Baltimore (AP) - A Kansas group that has drawn criticism for protesting at soldiers' funerals could face its toughest legal challenge yet Monday when the family of a soldier from Westminster, Maryland sues for defamation.


The Westboro Baptist Church in Topeka is being sued by Albert Snyder of Pennsylvania, father of a Marine who died last year.

Church members protested at Lance Corporal Matthew Snyder's funeral and posted pictures of the protest on their Web site.

The church has asked unsuccessfully for Snyder's lawsuit to be dismissed.

Westboro Baptist's protests have inspired more than a dozen states to ban or limit protests at soldiers' funerals.

Church members believe that soldier deaths are God's punishment for the nation accepting homosexuals.

(Copyright 2007 by The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.)

So, here we have a fine example of the sort of good, god-fearing, xians the theists here may or may not sympathize with.

Apparently today, the judgement went against the church to the tune of two million dollars plus other unspecified damages. They're going to appeal it.

Love to hear your opinions on this.

The question I forgot to ask was, why dosen't god just kill the gays outright? Drop em' where they stand and be done with it? And all of the atheists too? And muslims? And heathens of all sorts?

Because God is waiting for a disease to kill them all out, plus God doesn't really care

Because God is waiting for a disease to kill them all out, plus God doesn't really care
Figures. God really isn't all that important, even if he/she/it does exist.

The question I forgot to ask was, why dosen't god just kill the gays outright? Drop em' where they stand and be done with it? And all of the atheists too? And muslims? And heathens of all sorts?
b/c god is an atheist? ;)
does he have a wife??NO...so maybe hes gay too :D

Figures. God really isn't all that important, even if he/she/it does exist.

Well God is important, its just that reality can't exist without God, but God is omnipotent, so how can he be disturbed by all of this?

The question I forgot to ask was, why dosen't god just kill the gays outright? Drop em' where they stand and be done with it? And all of the atheists too? And muslims? And heathens of all sorts?

Because he is longsuffering towards them in the hope that they will eventually repent and accept His forgivness.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

So, here we have a fine example of the sort of good, god-fearing, xians the theists here may or may not sympathize with.

Apparently today, the judgement went against the church to the tune of two million dollars plus other unspecified damages. They're going to appeal it.

Love to hear your opinions on this.

Well they have overlooked that call of Jesus for Christians not to engage in warfare. They are protesting on an issue and overlooking a greater issue.

It's like people protesting about the building of a nuclear power plant because they object to the negative aesthetic effect of the big ugly cooling towers that will be apart of the reactor, while totally overlooking the terrible long term effect that the reactor will have on their descendants and nature.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Well they have overlooked that call of Jesus for Christians not to engage in warfare. They are protesting on an issue and overlooking a greater issue.

It's like people protesting about the building of a nuclear power plant because they object to the negative aesthetic effect of the big ugly cooling towers that will be apart of the reactor, while totally overlooking the terrible long term effect that the reactor will have on their descendants and nature.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
I a bit suprised by all of this.

Do none of you see the human tragedy of having some bunch of fucking assholes come to your sons funeral to flaunt their bigotry and hatred of other humans?

Figures. God really isn't all that important, even if he/she/it does exist.


Exactly. Even if he does exist, why would anyone even give a shit about him after how he has let the earth go to shit like it has? I have no concern for any deity that would let his greatest creation (children) fight and bicker amongst themselves to get favor with him. What a crock!

And super, I saw on CNN this morning that the lawsuit sum was 11 million, not two. But who knows.

While I'm no longer a Christian, I do know plenty of good Christians. These people make Christianity look bad in the same manner that the Taliban and A.Q. make Islam look bad.

11 million, huh? Good. The more the better. Crush them out of existence. And I agree that they are clearly extremist, but for fuck sake? What kind of people are they?

These people make Christianity look bad in the same manner that the Taliban and A.Q. make Islam look bad.

No they dont make Christianity look bad at all. They are NUTS, they are weirdos and they are a handfull of people. The differance is all the other Christians acknowledge this.

Christians, as far as i can tell, are also different from Muslims in that they do what they want, believe what they want and can make ALL their own decisions. I may be wrong about that, but i am not aware of anywhere in the world where Christians are forced to believe or follow specific customs.:shrug:

Well it looks like poor ol Freddie got himself in a big mess, and it's gonna cost $10.8 million. Y'all pass the offering plate ya hear.

I looked up some interesting tidbits on Freddieboy.

First of all he's a democrat:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_phelps#Democratic_Party

Democratic Party
Phelps has run in various Kansas Democratic Party primaries five times, but has never won. These included races for governor in 1990, 1994, and 1998, receiving about 15% of the vote in 1998.[34] In the 1992 Democratic Party primary for U.S. Senate, Phelps received 31% of the vote [35] Phelps ran for mayor of Topeka in 1993 [36] and 1997. [37]

But here's the biggest surprise:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_phelps#Civil_Rights_Attorney

He was a civl rights attorney that fought Jim Crowe laws:

Civil Rights Attorney
Phelps earned a law degree from Washburn University in 1962, and founded the Phelps Chartered law firm in 1964. The first notable cases were of a civil rights nature. "I systematically brought down the Jim Crow laws of this town," he says.[10] Phelps' daughter was quoted as saying, "We took on the Jim Crow establishment, and Kansas did not take that sitting down. They used to shoot our car windows out, screaming we were nigger lovers," and that the Phelps law firm made up one-third of the state’s federal docket of civil-rights cases.[13]

Phelps took cases on behalf of African American clients alleging discrimination by school systems, and a predominately black American Legion post which had been raided by police, alleging racially-based police abuse. Phelps' law firm obtained settlements for some clients.[14]


Well, a fundamentalist sterotype just busted all to pieces.

Fundamentalists are supposed to be slave lovers that deny civil rights to gays. uhhhh yeahhh

So he was fighting for black civil rights in his job and hating gays in his spare time?

That's seriously messed up.

PS Welcome back.

That guy and his whole organization are f*****g nut cases. Not too sound too harsh, but I will celebrate his death.

Phelps says he is an old school Baptist, which includes John Calvin's doctrine of unconditional election, the belief that God has elected certain people for salvation before birth. He says that almost nobody is a member of the elect, and furthermore that he and the members of his congregation (mostly his family) are the only members of the elect, because they are the only ones not afraid to publish the current relevant application of the word of God — in particular, that "God hates fags."
If they're Doomed why would God care what they do?

I'm not too suprised, that guy is a walking contradiction, and stupid enough to follow the Old Testament to the letter.

Well they have overlooked that call of Jesus for Christians not to engage in warfare. They are protesting on an issue and overlooking a greater issue.

It's like people protesting about the building of a nuclear power plant because they object to the negative aesthetic effect of the big ugly cooling towers that will be apart of the reactor, while totally overlooking the terrible long term effect that the reactor will have on their descendants and nature.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
Surely you are not condoning Phelp's behaviour?

Well God is important, its just that reality can't exist without God, but God is omnipotent, so how can he be disturbed by all of this?

Because if he made all of us, he's the one responsible..?

And if God is waiting for gay people to die out from disease why did he create them in the first place ?

11 million, huh? Good. The more the better. Crush them out of existence. And I agree that they are clearly extremist, but for fuck sake? What kind of people are they?

FYI, one of his daughters is in charge of health care in the Kansas prison system. Do you think all inmates get equal treatment?:bugeye:

Originally Posted by Adstar
Well they have overlooked that call of Jesus for Christians not to engage in warfare. They are protesting on an issue and overlooking a greater issue.

It's like people protesting about the building of a nuclear power plant because they object to the negative aesthetic effect of the big ugly cooling towers that will be apart of the reactor, while totally overlooking the terrible long term effect that the reactor will have on their descendants and nature.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
”
Surely you are not condoning Phelp's behaviour?
Did i say anywhere in my post that i condoned the actions of this group?

No i did not.

This leads me to ask you a Question in return.

Why did you even need to ask me that question? Are you so filled with anti-Christian leanings that your mind must twist anything a Christians says to derive the most negative results possible?

Sometimes atheists in this forum display characteristics reminiscent of schizophrenia.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Adstar is absolutely my favorites theist on these forums when it comes to presenting Christianity.

And yes, I'm 100% serious.

FYI, one of his daughters is in charge of health care in the Kansas prison system. Do you think all inmates get equal treatment?:bugeye:

a fair number of his children have done interviews saying they think he is nuts

... if God is waiting for gay people to die out from disease why did he create them in the first place ?

He's not "waiting for gay people to die out from disease." He's not willing that any of them die but that they all repent. i.e. metanoia...in other words, change their mind about their behavior (and it is the same for any human being)...desist from it...thereby diminishing the possibility of them dying prematurely on account of that same behavior. God wants them to live, not die... logically, this is implicit in the act of creation and you appear to understand that.

He's not "waiting for gay people to die out from disease." He's not willing that any of them die but that they all repent. i.e. metanoia...in other words, change their mind about their behavior (and it is the same for any human being)...desist from it...thereby diminishing the possibility of them dying prematurely on account of that same behavior. God wants them to live, not die... logically, this is implicit in the act of creation and you appear to understand that.

Well, God seemed to have changed his mind about a couple of things in between the OT and the NT. Can't he just change his mind again and accept homosexuality?

Well, God seemed to have changed his mind about a couple of things in between the OT and the NT. Can't he just change his mind again and accept homosexuality?

He didn't/hasn't change His mind "between the OT and the NT, you're mistaken.

He didn't/hasn't change His mind "between the OT and the NT, you're mistaken.

One thing I can think of off the top of my head is that God takes an active position in smiting sinners in the OT. Take the destruction of a number of towns, or the global flood. You don't see such behavior in the NT until the very end when God will choose to set up his kingdom on our planet. So he changed his mind about how to deal with sinners, wouldn't you say?

One thing I can think of off the top of my head is that God takes an active position in smiting sinners in the OT. Take the destruction of a number of towns, or the global flood. You don't see such behavior in the NT until the very end when God will choose to set up his kingdom on our planet. So he changed his mind about how to deal with sinners, wouldn't you say?

"Off the top of my head" is no way to deal with/approach such important matters...anyway, no I wouldn't.

Revelation is in the NT, and in 'there' there's a whole lot of smitin' goin' on...looks to me like the same ol' same ol'...

No I wouldn't.

Revelation is in the NT, and in 'there' there's a whole lot of smitin' goin' on.

Yes, and you'll notice that I did mention that. But again, that's not till the very end when judgement is cast on every human soul, unlike in the OT when god smote the living sinners repeatedly. That's certainly a change in behavior.

EDIT: And it being off the top of my head doesn't change that what I bring up is true.

Yes, and you'll notice that I did mention that. But again, that's not till the very end when judgement is cast on every human soul, unlike in the OT when god smote the living sinners repeatedly. That's certainly a change in behavior.

Yes, I did notice...off the top of your head you realised the folly of your original comment no doubt...

Time is not an issue with Him Whom a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day...so, again, you are mistaken....there is no change in His behavior between the OT and the NT.

a fair number of his children have done interviews saying they think he is nuts

2 out of 6 or 7 do think he's nuts. The ratio is a little lower with the grand children. He wasn't as bad as a younger man so his older kids may have gotten away from him. The daughter I was refering to brags about being one of the protesters.

God wants them to live, not die... logically, this is implicit in the act of creation and you appear to understand that.

Did you really mean to use the word "logically" in the same sentence with "act of creation"?:bugeye:

Did you really mean to use the word "logically" in the same sentence with "act of creation"?:bugeye:

And God said...In the beginning was The Word...i.e. LOGOS i.e. the Logic and Means of creation--Jesus Christ Who said He is the Way, The Truth, and The Life.

Yes, I did notice...off the top of your head you realised the folly of your original comment no doubt...

Ooh, zing! You sure got me there Photizo!

Time is not an issue with Him Whom a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day...so, again, you are mistaken....there is no change in His behavior between the OT and the NT.

Time not being an issue for him is irrelevant. He does things in a certain sequence. For example, is it in dispute that he created Adam first, and then Eve? One came after the other.

So, looking at the sequence of smiting, there's certainly a change in God's actions. He used to actively smite living sinners. And now, he doesn't. He won't, not till the very end. That is definitely a change.

Time not being an issue for him is irrelevant. He does things in a certain sequence. For example, is it in dispute that he created Adam first, and then Eve? One came after the other.

So, looking at the sequence of smiting, there's certainly a change in God's actions. He used to actively smite living sinners. And now, he doesn't. He won't, not till the very end. That is definitely a change.

Time not being an issue for Him is relevant, as it lends support to the fact He does not change, change being part of the fabric of time.

It is not in dispute that He created Adam first and then Eve. What's in dispute primarily is if or not God changes between the OT and NT. He does not. What is in dispute secondarily is if or not you are mistaken. You are.

Dispute over.

Time not being an issue for Him is relevant, as it lends support to the fact He does not change, change being part of the fabric of time.

It is not in dispute that He created Adam first and then Eve. What's in dispute primarily is if or not God changes between the OT and NT. He does not. What is in dispute secondarily is if or not you are mistaken. You are.

Dispute over.

Why Photizo, if all that were required for a dispute to be over is your opinion, then there was really no dispute to being with, was there? :)

God smites living sinners in the OT, throughout OT history.
God does not smite living sinners in the NT, until what will be the very end of human history.

I see change.

God is gracious to living sinners in both Testaments and has smitten living sinners in both Testaments... for example, all that takes place in Revelation and, Annanias and Saphira in the book of Acts.

Get your eyes checked.

Alright, I should've been more specific. Clearly he does smite in the NT. The difference is in scope. I already told you that Revelation is not the issue. I acknowledged in my original post that I'm aware of all the smiting that happens in the end. However, the scope of which earlier smitings took place, entire towns, a global flood, and the fact that they happened more often than not compared to the time of Jesus to Revelations, show a clear change in God's behaviour towards living sinners.

Alright, I should've been more specific. Clearly he does smite in the NT. The difference is in scope...entire towns...

Wrong again. "Off the top of your head clearly isn't working for you--and neither is shooting from the hip. Paul warns the Christians at Corinth and Rome to pay heed to God's behavior towards the Jews in both OT and NT times...If God had changed with respect to His behavior such a warning would be unnecessary...consider also The "smiting" of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. predicted by Jesus as a consequence of their rejection of Him as their Messiah.

Wrong again. Paul warns the Christians at Corinth and Rome to pay heed to God's behavior towards the Jews in both OT and NT times...If God had changed with respect to His behavior such a warning would be unnecessary...consider also The "smiting" of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. predicted by Jesus as a consequence of their rejection of Him as their Messiah.

Compare the "smiting" of Jerusalem in 70 AD, an act done by Roman soldiers, to the global flood or the destruction of Sodom and Gommorah by "brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven". Again, quite the difference in scope.

Compare the "smiting" of Jerusalem in 70 AD, an act done by Roman soldiers, to the global flood or the destruction of Sodom and Gommorah by "brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven". Again, quite the difference in scope.

Scope is not the issue, behavior is...there is no change in God's behavior between the OT and NT. Again, if there was, Paul's warning to the Christians in Rome and Corinth would be unnecessary.

Scope is not the issue, behavior is...there is no change in God's behavior between the OT and NT. Again, if there was, Paul's warning to the Christians in Rome and Corinth would be unnecessary.

If there were no change in behavior in God, then there would be more Sodoms and Gammorahs from the time of Jesus to the time of Revelations. There aren't. How do you account for that?

If there were no change in behavior in God, then there would be more Sodoms and Gammorahs from the time of Jesus to the time of Revelations. There aren't. How do you account for that?

Not necessarily. What it shows is that, on balance, God is gracious and kind... longsuffering, patient. Occaisionally smiting here and there...pssst, No telling who He'll smite next though.

LOL! "Gammorahs"? What's that...some Japanese movie monster?

Not necessarily. What it shows is that, on balance, God is gracious and kind... longsuffering, patient. Occaisionally smiting here and there...pssst, No telling who He'll smite next though.

LOL! "Gammorahs"? What's that...some Japanese movie monster?

Heh, alright Photizo; I give. I was just so scared he was gonna come smite New York City next, I guess I started going a little nuts.

Heh, alright Photizo; I give. I was just so scared he was gonna come smite New York City next, I guess I started going a little nuts.

Take care, ashura...also, repeatedly we are told in God's Word "don't be afraid", and "fear not"... :)

Take care, ashura.

You as well.

Yes, and you'll notice that I did mention that. But again, that's not till the very end when judgement is cast on every human soul, unlike in the OT when god smote the living sinners repeatedly. That's certainly a change in behavior.

EDIT: And it being off the top of my head doesn't change that what I bring up is true.

God had to establish the Law and the consequences of transgressing the Law to the people of the World. The carrying out of wrath in the OT was a clear demonstration to all observers that transgressing the Will of God has serious consequences.

Once again as you pointed out the Book Of Revelation (NT) points out that sin is still sin and judgement will be carried out just as in the OT. The Only difference is the process that leads to the judgement.

Sin is still sin as it was before.

The penalty for sin is still death, the same as it was before.

The difference is that judgement is delayed and those carrying out the judgement have changed from followers of God to God Himself.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

God had to establish the Law and the consequences of transgressing the Law to the people of the World. The carrying out of wrath in the OT was a clear demonstration to all observers that transgressing the Will of God has serious consequences.

Once again as you pointed out the Book Of Revelation (NT) points out that sin is still sin and judgement will be carried out just as in the OT. The Only difference is the process that leads to the judgement.

Sin is still sin as it was before.

The penalty for sin is still death, the same as it was before.

The difference is that judgement is delayed and those carrying out the judgement have changed from followers of God to God Himself.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Great answer! This is definitely why you're my favorite, you always make sense when it comes to this stuff. :)

And God said...In the beginning was The Word...i.e. LOGOS i.e. the Logic and Means of creation--Jesus Christ Who said He is the Way, The Truth, and The Life.

Here comes the woo woo train.:rolleyes:
Just who was there to record god's words? :bugeye: the word is logos hunh. Why don't you try to expand on that in a rational manner. for the record jesus was a work of fiction- he never really lived.

Why don't you try to expand on that in a rational manner.

Because of your excessive use of smiley's... your talk of the woo woo train...such things lead me to believe expanding upon what I've already told you "in a rational manner" will be "a waste of your--and what's infinitely worse--my time."

Because of your excessive use of smiley's... your talk of the woo woo train...such things lead me to believe expanding upon what I've already told you "in a rational manner" will be "a waste of your--and what's infinitely worse--my time."

Then make sense.

read the bible, it doesnt say that god hates anyone...fred phelps takes it and twists the scriptures it say god hates sin correct, is a person sin? no god doesnt like what they are doing but he doesnt hate them as an individual...God disagrees with the gay lifestyle as much as he disagrees with fred phelps and his anti american organazation....
God died so that we could turn away from our sins to live right and freely, fred phelps is just an idiot and the majority of christians disagree with him...watch and see i can gurantee you he will not be in heaven

how can you say jesus didnt live???
who do you think wrote the book of acts? there were preachers like paul,john, and so on who went everywhere with jesus and kept record of the goings on....the bible doesnt contradict itself at all.... the time in between the old and new testamen was years and years, alot of the authors and men of god never saw or knew eachother at all....and yet it doesnt contradict itself

read revelation and what it say about the endtimes and then look at the signs...tell me if that is what is going on today...they have evidence that the bible is real and that jesus did walk and talk and preach on this earth

how can you say jesus didnt live???
who do you think wrote the book of acts? there were preachers like paul,john, and so on who went everywhere with jesus and kept record of the goings on....
or so they say,...in other words its all rumors aka hearsay,
btw have you heard of all those other godlike men who existed loooong time before Jebus?
could be xians borrowed something from the other mythologies

http://www.geocities.com/inquisitive79/godmen.html


the bible doesnt contradict itself at all.... the time in between the old and new testamen was years and years, alot of the authors and men of god never saw or knew eachother at all....and yet it doesnt contradict itself
hows these for contradictions
www.skepticsannotatedbible.com

read revelation and what it say about the endtimes and then look at the signs...tell me if that is what is going on today...they have evidence that the bible is real and that jesus did walk and talk and preach on this earth
bible is real,but isnt really evidence for jesus,as it cannot be verified in any way

btw you may want to visit Biblical History&Critisism forum at http://www.iidb.org/vbb/forumdisplay.php?f=60