God either exists inside realiy or outside reality.

-----

If God 'exists' outside reality he simply does not exist.
Definition of reality:
re·al·i·ty
–noun, plural -ties for 3, 5–7.
1. the state or quality of being real.
2. resemblance to what is real.
3. a real thing or fact.
4. real things, facts, or events taken as a whole; state of affairs: the reality of the business world; vacationing to escape reality.
5. Philosophy.
a. something that exists independently of ideas concerning it.
b. something that exists independently of all other things and from which all other things derive.
6. something that is real.
7. something that constitutes a real or actual thing, as distinguished from something that is merely apparent.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/reality

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If God exists inside reality he exists inside the universe as the universe equates reality. Because the universe by definition contains all that is real, there is no "external reality" (or space, or time) in which it can exist or have been "created".

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This either means that:
- God came into existence together with the universe, or
- God came into existence later on in the universe.

In either case this means God couldnt have created the universe.

-----

Lets look at the statement that 'God came into existence together with the universe'.
This actually cant be true because of:
From The Blind Watchmaker by Richard Dawkins
"a deity capable of engineering all the organised complexity in the world, either instantaneously or by guiding evolution, . . . must already have been vastly complex in the first place . . ."
He calls this "postulating organised complexity without offering an explanation."

-----

So God must have come into existence after the universe came into existence.
You could say that God has been created by another God-like being, but this would be circular reasoning.
The only other explanation i can think of is that God must have evolved from 'lesser' beings.
If this is true then there is a race of Gods somewhere.
Alternatively, God is the sole survivor of the God-race. Which would mean Gods race is not immortal.

-----

So IF God exists he did not create the universe, he was mortal and most probably not the only one of his species.
It starts to sound like God may have been an 'alien'.

Either that or he doesnt exist at all.

-----

What are your thoughts on the ideas i presented above ?

Edit: Crap, i screwed up the title... :shrug:

God exists outside of reality because God is the source of reality, and thus is the only thing that actually exists and is real...so problem solved

"You bit him... Under his shorts".
It's all happiness anyway, doesn't matter if he's real or not.

God exists outside of reality because God is the source of reality, and thus is the only thing that actually exists and is real...so problem solved

So you are saying God doesnt exist... interesting.

A well thought out account, thanks for that. I do see a problem however; this idea of what lies beyond what's "real" exists regardless of whether a God is introduced or not. For example, we commonly accept the finding that the universe (what you've equated with reality) is expanding. Well okay...expanding into what? :)

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this.

A well thought out account, thanks for that. I do see a problem however; this idea of what lies beyond what's "real" exists regardless of whether a God is introduced or not. For example, we commonly accept the finding that the universe (what you've equated with reality) is expanding. Well okay...expanding into what? :)

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this.

Into nothingness, beyond the universe there is nothing. There cant be something beyond the universe because by definition the universe is all there is. Like i said in the OP:
"Because the universe by definition contains all that is real, there is no "external reality" (or space, or time) in which it can exist or have been "created"."

how come fiction is not real and yet it is inside reality?

how come fiction is not real and yet it is inside reality?

Fiction is real, the things described in fiction arent.

So you are saying God doesnt exist... interesting.

No, I'm saying the exact opposite, it must your atheistic faith blinding you again...you see God is the source of reality, and thus the only thing that exists, so reality doesn't exist as we know it...

Into nothingness, beyond the universe there is nothing. There cant be something beyond the universe because by definition the universe is all there is. Like i said in the OP:
"Because the universe by definition contains all that is real, there is no "external reality" (or space, or time) in which it can exist or have been "created"."

But if simply for conceptual purposes, we must imagine the universe to have some sort of imaginary boundary if we are to take this to be true; indeed, for something to expand, it must have boundaries to begin with. So even if you are right, this "external reality" must exist, if only in our imaginations, in order for the thought not to be counter-intuitive.

My point is that the same is easily done by the theist concerning a God who fits much more seamlessly into the scenario, because he is pure concept (I won't go as far as to say "imaginary" though I am tempted to) to begin with. They simply will say something like VitalOne has said, and as you can see, the problem is at once solved for them. I think we would both agree that such an "answer" is at best unsatisfying, and at worst lazy and potentially wrong. But your concern is not solely one of just theologians, it's also one that physicists and cosmologists are struggling to find solid answers to. I think it is safe to say that science will get ever closer to shedding more light on this subject, but until then, this critique doesn't have the argumentative leverage I think you--as well as I--wish it did.

If reality doesnt exist how is God supposed to exist ?

But if simply for conceptual purposes, we must imagine the universe to have some sort of imaginary boundary if we are to take this to be true; indeed, for something to expand, it must have boundaries to begin with. So even if you are right, this "external reality" must exist, if only in our imaginations, in order for the thought not to be counter-intuitive.

My point is that the same is easily done by the theist concerning a God who fits much more seamlessly into the scenario, because he is pure concept (I won't go as far as to say "imaginary" though I am tempted to) to begin with. They simply will say something like VitalOne has said, and as you can see, the problem is at once solved for them. I think we would both agree that such an "answer" is at best unsatisfying, and at worst lazy and potentially wrong. But your concern is not solely one of just theologians, it's also one that physicists and cosmologists are struggling to find solid answers to. I think it is safe to say that science will get ever closer to shedding more light on this subject, but until then, this critique doesn't have the argumentative leverage I think you--as well as I--wish it did.

You are probably right. But is far as VitalOnes comment is concerned, it contradicts itself in multiple ways.

You are probably right. But is far as VitalOnes comment is concerned, it contradicts itself in multiple ways.

Well of course, what about the thought of God doesn't? ;)

Well of course, what about the thought of God doesn't? ;)

Thats actually the whole point, in order to belief in God you must ignore the contradiction. That is irrational, i just dont understand why people choose to delude themselves.
Its like they dont want to see it.

If reality doesnt exist how is God supposed to exist ?
Reality doesn't exist in the same way that a dream doesn't exist...although the dream exists as something, it has no actual existence,

Thats actually the whole point, in order to belief in God you must ignore the contradiction. That is irrational, i just dont understand why people choose to delude themselves.
Its like they dont want to see it.

I think you're exactly right, they don't want to see it. I'm a testament to this, I used to believe fervently and devoutly in the Christian God myself. Being a seeker of what is true, I decided it would only be fair for me to honestly examine my beliefs and rid them of contradiction. The result of that is surely apparent to you; the beliefs could not stand up to my intellectual honesty. That's not to say I couldn't come up with some surreptitious explanation for something in question that also incorporated my ideas of God, but they were at best flimsy and at worst downright inconsistent. It is strongly a matter of comfort for them, it takes guts to question and shed an entire belief system. My empathy and encouragement goes out to any who are in the process.

This either means that:
- God came into existence together with the universe, or
- God came into existence later on in the universe.An alternative you've missed....

God is the universe.

i.e. God is a personification of the universe.
A number of people state (with confidence, it must be said, and little else) that God is "omniscient", "omnipotent" and "eternal" - which can also be argued for the universe, for reality.

Just a thought.

An alternative you've missed....

God is the universe.

i.e. God is a personification of the universe.
A number of people state (with confidence, it must be said, and little else) that God is "omniscient", "omnipotent" and "eternal" - which can also be argued for the universe, for reality.

Just a thought.

If God is the universe, then there is no God and no point of using the word God, which is why pantheism is disgusting...

Reality doesn't exist in the same way that a dream doesn't exist...although the dream exists as something, it has no actual existence,

So what are you saying ?

So what are you saying ?

I'm saying the world is an illusion, the only thing that isn't an illusion is God, because God is only thing that exists, the basis of reality, the origin of all, the source of all, all emanates from God, who is one without a second...just as in a dream, the dream world is an illusion, having no actual existence, the source of the dream, the origin of the dream, etc...is the only thing that really exists...

An alternative you've missed....

God is the universe.

i.e. God is a personification of the universe.
A number of people state (with confidence, it must be said, and little else) that God is "omniscient", "omnipotent" and "eternal" - which can also be argued for the universe, for reality.

Just a thought.

Yes, but this cannot be the God of the bible.
Also, he didnt create the universe in that case. Unless he created himself, which theist deny btw.

I can live with this idea of "God" though. According to this idea there is no actual God only reality.

I'm saying the world is an illusion, the only thing that isn't an illusion is God, because God is only thing that exists, the basis of reality, the origin of all, the source of all, all emanates from God, who is one without a second...just as in a dream, the dream world is an illusion, having no actual existence, the source of the dream, the origin of the dream, etc...is the only thing that really exists...

What I'd be interested in discussing with you is on what grounds do you determine that your idea of God is the true reality and that this one--which is the one you operate in and indeed the very one you use to make that conclusion--is the illusion?

If God is the universe, then there is no God and no point of using the word God, which is why pantheism is disgusting...

:confused: So you think other religions than your own are disgusting ?
Does it scare you ?

I'm saying the world is an illusion, the only thing that isn't an illusion is God, because God is only thing that exists, the basis of reality, the origin of all, the source of all, all emanates from God, who is one without a second...just as in a dream, the dream world is an illusion, having no actual existence, the source of the dream, the origin of the dream, etc...is the only thing that really exists...

So God didnt actually create us, or the universe ? It all an illusion ? If we dont exist how can we be sure of what exists and what doesnt exist ? This is getting weird...

What I'd be interested in discussing with you is on what grounds do you determine that your idea of God is the true reality and that this one--which is the one you operate in and indeed the very one you use to make that conclusion--is the illusion?

Exactly.. :)

:confused: So you think other religions than your own are disgusting ?
Does it scare you ?
No, I don't think other religions are disgusting, just particularly pantheism, which says that the universe = God, why not just say there is no God...

What I'd be interested in discussing with you is on what grounds do you determine that your idea of God is the true reality and that this one--which is the one you operate in and indeed the very one you use to make that conclusion--is the illusion?
"The Father liveth within you" just as Jesus says, even Gautama Buddha agrees that reality is an illusion and that something within us causes the material world to exists...

How did I come to this conclusion that the world is like a dream? Well from my personal experiences, mainly..The world isn't exactly like dream, it's more like a very very concentrated form of a dream, we each live in our own personal reality (which will be known as a fact once the many-worlds interpretation is verified, then the many-minds will be verified as true), God is the origin of all realities and all existences, we cause each of our experiences with the thought-energy (or karma) within us, matter is simply a very concentrated form of thought-energy, there are infinite universes or realities, everything in itself is another reality, each new moment is an entirely new universe or reality, the purpose of life is to achieve the highest perfection, which is achieving the point where you enjoy every infinitesimal moment (being freed from all anger, fear, sorrow, doubt, frustration, boredom, and all other deficiencies), this can be achieved by destroying the defiling impulses, insecurities, etc...within you...

It's real simple to know if it's true, just monitor your bodily feelings and thoughts, you'll find that every experience directly correlates to it..

No, I don't think other religions are disgusting, just particularly pantheism, which says that the universe = God, why not just say there is no God...


"The Father liveth within you" just as Jesus says, even Gautama Buddha agrees that reality is an illusion and that something within us causes the material world to exists...

How did I come to this conclusion that the world is like a dream? Well from my personal experiences, mainly..The world isn't exactly like dream, it's more like a very very concentrated form of a dream, we each live in our own personal reality (which will be known as a fact once the many-worlds interpretation is verified, then the many-minds will be verified as true), God is the origin of all realities and all existences, we cause each of our experiences with the thought-energy (or karma) within us, matter is simply a very concentrated form of thought-energy, there are infinite universes or realities, everything in itself is another reality, each new moment is an entirely new universe or reality, the purpose of life is to achieve the highest perfection, which is achieving the point where you enjoy every infinitesimal moment (being freed from all anger, fear, sorrow, doubt, frustration, boredom, and all other deficiencies), this can be achieved by destroying the defiling impulses, insecurities, etc...within you...

It's real simple to know if it's true, just monitor your bodily feelings and thoughts, you'll find that every experience directly correlates to it..

Well atheism is real simple too, if you know that its true.

God is the origin of all realities and all existences, we cause each of our experiences with the thought-energy (or karma) within us, matter is simply a very concentrated form of thought-energy, there are infinite universes or realities, everything in itself is another reality, each new moment is an entirely new universe or reality, the purpose of life is to achieve the highest perfection, which is achieving the point where you enjoy every infinitesimal moment (being freed from all anger, fear, sorrow, doubt, frustration, boredom, and all other deficiencies), this can be achieved by destroying the defiling impulses, insecurities, etc...within you...

Those are your personal experiences ?

No, I don't think other religions are disgusting, just particularly pantheism, which says that the universe = God, why not just say there is no God...


"The Father liveth within you" just as Jesus says, even Gautama Buddha agrees that reality is an illusion and that something within us causes the material world to exists...

How did I come to this conclusion that the world is like a dream? Well from my personal experiences, mainly..The world isn't exactly like dream, it's more like a very very concentrated form of a dream, we each live in our own personal reality (which will be known as a fact once the many-worlds interpretation is verified, then the many-minds will be verified as true), God is the origin of all realities and all existences, we cause each of our experiences with the thought-energy (or karma) within us, matter is simply a very concentrated form of thought-energy, there are infinite universes or realities, everything in itself is another reality, each new moment is an entirely new universe or reality, the purpose of life is to achieve the highest perfection, which is achieving the point where you enjoy every infinitesimal moment (being freed from all anger, fear, sorrow, doubt, frustration, boredom, and all other deficiencies), this can be achieved by destroying the defiling impulses, insecurities, etc...within you...

It's real simple to know if it's true, just monitor your bodily feelings and thoughts, you'll find that every experience directly correlates to it..

So by your account, you would agree that your world view is one personal reality among many? If so, then this means all of this only matters to you as we cannot have the same personal reality you do. What we are left with is a highly unstable picture of what is real and what is not, the definition of what is "real" being completely subjective to the interpreter. Not only does that mean you can only speak for yourself (which isn't a bad thing) but it means that you, by your own explanation have to grant my world view with just as much validity as yours. And in my world view, I think there is no God, and I think this plane we operate in not at all like a concentrated dream.

What I'm trying to ask is largely my original question; the only ground you've provided is merely your own personal interpretation, which I do not wish to devalue or denounce, but that by definition, anyone but yourself shouldn't accept. Do I take this correctly?

God either exists inside realiy or outside reality.

-----

If God 'exists' outside reality he simply does not exist.
Definition of reality:
re·al·i·ty
–noun, plural -ties for 3, 5–7.
1. the state or quality of being real.
2. resemblance to what is real.
3. a real thing or fact.
4. real things, facts, or events taken as a whole; state of affairs: the reality of the business world; vacationing to escape reality.
5. Philosophy.
a. something that exists independently of ideas concerning it.
b. something that exists independently of all other things and from which all other things derive.
6. something that is real.
7. something that constitutes a real or actual thing, as distinguished from something that is merely apparent.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/reality

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If God exists inside reality he exists inside the universe as the universe equates reality.WRONG! Where in the definition does reality equal universe? The universe is merely the boundary in space where light cannot have travelled further and thus cannot be observed.

We CAN NOT know what exists outside of what we can observe. Further we do NOT know the boundary of our own understanding, and thus cannot be the judgement on the validity of the arguments of what could or could not exist in the reality as we know it. Perhaps there is more to reality than what we can observe? Or if we can observe it, more than we can understand? Or if we can understand it, more than we can validate into arguments con or pro.

Your definition seems to be blinding you, you speak of the universe as some container, holding all that is real. This is not so, it is not a valid truth based on human reason that the universe has any reality boundaries, in which the universe become unreal and thus everything outside it. If you speak of the universe as reality itself, that everything that is real is the universe, a part of it, or a whole of it, then because God is real that means that He is a part of reality or a whole of it, and thus the universe by your definition, but if you define the universe that way, then you shouldn't be mixing it up with the universe that has reality boundaries. We don't know either, if there can be another type of reality that is different from ours, perhaps even a extension from ours, which would make it outside of reality "as we know it".

Oh, and God is eternal, with His word He created all there is, without the word nothing would be.

You imply "not even God?".

I say "God is eternal, so He created everything else, God is the most meaningful, He HAD to be".

WRONG! Where in the definition does reality equal universe? The universe is merely the boundary in space where light cannot have travelled further and thus cannot be observed.

We CAN NOT know what exists outside of what we can observe. Further we do NOT know the boundary of our own understanding, and thus cannot be the judgement on the validity of the arguments of what could or could not exist in the reality as we know it. Perhaps there is more to reality than what we can observe? Or if we can observe it, more than we can understand? Or if we can understand it, more than we can validate into arguments con or pro.

Your definition seems to be blinding you, you speak of the universe as some container, holding all that is real. This is not so, it is not a valid truth based on human reason that the universe has any reality boundaries, in which the universe become unreal and thus everything outside it. If you speak of the universe as reality itself, that everything that is real is the universe, a part of it, or a whole of it, then because God is real that means that He is a part of reality or a whole of it, and thus the universe by your definition, but if you define the universe that way, then you shouldn't be mixing it up with the universe that has reality boundaries. We don't know either, if there can be another type of reality that is different from ours, perhaps even a extension from ours, which would make it outside of reality "as we know it".

Oh, and God is eternal, with His word He created all there is, without the word nothing would be.

You imply "not even God?".

I say "God is eternal, so He created everything else, God is the most meaningful, He HAD to be".

There is one fatal flaw in your reasoning. The universe is by definition ALL there is, everything that exists. There can be no thing other than the universe. So everything 'outside' the universe does not exist. Reality is all that exists, thus universe = reality.
Btw. i 'adopted' the 'outside' reality thing from the theists that claim God is outside reality. I my opinion there is no outside reality.

Also, i am not claiming to have proven anyhting. I am merely presenting my thoughts here for them to be discussed.

Oh, and God is eternal, with His word He created all there is, without the word nothing would be.

You imply "not even God?".

I say "God is eternal, so He created everything else, God is the most meaningful, He HAD to be".


Figures.. :rolleyes:
No preaching in this thread please.

there is no inside or outside reality, there is only reality.

Fiction is real, the things described in fiction arent.

if fiction is reality, then reality is fiction. fiction means that nothing really happens, things only appear to happen. it could be the same in life.

maybe the fictional entity, god, created reality? what else could create reality if not fiction?

what i'm really trying to say is that... reality is Nothing which created the god who dreamt everything, fiction... Nothing...

So by your account, you would agree that your world view is one personal reality among many? If so, then this means all of this only matters to you as we cannot have the same personal reality you do. What we are left with is a highly unstable picture of what is real and what is not, the definition of what is "real" being completely subjective to the interpreter. Not only does that mean you can only speak for yourself (which isn't a bad thing) but it means that you, by your own explanation have to grant my world view with just as much validity as yours. And in my world view, I think there is no God, and I think this plane we operate in not at all like a concentrated dream.
No, your world-view doesn't create reality, but we each exist in our own personal reality, our own personal universe, which is like a bubble, a mirage, etc....what is "real" is the truth...

Although it sounds paradoxical it's not difficult to understand, you see both you and I exist in this reality or world because everything is perfectly in-tune for this to happen, there are no paradoxes, in another reality this never happened, what determines your experiences is the thought-energy (or karma) superimposed within you...when you change yourself all your experiences change...


What I'm trying to ask is largely my original question; the only ground you've provided is merely your own personal interpretation, which I do not wish to devalue or denounce, but that by definition, anyone but yourself shouldn't accept. Do I take this correctly?
No, you can confirm this yourself by simply monitoring your bodily feelings and seeing that it directly correlates to all of your experiences, it is not that your environment causes your feelings, but your feelings cause your environment...

But it doesn't really matter what I believe or what you believe or accept, what only matters is what the actual truth is, it won't matter if any of you accept or reject what I said, because it's all true, and the truth is the truth, with or without evidence, with or without belief, with or without acceptance...

Those are your personal experiences ?

Yep, my personal experiences are great...

.you see God is the source of reality, and thus the only thing that exists,
so reality doesn't exist as we know it...
so if you take a rock and whack yourself in the face you shouldnt feel anything right,after all it aint real.

It would seem that God is quite litterally his own enviroment. When the bible says that Jesus was the first born of all creation Col 1:15 it implies that heaven had not been created yet nor any of the angels.

The question is where then did Jesus exist? Apparently God requires no enviroment in which to exist, Hense his own enviroment or reality in which in the begining Jesus existed with his father.

The universe and the world were created by Jesus from the safety of God himself.

"We CAN NOT know what exists outside of what we can observe..and thus cannot be the judgement on the validity of the arguments of what could or could not exist in the reality"

Ok.. So why say this?

"Oh, and God is eternal, with His word He created all there is, without the word nothing would be."

Why say it as if it's true, when you yourself just said you can't know?

We, as human beings can not know. Fortunantly someone does know.

No, your world-view doesn't create reality, but we each exist in our own personal reality, our own personal universe, which is like a bubble, a mirage, etc....what is "real" is the truth...

I understand what you are saying here but I don't think you do; the idea of "truth" is going to be within someone's personal reality and differ greatly from the next person's idea of truth. So saying that the truth is real doesn't get you anywhere, as it is also subject to this personal reality. We are still with this gap that one can only shout across: "It's true for me, so you have to stay in your universe and I have to stay in mine."


Although it sounds paradoxical it's not difficult to understand, you see both you and I exist in this reality or world because everything is perfectly in-tune for this to happen, there are no paradoxes, in another reality this never happened, what determines your experiences is the thought-energy (or karma) superimposed within you...when you change yourself all your experiences change...


So these alternate realities, we have no way of contacting them? And furthermore, aren't you being a bit over-dramatic with these "realities", wouldn't the gist be conveyed if we instead called them "possibilities"? It seems the latter works in the same way except is free from all the extra baggage that the tag "alternate reality" carries with it.


No, you can confirm this yourself by simply monitoring your bodily feelings and seeing that it directly correlates to all of your experiences, it is not that your environment causes your feelings, but your feelings cause your environment...

I am quite intrigued by this as it overlaps the self-fulfilling prophecy, a phenomenon I am very apt to think of when you speak this way. A word of caution however; merely because I can adopt a world view and have my experience resonate with it does not make that world view true. A kid who believes in Santa sees a jet plane light in the sky on Christmas Eve night and is sure that it is Rudolph's red nose. He would be tempted to count his experience as further proof that Santa surely exists, but that's a temptation I think he, as well as we, should resist.


But it doesn't really matter what I believe or what you believe or accept, what only matters is what the actual truth is, it won't matter if any of you accept or reject what I said, because it's all true, and the truth is the truth, with or without evidence, with or without belief, with or without acceptance...

Well this certainly is poetic, but there is a problem. The truth could be what it is without human consideration of the sort you listed above, but without evidence, how are they supposed to know what it is to begin with? Evidence is the bridge to truth and if we don't consider it, then truth may as well not exist as we will never have a compass to guide us to it.

Having said all that, and I don't mean to be pedantic, but you still haven't answered my original question. I understand what you believe, but I wish I understood why.

Celpha Fiael,

I understand what you are saying here but I don't think you do; the idea of "truth" is going to be within someone's personal reality and differ greatly from the next person's idea of truth.

Truth "is". Period.
If we accept something as "truth", it is either "truth" or a "lie".
But "truth" must "be".

We are still with this gap that one can only shout across: "It's true for me, so you have to stay in your universe and I have to stay in mine."

This can have no bearing on the "truth" regardless of whether they possess it or not.

The truth could be what it is without human consideration of the sort you listed above, but without evidence, how are they supposed to know what it is to begin with? Evidence is the bridge to truth and if we don't consider it, then truth may as well not exist as we will never have a compass to guide us to it.

Imagine being in a completely dark place, the size of ...say..a country. You reach into your pocket, and take out a pen-torch, you shine the torch, and what you see, you can use as "evidence" of your existence and origin. Would you agree that this doesn't even begin to deal with what "truth" is?

Jan.

Celpha Fiael,



Truth "is". Period.
If we accept something as "truth", it is either "truth" or a "lie".
But "truth" must "be".



This can have no bearing on the "truth" regardless of whether they possess it or not.



Imagine being in a completely dark place, the size of ...say..a country. You reach into your pocket, and take out a pen-torch, you shine the torch, and what you see, you can use as "evidence" of your existence and origin. Would you agree that this doesn't even begin to deal with what "truth" is?

Jan.

Jan,

I appreciate your response. You and I actually agree wholeheartedly on our ideas of truth, I believe that truth has to be and is not subjective to each individual; in other words, I believe in an objective truth just as you seemingly do. The reason I was speaking of truth in terms of a subjective experience is because that is what VitalOne's idea of truth reminds me of, and I was adhering to his territory to better understand his view point (I'd be lying if I said I wasn't trying to expose holes...ultimately with the intention of arriving at the consideration of an objective truth even!). I am meeting him halfway, if you will.

Jan,

I appreciate your response. You and I actually agree wholeheartedly on our ideas of truth, I believe that truth has to be and is not subjective to each individual; in other words, I believe in an objective truth just as you seemingly do. The reason I was speaking of truth in terms of a subjective experience is because that is what VitalOne's idea of truth reminds me of, and I was adhering to his territory to better understand his view point (I'd be lying if I said I wasn't trying to expose holes...ultimately with the intention of arriving at the consideration of an objective truth even!). I am meeting him halfway, if you will.

No...I never said the truth was subjective (wtf?), I wonder where you're getting that from, in fact I stated that the truth is the truth with or without evidence, with or without belief, etc...and on also said that the only thing that's real is the truth...

I understand what you are saying here but I don't think you do; the idea of "truth" is going to be within someone's personal reality and differ greatly from the next person's idea of truth. So saying that the truth is real doesn't get you anywhere, as it is also subject to this personal reality. We are still with this gap that one can only shout across: "It's true for me, so you have to stay in your universe and I have to stay in mine."
Wtf? I don't know how where you're getting this...how can I explain...the truth is objective and unchanging, and the truth is that we each exist in our personal reality/universe, the truth is that reality is an illusion, etc...it doesn't matter if you believe this or not, etc...


So these alternate realities, we have no way of contacting them? And furthermore, aren't you being a bit over-dramatic with these "realities", wouldn't the gist be conveyed if we instead called them "possibilities"? It seems the latter works in the same way except is free from all the extra baggage that the tag "alternate reality" carries with it.
Well eventually we'll have a way to contact them, all realities exist but we only this one right now, the only thing that actual exists is God, they're not simply possibilities but actual worlds, universes, etc...

Eventually this will be known as a scientific fact..., when it becomes verifiable...


I am quite intrigued by this as it overlaps the self-fulfilling prophecy, a phenomenon I am very apt to think of when you speak this way. A word of caution however; merely because I can adopt a world view and have my experience resonate with it does not make that world view true. A kid who believes in Santa sees a jet plane light in the sky on Christmas Eve night and is sure that it is Rudolph's red nose. He would be tempted to count his experience as further proof that Santa surely exists, but that's a temptation I think he, as well as we, should resist.
Hmm...how can I explain this...although we each exist in our own universe, our own world, our own reality, our views don't make up reality, they're just views....


Well this certainly is poetic, but there is a problem. The truth could be what it is without human consideration of the sort you listed above, but without evidence, how are they supposed to know what it is to begin with? Evidence is the bridge to truth and if we don't consider it, then truth may as well not exist as we will never have a compass to guide us to it.
The truth doesn't care about evidence...are you suggesting that the Sun revolved around the Earth until it was discovered that the Earth revolved around the Sun? Or would you agree with me and say that the Earth revolved around the Sun despite what people previously thought?


Having said all that, and I don't mean to be pedantic, but you still haven't answered my original question. I understand what you believe, but I wish I understood why.
What was your question? Why do I believe this? I already explained that...

Wtf? I don't know how where you're getting this...how can I explain...the truth is objective and unchanging, and the truth is that we each exist in our personal reality/universe, the truth is that reality is an illusion, etc...it doesn't matter if you believe this or not, etc...


Well eventually we'll have a way to contact them, all realities exist but we only this one right now, the only thing that actual exists is God, they're not simply possibilities but actual worlds, universes, etc...

Eventually this will be known as a scientific fact..., when it becomes verifiable...


Hmm...how can I explain this...although we each exist in our own universe, our own world, our own reality, our views don't make up reality, they're just views....


The truth doesn't care about evidence...are you suggesting that the Sun revolved around the Earth until it was discovered that the Earth revolved around the Sun? Or would you agree with me and say that the Earth revolved around the Sun despite what people previously thought?


What was your question? Why do I believe this? I already explained that...

There is a great deal of confusion here, let me try to clear some of it up. The reason I took your description of truth as ultimately a subjective one, even though you allow room for a mention of objective truth, is because of statements like these:


No, your world-view doesn't create reality, but we each exist in our own personal reality, our own personal universe, which is like a bubble, a mirage, etc....what is "real" is the truth...

when you change yourself all your experiences change...

it is not that your environment causes your feelings, but your feelings cause your environment...


You are viewing what you believe to be truth as objective. However, your definition of truth is at heart a subjective definition, with no other backing other than your personal experience (or personal reality as you would say). The reason I say that I wish I understood why you believe these things is because while you've offered details about what you believe, my original question is left unanswered. This was the closest thing to an answer you gave:


How did I come to this conclusion that the world is like a dream? Well from my personal experiences, mainly..


Here you say that what you believe of truth is backed by your personal experience. That is fine for you, but this means nothing outside of your personal experiences, a place that none of us can truly go. This allows for a tremendous potency of personal truth, but the other side of that coin is that it is tremendously ineffective as a universal truth to that same extent. In this way, what you define as truth is not objective in any sense of the word. So that is where my saying that ultimately, I take your view of truth to be a subjective one comes from.

Indeed, you've made this point yourself:


Hmm...how can I explain this...although we each exist in our own universe, our own world, our own reality, our views don't make up reality, they're just views....


So, simply stated, we can't accept "my personal experience" as ground for defining an objective truth. I think we're on agreement here.

A more refined version of my original question perhaps is in order. If I was to echo you and respond, "My personal experiences say that what you claim is not true." What makes your personal experience more legit than mine and what gives it any leverage over my personal experiences?

I hope this has clarified what I was saying and asking.

Emnos


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If God 'exists' outside reality he simply does not exist.
Definition of reality:
re·al·i·ty
–noun, plural -ties for 3, 5–7.
1. the state or quality of being real.
2. resemblance to what is real.
3. a real thing or fact.
4. real things, facts, or events taken as a whole; state of affairs: the reality of the business world; vacationing to escape reality.
5. Philosophy.
a. something that exists independently of ideas concerning it.
b. something that exists independently of all other things and from which all other things derive.
6. something that is real.
7. something that constitutes a real or actual thing, as distinguished from something that is merely apparent.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/reality

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the next question is whether you think the words "reality" and "matter" are synonymous ...

If God exists inside reality he exists inside the universe as the universe equates reality.
from your use of the word "universe" it appears that you do ....

Because the universe by definition contains all that is real,
"matter" and "what is real" being synonymous right?

there is no "external reality" (or space, or time) in which it can exist or have been "created".
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This either means that:
- God came into existence together with the universe, or
- God came into existence later on in the universe.

In either case this means God couldnt have created the universe.

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try looking up the word "transcendental"

Lets look at the statement that 'God came into existence together with the universe'.
This actually cant be true because of:
From The Blind Watchmaker by Richard Dawkins
"a deity capable of engineering all the organised complexity in the world, either instantaneously or by guiding evolution, . . . must already have been vastly complex in the first place . . ."
He calls this "postulating organised complexity without offering an explanation."

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as opposed to what?
postulating organized simplicity without offering an explanation?

So God must have come into existence after the universe came into existence.
or alternatively, the material universe is a perverted reflection of the spiritual universe (similar to platonic realism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platonic_realism)), and the spiritual universe is a constant contingent potency of god who is eternally omnipotent


You could say that God has been created by another God-like being, but this would be circular reasoning.
you could say that it would be reasonable to expect an eternal fire to have eternal smoke, eternal heat and eternal light.

In the same way there are many eternal potencies of god - one being the spiritual universe and another being the material universe

The only other explanation i can think of is that God must have evolved from 'lesser' beings.
If this is true then there is a race of Gods somewhere.
Alternatively, God is the sole survivor of the God-race. Which would mean Gods race is not immortal.

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So IF God exists he did not create the universe, he was mortal and most probably not the only one of his species.
It starts to sound like God may have been an 'alien'.

Either that or he doesnt exist at all.

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What are your thoughts on the ideas i presented above ?


science fiction

Edit: Crap, i screwed up the title...

thats ok

you're not god
;)