If there is a God(Denomination not important) would he/she it encourage free thought?
This one, I wasn't sure where to put it. But I would really like the free thinkers ideas on this one not the bible quoters.
Why give us the ability to think for ourselves if you just want a bunch of mindless idiots to praise you? (God that is)

Well of course God would encourage free thinking...because if He existed, all thought would be in the context of Him, and the most logical and effective thinking would always make obvious His reality...

Sadly that is not the case here...for that reason I don't think the God we thought of encourages free thinking. It's not our fault we created a view of the world that was a bit too secure in the arrogancy of its beliefs...but it's just gotten outdated. we have a vision for the future today that can work better in society and we should seize the oppurtunity to modernize our vuew of the world...of course the most basic human values should be kept, but God can be put into a better context today with more relevant ideas.

God cannot possibly have encouraged free thought...because then we woul have questioned its actions and motives. Hm?

Remember the story of adam and eve, they ate the apple because they wanted to be smart like god, so they ended up thinking freely and discovering. So my point - ofcoarse he supports free thinking, isnt that the point??

Of course God likes us to think freely. But you know what He loves even more? For us to come and ask Him.

Good question! I would think just the opposite. Without free thought; if a God truely wanted worship and homage and nothing else then intellegent questioning would get in the way of that.

Well of course God would encourage free thinking...because if He existed, all thought would be in the context of Him, and the most logical and effective thinking would always make obvious His reality...

The problem here is, you are of course, assuming that a deity would behave logically. Furthermore, you assume that the dieties' logic would be similar to our own human logic.
Perhaps it would be in the god's best interest (assuming it cared) to not promote free thought.....

That is concisely my point.

"If there is a God(Denomination not important) would he/she it encourage free thought?"

As if there is any criterion of deciding amongst the false gods. (That's all of them plus one.;) ) Yes, of course God would support free thought, he loves his children and wants them to grow in knowledge. No, of course God despises free thought, his children must have faith in him. This is the realm of counterfactuall, there is no right answer.

Elbaz said, much to my surprise:
"Remember the story of adam and eve, they ate the apple because they wanted to be smart like god, so they ended up thinking freely and discovering. So my point - of coarse he supports free thinking, isnt that the point??"

The point of the story, in it's current biblical form (it has, of course, evolved over the years) is that the forbidden fruit was produced by the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Adam was punished because he was seeking for wisdom outside of God. God, as we all know, punishes not only our hapless hero and heroin but condemns all of humanity to a world with suffering and misery.

But on to more serious matters. How many angels can stand on the head of a pin? How many can dance? Is dance an ineffable power that only spritual creatures that posess?

Regards,
Synaesthesia
"Reductionism is a dirty word, and a kind of 'holistier than thou' self-righteousness has become fashionable." -Richard Dawkins

It is the humans who discourage free thought...sometimes, in the name of God!

Free thought is often the anti-thesis of faith, so, by default, God could not have encourage free thought (for he requires blind faith, despite the many disasters that occur every year, we apparently have to continue to believe in him; "he is testing our faith", apparently).

Bull.

Thanks for the replies
Now if we were created by God in his own image(I think that's right?) and he encourages free thought, how could it be wrong to question him/her, it? The way I see it an all powerful being that wanted mindless followers would have ended everything in the great flood and started over, or would something like that be admitting that even he/she, it is a screw up and makes mistakes.(Trust me I KNOW this is getting whacky:rolleyes: )
Knowing God is not perfect (ouch! Gonna' hear it for that one.) do you think it's possible that God could possibly trying to understand his own creation, a live and learn type of thing. Just because he/she, it has the power to create or destroy doesn't make he/she, it any smarter then any of us. Because we all ready know he/she, it makes mistakes.(The flood thingy)
If I where an arrogant deity with a chip on my shoulder and I read, say what I am writing right now this post would not get finished. I would just knock off the poor bastard and move on to the next poor bastard in line. And trust me the line is long.
O.K. How about this think of God as your father(really as like your father) proud of your accomplishment, proud to say hey look at my son/daughter how smart he/she is all ready smarter then me, gonna' be a great person some day. The child would love their father but not worship him. So in this frame of mind, the father would never condemn the child to a life in hell because the child never worshipped him. Then the child becomes a professional athlete gets on TV and the first thing the child says as the camera pass's by is "Hi Mom!" The father still won't send the child to hell. Now that's a loving father as far as I remember. Just a thought or two. (NO I DID NOT START SMOKING POT:D) Just couldn't stop punching keys.:rolleyes: :D :D
I think my heads going to explode, sorry if this babble doesn't make senes.

Hey Patman, I think it may be best if you lose the Christian stereotypes.

Now if we were created by God in his own image(I think that's right?) and he encourages free thought, how could it be wrong to question him/her, it?

Who's saying it is wrong. People don't like quoting the bible so I will let them do the work by reading Isaiah and finding out.

The way I see it an all powerful being that wanted mindless followers would have ended everything in the great flood and started over, or would something like that be admitting that even he/she, it is a screw up and makes mistakes.(Trust me I KNOW this is getting whacky )

God flooded the Earth because Mankind was consumed with evil. This isn't God's fault, we are the ones whom He gave thought to and we chose evil. I wouldn't like to have lived in the time just before the flood. You would get raped, thieved, murdered, coveted. Not a nice place at all. So if people complain about today think twice before blaming God, it is humans who are evil. and yet it is those same people who complain about how God could let this place be so evil,think that God was evil for flooding the place to get rid of evil. A bit of a catch 22 lose-lose situation?

If I where an arrogant deity with a chip on my shoulder and I read, say what I am writing right now this post would not get finished.

Again, Christian stereotype. But you being able to finish this post would tell you that God is not as you say.

O.K. How about this think of God as your father(really as like your father) proud of your accomplishment, proud to say hey look at my son/daughter how smart he/she is all ready smarter then me, gonna' be a great person some day. The child would love their father but not worship him.

If God is all ready all powerful why would He need an ego trip. My logic says if you can not be any more powerful, you have no need for an ego. People only have ego's because they want other people to think of them as better than they really are. Comes out of a low self esteem I guess?

God doesn't feed off of human worship if thats what you're thinking? He wants us to worship Him by our own free will which He so gracefully gave us.

I am hoping this is making sense

Thanks

The words "god" and "freethought" should never be uttered in the same sentence. Humans need god like fish need a bicycle.

Although I am a devout atheist, I disagree with your statement, for without the placebo that is God, many, many people in the world would not be able to survive (in the literal and figurative sense). The belief that God exists instils faith and confidence in the hearts of many, and that is essential for their success.

Besides, what a shitty and shallow world it would be without the daily struggle of GOD and science? Perhaps the fish does need a bicycle, eh?

My view on the Adam & Eve mythos:

First there were the animal mind. Man apes. No conscious thought, no moral code just the free spirit of immediate life in the moment. The apple symbolizes individual consciousness. Once that spark of ego is devoured the eden is in effect ruined by man who obtains the ability to manipulate and plan ahead. Morality is something that emerges once a being is able to foresee consequenses to actions.

Free will is unavailable before there is consciousness and questioning of the way things are. Before one is able to mentally digest the world, experience things and recall them afterwards, one has no ability to question anything.

If there is a god, he/she made man with the tools to become conscious. The choice to become so was mans, but man was not able to grasp the consequense before it was too late.

What we are now is the result of a man ape trying to get control over the situation. Consciousness is not easy on the primate but we´ll get there.

Just one way to think of it. Not my truth :)

Yes, Ankit, perhaps I was a little too harsh. Sometimes I forget how much pain and suffering there is on this beautiful and savage planet. If religion can offer someone respite from unbearable pain, then I have absolutely no right to assault their beliefs. I really do love people and I should stop trying to rip the bandages off of hurting souls so that I can throw more salt into the wound. I am not cruel, but I can sometimes be stooopid. I have often lamented the fact that truth is so often a casualty of religion, that I never really pondered the fact that truth is often the pain that religion attempts subdue. I have never really had anything against the average believer, just those who would oppress in the name of religion. And I mean oppression in all forms including thought. I would be happy with a simple mutual tolerance between those who believe in god and practice religion and those who do not. I do despise being judged because I choose to endure the pain that truth can and sometimes does provide rather than shelter myself from it using religion. What can I say? Watch the MATRIX. It states what I am saying quite better than I can.

Or should it be God and free will? :confused:

Anyway, since we are God we have one collective soul besides our individual souls. The collective thought-pool is made up by all the individual thoughts together. And the individual thoughts are also drawn from the collective thought-pool. So there is a spiral that never ends. :cool:

Then another discussion is that old one about free will and destiny and my thought on that is this: life (free will+heart=destiny) :p

That we have a destiny, or a prefered destination in life, and to get there we must use our free will and follow our hearts. ;)




:)

The Matrix? I remember saying that to someone right here on SciForums...I guess great minds think alike. Anyhoo, on the subject of free thought & God, let me attempt to finish this by saying that, by default, if free thought occurred for more than a millennia within humans, the concept of God would be obfuscated and eventually eradicated; but for the will of righteous men in the shroud of blind faith (very poetic, I know).

Religious men (oh, ok, men and women) have formed the basis of today's world...they were our philosophers, who, in turn, were our first mathematicians and scientists (which is outrageously ironic when you consider today's battle of science vs religion). Damn it...that means we can't really fault the religious people...they gave us a lot. It IS ironic when you consider that a great proportion of the world's scientists/mathematicians were theists (Einstein, I believe).

That's all I hav to say for now.

God Bless.

Being an arrogant bastard, I must say that mathematics can solve a lot:

(to Bebelina)

I almost agree with your thesis, maybe you could say:

free thought = free will, then "heart + free thought = destiny".
But what if "free thought = free will + intelligence ", or
" destiny = heart + free will + intelligence", assuming we have any of those.

Then, intelligence = talent/limitation, so destiny=

"heart + free will/thought + talent/limitation". But what is "heart"?

Heart (the most complex, philosophically, biologically and psychologically), surely = courage + mental strength + composure all over fear?

Therefore, destiny = courage + mental strength + composure all over fear + free will(or thought) + talent/limitation.

There we have it, we can calculate someone's destiny (!) using my intrinsic model...although I am kind of hoping not (by assigning values to all).


Thank you.

P.S. Somebody's probably going to post a reply saying: "Ankit, you're right...you ARE an arrogant bastard."

You obviously are starting a long conversation. But I would say in response that, if there is a God, he would encourage free thought. That is where I separate myself from many religions.

All God would want is that you are GOOD.

In your calculation I´d rather put in:
Heart= courage (talent & mental strength) - fear (limitation)

Destiny = Heart + Love

Love (the full basin of energy which multiplies itself upon distribution :))

Living without heart is living without destiny.
Living without love is living without destiny.

In fact one lives as a nonplayingcharacter. A puppet :)

And no, I don´t really find you arrogant :)

Free will is options. These options set ones path within a closed system.
Eventually one comes upon the last option which is entering a nodepoint.
The option here is enter, or do not enter.

Not entering is going backwards to fully explore the system one has occupied all along. Entering is moving into the next level, which ultimately is the last option not tried.
The next level is therefore destiny. Free will is just the motions one takes during the journey. The destination is preset :)

Wow, groovy :D

Yes, that was really arrogant of you, Ankit...:rolleyes: ...;)

With heart I mean love, and with love in this particular aspect I mean what you feel is right, what your soul wishes you to do, the original feeling of having a meaning and purpose that you were born with, what makes you curious of things.... what you feel is GOOD. :p

I believe that we have been given free will to be able to follow our hearts in order to reach our destiny. :)

But that wasn´t so far away from what you had figured out ....:)

As an experiment though, just to amuse us all, why don´t you try to calculate your own destiny with that equation and tell us the result, and then time will tell if it was right. :p

And MuliBoy, yes that was GROOVY....as always. :D

Well, seemingly, as per our arrangement, I have been misunderstood, misdirected and missed almost completely. The following points are vital:

1. At no point did I say that you could calculate your destiny using whatever equation :p , just that you could if you wanted to, but that it would be bull. In fact, I said:

"I almost agree with your thesis, maybe you could say:"

So I was merely trying to augment Bebelina's interesting idea(s).

2. What is this? Love? Has someone mentioned love? Oh dear...I can't really comment, because, in all my 16.5 years, I have come close to it, but, with the exception of my writing and music, I haven't actually "fallen" in love (not with a person, anyways).

3. Who here is qualified to comment on love? (I think he/she would be over the age of 35)

4. I could comment on love, but I don't have weeks to while away (cos that's what it would take, I think) at the mo', I've just started college (and it's a bi-atch).

So, reply, and in time, I will misunderstand, misdirect and miss you as per our arrangement.
:cool: :p :D

Well Ankit , I´m so sorry that you haven´t had the pleasure to experience it yet, but it will come to you. :p
But I really didn´t mean the love, or the process of falling in love with other persons, but the universal love . The energy that is the essence of life. The will that the energy has to exist.

I was just kidding when I said that you would calculate your destiny, of course nobody can´t, but it would just be fun to know what the calculation would tell. :D

Good luck with your studies though. :) I´m also studying, at Stockholm University, theoretical philosophy and just made a test today and I am very relieved that it went well, or it felt like that anyway....:)

And don´t listen to anything that MuliBoy says, he´s evil and will only try to deceive you! :D ...;)

I love humanity so much I could almost cry ... It's just the people I hate!

Yup, used love in the same meaning as Bebelina put forth. When you "fall" in love, remember not to swim. Float :)

And the word "hate"... trying to eradicate it from my vocabulary. A word to harsh to use in any circumstance. Pure malice and destructiveness.

smurf :)

What does love has to do with free thought ?

Since love is the driving energy in all life, and therefore thought too. "Bad" thoughts are just manifestations of a feeling of fear, that is however also a very compassionate, but harsh way to learn. But sometimes neccesary for those who are unwilling to learn through love. :)

It is indeed remarkably, Bebelina, that you've found something to believe in with such strenght. After all, we are nothing if we don't have faith, one way or the other.
The point - in my previous reply - was that too often love makes us exaggerate/underestimate the nature of things (therefore love doesn't have much to do with FREE will...). Many people are not that innocent and they will hurt you if you let them. They don't believe in love the way you do... this couldn't lead to anything good.
Are you willing to make THAT sacrifice?

So much all of have said that I do not know where to start. However I guess I can just pick it up, where the thoughts of universal LOVE come in.

The question that comes to mind, is......is "Love" more than some mystical or chemical reaction in our brains? I would assume from the replies that we should believe it is.

I LOVE that idea, I really do because I have felt it, as it seems some of you have. I am not talking about the love of ONE to another, I am talking about the Love of ALL. The love of one to another is a result of a focused compilation of the Universal LOVE that we ALL have building inside of us. We find someone to "take it out on" so to speak, because we need to release it.... and THAT is a beautiful thing. OF course sometimes the Other may not want all of that love energy.......and our hearts get broken.

Love is not a mystical imaginary force, it is an ever builiding, fighting presence that is sometimes difficult for some to discern.

You get what you give, always. Not that you are nice to your neighbour, and then we he doesn´t hear you talk behind his back, you still expect him to be nice back to you. It´s the honest intention that matters.
Twilight, what you are talking about is similar to the warfaring countries weapon strategies. It´s all fear. You can chose to be frightened and only concern about your own well-being in fear of getting hurt. But you can also chose to trust people to be good. Then again, what you give is what you get. :)
But there are so many different situations involving different people, with different karmic purposes for their physical lives and evolution of their souls. So no rule applies to all.
Except for love, the universal love that is the source of all life, not the everyday infatuation between and among genders.
Which of course is also very important and one of the true treasures of this physical existence. But love as a force fighting for "Good" , is my meaning of the word in this context.
There is no sacrifice to be made but to give up fear. Are YOU willing to do that, to gain a more harmonious physical experience? :)
Worry is fear. Anger is fear. Hatred is fear. Jelousy is fear. Greed is fear.
I think you get the point by now....;)
If one person lets go of fear, then others will follow as a result. And that is what is happening now. People are waking up and seeing the physical reality as for what it is, a learning ground. Which can be a pleasant or non-pleasant experience, depending on how we chose to interact with it. What intention we have.
Free will is all you have. That is the point. Will you chose to have a loving intention, or a fearful? Free will is the link between your heart and your destiny.

I have a feeling now that a question regarding wether children that are starving to death, sick people or poor people can be considered to have free will, or? ;)

But I can answer that later, if you are interested and if you can´t come up with the answer yourselves. :)

No answers are needed, 10x. Don't loose your time with ppl from the 3rd world any more.
End of discussion.

I have a feeling that you became angry with my reply.
Why is that?
What is your answer? To everything?

I believe "God" is a generic name for whatever we believe in. But if we stop and think a bit, we realise that all those things we believe in reduce to just one... you called it "Love", I call it "Evolution" and so on.

From this point of view, I think that "God" encourages free thought because He\She\It is a result of our thinking.

That's all.

Bebelina,

I have read through your latest longer reply and I must say that, in many ways we are on the same path in regards to (to drastically shorten the topic) "Love"

However, I am at a bit of a loss when you say 'if we need any other answers because we do not know ourselves, you will answer it for us.

I love to have these discussions, however please keep an open mind, Bebelina, truly we all have beliefs and feelings, however if we begin to presume we have a definative answer, we are putting ourselves above what is.....to great for us to really understand.

You mention Fear as something that is a standard reason for people to lack love or run from it so to speak. To some degree I would agree with you, however, don;t you think that maybe some are not afraid, they just do not know "how to love" or they do not need to love, they might have no use for it.

It would be nice to teach someone how to love, but some just do not want to. ................ whether it be to someone else or to existance.

I really wish I was better in explaining my thoughts in words that are also understandable for others. But For "Gods/he/she/it/evolution/love/Piccachu`s" sake, I´m from....SWEDEN!!! :D

Twilight, I respect your belief. My belief is that "whatever it`s name is" is the energy that we all consist of. Our collective consciousness, not just human, but the Earthly, planetary, universal consciousness too. The consciousness and energy of all that is. And all that is , is ( in my opinion) not only built up by human thoughts alone, they are a minority in the creative process, because we are so largerly outnumbered by other forms of existance. But nevertheless, very important, and have access to the consciousness of all that is, if we WANT it.
But then , I´m only human, so what do I really know?
Everything or nothing, can it be both? ;)

Teerum, what I meant by my last statement, that if you are interesting in knowing I will tell you, or something like that. Was strictly about the eventual misunderstanding about the existence of starvation, war and other malices.
And what I will offer is of course nothing but my opinion, as always. I don´t claim to know the truth about everything, that would be baaad. Unless when I´m joking, but then I think I do it so obviously that it´s hard to miss. :p
But I´m always willing to give my best guess! :D

Abot love and fear then, as the two major feelings and opposites in the human consciousness.
Those who claim to have no use for love are those who needs it the very most, don´t you think? They are very insecure and afraid on the inside and puts up a hard fasade to try to cover it. But the harder and the more well polished the fasade is, the more obvious the longing for love becomes.
So how can one bring more love to the world? Start with yourself and examine your intentions within the world. And be nice to the angry people, because they need it! Then you would teach them how to love, if they have forgotten what it means.

And hug and tickle strangers! :D

...wars, illnesses and other manifestations of love and fear.

First, can fear be a manifestation of love? It´s like asking if all is good, then why do "bad" exist? To remind us of what good is.

The people that are acting out fear in shape of wars, for example , are doing so on a higher soul level, to teach us about compassion. The same goes for those children who are starving to death, or being beaten to death and all the other horrible acts you can imagine, are to teach us about compassion and love. The physical world is physical and what takes place here leaves physical marks upon our physical bodies as upon our non-physical souls.

To care, to help others, to love. Many are sacrifying their physical bodies to let us become aware of this. And how we become aware is to within the physical world try to help, and within our minds have an intention to love and help, even when physically not being able to do so.

And of course there are also individual purposes within the collective. The starving child may have been a rich selfish bastard in a previous life, and this is karma doing its job. But why does karma exist? To teach us the effects of our lives. So by becoming the starving child, that soul gains another perspective of existence that it previously lacked. And even better, if others become aware of this child and its situation, they can gain a very positive experience by helping it. Which will also reflect itslef on that souls karma in a positive way.

And the warrior will always become the victim.

:)

Some people need 2 years to learn how to talk and more than 50 to learn when to shut up.
But again... what do I know? I'm only human, no? Maybe Piccachu would understand you better.

Should I take this as you didn´t understand one word of what I was saying? :confused:

Bebelina,

Thanks for responding, I did not mean to sound negative, I just like to meet on equal grounds.

I appreciate your comments and observations regarding Karma and past lives and why you may feel a "life" acts out in different ways to reach another level or to express a feeling.

I must say that as I write in response, I suspect I may sound like I am simplifying your intentions, however I do so on purpose because ....... one thing I truly believe is that often WE Humans tend to complicate matters so much that we lose touch with the very basic truth of existence.

I cannot begin to decipher your analogies of War.......... I have to strongly disagree with you regarding what we are supposed to learn from someone who commits acts of war against innocent people. I stray from ideals to explain this: The Taliban, are against everything the USA stands for, they are angry because we disrespectfully desecrated their land and their beliefs, I HAVE compassion for them in that regard. However, I will never let the Taliban or anyone else infringe on MY way of life or my beliefs, I will leave them alone, but if they antagonize me or kill my brothers, they WILL be eliminated. NOW, let me move back to symbolism, You mention FEAR and LOVE often, but I am not sure I have heard you raise "EVIL" as a factor. Here is where I simplify existence. I believe on Good and Evil. It comes in many forms and effects our every day lives......I am GOOD and I express my love for others and my love for being Good. I know have known many people in my life who I have taught Goodness and love to, However, I also know that there are those who, no matter how much you try and express compassion and caring or try to teach about being good........they will throw it back in your face over and over and over, there are lost souls in this world Bebelina, souls that are not meant to be taught compassion or love.

My heart bleeds for all children that are effected by this as well, like the children of Afghanistan, who are taught to HATE from a young age. If I could I would rescue them and teach them goodness and compassion, but that is just a dream.

It scares me that my message doesn´t seem to come across, no matter how many times I try to explain it.
Can anybody else just respond if you get it or not? You don´t have to agree, just let me know that you understand at least. :)

So Teerum, good and evil is the same as love and fear. Evil is just a very poor disguise for fear. If you really get to know someone you consider to be evil, you will very soon discover how frightened that person really is. Maybe he/she had a traumatic childhood that made this person believe that this is how everybody is supposed to behave against eachother. And if you then add adrenalin and sexual hormones running wild ( as in teenagers), then the mixture can come off as evil. It´s just lack of knowledge, lack of emotional awareness and lack of self awareness.
There are no lost souls, there is a plan for every soul, which is compassionate and good, no matter how confused and evil it may seem from the outside beholder.

War again then, I know this is a very sensitive issue right now, but we must talk about it still. How else can we learn? If we get killed? Have our homes ruined? Our country bombed? I think you get the message....
The point is that we realize that violence, however justified it may feel at the moment, is wrong and will only lead to MORE violence, ALWAYS!
Or else the insanity of war will never end until we are ALL dead.
And then, we will have learned however, but to what price? The death of humanity.

:)

Should I take this as you didn´t understand one word of what I was saying?
But, Bebelina, haven't you allways ...?:((((((
Where is the compassion here, which you said that was so important?
Back to lost souls, how do you know you are in front of one, if you are not willing to understant it, you just intend to argue with it? One will answer you the same way you answered it (or anyway, this is the first impulse). If you show sarcasm, you may get sarcasm back and then is easy to clasify one to be a lost soul.
One should not start listening to others from behind a wall of prejudices... That person should listen to whatever others have to say and only after that report that to the personal experience.

Bebelina,

Once again I can appreciate and respect what you believe .... and having an open mind as I do, I can also accept that ALL is good, just some masked by Fear in the form of evil.

However, to stray from symbolism, are you saying that we should not be bombing the Taliban?

Lets get into this and allow me to state how I explain to people who are anti-war why we NEED to Eliminate this EVIL from the world.

One day someone walks up to you and punches you in the face, you fall, you get up and ask why they did that.....then they hit you again. You get up and tell them NOT to do that or you will call the cops.......but they are no cops........and they hit you again.

and they keep on hitting you until you are DEAD. Now you WILL really find out the answers to existance.

You get my point, I love the idea that you want to teach the world how to love and be compassionate, knowing that deep down everyone is good.....but in the process you WILL get killed, if you don't fight back.

Richard Gere and all those anti war liberals are WRONG.....we cannot sit back and keep taking it on the chin,......or we are done for and all that will be left is an oppressed society with no freedom to ever express love or compassion again.

answer back.

I do believe that we can become a peaceful society/humanity. And that we should definitely not bomb ANYONE!
I don´t know anything about Richard Gere and his following, so I can´t really comment on that. But I stand by my opinion that non-violence is the solution, because nothing else can be. I don´t know what more to say really...:)
We create our own karma.

Twilight, so do you. :)
There was no sarcasm whatsoever in my question. If you look back at your own posts however, there you WILL find it , and beyond. So maybe you are seeing sarcasms in my posts, were there is non intended, because you are reluctant to see that in your own? Just a thought. :)

But then, yes sometimes I am sarcastic too but in a very obvious and joking manner, not degrading. :) I am no big fan of sarcasm, it is only insults in a nicer package.

In a perfect dream world Bebelina you would be correct. but you do not seem to understand what is at stake here, do you realize that if we did not fight for our freedom during WW2, you and I would probably not be having this conversation.

We would not be allowed, by the rules of oppression.

I do not mean to be sarcastic myself, but I am glad you are not running the world.

I can imagine that would scare you! :D

But if we had let Hitler do his thing, I still believe we would have this conversation. Because people knew it was wrong, and because of that nobody would continue to work for him in the end. Or I shouldn´t say "let him" , we should of course have protested and tried to protect people from his madness, but without violence. But then, history is history, and was meant to be, for us to learn from, otherwise it would not be.
And what do we learn? That war is good? I think what we were supposed to learn is that violence is not preferable. We can have a peaceful solution, but the learning process within the physical reality is very slow. But still, we have come a very long way from WW2, dont you think? Were people even having these kind of discussions then? Was a peaceful solution even an option in peoples minds? Now it is, and that is progress! :)

I have to tell you Bebelina, you sound like a really nice person, I mean that from the heart. I really like your disposition, I may not agree with what you believe but that is besides the point.

Anyway, I am sorry dear, but if you think you could have changed Hitler, by showing him compassion and love.......you are very pure, but also naive.

I wish I could help you understand better, but you will have to trust me.

What else can we debate on??? How abouit the abortion issue? comon I am liking this.

Then I would have changed him and showed him love and compassion and encouraged his artistic talents. Because he was damaged by his parents throughout his whole childhood, which made him the monster he finally became. But that was also his destiny. And it was the destiny of humanity to experience his madness too. It was such a major event in our history that probably nothing could have stopped it from the outside.

About abortion then, what do you think? Right or wrong?

But I´m warning you, my opinion of abortion will probably seem as strange to you as my opinion on other subjects. :D

Nothing seems strange to be Bebelina, I love to hear different opinions......................

Here is mine.......Abortion is one of the most disgusting acts and crimes against nature there is, it goes against ALL we are and strikes at the heart of our existance........HOWEVER,

I do not feel any Governmnet should be dictaing morality. That is why there is free will..........I feel it should be controlled and people need to change there disposition regarding it......I cannot stand these women that SAY......I have the right to do whatever I want to my own body.......well guess what........this is NOT your own body......it is someone elses.....all the pro-choice people do is remove the moral variable from the argument and to them that makes it OK..........

There is much more I can say..........but YOU GO........

Mike........(oh yea....thats my real name, it aint Teerum)

You have a very strong opinion about this.

Here´s mine:

To tell you the truth, I had it all worked out so nicely in my mind before, but now I´m not so sure anymore. Taking a life is after all taking a life. I feel instinctively that I should support abortion, that it´s "politically correct", but there is so much going on behind the scenes of this issue that all the arguments that have been yelled at different directions, millions of times before, seem all washed out and not up to date anymore.

Like what is a mercy-kill?( if the featus is sick or deformed) Is it right to kill someone that you know will suffer very badly otherwise? Is it right to kill to protect your own body? ( when children get pregnant )

I don´t think I can give a simple yes or no answer to this issue, because it´s up to the individuals involved to decide, the mother, the father and the soul of the unborn child.
But I do think that people in general are taking too little time to consider the options. But that they do in many issues, it´s the nature of human consciousness as it is today, it prefers not to think, it is very much like in a dreamstate. But the ringing of the alarm-clocks are getting louder and louder...

But on a soul level, if the abortion takes place, it was then a mutual decision from all the individuals involved. The soul of the aborted child had then agreed to this short visit within the physical reality to help the parents have this experience that an abortion bring. It concists mostly of learning through pain/fear. But this is very complex and individual how the parents will learn. If they don´t recongnize the pain that an abortion generates within their consciousness, they may have to experience loss on another level. Or the unrecognized pain will take it out on their bodies, as illnesses.

Well, this will be enough for now...:)

Hi Bebelina:

Understanding and acknowledgement are two different things...

and ...you know...the Universe is unfolding as it should....

Bebelina,

An Unborn baby did NOT make a collective decision.

I do not understand when you say you want to make the politically correct choice, what about your choice?......It seems to me you have a mind of your own.

Sarcastic comment: I love to make fun of people who want to save animals from those who kill them for their furs........but it is OK to kill an unborn child??.......does not make sense to me......like it does not make sense when people say do NOT kill those who murder innocent people, but do not question ME, when I say I want to murder the innocent.

By the way........I do not believe in killing animals for fur either, there are plenty of ways for us to stay warm. That is also a crime against nature.

Lets hear your opinion Bebelina, not the politically correct one.

One thing is perfectly clear, the unborn child does have a soul, a soul equal to yours and mine and everybody elses and fully capable at making decisions. It´s not a "baby-soul" , it´s a fully grown soul that has decided to participate in life in that paricular way with the souls of the parents.

But maybe you have a different view of the workings of the soul?

I would like that abortion is legal, but that the hospitals and cliniques took more time to evaluate each situation. For the reasons I mentioned above, as if a child gets pregnant, if the mothers body wouldn´t last throughout the pregnancy or if the featus is so severly damaged that the child is destined to a life in physical pain. And for other reasonable individual causes.

So I don´t really think that the issue in itself is abortion, because these questions apply to many areas in our lives.
Questions like: How holy is a life? What is mercy? Is a life holy enough for you to realise that it suffers and wants to be ended? Is it right to grant that wish?
Death is natural. Can killing be natural? Is it right to kill a fully grown healthy "baby" in a war? Is it right to kill a 3 week old cellcomposition undeveloped "baby" ? For whatever reasons.

Maybe when we stop killing the fully grown "babies" , the killing of the undeveloped and unborn "babies" will automatically cease?

For whatever reasons the parents does an abortion, they have this in common: they don´t want to put another life into this word. Why? What is wrong with this world? :rolleyes:

And having a baby growing in your belly is a very symbiotic state, you´re not just a container producing more life. It is very intimate and personal, and if a woman isn´t ready for that she shouldn´t have to be forced to go through with it.
As long as she and the father are aware of the emotional loss they will suffer from the abortion.

And who would adopt all those unwanted children? Would it be like in China, where babies are left in the forest to die? Is that mercy?

It is almost like I feel a mission arising from this...wait...I can already hear the slogan....."No more babies! " , until there is peace in the world! :D

That is actually my mothers idea, she is about to start a campaign about this.
That women should refuse to give birth until we have peace. It would work too, in the long run. The men would eventually begin to wonder why the population is diminishing and they are running short on their cannon-fodder supply! :mad:

You and I do not have a much different veiw of the soul you just brought the soul up, we had never discussed it before.

I agree a baby has a soul, a full soul if you will, but not one that has the ability to make decisions for itself, that is the parents responsibility. I cannot stand those who have the nerve to claim they know whether or not an unborn baby has a soul....idiots

Idealistic ideas, are not realistic ideas Bebelina, lets talk abouit reality.

I agree that abortion has it's place. There are situations when it is necessary, to save a life. BUT part of what you said hints on the "Womans right to choose" belief. this is what I do not understand, you are saying that a woman has the right to choose to kill her innocent unborn child. But "MEN" (since you singled men out) do not have a right to kill those who murder innocent civlilians? I consideration of this I contest that a woman who so freely kills her baby is MORE guilty.........

As stated before I do not believe govt. has the right to dictate morality so abortion should be legal, however this is where the issue ends as far as the morality about it goes......those who are pro choice for the reasons I have stated (govt. control) are correct, but those who are pro-choice because they feel they personally have the RIGHT to do whatever they want with a sacred life.......are WRONG......they do NOT have that right.

and let me state that I also do not believe that anyone has the right to kill anyone else (WAR) however we HAVE to, or they will kill us first.....it is a basic rule of survival and reality.

you want to convince women to stop having children until MEN decide to stop WAR? (essentially that is what you are saying)

Good luck, you are not dealing with reality again Bebelina....just more ideas.........and all those poor nice people who will be deprived of the chance to raise a GOOD moral person who will add beauty to the world....................Just the opposite Bebelina, it is our place to HAVE and raise good responsilble families,,,,,and add to the goodness of the world.

Oh well, I don't know maybe I am wrong

I really have a problem equating 'an innocent, unborn child' with a parasitic growth within a woman's body that is something more like a self-terminating tumor.

That was engaged and a little bit poetic, I thought.

However, do not misunderstand me here.
I am for that abortion should remain legal, but that every case should be in depht examined and valuated if it is really necessary and what the options are. I do NOT mean that it should be taken lightly and in the "assembly-line" fashion that it is being done today.
It is of course in essence wrong to kill, and an abortion does not justify other forms of killings, as in war fore example, or killing animals for meat and fur.
Two wrongs does not make a right, not here and not anywhere.

The "No more babies ! " campaign is my mothers, and I don´t agree with the idea, but it would work, in reality. And wouldn´t that be great? Think of it for a minute, nobody would be harmed but only the male egos, that would finally realize what their warmonging reptilian gene has acheived. This would of course demand a massive hand out of birth control to all women all over the world, and condoms( the less educated men could be fooled that using them would encrease the pleasure).

You keep saying that I live in a dream world and that my ideas are too idealistic to work, but they are NOT! Nothing could be more wrong to say, if we didn´t have idealism , where would the world be today, still stuck in the stone age where men were men and women offspring containers ? It is the idea of a better future, the vision of goodness that ultimately drives the humanity forward, it´s called hope, dear. ( sarcasm...) :rolleyes:
And when we lose that, we will have nothing.

You seem to have a somewhat twisted view of the soul, I must say. Do you think that there are forms of life that do not have a soul? As a featus? Do you think that the existence of a soul is impossible if it is not within a physical body, that the soul is born when the body is born? The soul is ancient, it is the universe, it has always been there, divided into different forms and sizes, but always there and always the same but constantly changing. The unborn baby is connected to ALL that, and so are we. The unborn baby has a soul from the moment the idea of it´s existence is born, and when is that? It began when this entire illusion of physical reality was born, when the universe was born, that is where all ideas of what we have become today and what we will become are taking place. We created, create and will create, all at the same time. The soul is there from the beginning, in everything that the mother is, in everything that father is and in everyhting that IS, including the moment when the sperm hits the egg.

And if one analyzes the situation in human survival terms, women and men are both killing, different lives for diffrent reasons, to ensure their own survival , but they are working in opposite directions. Men are killing those already born because they want to protect their OWN offspring , the unborn babies. Women are killing their unborn offsprings to protect those who are already born. So ending war would end abortion, because women would feel that it is safe to bring new life to the world, no risk for it to be taken and used as cannon-fodder, and since the men are so eager to see their offspring being born and raised they would concern themselves at staying friendly with eachother and maybe even try to exterminate or at least try to control their reptilian genes.

This could be reality, if more people could realize that ideas can be made real!
And what is stopping them ? Fear ...again. Fear of living, fear of dying, fear of loving. Cowards!



:)

Chagur...lol, you dislike babies? :D

Wow, OK Beb, you said a mouthful, but I do not understand your tirade on the soul, I do not think you were talking to me, cause I agree with your ideas on the soul.

I also find your man bashing humorous......... we are not ALL bad just the ones who want to kill you because you believe in something other than they do.

I only say you live in a dream world because.......let me explain:

Obviously our world was created from ideas.....dreams of those who saw a vision, started a movement and achieved their goals, but much of what YOU say does not take into consideration the feelings or actions or opinions of others.......for ex: You had said that you felt you could have changed Hitler by showing him love and compassion.......that is NOT realistic.....it is NOT realistic to think you can change the Taliban by showing them love and compassion..........You have your ideas, but you do not take the other point of view into consideration., your ideas only solve half the problem, the difficult half is the breakdown and understanding of the "ideas" of the other side, there is a song.....titled "You gotta get in to get out" You cannot simply solve a problem by attacking it on the outside, you need to get inside to understand, then you can try and transform something the way you think it should be......and even then....if it does not work.....do not be disappointed, try and keep trying.......

This is part of the reason why Pro choice, pro lifers cannot get meet on mutual ground.....they are both extremists in their beliefs......not willing to bend to understand the OTHER point of view. Pro choicer's need to accept the fact that life is sacred and they do not have the right to Choose simply because they have the ability to do away with a life. They are irresponsible in this regard. Pro lifers are correct in that they have respect for life and realize how abortion is a crime against our very existence, however, people still have free will in a free society and should have the choice......it is a double edged sword.....pro choicer need to be more educated in the morality...aspect....

They do NOT want to see their other point of view......WHY?because we humans are a bunch of self righteous egotistical maniacs.....and STOP Blaming MEN........if women were in charge you would be having CAT fights just like men do......You get along with every woman you meet? From what I understand women are more petty than men when it comes to their opinions.....toward each other.....(and you spelled increase wrong.....it aint..encrease.....)

Love

Mike

Chagur...lol, you dislike babies? Not in the least.

Just dislike the use of 'an innocent, unborn child' when referring to a fetus. I can not equate a parasitic stage of development with 'innocence' and a fetus with an 'unborn child'. Great for eliciting sympathy for a political position, but otherwise dishonest.

Chagur,

Do you have some divine intervention connection that has told you directly that an unborn fetus is nothing more than a stage of parasitic develpment?

I am sorry I am confused?? Are simply removing the moral variable to take that position? I guess then ALL life as you believe merely exists as simple biological stages of growth??

When does it become more? when we are 1 year 2 years or 37 years???

Please tell me who told you this, I want to learn more.

The most 'divine' connection of all: Logic.

Morality has nothing to do with it.
And yes, 'biological stages', but far from simple.

It 'becomes more' when elephants fly and mice rule the Earth.

If you have to ask, you are not ready to know since you have learned little so far. ;)

Bebelina.. brilliant as always :)

Death in itself is no crime. There is nothing wrong in dying. It is continuation of life. The horror of death only strikes the ones that live. The dead do not go to a better place, there is no better place. Life does not end, and not start. It is. Life and love is the same.

The good or bad of life is entirely created by the individuals perception. Harboring fear skews experiences into bad incidents. This does sound dumb to the one that hasn´t given up on negative projection. When one sees fear (which contains desire+greed, hate, anger, jealousy, selfishness and so on) as a driving emotion, one can isolate it and interact beyond its gutreaction tendencies. When this happens it clicks, and the view Bebelina expresses aren´t pipedreams any longer.

Living without fear means you have the courage to live with love.
Saying you cannot live like that because of the illwill of others is just expressing fear and empowering negative mindsets.

Yes, someone attacks me, I strike back.
But many ppl are in a state of aggression and are creating a mindset where they are expecting conflict and therefore creating it on the go.
Plus, there is a huge difference between vengeance and defense.

On and on and on I ramble..... :)

Chagur,

Morality in this context is not a simple word that may or may not be applicable. This is the whole point. It is quite arrogant of you to claim that you KNOW for sure an unborn baby is nothing more than a biological reaction (or however you say it, "parasitic")

Once again, I ask you who told you this? Who came down from the heavens and told you that when a life is conceived......."Don't worry about whether or not this most amazing creation exists, it really is meaningless in terms of existance"

I don't get it? but wait, I am not worthy of knowing because I have not learned enough to even comment on this....HAHAHAHAA

That is as arrogant a statement as you claiming to KNOW things neither you or I can ever understand.

This is the point, you DO NOT understand enough about the creation of LIFE to determine that it is nothing more than ..................I'm sorry did you say....parasite?

Very intelligent Chagur, I am very glad I am not worthy of understanding this point of view........

Congratulations!

You have taken your first step, though small, toward enlightenment.

Again, congratulations. :rolleyes:

Do I not understand the other sides point of view?:confused: Is it me you are talking to now, or have you all of a sudden bunched me together with the sour image of pro-choicers residing in your mind? :D

I perfectly understand how the mind of most humans work, I´m proudly to say...:rolleyes:
But I do actually, I take great interest in understanding others, especially those who have an opposite world view. So don´t come and make assumptions about my personality! :p

About getting in the game and change it from the inside then. This is the game, life, and I´m here, I´m IN! As opposed to the outside. Then you can divide the game into different smaller individual and collective games. No game is the same, and there are new levels to be reached all the time. Getting in the game does not mean that you have to obey the laws created by those who played before. When you are in , you create. You are the developing the story of your life. You are contributing with your whole existance to what the world is perceived as to you, and to others.
You keep repeating "NOT realistic" as if it were an mantra to you, keeping your world view from collapsing. :D
So maybe YOU are the one who needs to take a look over the fence, because it´s not so scary as it sounds to actually BELIEVE in your ideas of a better world. Instead of just complaining and saying "yeah but.." all the time! ;)

" Just..b-e-l-i-e-v-e......." the fairy whispers...:)

I am not really man-bashing, it´s just an old habit that can be used for entertainment. I know you are generally good. But before you critize the female world ruler-ship that will come, give it a try first! What do you have to lose? Oh yes, your war toys, sorry about that...:(

And I didn´t say I could change Hitler fromt he outside, I said if I had been his mother, then it would have been very much from the inside, in every aspect.

Chagur, yes a baby is a baby and a featus a featus, and all has soul and all life is innocent , unless you consider living to be a crime.

MuliBoy....you are so wise....;)

Chagur,

Once again you have made it clear you have nothing important to say in response.

Sarcasim is the recourse of a weak mind.

Muliboy is wise because he agrees with you..........

and I have never said that I do not.....you just do not want to bend your rules, to take your ideas to the next level.

and I apoligize if I sound like I am making assumptins about your personality, I am just trying to get to the bottom of HOW you are actually going to go about accomplishing what you belive in.

I use the world Realistic because much of what you say revolves around the abstract, I can appreciate, understand and would LOVE to see the world change in the ways that you describe.........

But you see, lets use Chagur as an example, (sorry buddy but you brought this on yourself) I have been trying to convince Chagur that he DOES not have the right to claim that he knows an unborn baby has a soul or is something more than, (in his words "a Parasite") Now I know you do not agree with Chagur, in this regard.

So here is your first challange.........just to give you an example of what it will take to change someone elses point of view.....Go ahead......convince Chagur that he is wrong....

Now Chagur, please just don't agree with Bebelina to spite me, even though I know you would love to...........

Go Beb.....GO BEB.......GO BEB..........

I actually meant to say that Chagur, does not have a right to claim he knows,,,,,,,a BABY does NOT have a soul......or is not something more than a parasite

I miswrote......

Ok, come on Chagur, you KNOW I´m right, right? :D

But Mike, what you consider to be the next level I have already passed ages ago, so what you really are suggesting is that I should regress, and that I can´t afford to do, so much work has already been put in the evolution if this spirit , that going back is simply not an option.
I am however very willing to bend my view to have a better outlook on the world, but then you must also convince me first, why it would be better, and so far you have failed, but keep trying. :)

And what do you think I am doing now? Yes, I´m trying to convince other people, and ogres like Chagur why it would be better to live in love instead of fear. That is what I have been doing all the time, and of course, engaging myself in pleasant conversation while at it.
But it´s a two way street, you can´t force someone into believeing what you do, use threats and violence to convince them, but instead try to talk to the heart of people, so that they will understand by themselves, because then it will really stick too. :)

The change begins within you. :)

Thank you Bebelina, we have reached common ground, (you will realize why soon)

Here is a secret about myself.........

I have been trained to be an extremely humble person, in fact I am overly humble at times, someone can all but spit in my face and I will bounce back and show them.....kindness instead, I know this does not sound like ME, in regards to the way I have been speaking, but it is probably the stronger side of me.................the other side is the side that stands his ground. I have worked very hard at being able to differentiate between things of the heart and spirit and Logic.

I am not asking you to regress Bebelina, but remember if you want to change the world you have to be willing to sacrafice and work, not just talk about it. That is why I asked you to try and convice Chagur to change his mind, you will have to deal with people like Chagur, you cannot just ignore him, you have to understand WHY he feels the way he does first and then change his mind. Yes I believe that people are afraid....and afraid to love.

I appreciate and love all you believe, right or wrong, you are truly good and want to spread it and share it ,,,,,,,,,but I am glad Chagur is around to show you what you are facing.

I can say so much more, but I have to work....lets work on Chagur together and see where we get.....

Chagur are you there? No more sarcasim I swear lets just talk.

I have been following the 'conversation' and have come to the conclusion that the core issue appears to be whether a fetus is: 1. An 'innocent unborn child'; or, 2. A 'parasite'?

Therefore, would you please inform me what a fetus contributes to the well being of the ambulatory incubator it temporarilly inhabits other than uremia ... and later, stretch marks.

Before posting your reply, please take a moment to look upon the next stage of parasitic development: <a href=http://www.parasite.com/><font color=RED> A Child </font></a>

I am not interested in the stages of development Chagur, I am interested in the conception of a life...........LIFE Chagur.

Life is the sacred gift of nature, it is the miracle of nature, you cannot measure the significance of this, no matter what stage it is in.....it IS already significant and important, it is beyond our comprehension.....it is something to Awe and cherish and respect.........it is more than a biological reaction...........please try and look at the bigger picture.......

Help Beb.........I am running out of time today....

Big, big backstep ... too bad.

And, you didn't answer my question.

Back step Chagur? It's a back step to you because we have two such completey different feelings about life, we are not yet on common ground. But thick skinned as I am, I will go along and entertain your question. (I will spare you the sarcastic comments about WHY)

OK you want me to answer the question, you are asking what a fetus contributes to the Mother? Essentially I believe that is your question, less the rhetoric.

I am having difficulty understanding HOW you could even come up with a question like that......to me it is a very unimportant issue...........who cares what the fetus contributes....what do you want it to go out and get a job???? What does a three year old contribute? except chasing the child around, changing diapers, losing sleep...........etc....

The contribution (and here is the answer to the question) is LIFE itself, it is the miracle that has taken place inside the mothers body. It is the mysterious force of nature that is to far beyond our comprehension to NOT hold it in reverance......and think if it as something more than just a parasite.......in some regards Chagur I sense you are somewhat of a naturalist.........you look upon life ALL life as part of something greater that grows and dies over and over and over....so the individuality of ONE fetus does not seem to be so significant to you......am I more on your track?

If this is so let me say that individuality is not an important issue either. In fact as a species we are all to caught up in individuality, which is why it is difficult to bring so many together, we all feel we are all so unique, when the truth is we are all the same. Even you and I Chagur, no matter how much we may differ, disagree, fight argue........we can never escape the fact that we are the same...........

So no matter what you feel, regarding a fetus, there still is only ONE truth (MINE,,,,hahahahah I am kidding) whatever it is, there is only one truth......sorry for going off on a tangent it is early.....


Where are you BEB?

But what more can I do than talk? Should I do something special with my body to bring illumination? :D

I know all about ogres like Chagur, believe me, I KNOW what I´m up against! And I am confonting that kind daily. Who doesn´t? They´re all over the place! :D

What the featus brings the mother more than stretchmarks:

A fantastic experience of symbiosis with another human being. To paricipate in the creation of life, to create life. A spiritual and personal growth and maturity. A manifestation of love, the universe and all that we are.

And then, when the child is born:

To give birth, to connect to another human being in the most intimate physical way. To feel the rush of love that will last forever. To care for another human beings physical survival. To be responsible for laying the pattern that will formate this new individuals personality and emotional base.

Chagur, I know that you know that a featus is more than a parasite, nobody can be that dumb...doh!...:D So drop the "hardcore cynical" attitude!It´s ridiculous, man...so immature. :cool:.....:rolleyes:......:D

That was great Bebelina, I don't know if he will bother to respond, he did not to my last one............

My opinion though is to leave out the sarcasim......we cannot mock what someone believes and he will not take you seriously if you antagonize him.

Chagur are you there?

I am simply waiting for something to respond to.

You just have nothing to say Chagur, that is quite obvious.......We can discuss something else if you like........

Well, I have something to say!

Chagur...

First a "supreme dictator" and now an "ogre???" Gee whiz...

Hey! I think you may be coming up in the world!! ;)

~~~

The issue? Fetus is a parasite Vs. Not?

Wars are fought, and people slaughtered because one side insists on making the prime issue mainly about their view being the right view.

Which kinda makes ya wonder what the real issue is after all.

Life, and its importance, mean different things to different people. Always has and always will.

~~~

Counterbalance

I agree Counterbalance, however for all intents and purposes we are at WAR right now..........Bebelina, wants to change the world, I tried to explain to her that in order to do that she needs to reach out to others, understand them, make them see that she has a strong point based upon solid ground.

I asked her to try and make Chagur understand her point of view, remember we do not have to change each other completely to meet on mutual ground, but if we can agree on some things we have come a long way......it's not as simple as saying Chagur has a different point of view so leave him alone........NO

we want to get into his mind and understand WHY he disagrees with us...............what do YOU think Counter???

I asked her to try and make Chagur understand her point of view, remember we do not have to change each other completely to meet on mutual ground, but if we can agree on some things we have come a long way......it's not as simple as saying Chagur has a different point of view so leave him alone........NO we want to get into his mind and understand WHY he disagrees with us...............what do YOU think Counter???

~~~

I think Chagur is intelligent enough to recognize when others are "trying to make" him do anything. I respect his right to respond to such as he thinks proper.

I don't think in terms of changing others. I understand that this is impossible. This kind of change comes from within an individual. The more we try to make someone do or think anything, the more resistance we are likely to encounter. It's the way the universe works. Even if we do get them to "change" to some degree, the more valuable, real and long-lasting change comes about when they do so on their own. I try to look at things realisitically.

I also think that part of the solution to "resolving" any difference in opinions includes truly understanding how recognizing the fact that there are differences is significant enough in its own right.

Speaking of rights, I don't think I have the right to demand that others explain themselves simply because they have a differing viewpoint. --or to belittle them when they don't explain themselves.

I also understand the futility of trying to discuss something with people who are more interested in "making" others accept their view.

Feel free to disagree.

~~~

Counterbalance

Speaking of rights, I don't think I have the right to demand that others explain themselves simply because they have a differing viewpoint. --or to belittle them when they don't explain themselves.

In regards to that paragraph......how do you EVER have a conversation with someone? Are you telling me that when you do not agree with someone ......you just say, OK that is the way you feel ...... and walk away? I don't get it.

Part of the thrill of being alive IS expression, in whatever form it reveals itself.

Don't you like to debate with people? or do you just hang around with people who agree with you all the time? I don't get it?

Are you watching Bebelina? There are important things going on here..........

I do not demand the that someone explain themselves.....what do you want me to do? Talk to Chagur about the weather? In regards to differences and accepting them, you are correct!!! depending on what we are discussing, I would never claim the right to change someone else.......for ex: If someone believes there is NO God I respect that, however it does not mean that I will not debate it......(Chagur started with the sarcasim, I asked that he stop it because it Alienates....) OF course then I followed up with my own sarcasim......when I said, "Sarcasim is the recourse oif a weak mind"..........I could help myself,

I respect everyones differences.....however, this does not mean I will not debate issues and take issues to the MAT.......

So what do you THINK Counter, what do you think about the abortion issue?,,,,,,stop sidestepping the conversation.....

teerum,

I agree. I don't think you get it. I'm not sidestepping the conversation.

I'm turning my back on it.

~~~

Counterbalance

Counterbalance,
I have worn many 'hats' over the years and no doubt will wear a few more before I say "Thanks all - Its been fun, but now it's time to leave." There have even been moments when some considered me to be a 'kind, compassionate, caring individual'. And then there were moments when I was considered by some to be 'the blue eyed devil' or 'evil incarnate'. So 'ogre' or 'dictator of the world' are merely hats to be worn temporarily, when circumstances dictate. In a sense, I have worn them before. ;)

teerum,
Please don't try so hard to convince me that you are a close minded bigot who will go to any lengths to made others conform to your warped view of the world. she needs to reach out to others, understand them, make them see that she has a strong point based upon solid ground. I asked her to try and make Chagur understand her point of view It is statements like the above that have led to bloodshed when momentous issues (such as which end of the egg to crack) inflame the normally docile, ignorant masses.

Take care.

PS There is a big difference between 'discussing' different points of view and 'arguing' them. Since the latter appears to be your preferred mode of communicating, teerum - Good Bye.

OK, nice talking to you.....

Ok Guys.....I agree with everything you have to say.......FEEL Better now?

Yes Chagur My view of the world is warped.........because I do NOT agree with you that an unborn baby is nothing more than a parasite.....and you never explained why.....

and I am a closed minded !!!!! HMMM......look up at the night sky Chagur,,,,,,,,,you did not create it.........and do not have the right to explain it....

No war Chagur, you can do whatever you want however you want....and I would break bread with you anytime....but that does not mean that I will agree with you on this subject.

What has this dicussion turned in to? Wether it´s right or wrong to try to convince Chagur? :rolleyes:...:D

Well guys, it´s more a question of communicating and interacting with other humans for the purpose of learning. And as I said before , it´s a two way street. What you give is what you get.
We need eachother to learn and grow, to live.:)
It´s an individual choice wether you want to stand up for what you believe in, or not. You feel better if you do, and worse if you don´t.
To turn your back on the world means that you are neglecting your need for communication. To live as a hermit, can however be very fruitful, for shorter periods at the time, but to just turn your back on certain issues because they are "too hot to handle" , that is neglect. You are then putting yourself down by not trusting yourself enough to have a valid opinion in the matter. If you do have an opinion, but are afraid to use it, then that indicates that you instinctively know that your opinion will not be well met by others. Then perhaps you should re-examine your opinion, and why you have it. Or be bold and share it, and learn from the responses. It is totally up to you. :)

Thank you Bebelina, I thought I was going insane.......Chagur and Counterbalance hate me for some reason.

I know that I may try to put people on the spot to debate, but I do not mean it in a negative way. I just like to get to the bottom of what someone is thinking......

You are wonderful.............

Sorry Chagur, sorry Counter. I did not mean to alienate either of you.

Hey counter, why not just tell us how you feel about the issue?

I promise I will discuss, not argue....

Teerum, calm down. Your posts are jumping out at me with nervous jitters.
Damn, now my fingers are shaking too :)

I´d have to agree with chagur here, speaking biologically a child is like a parasite. Hell, the whole of humanity is a parasitic lifeform that feeds on the planetary host. That is biology. How nature works. Then we add the prescense of consciousness and spirit and the whole thing is wrapped up in the neat bag of excistance where these views do not clash on a cosmic scale.

Material and etheral are both part of reality. Remove one part and it´s just not the same :)

Thanks for your response Muliboy.......and sorry I am giving you the shakes....I guess I AM a nervous guy.........

But the problem I have is WHEN we decide to add consciouness and spirit. AT what point do our veiws come together in the whole cosmic existance? I have to be honest, I do not think that Chagur is thinking into it that much......

Does anyone of us have the right to claim WHEN an unborn baby has a soul, or how important it's life is in the overall realm of existance? How can WE? I understand biology, YES I do....thats the simple part......but the conception of LIFE HAS to be more than parasitic.........I mean really think about it........

Lets talk....

Life and death is in the moment. There is a soul in everything. It is the energy that weaves material excistance. By the rules of "reality" death excists since it marks the ending of a linear experience, but it is no more a ending than the credits at the end of a movie. The movie does not cease to excist once you´ve seen it. It is a entity of its own. A package.
The "soul" is constant, it is not added at any point, it resides above the material excistance. Excistance is the wake of the spirits motion.

Morale is the means of making excistance a smooth ride. Every clausule and rule that lessen the birthright of a enjoyble life experience are anti-life.
But death is nothing to the spirit. It is like going for a coke during a commercial break :)

I like that explanation Muliboy, it is sound and logical, it offers relief in consideration of a life ending, whether it is unborn or had lived for 70 years.....I mean that from the heart... I would assume then you feel that all life is preciouos, preciouos in the sense that the creation of life however small is significant in itself. (or I do not want to put words in your mouth) but if everything has a soul then is must be significant in terms of existance.

I agree also that Morale makes the ride smooth, yes, however does morale exist for just this reason or is there a force in nature that is felt and shared by many that drives us to respect nature, the universe, existance. Respect others......etc......This is what I am trying to understand myself. I have a hard time when someone over simplifies what we are, which is what I feel Chagur does. I mean no insult to anyone when I discuss these matters. But some things just do not make sense to me.

There is one point I want to make in regards to what you have said. Every time, life is created, in my opinion it is like paying homage to creation itself. There is something more to the creaton of life than merely..........passing to and fro in between the world of the soul/spirit and back again in death. Life IS creation, in many ways we have to consider that where life is NOT created, it never existed and never will, there can be no impact in death if there was never a life.

Life as we know it, is a step......to death....from death maybe another, we will find out..........

and still I keep an open mind..........although impossible as it is for me.....that after death....(as my atheist friend believes.) there is NOTHING........

Your friend is right, there is no thing. Some thing only excists in a material incarnation :)

Yes, I do find life very precious. It is not the length that matters. It´s just the beauty of being. Life is abundant and it´s here so we can be part of it. It´s the tangible version of excistance as the etheral is the floating dreamstate.
Materia is for touching, smelling and tasting.
... and every day is a good day to live or die:)

Appreciating the moment is key. There is where the best gems are found.
Being stressed, feeling the need to digest all that there is to experience is a good way of letting life pass unnoticed while pursuing some excistential goal.
Life happens whether one tries to or not, and letting it come to you, instead of chasing it, makes it a gentler get together :)

HMMM.......

I keep an open mind, but I lean toward something being there.,.....there is something.....after death....I am 90 percent sure.

Having an outlook on life that is day to day IS very important and also what we are suppossed to do, not because we are suppossed to ignore the larger picture. but because.....time only allows us to exist in the human form. The human form has it's limitations and we must abide or go insane...........

That is why so many suffer from anxiety (as I do often) our spirit moves faster than our bodies allow.

also ...... do not always let life come to you......as my humble master teaches.......you need to take advantage of oppurtunities that cross your path, recognize and know when to be the aggresor.

Abide or go insane... brilliant :)

I meant that there is no (material) thing in a immaterial excistance (crap joke yeees :)).
Taking action is good, but one needs to be aware what one is trying to achieve and also be in control of the attitude one adopts in this pursuit.
I believe that attitude is what affects your surroundings the most.
Not so much what you do, as how you do it.

The spirit does move fast. So fast it flies away and returns within every moment, in effect there all the time :)
No need trying to be more than human. Being physical is the meaning of being physical, and the limitations are just limitations when the whole is forgotten.

Master?! Oh god, you are doomed! :D

Originally said by Patman
The way I see it an all powerful being that wanted mindless followers would have ended everything in the great flood and started over, or would something like that be admitting that even he/she, it is a screw up and makes mistakes.(Trust me I KNOW this is getting whacky )

I'm not totally sure if I'm right since I haven't been expossed to Catholic beliefs for a long time but wasn't that the point of God having a son (Jesus) who was a mortal and died. I know I was taught that Jesus was 'Perfect' but if you take it more contextually you could argue that God created(or became) Jesus in order to show us that we were truely made in his image and he was capable of mistakes as well.

This fact seems a little more plausible for me (I am not Catholic BTW) since I choose to take beliefs from many different faiths and create my own thoughts on life, destiny etc. I myself would find it more comforting to rely on a God who can identify with our problems, omniscience just seems too far for me to follow.

Since God is generally credited with omniscience, surely he knows exactly how the story is going to unfold. The whole 'Jesus killed for our sins' business and everything else. The dude knew.

And if he's omniscient, our fates must already be sealed (for he knows what will happen). Where's our freedom? What's the point?

So maybe he isn't omniscient. In which case he isn't omnipotent. In which case he talks a good game but can't back it up. I want another God...

I want a new God!!!!! That made me laugh this morning Captain Canada..........Well you can have any God you want that is what Humans have done anyway. It is a common belief that Humans created "God" to stay sane, it makes sense I guess and I believe there are many more with "No God" who ARE insane then those with Some God........People pick a God......and follow, it is simple, it is unintrusive,,,,I mean who wants an intrusive God anyway?....intrusive people are enough.....so This invisible God people choose, is really a kool guy, if you sin......you stick your self in a little box.....with some guy you can't see, say you are sorry and off you go back into the world clean as whistle......HAHA.......and people who do this actually believe they have been forgiven.....Well you know what? if they believe it that is all that counts......or maybe not........So you have your unintrusive God, who comes into your life whenever you need him/her........and he's gone when you do not.......and it's great cause he never comes to you and gives you any crap about it!!!......God is perfect...........HAAHAHAHAHA......Ok, but all sarcasim aside......................

People Box themselves into a religion and draw the line that is what happens.....Some REALLY Box it in, others just don't make to much of an issue about it. I was raised a catholic, although I am ANTI,..,.,Catholic Church.....(for many reasons) I keep an open mind to some of what I was taught, it may be true, I don't know......which brings me to what I believe.....I DON"T KNOW what is out there? However I feel that I may be closer to understanding than many because I have NOT boxed myself in.....I have found that if I relax, clear my mind cleaning the slate of ALL of what I have been molded by, personally, religiously Everything..........I get closer to understanding what I AM......understanding what we ARE.....is the first step to knowing........,,,,,,,thats all I have to say right now.......Happy Holidays to ALL...........(if thats OK to say) HAHAHAHAH.........

Re. "I have found that if I relax, clear my mind cleaning the slate of ALL of what I have been molded by, personally, religiously Everything..........I get closer to understanding what I AM...... "

Tried that once, scared the hell out of myself! Never went back to check out what it was that scared me so badly.

Take care. ;)

I hear ya Chagur,

To immerse yourself into the uknown can be scary, but it is a need for some....the biggest fear I might have is not being able to understand what I may find.

I believe that my dreams are a door to true reality. Not the reality created by Men/Women. Every time I have a significant dream I write it down.......I have pages and pages.......but still no solution, but when I read them....it comes together a little at a time.

It wasn't immersing myself into the unknown ... it was a search for the core
of my being. There was no fear until I got to a certain point ... and whatever
was there ... no, whatever was just beyond that point ...scared the hell out
of me and I couldn't ... didn't ... want to go any deeper.

And, it wasn't a dream. For lack of a better term I have to refer to it as deep
meditation. Forty years later I can relive the experience almost as clearly as
when it happened ... and I still don't want to try it again.

Take care.

Can you feel strange 'energy' comes to you when you got to certain point?

strange energy cannot be seen, it only can be felt...some of SISGroup's members had arrived to that certain point...
We are afraid too...because science cannot explain our scary.
The explanation is not in science, but religion......

Human was born on the earth, not to HAVE any kind of energy, but to USE energy which come to us.

Human awareness has leads human to born religion and science.....both are conditioned man to use any 'energy'. Science lead human to use countable energy whom we learn in the school, such as heat, nuclear, fuel, etc. Religion conditioned man to use uncountable energy which come to us, such us insight or ideas.

Energy which come to our awareness can be felt...so use it!
:rolleyes:

No, not afraid any more; rather, uncomfortably uneasy.

And it wasn't an energy thing, more a presence ... if you know what I mean.

But then, maybe I shouldn't be talking about it.

Take care :(

Originally posted by Chagur
No, not afraid any more; rather, uncomfortably uneasy.

And it wasn't an energy thing, more a presence ... if you know what I mean.

But then, maybe I shouldn't be talking about it.

Take care :(

Where are you going.......or are you still eager to go on?

God is Energy.

Why give us the ability to think for ourselves if you just want a bunch of mindless idiots to praise you? (God that is)

Well... this is a wrong message that the comtemporary Bible pass to people. But before 1500, when a stupid king changed the Bible only for his own benefit, the Bible doesn't have this kind of domination.
He gaves us free thoughts, free will, because without free will, we wouldn't be alive, anyways!!
How can I explain... your Highter-Self, your True-Self is God. It's just a matter of awareness. If you are sleeping, can you feel a snake climbing on you? I think so... But if you are conscient, you will feel it. It's what is happening. You just can't feel, but you are the whole Universe! As you woke up to your True Identity you'll start to feel it.

P.S.: This is what an awaked person says (there are not many of them here...not in the nowtoday's world :() :

Bebelina said:

Then another discussion is that old one about free will and destiny and my thought on that is this: life (free will+heart=destiny)

That we have a destiny, or a prefered destination in life, and to get there we must use our free will and follow our hearts.

Blessings,
Nelson

Chagur,

Once you said:
Re. "I have found that if I relax, clear my mind cleaning the slate of ALL of what I have been molded by, personally, religiously Everything..........I get closer to understanding what I AM...... "
Tried that once, scared the hell out of myself! Never went back to check out what it was that scared me so badly.

Yes... you were in the right way to discover yourself. What scared you was probably your power!! As I said in my last post, your True-Self is God. You are the whole Universe. Is a kind of frightening this reality... as I said in my example... If you are sleeping and a snake climbs on you, what can you fear? But if you are conscient, you will feel it. First, you think that is a snake climbing on you, but then, you discover that is not. You need to look at it, to experience your fear. Than it will go. We just fear what we don't know. Know it, and you will lose your fear. Take a look to your life with this fear... than decide wheter you go and face it or not. Make a decision. Don't lose your life with your fear. You are here, in this world, to discover and experience yourself. So do not fear it. Everyone will do it, in this life or in other. You were experiencing you own presence, your own power. You are getting close... :)
Good Luck!

Blessings,
Nelson

Chagur and SISGroup, I know MuliBoy has experienced something similar during mediation. That one comes as far as one can get, sort of reaches the on/off button of life. To be or not to be, and to be you must chose a form or dissolve into the vastness of nothing, to not be. I suppose the frightful apparition of the choice given makes you appreciate existance a bit more. :)

Seeker, thanks for recognizing my brilliance. ;)

Hello all,

I was trying to go through the replies, I have been out of the loop on this one, but I will add something......

I have done a good amount of meditation, some on my own, some organized (Zen classes) We were trained to clear our mind of all thought (which of course was the basis of the meditation) We needed to admit our mind was STILL clouded in thought and would have to accept six strikes from a bamboo sword (interesting sensation) it works and it made me understand where I needed to be, but it did not get me there.

When you let go, the beginning instance is that all you now have left is your body.....in a sense it is like the first sensation of being born, this is the rebirth that we all seek. Imagine everything that has molded you, every bit of who you are is now gone from your consciousness (it is not really gone however) it is time travel, (remember the movie "Altered States") it was symbolic to what we are striving for in meditation. to rewind our life, turn around and begin the journey again. Please note however though what I think we might not realize is what creates fear in accomplishing this and/or what we see. I am not saying it is the whole reason for fear, but part of it IS the lonliness of removing yourself from the conscious earth. I have done it and have been gone for longer periods of time than I would have liked. Fought my way back, but I find myself slipping back from time to time......it's not good. It can be a dangerous thing to do......we should go, but be careful not to let ourselves be remolded because we CANNOT change who we are, we can grow and expand........but not become someone else.,...(HMMMM an inspiring thought......I need to write)

Oh Well.........I am afraid to lose myself.........NOT what I may come to understand about existance........