"God is Love, and so Love is God" This statement is from "A New Christianity For A New World" (p.72). It is the basis for my entire belief system, from which all else follows. For one thing, Jesus said that the two most important commandments, from which all others are based, are love of God and love of neighbor. He presumed that we love ourselves, and he even told us to love our enemies!. Jesus also demonstrated divine love throughout his life on earth. What is even more important to me though, just as with knowing God, love is something that cannot be adequately defined by words, rather it must be experienced. It is truly a mystery and has great spiritual significance to me. I have always felt that my love relationship with my wife is the closest thing to experiencing God, of all the spiritual experieces I have had in my lifetime . Thus I higly value Bishop Spong's emphasis on love throughout his written works. Just to mention two of his related statements, "God is the ultimate source of love", and "I (spong) love with divine love". He also refers frequently to "loving wastefully". How very powerful and beautiful are these beliefs.

I do believe God Is Love, and Love is God. Comments anyone?

I'm curious,

if God = Love
and, Love = war
does God = war?


I think your assumption is wrong. God is not love. Just how do you define love? To me it's a struggle. You want some? You can't have it. You get some? You don't want it. (By some I mean love...not some).

Not only that, you've made an assumption surrounded by the premise that Jesus is God and his teachings represent that of God (which I don't believe). No philosophical argument. No nothing. You come out stating something about Jesus and love, and other stuff which I didn't bother reading. Would you care to elaborate on Just how God = Love if indeed that is the case.


By the way, I would not base my entire belief system on an assumption if I were you. Follow your instincts. They may prove to be just what God had ordered ;)


-Elbaz

Seeker01,

Read this: http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15897...:)

I'm happy that there is someone here that has the same view I do... :)

Some comments... Love for God and for other people is basically the same thing. When you Love God (which is Love), then you are Loving Love. The consequence of Loving Love is to Love without conditions. Anyone is perfect. It is not easy to Love an enemy if you are focused on the enemy. However, if you focus on God (Love), then you won't see your enemies imperfections and the result is that you will be able to Love him despite all his imperfections and whatever he does against you. The secret to Love everyone with all you heart is by Loving God Himself. :)

This is pure divine Love, Love focused on Itself... :)

Elbaz,

1 John 4:8
"8 The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love. "

1 John 4:16
"16 We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. "

The whole book of 1 John talks about that...:)

Seeker,

Welcome BTW.

Are you saying that humans cannot love without direct intervention by a god?

You are implying this by claiming that God is love.

God=Love
Cannot be more explicit then that...:D:D

GOD = DEAD!

Yes it can, Nelson. :m:

Liar...:rolleyes:

Slave...:rolleyes:

Children, Children, Children... :cool:

*starts fighting with Xev, trying to slap her, then pulls out a giant sword, cut her head off, throw it our of the window and it explodes (Have anyone here ever played "Sam & Max"...:D)*
:D:D:D

Now seriously... Loving one another is something really powerful...:)

Elbaz, Elbaz, Elbaz....:cool:

Nelson, interesting how violent you turn under your "religion of love".

I wasn't being serious...:o

I can talk more about the subject... if you let me...:rolleyes:

The fallen men had gone their own ways and lost interest in knowing God anymore, and this world is plagued with all sorts of evils that distract us from seeking God, but God did not abandon us but prepare salvation.

He tolerates sinner till the time come for ------ Judgement!

Judgement is just the way we perceive it. In reality, some people choose to be with God and others without Him for the rest of eternity. There is no judgement, there is only a choice (A HUGE one though...).

to qoute the pumpkins

"emptiness is lonliness
lonliness is cleanliness
cleanliness is godliness

God is empty!!"

finnaly proof positive on this whole god question:D

Only because a pumpking say something it doesn't mean it is true...:rolleyes:

Elbaz:

If you wouldn't base your beliefs on assumptions what would you base them on?

mshark

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
1 John 4:8
"8 The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love. "

1 John 4:16
"16 We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. "

He's also a liar:

1 Kings 22:23
... the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

Jeremiah 20:7
O LORD, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived

Ezekiel 14: 9
... I the LORD have deceived that prophet

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
Judgement is just the way we perceive it. In reality, some people choose to be with God and others without Him for the rest of eternity. There is no judgement, there is only a choice (A HUGE one though...).

And those choices have severe consequences. To those who reject the wooing of a loving God, who draws all men to himself, there is Hell to pay, for one's sins. This is called Divine justice. For those whose choose God, there is heaven to gain, for the price for sin has been paid, on the cross of calvary.

Firefly,

From which translation did you get those scriptures? I'm sure that it wasn't from the Hebrew original one...

If God = Love, then it wouldn't be a question of accepting God, so to speak, but accepting love. Therefore the athiest who is all-loving should have more of a relationship with God than the christian who hates in the name of God...

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
From which translation did you get those scriptures? I'm sure that it wasn't from the Hebrew original one...
KJV. It's much the same in other translations though.

KJV. It's much the same in other translations though.
KJV was written by theologist in conjunct with some people that knew Hebrew and Greek. The words that are used are not the best ones. For example, in many passages of the Old Testament the word the Hebrew word meaning "to allow" was translated as "to do"... which is a big difference. The same as those passages you showed.

Since almost all the other translations are based on the KJV... it is not a very good idea to use them either. If you want to read the real ones, you can learn Greek and Hebrew, or buy an interlinear Bible which has the Greek and Hebrew texts included...


notme2000,

If God = Love, then it wouldn't be a question of accepting God, so to speak, but accepting love. Therefore the athiest who is all-loving should have more of a relationship with God than the christian who hates in the name of God...
Kinda... The problem with the atheist is that s/he concentrates his/her love in others, and finish by seeing their imperfections and start judging them. That's why they agree to love some people, but evil people they don't agree to love. So it is not a complete and pure Love as God Himself is.

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
If you want to read the real ones, you can learn Greek and Hebrew, or buy an interlinear Bible which has the Greek and Hebrew texts included...
1 Kings 22:23 - JPS Tanach: Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets; and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.
1 Kings 22:23 - NIV: So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you.
1 Kings 22:23 - NASB: Now therefore, behold, the LORD has put a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; and the LORD has proclaimed disaster against you.
1 Kings 22:23 - NKJV: Therefore look! The LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours, and the LORD has declared disaster against you.
1 Kings 22:23 - YLT: And now, lo, Jehovah hath put a spirit of falsehood in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and Jehovah hath spoken concerning thee -- evil.So many choices. So little time ... ;)

CA - lol, thanks. If you're proving my point. :confused:

TS - Do you speak Greek or Hebrew?

Kinda... The problem with the atheist is that s/he concentrates his/her love in others, and finish by seeing their imperfections and start judging them. That's why they agree to love some people, but evil people they don't agree to love. So it is not a complete and pure Love as God Himself is.
Well I don't believe in a God, but I love my enemies... So do I love God but call him by a different name?

Originally posted by Firefly
CA - lol, thanks. If you're proving my point. :confused: Sorry - sometimes I'm far more terse and obscure than I need to be.

There is a strain of apologetics that you get from a minority of Christians suggesting that the Tanach/Bible would make perfect sense if only you read the right translation. All in all, it's a pretty silly argument.

CA,

Find in Hebrew...


Firefly,
Do you speak Greek or Hebrew?
I'm learning Greek... I will get there eventually... ;)

I bet you will. :)

Still, I can't say I'm convinced by your arguement. So many different translations, done by so many different people, in different times, and you think they're all wrong?

And even if the words have been slightly mistranslated, the meaning still stands; God spreads evil. What could also be differently translated as disater or deception.

God spreads evil.
So does love, if used selfishly... Not that I agree with TS' theory, but I must admit it's validity.

Firefly,

Still, I can't say I'm convinced by your arguement. So many different translations, done by so many different people, in different times, and you think they're all wrong?
All the other translations came from the KJV. The KJV was written A single mistake made in the KJV certainly spread to all others. Reading the original gives you the right and perfect "translation".

For example:
KJV's Colossians 1:14
"14 In whom we have redemption through His blood, even the forgiveness of sins."

Greek Colossians 1:14 (rough translation)
"14 In who the possession of the redemption, of the forgiveness of (your) sins:"

http://www.greekbible.com/index.php#

Note: To help you in translating the little words by yourself, I'm giving you this site:
http://www.langintro.com/greek/grammar/case3.htm

So... where is "through His blood" in the Greek translation??

And even if the words have been slightly mistranslated, the meaning still stands; God spreads evil. What could also be differently translated as disater or deception.
No, He doesn't. It is written:

Matthew 7:17
"17 So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit."

And also:
James 1:17
"17 Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow. "

So God cannot do evil. Unfortunatly, I can't look for the scriptures you told me cause I don't have an Interlinear Bible and I cannot find an on-line version like the Greek one.

However, I can comment on some of the words:
to put: can be translated in some passages as "to allow" or "to let".
to speak: can be translated as "to warn" and probably "to advise".
to deceive: also "to make simple".
to destroy: (as in Ezekiel 14:9) "to overthrow"!

So they can be translated THIS way:

1 Kings 22:23
KJV's 1 Kings 22:23
"23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee."

Hebrew 1 Kings 22:23
"23 Now therefore, behold the Lord hath allowed a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath warn thee, concerning evil."

Important Note: See how the subject and object can change a lot in the sentence? In old languages like Hebrew and Greek, the syntax of the word is shown in the end of the word, instead of in the position of the word. MUST be really carefull here.


Jeremiah 20:7
KJV's Jeremiah 20:7
"7 O LORD, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived; thou art stronger than I, and hast prevailed: I am in derision daily, every one mocketh me."

Hebrew Jeremiah 20:7
"7 O Lord, thou hast made me simple, and I were made simple; thou art stronger than I, and hast prevailed: I am in derision daily, everyone mocketh me."

Important Note: Note that the consequence of God doing something good for him (making him humble) created a bad reaction in people around. God's action was good, but it attracted persecution to him who He helped, cause this world don't Love Him.


Ezekiel 14:9
KJV's Ezekiel 14:9
"9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel."

Hebrew Ezekiel 14:9
"9 And if the prophet have been made simple when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have made simple that prophet, and I will strech out my hand upon him, and I will overthrow him from the midst of my people Israel."

Or maybe:
Hebrew Ezekiel 14:9
"9 And if the prophet be deceived when he had being warned a thing, I the Lord had made simple that prophet, and I will stretch
out my hand upon him, and will overthrow him from the midst of my people Israel."

Very Important Note: See how "I will overthrow him from the midst of my people" works much better than "I will destroy him from the midst of my people? Which one makes more sense? ;)

A Last Note:
My translation is NOT accurate. I've translated only the words I defined above. For an accurate translation one must read it in Hebrew and translate it word by word, paying A LOT of attention to the syntax.

*sigh*... That was hard work...:eek::p

This question reminds me of a story.

Two people were standing inside a house, looking out the window at a tree, and they saw the branches were moving back and forth.

One said, that look, the wind is blowing.

The other said, no way! the tree barnches are moving back and forth, according to its own volition. I don't feel any wind blowing, here in the house, and you can't prove me wrong.

If god is love, consider me a groveler. Otherwise, well here is another quote for ya:

"Pray to a god but I doubt he's listenin'
this world's a gutter that he likes to piss in"
- AYWKUBTTOD

notme2000,

So does love, if used selfishly... Not that I agree with TS' theory, but I must admit it's validity.
The Love I'm speaking of is God's Love, not human love. By Its own definition, it is perfect. If "love" is used selfishly, then that has NOTHING to do with God.

The Love I'm speaking of is God's Love, not human love. By Its own definition, it is perfect. If "love" is used selfishly, then that has NOTHING to do with God.
Let me know if I got this then. God is the feeling of love, not the act, correct?

Originally posted by notme2000
Let me know if I got this then. God is the feeling of love, not the act, correct?

The Greek language, is much better at expressing this idea, than English is. In the Greek there are 4 separate words, for differing definitions of the word love.

These words are Eros, Philos, Storge', and Agape'.

1) Eros is a selfish love. It is best defined as I love you, becasue you are beautiful, it is the source word, for the English word Erotic. It is most closely related to lust.

2) Philos love, is a friendship love, or the love between brothers. It most closely means, I love you, becasue you agree with me.

3) Storge' love, it is a parental love. It most closely means, I love you, becasue you belong to me.

4) Agape' love is the altruistic love. It gives without seeking a return. It can also be translated charity. It has no hidden agenda. It it unconditional, independant of the actions or behavior of the person being loved.

God is Agape'. He loves us unconditionally, and desires all humans to return to him, but will not force himself against someones will.

Couldn't have said better... :)
I didn't know the third one... thanks biblthmp...:)

Thanx biblthmp, most informative!

god can kiss my ass.