Egyptian chariot wheels are not as convincing as the rest of the geological evidence of the Exodus. Since you are still unwilling to consider any other alternative evidence, and wish to be ignorant of the Bible's accuracy, and watch the video evidence for yourself, here is a condensed recount of the evidence they found by walking the path detailed in the Bible, which leads to the still burnt moutain-top of Mount Sinai; but, these are really just fragments. I am disappointed that they do not give all the details which offer more credible evidence. If only Saudi Arabi was a free nation, we could properly investigate the site without being censored by the Saudi government. You need to watch the video, judge the evidence, then come to me and tell me I am an idiot, at least do me that courtesy.

http://www.baseinstitute.org/Sinai_2.html

It is also unfortunate that we do not have more critiques of Bob Cornuke's findings. The only one I could find is a critique of Paul's shipwreck findings done by Gordon Franz. For that, there is a rebuttal from a gentleman who has lived in Malta and studied the site for the last 15 years, who points out that Gordon inadvertantly helped the case by proving that there is only point where the reef cannot be seen, as detailed in the bible. And that is where the evidence was found.

The only thing I am coming up with as far as opposing viewpoints of the evidence he presents is from people who have never gone to Arabia and examined the evidence. Many traditional scholars, creationists and evolutionists alike, are concerned that because Mr Cornuke doesn't have a degree, that he doesn't know what he's talking about. How arrogant. There have been scholars who look at the pictures and make a judgement without going to the site and investigating and testing the evidence. Some say the burnt rocks are just green limestone crusted granite. Others say that they are volcanic. They shove the evidence under the rug because it doesn't fit their own perspective. Why is that so common? I have never been afraid to go to talkorigins.org or any evidence or information about the origins of life. I actually am becoming more appreciative of the viewpoint of evolutionists because I understand the logic and evidence, but there is not ONE evolutionist here or anywhere (it seems) that is willing to do what Mr Cornuke did and do the investigating and testing.

There is a mental block that is ingrained because they believe so deeply in what they believe. You, MW, are evidence of this mental block that is completely close-minded to any and all evidence that you have not yet watched Cornuke's findings, nor read his book. You discriminate against all evidence if it suggests the proposterous idea that the Bible might be accurate, or that God might exist. It is cultish behavior, to say the least, not to examine all the evidence before making a judgement. Becareful that you are not a lemming jumping off the cliff with the other lemmings, or maybe you don't care.

jayleew

12-29-05, 11:24 AM

I tell you what. You stick to your "god is the self" crapola, and I'll continue my 20+ years of research to try and figure out why the bible is so fucked-up.

Wow! Is that the perspective you take when testing all evidence? :rolleyes: How unscientific.

That's like me thinking, "God exists, so when I read this books Origin of Species, then I have to remember that God exists and this alternate theory is hogwash."

With that attitude, you have wasted 20+ years of research because it is biased propaganda.

(Q)

12-29-05, 11:49 AM

Medicine*Woman

12-29-05, 12:13 PM

jayleew

12-29-05, 12:25 PM

Yes, we can conclude that with what we know about God's non-existence, but we can also concluded that because of the different accounts of the same cataclysmic event that, although they made a myth out of the event because of their beliefs, the event ocurred.

Perhaps an event occured, and most likely did since we see disasters of this kind in various parts of the world, but those who witnessed them back then blew the stories well out of proportion as a result of their ignorance to the world around them and their religious beliefs. unfortunately, we now have people today gobbling up those stories as if they were true.

Yes, there are those who are gullible enough on both sides of the coin, who read compelling arguments without question, and they become passionate about their beliefs.

Here's where we differ: I had heard that God exists, I weighed the evidence and doubted God's existence, then God proved me wrong. Since I have been shown first that God exists, I believe that the alleged myths in the Bible are precisely true, but maybe not so accurate because of many human fallacies.

(Q)

12-29-05, 12:57 PM

jayleew

12-29-05, 01:35 PM

jayleew: The Egyptian chariot wheels are not as convincing as the rest of the geological evidence of the Exodus.
*************
M*W: There has been absolutely NO EVIDENCE of the exodus found anywhere by degreed, scientific biblical scholars and archeologists. NONE. NADA. The lack of this evidence has been published in Biblical Archeology Review. There have been many researchers of all kinds of backgrounds who have tried to prove the exodus happened but came up with nothing, not even one little shard of evidence. I believe the "exodus" to be some kind of transit through the Sign of Taurus where the story refers to the 'golden calf.' The Sign of Taurus occurred during the alleged time of Moses.
*************

Why does one have to be degreed to be credible? If they have evidence, it needs to be examined. Not many credible sources are willing to look at the evidence. There is evidence, but the pompous scientific community is not willing to go into Saudi Arabi illegally. If they go in legally (the king will not allow it), they will come back empty handed.

The evidence is all pointed out from Mr Cornuke's investigation, waiting for the scientific community to test.

The ones that did look, all looked in the wrong place, at the traditional Mt. Sinai, where there is nothing. It is barren. There is a ton of evidence following scripture Saudi Arabi. The whole trek can be pieced together by the landmarks described in the Bible. How can that be refutted, especially if one does not examine the evidence first? Who better to know the history of a region than the people who inhabit the region. The people around Jabal al Lawz will tell you that Moses came through there and show you the caves where Moses wrote on the walls, while leading the Isrealites out of Egypt.

jayleew: Since you are still unwilling to consider any other alternative evidence, and wish to be ignorant of the Bible's accuracy, and watch the video evidence for yourself, here is a condensed recount of the evidence they found by walking the path detailed in the Bible, which leads to the still burnt moutain-top of Mount Sinai; but, these are really just fragments.
*************
M*W: I am not unwillling to consider alternative evidence. You need to present it. Thus far, you haven't presented any credible evidence.

The "bible's accuracy" is debatable. I don't agree with the way you interpret it, and you don't like the way I interpret it. All that means is that we are both wrong or that one of us might be right. You believe in the christian interpretation. I do not. The christian interpretation has cost the lives of many over the past 2000 years only to result in some 34,000 offshoot cults, one at least of which you are a member. My interpretation hasn't taken one life and no additional man-made religions have been formed to confuse or control humans.

Your interpretation hasn't taken one life that you are aware of. Some follow a religion called atheism. Don't misunderstand me, you can be an atheist and not follow atheism. My point is that your interpretation has create additional man-made religions. Your interpretation is the cause of many supernatural beliefs from Wicca to Astrology. You are not blameless, you are human like me.

As far as evidence. Watch the video or read the book. I have provided it. It is up to you to examine it. And, you are indeed a gullible lemming if you have that much faith in a piece of paper that says, "PhD". I have been a student for over 10 years, studying at 3 accredited universities and 1 community college. I have entered two different degree programs, but am finally going to finish the first one next year. (And no, I don't think they give refunds to idiots like me)

I have learned that someone always knows more than me, whether they have a degree or not. Education is just as useless as it is invaluable. The best part about it is learning to open your mind and to be wise.

So, it is you who are ignorant of the evidence provided of the Exodus account, and only because the author does not have degree. :rolleyes:

As I recall from one of your earlier posts, the "paths" you refer, published in your KJV, were totally inaccurate. No wonder there is so much dissention in your religion.
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:confused:

jayleew: I am disappointed that they do not give all the details which offer more credible evidence. If only Saudi Arabi was a free nation, we could properly investigate the site without being censored by the Saudi government. You need to watch the video, judge the evidence, then come to me and tell me I am an idiot, at least do me that courtesy.
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M*W: I don't have to watch the video to tell you you're an idiot.
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That's a cop-out answer. You're avoiding the fact that you have a closed mind on the issue. It is unfortunate that you cannot be more scientific and lay aside your religion long enough to look at all the evidence objectively.

M*W: When a person goes to look for something, everything he finds is going to look like he's found proof. That's wishful thinking. Wishful thinking is not credible evidence. Paul's shipwreck is fiction. You have probably wasted your time reading religious fiction.

Sure, if they are biased. I have some compelling arguments and evidence that disprove evidence that supports the Bible's accounts. For instance, Dr. Micael BeHe is known for studying biogenetics to prove a designer is required because of the complexity as well as many other things. But, I also found a rebuttal of Behe's work that I accept. For now, Behe's work is refuted. I also have read compelling information on talkorigins.org and other sites quoted from forum users. I understand how theists look to the scientific community and/or a logical mind. I have weighed all the evidence and speaks for itself. In the face of all logic, God proved himself to me over and over again. Each time I dismissed the infinite number of coincidences became harder, until i reached the breaking point where I had no choice but to conclude that there is a God. But, I am a natural skeptic that I don't even trust myself. When I am presented with new evidence, I must evaluate it and weigh it. All evidence deserves scrutiny. I am sorry you disagree.

If I were to claim that the Ark of the Covenant was buried in my backyard, and I set out to digging, I could come up with evidential artifacts to show that I had found the Ark. All you gullible christians would believe me, because you're desperate to believe anything that would prove your religion the one true religion. Undoubtedly, the news media would be over here in a flash wanting to see the evidence, and it would be all over the evening news. I'd probably get rich off of it, write a book or two, build a shrine in my backyard, and you gullible christians would start pushing and shoving in my backyard to get your chance at a healing miracle. Next thing you'd see would be churches of Medicine*Womanism springing up all over the place. And guess what? There'd be more digging in my neighbor's backyard, and he'd become famous, too. Zero from zero leaves zero. Bunk from bunk leaves bunk. All religion is bunk.
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You are right. For a time, you would make money. But, like Ron Wyatt, everything would come out in the wash.

jayleew: The only thing I am coming up with as far as opposing viewpoints of the evidence he presents is from people who have never gone to Arabia and examined the evidence. Many traditional scholars, creationists and evolutionists alike, are concerned that because Mr Cornuke doesn't have a degree, that he doesn't know what he's talking about. How arrogant.
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M*W: A degree often is not worth the paper it is printed on. All a degree does is hopefully give the bearer the ability to think for himself and pursue his endeavors.
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Yet, you have a double standard because Mr Cornuke does not have a degree. If he only had credibility, you would take a look at his book or video. Will you be the first to expose Mr. Cornuke as a fraud? Won't happen until you examine the evidence.

jayleew: There have been scholars who look at the pictures and make a judgement without going to the site and investigating and testing the evidence. Some say the burnt rocks are just green limestone crusted granite. Others say that they are volcanic. They shove the evidence under the rug because it doesn't fit their own perspective. Why is that so common? I have never been afraid to go to talkorigins.org or any evidence or information about the origins of life. I actually am becoming more appreciative of the viewpoint of evolutionists because I understand the logic and evidence, but there is not ONE evolutionist here or anywhere (it seems) that is willing to do what Mr Cornuke did and do the investigating and testing.
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M*W: Pictures and evidence are not the same thing.
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They are not necessarily, but they can be. And, unless someone goes over to Saudi Arabia and performs a thorough study of the evidence, it very likely could be evidence. It is like taking a picture of a fossil. The picture is a lead, and the actual fossil is open to scrutiny. Evidence doesn't become such if ignored as you do.

jayleew: There is a mental block that is ingrained because they believe so deeply in what they believe. You, MW, are evidence of this mental block that is completely close-minded to any and all evidence that you have not yet watched Cornuke's findings, nor read his book. You discriminate against all evidence if it suggests the proposterous idea that the Bible might be accurate, or that God might exist. It is cultish behavior, to say the least, not to examine all the evidence before making a judgement. Becareful that you are not a lemming jumping off the cliff with the other lemmings, or maybe you don't care.
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M*W: Honest researchers seeking evidence are impartial to their findings. Yes, I do have a mental block to the bible as it is interpreted and to man-made religions, which they all are. There was a time I searched for truth in the bible and believed it to be true because I was looking for it, so it must really be there. Then I found out it wasn't, and the whole system of christianity had visciously lied to billions of people, myself included. I don't fraterinize with liars. You, however, are in the billions that do.

Then, you are as unreasonable as a zealot, and you think you have reached the truth. Until we die, we will never know the truth. And when we're dead it doesn't matter. All we have is today.

If you are unwilling to look at the evidence because of your bias, we have nothing further to discuss.

jayleew

12-29-05, 01:36 PM

jayleew

12-29-05, 01:50 PM

Since I have been shown first that God exists, I believe that the alleged myths in the Bible are precisely true, but maybe not so accurate because of many human fallacies.

How have you been shown god exists? What evidence do you have?

My life's journal. I tried God an infinite number of times. The years that I didn't believe, with hindsight I see he was there. I remember the years I faked it, and he was there. It's funny I remember after I came through a situation (whether I chose God's way or my way), I would say, "Nah, it was just coincidence. That is not proof of God's existence." With an infinite number of those that relate and build upon one another, I can only make the conclusion that God does exist. That combined with Pascal's Wager, the best choice is to believe...after that the holy spirit delivers the peace, which drives my emotions of love and joy. The only way I can prove God's existence is to open my life. Since I did not keep a record as some do, I have no evidence for you to appease your senses. Besides, my journal still would not be reasonable proof against the mountain of evidence that science has. Hate to leave you hanging, but your belief is between you and God. Communication is a two-way street, and I know that God was "communicating" even in my disbelief. No one can show you proof of God, but God...unless you are gullible. If you are gullible, just go to church and you will have your proof.

(Q)

12-29-05, 02:23 PM

jayleew

12-29-05, 02:42 PM

jayleew

I don't see anything in your post indicating a god could possibly exist other than your own need to believe in a god or what you've conceived from your imagination.

Pascals wager? No, the best choice is not to believe in things that have never been shown to exist. If so, you should also believe in dragons, fairies, unicorns, etc.

But, the dragons an fairies aren't in control of my destiny. If there was a god and it was the god of Moses and the Bible was the written human interpretations of the desires of God for us, the Bible claims that our eternal destiny awaits be it heaven or hell, depending on our belief in the sacrifice for our sins. In other words, Pascal's wager, concerning God, has teeth.

Believing in dragons and fairies has no consequences, so there is no Pascal's wager.

Still, that is only part of the reason I believe. The other part is my experiences. You and I know I don't have proof of God. But, I believe because I have seen the workings of God. So many times I dismissed them, because I am a skeptic. From getting money from a non-religious organization that I didn't expect, just at the right time when I needed that exact amount, to the time when I wrote a letter to my boss for a job change, and the same day shown I need to change the letter because of the same things going on in everyone's mind that day. Sure, coincidences. Multiply that times infinity, and I would be insane to think that it is all coincidence. Many times I've prayed for intervention, other times not. But, God is always there, however rudely I am awakened by his presence. If there was no God, I would have literally have died a long time ago.

I've completely stopped worrying so much, because things have a way of working themselves out for me. Miracle upon miracle. I just do as I'm led, and it amazes me that God is still there, through it all. The Christian life is the life of peace and love, and I love it!

(Q)

12-29-05, 02:49 PM

From getting money from a non-religious organization that I didn't expect, just at the right time when I needed that exact amount, to the time when I wrote a letter to my boss for a job change, and the same day shown I need to change the letter because of the same things going on in everyone's mind that day. Sure, coincidences. Multiply that times infinity, and I would be insane to think that it is all coincidence.

No, jayleew, it is the other way round, you would be insane to think they were not coincidences and that those situations were controlled by a supernatural being. And I don't think you need to apply infinity here, right?

If there was no God, I would have literally have died a long time ago.

I seriously doubt that.

So, things happen that make you happy. What about all the horrible things that happen which would make one seriously question a gods existence? Many innocent children and people die every day from that which they have no control, is that also gods doing?

If you were born and lived in Iraq, would you be a Christian?

jayleew

12-30-05, 10:09 AM

No, jayleew, it is the other way round, you would be insane to think they were not coincidences and that those situations were controlled by a supernatural being. And I don't think you need to apply infinity here, right?

The infinity is important because if the coincidences were finite, then they would be just coincidences. Also, their relation is important. I have had a finite amount (too many to count) of God experiences and since I experience a new one at least every month, then I will have an infinite number of them before I die.

So, things happen that make you happy. What about all the horrible things that happen which would make one seriously question a gods existence? Many innocent children and people die every day from that which they have no control, is that also gods doing?

If you were born and lived in Iraq, would you be a Christian?

All things work together for the good. It is all a matter of perspective. Every bad situation that I've been through (some I got so frustrated with God that I begin to dispair) turns out okay. I manage to get through it, sometimes on my own strength, but in hindsight I gain God's perspective and realize that using my own strength was the hard way, that I could have done X, which happens to follow scriptural teaching, and not had to flouder.

As far as innocent goes, morality is subjective. First, we must define innocent, then judge if the children or people adhere to the definition. Then, we also must look at who is responsible: the guardians. Be them governmental leadership or parents, we must confirm if they are responsible for the deaths.

According to the Bible, sin is sin to God, and killing innocents is the same thing as telling a lie. So, God does not take you until you have reached your part in the story is complete. When children are dying perhaps it is your job to do something about it. God has a plan for all of us, but that doesn't mean we have to follow it. He just gives the opprotunities by not intervening. If God didn't want us to be actively working for him, he would intervene.

If God was to intervene in our lives and directly answer prayers and stop all injustice, that would impede free will. There are times when he does intervene, but not often at all.

Besides, if injustice did not exist, how could you define justice?

Injustice exists when someone is selfish. Unfortunately, free will is a double-edged sword, so people are allowed to be selfish. But, some folks can't see past that, and understand that God will use death so that others may live.

Sarkus

12-30-05, 10:34 AM

The infinity is important because if the coincidences were finite, then they would be just coincidences. Also, their relation is important. I have had a finite amount (too many to count) of God experiences and since I experience a new one at least every month, then I will have an infinite number of them before I die.I think someone needs to grasp the idea of what "infinite" actually means.

It is all a matter of perspective.
Belief in God is just a matter of perspective...
You obviously have a need for God, and so from your perspective you see your God in everything, reinforcing your belief.

Every bad situation that I've been through .... turns out okay.Welcome to reality.

I manage to get through it, sometimes on my own strength, but in hindsight I gain God's perspective and realize that using my own strength was the hard way, that I could have done X, which happens to follow scriptural teaching, and not had to flouder.Again - you're just overlaying your need for God onto everything you do.
You now see God in everything that you cannot comprehend that you are actually doing these things yourself - and that your belief in God is nothing but a tool that you are using to help your psychological state, and that following the scriptures is nothing but following a "self-help" book full of mostly common-sense ideas.

As far as innocent goes, morality is objective.Bollox. Morality is utterly subjective, defined by the masses.

I can't be arsed to read the rest of the dribble.
Needless to say that I think you are utterly blinkered by this God-figure that you have created and allowed to be created through the religion you follow. Undoubtedly your psyche needed a crutch to help it at stages through your life. If it works for you then great - but there are other ways to live than through brainwashed devotion to something as existent as everything else for which there is zip/zero evidence.

jayleew

12-30-05, 11:48 AM

I think someone needs to grasp the idea of what "infinite" actually means.

Stop creating smoke clouds and distracting the issue. I have used infinite appropriately. If I lived forever, I would continue having God experiences forever, or infinitely.

Belief in God is just a matter of perspective...
You obviously have a need for God, and so from your perspective you see your God in everything, reinforcing your belief.

Nope, I can live without God. Done it, do it, don't prefer it because humans are not perfect.

As far as experiencing life, it is a matter of perspective like you said. If God exists or not, believing is a matter of perspective.

Again - you're just overlaying your need for God onto everything you do.
You now see God in everything that you cannot comprehend that you are actually doing these things yourself - and that your belief in God is nothing but a tool that you are using to help your psychological state, and that following the scriptures is nothing but following a "self-help" book full of mostly common-sense ideas.

You trust your own perception too much.

Bollox. Morality is utterly subjective, defined by the masses.

Sorry, I meant subjective. I'll fix.

I can't be arsed to read the rest of the dribble.
Needless to say that I think you are utterly blinkered by this God-figure that you have created and allowed to be created through the religion you follow. Undoubtedly your psyche needed a crutch to help it at stages through your life. If it works for you then great - but there are other ways to live than through brainwashed devotion to something as existent as everything else for which there is zip/zero evidence.

Not asking you to do anything. Put me on ignore.

Yes, there are other ways to live. Oh, Sarkus I wished I was brainwashed. But I am skeptical of everything because of life has made me wise. I don't trust any "truth", and I am not surprised by human imperfection no matter how big the man. In short, I've been taught by man to distrust man. The only thing that has been true all along is God. One of at least a hundred reasons I distrust man is that I was taught that evolution was how all life came to be. That is a supported theory, but hardly fact, and after a long debate with at least two members on this forum they will agree that it is the only solution that has evidence and so must be true. Good logic and for scientific purposes safe to assume, but still not fact. I don't trust research or evidence until it has been beaten, chewed up, and processed. So many studies are refuted after finding a flaw in the experiment. Flaw after flaw. We're not perfect, and that is the problem. Yesterday we said that the world was flat. Today we say it's round. Science advances, but in order for it to advance most times requires it to destroy what was called fact days before. There are so many influences like power, politics, and money that can muddle research and make a lie into a truth. Have you ever looked into the linked effects of Nutrasweet, and how it achieved the America's FDA approval? Flaw after flaw, I don't trust anything. I am the opposite of brainwashed. The only thing science has proven to me is that it is fact only until the next experiment is performed,