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M*W: God is not an authority over humankind. Since humans have not been able to provide evidence pro or con on the existence of such a god, then it would be only up to god itself to make it clear who or what it is. Since that hasn't happened, either, humans cannot trust each other to identify their god, and god cannot be trusted to identify itself. All the more reason to believe god doesn't exist.

The existence of god(s) cannot be proven or disproven. Therefore, there is no reason to believe they exist.

Since When does the God of any religion say they will make it obvious to humans of their existence??

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M*W: God is not an authority over humankind. Since humans have not been able to provide evidence pro or con on the existence of such a god, then it would be only up to god itself to make it clear who or what it is. Since that hasn't happened, either, humans cannot trust each other to identify their god, and god cannot be trusted to identify itself. All the more reason to believe god doesn't exist.

I think God is there for anyone if you really go looking. Lots of people will tell you it's not something easily put into words, let alone proved.

God is like a sage on a mountain top - who's 'authority' is sought voluntarily, because it is wisdom. It should free us, not oppress us. No-one has the pure vision, we have to use our own discernment.

I don't believe in God, but a believer would tell you, MW, that God does not show himself to allow humans free choice. If he came out and said heya sup ya'll? He wouldn't be a god, he'd be a dictator. People wouldn't act good because it's the right thing to do, but because they'd fear his retribution. faith is characterized by lack of proof.

A better means of disproving God's existence is as follows: The Christian God is supposedly COMPLETELY good, omnipotent, omnipresent, and all-knowing. If he is completely good, knows of the suffering on earth, and has the power to stop it, why doesn't he? A COMPLETELY good being couldn't possibly tolerate what goes on down here. Why did he even create humankind, if he knew they would disregard his orders, and commit unspeakable acts against each other? The only possible god would either be ignorant, weak, or unspeakably evil. Christians would say that his lack of action is part of a higher plan; that he is testing us. If this plan involves the deaths of millions of jewish kids, and he genocide in sudan (among other things), I want no part in it.

BTW, MW, even for a non-believer, I find your reasoning completely absurd.

God is not an authority over humankind.

Medicine Woman, God/Allah or "whatever" might just well be making you write those very words ....how are you to know? He might be directing every single thing that happens with and in everyone and everything.

The problem with God/Allah/etc is that you nor anyone knows ...and to say anything about him/it is nothing but idle speculation.

All the more reason to believe god doesn't exist.

Do you believe in love? If so, can you prove that it exists? Or doesn't exist?

Baron Max

I say....

medicinewoman does not have authority over humankind.

therefore, medicinewoman does not exist.

oh... and she cant be trusted... she as much as said so.

-MT

I don't believe in God, but a believer would tell you, MW, that God does not show himself to allow humans free choice. If he came out and said heya sup ya'll? He wouldn't be a god, he'd be a dictator. People wouldn't act good because it's the right thing to do, but because they'd fear his retribution. faith is characterized by lack of proof.

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M*W: How does god not showing himself allow humans "free choice?" It would be a "free choice" if god would show himself, and then let us decide. That's "free choice." As it stands now, you either believe in god on "faith," or you're agnostic because you don't know, or you're an atheist because you don't "believe." In order to have "free choice," you have to know what your options are.

People who believe in an unseen god, non-demonstrable deity, believe out of fear, and not out of reality.

IF GOD showed himself... even you.. would bow down.. out of fear.

and thats no way to treat ones own children.

-MT

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M*W: How does god not showing himself allow humans "free choice?" It would be a "free choice" if god would show himself, and then let us decide. That's "free choice." As it stands now, you either believe in god on "faith," or you're agnostic because you don't know, or you're an atheist because you don't "believe." In order to have "free choice," you have to know what your options are.

People who believe in an unseen god, non-demonstrable deity, believe out of fear, and not out of reality.

The point is that it wouldn't be a decision if God made it clear that He exists. Everyone would bend to his will because they KNOW. It would be a clear-cut choice between living in paradise or a fiery pit for all of eternity, and it is pretty doubtful that anyone would choose the latter.

However I would think the coming of Jesus would completely defeat that point, considering He is God incarnate. The whole of Israel would have had a pretty clear conception of God's reality; the whole earth shook as a testament to this.


To steal a line from the wonderful Jesus Christ Superstar..


"If He'd come today, He could have reached the whole nation! Israel in 4BC had no mass communication."



So, kids... why the fuck is He leaving us in the dark? Where are our miracles, our testaments to the supernatural?

A better means of disproving God's existence is as follows: The Christian God is supposedly COMPLETELY good, omnipotent, omnipresent, and all-knowing. If he is completely good, knows of the suffering on earth, and has the power to stop it, why doesn't he? A COMPLETELY good being couldn't possibly tolerate what goes on down here. Why did he even create humankind, if he knew they would disregard his orders, and commit unspeakable acts against each other? The only possible god would either be ignorant, weak, or unspeakably evil. Christians would say that his lack of action is part of a higher plan; that he is testing us. If this plan involves the deaths of millions of jewish kids, and he genocide in sudan (among other things), I want no part in it.
So you sit in judgement of God. Because he does not wipe your nose and protect you from all the dangers the world poses, he is either evil or nonexistant.

Is it not possible that God, an eternal being, thinks more long term than you? People suffer on this earth. People die. But all suffering is temporary, no matter how terrible. Small consolation if you or someone you love if the one suffering, I know.

What would you have God do? Create a world of perfect safety and comfort? Provide for our every need and break up any fights that occur? Or perhaps he should have created a world of unthinking robots who would always obey his commands?

We are God's children. He wants us to grow up. To be strong. When a parent gives his children everything they want, they become spoiled brats. Weak and without character.

We were given free will so that we could choose to be good, or evil. We could choose to commit genocide, or to feed the poor. What is the point of doing the right thing, if it's not by choice? To truly be good, one must be capable of being evil.

What would you have God do? Create a world of perfect safety and comfort? Provide for our every need and break up any fights that occur? Or perhaps he should have created a world of unthinking robots who would always obey his commands.

Or, He could have not created anything at all.

Apparently the great omnipotent one was a wittle wonely and felt the need to create various creatures that are all racing to their demise; an eternity of either pain or pleasure(of course, He already knows where we're all going).

Yes, I'd rather God not have created anything. Unfortunately there is creation, and I may spend an eternity in hell for falling prey to the logic that He constructed.

Medicine Woman

M*W: God is not an authority over humankind.
This is just like saying "the president has no authority over the americans - it is th epolice force" - in other words you may say god does not have authority, but the forces of nature definitely do - your statement doesn't disqualify god's authority since there are numerous scriptural quotes that evidence nature as being under the influence of god


Since humans have not been able to provide evidence pro or con on the existence of such a god, then it would be only up to god itself to make it clear who or what it is.
lol - on the contrary god doesn't have such a delicate ego that he is worried whether people think he is real or not


Since that hasn't happened, either, humans cannot trust each other to identify their god, and god cannot be trusted to identify itself. All the more reason to believe god doesn't exist.
Either that or because of an absence of proper knowledge people get hitched on the details

lol - on the contrary god doesn't have such a delicate ego that he is worried whether people think he is real or not

Why send non-believers to hell then?

Why send non-believers to hell then?

to make them happy of course
ananado maya bhyasat - the living entity is pleasure seeking my constituition

The real question is why would a living entity want to go to hell to be happy

I'm still thinking that god created all of this just so he could watch us flounder around and fight and kill each other .....like a giant video game!!

Geez, he must laugh his ass off every day of the year, huh? ...LOL!

Baron Max

Baron Max - that makes total sense! The universe is just a game of Pac-Man!

We are, of course, Pac Man (or Ms. Pac Man), eating away at the bits that we seek, all the while the four ghosts... er, horsemen, rush to destroy us. However, if we swallow the blinking light that we can choose by free will, then we have a chance to rise above the evil powers of the evil ones. IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW!

:m: :o :confused:

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M*W: God is not an authority over humankind. Since humans have not been able to provide evidence pro or con on the existence of such a god, then it would be only up to god itself to make it clear who or what it is. Since that hasn't happened, either, humans cannot trust each other to identify their god, and god cannot be trusted to identify itself. All the more reason to believe god doesn't exist.God has authority over mankind, and it is not up to us to try to prove His existance.

Because God has authority over us, He doesn't have to surrender to our arguments of why we should or shouldn't believe.

It is we that have to surrender, so that we approach Him. In our humble heart towards what we feel is right.

Madan, what you say makes no sense. Why did he create us, knowing we cause each other to suffer? Allowing us free choice is nice and all, but an omnipotent, completely good being could not, WOULD not allow for innocents to suffer as they do on earth. And if, as you say, this is all part of a greater plan, then that plan sickens me. I heard some idiot christian quote Batman to support the theory of god once. "why do we fall? So we can learn to pick ourselves up again." He said that god lets his children suffer so that they might learn; a parent can't always shelter his child, or it won't learn. A parent, however, doesn't let his kids beat the fuck outta other kids to let them LEARN. If god creates each and every one of us, and he knows everything, then he was well aware while creating Hitler that his creation would be responsible for millions of deaths. Why did he make him then? To test us? Please. That brings up something else- fate. If god knows everything, that suggests that everything is predetermined, in which case e have no free chouce at all, and are pawns in his sick little game of chess. You know what? I think I'm getting to like this guy.

DON'T use peoples names Chiraque

huh?

manda

why not? is it bad? i was answering his comment.

yes, refer to people by their nicknames

what's manda's nickname?

And by the way, i've noticed u mostly disagree with me. What u think of what I wrote up there?

its not manda its madanthonywayne

no, i agree with the logic, except like medicine woman i dont believe in god

.... thats long

its not manda its madanthonywayne
oh right he meant madan

sorry chiraque, my bad

ah. k taken care of.

Allowing us free choice is nice and all, but an omnipotent, completely good being could not, WOULD not allow for innocents to suffer as they do on earth.
There can not be free will without suffering. Period. I'd rather live in a world that allows evil, then live as a mindless robot preprogrammed to do only good.

I heard some idiot christian quote Batman to support the theory of god once. "why do we fall? So we can learn to pick ourselves up again."
That was a surprisingly good movie! And I like that quote, even if it was said by Batman.
He said that god lets his children suffer so that they might learn; a parent can't always shelter his child, or it won't learn. A parent, however, doesn't let his kids beat the fuck outta other kids to let them LEARN.
God's concern is with our immortal souls. Beating the fuck out of each other may be, to him, the equivalent of a skinned knee.
If god creates each and every one of us, and he knows everything, then he was well aware while creating Hitler that his creation would be responsible for millions of deaths. Why did he make him then? To test us? Please. That brings up something else- fate. If god knows everything, that suggests that everything is predetermined, in which case e have no free chouce at all, and are pawns in his sick little game of chess. You know what? I think I'm getting to like this guy.
I detest the idea of predestination. If everything is predetermined, then it would be unjust to punish sinners. Life would be pointless.

Einstein said that God doesn't play dice with the universe. I think, conversely, that God created the universe because he likes to play dice. Unpredictability is built into the universe at a fundamental level. Look at quantum mechanics. I believe God purposely created the universe in this way so he wouldn't be able to know everything in advance. This way we do, in fact, have free will. This way God can, perhaps, even be surprised now and then. Otherwise, I think he'd get bored.

There can not be free will without suffering.

Why not?

Baron Max

well,in this i have seen people being biest.the religous people say "why does God have to if he rules over us?" and the non-religous people say "why doesnt he show a sign or do anything to help us".see,for me i belive in him slightly.i'm not saying im right but hear me out;everyone knows that humans are way too complex.far beyond mutation and/or evolution.so in order for us to be this way something had to create us(hince a some sort of "God" or higher power).and i've seen people on this say "lifes a test,he's testing us".i think it's human's somewhat "purpose" to be learning new things from enteraction with new things and new people and from things you do right and wrong.but no,i dont think god does anything for us.i just think that the "thing"that created us wants us to figure things out for ourself without it's help.

Why not?

Baron Max

If you didn't have the opportunity to make mistakes, how would your will be free?

No. Baron Max was asking, "why not" to madanthonywayne's statement: "There can not be free will without suffering. Period."

No. Baron Max was asking, "why not" to madanthonywayne's statement: "There can not be free will without suffering. Period."
sorry - I see - then I am also possessed of the same curiousity

Why not?
Baron Max
If you are free to choose, some choices will be bad. Furthermore, some will be pure evil {Hitler, Osama}. As a consequence of these poor choices, there will be suffering. But if we are truly free, we must bear the consequences of our poor choices. As the saying goes, freedom isn't free.

that is so true,and it's amazing how y'all get on this topic from the topic of God

madan:

There can not be free will without suffering. Period.

By logically following the premises of Christian dogma, there is no free will. Period.

madan:
By logically following the premises of Christian dogma, there is no free will. Period.
Untrue. I believe it's only the Calvinists who believe in predetermination. Anyway, I sure as hell don't.

IF GOD showed himself... even you.. would bow down.. out of fear.

and thats no way to treat ones own children.

-MT


Jesus is god isn't he? and he showed up to people didn't he? lol

Haven't you read the Bible yet? The only true book for humans? Where there are no mistakes and it is written by a Holy Spirit

Madan, your God's existence is based on the premise that he knows everything and is completely good. Think of that... He KNOWS EVERYTHING. He CAN NEVER be surprised. He knew adam and eve would betray him. He knew the creatures he created would cause undue suffering to each other. Why did a completely good being allow this. If he is playing chess, as you say, then he's just a bastard. "Hmmmm... I'm gona make a guy who tends towards sadism and the megalomaniacal, and see how he affects the world around him. Woohoo... Whoa, that must have been painful... OOOOOOO... tood bad for those jews... Major props to Hitler and Saddam for creativity."

No surprises for god since there are basically only two options - and each option is predictable
:D

Madan, your God's existence is based on the premise that he knows everything and is completely good. Think of that... He KNOWS EVERYTHING. He CAN NEVER be surprised. He knew adam and eve would betray him. He knew the creatures he created would cause undue suffering to each other. Why did a completely good being allow this. If he is playing chess, as you say, then he's just a bastard. "Hmmmm... I'm gona make a guy who tends towards sadism and the megalomaniacal, and see how he affects the world around him. Woohoo... Whoa, that must have been painful... OOOOOOO... tood bad for those jews... Major props to Hitler and Saddam for creativity."
I believe God built unpredictability into the universe at a fundamental level. The more we learn about physics, the more we realize the universe is a crazy, unpredictable place at the subatomic level.

It is this unpredictability which gives us free will. I do not believe God knows everything. Or rather, he knows everything that is, but doesn't know exactly what will be. But I'm sure he can make some pretty good guesses given his complete knowledge of all that exists.

He made universe in balance, a dynamic equilibrium system. Everything has opposites, so that makes everything has their own meanings.
Asking for all loving God that just letting only good to happen without evil, is denying of balance concept. Love has no meaning if there is no evil. He offers heaven for loving people, but will have no meaning if there is no hell.

Omniscience; He knows everything; based on the selection people choose, because he created the path for everyone to choose. He makes random system, and fills it with souls which possess will to do/choose anything one wish to do/choose. He provides the effects of any actions / causes. Is human's fate predetermined? yes and no. The selection is predetermined, but where to go is human's free choice.

He has the authority upon the system of this dynamic equilibrium. Mankind live in this system.