Ive always wondered how the Christians on these forums answer to the old question " can God create a stone thats to heavy for him to lift?"

even if this has been discused here before, give me a refference or just sum up what the general conclusion was. thx

My answer, as a Christian: No, and this has no bearing on the omnipotence of God.

Yes he can because he is omnipotent.
No he can't because he is omnipotent.

The following statement is false.
The previous statement is true.

If God exists... He, or it, exists outside our universe...
and as creator, applied all the energy of our universe...

so no... Nothing can be made which is to heavy for God..(in our space)

but that does not include things outside our universe....
-MT

My answer, as a Christian: No, and this has no bearing on the omnipotence of God.

Your saying that God isnt omnipotent.. if he cant do something than he isnt God because a God could do absolutley anything, hence the word God

so no... Nothing can be made which is to heavy for God..(in our space)

but that does not include things outside our universe....
-MT.

why do i get the impression that you completley missed the point. if he couldnt create something ,at all, (no matter where he was) than he is not omnipotent.

and if he could infact create a stone to heavy for him to lift, wheter in or outside the universe, then that stone is in a sense more powerfull than he is and therefore he is not omnipotent

Please refer to the post made by Cris:

"The following statement is false.
The previous statement is true."

To ask the question "Can God create a rock that is too heavy for Himself to lift?" leads to a logical inconsistency. The question itself doesn't make sense. God can't do it, not because He isn't omnipotent, but because it isn't something that can be done. More specifically, it isn't a possible action. If it isn't a possible action, then it isn't an action, hence, it isn't something that can be done. To put it another way, you're asking God to do something for which there is no doing. You're asking God to do nothing. No, God can't do "nothing" as understood as Him doing something. Again, logical inconsistency. Only logical possibilities are possible, because only logical possibilities are possibly real. It's like asking, can a square circle exist? Well, "square circle" denotes no meaning. You might try to alter the idea itself and make it logical, but then you're actually talking about something other than a square circle. Logical impossibilities are meaningless. So the real question isn't "Can God make a rock bigger than He can lift?" the real question is "Can God perform logical impossibilities?" The answer to which is no, not because He isn't omnipotent, but because logical impossibilities are meaningless.

As I said, "No, and this has no bearing on God's omnipotence."

Why is it necessary for God to be omnipotent? Even slightly less than omnipotent is still impressive. In the bible, he can't seem to make people believe in them, preferring to destroy them for their disbelief instead.

My answer, as a Christian: No

I am quite sure some scientist could make a stone so heavy, that he could not lift it - and now you tell me , as a christian, that god can not do the same...

God must be really old and impotent these days .....

Science versus god: 1:0

Sure, a scientist could, because he's human and operates according to physical laws. God is neither human, nor is God bounded to the same physical limitations.

we can never know anything about what is outside our universe...

therefore.. the entire arguement is a waste of breath... even if interesting...

-MT

Quote moshe:
"If God exists... He, or it, exists outside our universe..."

* Says who?

How else could he of applied energy to make it?

-MT

What set of the big bang?

G-d did.

Was man around when god "created" the world - some must have been there to record it in the bible - otherwise it is only hearsay information from god ......

the bible was written by man and therefore only as reliable as man ......
we all know how reliable man are .....

Did God set of the Big Bang from where? Where was he at the time?

The main problem reside in the 1500 year old interpretation of Genesis...

where in Verse 2... it says. the earth was void and without form....

it doesnt say it existed... it literally says.. it didnt exist...

it only came into existance in verse 9......

thats the problem... we need to reinterpret Genesis... gesh.

-MT

Can God make a stone thats too heavy to lift? How stupid is that question. Heaven doesnt have the same phisical laws as Earth does.

In the bible, he can't seem to make people believe in them, preferring to destroy them for their disbelief instead.

If he had wanted us to believe in him, he wouldn't have given us free will. What he "wants" is that we choose to believe in him by our own free will. He couldn't just MAKE us believe in him since that would take away our free will.

Was man around when god "created" the world - some must have been there to record it in the bible - otherwise it is only hearsay information from god ......

God told Moses how he created the world, then Moses wrote it down. The real self of man-- God-- has always existed.

Did God set of the Big Bang from where?

There was no Big Bang.

there are somethings god (ofthe christians) cannot do; ex. cannot lie, cannot be unfaithful to his people...

They can lie if they wish though. Your above coment wasnt neccissary.

Present

Here is the answer.

-He created his son Jesus Christ who was not able to lift anything heavy, but the ego of humans.

Those who have faith do not believe in logic if it leads to a conclusion contrary to theit faith. It is as simple as that.

To the faithful god can make a rock too heavy for him to lift, but he is still all powerful becasue he could lift it if he really wanted to.

It is a variation on the question of what happens when an irresistable force meets an immovable object. To those with no faith, there can either be a universe which includes an irrestiable forec or a universe which includes an immovable object, but there cannot be a universe which contains both.

For those with faith, god can create a universe containing both an irresistable force and an immovable object. If they never meet there is no problem. If they do meet, god witll decide whihc one wins, but we mere mortals will never know the answer. There are many turths that we cannot know. It provides an easy explanation for all those difficult questions: "Only god knows the answer" is an explanation to any unanswerable question.

And think of it like this, us humans can create things we cannot carry, but we work out a way to carry it, such as trucks.

C7,

If he had wanted us to believe in him, he wouldn't have given us free will.Or more simply he could have introduced himself clearly and plainly. Free will or the lack of it is irrelevant to satisfy his desire.

What he "wants" is that we choose to believe in him by our own free will.Then as soon as he appears then we can choose to believe, right?

He couldn't just MAKE us believe in him since that would take away our free will.Nonsense. Simply introducing himself unambiguously wouldn’t remove our free will.

God told Moses how he created the world, then Moses wrote it down.No direct witnesses then? Any video of God talking with Moses? Who witnessed that conversation? No one, right? Why should we believe Moses?

Yeah cris, what you say makes sence,

But if you read the bible, our life on Eath is a test of faith, if he showed himself he may aswell of just kept us in Heaven. It amazes me how atheist can be so ignorant. :rolleyes:

The judeao-christian god's omnipotence does have its limits.

The notion of "Can a god make a rock so big it cannot move it." is not illogical coz the notion is based on how limited humans are. Humans can make something so big they cannot move it, such as a 3 bedroom house.

Check out how really weak the god Jehovah was in Judges 1:19, "And the Lord was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but COULD NOT drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron."

Of course the real limit of the god's omnipotence is shown in the inability of said god to present absolutely convincing evidence as to its existance for everyone.

http://www.gotquestions.org/God-cannot.html

Or, more specifically;

http://www.gotquestions.org/God-rock-heavy-lift.html

Yup. :)

This might be of some interest, too! (http://www.holysmoke.org/hs.htm)

I read somewhere on that site, that he said our Bible says we have to prove all things. It doesn't, it says we have to test all things, which we have. Well me anyway.

That site makes no point, it just brings as back to the start of this argument, remember that God doesnt have our physical laws, and he is not in this universe.

For people who say God can't be real because he cant do all things, well think of it like this. God can't sin, as the Bible stats, because sinning is actually turning away from God/not following his rules. Why would God turn away from himself? And more importantly, this stone question is rubbish, he doesnt have our physical laws. Even if he did, you don't know what hes capable of.

If he had wanted us to believe in him, he wouldn't have given us free will. What he "wants" is that we choose to believe in him by our own free will. He couldn't just MAKE us believe in him since that would take away our free will.
If God was omnipotent, he could give us free will AND make everyone believe in Him.

Or, if he can't do this, he must not be omnipotent.

spidergoat,

omnipotency doesn't mean that you can create illogical things like "triangular squares". but indeed, god gave us free will, and he will also make us believe in him again, but not instantly! he constantly pulls us to himself and we can by our free will reject him, who is our true self.

c7ityi -

he will also make us believe in him again, but not instantly! he constantly pulls us to himself and we can by our free will reject himHow can we not believe when we have been made to believe? Your posts appear asinine and self contradictory.

Kat

I thought I would dust off this old thread to add my reply, "Yes," to the original question.

Oh! man you must of been bored!

Here is a good link on that argument and why is not a good idea for atheist to use it;

http://www.geocities.com/inquisitive79/heavyrock.html

If he had wanted us to believe in him, he wouldn't have given us free will. What he "wants" is that we choose to believe in him by our own free will. He couldn't just MAKE us believe in him since that would take away our free will.
.
WHEN exactly ,did God appointed you as its spokeperson???

Scopius we go many of these type of theists around here. For a being who is supposedly "unknowable" there sure as hell lots of advocates of his character, word or manner. ;)

It is silly and a waste of time to apply logic to theological issues, which is what the rock paradox attempts to do. Furthermore, the rock paradox is not even based on proper formal logic.

Faith is essentially a mind set that believes in the absence of supporting evidence and in spite of evidence (if any) to the contrary. This is a view that the theist is proud of.

A theist's axioms are such that belief in god is mandatory, probably due to its being one of the axioms of their system. They only apply the principles of logic when they think it supports their view.

I happen to be an atheist, but would not consider trying to use logic to convince a theist of my point of view.

Just as I consider it to be silly and a waste of my time to use logic to support my view, I consider it even sillier (actually irrational) for a theist to use logic to support his point of view.Most theists seem to be ignorant of the basic concepts of logic & embarrass themselves when they attempt to use it.


Logic is based on axioms accepted as self evident truths. The theist and the atheist have fundamentally different axioms on which they base their point of view. With different axioms, they arrive at different conclusions consistent with their axioms, assuming that either has a logical basis for his belief system.

Actually very few (if any) theists and a minority of atheists have any idea of the basic concepts of logic and do not have a logical basis for their view. Those in either camp with a knowledge of logic seldom (if ever) try to use logic to support their view.I seldom argue with theists about their belief in god (except when they attempt to use logic), although I often argue with their behavior and ethics. It is a waste of my time to argue about the existence of god. Furthermore, the theist belief system makes them comfortable with their mortality, although it does not seem to do much for their code of ethics.. If I managed to convince a theist that his view was wrong (not likely), I might create a very unhappy person with no mechanism to cope with his mortality. Furthermore, such a person might become a damned psychopath without his god given commandments.

BTW: The rock argument is basically fallacious. It is a variant of the theme expressed by the question: “What happens when an irresistible force meets an immovable object?” The obvious answer to this question is: “You can either have a universe with an irresistible force or a universe with an immovable object. You cannot have a universe with both.” The paradox requires some improper definitions and/or assumptions hidden by natural language semantics, which are not designed to be the language of logic.

Similarly, the Rock paradox is a matter of improper definitions and assumptions. Assuming that god exists, he could create a rock that he could lift if he wanted to, and could not lift if he had other issues on his mind. Perhaps he could create a rock which he could not lift on Mondays, Wednesdays & Fridays but could lift on other days.

Actually very few (if any) theists and a minority of atheists have any idea of the basic concepts of logic and do not have a logical basis for their view.

I can assure you that some theists do have an idea of the basic concepts of logic.

The Paradox of the Stone is not a matter of improper definitions and assumptions but rather of sloppy proof technique. If approached rigorously, the “paradox” disappears and no contradiction presents.

DRR: I will accept your assurance, although it is my belief that the theists you refer to do not try to use logic to prove the existence of god. I can assure you that some theists do have an idea of the basic concepts of logic.I can assure you that it has been my experience that damn few Theists have either knowledge or respect for logic. This view is supported by the large number who try to use logic to prove the existence of god. Similarly, atheists who try to use logic to disprove his existence show their ignorance of logic.

To ask the question "Can God create a rock that is too heavy for Himself to lift?" leads to a logical inconsistency. The question itself doesn't make sense. Is this correct: God is ominipotent and omniscient?

Q:
Can you do something God is not capable of doing?

I can assure you that it has been my experience that damn few Theists have either knowledge or respect for logic.

I guess it depends on whom you know. My experience differs, but then I know a great number of logicians. It may be the case that science tends to attract skeptics while logic tends to attract mystics. Mathematical logic is not known as the “theology of mathematics” for nothing.

I hope we can agree that each of our postions is held by a large number of people who are far smarter and who understand logic far better than both of us.

Here's another question:

Can God kill himself?

Or can any spirit/soul in the "heaven" realm kill themselves for that matter?

Can God kill himself?
Yes.

If God dies, do we all die?

beyondtimeandspace, well?

Yes.
Perhaps he already did so, and no-one realises it.

The following seems silly to me.It may be the case that science tends to attract skeptics while logic tends to attract mystics.What do mystics use logic for when they typically rely on anecdotal evidence tio support their views?

Michael, realize the time this thread was started, Beyond is a friend of mine, he doesn't frequent Sciforums that often.

What do mystics use logic for when they typically rely on anecdotal evidence tio support their views?

The mystics you know may have no use for logic but I am speaking of the people who gravitate toward mathematical logic. The field seems to attract these types for whatever reason. Gödel, himself, could be described as a mystic.

If God dies, do we all die?

*************
M*W: No, because we're still here. god's not.

Ive always wondered how the Christians on these forums answer to the old question " can God create a stone thats to heavy for him to lift?"

Here's one answer: If God creates the stone then god would create it in the right place!

Original question: Can God create a stone he can't lift?

Alternate Question: Can a human lift something from the spiritual realm, assuming one exists?