God does not exist.

Give me any reason you can to suggest otherwise.

:eek:

------------------
God does not exist.

I totally agree.

But you might receive some objections to your claim unless you can prove it or show good reason. Many will say that it is not possible to prove that something doesn't exist since we are not yet capable of searching every corner of the universe.

You are in danger of appearing as irrational as those theists who claim that a god does exist but also cannot prove their claim.

The onus of proof usually lies with the person making the claim. So in this case, since you have made a claim, with which I do agree, it would behove you to state why you think your claim is true.

BTW welcome to the debate.

Have fun
Cris

I recall once, seeing the Christian teeny-bopper performer Carman trying to make a point about God, using a red rubber ball.

Once we admit that "God" is a human-invented word, it can be whatever we define it. If I see "God" in a red rubber ball; it's a little tougher to declare that the red rubber ball isn't there.

But, failing that silly version of logic, I wouldn't presume to try. ;)

I'll second Cris on the onus of proof, though. And another second on the Welcome to Exosci.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

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No, don't seek control, and the milk of heaven will flow. Why would you want to keep it from anyone? (Floater)

tiassa,

At least we can see, feel, and hear (when bounced), a red rubber ball. So if a physical manifestation of a god is preposterous then consider the alternative claims: Invisible (ah ha not red then?), immaterial (not rubber either), silent (no bouncing allowed, definitely no fun).

Now compare that definition to 'nothingness', which is also invisible, immaterial, and silent.

Gosh what a coincidence, perhaps god equals nothing.

So now I guess we must decide to what extent does nothing exist.

Have fun
Cris

So now I guess we must decide to what extent does nothing exist.

It seems to me that Judaism, in its later Qabalist form at least, had no problem with this.

But, as relates Christianity proper ... isn't that the rhetorical confoundment that got the philosophy into this sad situation in the first place?

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

------------------
No, don't seek control, and the milk of heaven will flow. Why would you want to keep it from anyone? (Floater)

I agree with Cris that you gotta show proof of him not existing, but since there is no possible way to prove that he does/doesn't exist why do many people belive in him? Because we have faith, faith being that you believe in something that cannot be proven.
Now you COULD say that you have faith that God doesn't exist, but then again that means God is nothing, not anything. There is no way of proving whether or not God exists (as of yet, if ever we can.)
So you either have faith in God, or you accept that other people do believe in God.
Prove me wrong if you can. =)

------------------
What is Time?

RedCat,

I'm secretly hoping that LargeToad might have a new novel idea to show that gods do not exist. But I have doubts.

But yes it is possible to show that a god does not exist. The logic involves showing that a god cannot exist. Once that is achieved then non-existence must follow.

One needs to show a paradox of the form: A vehicle that can travel both north and south at the same time. Such an enity cannot exist.

The problem lies with the definition of the god in question. The temptation for the claimant will be that he will heap loads of super superlatives onto his definition, and therin lies the defeat. Such super properties can be mutually exclusive and hence the defintion can result in a paradox -an impossibility.

My favorite is the Christian god and its commonly accepted property of omniscience. Christians also claim that their god has created lfeforms that have free will. Omniscience and free will are mutually exclusive. Perfect knowledge of all future events is identical to pre-determination, i.e. the opposite of free will. This paradox effectively means that the Christian god as defined cannot exist and therefore does not exist.

But other gods might be defined differently and so each much be considered based on the claims made for it.

Have fun.
Cris




[This message has been edited by Cris (edited February 09, 2001).]

Because we have faith, faith being that you believe in something that cannot be proven.


And why would you want to go and have a silly thing like that?

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I am; therefore I think.

boris,
ok, well...why not believe in something if it doesn't hurt you to believe in it, however if it exist it could hurt you not to? Though I guess that wouldn't really be believing in it, would it. Oh well thats what I get for having gone to a Christian school for 8 years. One of my teachers had said if you don't believe in God and there is a hell then it would be bad, if there isn't a God and there is no hell its fine (therefore you have a 50-50 chance.) however if there is a God and a hell and you believe in God, he can save you, if you believe in God and there is no hell, everything is fine (therefore a 100% chance.) Just a bit of useless knowlage about me. =)
Anyhow can we prove we have a purpose in life, can we prove that our life is not pre-determined, can we prove we arn't controlled be an omnipotent power, can we prove that time travel can or can't be achieved, can we prove that there won't be a masiah <sp?>?
NO, we have faith that we have a purpose, that our life isn't pre-determined, that time travel does exist, and that there will be a masiah<sp?> (depending on ones beliefs of course.)
Hope I am not mistaken too much this time.

------------------
What is Time?

[This message has been edited by RedCat (edited February 09, 2001).]

RedCat,

What can I say... prepare to be gutted, minced, skewered and roasted on a slow fire ;)

First of all, the question of hurt/no hurt. I should think that any mindset that impedes your understanding or exploration of the universe is hurtful. Furthermore, any conviction which makes you susceptible to arbitrary authority and therefore makes a convenient marionette out of you, is hurtful. Then, any belief that forces you into a constant struggle to reconcile paradoxes and contradictions is hurtful because it drains your time and energy on specious things. And of course, I'd say any belief that you are not in full control of your own life, but must instead depend on some mythical helper -- is fundamentally hurtful. This is not to forget all the damage that has been historically caused by the religious mob. Ok, I could keep going on this topic for quite some time, but we have to move on...

The argument that you can't go wrong believing in God...ridiculous. What of the possibility that Spooky (a hypothetical entity) is the real god, and would condemn you to eternal torture if you believe in a god other than Spooky (that includes Yahweh.) Of course, you have to keep in mind the odd chance that Smoky (another hypothetical entity) would punish you unbelievably if you have faith in any god whatsoever. So much for playing it safe, eh? Considering the number of existing religions in the world (not even mentioning all the dead religions, as well as the yet-unborn ones), it is just a little odd that you choose to fear (or have faith in) the Christian god any more than the umptillion other gods imaginable and unimaginable. Considering this reality, you must agree that it is absolutely impossible for an unbiased person to prefer one religion over any other (in fact, I dare claim an unbiased person would readily observe that all religions are mere cultural artifacts.) So, since you made a choice, you have to consider the source of your bias. Your "faith" is only as well-founded and justified as the odd chance that you be indoctrinated with one religion as opposed to another.

P.S.> A guy from India told me today (I don't know if it's actually true or not) that on the Indian continent alone there are currently 3,000,000 worshipped gods. Holy cow! :D

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I am; therefore I think.

[This message has been edited by Boris (edited February 09, 2001).]

RedCat,

A little bit more on hurt.

Religion represents a huge financial and work burden on mankind. It's not just a matter of religious believers wasting their money on church buildings; think of all the time and effort spent building churches, praying, and so on. Imagine how that effort could be better spent.

Many theists believe in miracle healing. There have been plenty of instances of ill people being "healed" by a priest, ceasing to take the medicines prescribed to them by doctors, and dying as a result. Some theists have died because they have refused blood transfusions on religious grounds.

It is arguable that the Catholic Church's opposition to birth control -- and condoms in particular -- is increasing the problem of overpopulation in many third-world countries and contributing to the spread of AIDS world-wide.

Religious believers have been known to murder their children rather than allow their children to become atheists or marry someone of a different religion. Religious leaders have been known to justify murder on the grounds of blasphemy.

There have been many religious wars. Even if we accept the argument that religion was not the true cause of those wars, it was still used as an effective justification for them.

RedCat,

You might like to know that the idea that believing in a god is a good bet is more commonly known as Pascal's Wager. For a somehwhat extensive discussion on this issue follow this link -
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pascal-wager/

Apart from the objections that Boris has stated, like which god is the correct one to follow then there is the question of whether the god selected will believe you.

We must assume that any worthwhile god would be able to see through any deception and any insincerity. If you said you only believed in him because it was a safe bet then surely you would be summarily dismissed.

If you really want to believe in something then it seems worthwhile having some real deeply considered, and sound reasons.

Have fun
Cris

Cris, thats not why I believe in God, just had random thoughts about my life, but anyhow,

****P.S.> A guy from India told me today (I don't know if it's actually true or not) that on the Indian continent alone there are currently 3,000,000 worshipped gods. Holy cow! ****

well now think of what happens if those 3,000,000 gods suddenly are proven to not exist, i'm not sure anyone would like the responsibility of telling the millions of believers the truth and showing the proof, because more than likely there will still be many that will see to it that the proof is distroyed and keep the religion alive, and others that will fight for thier god and then the world goes into turmoil, and countries are torn between religions and split. Then wars break out and maybe lead to nucular war. *shrugs* just a thought
I admit there isn't any safe way to believe in a god with the possibility of unlimited gods existing, however niether is not believing so it should't matter whether you do or don't believe, exept to yourself of course.

-Red "gutted, minced, skewered and roasted on a slow fire" Cat

------------------
What is Time?

Cris,

Thanks for the link! Here's another, which I find a bit easier to follow: <a href="http://www.positiveatheism.org/faq/pascal.htm">Pascal's Wager</a>. From that same site, here is a list of <a href="http://www.positiveatheism.org/faq/arguindex.htm#theist">Theistic and Atheistic Arguments</a>.

Enjoy! :)

Emerald

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An ye harm none, do what ye will.

Emerald,

Yes a good link. Many thanks. I did have another link for Pascals Wager that was similarly an easy read but I guess I didn't make a bookmark - nuts - oh well.

The Positive Atheism site is pretty good, hadn't seen that before. I continue in wonder at my incredible ignorance of things that are readily available.


I grabbed a couple of quotes that seem relevant for this thread.

There exists, I believe, throughout the whole Christian world, a law which makes it blasphemy to deny or doubt the divine inspiration of all the books of the Old and New Testaments, from Genesis to Revelations. In most countries of Europe it is punished by fire at the stake, or the rack, or the wheel.... Now, what free inquiry, when a writer must surely encounter the risk of fine or imprisonment for adducing any argument for investigating the divine authority of those books?
-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, January 23, 1825, from James A. Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief

I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!
-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, from George Seldes, The Great Quotations, also from James A. Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief

Take care
Cris

Cris,

Great quotes! The second one brings something else to mind. If you use a Strong's Concordance to look up the word "cross", this is what you'll see:

4716 stauros {stow-ros'}

from the base of 2476; TDNT - 7:572,1071; n m

AV - cross 28; 28

1) a cross
1a) a well known instrument of most cruel and ignominious punishment, borrowed by the Greeks and Romans from the Phoenicians; to it were affixed among the Romans, down to the
time of Constantine the Great, the guiltiest criminals, particularly the basest slaves, robbers, the authors and abetters of insurrections, and occasionally in the provinces, at the arbitrary pleasure of the governors, upright and peaceable men also, and even Roman citizens themselves
1b) the crucifixion which Christ underwent
2) an upright "stake", esp. a pointed one, used as such in fences or palisades

Could it be that in the original story, the intent was to have Jesus executed by means of impalement? :eek:

I'm glad you enjoyed the website. :)

Emerald

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An ye harm none, do what ye will.

RedCat,

The kabob thing was only my way of extending a warm welcome to hell... ;) ;)

And so after all that, we come back to the original question regarding your faith:

why would you want to go and have a silly thing like that?

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I am; therefore I think.

Boris,

not even gonna go there, cause your just gonna come back with historical events that took place that lead to the original beliefs in gods that were mearly ideas to explain how everything came to be, or something of that such. Seen ya do it before. ;)

"not even gonna go there, cause your just gonna come back with historical events that took place that lead to the original beliefs in gods that were mearly ideas to explain how everything came to be, or something of that such. Seen ya do it before."

Yes, Genesis: "In the beginning..."

I feel that faith is often the product of strong belief which is motivated by human intuition maybe.

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It's all very large.

LT,

"God does not exist.
Give me any reason you can to suggest otherwise."

Prove he doesn't exist.

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It's all very large.

Bowser, RedCat,

How about this for a Christian definition of faith.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/about/faith.asp

But note especially the last statement -

(vi) By definition, no apparent, perceived, or claimed evidence in any field, including history and chronology, can be valid if it contradicts the Scriptural record. Of primary importance is the fact that evidence is always subject to interpretation by fallible people who do not possess all information.

Consider the first sentence. In plain English, it translates to, "Nothing you can say can convince me that I am wrong."

This in essence is one of the key problems that non-Christians have when attempting to reason with Christians. It really doesn't matter the strength of any reasoned argument if it doesn't agree with scripture. The Christian will believe Scripture despite reason.

Isn't this called dogma?

So redCat Do you agree with that statement of faith given in the above link, or are you open to reasoned debate?

Take care
Cris


[This message has been edited by Cris (edited February 12, 2001).]

quote: RedCat

"Because we have faith, faith being that you believe in something that cannot be proven."

quote: Boris

"And why would you want to go and have a silly thing like that?"


Probably for the same reason that you want to believe we came from swap sludge ;) (and no I don't want to get into a big "where did I come from" debate. Apart from saying that you were not there, I was not there and the whole thing hinges on others subjective hypothesises and research and description, and not our own first hand "subjective" experience).

People believe things, Boris try's to back his up with facts according to human intelligence, wisdom and science (and does a pretty good job of it), others according to superstition, others according to faith. Faith is a word used to describe things that go beyond our human understanding and knowledge, things that reflect the character and nature of the God that we Christians profess to be real. Faith is the word used to account for events and happenings that seem to have NO humanly logical or scientifically verifiable cause. Faith is the belief in that which is unseen and unproved by mans means. If it was proven or shown to be real then one would not need faith. Logically just because it can't be proven does not mean that it does not exist, it just means we can not prove scientifically while we live what we in our hearts believe and know to be true.

Now I could go on and cite many Bible verses regarding faith and many examples of how faith was used to overcome seemingly insurmountable obstacles and near impossible diseases and illness, how faith built nations and lack of it caused their demise. I could come up with examples of peoples lives where the only description of what has happened to them is miraculous. But having been around here for some time I know that Boris, Cris and others will counter with "subjectivity". These cases were individuals own subjective experiences, they may even throw in terms like psychosomatic and some bigger ones that I can't spell to make their arguments seem stronger and more authoritative than whimpy subjective Christian argument and faith. And then there will be the demand for verifiable evidence, of which eye witness accounts will not be acceptable due to that subjectivity thing again. (lucky its not a court of law)

I would tend to agree with them to a point, yes I do think that fallen man who tends to exaggerate how big the fish was that got away can and does colour thing to suit their ideas, causes, beliefs, politics and science even. However I also believe in a God of the miraculous, who can and does carry out unexplainable things that can not be humanly grasped, who can heal the person infected with Aids, who can make a twisted mind clear, who can rebuild brittle and broken bones, who can do these things and then even more. Things that science has no explanation for, things that science would have us believe as impossible but by the very word Faith, Faith in the One who does them, well then they become possible. And why? So that His grace towards mankind can be seen but not explained by the wisdom or knowledge of man.

I think in my first post ever here I said that I could not prove God to you, I can't. But I can share with you the proof of Him in my life, as subjective as you may want to call it is my proof of Him and mine alone. I can not prove God to you and no human can, they can only share with you what it is that God has done in them, only God can prove Himself to you and only you can let Him, one on one, no gimmicks, no flashing lights, no swish speakers, no fancy props. The little bit of irony though from a humanistic stance is that it requires that little sticking point to let Him, FAITH - Believing in that which is unseen, unprovable, unmeasurable for it to become real to you. Its the only proof you'll get this side of eternity, that is if your game? Because when it does become real it shatters so many illusions, concepts and ideas that one could have about themself and that which surrounds them. It shakes you to your core and then some more, if you want the truth.

So to RedCat keep believing, for without faith it is impossible to please God. For Boris, Cris, Tiassa, Mooncat, Searcher and others try believing and then by Gods grace you will see things differently, don't believe in mans ideas about God but go direct and find out for yourself who He is. But I guess knowing you guys then that would be like asking a mouse to be a lion or a brick to be a log. We so often discuss being narrow minded around here, having a closed mind to what others think and believe. Not wanting or trying to see things from a different perspective, walk a mile in my shoes mate and things will look different mentality, hey I don't doubt that but its strange how we point that finger yet somehow the tag fits each of us as well - go figure hey?

Allcare

Tony H2o

H2O-

I think you'll find that we do not want to try to believe in God because we find the whole concept ridiculous.

What we do like to do is to argue the point that faith is not in itself a good thing. The 20th century was one of total war - a good part of that due to 'faith' - Palestine and Israel are just about to kick off again and it just seems silly to me. Faith got the Waco clan exterminated, has caused numerous mass suicides and religious persecution that has spanned millennia.

I would in fact say that faith in the Almighty is a bad thing, not only a wasted effort but one that leaves an individual feeble-minded and removes that person's responsibility for his or her own ethics and morality. It provides an unreasonable framework to judge others and elevates petty individuals to a false belief of superiority. I have had people who I would rank as being worthless individuals claim superiority merely because they would be going to heaven and myself to hell 'because they believe in God'.

At the end of the day I feel superior myself because I decided that it was far better to believe in something credible and responsible (such as atheism and science) rather than something at best pointless and at worst irresponsible (such as God and Heaven).

I think you and others of your kind should try not believing in God. I find it much more fulfilling spiritually, emotionally and intellectually.

Large Toad.

------------------
God does not exist.

Know also that I have utter and total contempt for anyone who might use the "If you believe in God then it doesn't matter if he exists or not because you won't go to hell" argument.

In terms of spinelessness and wilfull neglect of your own potential as a human being no argument matches this for weakness.

You might as well start worshipping UFOs just so that they can ship you off when nuclear armageddon occurs.

One more thing (and I hope this makes sense to you):

It's clear to me that every Christian must concede that their God might be a fake.

You see, Allah could have been having a laugh and decided to fool lots of people by inventing an alter-ego and making those people worship a 'holy cow', the Christian God.
Or a Hindu deity could have done the same.
Or an Other-worldly malevolent force.
Or some aliens on UFO's.

The suggestion is that if someone posits that a divine force (esp. an omnipotent one) exists then they must also concede that that force can make them believe whatever it wants them to.
If they concede that this force can make them believe whatever it wants them to then they must concede that their faith is subject to another's whim and therefore has the potential to be unsound.

Therefore any divine theory suffers from inherent***

oh bugger - I've just been laid off - I have some things to sort out. This is so funny. Maybe God is trying to punish me for my wilful blasphemy. Sorry, anyone else want to carry on my thread of argument feel free. Later guys.

SHIT.

***

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God does not exist.

"By definition, no apparent, perceived, or claimed evidence in any field, including history and chronology, can be valid if it contradicts the Scriptural record. Of primary importance is the fact that evidence is always subject to interpretation by fallible people who do not possess all information.

Consider the first sentence. In plain English, it translates to, 'Nothing you can say can convince me that I am wrong.'"

I couldn't get your link to load. Anyway, your position demands an absolute belief in one or another direction of thought. Descartes, as mentioned in Emerald's link, recognized the weakness of our human condition. I think reason is a subjective thing, and rightly so. It is subjected to individual perceptions. We can't define boundries which offer any certainty where God exist because we are not gods.

"By definition, no apparent, perceived, or claimed evidence in any field, including history and chronology, can be valid if it contradicts the Scriptural record."

Genesis/Darwin. If you believe the "Scriptural record" as being spiritual fact, all other evidence in contradiction is deception. I would rather give biblical history its place with respect to those people who percieved life as a spiritual existence, and who experienced it as such. If we are to believe that the Bible is an analytical observation of metaphysical reality, then all other contradictions to this observed truth must be false. In contrast, logical positivism asserts that, since a blind man can't see light, then light must not exist.

Again, our observations (evidence) is SUBJECTED to human reasoning. If we believe in "scriptural record," would it be reasonable to associate apparent, perceived, or claimed evidence in any field, including history and chronology, with a false perception--the Devil's work?

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It's all very large.

[This message has been edited by Bowser (edited February 12, 2001).]

LT,

"oh bugger - I've just been laid off - I have some things to sort out."

Been there. Done that. I just started a new job two week ago. Maybe Cris can lead us in a prayer for the economy. <img src = "http://www.exosci.com/ubb/icons/icon10.gif">

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It's all very large.

Prayer? Prayer? Don't start me on that. Prayer must rank up there among the most idiotic activities imaginable, like owning garden gnomes, and talking to flowers.

Cris--

A prayer:

Dear Lord, please take back your Dubya and let our economy get back to its business. In the name of profit and prosperity almighty ... Amen.

Or,

Now I lay me down to sleep,
I pray the Lord my job to keep.
If I get fired before I wake,
I pray the Lord George-Dubya to take.

Why I'm so hard on the Dubya

First, we know from history that economic melodrama is a purely psychological issue. Watch any company that goes in this current--um ...--"recession". My heart would bleed for them, except that I work for an insurance company that has been bleeding out the ears for about three years at least, now, and every week I'm surprised to see that people are still throwing their money away on our stock.

Consider, for instance, how many times the "tech bubble" burst since '95. Most of those collapses have come during times when major players were in between product. For instance: everybody who had a 286 had to get a 486. Those computers were okay, but eventually had to be replaced by P-2's (I'm thinking on a corporate-infrastructural level.) So every company starts replacing equipment. That demand lessens, but a Windows or other software product picks up the lag. It's just that we're right in between huge products right now. Everyone knows about Intel's P4/1.4/400 that you need to wait another generation before you start replacing your P-350's. Of course the chip isn't selling as fast as execs or industry analysts would like, but this is known. Microsoft's .NET is some time from release. We won't have 100,000,000 copies of .NET shipping across our fair country anytime soon.

Take my own industry--insurance. On the one hand, companies are fighting to reduce governmental safety regulations. To the other, more and more insurance is required by law, policy, or other binding contractual necessity. (eg--automobile, forced-placement for home loans, multiple levels of professional liability) As insurers use the number of disasters, accidents, and so forth as justification for their bad numbers, we have to consider that if certain regulations were in place, the risks involved wouldn't be so potentially hurtful. On top of it all, the fact that insurance is mandated creates a regulatory nightmare that prevents companies from gouging customers with their rates in order to recover the losses. (This does not mean, of course, that gouging does not occur; anyone who's been force-placed for a home-loan knows this.)

So sure, we've got an industry between upswings (tech), and a key industry turning south (insurance), and so forth. This is not at all different from the last several years, except there's some bozo up in the White House hollering, "Recession! Recession!"

I hope you all realize what Bush's recession is for: he now needs make no economic progress compared to the state of the empire on the day of his inauguration. If Bush emerges from his first four years with absolutely zero economic growth, he will be re-elected.

About the middle of January, I read an AP article discussing the efforts of some economists to counter the notion that there was a recession. The signs weren't there, they said. Everything showed potential for normal progress.

And then Time magazine ran its cover story: How to survive the recession, and it was all over. The economists, knowing recession psychology, have switched from prevention to control, and may actually have to switch from theories of control to theories of recovery. And all so that a Republican of questionable capability gets another four years. Now that's foresight.

* Uh-oh! New home sales are slipping; it must mean the economy's falling apart. No ... it simply means that of the people buying new homes, more of them are into their homes than there are looking.

* Prices in my local Albertson's supermarket did not go up 5-10% on January 1, 2001. The prices at my local supermarket rose on January 21, 2001.

Rough hit about the jobs, though. Best hopes wherever needed. To that end, I'll even note that, working in a service job, when my corporation folds, I'll be one of the last ones out the door.

Gotta run. That's all folks. That sort of thing.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

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No, don't seek control, and the milk of heaven will flow. Why would you want to keep it from anyone? (Floater)

"Prayer must rank up there among the most idiotic activities imaginable, like owning garden gnomes, and talking to flowers."

Sexual intercourse looks pretty stupid too, but it's still a popular sport.

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It's all very large.

Originally posted by Bowser:
Sexual intercourse looks pretty stupid too, but it's still a popular sport.


So what you're saying is that you think prayer is like sex right?

Ah ha, now I'm beginning to understand the Christian mentality.

Cris--

Prayer must rank up there among the most idiotic activities imaginable, like owning garden gnomes, and talking to flowers.


Perhaps it is merely my ignorance, but I find myself obliged to protest the above statement.

As I recall, talking to your flowers, unlike talking to God, actually has a measurable result.

Of course, I was wrong about the lemmings, so who knows? ;)

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

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No, don't seek control, and the milk of heaven will flow. Why would you want to keep it from anyone? (Floater)

God is a paradox. Only paradox can make God do everything, which includes making the possible impossible, and making the impossible possible. This also implys that God is all knowing, all good, and all mighty, along with the facts that God is also a fool, all evil and powerless.

Another way to think of God is mulitplying zero with infinity.

Tiassa,

A very cursory search on talking to plants, no one seems to talk to flowers, at least I couldn’t find any web references.

Here is possibly a scientific viewpoint - When you talk to plants, you release carbon dioxide into the atmosphere, where plants take this in and utilize it.

So really just get up close and personal and breath on them.

Another note I found –

I keep on telling those weeds to get out of my garden or I'll rip them up. They refuse to move. What do you think about them?

1. Need hearing aids.
2. Are excessively arrogant and stubborn.
3. Don't have ears.

I guess my real point was that since plants have no brain-like system to interpret your words then they aren’t going to understand you. And prayer is just the same as talking to an imaginary thing which also does not have any brain-like system, so that again is a futile activity.

Now if we are talking about making people feel better then there are many very productive meditation techniques that will do a far superior job and where the benefits are very definitely documented.

The futility of the actions, prayer and flower talk, was that there is nothing there that will understand what you are saying.

But, hey, I could be wrong as well, maybe.

Cris

Cris--

I keep on telling those weeds to get out of my garden or I'll rip them up. They refuse to move. What do you think about them?

Try jazz?

Actually, in the end, it's probably bogus research, but I do remember, as part of the rock and roll wars, a number of studies designed to show that rock and roll was bad for humans. As I recall, this idea was followed shortly by a fad which declared that Bach was good for the plants.

Thus, I'll back the CO2 theory, and also suggest that you hire a Welsh boys' choir.

But in the end, the plants are smart enough to know when to grow or not.

;)

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

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No, don't seek control, and the milk of heaven will flow. Why would you want to keep it from anyone? (Floater)

Whoops.

The futility of the actions, prayer and flower talk, was that there is nothing there that will understand what you are saying.

I should second that, as well. Maybe talking to your marijuana is the only observable result: "C'mon, baby ... Daddy wants to smoke you."

Dunno, a lot of dealers I know talk to their plants, but I always figured they thought the plants were talking back.

--Tiassa :cool:

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No, don't seek control, and the milk of heaven will flow. Why would you want to keep it from anyone? (Floater)

going back to largetoad's posts for a sec...

Yes I agree religion has cause many wars that don't seem to have a major impact. However many things have come as a result of religion: The fall of Rome was largely due to the spread of Christianity, The colonization of America by the English (puritans wanting to get away from the English Church.) And also the little wars could add up like evolution, many small changes little by little.

As for plants and music, I don't go for the CO2 concept.
1) those experiments usually use sterios.
2) already enough around.
I go for the idea that the vibrations of the music somehow stimulate/stunt the growth. Rock & Roll vs Classical sorta like Milk vs Beer. ;)

But I wouldn't know about the beer thing, I do drink approximately .7 gallons of milk a day though.

Anyhow back to my latin homework, and then to pray, oh wait yeah prayer, reason:
Cause since I have faith in God I gotta:
1) Let him know I thank him for my advantages
2) Ask him for his help sometimes.
3) Ask him to help others.
4) Just to share my feelings at times.
5) Because at that time I know he will listen.
6) Let him in my heart.

and if ya don't think thats reason enough, then your probably asking why. Well, my answer is simple: Because! :)

-RedCat the allmighty latin student, yeah right.
---------------------------------------------
I do what I do because I do.
Why?
Because!

Quote Toad

"I think you'll find that we do not want to try to believe in God because we find the whole concept ridiculous.

What we do like to do is to argue the point that faith is not in itself a good thing. The 20th century was one of total war - a good part of that due to 'faith' - Palestine and Israel are just about to kick off again and it just seems silly to me. Faith got the Waco clan exterminated, has caused numerous mass suicides and religious persecution that has spanned millennia.

I would in fact say that faith in the Almighty is a bad thing, not only a wasted effort but one that leaves an individual feeble-minded and removes that person's responsibility for his or her own ethics and morality. It provides an unreasonable framework to judge others and elevates petty individuals to a false belief of superiority. I have had people who I would rank as being worthless individuals claim superiority merely because they would be going to heaven and myself to hell 'because they believe in God'."

Hi Toad,

Thanks for the response, I've been down this road about the evils of faith a number of times with others here and for the sake of sanity do not wish to get into a long drawn out debate about it.

I would however like to make a distinction, Faith in itself IS a good thing. I think what you wrote should have said religion in itself is not a good thing. Then we would perfectly agree, as religion is mans way of organising , developing, marshalling etc faith. It creates an environment that is perfect for fanatics to carry out acts of brutality, abuse, immorality and worse all in the name of the one that it claims to serve. The sad and shocking reality that will confront each of us at the close of time is that so many things that we claim to have done in the name of this god that god and the other were in actual fact never asked of us, never condoned by God and never sanctioned by Him. This reminds me of a Bible verse in Matthew 25 (I think) where Jesus talks about the close of time and says that on that day many will come say but Lord we did this, that and the other in your name, then He will say to them get away from me for I never knew you. We did this, we did that, its what we as humans do to each other supposedly in the name of God when God has had no say in it. We presume that this action is justified that that course of action is sanctified just because we were a religious label??? And the end result is that people like you Toad end up wit a bent view of what Jesus was all about and who God truly is. No surprises there hey?

So the distinction should be fairly clear by now, I don't like religion! But I love God, I love my saviour and Lord Jesus, I love taking the time to try to understand with my limited abilities what He truly stood for, what He really came to achieve and why. The distinction is that faith, true faith, not a word that is bandied about to fit ones belief system but true faith. This kind of faith brings about the will and purpose of God through the lives of those who live in it and respond to it through love. This faith brings life where there was none, healing where there were scares, and peace in the midst of the turmoil that surrounds us in a world of trouble.

I agree with you Toad, so much said and done in His name when the truth is that He never said to do any of it. His instructions are simple, faith is not a complex tangled web of rules and regulations, its a lifestyle.

So I'm sorry if someone has said or done something that has shown you differently, I'm sorry for the examples that you cite and that have occurred throughout history, I'm sorry and saddened by the way these events can rob a person of having a wonderful understanding and relationship with God. I'm sorry Toad but there is nothing I can do about it, it has happened and will continue to happen. Somehow I know though that God sees this and a part of Him understands this, understands how these things present an obstacle to people like you and I who are limited in our understanding of things that happen in a spiritual realm, in a place outside of our vision and senses.

BTW I have not always believed what I now believe, as incredible as it is. I have not always believed in God.....but that's another chapter.

Quote Toad:

"The suggestion is that if someone posits that a divine force (esp. an omnipotent one) exists then they must also concede that that force can make them believe whatever it wants them to.
If they concede that this force can make them believe whatever it wants them to then they must concede that their faith is subject to another's whim and therefore has the potential to be unsound."

Firstly sorry to hear you got laid off, hope you get a new job soon.

To respond to your last two posts is difficult, essentially what I see in your words is that an all powerful being could make us be and believe what ever it wanted us to.

Yes and No, yes an all powerful being would have the power and authority to do that. No it would not because with authority and power comes a responsibility. A responsibility to act in a way that ensures the best possible outcome, a responsibility to be true to standards set by no higher authority, a responsibility to be true to its own character and nature by which that all powerful being applies judgement, for that judgement begins with that being.

What I am saying is that God the God that I believe in is a God who is true and just according to the highest standards set by the highest authority - His own. He must act and He must behave according to how his very character and nature dictate. The standards that He is governed by are without fault and as such prevent Him from acting or behaving in a way that would bring deceit, His ways are truth, His ways are not hidden in mystical acts or in shrouded in secrecy, they are open and accountable.

As such we must judge according to those standards, Jesus said the same He spoke of mans judgement as corrupted, He inspired people to judge by incorruptible standards - Gods standards. How? By taking the time and showing the wisdom to look beyond the narrow blinkered vision that we so often have. To attempt to see things from a divine perspective, to look at the whole and not just the parts that appeal to us as individuals.

Gods truth is there, yes there is a sea of alternatives and imitations, a sea of confusion and deceit, a sea of seemingly endless horizon of directions to move in. But there is only one direction that will lead to safe haven. Find that and you find life, discover that truth and you discover your place in eternity.

God did not make the sea of confusion or the stew of delusion. He made the truth and its only the truth can set us free.

Quote: daktaklakpak

"God is a paradox. Only paradox can make God do everything, which includes making the possible impossible, and making the impossible possible. This also implys that God is all knowing, all good, and all mighty, along with the facts that God is also a fool, all evil and powerless.
Another way to think of God is mulitplying zero with infinity."

Maths aside for a moment, what paradox do you see?

Can a camel go through the eye of a needle? With man this is impossible but with God all things are possible for those that believe.

Back to the numbers, another way to look at this is to pick a number between 0 and 1. Divide it by another number, divide it again, and again, and again.....repeat infinite. Result = you still have a number and an infinite number of numbers between two fix constraints, correct?

Well God is like that, He is constrained by His very character and nature to act and behave in a particular manner and way yet He and His abilities are also infinite between those constraints. God and God alone sets the boundaries by which He is contained, I would suggest that these boundaries are found in His character and nature, in the very attributes that make Him who He is and that dictate how He must react in any given situation. It almost sounds illogical, but proves logical even mathematically. We could spend hours talking about this and relating it back to many Biblical principles and stories like the fall of Lucifer and man etc. Supposed atrocities, supposed contradictions.............. etc. From mans perspective some of these things do appear ....well unusual on the surface, however when you dig deeper and attempt to grasp the weight of what was occurring on a grander scale, an eternal perspective, a divine perspective and in light of the Divine Ones character it makes sense. Unfortunately though my boss pays me to work not just preach and pray for pay ;) and so maybe some other time we can discuss this in more detail.................back to the grind.


Allcare

Tony H2o

The paradox comes in may ways. One exmple is God can do anything, but does it include making Himself un-God? This can be quite fatal if God is not in a paradox state. Only a paradox can unite all the conflicting states.

Who say that a Camel can never cross the eye of a needle? It can't by now, but no one can promise it won't in the future. And from a mathematical point of view, a Camel can pass through anything just by invoking an extra dimension over our 3-D space.

0 to 1 is an bad example, because that means God can't do things that described by number greater than 1. Negative infinity to positive infinity is better. It includes all the possible numbers. But it also creates a problem, because infinity is undefined, so does that imply God is undefined, too?

Here is another paradox state for God: God exists in everywhere, yet can't be found in anywhere.

Hiya Tony,
Is your E-mail still valid?

Take care

"So what you're saying is that you think prayer is like sex right?"

Are you still a virgin, Cris? I have watched Holly Rollers in action once. That looked somewhat like a group orgasm. Maybe there is a comparison.

I think that most human activity would look dumb when viewed objectively.




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It's all very large.

Bowser,

Again, our observations (evidence) is SUBJECTED to human reasoning. If we believe in "scriptural record," would it be reasonable to associate apparent, perceived, or claimed evidence in any field, including history and chronology, with a false perception--the Devil's work?

It's a good point but how does one reach the decision that 'spiritual record' is true without using 'limited' human reasoning. Aren't you arguing against yourself because at some point you would have felt that to believe the scriptures is reasonable. Why do you think your sense of reasoning is superior to mine, or more generally to non-believers of scripture.

Cris

Bowser,

Originally posted by Bowser:
I have watched Holly Rollers in action once. That looked somewhat like a group orgasm.

I don't know 'Holly Rollers'. However, I can understand how being on ones knees does sometimes have its merits. :D

Cris

Cris--

You ever see a Foursquare service? With the whooping and hollering and hopping around and the "receiving" of the "spirit" when overweight women are overcome and pass out? (I was moved by Jesus! No, honey, you just hyperventilated. Praise Jesus!

Of Bowser's analogy, I might say we should respect it well. To the one hand, yes, such services do look rather like an orgy with clothes. To the other, he's in Oregon, and I recall there's quite the number of goofball congregations down there.

Someone once mentioned the snakes. Generally, we count the snake-handling Christians as holy rollers, too. I dunno--is there actually a Church of Jesus Christ of the Holy Rollers out there? Wouldn't surprise me at all.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

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No, don't seek control, and the milk of heaven will flow. Why would you want to keep it from anyone? (Floater)

So, as far as I can gather from any relevant responses to my question (i.e. why have faith at all, being that it is just an groundless belief), the following points are made:

1) There are things that science cannot explain, and therefore they must be magical. (Tony)
2) Faith drives people into noble behaviors they wouldn't entertain otherwise. (Tony)
3) Who cares, it makes me feel good. (RedCat)

None of which strikes me as mature, responsible or indeed well-considered. Here's why:

<hr>
1) You are saying that the unexplained cannot be explained, and never will be explained. Talk about repeating past mistakes (you're supposed to learn from history, not selectively acknowledge it.) A lot of things happened since the Bible was written down; it might be helpful to pay attention to those latter happenings (which are, by the way, far better grounded than the miracle happenings of Christ.) On the other hand, every time you make a "miracle" claim, you are making a bet that the "miracle" will not eventually succumb to mundane explanation. Countless such bets have fallen through already, but that does not seem to dull the conviction of those who made them. Rather the failures seem to have been comfortably forgotten, and attention shifted to the new "miracles". Yes, that bit about learning from the past really fits the overall tune here.

Consider that the doctrine of miracles and scriptural fidelity is an orthodox force acting against free thought; if all humans were equally under its spell, we would never achieve our current level of civilization. Exploration is a function of herecy, of going against the omnipresent dogma. If it were not for the open and secret herecy of inquisitive minds, science (if it could be so designated) would have been limited in its progress to mere serendipity, and even then discoveries counter to dogma would have been discarded and discounted as evil magic. That dogma dances to an anscient tune, a depressing one that draws on despair, and the dance is that of stagnantion, rot, devolution. It has been the end of all anscient civilizations, even glorious and magnificent ones that spanned millenia -- and yet you still won't learn. You participate in that dance eagerly, you even aspire to lead it.

Far be it from science or the infidels to shun the unknown; indeed they welcome it with glee. But the excitement stems not from a giddy anticipation of yet another potential miracle to reaffirm sagging faith; it is the joy of plunging into the unknown, exploration, experience and ultimately comprehension. Only a naive child would think that the universe is now completely mapped by our theories; here too it is a simple matter of learning from the past. Yet even beyond that, no rigorous theory in sight dares to explain the ultimate phenomenon and paradox of existence. Until this fundamental puzzle is resolved, science will ever be an enterprise in progress.

Most of all, to accept a doctrine of miracles and unexplainability, is to propose that the universe is fundamentally chaotic and unstructured. Not only is that a defeatist attitude, but it flatly contradicts everyday experience. The keystone of science is a "faith" of sorts, and the religious debaters dance around it often in these forums, misrepresenting it and equating it to their own groundless beliefs. That faith derives not from scripture or from revelation, nor from authoritative personages with gargantuan reputations, not from wishful thinking or a sense of awe, not from dreams, hallucinations, vicarious experiences or mysterious happenings, but from the very fact of existence, and this faith consists in observations of that very reality's structure and order.

The faith of a scientist is that the universe be a fundamentally structured and ordered entity, down to its most essential layers. Science no longer aspires to know the complete and exact state of the univese, however -- as such endeavors are proven to be impossible. Science no longer aims to quantify and predict every last variable in the universe's grand equation. Nevertheless, the underlying basis of confidence for all free-thinkers rests ultimately upon their own selves and the world around them -- a postulation that such order cannot in principle arise from a fundamental chaos, that lasting patterns can only arise from sub-patterns and not from noise, and that therefore the universe has to be structured along its entire range of existence. And if the universe is indeed a fundamentally orderly entity, then all of its forms and manifestations must be nothing other than permutations and patterns built out of and on top of that essential structure. Therefore, the reasoning goes, any observed phenomenon can be reduced to its constituent parts and the interactions between them. All one needs, is a correct understanding of the fundamental building blocks and all the different ways in which they hook up at all the relevant scales, as well as the time-evolution of such an assemblage (and these, of course, all constitute the doozey and the struggle.) As our understanding of the basic building blocks and their interactions is refined, and as we get down to progressively more fundamental building blocks, our understanding of the universe at large continues to grow in scope and detail. This trend of remarkable growth, to which anyone can attest, is a direct verification of the basic scientific assumptions, of the new (and yet most anscient) "faith" that is the antithesis to religion.
<hr>
2) One needn't fear or worship or pray or dream of afterlife in order to be kind, noble, charitable and wise. Indeed, one can be all those things and a great deal more, when one chooses such behavior through a logical process that leaves no doubts or reservations, nor any ambiguities or excuses for reinterpretation. Indeed, a complete atheist can behave like a perfect saint; all that's required is a respect for one's own life, and a desire to give it meaningful purpose. Of course, it will never happen that all religious people would be so benign, and similarly it could never happen that all atheists reach such an ideal. Indeed, the degree of antisocial or egoistical behavior in a population is quite independent of the prevailing faith, but rather a function of many other social and biological variables -- as history abundantly illustrates.
<hr>
3) Wellbeing may be valuable, but its exact value varies depending on the price you pay for it. A shallow and dishonest existence leading to a life sentence in a fake universe is, for some, too high a price to pay for comfort.

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I am; therefore I think.

Hi all,

Little or no time to get into further discussion on this although its been great fun. If situation changes I will jump back in.

Boris,

I think you read me wrong. Noble behaviour? I don't even remember using the word? So please don't put words into my mouth.

Maybe religion makes for noble and whatever behaviour. Faith makes for behaviour that is not always accepted as "normal", not only behaviour but ideas, thoughts..etc.

Later.

Stretch,

Yes, same as it ever was.

Allcare

Tony H2o

Tony--

I got around to being sidetracked by this one.

For Boris, Cris, Tiassa, Mooncat, Searcher and others try believing and then by Gods grace you will see things differently, don't believe in mans ideas about God but go direct and find out for yourself who He is. But I guess knowing you guys then that would be like asking a mouse to be a lion or a brick to be a log. We so often discuss being narrow minded around here, having a closed mind to what others think and believe. Not wanting or trying to see things from a different perspective, walk a mile in my shoes mate and things will look different mentality, hey I don't doubt that but its strange how we point that finger yet somehow the tag fits each of us as well - go figure hey?

If I recall, our friend Cris grew up in a place where religion was somewhat mandated by the state. It seems that atheists don't get sick in England, as I recall.

I cannot speak for everyone, and probably shouldn't speak on Cris' behalf, except that the hospital and school stories make me smile just so. :D

And, just so we have it clear:

I remember the constant fear of being a Christian. I remember the bleeding hypocrisy; where do you think I learned to spot it? I, for heaven's sake, remember what it's like to be a Christian.

I would absolutely enjoy a discussion of your last foray into Wicca, atheism, agnosticism, Golden Dawn pseudo-Qabalism, Sufi, or any other philosophy or religion not Christian that you've spent a considerable portion of your life believing, exploring, learning, or divining.

I wear a size nine, kind sir.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

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No, don't seek control, and the milk of heaven will flow. Why would you want to keep it from anyone? (Floater)

tiassa,

Awright good memory. Yup the NHS (National Health Service) assumes that atheists must be part of the Church of England, you can’t not have a religion. :D

And Tony,

Like tiassa, I've been there, prayed, worshipped, wept for Jesus, and was generally duped by the pervasiveness of Christianity. It takes effort and courage to move against the trend and peer pressure, especially when one is a teenager. But it also requires the desire to think for oneself and to determine truth through satisfying personal search rather than accept what others believe, and what they want to force on others.

So here is an equal challenge to you. Try thinking like a true atheist for a while. I know you weren’t always a Christian and I know you have had a somewhat colorful past, but it sounded like you didn’t have a belief and then Christianity simply filled that void. You never made a choice of alternatives; you took the first system that came along when you were vulnerable. Try really putting yourself in the mind of someone with an opposing or opposite belief system, and experiment. If Christianity has any true value then it should be able to withstand your own personal critical examination. I dare you.

Take care
Cris

Cris,

"Aren't you arguing against yourself because at some point you would have felt that to believe the scriptures is reasonable."

I suppose it depends on your perception of evidence. I take much of standard written history as evidence, even though it's probably inaccurate or lacking whole truth. I still find some truth in it, and can see how it relates to my life.

"Why do you think your sense of reasoning is superior to mine, or more generally to non-believers of scripture."

I can't honestly make that claim. Also, I wouldn't force you to worship any god.

"I don't know 'Holly Rollers'."

They are a wild crowd when they are together. As silly as they might look, you won't find them pilaging Seattle or throwing stones at StarBucks or throwing a tantrum.

"However, I can understand how being on ones knees does sometimes have its merits."

Yeah, but that's an empty persuit.

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It's all very large.

Hey Bowser,

I'm going to ask you a question I've addressed before to the general public: Take your life, comb through it, consider the chain of cause and effect, and explain how come you aren't a Hindu, please.

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I am; therefore I think.

Without too much analysis, I am part Hindu. Is there some Christianity within you?

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It's all very large.

Bowser ....

Just as a side note:

I don't know 'Holly Rollers'."

They are a wild crowd when they are together. As silly as they might look, you won't find them pilaging Seattle or throwing stones at StarBucks or throwing a tantrum.

I wanted to mention how right you are. You will never find holy rollers doing anything so useful as smashing a Starbuck's or beating back overextended police authority.

;)

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

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No, don't seek control, and the milk of heaven will flow. Why would you want to keep it from anyone? (Floater)

Bowser,

Tiassa's right, you are a natural dodger. No, seriously, how come you are not a Hindu? How come it is the judaic God you are worshipping, and not Krishna, Shiva, etc?

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I am; therefore I think.

Dodger? I'm a rainbow of diversity! Wow, you guys sure are intolerant of anything that isn't totally black or white. <img src = "http://www.exosci.com/ubb/icons/icon10.gif">



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It's all very large.

So Bowser, if we stay in the GRAY area then, I assume you would be prepared to accept the idea that gods or God might not exist, right?

Bowser,

And your answer to the question is....

------------------
I am; therefore I think.

Quote tiassa:

"I got around to being sidetracked by this one."

If I recall, our friend Cris grew up in a place where religion was somewhat mandated by the state. It seems that atheists don't get sick in England, as I recall. I cannot speak for everyone, and probably shouldn't speak on Cris' behalf, except that the hospital and school stories make me smile just so.

And, just so we have it clear:

I remember the constant fear of being a Christian. I remember the bleeding hypocrisy; where do you think I learned to spot it? I, for heaven's sake, remember what it's like to be a Christian. I would absolutely enjoy a discussion of your last foray into Wiccan atheism, agnosticism, Golden Dawn pseudo-Qabalism, Sufi, or any other philosophy or religion not Christian that you've spent a considerable portion of your life believing, exploring, learning, or divining."


Tiassa,

I know I say things that may on occasion when I reread them sound challenging but were never meant to be so. Also I think you missed the "go figure" bit at the end, I was applying my statement as much to myself (walk a mile in my shoes) as I was reflecting on how it is for others. I was not saying that none bar me has been there, I was not stating that Cris and his experiences were irrelevant, and neither was I saying that you and your view and beliefs were rubbish. If I wanted to say that then I would have come straight out and said it so please do not infer that that is what I meant. Thank you kind sir ;)

I fully understand all the drawback of religion, even of my specific one that I profess. However I would say that the drawbacks that so often stick in peoples necks are human nature and applicable to any race, belief, creed...whatever. They are human traits that affect all humanity, to use them as an excuse or reason to slander another's beliefs, religion or faith is exactly the hypocrisy that you see being practiced. "I would never do that, you shouldn't", "I would never react like that, you shouldn't", "I would never go there, you shouldn't". Its a human condition but its not just confined to my faith, its a common human condition and its tentacles spread throughout all that humanity touches. Get past the hypocrisy bit OK, every race, every nation, every politician, every religion has their hypocrites, the ones that cry holier than thou. I understand if you have had bad experiences with believers, I understand that Cris did not find his peace in the religion he once had, do you guys honestly think that I am that dull, so obtuse that I don't know this? Do you think I have never been subject to it or subjected others to it? I have and as long as I draw breath I will. Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, Wiccan and any other "ism" or religion you care to throw in is not perfect because the people who practice them are not perfect and try as we may will never be. Get past slandering and bitching about my faith because of others, its not about them, it's not about who did what and when and why and where to whom. It about you and God, one on one and no finger pointing for excuse finding will ever absolve any of us of our standing as individuals before Him.

Its not perfect guys, it never has been and anyone who claims otherwise is telling lies. Religions have their skeletons in the past but the past is the past and the moment that you live or die is NOW! The time that we have to make our peace is the moment to moment passing of our existence. We can make every excuse under the sun not to try, we can blame this person and find this reason and look at that atrocity and think about what happened and who did it and never in all of it will we find the capacity to forgive and forget until we are forgiven and our past is forgotten.

I know its not easy! Do you think that I never doubt? Do you think that I am so far indoctrinated into a system of belief that I can not see reason or have understanding for the way others think?

When did I last cast off my faith? When did I last look at what another believes?

When did I ever stop?

Let me show you, let me give you a glimpse of what racks my brain when in the still of the night I stand before my God, searching my own soul, seeking for understanding, and at times feeling like I'm speaking to an empty heaven.

Cris' example poses questions to me about what I think and believe. As does the example of so many I know who once did believe. You want to see what goes on in my head about what I believe? You want to know the deepest thoughts are that plague me? There are many, way to many to list now, man alive I could send you guys reeling with questions that you never even dreamed of. The example of Cris, well I'd like to know why God did not take Cris when he did believe? He said that those that were His He would never let go, He said that He goes to prepare a place for us and will take us there. Then why does Cris now not believe? Wouldn't it have been better that he died and went to heaven than to live a lost eternity? Wouldn't it be better that Cris died in his faith than in his doubt?

I'm not without understanding or compassion or empathy, I'm not so blinkered as you guys may consider me to be because I stick to what I have found in my faith.

Don't try turning words around to make it appear that I have never or could never understand the position of another, the thoughts of another, the fears of another and the doubts of another. Damn it I do and I hear and feel every bit of doubt as much as they do!

I guess I'm like the disciples when they said "Lord we believe, help our unbelief". They had doubt also, the had confusion and fear plague them as much and if not more than any of us. Yet they believed, not just because of what they saw but because of what they lived, what inspired them and who inspired them, God Himself. They also could have made any and every excuse not to believe because of the past but they choose to believe in the present, in the one that stood before them and showed them a new way, a better way and confronted them with truth. John the Baptiser was likewise, while in prison he send his disciples to ask Jesus if He was the one or should they seek another? Here in prison was the man that Jesus referred to as the greatest prophet to ever live, doubting who Jesus was, unsure if the one who's sandals he was unfit to untie was actually who he had publicly proclaimed him to be.

I do understand why other do not necessarily believe what I do, I do understand doubt and fear, I do understand that there are many many questions that can not be answered. But I do not blame others for what I do and don't believe, I do not use attempt to find excuses I would much rather seek inspiration and the one who inspires. I do not run from my doubts or fears, I acknowledge that they exist and face them, I don't always immediately know the answers to them but that does not mean that I stop seeking them.

I believe, not because of any others words to me, I believe not because of what I have seen, I believe because of who I believe in and the inspiration and love that that gives me goes beyond my unbelief.


Allcare

Tony H2o

Tony,

A message from your heart again I see. I do have great respect for that. There really is no argument against personal feelings, and any criticism would be out of place.

I remember those doubts that wracked my brain. I no longer have any doubts, and that is a very pleasant feeling. And those feelings become stronger the more I debate with Christians.

The only way you will be able to understand my discovered perspective is to go through an 'awakening', a profound realization, (there is a word for this and I'm damned if I can remember it - tiassa, help!). And you aren't there yet, and you may never reach it. I'm sorry this sounds very condescending, and I'm in danger of sounding like the Christians I oppose. But your desire to question and doubt everything is highly admirable.

Take care
Cris

Cris,

"So Bowser, if we stay in the GRAY area then, I assume you would be prepared to accept the idea that gods or God might not exist, right?"

No, you can debate one position or the other. My premise is that god(s) may or may not exist. You can argue that there is no god(s), but you will be arguing with less than perfect knowledge.

Boris,

I gave you an answer.


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It's all very large.

Bowser,


My premise is that god(s) may or may not exist.


You are saying that you're an agnostic??!! What about all those references to "man's law" vs. "God's law"? And how come I never hear you mention Buddha, yet somehow God is all over your posts? And what's this constant breeze of creation coming out of your corner in every debate on evolution? And how does your intolerance of gays fit into the "rainbow", Mr. diversity?? Either you are suffering from a multiple personality disorder, or you are a Christian so strung out on the hypocricy that you can't even get your own self-assessment straight!

Oh, and as to whether you gave me an answer, I sure don't remember seeing any.

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I am; therefore I think.

[This message has been edited by Boris (edited February 15, 2001).]

Tony--

Maybe I'm a little reactionary this week. It wouldn't be the first time.

I was not saying that none bar me has been there, I was not stating that Cris and his experiences were irrelevant, and neither was I saying that you and your view and beliefs were rubbish. If I wanted to say that then I would have come straight out and said it so please do not infer that that is what I meant.

We both know that I can never, even with the best divinity, know the whole of your experiences.

Aside from that, where my dander raised slightly was, well ....

others try believing and then by Gods grace you will see things differently, don't believe in mans ideas about God but go direct and find out for yourself who He is. But I guess knowing you guys then that would be like asking a mouse to be a lion or a brick to be a log. We so often discuss being narrow minded around here, having a closed mind to what others think and believe. Not wanting or trying to see things from a different perspective, walk a mile in my shoes mate and things will look different mentality, hey I don't doubt that but its strange how we point that finger yet somehow the tag fits each of us as well - go figure hey?


Now, there are a couple of things that I will go figure.

* go direct and find out for yourself who [God] is

You mean like the half of my life I spent trying very hard to believe?

* But I guess knowing you guys then that would be like asking a mouse to be a lion or a brick to be a log

Well, if I've escaped the guillotine, should I really stick my neck back in and see if it's as sharp as it seemed? Or should I let the executioner cut my head off because it's unfair to assume that's what he's up to?

* Not wanting or trying to see things from a different perspective, walk a mile in my shoes mate and things will look different mentality

It sounds to me, then, like people aren't being fair to Christians if they don't spend their whole lives living as Christians. :rolleyes:

And, understanding that I have excerpted a portion of the sentence,

* hey I don't doubt that but its strange how we point that finger yet somehow the tag fits each of us as well - go figure hey?

So what you're saying is that because I'm not willing to go back to what I empirically know is a bad experience, I have no idea what I'm talking about? If you're wondering about that derivation, hold on.

When did I last cast off my faith? When did I last look at what another believes?

When did I ever stop?

Now the money question: When did you ever be something else?

That's like asking me when I last considered what a Christian believes: this morning, when I checked in to see the posts.

Now, when did I last try to be a Christian? Officially, I stopped when I was fourteen, maybe thirteen. It's been a while, I admit, but I at least was there. When was the last time you forsook your Christianity and undertook Wicca, Satanism (essentially Christianity, which is what makes it an easy transition), Hindu, Islam, Buddhism, or any such religion, or any philosophy? Christianity can tell me not to kill myself; so can Camus. Guess which philosophy makes more sense about why?

So walk that mile, if you haven't. Ask Moon for a broomstick. Take the trip to Mecca. Sit in quiet reflection of the world that is perceived, and the mysteries of God are not quite as mysterious.

You talk about people walking miles in shoes; I well appreciate the perspective. However, what I fail to understand is what miles you've walked other than Christianity.

I fully understand all the drawback of religion, even of my specific one that I profess. However I would say that the drawbacks that so often stick in peoples necks are human nature and applicable to any race, belief, creed...whatever.

Does your religion have a mandate to go forth and bring the world to your God? It seems to me that Christianity does. Now, perhaps I'm utterly mistaken in that, but history whispers a few things in my ear at this moment, and I see the twinkling of an evangelical church.

Why, then, do the churches evangelize? If it's for post-mortem glory in God, then what in God's name is so important about maintaining Christian standards in the world? What, then, is evangelism for if not to attain god's reward?

On the other hand, if evangelization is supposed to have any effect on society at the same time, well ... there's where all of the nasty politics become important. The Communists were so set on their plan of equalization that they would let hundreds of thousands starve in misery while implementing; at no time did that Revolution raise the quality of living to a satisfactory level. So I also see in Christian history. Much of the damage Christians work to repair in their missions happens to be a direct result of Christian influence. Sad but true. Given that historians estimate that between 90 and 95% of the American indigenous population died off in the first ... century, as I recall ... one might come to the conclusion that Spaniard encomienda was, in fact, merciful.

A contemporary example? Domestic violence. I've said before and I'll say again that women's shelters are a wonderful thing in this country, except for the fact that they're necessary. I'm quite happy the local diocese will take care of battered women; I also wish the local diocese would do something to dispel the misinterpretations of faith which can contribute to domestic violence. How about violence against children? Strangely, I can't recall ever meeting someone who believed in "spare the rod, spoil the child" who also belonged to a sect of the faith which works on behalf of battered children. Geez, maybe some of those fundamentalist churches could, I don't know, break the rhetorical cycle by which "Chrisitans" commit the wrongs that motivate their charity?

It's very simple: Christianity is supposed to be a good thing for the world, by its own perception of itself; history however demonstrates that Christianity, by its very nature, allows its faithful to simply destroy everything they come in contact with. Would you like to be a little more recent than the 16th century? Try the British in India. There's a nightmare that almost can't be described without exacting detail. And that debacle ran until 1947.

Christianity has proclaimed salvation, has demanded authority, and has largely complicated everything beyond necessity or acceptability.

For some, the "drawback" is simply too heavy a premium to exact from their neighbor.

They are human traits that affect all humanity, to use them as an excuse or reason to slander another's beliefs, religion or faith is exactly the hypocrisy that you see being practiced. "I would never do that, you shouldn't", "I would never react like that, you shouldn't", "I would never go there, you shouldn't". Its a human condition but its not just confined to my faith, its a common human condition and its tentacles spread throughout all that humanity touches.

Christianity, however, advocates a better human condition. It does not, generally, create one. Take the Wiccan need to improve the world: it's a little strange, and often respects the Golden Rule in the, "Do not do unto others ...," form. The best way to improve the world is to keep your own house in order first, and communicate what you know. In fact, the article I cited in the Disorganized thoughts thread reflects an aspect of this idea.

I understand if you have had bad experiences with believers, I understand that Cris did not find his peace in the religion he once had, do you guys honestly think that I am that dull, so obtuse that I don't know this?

No.

Do you think I have never been subject to it or subjected others to it?

Again ... No.

I have and as long as I draw breath I will.

Undoubtedly. However, you seem to find it a tad more acceptable a human condition than I.

I don't mind taking two steps back if we get a chance to take three steps forward. I will not, however, take two steps back just because someone says God thinks it's a good idea.

Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, Wiccan and any other "ism" or religion you care to throw in is not perfect because the people who practice them are not perfect and try as we may will never be.

You are very correct. I'm trying hard to find another philosophy to compare to the effort of Christianity as regards its own history. Certes the Communists blanched their history. Indeed, Islam is subject to its own cultural errors.

When, pray tell, was Christianity illegal in the British Empire?

I can't recall it ever being illegal in the US.

Zsusanna Budapest, however, was charged with witchcraft as late as the 1970's. In the US.

I don't recall, while living in Oregon, ever being asked to approve a ballot-attack on civil rights based on any holy book of Islam, Wicca, or Buddhism. I know I've voted on the basis of Capitalism, Socialism, Communism, and a few other political isms, but I think Christianity is the only religious philosophy I ever have to reject at the ballot box.

Get past slandering and bitching about my faith because of others, its not about them, it's not about who did what and when and why and where to whom.

The world's tiniest violin ....

Then it was never about the Communists, or the Nazis. It seems that our efforts to stop those machines were just our personal hatred of individuals we had no right to judge.

I know it's nice to puff up your own chosen label; I'm quite prone to it, in case anyone thinks I didn't notice. But if we measure results ... Christianity isn't cutting it.

Your individual faith-relationship with God is your own. And you can treat it any way you want. But you identify yourself as a Christian, which word conjures many associations. One of the quick defenses Christians often employ has to do with walking miles in others' shoes. As I've heard it explained before, and as I have complained before, that is absurd. Despite the fact that I already know well from experience what Christian faith is worth in human terms, I'm not joining to prove any points. In the same vein, I'm not going to shoot you in order to understand that murder is wrong. I can work it out on my own.

It about you and God, one on one and no finger pointing for excuse finding will ever absolve any of us of our standing as individuals before Him.

And what are you going to say when you're standing before him and he asks, "What the hell were you thinking?"

The use of such a patriarchal God is, in fact, pointing fingers and finding excuses. We do things because the Bible says it's right. Not because we actually know it's right. We believe it's right because God says it's right. But not because, quite simply, it's the right thing to do. It really saps the credibility of the faith. It's all about "me" and God.

Its not perfect guys, it never has been and anyone who claims otherwise is telling lies. Religions have their skeletons in the past but the past is the past and the moment that you live or die is NOW!

That's why I love the spectacle of millions of Christians re-enacting the same mistakes of the past in the here and now. As Bowser apparently failed to understand, just because we aren't holding an open inquisition in the public square does not mean we're treating people right.

We can make every excuse under the sun not to try, we can blame this person and find this reason and look at that atrocity and think about what happened and who did it and never in all of it will we find the capacity to forgive and forget until we are forgiven and our past is forgotten.

Fine, indeed. That's why it's easier just to say that God wills it.

And we might even take the logical consequence of death from a more Bolshevik perspective so that we can eliminate the sentiments attached to it for the moment of discussion. At the heart of what's wrong with the Inquisitions is the idea of purging society of those who do not neatly fit the prescribed class system. We can do it in the modern day with fire, with rifles, or even with laws.

Down in Oregon people have generally learned that burning the sinners to death generally isn't the best idea. It doesn't mean they're not still persecuting for arbitrary reasons.

Let me show you, let me give you a glimpse of what racks my brain when in the still of the night I stand before my God, searching my own soul, seeking for understanding, and at times feeling like I'm speaking to an empty heaven.

But, in the end, you're still dwelling within the confines of that God. Take my own "departure" as such from Wicca: It stopped working for me because it taught me how to make "religion" unnecessary in my life, and takes no offense when I employ the processes I learned within it without praising, citing, or otherwise crediting the Goddess.

Your sympathies are still bleeding from your Christian heart. When did they ever bleed from your Buddhist heart? Or your agnostic heart?

I'm not without understanding or compassion or empathy, I'm not so blinkered as you guys may consider me to be because I stick to what I have found in my faith.

You model your compassion after Christ? (I'm guessing, but since you do seem to consider yourself a Christian ....)

I like Christ's compassion. I like Emma Goldman's compassion. Both were Jews, but nothing about anything means either one of 'em was "God".

It's not that you have no compassion. But your standard for compassion often brings you to different conclusions than I about what is proper and what is detrimental. (I feel secure enough in that declaration, but if we need to enumerate, let me know.)

What I generally accuse Christianity of is assuming that its compassion is correct. History definitely backs me up on that.

Don't try turning words around to make it appear that I have never or could never understand the position of another, the thoughts of another, the fears of another and the doubts of another. Damn it I do and I hear and feel every bit of doubt as much as they do!

I've been a Christian. When I see a Christian in naked fear of God's wrath, based solely on Christian ideas of propriety, I know what that moment feels like because I have felt it myself.

You may hear and feel every bit of doubt and pain and confusion, but have you ever felt it with your Buddhist, Wiccan, Muslim, &c. heart?

I guess I'm like the disciples when they said "Lord we believe, help our unbelief". They had doubt also, the had confusion and fear plague them as much and if not more than any of us. Yet they believed, not just because of what they saw but because of what they lived, what inspired them and who inspired them, God Himself. They also could have made any and every excuse not to believe because of the past but they choose to believe in the present, in the one that stood before them and showed them a new way, a better way and confronted them with truth. John the Baptiser was likewise, while in prison he send his disciples to ask Jesus if He was the one or should they seek another? Here in prison was the man that Jesus referred to as the greatest prophet to ever live, doubting who Jesus was, unsure if the one who's sandals he was unfit to untie was actually who he had publicly proclaimed him to be.

You are still within your Christian context.

I will forego the last couple of paragraphs in citation; my response is the same as the prior sentence.

I would never accuse you of not feeling. I would, however, accuse you of not making much of an effort to extend your sympathies outside your own context. But that is based only on our present debate.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

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No, don't seek control, and the milk of heaven will flow. Why would you want to keep it from anyone? (Floater)

Tiassa,

Firstly, thank you for the time and effort you spend responding to my posts. I wish I had ample of the same to properly and thoughtfully respond likewise. But I don't so I'll attempt to answer a few points you raised without raising a few points to answer.

Another quick thing before I progress is that I notice that you take my posts and wording very literally, they are not intended as such. They are on the fly responses thrown together in haste, please read between the lines and try to see the general message I am attempting to convey.

Onward........

"Now, when did I last try to be a Christian? Officially, I stopped when I was fourteen, maybe thirteen. It's been a while, I admit, but I at least was there. When was the last time you forsook your Christianity and undertook Wicca, Satanism (essentially Christianity, which is what makes it an easy transition), Hindu, Islam, Buddhism, or any such religion, or any philosophy? Christianity can tell me not to kill myself; so can Camus. Guess which philosophy makes more sense about why?"

When did I officially stop practicing Satanism, witchcraft, meditation, seances etc. Well Tiassa I'm surprised your asking considering I have posted this previously, but giving the benefit of the doubt that you may have missed it.

Now when did I last try these things? Officially, I stopped when I was eighteen, maybe seventeen. It's been a while, I admit, but I at least was there.

I have spoken before about beings of darkness that visited me, the shadowmen. I have spoken before about my ancestry and their involvement in occult, I have discussed these things and I have been a part of them, so I do know what the grass on the other side looks like feels like and tastes like.

As for Hindu, Islam, Buddhism etc, I have looked into these belief systems and like any belief system they have good points and bad points. Buddhism wisdom is very much based in common sense. Hindu, well anything goes with hooves. Islam, again very good teachings can be found but also the very same narrow minded and fanatical capacity as some branches of Christianity. What I did not find in any of them was the Living God! Lots of rules and regulations, eat this, don't eat that, face this way to pray, self abuse through denial and the list goes on. Only in Jesus, only in His words, only in His truth did I find something that confronted me, confronted the very essence of who I am of what I thing of how I live of what I do. Yes I know that we have made a rule book out of it all and yes there are some rules that are placed in there for our own protection. But they are not rules that are there and demand obedience out of fear for me, they are rules and guide lines, they are laws based in love, because of my relationship with the Living God, because of His love and forgiveness, because He has set my soul free to have a living faith, because of these immeasurable qualities I in love want to obey, I want to do the right thing, I want to because I do not want to cause pain to the one who gave me more love, grace and mercy than I deserved. Who gave me a reason to live, who spoke words to my heart that no other system of belief ever did or ever could. This is my faith, you are quite right, this is my experience and again you are right, I simply come here to try to show others that they also can have the same. To cut through all the hype and razzamatazz down to the reality of what it is to know Him, its not just for me, its not just something that Tony has, its a faith that anyone can share in if they are brave enough to face up to their own demons. Because if you really want the truth, if you honestly seek to know this supreme being then it takes you to the edge of yourself. There are things about myself that my faith has confronted me with that I would never want to face if I didn't have the love of a living relationship with God to get me through. Faith demands a high price but when your there, when you know beyond the shadow of a doubt the reality of it..............well no words can describe that, nothing I can say will make it happen for anyone else. All I can do is to share the reality of it for me, and hope that someone will see and feel even just a fraction of the inspiration that I do. The inspiration, that word almost doesn't seem enough to say what I'm trying to say.


"You mean like the half of my life I spent trying very hard to believe?"

I don't doubt your efforts Tiassa, no in the least. But trying hard to believe what? Man made rules? Measuring up to the Religious standard? Doctrine? What about not trying so hard to do these things and just be who you are and talk to God? Did anyone ever tell you to do that? Or did they say you needed to attend confession twice a week say three hail Mary's and you sins would be absolved? Either that or your rotten little hide would suffer the eternal torment of hell fire? Death breeds death, deceit breeds deceit and contempt is the child of disillusion.

Its not the Jesus way, "I have come to give life and give it in abundance" "He who drinks of me shall never thirst again" "Rivers of living waters will flow from their innermost being" "I am the way the truth and the Life, no man come to the Father but by me".


"Does your religion have a mandate to go forth and bring the world to your God? It seems to me that Christianity does. Now, perhaps I'm utterly mistaken in that, but history whispers a few things in my ear at this moment, and I see the twinkling of an evangelical church."

My mandate is to live the word of God, to be salt and light. How that mandate is carried out sometimes makes me shudder. Yes I see the same twinkle, the history of the marching forth of "Gods Word" against the infidels.

I am simply called to let my light shine, how could I do otherwise in the light of what I have found? How I do it is a lifestyle choice and not an army, not a crusade, not a side show with flashing lights and loud speakers. My light shines by the way I choose to live before others, by my very actions and reactions, by my motives behind the works of charity that I may or may not perform, by the recognition that I may or may not demand for them. I let that light shine as best I can, how others see it and react to it is their choice, I simply try to inspire others to know the Living God.


"And what are you going to say when you're standing before him and he asks, "What the hell were you thinking?"

He's not going to ask that, it will simply be one of the following:

"Come in my good and faithful servant to what I have prepared for you"

or

"Begone from me for I never knew you", But Lord we did this in your name. But Lord we did that in your name. But Lord we did the other in your name. "If you did not do it to the least of these ones you did not do it to me" "Begone from me for I never knew you".

It kind of makes you stop and take stock of what you do and why.

"But Lord we lead the crusades against the infidels in righteous honour and under the banned of the church"

"But Lord we handed out tracts and preached and sang on the street corner".

"Well Lord I saw a man in the gutter, a person who society would consider the scum of the Earth, I didn't know if he was drunk or sick, I didn't know if he was a criminal or a weirdo but I took him in, cleaned him up and gave him a place to sleep that was safe and warm. No one saw what I did but you, and no one saw why I did it but you and the man from the gutter."

I'm outta time Tiassa, if I get the chance I'll post more.

Allcare

Tony H2o

Tony,

…please read between the lines and try to see the general message I am attempting to convey.

That is too much to ask in such a debate as this, especially when so much of our reasoning can often rest on the meaning and subtleties of individual words. I don’t think we have much choice but to assume you mean what you write. The differences between Christians and non-Christians is already very great, so I think you do need to be more precise.

Faith demands a high price but when your there, when you know beyond the shadow of a doubt the reality of it..............well no words can describe that, nothing I can say will make it happen for anyone else.

The price is too high, it requires relinquishing common sense, and denying the evidence we obtain from reason. But you may well be able to convince others who are also willing to accept self-delusion.

All I can do is to share the reality of it for me, and hope that someone will see and feel even just a fraction of the inspiration that I do. The inspiration, that word almost doesn't seem enough to say what I'm trying to say.

In other words you are simply here to preach and evangelize rather than debate, right?

What about not trying so hard to do these things and just be who you are and talk to God.

This is simply not a reasonable request. Without Christians being able to show any credible evidence that a god exists, then we may as well talk to fairies or leprechauns, all are in the same incredible and meaningless class.

My mandate is to live the word of God, to be salt and light. How that mandate is carried out sometimes makes me shudder. Yes I see the same twinkle, the history of the marching forth of "Gods Word" against the infidels.

Fortunately the fear and terrorism spread by Christianity is beginning to wear off and many silent infidels are beginning to think for themselves and are speaking out. This trend has been on a rapid and steady increase for the past few decades and there are now numerous atheist and freethinking organizations being created. Christian evangelism has launched the first strike, so be prepared for a long and bitter war. Without any meaningful evidence and with reason against you then you are doomed to lose – big time.

Cris

"You are saying that you're an agnostic??!! What about all those references to "man's law" vs. "God's law"? And how come I never hear you mention Buddha, yet somehow God is all over your posts? And what's this constant breeze of creation coming out of your corner in every debate on evolution? And how does your intolerance of gays fit into the "rainbow", Mr. diversity?? Either you are suffering from a multiple personality disorder, or you are a Christian so strung out on the hypocricy that you can't even get your own self-assessment straight!"

I'm being open minded. That is all.

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It's all very large.

[This message has been edited by Bowser (edited February 16, 2001).]

well, not trying to change anyones beleif or anything but god does exist, satan exists, there not just made up to scare us. If there was no god none of us would be here. Now im not one of those holy rolling, bible quoting, gospel singing, im better than you because i go to church kinda guy, but i belive in god. Beleiving is something is good it makes you feel like you always have something to hold onto. Just because you cant physically see god doesnt mean he doesnt exist, i mean you cant see wind but that doesnt mean it isnt there. thats just my opinion take it or leave it.

THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE

Hi xfilesfan,

If there was no god none of us would be here.

Except maybe if the universe is infinite and maybe life in this part of the universe evolved, as all the evidence suggests.

Beleiving is something is good it makes you feel like you always have something to hold onto.

Yup it’s a lot like a crutch that religions insist humans need because they think humans are incapable of thinking for themselves. But many people are finding that they can think for themselves and do not need artificial assistance, and they feel much better for it and can stand up straight again. Throw away the crutch of self-delusion and start living freely.

Just because you cant physically see god doesnt mean he doesnt exist, i mean you cant see wind but that doesnt mean it isnt there.

But we can feel the wind so we have some evidence that it exists. But gods are invisible and immaterial and silent. How is it that you know there is a god and I don’t? Do you have extra senses that I don’t posses? Something that doesn’t exist is also invisible, immaterial and silent. What is the difference between a god and something that doesn’t exist? How can you tell them apart?

THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE

Maybe, so let’s not jump to conclusions about whether gods exist or not until we have found the truth.

But have fun while you’re looking.
Cris



[This message has been edited by Cris (edited February 16, 2001).]

Okay,
perhaps I'm just more harsh than Cris, but I find Xfilesfan's arguments some of the most flimsy that I have ever seen.

My opinion is that faith is a bad thing, but using the argument that "faith is a good thing - therefore God exists" is ridiculous. World peace would be a good thing, but it sure as hell (excuse me) does not exist.

The whole wind argument is also ridiculous. As Cris rightly points out, wind is measurable, but no proof of God exists. The fact that something isn't measurable certainly does not influence me to believe that it exists. The presence of kryptonite on Earth cannot be measured, for instance. Because there isn't any.

The whole "we wouldn't exist without God" argument is particularly incisive however. If only someone had come out with this argument ten years ago I would never have become an atheist. How narrow-minded of me to blunder through life without noticing that I wouldn't be here if God hadn't fashioned Adam from clay. I feel so stupid. All atheists should be ashamed of ignoring this vital piece of Theist thought.

I think the most damning part of Xfilesfan's testimony is the fact that he is, without doubt, an overt X files fan. The only difference between the X files's tales of the supernatural and the bible's tales of the supernatural is that the X files are somewhat more plausible. And entertaining.

Ever a cynic,
Large Toad


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God does not exist.

I think the most damning part of Xfilesfan's testimony is the fact that he is, without doubt, an overt X files fan. The only difference between the X files's tales of the supernatural and the bible's tales of the supernatural is that the X files are somewhat more plausible. And entertaining.

LargeToad,

I was right there with you until you dissed the X-Files - the only show on TV worth watching! In fact, it's the only TV show I do watch.

To me, there's no comparison between the X-Files and the mind-numbing, soul-enslaving, misogynistic, racist and insular bible tales. Although they are both fiction, one is imaginative, thought-provoking and yes, very entertaining; the other was designed simply to bring a certain population under strict, Draconian control (although its influence has unfortunately been greatly expanded to include the entire world).

I might add that I was very surprised that someone with xfilesfan's religious beliefs would be a fan of the X-Files. Perhaps there's hope for him after all?

Emerald http://www.geko.net.au/~steves/anigif/xloop1.gif

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An ye harm none, do what ye will.

flimsy, yeah okay i agree with you. and sure i love the x-files i was just stating my opinion on the matter.

Emerald,

I just didn't figure you as an X files fan. I haven't watched that for some years now. In fact I can't think of any TV programme that captures my attention anymore - I must be getting old. :(

Take care
Cris


[This message has been edited by Cris (edited February 19, 2001).]

why didnt you picture me as an x-files fan.

Oh sorry xfilesfan, nothing personal its just that we haven't exchanged many posts while I have read a great deal from Emerald and alias Searcher.

Don't feel left out, just make lots of posts and in about a year I'll let you know if I can picture you as an X files fan. :D

Have fun.
Cris


[This message has been edited by Cris (edited February 19, 2001).]

xfilesfan,

Well, I guess I wouldn't have pegged you as an X-Files fan because, first and foremost, I pictured you as a Christian. Based on my own experiences with Christians, they seem to categorize everything as either good or evil - if it's good, it's from God/Jesus; if it's evil, it's from Sssaaaataaan. :eek:

Anyway, to determine whether a thing is good or evil, Christians usually turn to their bibles. The X-Files contains elements that are condemned in the bible, such as women who are independent, intelligent and successful, who can think for themselves, and might even possibly dare to - *gasp* - usurp the authority of men! :rolleyes:

Okay, it could be that I'm guilty of stereotyping, and if so, I apologize. Lately I've been bombarded with Fundamentalist Christian dogma from my mother and sister, who are putting in a particularly determined effort to save my wicked soul. Ugh! :mad:

The fact that you are an X-Files fan tells me you're not that far gone yet, so there's still hope for you. :)

Welcome to the board!

Emerald

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An ye harm none, do what ye will.

Cris,

On the whole, I agree with you about the TV issue. Whenever I lived alone, I lived without a TV by choice. You wouldn't believe the number of people who felt sorry for me and wanted to give me a TV! They were quite certain that no one in her right mind would live without a TV - deliberately!

But the X-Files is another breed of TV show altogether. When my husband and I went on vacation a few years back (May of '97, I think it was), we took a motorcycle trip to Area 51 (bet you wouldn't have guessed that one either, huh?). We were in Tonopah during the season finale, but the TV in our hotel room wouldn't work. So we walked down to a nearby bar that had a TV, and bought everyone at the bar a round of beers in exchange for letting us change the channel to watch the X-Files (although the reception was extremely snowy)!

So yeah, I guess you could say I'm an X-Files fan. :D

Emerald

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An ye harm none, do what ye will.

Emerald,

Awright, I can relate to that. But my time was in the 60s and the programme was Star Trek. Pretty dated now but back then it was radical.

I still watch most of the Star Treking stuff if it's on when I want to watch TV. Other than that Lexx and Farscape are kind of curious, unless there is something else to do.

You have my sympathies re Christian pressure from family. I have no such challenges, I have to come to exosci instead. And my 3 teenage daughters just accept what I discover and are quite eager to follow my lead. I just can't make them debate religious issues, they seem to see the subject as irrelevant, I guess I'm kinda proud of them for that.

Bye for now
Cris

PS. I never asked when we discussed this but are you indeed a Deist?

Tony--

When did I officially stop practicing Satanism, witchcraft, meditation, seances etc. Well Tiassa I'm surprised your asking considering I have posted this previously, but giving the benefit of the doubt that you may have missed it.

Now when did I last try these things? Officially, I stopped when I was eighteen, maybe seventeen. It's been a while, I admit, but I at least was there.

I have spoken before about beings of darkness that visited me, the shadowmen. I have spoken before about my ancestry and their involvement in occult, I have discussed these things and I have been a part of them, so I do know what the grass on the other side looks like feels like and tastes like.

I hold myself answered.

--Tiassa :cool:

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No, don't seek control, and the milk of heaven will flow. Why would you want to keep it from anyone? (Floater)

hey people i understand how you may of got the idea, but im not some 17 year old who goes to church every week and gets offended at curse words or whatever. i mean im also a wwf fan, i bet none of you pegged me as that either. But i beleive in god so as steve austin would say "thats the bottom line".

THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE

xfilesfan,

Who is Steve Austin?

Cris--

I think I saw Steve Austin on TV one night, late. He was wearing a leather jacket and parading around, shouting and carrying on, in his underwear.

Or that may have been Ron Jeremy.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

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No, don't seek control, and the milk of heaven will flow. Why would you want to keep it from anyone? (Floater)