I'm interested in how theists answer these questions.

Why do you choose your god?

Why do you think it possible for a mortal to choose a god?

If there is a god, why do you think YOUR religious concept has any bearing on what that god is?

Wouldn't you think that god would be more than the human mind can really comprehend?

You really believe that your holy text is more important than the other holy texts?

Was jesus the original socialist (for the christians, pardon)?

Why do you need this kind of false reassurance so badly?

How does your opinion have any bearing on objective physical reality?

Why is your opinion more valid than the person of the other religion who is as religious as you but not of your religion?

What makes YOU the expert?

It seems like a lot of people disagree with your choice of god, why do you think that is?

Do you think they are as serious about their religion as you are about yours?

Aren't you really just "choosing the explanation that works for you?" and giving up the quest for truth.. then getting pissed off if other people refuse to.. because it contradicts your selfish and lazy assumptions?


Please, feel free to add questions.

Here's one. Why are you starting a thread that's going to attract SOME PEOPLE who make 3 mile long posts for their own entertainment?:rolleyes:

wesmorris,
please answer the following questions:

1- Do you consider human beings to be a created matter?
(yes) or (yes)

2- What is the entity responsible for creating that matter? and the entire universe?
(God) or (Evolution) or (Energy)

3- If you chose evolution or energy, then describe the entity that created the process of evolution or the energy matter?
(God) or (I don't know) or (nothing)

I'd say believing in god is not such a bad concept, now who is the ignorant fool who has no clue?
Wesmorris of course.

Originally posted by heflores
wesmorris,
please answer the following questions:

1- Do you consider human beings to be a created matter?
(yes) or (yes)

2- What is the entity responsible for creating that matter? and the entire universe?
(God) or (Evolution) or (Energy)

3- If you chose evolution or energy, then describe the entity that created the process of evolution or the energy matter?
(God) or (I don't know) or (nothing)

I'd say believing in god is not such a bad concept, now who is the ignorant fool who has no clue?
Wesmorris of course.

He'll just deny that this is truth and say he doesn't know the"real truth", but that's not it. He's in denial that something comes from nothing at some point in time. And he can't get past his pride to admit it.

He's the one that's wrong and he knows it, that's why he feels compelled to continually question Christians about God.

yeah Gomer, but christians don't stay that simplistic in their discussions. They start pushing additional ideas over the believe in one creator, like an overly translated and interpreted bible shown as perfect english text pure from all contraditictions and corruptions. Three gods, Jesus as god, believing in some prophets and not believing in others, believing in some rules and not others. Reading the old testament then not following it because of the claim that Jesus make it all go away, ect......

I think those elements are the zeal that Wesmorris was reffering to in his post when he tried to ask, do you think you're better than others, ect.....So, here Wesmorris, have a point, not for me though.....I know how he thinks

He'll just deny that this is truth and say he doesn't know the"real truth"

If Wesmorris, myself and others are obviously too ignorant to know 'the truth' why dont you be man enough to show the proof?

Instead of having the courage and conviction to answer any of his questions you thought it more appropriate just to attempt petty insult? He asked 13 questions, you answered none.

You make absurd claims to knowing 'the truth' when the fact remains you don't. None of us know the truth. In order to come closer to finding a truth we ask questions, (those who are willing to ask). If you think you're in such a position to know the truth why dont you answer his questions?

Originally posted by Bates
Here's one. Why are you starting a thread that's going to attract SOME PEOPLE who make 3 mile long posts for their own entertainment?:rolleyes:

Mostly just because I like to demostrate the average theist's inability to answer some direct questions regarding their "faith".

Okay, I'll answer your questions... why won't you answer mine?

Originally posted by heflores
wesmorris,
please answer the following questions:

1- Do you consider human beings to be a created matter?
(yes) or (yes)

Uhm... I can't decide. Okay, YES.
Originally posted by heflores

2- What is the entity responsible for creating that matter? and the entire universe?
(God) or (Evolution) or (Energy)

I don't know that an entity is responsible for creating that matter, nor do I have any clue as to how the building blocks for that matter came to be. There are some interesting theories regarding the matter (in physics I mean, because religious theories are silly children's stories), but they are merely theories.
Originally posted by heflores

3- If you chose evolution or energy, then describe the entity that created the process of evolution or the energy matter?
(God) or (I don't know) or (nothing)

Don't know.
Originally posted by heflores

I'd say believing in god is not such a bad concept, now who is the ignorant fool who has no clue?

I'm no fool, but I'm definately ignorant. YOU are a fool if you think YOU know any more than I do regarding the questions you've posed. I ask again, why do you not answer my questions?
Originally posted by heflores

Wesmorris of course.

I disagree and believe you've provided evidence to the contrary.

I first started to answer your questions, but I saw the trap at the bottom. So you believe that we are created matters....We have to be. Created matters must be attributed to a created being, phenomena or something. Since we agree that we don't know all the detail, then let's agree on the black box theory that a creator of unknown characteristic is responsible for creation in the universe.

Your answer to the second question does not make any sense, because you agree that a creation exist, so a creator must exist.

Sorry for any disrespect, but I don't think your post was all that respectfull to Theists either.

Originally posted by heflores
I first started to answer your questions, but I saw the trap at the bottom.

The only trap is that which you perceive. I think those are questions a theist should be able to answer in order to defend their position. To be fair, you should be asking them of yourself, so that when people like ME come along, you wouldn’t be so scared.
Originally posted by heflores

So you believe that we are created matters.... We have to be.

No, I believe we are created from matter. Atoms and whatnot.
Originally posted by heflores

Created matters must be attributed to a created being, phenomena or something.

You think so? I don't. What if the universe has always existed? Maybe a gazillion things could contradict your statement. Why do you insist on answers that humans can not as of yet provide? That’s simply irrational.
Originally posted by heflores

Since we agree that we don't know all the detail, then let's agree on the black box theory that a creator of unknown characteristic is responsible for creation in the universe.

Okay I guess, but I don’t know if that has any bearing on reality. Further, if there WERE a creator of unknown characteristics, WHY in the HELL would you think that YOUR holy text had any bearing on that creator’s will? Why would you think the human mind capable of remotely fathoming this “creator’s” will, being, capacity, purpose, form.. anything about it? If there did exist a being of sufficient power to create the universe, why would you think that humans would have a clue about anything about that creator?

YOU ARE EMOTIONALLY NEEDY AND DEMAND ANSWERS THAT HUMANITY CANNOT PROVIDE. Hence you are lied to. What do you expect? :rolleyes:
Originally posted by heflores

Your answer to the second question does not make any sense, because you agree that a creation exist, so a creator must exist.

It made perfect sense, it’s just that you’re not accustomed to hearing the truth: There is no answer to the questions to which you currently answer “god”.
Originally posted by heflores

Sorry for any disrespect, but I don't think your post was all that respectful to Theists either.

It’s okay, honestly… I have no respect left for theism. It sickens me to my core because it’s well, the representative of just how low the bar can go for humanity when faced with questions it cannot answer. Some asshole makes something up and a bunch of needy folks eat it up like fucking candy. It just grosses me out.

I don’t necessarily disrespect the theist, for the person can be forgiven for their foolhardy embrace of the bullshit that’s spoon-fed to them…

Why do you choose your god?

I didn't. He chose me.

Why do you think it possible for a mortal to choose a god?

Why is it impossible? Everyone has a conception of God, even those who purportedly don't believe in a God.

If there is a god, why do you think YOUR religious concept has any bearing on what that god is?

It's all personal isn't it? Some individuals have a strong religious bent, others not so strong. Take some mescaline, based on my assessment of your personality that will get you a little closer to God, for a few hours at least.

Wouldn't you think that god would be more than the human mind can really comprehend?

Yes, in the physical realm, but not in the spiritual.

You really believe that your holy text is more important than the other holy texts?

Yes. But you're more than welcome to disagree with me.

Was jesus the original socialist (for the christians, pardon)?

He was more than just that.

Why do you need this kind of false reassurance so badly?

Why do you feel the need to repudiate that which you can't grasp?

How your your opinion have any bearing on objective physical reality?

Ahhh, good, the mescaline is kicking in already.

Why is your opinion more valid than the person of the other religion who is as religious as you but not of your religion?

It isn't. I don't need to worry about it because God is way above my opinion.

What makes YOU the expert?

Never claimed I was.

It seems like a lot of people disagree with your choice of god, why do you think that is?

Because we're all pithy little bastards when you get right down to it.

Do you think they are as serious about their religion as you are about yours?

Possibly, some more, some less. It doesn't matter, it's a personal relationship between God and the individual.

Aren't you really just "choosing the explanation that works for you?" and giving up the quest for truth.. then getting pissed off if other people refuse to.. because it contradicts your selfish and lazy assumptions?

The quest for truth never ends. As you alluded to earlier, God is big, bigger than most people care to think about. When one begins contemplating God and communing with God, then you begin to realize perhaps your spirit isn't bound by space and time, nor geography.


Please, feel free to add questions.

Why don't you stop staring over the top of your glasses? It makes you look dweebish. :cool:

BRIDGE:

mmmmmmmmmmbooya kasha. Respect.

I'll bash you later when I've got some time. :)

I'm glad you actually answered, that rocks. Looks like you are even a sensible and honest person to boot. Nice deal, I don't generally expect that regarding theists on the topic of theism... so you get much respect.

Yes I'm a dweeb, I'm good at it. :)

Refuting after a bit.

Is anyone planning on answering the first 13 questions? I will make an attempt from my point of view:

1) I haven't chosen a God, i just have belief in myself.

2) We're frail people, us mortals. We can do as we like because we're just mortal and have no real answers to anything. In order to give more comfort to our own lives we create things to have 'faith' in.

3) If there is a God there is nothing to suggest it's the God we perceive it to be. Personally i think we were put here by alien beings. We are but children of the cosmos..... We are so young in comparison to this universe that has been around for billions upon billions upon billions of years. I suppose there could have been a creator but why would he just start and end with Earth mortals several thousands of years ago? If there are other worldly civilisations and life forms it's probable to assume they have their own beliefs in God/s. If there is a big all powerful creator the truth of its exact nature has probably been forgotten several billion years ago. What we would have are hand downs of stories told to many other beings. Sumerian writing shows how mankind was created, (the original genesis). Information of our existence was relayed via mortal space travellers and they were then deemed to be the gods. If they too were created our own version of what god/s is/are would probably be so far from the truth.

4) Absolutely.

5) My version of 'holy texts', (Sumerian writings), are pretty much the earliest in mankinds history. As such i believe they carry a lot more weight than the mass translated more modern versions- however- that in no way substantiates it as proof.

6) I'm not Christian. Personally though i believe Jesus was an alien. When Nibiru, (12th planet), exploded [this goes against common belief that it's floating around the cosmos], a small spacecraft crash landed on earth. Mary- the pilot- gave birth to a child. The kings followed a bright star, (Nibiru going super nova), and found this child who could do miracles and was from the heavens.

7) I don't need any reassurances in life. I accept that we'll never know the facts but that doesn't mean we can't look for them regardless. If you asked why, i'd just respond that it gives me something to do- some mental excercise. I do not ask others to believe as i do and i don't kill anyone to justify it.

8) My opinions don't have any bearing on anything. They're just opinions.

9) My opinion is my own opinion. The simple fact i don't push it upon others or care if anyone believes my opinion means it doesn't need any validity in anyone elses eyes. When i die im not gonna care either way. If i die then find im in heaven i'll be pleasantly surprised and probably appreciate it more than those who expected it. If i die and end up burning for eternity i'd simply know that bad shit happens but that God has an overall master plan for 'goodness' so my suffering wouldn't be forever. If i did just continue burning forever i'd have plenty of time to reevaluate my opinions.

10) Absolutely nothing.

11) Because they believe in other things. It's not my problem what they do. I'll die eventually and wont particularly care what they think. I could say it's because the 'truth' is hidden from them and that they must 'want' to find the truth but that would be extremely ignorant, naive and self righteous.

12) Probably a lot more serious. I enjoy my life while i've got it... I haven't got the time to get all serious about every little thing that i hold opinion on. If i do get eternal life i'll have all the time in the universe, and more, to get serious.

13) Yeah the explanation works for me... but im constantly on a search for truth... as such i do not subscribe myself wholly to one idea. Doing so would seem a tad premature. I don't personally get pissed off if people disagree with me- i couldn't frankly give a shit what they do. Well.... my opinion isn't selfish- nobody benefits above others. Afterlife isn't exclusive to those who love my creators, they've probably long moved on to better places anyway and have forgotten all about us. Thus we are all equal: We all die and turn into bones. Nobody is above anyone else in the grand scheme of things. As for my laziness.... That's an inherent right with being human. I try not to be but this couch is so damn comfortable.

Now it's someone elses turn :D

I'll just do this quick cuz I'm beat.

Why do you choose your god?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I didn't. He chose me.
___________________________

Yeah right, you're a cult member, face it.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why do you think it possible for a mortal to choose a god?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Why is it impossible? Everyone has a conception of God, even those who purportedly don't believe in a God.
___________________________

because IF there were a god it would likely be inconceivable and not susceptable to whether or not you choose to believe in it. Have a conception of an abstract does not lend to the validity of that abstract, thought it may seem to you like a plausible idea.. that does not mean that it has any bearing on reality.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If there is a god, why do you think YOUR religious concept has any bearing on what that god is?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



It's all personal isn't it? Some individuals have a strong religious bent, others not so strong. Take some mescaline, based on my assessment of your personality that will get you a little closer to God, for a few hours at least.
___________________________

See above.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wouldn't you think that god would be more than the human mind can really comprehend?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Yes, in the physical realm, but not in the spiritual.

___________________________

You think highly of your "spririt" then eh? That's amazing. You are not god or equivalent to god dude, at least I'm almost positive... sorry.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You really believe that your holy text is more important than the other holy texts?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Yes. But you're more than welcome to disagree with me.

___________________________

Okay I do. I like my calculus book, oh.. and douglas adams. No, Piers Anthony. *shrug* The bible is not holy unless you make it that way and when you do that, it really only is to you and the others who think it so... which doesn't mean much to me..

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Was jesus the original socialist (for the christians, pardon)?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



He was more than just that.

___________________________

But he WAS that? Socialism is generally bad in my opinion.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why do you need this kind of false reassurance so badly?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Why do you feel the need to repudiate that which you can't grasp?

___________________________

I only feel compelled to repudiate that which is bullshit. I do not grasp bullshit as truth, IMO theists do.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How your your opinion have any bearing on objective physical reality?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Ahhh, good, the mescaline is kicking in already.

___________________________

Okay, maybe just a little, but are you saying you don't understand the question or you just don't deem it valid? I think it's a pretty important question.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why is your opinion more valid than the person of the other religion who is as religious as you but not of your religion?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



It isn't. I don't need to worry about it because God is way above my opinion.

___________________________

But but... you... man, how can you live in circles like that?? I believe in god because god is true, the truth is that god exist. god therefore exists. That shit is SO weak man, ack.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What makes YOU the expert?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Never claimed I was.

___________________________

Fair enough, but it does seem that you claim to know answers that you would have to be an expert to answer. Your claim to truth is based on nothing more than your claim to truth.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It seems like a lot of people disagree with your choice of god, why do you think that is?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Because we're all pithy little bastards when you get right down to it.

___________________________

I'll go along with that.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you think they are as serious about their religion as you are about yours?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Possibly, some more, some less. It doesn't matter, it's a personal relationship between God and the individual.

___________________________

A "personal relationship" is not a rational method by which to discuss the nature of the universe. you should be able to reasonable demonstrate your claims. Theistic claims are based on unreasonable and unneccesary assumptions.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Aren't you really just "choosing the explanation that works for you?" and giving up the quest for truth.. then getting pissed off if other people refuse to.. because it contradicts your selfish and lazy assumptions?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



The quest for truth never ends. As you alluded to earlier, God is big, bigger than most people care to think about. When one begins contemplating God and communing with God, then you begin to realize perhaps your spirit isn't bound by space and time, nor geography.

___________________________

That sounds cool except for the god stuff and the whole "communion" bizness.. which just sounds kind of gay. You don't think your experience of "communing with god" is just a euphoric sensation that the brain undergoes when it thinks it's magically tied together all the unknown secrets of the universe into something that ONLY YOU are special enough to understand?



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please, feel free to add questions.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Why don't you stop staring over the top of your glasses? It makes you look dweebish.


___________________________

I like that picture because it looks like I'm doing exactly what I'm doing... sizing you up. So far, you seem like a nice guy who doesn't really want to fuck with the serious questions and so he settles for whatever seems like a reasonable answer as long as he doesn't have to bother with any excessive scrutiny because scrutiny takes brain power and brain power takes time and time takes you away from whatever it is that you like to do like fish or woodworking or porn or whatever.

Wes: Yeah right, you're a cult member, face it.

Bridge: I was a memebr of the Blue Öyster Cult fan club when I was around 14 or 15, does that count?

W: because IF there were a god it would likely be inconceivable and not susceptable to whether or not you choose to believe in it. Have a conception of an abstract does not lend to the validity of that abstract, thought it may seem to you like a plausible idea.. that does not mean that it has any bearing on reality.

B: God isn't inconceivable. Look up Anselm's Arguement (google search or look for it here on sciforums as I have already pasted it on some thread or another) for further evidence. All the major scholars, intellectuals, bums on skidrow, etc. have all come to the same conclusion regarding the question of IF there is a God or IF there isn't a God......it isn't possible to prove or disprove so the situation is essentially STALEMATE.

W: see above

B: no, you see above :)

W: You think highly of your "spririt" then eh? That's amazing. You are not god or equivalent to god dude, at least I'm almost positive... sorry.

B: Yes to the first and I never claimed to be God or equivalent to God to the second.

W: Okay I do. I like my calculus book, oh.. and douglas adams. No, Piers Anthony. *shrug* The bible is not holy unless you make it that way and when you do that, it really only is to you and the others who think it so... which doesn't mean much to me..

B: I'm quite certain your calculus book is only important to you and the others who think so and I'm positive it doesn't mean much to me. BUT.....if I ever became inspired enough or enthusiastic enough, I'm quite certain I could change that perspective about that book and learning more about calculus.
Douglas Adams was a brilliant man, that much I'm certain we'd both agree on.

W: But he WAS that? Socialism is generally bad in my opinion.

B: Tell me about it. National socialism almost cost me my existence, seeing my pappy was running around hiding from the Nazis in occupied Holland during WWII. Jesus was a socialist in a much more defined manner, one that is quite different from the modern definitions or ideas associated with it.

W: I only feel compelled to repudiate that which is bullshit. I do not grasp bullshit as truth, IMO theists do.

B: Are you willing to believe that all life as we know it is just a cosmic accident, a by-product of random chance and dumb luck? If yes, I rest my case. If no, examine the universal Darwinism you've been taught to accept and embrace since kindergarten.

W: Okay, maybe just a little, but are you saying you don't understand the question or you just don't deem it valid? I think it's a pretty important question.

B: IN REFERENCE TO: "How your your opinion have any bearing on objective physical reality?" translated through the mescaline filter: "How does your opinion have any bearing on objective physical reality?"

Yeah, it's important but like the old saying goes, opinions are like assholes, everybody has one. I don't want to get into some dissertation on Aristotle, besides I'm still trying to finish Hawking's book on the Universe.

W: But but... you... man, how can you live in circles like that?? I believe in god because god is true, the truth is that god exist. god therefore exists. That shit is SO weak man, ack.

B: Hey, you asked the questions, sorry you don't like the answers. It beats the hell out of believing in nothing, IMHO.

Skipping to the juicy part.....

W: That sounds cool except for the god stuff and the whole "communion" bizness.. which just sounds kind of gay. You don't think your experience of "communing with god" is just a euphoric sensation that the brain undergoes when it thinks it's magically tied together all the unknown secrets of the universe into something that ONLY YOU are special enough to understand?

B: Do you by any stretch of the imagination remember how it felt when you grasped a concept and a friend of yours didn't? Learning to ride a bike perhaps? Nobody else could do it for you, you had to learn it for yourself. Sorry, it's a weak analogy but learning and growth are NOT limited to this physical world. If you think it is, well, I'm feeling sorry for you.

W: I like that picture because it looks like I'm doing exactly what I'm doing... sizing you up. So far, you seem like a nice guy who doesn't really want to fuck with the serious questions and so he settles for whatever seems like a reasonable answer as long as he doesn't have to bother with any excessive scrutiny because scrutiny takes brain power and brain power takes time and time takes you away from whatever it is that you like to do like fish or woodworking or porn or whatever.

B: You're right on all accounts. After all, I never came to a message board expecting to win converts to my way of thinking or choice of faith or spiritualism. I'm a real person, when the mood strikes me I'll go as deep as it takes to prove a point if I think it's worth it. I'm not saying you're not worth it Wes, but really, how can I take you seriously with that dweeby looking avatar?

:D

j/k

PAX !

before i jump into the questions, you made a lot of assumptions about theists. not all theists are western protestants. in fact, most people in the world are not.

Why do you choose your god?
//my concept of god (or godness as i like to call it) makes the most sense to me. "godness" is non-randomness. i believe the universe operates with purpose.

Why do you think it possible for a mortal to choose a god?
//mortals need something tangible to focus their thoughts on. in meditation you might hold a physical object from nature. in churches, it helps to have an idea though it may not be physical.

If there is a god, why do you think YOUR religious concept has any bearing on what that god is?
//i don't, i only know what works for me

Wouldn't you think that god would be more than the human mind can really comprehend?
//i'll say! i can hardly wrap my mind around what i said above. i take inspiration from ideas formed by others to help me, mostly physics scholars and even a little bit george lucas ;)

You really believe that your holy text is more important than the other holy texts?
//nope. as i was raised catholic my holy text might be the bible. it is important in that it has inspired some amazing literature/theater/film.

Was jesus the original socialist (for the christians, pardon)?
//while encouraging his followers to reject the laws of the ruling class, he maintained submission under god. so, no.

Why do you need this kind of false reassurance so badly?
//nobody's reassured me of anything. more often than not, people would fight me unarmed for their "faith"

How your your opinion have any bearing on objective physical reality?
//it would be really friggin cool if scientists could find the energy force or essense of godness

Why is your opinion more valid than the person of the other religion who is as religious as you but not of your religion?
//well if they're as religious as me, neither of us would be fighting. depending on the religion, theirs would be less valid if it's based on blind faith.

What makes YOU the expert?
//no one else could be the expert on what i believe. that's just silly.

It seems like a lot of people disagree with your choice of god, why do you think that is?
//cause they were raised to worship a human-like diety with no proof whatsoever, making them ever more likely to cling to it and violently defend it.

Do you think they are as serious about their religion as you are about yours?
//if they disagree with me, they are more serious. if they couldn't care less, probably about the same.

Aren't you really just "choosing the explanation that works for you?" and giving up the quest for truth.. then getting pissed off if other people refuse to.. because it contradicts your selfish and lazy assumptions?
//yes no no no in that order

I should have also asked: Is your conception of god tentative?

I'll reply to both of you as I have time.

First off, you're allright man, I appreciate your style. Don't worry, I'm not looking at your ass. Trust me.

Bridge: I was a memebr of the Blue Öyster Cult fan club when I was around 14 or 15, does that count?

W: No. It does count if you're a christian or jew or muslim or hindu or whatever religion.

B: God isn't inconceivable. Look up Anselm's Arguement (google search or look for it here on sciforums as I have already pasted it on some thread or another) for further evidence. All the major scholars, intellectuals, bums on skidrow, etc. have all come to the same conclusion regarding the question of IF there is a God or IF there isn't a God......it isn't possible to prove or disprove so the situation is essentially STALEMATE.

W: I apparently see reality differently than you. I my reality, you just told me there is no way to know the answer. (then, shouldn't that be your answer?)

B: no, you see above :)

W: uhm... no YOU see above :bugeye: :) Okay I'll do it. *kicks dirt and shuffles off to above*

B: Yes to the first and I never claimed to be God or equivalent to God to the second.

W: In a sense you did, if "god" is so far superior to you, even spiritually, it stands to reason that "he's" pretty much inconceivable. Ever been in the room with a person who is markedly smarter than you? Man, I can barely concieve of what they might be able to think.. now you think that I could even remotely fathom the nature of the supreme being? To me, that's just egocentrism at its peak.

B: I'm quite certain your calculus book is only important to you and the others who think so and I'm positive it doesn't mean much to me. BUT.....if I ever became inspired enough or enthusiastic enough, I'm quite certain I could change that perspective about that book and learning more about calculus.
Douglas Adams was a brilliant man, that much I'm certain we'd both agree on.

W: I'm just trying to make the point that the bible is a book as any other and to consider it more than that is cultish. I mean, sure.. like it.. love the damn thing if you want.. but it is metaphor and weak psychological manipulation.. that to me says "cult".

B: Tell me about it. National socialism almost cost me my existence, seeing my pappy was running around hiding from the Nazis in occupied Holland during WWII. Jesus was a socialist in a much more defined manner, one that is quite different from the modern definitions or ideas associated with it.

W: Hmm, I think he was the morbid inspiration for Stalin. He took what he saw as weak in jesus and tried to forge something strong... Okay, I'm talking shit but I do think jesus, if he existed.. was mentally ill. Crazy thing about your pappy.. wow. Glad you exist..

B: Are you willing to believe that all life as we know it is just a cosmic accident, a by-product of random chance and dumb luck? If yes, I rest my case. If no, examine the universal Darwinism you've been taught to accept and embrace since kindergarten.

W: I am only willing to believe the truth... that the questions to which you answer "god" are questions that cannot be answered as of yet. To me, that's the exciting thing about it, the fact that nobody knows. Gives me a reason to put a little thought into it, as you can see I have done. Dweeb time even.

B: IN REFERENCE TO: "How your your opinion have any bearing on objective physical reality?" translated through the mescaline filter: "How does your opinion have any bearing on objective physical reality?"

Yeah, it's important but like the old saying goes, opinions are like assholes, everybody has one. I don't want to get into some dissertation on Aristotle, besides I'm still trying to finish Hawking's book on the Universe.

W: But your opinion doesn't really have any bearing on reality, so why do you claim it to be more than your opinion? When you say "I am a christian" you have just agreed to a whole slew of shit that is simply made up. You're saying more than "I don't know". You're basically saying "I'm pretty sure I've got this whole thing figured out, and here's the right answer". That's how it sounds to me anyway.

B: Hey, you asked the questions, sorry you don't like the answers. It beats the hell out of believing in nothing, IMHO.

W: I think the truth is more important than "what you believe". It there is know way of knowing the truth, then there is your answer until the quest for truth changes the status of your knowledge. You may then integrate your new knowledge into your world view while taking into account how tentative this new knowledge is. The interesting point to me is that from this angle, all knowledge is tentative.. so while you may be a smarty pants (or was it me?), you don't really know shit! This to me is a good balance between knowledge and knowing that your knowledge is always limited to an extent, no matter how real things seem. Hehe, you think things seem real? Drop a hit of acid or some shrooms.... in the aftermath you may realize your perception shapes your reality in ways you didn't think possible.

pardon, that was mostly rhetorical. blah.

B: Do you by any stretch of the imagination remember how it felt when you grasped a concept and a friend of yours didn't? Learning to ride a bike perhaps? Nobody else could do it for you, you had to learn it for yourself. Sorry, it's a weak analogy but learning and growth are NOT limited to this physical world. If you think it is, well, I'm feeling sorry for you.

W: No dude, I'm open to all that junk (I may refute you if I see you're just making up stupid shit, but I'll hear you out generally... of course unless you just spout dogma), I just don't need to have some bullshit explanation for it that I claim is true. I can just call it bullshit and be okay with that.

B: You're right on all accounts. After all, I never came to a message board expecting to win converts to my way of thinking or choice of faith or spiritualism. I'm a real person, when the mood strikes me I'll go as deep as it takes to prove a point if I think it's worth it. I'm not saying you're not worth it Wes, but really, how can I take you seriously with that dweeby looking avatar?

W: I only came here to talk shit. I was really hurting for intellectual stimulation and I've found it here. I like that.

I wouldn't take me too seriously. I'm just probing. Working on my writing skills, worknig on my brain and knowledge and philosophy. It's strange.. I feel like I leave part of my brain online. I'm part digital, and all of you people are voices in my head... I tune in on some of them... just as I would dissident concepts in my own thoughts... when I hear stuff I think is full of shit, it gets treated as if I thought it myself and then went "NO YOU FUCKING DUMBASS, ARE YOU GODDAMN RETARDED OR WHAT???? FOR FUCK'S SAKE GET YOUR SHIT TOGETHER". Hehe... ACK. Tired now.

Well snake, I prolly don't have to tell you that my perspective is quite similiar to yours... with a couple of exceptions.

First the aliens thing... can't relate, hope it was a joke. :)

And I just can't call a text "holy". Can't do it. Someone can think it that if they want I guess, but I will not.

Regardless you're all cool and shit and you know it, that's smooth. Cool brain you've got there. :D

I meant to mention before.. to all those who are listening:

Religion is a stupid thing based on faith IMO. I really don't care if you have to believe it, but I will continue to scoff at you and riducule you if you continue to attempt to debate your point.

Do you understand your fopa? (how do you spell that?). Faith? You have faith it some seemingly random thing and then try to debate why other people don't believe the same stupid shit you do. YOU CANNOT REASONABLY ASSERT FAITH REGARDING A RELIGION. It is literally impossible by definition. If you were a smart religious person (like many I know) you'd know better than to even discuss it outside of those who feel similarly.. because there's really no way to validly defend your stupid shit. You can be into whatever stupid shit you want, but if you had half a freakin clue, you'd learn not to argue about it... especially with someone who is versed in logic and reason. You don't understand how stupid it is. It's like me betting up on the pulpit and trying to explain religion to you and not understanding it at all. You'd look at me like I was a crackhead. That is why you get ridiculed here, I'm simply better at this than you are, like you are better at me at quoting scripture. Stay with your churchies, quote your scripture. I'll stay here and continue using my brain.

[quote]First the aliens thing... can't relate, hope it was a joke.[/quote

What's the f*%"$*& matter with you??? Never seen star trek?! It was on TV so it must be fact. Who needs books to prove facts anymore? I got sky..

Originally posted by SnakeLord
[quote]First the aliens thing... can't relate, hope it was a joke.[/quote

What's the f*%"$*& matter with you??? Never seen star trek?! It was on TV so it must be fact. Who needs books to prove facts anymore? I got sky..

I understand. Your faith based sky addiction is just my flavor of medicine. I'm into it! Take me to your leader baby, I'm hoping for hot assed blue alien bitches up on my jock!!!!!!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by wesmorris
[B]I'm interested in how theists answer these questions.

Why do you choose your god?

Don't remember ever making a choice.

Why do you think it possible for a mortal to choose a god?

Because mortals have the ability to choose.

If there is a god, why do you think YOUR religious concept has any bearing on what that god is?

As far as i know, all religions have bearing on what God is.

Wouldn't you think that god would be more than the human mind can really comprehend?

It would depend on the state of mind.

You really believe that your holy text is more important than the other holy texts?

No.

Was jesus the original socialist (for the christians, pardon)?

No.

Why do you need this kind of false reassurance so badly?

How do you know it is false?

How your your opinion have any bearing on objective physical reality?

How your your opinion, wach-u-talkenboutboy?

Why is your opinion more valid than the person of the other religion who is as religious as you but not of your religion?

Why don't you learn to ask proper questions?

What makes YOU the expert?

Expert at what?

It seems like a lot of people disagree with your choice of god, why do you think that is?

Ask yourself, your family, your friends and neighbours, then make your own mind up.

Do you think they are as serious about their religion as you are about yours?

I don't know, what do you think?

Aren't you really just "choosing the explanation that works for you?"

Yes.

and giving up the quest for truth

No.

then getting pissed off if other people refuse to..

Refuse to what? Give up the quest for truth?

because it contradicts your selfish and lazy assumptions?

What selfish and lazy assumptions are those?

Love

Jan Ardena.

Don't remember ever making a choice.

\Regardless of your memory, you have free will and thusly choose your god.

Because mortals have the ability to choose.

\Yeah, but how is it that you think you can CHOOSE the "creator" or however your conception goes. Isn't it the "creator" just IS? Like for instance a rock. You don't CHOOSE the rock, the rock is. How can you "choose god"? When IF "god" exists, "god" then simply IS and is not what you "choose".

As far as i know, all religions have bearing on what God is.

\See above. How can a human conception have any bearing on something which is generally by definition so far greater than the human himself? Are you saying that the thought of god itself is the reality? I would say that it IS reality, but a reality that only exists inside the abstract world of beholder.

It would depend on the state of mind.

\That is sheer egocentrism. I don't know how you could claim to be so reverent towards the exhaulted one and maintain such irreverence simultaneously. I personally would think that IF there were some sort of "god" it would literally be beyond my comprehension because I'm merely a simple human. I am not omnipresent and could thusly not even concieve of what that state could be like.

No.

\Respect.

No.

\Just a wild theory I have really anyway. Just pushing buttons to see what happens. Uh, I would contend though that if jesus existed he would be incarcerated due to mental illness by today's standards.

How do you know it is false?

\It's just my most reasonable guess. While you seem like a reasonable human for the most part, your beliefs are not... I'm pretty sure my lack of beliefs regarding the issue is perfectly reasonable.

How your your opinion, wach-u-talkenboutboy?

\You couldn't figure out the typo? My bad. "how DOES your opinion... ". Understand the question now?

Why don't you learn to ask proper questions?

\That's childish. I'm that way sometimes so I really can't say much except to label it as is appropriate.

Expert at what?

\Expert at discerning the nature of the universe, which is what you'd have to be to claim intimate knowledge of "god" right? Oh, or a lemming or mentally ill or something. Welcome to the age of reason.

Ask yourself, your family, your friends and neighbours, then make your own mind up.

\Done. It's because your definition of "god" or choice thereof is as random as my choice of underwear on a daily basis. You've picked some random bullshit theory that seems plausible because you are a lemming or you were brainwashed into it as a child and you love the people who taught you so it must be right and you'll continue to make it right because to realize it's stupid would be to dishonor the memory of the lessons you learned from ones you love. I can forgive it, but that doesn't mean that you aren't responsible for your ignorance and further, the ignorance you spread.

I don't know, what do you think?

\Definately. Some moreso, some less.

Yes.

\Then why do you claim it to be true?

No.

\I disagree, you now filter all other potential truths through this assumption, which is a majorly limiting factor. You've chosen a subset of possible solutions to a ethical/philosophical problem by choosing your "god". By choosing "god" in your conception, you rule out all other possibilities thusly limiting your quest for truth to a subset based on sheer conjecture resulting from emotional reactions on your part.

Refuse to what? Give up the quest for truth?

\Yes.

What selfish and lazy assumptions are those?

\The ones where you assume through your intimate knowledge of whatever, that you have some kind of clue as to nature of "god" or the creation of the universe.

How your your opinion, wach-u-talkenboutboy?

One of human frailties.... be pedantic.

When in doubt just answer a question by asking a question:

"What colour are your eyes?"

"what colour would you like them to be?"

It's the easiest way to avoid having to answer.

before i jump into the questions, you made a lot of assumptions about theists. not all theists are western protestants. in fact, most people in the world are not.

I know. I'm really only using generalizations, which is kind of lame I guess, but it's the easiest way to get the ball rollling... then each case can be evaluated individually.

Why do you choose your god?
//my concept of god (or godness as i like to call it) makes the most sense to me. "godness" is non-randomness. i believe the universe operates with purpose.

Hmm... see to me, you're kind of mincing words. To me, given the general conception of god that I seem faced with, for instance the typical christian variety, I don't like the word "god" at all. Mostly because you have to come up with "your own conception" and blah blah. I don't like words that describe "the creator" or "the supreme being" or "the life-force" in terms so vague as that really you're expected to come up with your own definition. Why is it a word if you have to define it every time you use it. Just fucking use the explanation of the definition. Topics like "hey, how does the universe work?" IMO deserve significantly more reverence and awe that "uh.... god?". If you're going to bother to have a conversation referring to your conception of "god" you might as well just spell out the conception and forget about the whole "god" thing. *shrug* Maybe I'm just a prick.

Why do you think it possible for a mortal to choose a god?
//mortals need something tangible to focus their thoughts on. in meditation you might hold a physical object from nature. in churches, it helps to have an idea though it may not be physical.

That doesn't really make sense to me. Maybe you just didn't explain what you mean in a way that I can understand. For instance I don't think "an idea" is tangible.

If there is a god, why do you think YOUR religious concept has any bearing on what that god is?
//i don't, i only know what works for me

so you think "yeah, I know some stuff about the ultimate power" or however you concieve it... which means that you realy expect that if you were suddenly to be faced with "god" it would be pretty much what you thought? I mean it's nice that you're secure and all, but isn't that just... uh... kind of presumptuous to say the least? I mean, I'd contend that remotest hint that your "conception of god" has anything more to do with the ACTUAL god, IF it exists, is pretty much the stupidest thing going. It's absolutely retarded, presumptuous, arrogant and uhm... well.. just dumb.

I suppose I'm just saying that my epistomological perspective is that all knowledge is tentative and any assertion regarding "god" is also as such.... so when you say "yeah this is right for me" you're saying, "my knowledge isn't tentative" and that is distubing to me because it makes you dangerous. Someone to whom knowledge is tentative is much more likely to have a realistic perspective on knowledge itself.

Okay I'm full of shit. I thought I had a point, pardon.

Wouldn't you think that god would be more than the human mind can really comprehend?
//i'll say! i can hardly wrap my mind around what i said above. i take inspiration from ideas formed by others to help me, mostly physics scholars and even a little bit george lucas ;)

that is more respect than I see most people show. booya kasha. Respect.

You really believe that your holy text is more important than the other holy texts?
//nope. as i was raised catholic my holy text might be the bible. it is important in that it has inspired some amazing literature/theater/film.

And a lot of other junk too. I give the people involved the credit, but yeah... the bible can be a tool for art and inspiration for great deeds... as can any inspiring item.

Was jesus the original socialist (for the christians, pardon)?
//while encouraging his followers to reject the laws of the ruling class, he maintained submission under god. so, no.

You're saying he was a rebel? Maybe so, but I his message was pretty much that of socialism in my opinion.

Why do you need this kind of false reassurance so badly?
//nobody's reassured me of anything. more often than not, people would fight me unarmed for their "faith"

It does seem as such... sadly. Bunch of dummies.

How your your opinion have any bearing on objective physical reality?

//it would be really friggin cool if scientists could find the energy force or essense of godness

yeah, it could happen, hard to say when really the fundamental structure of the universe is likely not even concieved of as yet. Interesting times ahead though man, all bets are off. It's really almost impossible to even remotely predict was is and isn't possible.

Why is your opinion more valid than the person of the other religion who is as religious as you but not of your religion?

//well if they're as religious as me, neither of us would be fighting. depending on the religion, theirs would be less valid if it's based on blind faith.

It does seem that there's a lot of that blind faith thing going around.

What makes YOU the expert?
//no one else could be the expert on what i believe. that's just silly.

I'd assume you'd know that's not point. You are answering the wrong question. What makes you the expert on what god is? How is it that you think the odds of "your conception" of "the creator" or however you personally redefine god, has any bearing on reality whatsoever? YOu'd have to consider yourself pretty damned gifted, IMO to have singlehandedly resolved the exact flavor of the hypnotic ice-cream cone that humanity has been slurping on throughout its initial attainment of consciousness. That's pretty damned impressive to me. You MUST be an expert... right? Maybe you're just egotistical? Eh, I am too, but still.. hehe, you must be pretty badass, solving all of mankinds wonders and all like that. *high five* You go man, you go!

It seems like a lot of people disagree with your choice of god, why do you think that is?
//cause they were raised to worship a human-like diety with no proof whatsoever, making them ever more likely to cling to it and violently defend it.

Hmm.. regardless of your conception, people are going to disagree because everyone thinks they have figured out and for some reason that I have a hard time fathoming sometimes, most people simply cannot accept "there is no answer right now.. sorry" as an answer. I completely understand it yet I'm completely baffled by it at the same time. It's very very simple.. nobody knows.. next question. DAMNIT people, get it together. I guess you can't. Argh. Glad some other people are reasonable too. Argh.

JUST FOR THE RECORD: IMO, you are not necessarily unreasonable in a manner that matters to me if you are a theist. It only matters to me when you start trying to justify your ridiculous assumptions to other people that I feel obligated to attack you, such that you might hear the truth and snap out of your theological haze. Why? Because I love people and I love brains and cannot stand to seem them corrupted in such a offensive manner. Dogma is my enemy, circular reasoning brings me right down man.. I gotsta represent for the west side G!!! RESPECT!! Booya Kasha.

Do you think they are as serious about their religion as you are about yours?
//if they disagree with me, they are more serious. if they couldn't care less, probably about the same.

Well, you seem pretty reasonable... I'm just kind of a prick, so pardon me if you don't mind. it's my pet character flaw.

Aren't you really just "choosing the explanation that works for you?" and giving up the quest for truth.. then getting pissed off if other people refuse to.. because it contradicts your selfish and lazy assumptions?
//yes no no no in that order

1) Would you agree then, that all knowledge is tentative?
2) okay
3) You don't seem like it, sweet
4) Come on, just a lil bit.. you do seem to have made some assumptions there.. while I'd agree they do seem more rational than a standard christian gig, they are still significant and somewhat unreasonable assumptions (I think you shouldn't commit for lack of evidence either way.. due to a lack of real methodology by which to discern a reasonable answer)

Just as people have faith in natural selection. So-called lots of evidence, but no one has the proof for it either! In a court of law it would be called circumstantial evidence. Figure that one out!

So, I guess people who believe in God, are hypocrites just like those that believe in natural selection. It's not a one way street! Your old enough-you should have figured that out a long time ago!

Originally posted by norad
Just as people have faith in natural selection. So-called lots of evidence, but no one has the proof for it either! In a court of law it would be called circumstantial evidence. Figure that one out!

Okay: DONE... I've got it here for you: Um.. Natural Selection is a theory. God is not a theory, it's a basis for a religion. Natural Selection is tentative. "Holy Scripture" is NOT tentative. Can you see the difference?
Originally posted by norad

So, I guess people who believe in God, are hypocrites just like those that believe in natural selection. It's not a one way street!

It's not a street.
Originally posted by norad

Your old enough-you should have figured that out a long time ago!

Thanks?

I'm sorry if I offended you, but I think you see my point. I know that religion thinks that this is true, but it seems to me that scientists think natural selection is true as well. So, no hard feelings. Have a good one Wes. I like you, haven't debated with you, but I like you. You seem relatively level headed.

Regards,

norad

I'm sorry if I offended you.

\You didn't.. but my experience here and mood at the moment... well I've found myself somewhat terse. Sorry, I just have a tendency to be kind of a prick.

but I think you see my point.

\No offense I swear, but I only saw that your point was invalid. I've seen that one many times before and it's really just bullshit. It's a way of irrationally justifying one's assumptions such that one does not look stupid.

I know that religion thinks that this is true, but it seems to me that scientists think natural selection is true as well.

\In general I'm sure they do.. but come up with a more rational explanation and you'll be given a million dollars and a nobel prize. Come up with a new god? Uh.. well, there's only one right? How do you think you have any knowledge of that god? Blah blah, I've said enough. If you are still asking these kind of questions you did not understand my argument. Really, I'm becoming confident that my argument is not reasonably refutable.

So, no hard feelings. Have a good one Wes. I like you, haven't debated with you, but I like you. You seem relatively level headed.

\Thanks, I always can appreciate the kind words.... I haven't seen many of your posts but being civil even when I'm a prick certainly gains much respect. Booya Kasha. Keep it real... on the west side (of stains, because it's the best)! (Da Ali G dude's movie, if you're perplexed at my weird comments).

I don't know how level headed I am, but I do believe that I'm gifted in this arena of thought. Could be I'm just an egotistical prick. Hard to say when you're me.

(hehe, *wonders if there are people lined up to confirm that one for me*)

ha-ha, trust me, you are far from a prick! You haven't read my posts in other threads! You are tame compared to me.

How can my point be invalid? You didn't explain.

Have a good one, Wes, time for me to pound back the rest of my beer ;)

Originally posted by norad

ha-ha, trust me, you are far from a prick! You haven't read my posts in other threads! You are tame compared to me.

to be fair, you prolly haven't read mine either eh?

Originally posted by norad
How can my point be invalid? You didn't explain.

*sigh*

but I did. I've been doing it through this whole thread and I did it in specific response to your statement. read it again please if you really want an explanation. think about it a little... if you still don't think it covers it, let me know.
Originally posted by norad

Have a good one, Wes, time for me to pound back the rest of my beer ;)

right on. I think I'm gonna play some gta 3