I am a disbeliever in intelligent-design, but i often catch myself caught up in my own philosophy. Wether i'm conflicted between my knowledge in the theoretical sciences, or how religion (past/present) has clashed with many versions of applied ethics. I find myself caught in a bind when i deny the existance of an omnipotent being, and find my self confronted with what i percieve as evil. I say to myself if there is evil in this universe that cannot be explained through current day Psycho-analysis and neurological data. Then how can i not believe in an opposite existence whether it be parallel, celestial or down right corporeal!

My quandry is all assuming that A) true evil does exist. B) After we die are faits are more than just means of energy transfer :) C. I'm not crazy and or Afraid of demons :rolleyes:

Anyway i vote for NO guy pulling the strings hidden above the clouds

Evil, I think is just a perception of any society that has to learn to live together in a civilisation. I don't think this has anything to with God, and certainly not exclusive to religion...

By the way it's ok to get caught up in philisophical musings over a creator, so long as you don't narrow your mind to the very black and white rules of religion.

the 'problem' as i see it is clear. both sides evolutionists verses intelligent design BOTH deny sentience---ie., both deny Nature is intelligent....what dos tis denial do?

well, when you read the belief systems that come from it, ie., patriarchal mythology, religion, and materialistic science. they all divide up polar relted opposites...so for instance, in mytholoy --patriarchal--we have te division between Nature an 'spirit. be tween heaven and earth, good and bad etc...pife and death
and wit materialistic sciene also, we have te'mind/body problem'---and the general belief in the 'deadness' of matter/energy

so this is a major cluie to where we are at now. we are part of a long long linear path which denigrates Nature

okkk. tink what is evil. think of the Holocaust, or any happening where pople are degraded/ see the pattern of it. with rte former we have te dehumanization ofpeple. stripped naked, shaved, numbered.....right?
tis is to degrade them andjustify treting temmlike ....animals. worse than

now thinknof animals. and think of animal vivisection. tis is done cause animals are believed to be less tan human. almost machine like

now tink of Nature. it isseen as mere commodity. dead. and look what is happening to it


so all this is showing a pattern which is refelcted in the myth of seeing Nature as dead.....this utter ighnore-ance can be seen as evil. and rally it is not evil in te Christian dualistic sense. i is evil in that themindset holds fast to its idea of 'good'!

this isnt about nature, duendy.

its about the existence of a creator of the universe. nature is a creation of the universe, so it falls 2 steps below the conversational topic.

this isnt about nature, duendy.

its about the existence of a creator of the universe. nature is a creation of the universe, so it falls 2 steps below the conversational topic.
oh my shit...you really do believe what you are saying dont you???? thought that shit about 'angels' in other thread was some kindof humour.....

seems yur stuck on that old patriarchal chestnut 'The Great Chain of Being' right, where universe is arranged as a military-like hierarchy, and Nature is at bottom, right?

it is FASCIST!...Rudolf Steiner and nazis were into all that rubbish. as are many New Agers

i am not into all that at all at all. it is very very ugly.

I a saying to you. Nature is where you ARE...it feeds you, shelters you, waters you, you ARE Nature. 'God', however' a is definewd in patriarchal myth, is really a manmade creation. and of course is made in man's image. the mindset which is warrior-obsessed, anti-Nature, anti-Feminine, and fears Nature

haha....
no, im not "stuck" in anything. i was stating that the thread is about G-d, not nature. this thread is for a specific topic, not rantings about something else. nature really has no place in a discussion about what you call "patriarchal myth", now does it?

just say you dont believe in G-d, and be done with it.

and just so you know, my particular belief is that G-d transcends gender...you throw the accusation of me being stuck in a fascist belief that holds the feminine down, but you have no idea really, what i believe.

also, steiner is a subject i have studied in great detail, and it seems you have no idea at all what he taught. again, you just wildly throw names and terms around like you know what you are talking about.

nature exists INSIDE of the universe, therefore it would be more relevant to discuss the universe itself...since the thread is about G-d.

get out of your own rut before trying to throw others into it, thats my suggestion.

btw: the thing with the angels was stupid beyond belief. get over yourself and your "holier than thou" attitude.

added note: fascist was misused in your post, duendy.... fascism is corporate control over a state or government.

haha....
no, im not "stuck" in anything. i was stating that the thread is about G-d, not nature. this thread is for a specific topic, not rantings about something else. nature really has no place in a discussion about what you call "patriarchal myth", now does it?

me))))cause it fukin has..... are yer mad? you believe yu can get awaywith that one. tat's what thepatriarchy try to do from day one. push Nature 'down there'. well i aint gonna stand for that attitude g-d man. i spos you type it like that 'G-d' cause u imagine it's 'HIS' sacred name...?

just say you dont believe in G-d, and be done with it.

me))))))no. ypu not-wanting-to-understand person. i didn't say i dont believe in the mythical need of 'god' as representing masculine energy. this eas well covered in GODDESS mythology, where god is the ever-living ever-dying ever-regenerating son/lover/consort of the Goddess. that god was demonized by your sky-god 'God', whp yu spell 'G-d'. he's a bleedin upstart eee is!


and just so you know, my particular belief is that G-d transcends gender...you throw the accusation of me being stuck in a fascist belief that holds the feminine down, but you have no idea really, what i believe.

me)))it is plain by what you errr...say?

also, steiner is a subject i have studied in great detail, and it seems you have no idea at all what he taught. again, you just wildly throw names and terms around like you know what you are talking about.

me))yeaaaaah, tought you'd be familiar with him and defend him. like i said. i am readin yer words. what else cn we do here. cant see yer face can i??

nature exists INSIDE of the universe, therefore it would be more relevant to discuss the universe itself...since the thread is about G-d.

me))))))what you mean 'inside of the universe'?? why cant you ee a continuum between this plant and universe. i havea freaky feelin your 'inside' is your 'universe' and 'G-d' claiming to again be better than 'Nature'

get out of your own rut before trying to throw others into it, thats my suggestion.

me)))i am seeing you in a rut. live with it

btw: the thing with the angels was stupid beyond belief. get over yourself and your "holier than thou" attitude.
MY hoiler than tou attitude you hmourless Steinerist you?

im not a follower of the teachings of Steiner. i just happen to know alot of what he said.

i think im done talking with you, as you respond to REASON with preaching.
i thought preaching was against the rules here? we have gotten waaaaay off topic, and i would like to discuss the issue, not duendy's off topic beliefs, please.

im not a follower of the teachings of Steiner. i just happen to know alot of what he said.

me_____yes i know. studied himin detail an all that

i think im done talking with you, as you respond to REASON with preaching.

me))REASON? where have you given us any reason. please explain fully?? and your preachin to me tellinme i cant speak of Nature and must stik wid yur 'G-d'...!
so dont come it.

i thought preaching was against the rules here?

me))yeaahhh. so ya better watch it!

we have gotten waaaaay off topic, and i would like to discuss the issue, not duendy's off topic beliefs, please.
you are discussin your own agenda and trying to fascistically rule this thread. stop it an behave yerself.

please...at least use the word fascist in a proper context if you want to insult me.

please...at least use the word fascist in a proper context if you want to insult me.
great jumpinjesus dont yu retreat fro m debate.what yu afriad of.....Nature?

let me get this clear. you are saying any discussion about 'G-d' cant include Nature. is this correct...??

i said that nature is not G-d, as it is a creation of the universe. nature is the random, natural swirlings of atoms throughout creation. that is not G-d.
this is a thread about whether there is a creator. nature did not create itself, as nature is not capable of producing energy. nature is the victim of energy.
therefore, nature has no place in this discussion.
can we PLEAAAAAAAAASE get back on topic?

Wow, so how do feel about a higher existence :confused:

i said that nature is not G-d, as it is a creation of the universe.

me))))))EVERYONE eth gather theee round, fo r The Devil Isiide he doth spek form the mouthe of G-d'/.....! likeerrr yeah

nature is the random, natural swirlings of atoms throughout creation. that is not G-d.
me)))oh i see. just like that. andhow do you KNOW this?

this is a thread about whether there is a creator. nature did not create itself, as nature is not capable of producing energy.

me))BSHITE

nature is the victim of energy.
therefore, nature has no place in this discussion.
can we PLEAAAAAAAAASE get back on topic?
no. cause you are talkin baloney. dont think you can comehere nd hijack teplace wid your absurd rants witout getting challenged about tem. stamp all you wanna. i aint going nowhere

Now i am going to hve MY say, amd i encourage everyone who wants to take part in this OPEN debate--mr godless inside--not to be intimidated by this poster.

Actaully i it decidedly looking that Nature is very much alive and well thankyou very much. is Inteliigenct and doesn't NEED being directed by some outside agency you term 'G-d- in your Steinerian cosmology,,,,,,

so, understading where I AM coming from Artofwar, i reply to you question that a 'higher existence' is awareness of interdimensionality. i prefer 'deeper existence cause te patriarchy always place what they impose as the 'pure' in the sky/heavens/stella regions, thus de-grading Nature. so a deewper understanding is seeing right thru such propaganda. it is popaganda for power. to cut you me off from Nature, our roots, and then substitute THEIR oppressive authority over the individual and Nature..........

i am not a follower of Steiner...or cant you read my above posts?
no, you probably cant..since you seem incapable of typing a fucking sentence without misspelling every single thing.
i am waiting for a moderator to start deleting your posts, as what you are doing amounts to name calling, at its lowest form.
goodbye for a few days.

There is no evil in the universe, and there is no good. Both are notions thought up by man which correlate to real things, though. Evil is basically anything that is detrimental to humanity (or rather, to a specific group of humanity which one feels association to, their nation). Good is what helps that population. It is actually a very efficient method of looking at things, but has gotten extremely out of hand. People interpret the meanings of good and evil very widely and often incorrectly, making decisions based on their interpretations that actually cause much harm, rather than good.

Now i am going to hve MY say, amd i encourage everyone who wants to take part in this OPEN debate--mr godless inside--not to be intimidated by this poster.

i think you have had more than enough of your say. why don't you let others speak?

Yeh this thread has gone to Hell. I change the question, is there a God of the message boards? Ooops almost forgot about the Administrator, and the the Cohorts/Angels (Mod's Cough...)

I believe that there is a God. It's mostly through faith that I believe but there's also evidence that supports most of the stuff in the Bible. A lot of the prophecies have come true, the Bible talks about how the Earth is floating in space, and it talks about other scientific stuff. How the heck would anyone know all that stuff back then when they had no equipment to go into space to see for themselves and telescopes weren't invented until 1000-2000 years later?

I believe that there is a God. It's mostly through faith that I believe but there's also evidence that supports most of the stuff in the Bible. A lot of the prophecies have come true, the Bible talks about how the Earth is floating in space, and it talks about other scientific stuff. How the heck would anyone know all that stuff back then when they had no equipment to go into space to see for themselves and telescopes weren't invented until 1000-2000 years later?
name one prophecy that has come true!

bible has been wrong about everything from the age of the earth to the floodgates in the sky that god opens to let the rain fall,its a book of silly stories invented by the ancients who knew nothing about how nature works.

seeing the moon and stars in the sky obviously gave them idea that earth is a planet too,makes sense,the rest of it is just fantasy,and bible is so full of contradictions its sad to see anyone take it seriously today
www.skepticsannotatedbible.com

imo god can not exist
the only forces in nature are natural.

Life or no life

I believe that there is a God. It's mostly through faith that I believe but there's also evidence that supports most of the stuff in the Bible. A lot of the prophecies have come true, the Bible talks about how the Earth is floating in space, and it talks about other scientific stuff. How the heck would anyone know all that stuff back then when they had no equipment to go into space to see for themselves and telescopes weren't invented until 1000-2000 years later?

Care to go into more detail, and show us the 'evidence'?

My quandry is all assuming that A) true evil does exist. B) After we die are faits are more than just means of energy transfer :) C. I'm not crazy and or Afraid of demons :rolleyes:

Hi,

A) This may be the biggest part of the quandry. In reality, there is no such thing as 'good' or 'evil'. They're just labels people and soceities give to various human behaviors / natural events and they change drastically over time.

B) There is no evidence to suggest that our conciousness persists after we die. There is lots of evidence that supports conciousness being a function of the human body (the brain specifically).

C) Nope, not at all. :)

Yeh this thread has gone to Hell. I change the question, is there a God of the message boards? Ooops almost forgot about the Administrator, and the the Cohorts/Angels (Mod's Cough...)

Welcome to the board, don't worry too much about our mods their very open minded & liberal when it comes to adhominems, assumptions, accusations, and the occasional flame war. :o

Other than that, there's no preaching tolerated, though many theist do so, with little supervision and disregard to that one rule, I know of. But hey! they are opened for scrutiny just like anyone who makes any claim that cant be proven.

Godless

you know, as well as i do....the non-theists preach just as much as the religious/spiritual folks :)

im glad to see the topic get back onto track (sort of)

Hi,

A) This may be the biggest part of the quandry. In reality, there is no such thing as 'good' or 'evil'. They're just labels people and soceities give to various human behaviors / natural events and they change drastically over time.

B) There is no evidence to suggest that our conciousness persists after we die. There is lots of evidence that supports conciousness being a function of the human body (the brain specifically).

C) Nope, not at all. :)

i agree with "A", crunchy cat. it is a matter of subjective, personal reality.

"B" is a little more open to debate. i have seen many instances of evidence for life after death. personal experiences alone tell me that such a thing is not only possible, but probable. the thing is, i dont think that my job is to convince people of things that i have no solid evidence of. *shrug*
such is the quandary i am in....
peace

i think you have had more than enough of your say. why don't you let others speak?
oh DO you think that? well you posted it didn't you? andi didn't stop you did I..??
so what are you meaning 'why dontyou let others speak?'....pleaselet me know how i can STOP others speaking here?

just stop arguing with people for the sake of arguing, and discuss the topic, please.

name one prophecy that has come true!

bible has been wrong about everything from the age of the earth to the floodgates in the sky that god opens to let the rain fall,its a book of silly stories invented by the ancients who knew nothing about how nature works.

seeing the moon and stars in the sky obviously gave them idea that earth is a planet too,makes sense,the rest of it is just fantasy,and bible is so full of contradictions its sad to see anyone take it seriously today
www.skepticsannotatedbible.com
Every thing in Bible is not correct, I agree ok
But is it enough to deny the exitence of god?

just stop arguing with people for the sake of arguing, and discuss the topic, please.
HAHA... we've got a right shitstirrer with you aint we. first it was YOU who starts laying down the law becaus you dont want your precious worldview ruffled, right. well sunshine, i will challenge what i see as false. YOU dont set the agenda for the way a debate is supposed to be. we all have different views about a subject. thats what makes it interesting, for those with openminds that is. now PLEASSSE get on with the debate and stop arguiin!!!!!

from this point, consider yourself on my "folks to ignore" list. you dont read posts, and you dont care what others say.

when you point a finger, three are pointing right back at you. hello? moderators?! are you going to allow this person to continue this flamewar?

i agree with "A", crunchy cat. it is a matter of subjective, personal reality.

"B" is a little more open to debate. i have seen many instances of evidence for life after death. personal experiences alone tell me that such a thing is not only possible, but probable. the thing is, i dont think that my job is to convince people of things that i have no solid evidence of. *shrug*
such is the quandary i am in....
peace

There are many stories of people clinically dying on operating room tables, having OOBEs / other fantastic experiences, coming back to clinical life and then sharing the experience (sometimes the OOBEs reflect real events that were happening at the time).

My take is that there is knowledge gap concerning what these events are. My hypothesis is that the brain's interpretation engine is still active sometime after clinical death. Supporting points are that:

* When the heart / brain activity stops by our measurement standards, there is still cellular / electrical activity that continues quite some time afterwards. The brain is all about neurons, dendrites, and electrical charge.
* OOBEs can be artifically induced in a controlled environment by reducing the electrical activity in some parts of the brain. Clinical death would likely have a similar affect on electrical activity.
* The process of clinical death, fantastic experiences, and clinical life don't happen when the cause of death is brain damage.

The 'easy' thing to do is say "hey, I experienced a fantastic event after clinical death, it's not a widely researched / understood subject; therefore, this proves life after death is real". This line of thinking is flawed as an incomplete picture doesn't create a void that demands immediate substitution with 'something' (usually some kind of attractive assertion). It puts an opportunity on the table for further exploration.

from this point, consider yourself on my "folks to ignore" list. you dont read posts, and you dont care what others say.

when you point a finger, three are pointing right back at you. hello? moderators?! are you going to allow this person to continue this flamewar?
you little snitch-wimp. aint gonna lose no s;leep not chattin wid u oh great one higher than the angels. i knoooow yuuuur type hah..i'm off!

What are your guys opinions of the theory of ordinary humans like ourselves eventually (on the path) transcending ourselves body & mind on a plane of higher existence? The idea is intriguing, but I have little faith in mankind surviving long enough to accomplish such.

This theory is based on the prospect of superlative beings evolving into Gods of self. The weird thing about my conversations on this topic has been with physicists not “scientologists” who believe in this. Also they do not believe in the Bibles saying that of Man made in the image of God :). Really interesting stuff, but I would also think as an informed scientist you would have to make up your mind as to whether the universe is constantly expanding or will contract and expand continuously.

What are your guys opinions of the theory of ordinary humans like ourselves eventually (on the path) transcending ourselves body & mind on a plane of higher existence?

We are already that higher existence; we'r the top of the food chain. :p

We are the gods of our enviorenment; with minor limitations thus we dont have supernatural powers, then again to the atheist nothing does! ;)

Godless

artofwar,
are you talking about "vibration frequencies" and such?

crunchy cat,
i know what you mean. i have induced obe's in myself using sensory deprivation in the past. in fact, i made my own chamber when i was 16 after seeing the movie "altered states".
fortunately, i didnt devolve into a monkeyman or anything.

the personal experience i have had that i mentioned is actually seeing ghosts physically as a child.
*shrug* but im off to bed now.
your thoughts?

What are your guys opinions of the theory of ordinary humans like ourselves eventually (on the path) transcending ourselves body & mind on a plane of higher existence?

I never heard of this theory before. What evidence is it based on and what predictions does it make?

artofwar,
are you talking about "vibration frequencies" and such?

No, i don't see how the electromagnetic spectrum would affect this, but maybe thatis becasue i haven't given it much thought. It sound liekoyu watched that old movie "powder" i think the name is? :confused: I haven't seen it in a decade, but i remember the guy getting hit with lightning and becoming a radioactive wave or gamma ray :D

crunchy cat,
i know what you mean. i have induced obe's in myself using sensory deprivation in the past. in fact, i made my own chamber when i was 16 after seeing the movie "altered states".
fortunately, i didnt devolve into a monkeyman or anything.

the personal experience i have had that i mentioned is actually seeing ghosts physically as a child.
*shrug* but im off to bed now.
your thoughts?

Wow, 16 and already making your own sensory deprivation chamber :)... although I did some strange things at that age as well... hell I still do strange things and have not turned into a monkeyman either.

When I was a child, I saw a buttload of crazy shit that nobody else did. I finally figured out what it was. Hypnogogic hallucaintion. As an adult, I only experience it sometimes when first waking up or during normal waking hours if I am exceptionally tired. As a child, it was fully integrated into my perception especially between the ages of 2-6.

I would hypothesize that the ghost experience may have been a HH. :)

I never heard of this theory before. What evidence is it based on and what predictions does it make?
well i don't know if it is an actually applied theory, rather a theoretical reasoning or explanation to make sense of an existential presence.

*EDIT*

only thing i could find n the web similar is Exaltation (http://christiandefense.org/mor_exaltation.htm) by the Mormins. though i have never had a conversation in length, that i know of, with an open Mormin :bugeye:

crunchy cat,
maybe thats an explanation, to me, it seems just as likely that i saw ghosts though.
*shrug*

maybe thats an explanation, to me, it seems just as likely that i saw ghosts though.

This was just an illusion. Immidiate recomendation talk to a psychiatrist. You may be becoming delusional.

Godless

well i don't know if it is an actually applied theory, rather a theoretical reasoning or explanation to make sense of an existential presence.

*EDIT*

only thing i could find n the web similar is Exaltation (http://christiandefense.org/mor_exaltation.htm) by the Mormins. though i have never had a conversation in length, that i know of, with an open Mormin :bugeye:

I see... in that case I don't think I understand what's involved with the concept. Maybe it could be explained a little more?

crunchy cat,
maybe thats an explanation, to me, it seems just as likely that i saw ghosts though.
*shrug*

We'll you certainly saw something that's not a common part of reality. Maybe a better question to ask is 'what was that' instead of concluding it's a dead person's conciousness manifesting a photon structure.

:) perhaps.

an orange blob floating around on the back porch of my house. i was completely freaked out.
*shrug*
i was also 12. kinda past the "childish" stage of childhood, but not quite an adult.

godless, i am a very "rooted in reality person", thank you very much. im not anything like half the wackos on this site that claim the same thing.

*sets himself on fire and runs around the room in a peter pan outfit*

:) perhaps.

an orange blob floating around on the back porch of my house. i was completely freaked out.
*shrug*
i was also 12. kinda past the "childish" stage of childhood, but not quite an adult.


How funky! Was it biolumincent, translucent, opaue, constantly 'flowing'? Tell me more man!

it was orange, with a white-ish center orb. the orange around it was like fire, sorta.
it was absolutely opaque. i remember vividly how afraid i was that the porch would catch fire from it. of course, there was no heat. in a panic, i ran to the neighbor's house, and brought them over. of course it was gone by then.

it was orange, with a white-ish center orb. the orange around it was like fire, sorta.
it was absolutely opaque. i remember vividly how afraid i was that the porch would catch fire from it. of course, there was no heat. in a panic, i ran to the neighbor's house, and brought them over. of course it was gone by then.

That's some cool shit. Kind of like a fireball with a white hot center. Did it resemble anything we had seen before in the movies or a video games (ex. the ropes scene from Dragon's Lair)?

lol
nope. i had no idea what i was looking at, and was honestly terrified. i was so afraid i was crying from fear.