http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/graphics/godvsbush.gif

Ya know how many times that has been posted in this place?

Oh well, it doesn't matter. God hates Bush as I do! Finally, something He and I agree on!

haha really? mybad!

i havent seen it, but its good to know your imaginary friend is on our side

"any questions?"

yes, two

have you heard of a thing called coincidence?

also

if God is enough of a bastard to hurricane people just for voting for bush. wouldnt that be a good reason to send God a messege, telling him that he should go die?

"any questions?"

yes, two

have you heard of a thing called coincidence?

also

if God is enough of a bastard to hurricane people just for voting for bush. wouldnt that be a good reason to send God a messege, telling him that he should go die?

Not a good reason if voting Bush would lead to the mass destruction of an entire planet. Eg 10000 people swept away to save an entire planet seems like good policy to me. In fact I remember God sweeping away an entire peoples by way of flood. I think probably telling Him He should go and die is a bad idea.
You just cant deal with God's sovreignty cos you have no faith.
As it says in Malachi "Walk humbly with your God" - I think there is probably an emphasis on the word 'humble' there!
My advice is to accept you are a prisoner and take the bread and water given you!

Why do people talk about God like they know him?

Why do people talk about God like they know him?

Lol - err maybe cos some do!

Well sure, Jim Jones ''knew'' god . . . and he said god told him to make that kool-aid and serve it to those men, women and children. That lady the other day in Texas, says she speaks to the same God Dubya does -- and that god told her to crush her childrens skulls. I'll bet the 9/11 hijackers believed even MORE firmly than LSD-boy that they were doing gods work. And on and on it goes, through the centuries endlessly.

Well sure, Jim Jones ''knew'' god . . . and he said god told him to make that kool-aid and serve it to those men, women and children. That lady the other day in Texas, says she speaks to the same God Dubya does -- and that god told her to crush her childrens skulls. I'll bet the 9/11 hijackers believed even MORE firmly than LSD-boy that they were doing gods work. And on and on it goes, through the centuries endlessly.

As I have said before ... don't yoke me to those people. You make a mistake!

The point is though, its dangrous to trust ANYBODY who claims to be in touch with God. If you think are you talking to a god . . . cool, keep it personal and private. Anybody who wants to impose what they think god is telling them on *anybody else* is no different from those people I mention.

So you if think that god whispers/roars/whatever in your ear and it gives you the right to make decisions that effect anybody else based on those whispers? Then you are different from those nutcases only in specifics, not in general motivation.

Gravity - m8 if you are going to surrender your will to me because of what I say then that's your choice not that I am even asking you to do anything let alone 'telling' you. Incidentally I dont remember telling anybody ever that they 'have' to do something!
You say it is dangerous to trust anyone who claims to know or 'be in touch' with God as you put it. What are you really scared of? If it is all a load of bunkem then you will just 'know' that and move on huh? Why do you feel that you must attack my personal faith? It does no real harm does it? I am not doing harm am I?

What am I ''scared'' of? Huh? Get over yourself! You think I'd embrace your particular mythology if I wasn't ''scared'' of it? So you then must be "scared of" Islam? Judaism? Buddhism? Hinduism? No? Why don't you believe in them?

I only bother quibbling with you about your particular supersition because I'm living in America, and we are teetering on the edge of becoming a theocracy. And THAT does scare the shit out of me. History shows that when religion starts calling the shots in a government - it ends in blood and tears. "Faith based services", public money being sent now to religious schools, new laws allowing businesses to hire and fire based on the employee's religious views --- there is little media coverage, but its slipping that way more and more.

I would fight for your right to believe anything you want, but I'll fight equally against the government spending one penny of my tax dollars to promote any specific religious views, or pass laws based on those views. If your ''personal faith'' is really ''personal'' - then why do you spout on about it here? If its really ''personal'' then how do we even know what it is you believe?

What am I ''scared'' of? Huh? Get over yourself! You think I'd embrace your particular mythology if I wasn't ''scared'' of it? So you then must be "scared of" Islam? Judaism? Buddhism? Hinduism? No? Why don't you believe in them?

I only bother quibbling with you about your particular supersition because I'm living in America, and we are teetering on the edge of becoming a theocracy. And THAT does scare the shit out of me. History shows that when religion starts calling the shots in a government - it ends in blood and tears. "Faith based services", public money being sent now to religious schools, new laws allowing businesses to hire and fire based on the employee's religious views --- there is little media coverage, but its slipping that way more and more.

I would fight for your right to believe anything you want, but I'll fight equally against the government spending one penny of my tax dollars to promote any specific religious views, or pass laws based on those views. If your ''personal faith'' is really ''personal'' - then why do you spout on about it here? If its really ''personal'' then how do we even know what it is you believe?

I hear you going on about 'Religion' being the cause of blood and tears and you see public money being spent on something that you fundamentally find tedious and useless.
Look, you and I share many many similiar views about 'religion' in a worldly sense. As for what I spout out on here, well thats my business as it is yours to spout out about what you want to.
I am not actually attacking your lack of belief am I? Neither am I attacking you personally for becoming a little irritated with me because I understand your irritation. It's not hard to figure it out. If I irritate you that much Gravity - hold a poll to get me banned.
I call all of this 'sword fighting' or 'debate' for want of a better word. I dont ask why people spout what they do, I just debate around it. I suggest you do the same.

LSD boy . . . I was actually discussing specific issues, not your right to spew them all you want here. Have a poll to get you banned? Are you that much on the defensive stud? Or is that what your narrow little worldview dictates should happen, we should move to get all the voices we disagree with or dislike shutup? Well, thats a good right winger view all right. *Silence Dissent* But . . . even though I disagree with you, the thought of trying to ban you NEVER EVEN OCCURRED to me, and its very telling and sad that you think in such a way.

Read that post you responded to again, and see if you can actually respond to the issues raised, not the messenger.

At most 14 counties that voted for Gore were spared (Palm Beach and St Lucie are iffy on this map).

On the other hand, at least 26 counties that voted for Bush were spared.

Looks to me that God voted for Bush (which is enough reason for me to vote for Kerry, since I believe that governments should be secular).

By the way, wouldn't it just have been easier for God to kill Bush?

"By the way, wouldn't it just have been easier for God to kill Bush?"

That's what the pretzel was about...

That's what the pretzel was about...
:D Good point!
Well, this thread (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?p=698079#post698079) reveals evidence that Bush is actually Satan.
Maybe that's why God can't kill him! :eek:

Well, if there was a god punishing for Florida, it would likely have little to do with which counties voted for whom - but rather the state of Florida disenfranchised enough black voters to ensure that the the Dems didn't win.

But I would think a god would not have to resort to such petty stuff as sending hurricanes, when a wave of an all-powerful hand could just set everything to perfection and happiness! ;)

But I would think a god would not have to resort to such petty stuff as sending hurricanes, when a wave of an all-powerful hand could just set everything to perfection and happiness! ;)

What about all the people who didnt want a relationship with God though? If He just made everything perfect, then that would include bending peoples will's against their wills because for everything to be perfect we would all have to give up what we want and serve others. In that of course we would be served as well so no one would lose out but I dont think God has any intention of forcing you to give up yourself. Well not until you die anyway muhahahaha!
God rules! The end!

Huh? So nothing the god you believe has done in counts as 'bending peoples wills'? Read the Bible again LSD boy, tell me - none of those events count as 'bending peoples wills'? Seems like you haven't thought about that one very much!

If you are too much of a moron to think of any, I'll paste you a few hundred examples here.

Next, the Sea is going to turn blood red and it will start raining cats and dogs (literally). Finally, every firstborn of those with Bush 04 sticker and banner ....

Huh? So nothing the god you believe has done in counts as 'bending peoples wills'? Read the Bible again LSD boy, tell me - none of those events count as 'bending peoples wills'? Seems like you haven't thought about that one very much!

If you are too much of a moron to think of any, I'll paste you a few hundred examples here.

Oh no! Not the dreaded Word of God Brer Fox!

Lay it on me stud!

Huh? Sooooo . . . . in the entire Babble, excuse me *Bible*, old and new testaments. You don't think there are any examples of Gawwwwwd manipulating peoples circumstances, bending their will?

WTF are you talking about?!

Huh? Sooooo . . . . in the entire Babble, excuse me *Bible*, old and new testaments. You don't think there are any examples of Gawwwwwd manipulating peoples circumstances, bending their will?

WTF are you talking about?!

I am saying lay it on me! Provide me with examples where God has changed an unbeliever into a believer where that man's own free will was not involved!

thanks

c20

Ohhhhh, now look how LSD boy starts to suddenly have a very *specific* set of critera for proof! Heh! :)

We were talking about your ''loving'' god manipulating peoples circumstances, bending their will. If you think that plagues, floods, pestilence, and various other horrors are not ways of bending peoples will - then WTF is wrong with you?

When you torture somebody, you are not bending their will? Do we really have to get into tons of Old Testament examples of ''god'' imposing horror on people? If so, then I KNOW you've not read the book(s). And, as you surely must realize the Bibles are full of examples of God doing unpleasant things to people - - - - - - - - - - - and this then leaves only two choices:


God was doing it just for fun and sadistic pleasure, or God was wanting them to change somehing . . . i.e. BENDING THEIR WILL.

Duh.

Ohhhhh, now look how LSD boy starts to suddenly have a very *specific* set of critera for proof! Heh! :)

We were talking about your ''loving'' god manipulating peoples circumstances, bending their will. If you think that plagues, floods, pestilence, and various other horrors are not ways of bending peoples will - then WTF is wrong with you?

When you torture somebody, you are not bending their will? Do we really have to get into tons of Old Testament examples of ''god'' imposing horror on people? If so, then I KNOW you've not read the book(s). And, as you surely must realize the Bibles are full of examples of God doing unpleasant things to people - - - - - - - - - - - and this then leaves only two choices:


God was doing it just for fun and sadistic pleasure, or God was wanting them to change somehing . . . i.e. BENDING THEIR WILL.

Duh.

Wait, this was in response to the challenge to God that He could just make everything perfect. I responded by saying ( in not so many words) that that 'instantaneous change' would require a man to be transformed against his will i.e. we would all have to become automatons giving up our right to be self-serving. This was the context of what I was saying and I know you to be intelligent enough to accept that!

I wasn't talking about "instantaneous change" - that was mentioned nowhere. We were talking about ''bending peoples will". Those were the exact words. And let me quote you "I know you to be intelligent enough to accept that" . . . . well, actually I don't know that. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

But hey, I know your entire worldview is staked on a pie-in-the-sky mentality. A ''*I* get something special and all the people I don't like get tortured for eternity by my loving god". So you'll rationalize this all however you can, your very sense of self is staked on it, so probably most of the rationalization is unconcious.

I understand. In fact, I'm sure you'll be like "you must not have been a REAL Christian" - but once upon a time I was a reborn evangalistic Christian. I traveled in europe for a year with a Christian performance group whos motto was "We spread the gospel of Jesus Christ through our music and our actions".

If I'd stopped reading, and thinking - I'd still be in that space. But this brain, and the books and information surrounding me kept me moving on.

Believe me, I know what its like to just KNOW that the Bible is true. Nobody can talk you out of it, and thats fine. Just don't promote people/politicians who would force your beLIEfs on us through laws, use of our tax dollars and etc.

I wasn't talking about "instantaneous change" - that was mentioned nowhere. We were talking about ''bending peoples will". Those were the exact words. And let me quote you "I know you to be intelligent enough to accept that" . . . . well, actually I don't know that. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

But hey, I know your entire worldview is staked on a pie-in-the-sky mentality. A ''*I* get something special and all the people I don't like get tortured for eternity by my loving god". So you'll rationalize this all however you can, your very sense of self is staked on it, so probably most of the rationalization is unconcious.

I understand. In fact, I'm sure you'll be like "you must not have been a REAL Christian" - but once upon a time I was a reborn evangalistic Christian. I traveled in europe for a year with a Christian performance group whos motto was "We spread the gospel of Jesus Christ through our music and our actions".

If I'd stopped reading, and thinking - I'd still be in that space. But this brain, and the books and information surrounding me kept me moving on.

Believe me, I know what its like to just KNOW that the Bible is true. Nobody can talk you out of it, and thats fine. Just don't promote people/politicians who would force your beLIEfs on us through laws, use of our tax dollars and etc.


So you wernt talking about instantaneous change here then ...


... when a wave of an all-powerful hand could just set everything to perfection and happiness!


Which is when I said "God does not bend peoples will's AGAINST their will's"

I have also never said that I think myself as special and I have never said that I hope that because I have been such a good believer that I hope my loving God will throw people in hell just to show who was right and who was wrong. Do you think I would 'gloat' if someone was to suffer in hell forever??? I tell you I would not! It would be an everlasting tragedy!
If it hadnt been for Jesus then I would be in hell too! It is nothing that I have done that I shall receive eternal life but rather it is through the grace of Our Lord Jesus Christ that I am saved.


Just don't promote people/politicians who would force your beLIEfs on us through laws, use of our tax dollars and etc.


Please find a single example where I have done this!

*Yawn* Annnnnnd, here were are back in cliche-ville. Only 1/3 of humanity are Christian, and are ALL of those who call themselves Christians going to heaven? No right, many belong to the wrong franchise of Christianity right? And of those who are in the ''right'' branch . . . many of them are not true, right? So - what do you think 4/5's of humanity are going to be tortured for eternity by your ''loving'' god. You believe in a sick system dude, you worship a sadist.

Please find a single example where I have done this!

So, you don't in fact support Dubya or other such folks in office? You don't support prayer in schools? If not, than good on ya'!

*Yawn* Annnnnnd, here were are back in cliche-ville. Only 1/3 of humanity are Christian, and are ALL of those who call themselves Christians going to heaven? No right, many belong to the wrong franchise of Christianity right? And of those who are in the ''right'' branch . . . many of them are not true, right? So - what do you think 4/5's of humanity are going to be tortured for eternity by your ''loving'' god. You believe in a sick system dude, you worship a sadist.


It's not my call pal! I have no idea who is going up or down! It's Jesus' call, not mine! I didnt earn the right to decide! I dont have any keys to either Heaven or Hell, Life or Death. How do you know whom Jesus will have mercy on and why? The bible is quite clear about those who will not enter life - murderers, meddlers, perverts etc etc but I am sure you would not want any of those to be around you forever now would you unless they repented of course in which case they would no longer be murderers, perverts, meddlers etc etc.
How can God be a sadist by wishing to keep murderers, perverts, meddlers etc the hell away from me???? How does that make him anything other than a loving caring Father?
I dont even believe in a system - systems are for the pharisees!
I am that I am by the grace of God through Jesus Christ Our Lord! Who is not able to say that and enter life? Who has been excluded?



So, you don't in fact support Dubya or other such folks in office? You don't support prayer in schools? If not, than good on ya'!

I am not interested in the world of politics at all!

Well ok, here - AGAIN - are more things the Bible is quite clear about:

Who You Should Kill

--Unruly or rebellious child. Deut 21:20-21
--Those who curse or hit their parents. Lev 20:9, Ex 21:15
--Worshipers of other gods. Deut 13:6-11
--psychics, witches. Lev 20:27, Deut 13:6-11,Ex 22:18.
--Those who do not believe in Jesus (parable). Luke 19:27.
--Those who work on the Sabbath. Ex 35:2 (Moses kills a gentile for this. Num 15:32-36.)
--Those who are accused by at least two people of wickedness. Deut 17:6.
--The children and babies of enemies. Num 31:17, Deut 20:13, Psalm 137:9, Lev 26:29.
--Adulterers. Lev 20:10.
--Homosexuals. Lev 20:13.
--A woman who is not a virgin when married. Deut 22:13-21.
--Those who are careless with murderous livestock. Exodus 21:29.


You worship a sadist.

Yes - This is the Law as Given to Moses (Except Luke which I will come to)

The law shows God's anger against sin.

In the old testament God gave a covenant to His people which was "Obey these laws or suffer the consequences" but the people continued not to do what is right and so Moses ensured that the punishments were exacted in accordance with God's will.

But as I have said before

All we are left with is God's anger and God's mercy and God's mercy is better than His anger.

Enter Jesus and New Testament and therefore New Covenant ...

Jesus says to the people about to exact God's punishment upon the adulteress (paraphrasing) "Ok folks which one of you has never even 'thought' about another person lustfully? Which one of you is God? Would the real God please stand up, please stand up. please stand up and throw the first stone"
Naturally they all looked a bit dumbfounded (they didnt like Eminem either ;) ) but they did 'see' what He was saying because no one threw a stone.
Had He not been around well, that woman would be covered in large pieces of rock and be dead!

Edit: Did Jesus say the woman had done nothing wrong though? No! He said to her "Go and do not sin again!"

Why would God want to show He is angry with the adulteress thorugh Moses? Well suppose I am the husband that has been cheated on. How much would I love God if He said "Oh just get over it! What's your problem eh sonny? She did nothing wrong"
I would not be able to forgive God for taking such a stance with me because I am sooooo hurt about my wife having cheated on me because I had loved her so completley. Trust me adultery hurts like a son of a bitch. I think I would rather be murdered which is over quicker!

The upshot is this ...

Jesus is God's mercy and God let us know of His approval of Jesus by giving Jesus the power to do the miracles that he did. People didnt believe Jesus on His own testimony but rather through the evidence of the miracles that He did.

As for the parable in Luke - parables are just that - they are clever explainations of concepts and ideas - easy ways to describe rights and wrongs, hates and loves, so that everyone may agree with the morality in them independant of their intelligence. The smallest child can understand the meanings behind the clever little stories.
Children dont question why the wicked witch in the Wizard of Oz has to die a miserable fading death - no - they are glad that she is melting!

Please find a single sadistic 'action' of Jesus Christ in the New Testament.

Thanks

c20

Wow, even more cliche-speak. Anything YOU quote from the Bible stands as you interpret, any usage you disagree with you rationalize away.

On that subject, read (don't be lazy and skim) this:

One thing I've often wondered about is why the Christian bible should need a lawyerly defence, because surely a work written either directly by God, dictated by Him or inspired by Him would be clearly distinct from the works of fallen, sinful mortals. Surely He would have done a much better job of it if He was even very indirectly involved.

Why did God need a scribe? He could have done it Himself and left not even a shadow of doubt they are His works. By using fallible, bungling humans God guaranteed the introduction of error.

If Christians want others to "see the light" they should be able to prove conclusively that the Bible is so unusual it could not have been written by humans, it only could have been written by the creator of the universe.

If the bible is truly the word of God it couldn't possible matter about contexor interpretation because each verse would be of such crystal clear clarity that no ambiguity would be possible ~ it would not be possible to mistake it
for anything other than the "Word of God".

If the verses in the Book were truly of God's creation it would be used as a shining symbol of hope for the poor, the downtroddon and the disenfranchised and not as a blunt instument used as a bludgeon to promise eternal hellfire and
damnation.

If the words contained in the bible were a true reflection of God they would act as a true binding force because there could be no room for doubt or interpretional differencies. The words would promote unity, not division. They would promote peace not war, friendship not violence.

The God invented by the Christians is usually presented as an all-powerful super-natural entity, existing both inside and outside of time and space but if He meant His words to be understood and followed by all people of all nations for all times, the message would stand apart and by totally comprehensible. It would not require rationalization to be piled upon rationalizion to explain it.

Anyone, learned or unlearned, would be able to see that bible gives information that only the creator of the universe could have known during the time the Bible was written and it would have been presented with such skill, clarity and an accuracy so extraordinary that only the creator of the universe could have been responsible.

If the omni- everything Christian God does exist then the bible is presenting Him in a disrespectful or even blasphemous manner because it shows Him as a cross between an inconsiderate parochial potentate playing favourites, and a petulant child, always ready to stomp on it's playthings, inconsistent, bungling, partial and forgetful, quite different qualities than Christians like to attribute to Him.

Also, if the horror/torture/genocide done by ''god'' in the Old Testament doesn't count - does that mean none of it counts? Or do you just PICK which are valid?

And then . . . there is this:

-- All the OT laws still apply in the NT. Matt 5:17-19

at first this thread was a political-religious comedic oddity, now I can move it to its rightful home.

Wow, even more cliche-speak. Anything YOU quote from the Bible stands as you interpret, any usage you disagree with you rationalize away.

On that subject, read (don't be lazy and skim) this:



Also, if the horror/torture/genocide done by ''god'' in the Old Testament doesn't count - does that mean none of it counts? Or do you just PICK which are valid?

And then . . . there is this:

-- All the OT laws still apply in the NT. Matt 5:17-19

But the Word of God does stand on it's own! Well it does for me and I am just a man like you! As for 'couldn't God have done a better job of it' - well all I can say is that you completley 'reject' the work of Jesus Christ. There is God, doing it right under your nose, you read about it, you hear the message but you reject the message. What do you want? I tell you the truth, Jesus could come right here on the internet and tell you He loves you and that you may enter life eternal with Him and still you would reject it!
As for the OT laws still apply in the new testament - well of course they do! The laws are just and are right!

Ill explain the law thing in context of the new testament promise ...

A man loves his wife. He loves her completely. He works hard to ensure that they have enough food to eat and that their children are fed. He gives to the poor and is always prepared to help someone in need whether they be friend or stranger.
One day on his way home from work he meets a man who is down on his luck. The stranger has just lost his wife and is obviously having a nervous breakdown. The stranger is crying on a park bench. The man sits next to him struck by the stranger's pain and asks him if there is anything he can do to help him.
The stranger replies "The loneliness is too much to bear, I have lost my wife, she has died unexpectedly and now my home does not feel like my home, on top of this I have now lost my job because I just cannot cope"
The man takes pity on him and offers a room in his own house until the man is ready to face the world again. He offers to arrange some counselling and promises that the man is most welcome in his house. He even offers to help find him a job"
The stranger having no where else to go, agrees to the man's kind offer and they both set off to the man's house.
The man's wife is a little displeased with her husband's generousity because she just wants a quiet life but concedes to her husband nonetheless.
The wife does not work because she stays at home to care for their 2 very young children. The stranger open's up to the wife whilst the husband is away at work and pours out all his troubles.
The wife listens and listens and sees that the stranger just desperately needs to be loved. She finds herself falling in love with him. Her husband is so self assured she feels that the stranger is even more worthy of her love than her own husbands. In a moment of weakness she takes the stranger by the hand and leads him to the bedroom.
The stranger who feels so down on his lot says "But what about your husband?"
The wife says "Oh he is ok, he doesnt worry about anything. Come on, it is you who needs to be loved, come with me!"
So they sleep together and keep it a secret from the husband.
The husband comes home from work one day full of joy because he has won a promotion at work. His wife opens the door to him and he says "Come on darling, get your glad rags on, daddy is taking us all out to dinner"
The wife racked by guilt says "I really cannot share your joy. I need you to leave right away. Please take your things and go!"
The man begs his wife not to do this to him but she stands firm and tells him he must leave. He asks for a reason but she gives none.
After some time a messenger comes to the husband and tells him that his wife is sleeping with the stranger and now the stranger wears his clothes and the stranger bounces his babies on his knee.
The husband cannot believe his ears and is furious. He wishes both his wife and that stranger dead for what they have done to him! He cries out to God at the injustice of it all!
Now what should God say to that husband? If God said "Oh I dont know what you are getting angry about. Why dont you stop moaning and accept your lot?" how could that husband ever feel that God understood his pain and suffering. Now if God said "Your wife has behaved wickedly towards you her husband because she has forgotten who she made a promise to in marraige. That woman should be punished for what she has done to you." - then the man would know that God empathises with him and the man would expect justice to take place."
God's anger is righteous and it is God's anger that justifies men. The law therefore is good and should never be done away with.
Now what of the wife? She 'has' forgotten her husband whom she married under oath and this is not acceptable to a loving God. She has a chance to repent. She could turn her heart now to her husband who she knows is broken hearted and beg him to forgive her. The husband loves his wife therefore he will listen to her and will understand why she fell prey to temptation given all the circumstances. It does not matter how much that stanger begs though - the husband will not permit him in his house any longer!
If the wife repented she would see God's mercy through her husband and the husband would be blessed by God because mercy is better than anger.
What if the wife never repented? Well God's anger would sit in judgement against her until she died and the husband would be justified in his own anger at what had been done to him.
The Law is good and will always be!

Praise be to God through Our Lord Jesus Christ.

at first this thread was a political-religious comedic oddity, now I can move it to its rightful home.

Yep, well the sad and sick truth, in which may lay the seeds of the downfall of the American Dream, is that politics and religion in the USA are becoming intertwined subjects more than ever before in this nation.

Oh, the American Dream is antiquated, anyhow.

I'd like to establish a few assumptions, before entering into a discussion, LSD.
First, can a man rightfully judge and prosecute him? Is the judicial system just and right, in theory?

If you answer yes to any of this, proceed to the next question.

Can a man be held accountable for the actions of his leaders? Can he be held accountable for following his leaders' poor decisions through?

I'd like to know what your beliefs on these are before I construct some parables.
And please, simple yes and no answers or brief explanations. Let's not drag to much stuff into this without first agreeing on some premises.

I'd like to establish a few assumptions, before entering into a discussion, LSD.
First, can a man rightfully judge and prosecute him? Is the judicial system just and right, in theory?


Ok bear with me because I'm not understanding you first off. When you say can a man rightfully judge and prosecute him. Who are you talking about? Who is 'him' and what has he done?
When you say is the judicial system just and right in theory - who's judicial system are you talking about?

Thanks

c20

The judicial system: a system constructed to mete justice to those who have commited an infraction against the societies accepted rules. Let's use ours as an example.

If you get caught stealing (and it's not about feeinding your starving family), is it right for a judge, a jury and a lawyer (all humans) prosecute you? Is right for them to judge you?

The judicial system: a system constructed to mete justice to those who have commited an infraction against the societies accepted rules. Let's use ours as an example.

If you get caught stealing (and it's not about feeinding your starving family), is it right for a judge, a jury and a lawyer (all humans) prosecute you? Is right for them to judge you?

The judge is not prosecuting - he is residing over proceedings, a jury is there to provide an impartial ear to come to a verdict of not guilty or guilty depending on the evidence and the lawyer is there to represent the interests of his client. The only person prosecuting is the agrieved party. If they ( the agrieved) catches you stealing they have a duty to report you so that you may be brought to trial. The actual punishment meted out will be set by the judge having heard all the evidence and only then if 12 people agree that you should have known better than to steal.
I see nothing wrong in this system if it is carried out on a fair basis.

Alright, so you would agree then that man may judge men, and it is not soley God's job to judge?

Actually the agrieved party here - the prosecution, is seeking 'damages' or 'loss of earnings' , they are not seeking to judge the character of the thief. The thiefs character is not being prosecuted. Far from seeking to 'condemn' the thief, the law tries to get the thief to see the error of his ways by issuing a fitting punishment in the hope that He will 'repent' or 'be reformed' - the prosecution just wants their financial loss to be compensated.
It is non-personal - do you see?

Eh? There is still a judgement, and still punishment.
The thief must still stand trial, whether his character is judged (which does in fact occur during trials) was not my question. My question is: is it ok for this man to be judged?
The reason for the prosecutor prosecuting is monetary and propriety– the reason he is hired may be personal.
But we digress.
One more time:
Is the justice system correct in judging man?

LSD,

Please just pander him with a yes/no answer.

Eh? There is still a judgement, and still punishment.
The thief must still stand trial, whether his character is judged (which does in fact occur during trials) was not my question. My question is: is it ok for this man to be judged?
The reason for the prosecutor prosecuting is monetary and propriety– the reason he is hired may be personal.
But we digress.
One more time:
Is the justice system correct in judging man?

Yes. The justice system is correct in judging man after all it is their job to do so.
If anyone in the justice system feels they are a hypocrite however, then they should probably resign from their job.

... I forgot where I was going with this.

Very well.

Carry on.

Roman: I forgot where I was going with this.
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M*W: The judicial system of our government is not as fair as it would seem. It depends on who you know not what you know. Sometimes, the judicial system is very biased toward certain individuals. The biggest problem I see with the US judicial system is the number of drug-related offenses that are on the dockets. In fact, drug-related convictions are running amok in our legal system. These individuals who use, abuse and sell recreational drugs are clogging up the 'system.' Lawyers, at least in my town, view these convictions as a waste of time and not really that 'bad' in the greater scheme of things. The drug business is rampant in Texas, and from what I've learned, in the remotest locations of Appalachia, too. Jail time doesn't rehabilitate these individuals -- it just teaches the offenders how to avoid prosecution. If drugs such as marijuana and other subtances were not considered a felony, this would clear our dockets for the real murderers, child molesters, and the various and sundry white collar criminals. These people need rehabilitation, not incarceration. Incarceration only prolongs the problem.

I don't mean to imply that I agree with this rampant drug abuse, I would prefer to see some real rehabilitation, but that would need to be chosen by the offender -- not the court. Forced rehabilitation never works.