So what do you think, are they the same but with different names? The physical world is what it is because it needs to, with all the "good" and "bad" ingredients. The etherical (God) manifests itself in the physical ( Satan) . Is the physical world perceived as Satan ?
Or the less good of two options, which in this case would be Satan, as I use this metaphore. Is everything divided in two or is even this an illusion. I think so, but then the illusion is also real, because it´s there. So both is true. Both, two, yin and yang. But in one circle.

Just freak out here! :D

*Originally posted by Bebelina
So what do you think, are they the same but with different names?*

Different, with different names.
I was hoping you'd preach the "gospel" of yourself.
It's funnier, and this stuff is very deep.

*Is the physical world perceived as Satan ?*

No, Satan is perceived as Satan, although sometimes people mistake him for someone else.

*Is everything divided in two or is even this an illusion.*

No, some things are divided into three, some into four, and so on.

*Both, two, yin and yang. But in one circle.*

Yin and yang is the Chinese recipe for mental illness.
In that sense, Satan is like the chef.

God comes in and throws out the bad food and gives you real bread.

I am that bread of life.
(John 6:48, KJV).

Well, thanks for replying.
But I was talking more in metaphores, when I mentioned yin, yang, god and satan...and you know that.
Sure , everything can be divided endlessly, but there is an apparent division of all essential issues in two, good and bad, love and fear, light and darkness and so on.
And what the chinese call yin and yang , the christians call god and satan.
But it´s the same thing.
More interesting is however if we assume this division into two is also applicable to the physical and the etherical world. Is then the physical or the etherical world perceived as the better of the two?
We can even take this metaphore and place it on humans, are you Satan or God? Both are needed, so what is your pick? Different sides of the same coin.
It´s the interaction between the two that is the fuel of evolution. All is love.

Now, this was almost a gospel...aren´t you sick of hearing me? If not, you will be happy to know that my gospel is soon to become available in real audio too. I´m making music, and singing. I can already see the horror mixed with fascination that is glowing from your avatar. :D

*Originally posted by Bebelina
Well, thanks for replying.
But I was talking more in metaphores, when I mentioned yin, yang, god and satan...and you know that. *

Of course, but you forgot to mention what they were supposed to be metaphors of.

*Sure , everything can be divided endlessly, but there is an apparent division of all essential issues in two, good and bad, love and fear, light and darkness and so on.*

Good and evil, permanent and temporary.
Let's not forget those two, and side by side like that.

*And what the chinese call yin and yang , the christians call god and satan.
But it´s the same thing.*

No, but I assume that is the cornerstone of your "gospel."

*More interesting is however if we assume this division into two is also applicable to the physical and the etherical world. Is then the physical or the etherical world perceived as the better of the two?*

I didn't realize the duality metaphor extended to better, and worse.
Usually, most philosophers stick to good and evil.
This "better/worse" duality is a little tougher to deal with, mainly because comparative dualities always leave one asking where the reference point is.

*We can even take this metaphore and place it on humans, are you Satan or God? Both are needed, so what is your pick?*

Your entire philosophy is based on the assumption that permanent and temporary are not part of the duality metaphor.
Since they are, God is permanent and Satan is temporary.

*Different sides of the same coin.*

Can't be, since one is permanent, and the other is temporary.

*It´s the interaction between the two that is the fuel of evolution.*

Well, that certainly explains the weaknesses of the theory of evolution.
Half of the fuel for evolution is temporary.
It's running out of gas, metaphorically speaking, of course.

*Now, this was almost a gospel...aren´t you sick of hearing me?*

No, you're a riot.

*If not, you will be happy to know that my gospel is soon to become available in real audio too.*

Oh no! *ahem* I mean great?

*I´m making music, and singing.*

Profits to be made there, I'm sure, provided you are good at it.
OTOH, if you are singing Andromedan ethnic music, then maybe the market dynamics are different, and you don't need to be all that good.
Are you actually a good musician?

*I can already see the horror mixed with fascination that is glowing from your avatar.*

Well, let's just call them mixed feelings.

Sheesh .....dont even bother defending yourself against Tony1
He is only being a pain in the ass as per usual.

I see your point and I think its a good concept... the two pair of equal opposites do indeed seem very similar.

I never thought of it like that before.

Cheers
RazZ:D

Yes, Tony is like Satan isn´t he? :D....;)

Sorry...:)

They are of course metaphores for the duality of existence.
And that includes temporary and permanent. The physical world can then be seen as the temporary of the two. So temporary is then Satan, the worse.
But still the same coin. Because the coin is existence, and in that all exists, the permanent and the temporary, God and Satan.
The duality within the whole.
The paradox of reality.

When I speak of evolution I mean the evolution of souls, not the physical evolution.
But then again, the physical reflects the etherical and the other way around.
Temporary and permanent working together to evolve the paradox of existenace.
Like is moving temporary and not moving permanent? Is life moving and death not? Something vs. nothing.
What is the correct meaning of the word death? I´m not talking about physical death, because then we just move to another level of existance, but of the real death, when everything seizes to exist, when there is absolutely nothing, is that "hell" or "heaven" , yin or yang?
When you have the decision to push the on or off button. To be or not to be...:p
Is the not being included in the whole, or is "nothing" outside of "something" ( with the inbuilt duality) , and creates a new duality, the final one?

Oh well, I´m not a musician, I just make music. I think that I have a pretty good ear for it and a good voice too. But the singing will be done in English, so that the Earths population will get it too, but maybe some Andromedian will give it a nice ethnic touch, I will think of including some nice passages of that too...:D

I am of the opinion that God has no opposite. He has no equal. There is God and then there is all that He created.

Yup. So simple it´s scary.

First there is nothingness. God is the etheral. The etheral is like.. nothingness. No substance, no nothing. Only being. The etheral long for the material.
So God fell into the material, swimming in the primordal goo. Darkness and chaos. "This is most uncomfortable" the lord thinks, "Let there be light" (the Lightbringer is born). God stretches out and wishes for solidity and stuff to dig. There unfolds the universe, the body of god in solid form. A separate entity from the etheral non-being of pre-material excistance. A solid incarnation of the immaterial lord.. Testify!

But alas, the etheral cannot become material and still be the same. These are mirrors of what the other is not. 1 and 0. Light and dark. The material is carnal, decomposing, linear and solid. The etheral knows nothing of these things. Both manifestations (if the etheral can be called a manifestation. It´s rather a anti-manifestation) loose comprehension of its twin and grow apart.

In time becoming enemies even. Just like most ppl who are in constant conflict with themselves because they lack understanding of their different levels of perception, excistance and cognition.

*Originally posted by razz
I see your point and I think its a good concept... the two pair of equal opposites do indeed seem very similar.

I never thought of it like that before.*

Farcical.
They aren't "equal" opposites since some other parts of the duality are "permanent vs. temporary" and "winner vs loser."

*Originally posted by Bebelina
Yes, Tony is like Satan isn´t he?*

Now, now, that would be you that you're talking about.

*When I speak of evolution I mean the evolution of souls, not the physical evolution.*

Naturally.
But that's where the part of the duality known as "truth vs falsehood" steps into the picture.

*What is the correct meaning of the word death? I´m not talking about physical death, because then we just move to another level of existance, but of the real death, when everything seizes to exist, when there is absolutely nothing, is that "hell" or "heaven" , yin or yang?*

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
(Revelation 20:14, KJV).

*creates a new duality, the final one?*

Of course, the final duality will be "God's way vs the highway."

* I´m not a musician*

What a sales pitch for your music.
Heeeeeeeeeere's Beb! The antimusician!!!
Let's hear it for Beb!!!!!

That must be another part of the duality of nature.
Music vs antimusic.

*But the singing will be done in English, so that the Earths population will get it too*

How nice of you to include the Earth's population in your potential audience.
As a member of the Earth's population, I thank you.

*I will think of including some nice passages of that too*

That's probably where we'll find the antimusic, correct?

*Originally posted by MuliBoy
Just like most ppl who are in constant conflict with themselves because they lack understanding of their different levels of perception, excistance and cognition.*

That's a well-known problem.

In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
(2 Timothy 2:25, KJV).

Thanks MuliBoy for helping me out here.
And to you too Tony, although your help is more anti-help. :D

However, what has the duality of truth vs. faslehood has to do with the evolution of souls?
I can see that Chrisrianity has an explanation too for the nothingness, known as "highway". Is that the same as the second death, or is the second death at a lower level than the highway?
Where is Satan in this picture?
Is the amount of satan in the world always constant, or does it come times when the satanic aspects increase and decrease, like fluctuations of Gods breath?
But nothing cannot be Satan. So what is nothing according to Christianity, besides from your word of it "highway"?

MuliBoy, can you expalin further what you mean when you say that nothingness and the etherical is the same? If you have time, that is. I know you are a busy man....playing TV-games. :D
Because according to your explanation nothing is God and something is Satan?
Then what about the ultimate nothingness, beyond good and evil , beyond the etherical and material?

dkb218, it´s not that Satan is an equal, more like a mirror of what God is not.
Which in needed by God, for selfknowledge so to speak. :p

Antimusic...neat word.







:bugeye:

Groan... Okelidokeli, I´ll put the joypad down for a few seconds.. :D

The etheral is without substance. It is being in nothingness, everything and nothing. No time/space, the opposite of the material. As a dream or unconsciousness where even thoughts drift un-anchored.
I´m not saying it would be a uncomfortable state (there is nothing to hang feelings on either), just that it is everything the material is not.

As such it would be safe to assume that a etheral being would find matter incredibly fascinating. As the etheral states are very much desired by many of our fellow material humanoids :)

Tony, could you plese say in your own words what the Timothy 2:25 line means? I think I get it but then it just slips through my etheral mind...

*Originally posted by Bebelina
And to you too Tony, although your help is more anti-help.*

And, as we both know, you're anti-right as usual. ;)

*However, what has the duality of truth vs. faslehood has to do with the evolution of souls?*

Easy.
Souls - truth
Evolution of souls - falsehood

*I can see that Chrisrianity has an explanation too for the nothingness, known as "highway". Is that the same as the second death, or is the second death at a lower level than the highway?*

LOL It would be at the same level.
Presumably, the highway will be made of ashes.

*Where is Satan in this picture?*

Ashes.

*Is the amount of satan in the world always constant, or does it come times when the satanic aspects increase and decrease, like fluctuations of Gods breath?*

Think of it this way, whenever you are talking, that would be like...

*But nothing cannot be Satan. So what is nothing according to Christianity, besides from your word of it "highway"?*

Nothing is actually nothing.

The term "highway" is from a slang expression "My way or the highway," which indicates that you do it my way or you do it no way, or you do things my way or you can hit the road, etc.

*Because according to your explanation nothing is God and something is Satan?*

If that's his idea, don't count on him being able to explain anything.

*Antimusic...neat word.*

Yes.
Think of what it would have to mean.
It can't be a different kind of music, since then it would be music.

*Originally posted by MuliBoy
Tony, could you plese say in your own words what the Timothy 2:25 line means?*

Sure.
Thnjhf ahf qwdii dqijqwdijjj qwdhjdjhd qdwijiqwjqw awjkjd dqkjqwkj.

Is that clear?
Maybe you want me to use someone else's words.

In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
(2 Timothy 2:25, KJV).

It means that people who do not believe the gospel end up in complete contradiction all of the time.
That's why it is so easy to debate evolutionists since they contradict themselves and each other continuously.

The fly in the ointment is that they have no clue that they contradict themselves so pointing it out is almost useless, which is why "peradventure" is used.
The word means that it isn't very likely that those who contradict themselves will ever be able to see the truth, but there is a tiny chance.

Han bör med saktmod tillrättavisa de motspänstiga, i hopp att Gud till äventyrs skall förläna dem bättring, så att de komma till kunskap om sanningen
(2 Timoteus 2:25, SWE).

Now, I'm not a real ace at Swedish, but it looks like "i hopp att Gud till äventyrs" seems to mean that the chances are not good that self-contradictors will ever see the truth.

Strange that the English Biblequote says something different than the Swedish. I wonder what it really says in the original language then....:confused:
Because in Swedish it says that " He should gently correct the obstinate, hoping that God peradventure will grant them repentance, so that they will know the truth. "

This qoute brings up many questions though, like who is "he" and why does one interpretation says the " obstinate" and the other " those who oppose themselves", and why would God ( who is good) do anything peradventure( isn´t that very arrogant? ) ?
It somehow insinuates that God is not really interested in helping those people, maybe if he´s bored or something, he will grant them grace....:rolleyes:

This I see as one very good piece of evidence of the human need for power, by interpretating cosmos in a way that only gains himself , and can give him power over other people by using made up religious threats, that has nothing to do with the endless love of God and the Cosmos.

Because in that bibleqoute God appears like an arrogant Satan.

Well then, so you don´t believe in the evolution of souls, so what do you think is he next step in existance after the soul stage of being? Nothingness?
To go to heaven or hell? To God or Satan. Well, by reading those biblequotes, I´m beginning to think that Bible may very well be written by Satan, because it emphasiszes so much on controlling people. :bugeye:

I´m very well aware of what the expression "highway" means, but thanks for the further explanation anyway. :)

MuliBoy, you still didn´t explain what position in the yin-yang, God-Satan paradox the ultimate nothingness comes in. Because that lies beyond the material and etherical. The etherical is not nothingness, it´s very much alive and is something very real.
Is nothing real or just illusion? :bugeye:

About antimusic then, what would it sound like, are there any sound at all that cannot be classified as music? :p

For the material the etheral is like nothingness since there is no substance within. The ultimate nothingness is the off-position. Where nothing is at all.
The opposite of life. The etheral is not like that, as you say Bebelina. Ultimate nothingness could be like Tony´s Second death, non-excistance, no-life.

Trinity: Nothing, materia, etheric :)

The tao of excistance is life versus non-excistance. The etheral came first, life, then came materia and the human form. Being material means living in the wake of the etheral. The etheral is the dancing energies that make up the web of matter.

Kinda.. :)

Yes. A bored god giving grace to the ones he/she/it secretly despises...
Jolly good religion :D

But I get it now yes, thanks. God reaches out and doesn´t really expect a answer from the deluded ones.
But I gotta hand it to the bible, most coherent thoughts about existentialism can be found in one form or the other within it.
So the urge to read it and mutate it into my own bs is growing :D

*Originally posted by Bebelina
This qoute brings up many questions though, like who is "he"*

That would be me.

*and why does one interpretation says the " obstinate" and the other " those who oppose themselves"*

The Greek word is "antidiatithemai" which means "to place one's self in opposition, to oppose, to dispose in turn, to take in hand in turn, to retaliate."

It's possible that Swedes are unwilling to accept the concept that a person could contradict himself.

*and why would God ( who is good) do anything peradventure( isn´t that very arrogant? ) ?*

Your self-opposition may be so obstinate that nothing will change your mind.

*It somehow insinuates that God is not really interested in helping those people, maybe if he´s bored or something, he will grant them grace....:*

God isn't going to force you to change your mind until later.

*This I see as one very good piece of evidence of the human need for power, by interpretating cosmos in a way that only gains himself , and can give him power over other people by using made up religious threats, that has nothing to do with the endless love of God and the Cosmos.*

No power.
You can obstinately oppose yourself if you wish.

*Well then, so you don´t believe in the evolution of souls, so what do you think is he next step in existance after the soul stage of being? Nothingness?*

A new spiritual body for believers, nothingness and ashes for unbelievers.
It is really very, very simple.

*To go to heaven or hell?*

Hell is the grave, so everyone who dies goes there.
The choice is earth, via heaven, or ashes.

*To God or Satan.*

To God or to ashes.
At that time, Satan will also be ashes.

*Well, by reading those biblequotes, I´m beginning to think that Bible may very well be written by Satan, because it emphasiszes so much on controlling people.*

Oh, poor Angelina, having a bad day because she may have to change her mind?
Better now than later.

*I´m very well aware of what the expression "highway" means, but thanks for the further explanation anyway.*

Why did you ask?

*About antimusic then, what would it sound like, are there any sound at all that cannot be classified as music? *

Goooood question.
It would have to be something that destroys music, something like the way matter and antimatter destroy each other.

*Originally posted by MuliBoy
God reaches out and doesn´t really expect a answer from the deluded ones.*

Since the definition for deluded includes rejecting the truth, why would one want an answer from the deluded?
The answer would always be a lie.