God is sometimes said to be the highest power there is.
It is also said sometimes that people must obey God's orders.


Does it therefore follow that because God is the highest power there is, people must obey God's orders?

If you think it follows - please justify why you think so.

God is sometimes said to be the highest power there is.
It is also said sometimes that people must obey God's orders.


Does it therefore follow that because God is the highest power there is, people must obey God's orders?

If you think it follows - please justify why you think so.


sometimes god is described as occupying the highest conceivable ontological position because nobody has the option to disobey him - for instance love or loathe god, the time factor (a potency attributed to god) ticks on regardless.

Of course there are some things that we can decide to be obedient to or not - but our attitude to such issues simply results in a situation like a persons decision to be dis/obedient to civil laws (ie one either is a free citizen or in jail) - in either case, the power of authority does not diminish.

Mmm, does that really answer the question though? You stated that yes, God is the highest power and that we can choose to obey him. But the analogy to governmental authority is interesting because the question is should we obey. In the instance of government, sometimes the law can be considered wrong and some people feel a moral obligation to disobey. But can such a position exist with God? Is there ever an opportunity when we shouldn't obey God?

Mmm, does that really answer the question though? You stated that yes, God is the highest power and that we can choose to obey him. But the analogy to governmental authority is interesting because the question is should we obey. In the instance of government, sometimes the law can be considered wrong and some people feel a moral obligation to disobey. But can such a position exist with God? Is there ever an opportunity when we shouldn't obey God?

obviously the government is only an analogy and it only holds as far as simple issues - for instance if you don't want to obey the suggestion on what side of the road to drive on you will be made to obey whatever infringements/penalties are imposed for traffic violations - in other words the citizen has no scope for absolute independence because they are existing within a "controlled" environment at all times. In the same way, the living entity has no scope for independent existence outside of the jurisdiction of god (even the material world is a sub division of god's realm)

So basically, there never is an opportunity when we shouldn't obey God since his jurisdiction is the only jurisdiction there is?

So basically, there never is an opportunity when we shouldn't obey God since his jurisdiction is the only jurisdiction there is?

well no, not unless you think it doesn't matter which side of the road you should drive on, since either way you will just end up being obedient to government rules - even within controlled jurisdictions there are choices

Sorry, poorly worded.

So basically, there never is an opportunity when we shouldn't obey God since his jurisdiction is absolute? There can never be any exceptions unlike laws or governments which can be changed or overthrown.

Sorry, poorly worded.

So basically, there never is an opportunity when we shouldn't obey God since his jurisdiction is absolute? There can never be any exceptions unlike laws or governments which can be changed or overthrown.

no, there is no more opportunity to overthrow god than there is to jump over one's knees - that is one of many differences between god and mundane governments

God is sometimes said to be the highest power there is.
It is also said sometimes that people must obey God's orders.


Does it therefore follow that because God is the highest power there is, people must obey God's orders?

If you think it follows - please justify why you think so.

Not in general. The whole obey thing seems to parallel despotic earthly rulers. Why some all powerful being wants to sit around giving orders and handing out punishments is beyond me. We seem to be rather complicated creatures, surely God or Gods or She or It had something more interesting in mind.

Oh, I'll make them horney and then limit their sex. And they better fucking listen.

If this is the way God is, I think we have a moral obligation to show him that he is selling the possiblities of a universe short. Come on down and play, get that stick out of your ass.

We can't just leave God in this impoverished conception of his role. I mean if my Dad had just sat around in his armchair barking out orders, it certainly wouldn't have helped him get a life if I had pretended that obeying was being respectful.

But your dad can't toss me into burning pits of pain and abstinence like Jesus' dad can. :(

Until I was about 12 my Dad could kick my ass without getting out of that chair.
On the other hand my Dad was a nice guy.
If God is like in the Bible
then I hate him
and if he is omniscient He knows this
and no amount of ass-kissing will get me around this. He will find me out. There is not way I can contort myself to consider that a loving God.
Hell, he should have plucked Jesus off that cross when the guy was leaning back with the mallet, if he could have, that is.
All the explanations about why that was a holy event are similar to all the justifications of sexual abusers.

no, there is no more opportunity to overthrow god than there is to jump over one's knees - that is one of many differences between god and mundane governments

You still haven't addressed the OP question. The OP doesn't ask whether God's will can be overthrown. Presuming that God is omnipotent, God's will will be done anyway.


The question is,

"Because God is the highest power there is, people must obey God's orders" - does that follow, and if yes, why?

From what I gather, his answer is yes because God is always right. A very simplistic broken down version of his view, yes, but that's your answer.

From what I gather, his answer is yes because God is always right. A very simplistic broken down version of his view, yes, but that's your answer.

I am open to the possibility that there might be more answers to that question. IOW, I am interested in different justifications for that yes.
Hence a thread.

God is sometimes said to be the highest power there is.
It is also said sometimes that people must obey God's orders.


Does it therefore follow that because God is the highest power there is, people must obey God's orders?

If you think it follows - please justify why you think so.

Which god? There have been thousands of extant and extinct gods in human history and prehistory. Before one could answer the question, shouldn't one determine, first, which god you are referring to? And, even then, there is no good reason to accept that is the correct god to follow. And, if one is to adhere to the notion that "all gods are really the same god" (an argument that isn't tenable since the gods of humanity have varied and diverse mythical qualities that are often very contradictory in nature), then can it really be said that there are "orders" given by this god? The orders of the Judeo-Christian gods frequently contradict those of the Muslim god; both of these mythical deities contradict other gods like Zeus, Atun, Ptah, Quetzacoatl, etc.

OP commits an existential fallacy by assuming [i]a priori that there exists a singular god that all can agree upon and that there exists [a god at all.

God is sometimes said to be the highest power there is.
It is also said sometimes that people must obey God's orders.


Does it therefore follow that because God is the highest power there is, people must obey God's orders?

If you think it follows - please justify why you think so.
It doesn't follow because it isn't based on evidence or reality.

As an example some women say they have trouble achieving an orgasm.

Some women say chocolate is better than sex.

Therefore in order to achieve an orgasm women should use chocolate.

See how easy it is to make two claims and string them together as if they were truthful or accurate.

God is sometimes said to be the highest power there is.
It is also said sometimes that people must obey God's orders.
Does it therefore follow that because God is the highest power there is, people must obey God's orders?
If you think it follows - please justify why you think so.

God is THE highest power. He is the great "I am". When you're HIS child, you WANT to obey Him. You WANT to be pleasing to Him. Nothing else matters. Nothing. :)

God is THE highest power. He is the great "I am". When you're HIS child, you WANT to obey Him. You WANT to be pleasing to Him. Nothing else matters. Nothing. :)

Which god of the thousands of gods in human mythology are you referring to? And, on what evidence do you base these claims?

Which god? There have been thousands of extant and extinct gods in human history and prehistory. Before one could answer the question, shouldn't one determine, first, which god you are referring to? And, even then, there is no good reason to accept that is the correct god to follow. And, if one is to adhere to the notion that "all gods are really the same god" (an argument that isn't tenable since the gods of humanity have varied and diverse mythical qualities that are often very contradictory in nature), then can it really be said that there are "orders" given by this god? The orders of the Judeo-Christian gods frequently contradict those of the Muslim god; both of these mythical deities contradict other gods like Zeus, Atun, Ptah, Quetzacoatl, etc.

OP commits an existential fallacy by assuming [i]a priori that there exists a singular god that all can agree upon and that there exists [a god at all.

I see what you mean and it was something I took into consideration before posting.

But the statements "God is sometimes said to be the highest power there is" and "It is also said sometimes that people must obey God's orders" apply to several religions, several schools within a religion. So respondents from various religions and their schools will feel addressed.

What I'm after are the various justifications for that "yes" (or "no") to the question "Because God is the highest power there is, people must obey God's orders" - does that follow, and if yes, why?

Which god of the thousands of gods in human mythology are you referring to?
And, on what evidence do you base these claims?

It's not necessary to ask such questions for the purposes of this thread.
I only wish to see the justifications for that "yes", wherever they come from, whatever they are.

Which is the reason I posed the question to Sandy: to see what her justification was.

Is the source of her belief from evidence and data that can be observed, quantified or even legitimately qualified? Or is it merely a popular meme that has perpetuated itself by appealing to her credulity combined with a convenient ability to answer the right questions or abate the right fears?

In that sense, my question is very much on-topic for the thread since it adds to the level of inquiry. And I'm all about inquiring into religious belief and superstition.

You still haven't addressed the OP question. The OP doesn't ask whether God's will can be overthrown. Presuming that God is omnipotent, God's will will be done anyway.


The question is,

"Because God is the highest power there is, people must obey God's orders" - does that follow, and if yes, why?

My point is that the position of being omnipotent makes it impossible for the presence of ultimate disobedience - all that is left is a hierarchy of alternatives - IOW if we are not obedient to the principles of spiritual existence (serve god in a mood of unalloyed love) we will be forced to be obedient to the principles of material nature (repeatedly experience birth, death, old age and disease in any one of numerable life forms all competing with each other for the fulfillment of their ideals of personal aggrandizement)

Which god?
I guess he is talking about monotheism
:rolleyes:

My point is that the position of being omnipotent makes it impossible for the presence of ultimate disobedience - all that is left is a hierarchy of alternatives - IOW if we are not obedient to the principles of spiritual existence (serve god in a mood of unalloyed love) we will be forced to be obedient to the principles of material nature (repeatedly experience birth, death, old age and disease in any one of numerable life forms all competing with each other for the fulfillment of their ideals of personal aggrandizement)

The part I bolded - I find that is an odd way to conceive of "obedience".
I would sooner think that if one doesn't obey God, then simply consequences will be that one will go to hell, for example. I imagine a person can be thrown to hell, suffer accordingly, and still not obey God.

To be "forced to be obedient" is as if one's will would be controlled, and annulled.

There are some nicer Christians who believe that God is simply explaining how it works. If you do these things it moves you further away from me and that will feel bad for you. Your choice. That there is no gavel coming down, no being sent to hell.

My problem for this is that the there rules seem to run so strongly against how God made us. It kind of amounts to a trap.

I am simply warning you.
(but I made you so that you would experience listening to all my rules as a kind of torture. So you can either suffer torture now or later.)
Later being forever the choice seems logical. But I just can't see a loving god setting things up like that.

I have more sympathy for religious people who claim that God is mean and frivolous.

The part I bolded - I find that is an odd way to conceive of "obedience".
I would sooner think that if one doesn't obey God, then simply consequences will be that one will go to hell, for example. I imagine a person can be thrown to hell, suffer accordingly, and still not obey God.

To be "forced to be obedient" is as if one's will would be controlled, and annulled.
the principle of material life is a kind of punishment at all times, regardless whether one is in a material hell or heaven - basically the more one is forced into situations of obedience, the lower one is sinking into the lower regions of the universe.

For instance an expert school teacher can achieve one result merely by raising their eyebrows - this result is very difficult for a farmer herding his buffalos to achieve (despite having recourse to various projectiles like rocks, a big stick and a swag of coarse language)

God is sometimes said to be the highest power there is.
It is also said sometimes that people must obey God's orders.


Does it therefore follow that because God is the highest power there is, people must obey God's orders?

If you think it follows - please justify why you think so.

God is the Highest power. He has no creator nor and end. Thus his authority is absolute. That being said as a sort of disclaimer.

God does not force those to obey his orders. We indeed do have a choice and we are exhorted excercise that choice for our survival. If we as free moral agents chose to follow that authority then the bible tells us it will go well for us not only in the short term but in the long term when he intends to bring a permanent peace to life in Earth and in Heaven Essentially he'll tolerate the death and destruction for only so long. Once that time comes we would have all made a choice before hand to which we prefer...peace or war. Ethics or immorality and ultimately Life or Death.

We can not follow the thinking that God believes this is an issue of power. He has waited patiently for us to make our own decisions. If it was about power and the ability to wield that power he would have wiped man from the Earth and started over. This didn't occur. because it was an issue of justice. All the people that resulted from Adam and Eve would have never had a choice if he had executed them promptly. He allowed a global family to be created and from the children he'll alow them to make a choice of which way they'd prefer to go. In essence God is on trial before our eyes...we're seeing the evidence and weighing the decision even now. At the same time he also is reviewing us.

God is the Highest power. He has no creator nor and end. Thus his authority is absolute. That being said as a sort of disclaimer.

God does not force those to obey his orders. We indeed do have a choice and we are exhorted excercise that choice for our survival. If we as free moral agents chose to follow that authority then the bible tells us it will go well for us not only in the short term but in the long term when he intends to bring a permanent peace to life in Earth and in Heaven Essentially he'll tolerate the death and destruction for only so long. Once that time comes we would have all made a choice before hand to which we prefer...peace or war. Ethics or immorality and ultimately Life or Death.

We can not follow the thinking that God believes this is an issue of power. He has waited patiently for us to make our own decisions. If it was about power and the ability to wield that power he would have wiped man from the Earth and started over. This didn't occur. because it was an issue of justice. All the people that resulted from Adam and Eve would have never had a choice if he had executed them promptly. He allowed a global family to be created and from the children he'll alow them to make a choice of which way they'd prefer to go. In essence God is on trial before our eyes...we're seeing the evidence and weighing the decision even now. At the same time he also is reviewing us.

Is that a "yes" or "no" or "something else" in reply to my question? Because I don't understand how what you're saying here answers my question.

God is the Highest power. He has no creator nor and end. Thus his authority is absolute. That being said as a sort of disclaimer.
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M*W: God is what some people think is the highest power. Yet, no one can describe logically what or who god is. So here's this highly mysterious but invisible being who had no beginning or no end. Some people bow down and worship this invisible entity with the hope that he/she/it is really there, but they still can't explain it even through their wrought iron belief.

God does not force those to obey his orders. We indeed do have a choice and we are exhorted excercise that choice for our survival.
*************
M*W: As I see it, this invisible yet mysterious being that some believe in does not do much of anything in our lives. It seems that we can do what we damn please. Those who believe and those who don't believe survive! I don't see any separation between those that believe and those that don't. We are all solely responsible for the decisions we make in this life. Since you believe your god is the highest power, I would certainly expect that this god would make himself known. Why does this god want to be so mysterious if he's really god? It's bad enough that he's invisible. Christians and atheists survive next to each other in this world, and as yet, no one has come back from the alleged after-life to confirm what christians believe to be true. There are just too many loop holes in christian doctrine to be reasonable, logical or right.

If we as free moral agents...
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M*W: Please explain what you mean by "free moral agents...".

"If we as free moral agents chose to follow that authority then the bible tells us it will go well for us not only in the short term but in the long term..."
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M*W: You would be more correct in saying "assumed authority...", since there is no proof of a god existing. The only proof there is that it is a god of fiction. Therefore, it is only an assumption and not a provable reality. So the truth of it is that your assumed authority is nothing more than a fictional character you describe as your "highest power."

when he intends to bring a permanent peace to life in Earth and in Heaven Essentially he'll tolerate the death and destruction for only so long.
*************
M*W: This mysterious and invisible "highest power" does not "force those to obey his orders," so what is his purpose as god? We can't see him, we can't hear him, we can't touch him, we can't taste him, we can't smell him, and even in his highest power, he doesn't force us to do anything. We are totally within our own boundaries and can never be coaxed or persuaded to do anything that is not within our own power and judgment. It's as if your "highest power" is quite powerless!

Once that time comes we would have all made a choice before hand to which we prefer...peace or war. Ethics or immorality and ultimately Life or Death.
*************
M*W: So, you are saying that when this pre-determined time that only god knows has come, it was all our own choice anyway. What is the purpose, then, for this god of yours? He's invisible and mysterious, he doesn't force us to do anything. He let's us make our own choices and doesn't interfere. Seems we have complete rein on our comings and goings. He is something that we can't experience with our own senses, yet you claim he is the "highest power" and his authority is "absolute." What does this god do?

We can not follow the thinking that God believes this is an issue of power.
*************
M*W: Let's see here, this god does absolutely nothing in his role as the "highest power." Everything we do, we do because of our own will. He doesn't interfere. Now you're admitting that this god you believe in is not the least bit interested in "power." So, now this god of yours is powerless! Yet, some of you still worship him as the "highest power."

He has waited patiently for us to make our own decisions.
*************
M*W: Hmmm. This god has done absolutely nothing, so he knows absolutely nothing, and we do it all by ourselves with our own power and resources, and he has "waited patiently." What for?

If it was about power and the ability to wield that power he would have wiped man from the Earth and started over. This didn't occur, because it was an issue of justice.
*************
M*W: Make no mistake about it, this "highest power" of yours sounds rather impotent, stupid, and in eternal hiding from the human race.
All the people that resulted from Adam and Eve would have never had a choice if he had executed them promptly.
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M*W: First, A&E are fictional characters. They didn't exist as two human beings, so they couldn't have been "executed" for their alleged deeds. In this day and age, it still shocks me that some people actually believe these bible stories to be true! There was no god who created A&E, but there was a creative writer who wrote those stories for entertainment.

He allowed a global family to be created and from the children he'll alow them to make a choice of which way they'd prefer to go.
*************
M*W: Ah, gee god, thanks a lot for "allowing" us to create our own global family with absolutely no help from you (since you're a figment of fiction)! And, BTW, we'll make our own choices from here on in, so it's best you stay where you belong--in fiction!

In essence God is on trial before our eyes... we're seeing the evidence and weighing the decision even now. At the same time he also is reviewing us.
*************
M*W: Something that doesn't exist cannot be interrogated, evidenced, arrested, charged, tried nor convicted or fined for any crime on this Earth. The judge and jury are all figments of your altered minds. That's what religion does to you people, it alters your mind. It's like a drug, an "opiate of the masses." So, there is no invisible yet mysterious, power of anykind, who cannot be sensed by the human race, nor depended on for any human need. This being that you all believe in as your "highest authority" is a helpless, stupid, impotent, fictional character that never was.