Did god grant men free will?
Does god ever prevent men from exercising free will?
Should god prevent men from exercising free will for his divine plan, or preventing murder, or stuff like that? Does he?

I don't think God "granted" free will, I think that the point of the story of Adam and Eve is that Eve grasped self-determination.

I have written a bit about it, if you are interested in an elaboration.

Why do you ask?

What's your perspective?

Adam and Eve rebelled, as any of us probably would have, and God knew they would rebel, but let them, and that was against the will of God, so He does allow rebellion, but encourages people to change their minds.

In the Old Testament, God caused the Pharoah's "heart to harden" to serve God's purposes, but Pharoah probably thought it was his own doing.

I've heard many testimonies of people being miraculously saved from murder, missed shots at point blank range, jammed guns, unheard voices, etc.

I don't think God "granted" free will, I think that the point of the story of Adam and Eve is that Eve grasped self-determination.

I have written a bit about it, if you are interested in an elaboration.

Why do you ask?

What's your perspective?

I'm interested in an elaboration. I love hearing different p.o.v.s on this matter.

I think free will would have to be defined more specifically to answer that question.

We have free will to make decisions but we don't have free will to wish ourselves back from the dead.
So in the true sense of the phrase, God did not grant us free will. If you remove all the sugarcoating, the only free will he gave us was the freedom to accept Jesus or burn for eternity in hell.

According to the bible, Eve grasped self-determination only after persuasion from the serpent (satan).

I'm interested in an elaboration. I love hearing different p.o.v.s on this matter.

I decided to post it Here (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=65570), because I am looking for a more secular approach to the question, and the Comparative Religion subforum seems the appropriate place for that.

Adam and Eve rebelled, as any of us probably would have, and God knew they would rebel, but let them, and that was against the will of God, so He does allow rebellion, but encourages people to change their minds.
God knew, but let it happen anyway. So, then we could say that God is ultimately responsible for sin (and thus everything sin has caused so far). So shouldn't he take his ass to hell instead of unjustly sending any of us?

In the Old Testament, God caused the Pharoah's "heart to harden" to serve God's purposes, but Pharoah probably thought it was his own doing.
Sounds like a god I want to follow. :rolleyes:

I've heard many testimonies of people being miraculously saved from murder, missed shots at point blank range, jammed guns, unheard voices, etc.
Have you ever fired a gun at all? Apparently you don't know how easy it is to miss a target at point blank range. Nerves, adrenaline, bad aiming mechanics, among other things can cause this. It's harder to hit a target than you might think; especially if you're shaking from adrenaline.
Lot's of guns have jammed before. My rifle jammed more than once in boot camp and in infantry school. Guns jam because they are a man made invention and are thus, not perfect; subject to malfunction from time to time. Do cars ever fail to start, or suddenly stall when they're on the road?

I've heard many testimonies of people being miraculously saved from murder, missed shots at point blank range...

Jules Winnfield is a perfect example of this, though Vincent Vega disagrees.

I decided to post it Here (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=65570), because I am looking for a more secular approach to the question, and the Comparative Religion subforum seems the appropriate place for that.

It toook about a paragraph and a half of reading to realize that you are asking the same questions I've pondered for about three years now. Good piece. Good luck in getting a rational explanation to that though.
I'll be watching around for responses to that as well.

One Raven, you say that the God of the Bible exists, so what do you think is His real message to mankind?

Jules Winnfield is a perfect example of this, though Vincent Vega disagrees.
:roflmao:
I thought about making a reference to that!
"A miracle happened here today and I think you should fuckin' acknowledge it!"

One Raven, you say that the God of the Bible exists
Do I?
I wonder where you got that.

so what do you think is His real message to mankind?
I don't think that the God of the Old Testament had a singular message for mankind.
Perhaps I misunderstand the question.
Are you talking about this story in particular and the meaning of the story?

Please elaborate.

Good luck in getting a rational explanation to that though.


One Raven, you say that the God of the Bible exists, so what do you think is His real message to mankind?

See what I mean, Raven?
I wonder if you enjoy having your questions answered with questions as much as I do.

If not God, then who do you think 'dreamed up' the Bible, when and where do you say it was written, was it written in stages, or all at once?

If not God, then who do you think 'dreamed up' the Bible, when and where do you say it was written, was it written in stages, or all at once?

When you say “The Bible” I assume you are referring to the Tanakh, correct?
I can't say for certain who wrote it – as I wasn't there.
My best guess is that it evolved over time from oral allegories, legends and other stories told by the ancient Hebrews, which, as these things do, evolved from earlier stories told by the Sumerians and other peoples, which, as reason dictates, evolved from earlier stories of nomadic tribes of Africans migrating from what is modern day Ethiopia.

Why do you ask?
I’m not sure why this is relevant to this thread.
Please elaborate.

The Jews say where it came from, but you do not know, so the question is, are the Jews lying?

The Jews say where it came from, but you do not know, so the question is, are the Jews lying?

No, that's not the question at all.

Many Christians say that Jesus was the physical manifestation of the God of the Old Testament on earth.
I don't think he was.
That does not imply that I think they are lying.

Click, please (http://www.fallacyfiles.org/strawman.html)

The Old Testament, were the Jews lying about who put it on paper?

The Old Testament, were the Jews lying about who put it on paper?

I don't know.
I wasn't there.

What relevance is this?
Please elaborate.

You say it doesn't mean what it says, and that it really has some hidden meaning which has been somehow lost through the years, but you can't say when it was written, when it was supposedly changed, nor what it was like before it was changed, so what are you left with?

Some of the books of the Old Testament name their authors (e.g.. most of the prophetic books) while others are anonymous (e.g., the books of Samuel and Kings). Some books are compilations of many writers (e.g., Psalms, Proverbs) and other books name their author by a kind of "pen name" (e.g., the author of Ecclesiastes is identified as Qoheleth, "the preacher'').

http://www.mtio.com/articles/bissar35.htm

You say it doesn't mean what it says, and that it really has some hidden meaning which has been somehow lost through the years, but you can't say when it was written, when it was supposedly changed, nor what it was like before it was changed, so what are you left with?

I didn't say what was written was changed - where did you get that?
I am saying that I have an alternate view of how it is interpreted by many people and religions.

Believe it or not, I have spoken with a few Rabbis and Rabinnical students about my interpretation, and they agree with me.
I have also been told that interpretations in the Talmud support what I have said (though I haven't read them myself, so I can't say for certain).

What am I left with?
An interpretation that makes much more sense to me than the typical Christian interpretation and is supported by those who practice the religion which the book actually belongs to and outdates the Christian religion.
I am also left with an open mind, and many more questions.

What do you have?

IAC,

You are not clever enough to play Plato, and I'll not play along with your games.
Please refrain from trying to back me into a corner and simply be honest and open.
If you are, we could have some good discussions, I'll wager.
If you aren't, I'll take it as a sign that you have no desire to have any real discussions (because you already have your forgone conclusions, and are not interested in challenging them) and I will simply ignore you.
Thank you.

IAC,

You are not clever enough to play Plato, and I'll not play along with your games.
Please refrain from trying to back me into a corner and simply be honest and open.
If you are, we could have some good discussions, I'll wager.
If you aren't, I'll take it as a sign that you have no desire to have any real discussions (because you already have your forgone conclusions, and are not interested in challenging them) and I will simply ignore you.
Thank you.

IAC's intellectually laden one-liners do about as good a job of putting someone in a corner as trying to put out a skyscraper fire with a Super soaker.

Raven,

I finally read all of that post you linked on the first page of this thread. Kudos to you. That makes more sense to me than any explanation in the bible or by any apologist.
That begs a question for me then, once the child is away from the parents and out on his own, what happens way down the road when the child is staring their own mortality in the face? Does the 'accept jesus or burn for eternity in hell' rule still apply? Wouldn't a parent love their child(ren) as they were, regardless of the choices they make, and not forsake them to an eternal life of torture?

IAC's intellectually laden one-liners do about as good a job of putting someone in a corner as trying to put out a skyscraper fire with a Super soaker.
I know, but I am a stubborn son of a bitch, and I never give up when I should.
I keep thinking I'll get through to him, and he will finally play with an open deck and we can have some interesting discussions.
I'm stupid.

I finally read all of that post you linked on the first page of this thread. Kudos to you. That makes more sense to me than any explanation in the bible or by any apologist.
I'm glad you read it and I'm glad you like it.

That begs a question for me then, once the child is away from the parents and out on his own, what happens way down the road when the child is staring their own mortality in the face? Does the 'accept jesus or burn for eternity in hell' rule still apply?Wouldn't a parent love their child(ren) as they were, regardless of the choices they make, and not forsake them to an eternal life of torture?
Let me just say that if the God Jesus was referring to, Heaven and Hell actually DO exist, then I think (according to the words attributed to Jesus) a "good" Atheist will have a better chance of getting to Heaven than a Christian who behaves only out of fear of Hell.

I'm not saying that all Christians only behave out of a fear of Hell, I am just saying that those who do, will have a harder time getting into Heaven than someone who had no fear of Hell, yet still was a good person.

If Atheists can get to Heaven, then Jesus died and resurrected for no reason.

If Atheists can get to Heaven, then Jesus died and resurrected for no reason.

Jesus said that you can get to Heaven through him.
As I understand it he was saying that if you follow his teachings, you will get to Heaven.
Do you agree?

His teachings, as you are well aware, are covered in the Synoptic gospels (I reject the book of John, but that's a topic for another discussion) and (though debated) the extra biblical books (The Apocrypha and Gnostic books).
Do you agree?

I think his teachings are best summed up by the Beatitudes.
Do you agree?

If an Atheist lives his live by those same principles as the words he taught, and Jesus' goal was to get people to be "good" why would that Atheist be denied Heaven?

As for his resurrection...
Let me ask you this...
1.) If God told you that if you were to give away all your money, every last dime, and he will pay you back tomorrow by giving you an endless supply of money and anything else you ever need, what sacrifice have you made?
2.) If Jesus was God, as opposed to just a wise and great teacher, why did he ask why God had forsaken him when he was on the cross?

No, He said "you must be born again," and that He is THE way, THE truth, and THE life, and that "no man comes to the Father but by me," says Jesus.

You can't be good enough to please God on your own, you must have Jesus as your advocate to the Father, who paid your sin debt on the Cross, and that only by being "born of the Spirit."

Ok.

If Atheists can get to Heaven, then Jesus died and resurrected for no reason.

*************
M*W: Now you are finally becoming enlightened, but you still have a long way to go.

Better re-read that Med Woman.

If Atheists can get to Heaven, then Jesus died and resurrected for no reason.Yeah - that would be a pisser for you, wouldn't it! :)

"How can you lot get into Heaven?! I prayed my arse off for this reward - and what did you lot do other than lead a genuinely good life for no alterior motive?"

:D

Better re-read that Med Woman.

*************
M*W: I read it. Jesus neither lived nor died nor rose again. However, the sun performs these 'miracles' everyday. Atheists don't have a need to go to a mythological place in the sky. Atheists look up at the night sky to observe the stars, constellations and planets. We're quite content to be here on earth and see "heaven" for what it really is sans ancient myths.

Isnt this thread supposed to be about free will?

well to get it back on track, take a crack at this theists..

Free Will and an Omniscient God is a logical impossibility!

If God knows everything that is happening and will ever happen, everything is predetermined and thus you have no free will, you can never surprise God.

For Example, you have the choice of picking up a red ball or a blue ball..

God already knows that you will pick the red ball. You have no free will. God knows you will pick the red ball and you are helpless to do otherwise. And if you start for the red one but then pick up the blue one, God knew your plan all along and you had no choice but to pick up the blue one. If God knows the future, everyone is a puppet playing helplessly into God's predetermined plan for everyone.

God already knows who will believe in him and who wont. Thus I, as a nonbeliever, do not have the free will to believe in him.

Basically, free will is incompatible with an omniscient god.

*Not related to free will, but many of god's other attributes are incompatible. For example, God can't be omnipotent and omniscient, for if he knew the future that means he would be incapable of changing it. If he knows that an earthquake will kill hundreds of innocent people, he could intervene and change it so that nobody dies, but he would have known all along that he would intervene, so he is now powerless to not intervene. It all boils down to God(as omnipotent, omniscient, and granting free will) is IMPOSSIBLE!!

Free Will and an Omniscient God is a logical impossibility!

If God knows everything that is happening and will ever happen, everything is predetermined and thus you have no free will, you can never surprise God.
This is simply a semantic argument, therefore pretty meaningless.

Omniscient does not necessarily mean that he knows everything that WILL happen.
It means that he knew everything there is to know.
The future could be unknown and unknowable.

This is simply a semantic argument, therefore pretty meaningless.

Omniscient does not necessarily mean that he knows everything that WILL happen.
It means that he knew everything there is to know.
The future could be unknown and unknowable.


Jeff 152 makes a classic point about the incompatibilites of the most common ideal of God (allknowing, all-powerful, ever present etc.) How can God know everything, yet not know the future?

Perhaps the point your trying to make Raven, is that the illusion of free will is still free will to us humans...if not God. Although God might be able to see a predetermined future, the fact that we humans can't allows us to THINK we are making free will choices.

But the illusion of free is not free will. If God know everything, the he not only has perdetermined our lives before we were born, he also has no free will himself because his actions are bound by his knowledge of the future as Jeff 152 pointed out.

No. The point I was trying to make is that God can be omniscient, and still not know the future, simply because it is unknowable.

I can certainly conceive of a God that knows all there is to know, and not know the future, becaue that is not something that is to be known.

Omniscient is simply a word, and it's not even a word that appears in the Bible.

Did god grant men free will?
yes


Does god ever prevent men from exercising free will?
Should god prevent men from exercising free will for his divine plan, or preventing murder, or stuff like that? Does he?
you are mixing things here


Basically the divine plan of god is that all living entities utilize their free will to develop a loving relationship with him - refusing that (by our free will of course) lands us in the material world - kind of like a person in jail also has free will, but the nature of their environment greatly inhibits their ability to fulfill their desire

What about when god hardened the hearts of the Canaanites to prevent them from seeking peace with Isaiah and his barbarian tribes of Israelites, so that the Israelites could slaughter every man, woman, child and animal?

Is that not a gross transgression of the free will that god gave to man? And if god's willing to do that sort of thing, why can't he soften people's hearts so they don't, I dunno, shoot and kill 31 people?

If there's a god, there's no free will, if god exist He has no free will.

Hence the theist themselves made god an impossible phenomenon, when they tried to make him omnimax of all it's attributes.

If god be omniscient, then he has perfect knowledge of an outcome of a human decision, if an entity has foreknowledge of such a decision, then humans hold no free will.

If god is omniscient, he then can't change that which he knows that is going to happen, therefore if god can't change an outcome of an event, because he knows that event shall happens a certain way, and a certain way only, then god has no free will.

God contradicts free will:
http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/rm.html#FreeWill

Limitations of being Omnipotent - No Free Will
http://www.churchofreality.org/wisdom/does_god_exist/god/limitations_of_being_omnipotent_-_no_free_will.html

If there's a god, there's no free will, if god exist He has no free will.

Hence the theist themselves made god an impossible phenomenon, when they tried to make him omnimax of all it's attributes.

If god be omniscient, then he has perfect knowledge of an outcome of a human decision, if an entity has foreknowledge of such a decision, then humans hold no free will.

If god is omniscient, he then can't change that which he knows that is going to happen, therefore if god can't change an outcome of an event, because he knows that event shall happens a certain way, and a certain way only, then god has no free will.

God contradicts free will:
http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/rm.html#FreeWill

Limitations of being Omnipotent - No Free Will
http://www.churchofreality.org/wisdom/does_god_exist/god/limitations_of_being_omnipotent_-_no_free_will.html

Blah de blah blah.

I have evidence in the scripture of god taking away free will so his chosen people could continue with their genocide. I'd like someone to explain to me how this fits in with the qualities that lightgigantic and his ilk typically assign god.

yes



you are mixing things here


Basically the divine plan of god is that all living entities utilize their free will to develop a loving relationship with him - refusing that (by our free will of course) lands us in the material world - kind of like a person in jail also has free will, but the nature of their environment greatly inhibits their ability to fulfill their desire

Then that's NOT free will in the true sense of the phrase. It's limited free will, with conditions and consequences. You can even remove all the sugarcoating that the bible throws on top of this, and it boils down to:
You have the 'free will' to either choose Jesus as your savior, or burn for eternity in hell. <--that's just another way to say what you posted.

What about when god hardened the hearts of the Canaanites to prevent them from seeking peace with Isaiah and his barbarian tribes of Israelites, so that the Israelites could slaughter every man, woman, child and animal?

sinful acts tend to harden the heart - in other words a sinful person is empowered by god to have a hard heart

Is that not a gross transgression of the free will that god gave to man? And if god's willing to do that sort of thing, why can't he soften people's hearts so they don't, I dunno, shoot and kill 31 people?
hardening the heart depends on sinful acts and softening the heart depends upon not performing sinful acts - desiring a soft heart while having a range of sinful acts to take shelter of doesn't appear to do the trick

Mikenostic
“
Originally Posted by lightgigantic
yes



you are mixing things here


Basically the divine plan of god is that all living entities utilize their free will to develop a loving relationship with him - refusing that (by our free will of course) lands us in the material world - kind of like a person in jail also has free will, but the nature of their environment greatly inhibits their ability to fulfill their desire
”
Then that's NOT free will in the true sense of the phrase. It's limited free will, with conditions and consequences.
thats correct - in philosophical terms it is called determinism - basically its the same as free will, except that there are consequences according to how one utilizes their freedom - like for instance by misuse of free will a person performs crimes and is put in jail

You can even remove all the sugarcoating that the bible throws on top of this, and it boils down to:
You have the 'free will' to either choose Jesus as your savior, or burn for eternity in hell. <--that's just another way to say what you posted.
give or take a few details (I could pull apart the eternal hell thing), that is the essential extent of our free will - namely the choice to either accept god (or god's representative) or reject him, with concomitant reactions

If there's a god, there's no free will, if god exist He has no free will.
interesting that you open your post with a conclusion - but what are the premises?

Hence the theist themselves made god an impossible phenomenon, when they tried to make him omnimax of all it's attributes.
this is not a premise, but a further conclusion based on your opening conclusion

If god be omniscient, then he has perfect knowledge of an outcome of a human decision, if an entity has foreknowledge of such a decision, then humans hold no free will.
If I know that if you stick your finger in fire it will burn you don't have free will to do that - and if I am omnipresent, given that I can read your mind the moment you decide to stick your finger in fire - and if I am omnipresent - given that I can exist everywhere and be present both in and outside of you - can I not be fully in control of everything and witness and know your sticking of your finger in fire before your finger actually goes in?

If god is omniscient, he then can't change that which he knows that is going to happen, therefore if god can't change an outcome of an event, because he knows that event shall happens a certain way, and a certain way only, then god has no free will.
on the contrary, there is nothing that can over come god's desire - by desiring something to happen he can make it happen - given the state of the living entity in the material world, it is god's desire that the living entity comes to his senses, hence everyone meets with reverses in the pursuit of the perfect material life (even the apparently materially perfect people with beauty, wealth and everything envied by those who don't have it)
\

Adam and Eve rebelled, as As nor Adam or Eve knew rebelling was wrong (they didn't know right from wrong and therefor couldn't possible know disobeying this pick of a God-head would get them in trouble) it's all BS :p


As to free will, if God knows what your choice will be then you have no choice. Monotheists will say that God is an "observer" and that really you made the choice and God is just watching, but the fact is if God knows all choices then you do not have the freedom to do anything other than what God knows you will do. No "Free Will"

interesting that you open your post with a conclusion - but what are the premises?

On the premise that flew over your head, cause it's seemingly stuckupyourrectum!

OTH omniscient is my premise, has this flown over your head? If an entity knows an outcome of an event, it has no choice, since the outcome is predetermined. If this entity changes, the event then this concludes a mistake, not omnipotent, to change the event the reason may be because it didn't have knowledge of the outcome, so not omniscient either.

If an omniscient entity knows our choice cause they are predetermined, then we have no free will. Free will kills the concept of an omnimax entity, cause if such an entity exist, then we have no free will.

As to free will, if God knows what your choice will be then you have no choice.

If an omniscient entity knows our choice cause they are predetermined, then we have no free will.

You are both, of course correct.
However, as I said, I don't think one necessarily must know the future to be omniscient.

This is simply a semantic argument, therefore pretty meaningless.

Omniscient does not necessarily mean that he knows everything that WILL happen.
It means that he knew everything there is to know.
The future could be unknown and unknowable.
and
I can certainly conceive of a God that knows all there is to know, and not know the future, becaue that is not something that is to be known.

Omniscient is simply a word, and it's not even a word that appears in the Bible.

I'd like you both to respond to that.

In my debates with BeyonTimeandSpace, the entity god according to him knows everything that there is to know, correct? Then an event is known by such an entity. My argument suggest since the entity knows the event, he should also know it's outcome. Correct? if an entity knows an outcome of an event this implies foreknowledge of such an event, he knows the outcome, so if the entity changes any outcome of an event this would be considered divine intervention. If such a thing happened, then this entity apparently has made a mistake, thus omitting him of having perfect knowledge, since the outcome has been predetermined since time began, then divine intervention has occurred, this contradicts perfect knowledge of an outcome of an event.

Thus god has no free will.

If an entity knows the outcome of our choices, since the beginning of time, hence god transcends time correct? then this implies foreknowledge of such a decision, if such an entity know the outcome of that decision, then we have no free will, hence it's predetermined. Our decision to choose comes spontaneously thus unpredictable, if an outcome is known before it happens by an entity this is not spontaneous on our part, but a predetermined choice, thus we have no free will.

Thus god contradicts the concept of free will, if this god serves all the attributes of omnimax.

On the premise that flew over your head, cause it's seemingly stuckupyourrectum!
I gathered that was the aroma of your premise

OTH omniscient is my premise, has this flown over your head?
if you mean does your explanation of omniscient seem a bit askew, yes

If an entity knows an outcome of an event, it has no choice, since the outcome is predetermined. If this entity changes, the event then this concludes a mistake, not omnipotent, to change the event the reason may be because it didn't have knowledge of the outcome, so not omniscient either.

If an omniscient entity knows our choice cause they are predetermined, then we have no free will. Free will kills the concept of an omnimax entity, cause if such an entity exist, then we have no free will.[/QUOTE]

this however doesn't address what I brought up in the post- namely that if god is situated in the universe as an all pervasive entity, he can know what happens no matter which way you spring your free will - you just open with an ad hom and repeat what you already said

However, as I said, I don't think one necessarily must know the future to be omniscient.You mean God "knows" the position and state of each particle or wave of reality from every atom on "downward" in all dimensions?

What does it even mean to "know" all of this?
Where is the information stored?

To know everything is to have a record of all that IS as it happens.

To record ALL information you would need to make a copy or duplicate of the entire Universe (thus have all of it's information) for every single instant of reality. To do anything other than make a copy, it seems to me, would requite more information to record the information.
So copies it is.
Then the question becomes: is there infinity in an instant or can an instant be broken down into discreet units? If it can be, and lets assume there is a limit, then you would have trillions of duplicate Universes saved somewhere for each millisecond.

This "somewhere" would be one big motherf*cking backup external hard-drive in the sky..... called God.


OK, sure, I wouldn't think it so ... but maybe it's possible?

Michael

god for an "unknown entity" there sure as hell lots of advocates claiming to know all it's attributes!

How the hell can you explain a pervasive entity? God is up your ass? must be, you claim it's everywhere, so your rectum is a destination, god is everywhere so he's there too!

Wait a second Michael space itself is the computer. The hardrive though perhaps expired, along with it's creation. Seemingly cause space is a chaotic phenomenon and not a orderly entity like many theist claim.

If an entity knows or has foreknowledge of any outcome, at all, whether I decide to go left or right, the outcome of that choice is known "predetermined" then I have no free will.

Space, life itself is not a predetermined phenomenon. Life is a chaotic entity, humans are unpredictable just as space, like Michael mentions if all information is stored, then that's one big F*cking hardrive.

Thanks LG discussing with you only brings me closer to being a strong atheist, one who plainly just claims a god doesn't exist. From you I gather what type of entity god is, a pervasive, omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, omnipresent entity that contradicts it's very own existence, by the use of plain and simple logic!

Did god grant men free will?
Does god ever prevent men from exercising free will?
Should god prevent men from exercising free will for his divine plan, or preventing murder, or stuff like that? Does he?
ah the free will argument again,
read this
www.geocities.com/inquisitive79/vindicate.html

god for an "unknown entity" there sure as hell lots of advocates claiming to know all it's attributes!
omniscient, omnipotent and all pervasive - these are general charcteristics

How the hell can you explain a pervasive entity?
scripture is a good place to start

God is up your ass? must be, you claim it's everywhere, so your rectum is a destination, god is everywhere so he's there too!

SB 11.15.36: Just as the same material elements exist within and outside of all material bodies, similarly, I cannot be covered by anything else. I exist within everything as the Supersoul and outside of everything in My all-pervading feature.


If an entity knows or has foreknowledge of any outcome, at all, whether I decide to go left or right, the outcome of that choice is known "predetermined" then I have no free will. [/QUOTE
I guess you can't fathom how predictable you are in the eyes of god

[QUOTE]Space, life itself is not a predetermined phenomenon. Life is a chaotic entity, humans are unpredictable just as space, like Michael mentions if all information is stored, then that's one big F*cking hardrive.
either that or the extent of our apparent 'chaos' is quite miniscule

Thanks LG discussing with you only brings me closer to being a strong atheist, one who plainly just claims a god doesn't exist.
then that must make you an irrational atheist - here's why
to say that god does not exist requires all knowledge (omniscient) in all places (omnipresent) - since this challenges the human capacity, the atheist who makes this claim has worked themselves into a tight corner by maintaining an absolute negative

From you I gather what type of entity god is, a pervasive, omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, omnipresent entity that contradicts it's very own existence, by the use of plain and simple logic!
as illustrated above, your logic is neither plain nor simple

omniscient, omnipotent and all pervasive - these are general charcteristics

And you have evidence exactly how?

scripture is a good place to start

Which? there are literally thousands. Could the book of Zeus be a start, or Marduk maybe?

SB 11.15.36: Just as the same material elements exist within and outside of all material bodies, similarly, I cannot be covered by anything else. I exist within everything as the Supersoul and outside of everything in My all-pervading feature.


So god is an atom that resides in your rectum?

either that or the extent of our apparent 'chaos' is quite miniscule
By who's account? ain't a super perfect entity suppose to create a perfect universe? Couldn't it at least do that? Since most theist believe that humans are a bunch of fuckups since birth, "born in sin" couldn't this entity get anything right?

to say that god does not exist requires all knowledge (omniscient) in all places (omnipresent) - since this challenges the human capacity, the atheist who makes this claim has worked themselves into a tight corner by maintaining an absolute negative


To say a god does exist requires all knowledge (omniscient) in all places (omnipresent)-since this challenges the human capacity, the theist who makes this claim has worked themselves into a tight corner by maintaining an absolute negative.

It works both ways LG, either you got evidence or you don't. You just fell in my trap!

Godless
“
omniscient, omnipotent and all pervasive - these are general charcteristics
”
And you have evidence exactly how?
first comes theory - next comes practice - next comes realization
one should only talk of realization if one is ready to discuss (and perform) the topic of practice

“
scripture is a good place to start
”
Which? there are literally thousands. Could the book of Zeus be a start, or Marduk maybe?
all good places to start

“
SB 11.15.36: Just as the same material elements exist within and outside of all material bodies, similarly, I cannot be covered by anything else. I exist within everything as the Supersoul and outside of everything in My all-pervading feature.
”
So god is an atom that resides in your rectum?
that and a whole lot more


“
either that or the extent of our apparent 'chaos' is quite miniscule
”
By who's account? ain't a super perfect entity suppose to create a perfect universe? Couldn't it at least do that?
If there is a problem, I guess its not the universes

Since most theist believe that humans are a bunch of fuckups since birth, "born in sin" couldn't this entity get anything right?[/QUOTE
you are coming closer to the problem here
[QUOTE]
“
to say that god does not exist requires all knowledge (omniscient) in all places (omnipresent) - since this challenges the human capacity, the atheist who makes this claim has worked themselves into a tight corner by maintaining an absolute negative
”
To say a god does exist requires all knowledge (omniscient) in all places (omnipresent)-since this challenges the human capacity, the theist who makes this claim has worked themselves into a tight corner by maintaining an absolute negative.
actually to know god exists requires that god reveals himself - thats why you see that religions have not just a claim but a claim of a process as well (theory - practice - realization)

It works both ways LG, either you got evidence or you don't. You just fell in my trap!
its not clear why one would have to be as powerful as god to know he exists

By strict definition isn't a free will the freedom to allow whatever will happen, to happen. For example should I decide that I will go to the shop and I arrive there then I have been granted my will, but should I decide that I will do something more serious then we find a problem. For will to persevere my actions must remain a secret until such time as my will is executed, but should my will be known then it is possible to stop me. Hence a free-will relies on the will that is to be performed, and how it affects other people.

first comes theory - next comes practice - next comes realization
one should only talk of realization if one is ready to discuss (and perform) the topic of practice

The same would work for Lenny the leprechaun, but yet you deny it's existence!

all good places to start

Start here:
http://www.churchofreality.org/wisdom/introduction/


that and a whole lot more

Why would an atom that resides in your rectum require worship?


actually to know god exists requires that god reveals himself - thats why you see that religions have not just a claim but a claim of a process as well (theory - practice - realization)

actually to know Lenny exists requires that Lenny reveals himself-thats why you see that Lenninism has not just a claim but a claim of a process as well (theory-practice-realization)

Godless
“
first comes theory - next comes practice - next comes realization
one should only talk of realization if one is ready to discuss (and perform) the topic of practice
”
The same would work for Lenny the leprechaun, but yet you deny it's existence!
I think we have already discussed that and had severe problems with the theory stage that moves on to practical application

“
all good places to start
”
Start here:
http://www.churchofreality.org/wisdom/introduction/
so we are in a world where all prostitutes say they are virgins, where all persons selling whisky saying that there product is good - and they all say it is real too.
:p


“
that and a whole lot more
”
Why would an atom that resides in your rectum require worship?
actually it would call for changing the current mode of worshiping one's own backside and instead seeing the bigger picture


“
actually to know god exists requires that god reveals himself - thats why you see that religions have not just a claim but a claim of a process as well (theory - practice - realization)
”
actually to know Lenny exists requires that Lenny reveals himself-thats why you see that Lenninism has not just a claim but a claim of a process as well (theory-practice-realization)
now I guess you just have to bridge the gap from theory to realization - given that the only serious books about lenny you can find are craft manuals for st. patricks day, it seems you have a difficult task ahead of you

I think we have already discussed that and had severe problems with the theory stage that moves on to practical application

According to you, cause you fail to implement the process to know Lenny.


so we are in a world where all prostitutes say they are virgins, where all persons selling whisky saying that there product is good - and they all say it is real too.


So we are in a world where all religions say they are the one true religion, and where all sects deem themselves the chosen ones of god-and they all say everyone else is damned if you don't believe as they do!

actually it would call for changing the current mode of worshiping one's own backside and instead seeing the bigger picture

What's the big picture? That god is the BIG ASSHOLE?

now I guess you just have to bridge the gap from theory to realization - given that the only serious books about lenny you can find are craft manuals for st. patricks day, it seems you have a difficult task ahead of you

How wrong you are, you have not done your research.

The tying together ST Patrick's day and Leprechauns is a modern phenomenon, however the folklore of this little creature is being around since ancient times. It's myth I won't deny that, but so is your religion or any that you care to mention!!;)

Godless
“
I think we have already discussed that and had severe problems with the theory stage that moves on to practical application
”
According to you, cause you fail to implement the process to know Lenny.
does the process involve craft glue and scissors (be sure to reference your process in a historical continuum although)


“
so we are in a world where all prostitutes say they are virgins, where all persons selling whisky saying that there product is good - and they all say it is real too.
”

So we are in a world where all religions say they are the one true religion, and where all sects deem themselves the chosen ones of god-and they all say everyone else is damned if you don't believe as they do!
so therefore you cannot believe everything you hear, nor disbelieve everything that you hear - where does that leave you?

“
actually it would call for changing the current mode of worshiping one's own backside and instead seeing the bigger picture
”
What's the big picture? That god is the BIG ASSHOLE?
actually it means that your ass is not so important no matter how big you think it is

“
now I guess you just have to bridge the gap from theory to realization - given that the only serious books about lenny you can find are craft manuals for st. patricks day, it seems you have a difficult task ahead of you
”
How wrong you are, you have not done your research.

The tying together ST Patrick's day and Leprechauns is a modern phenomenon, however the folklore of this little creature is being around since ancient times. It's myth I won't deny that, but so is your religion or any that you care to mention!!
hence my original statement was correct

"I think we have already discussed that and had severe problems with the theory stage that moves on to practical application"
:D

actually it means that your ass is not so important no matter how big you think it is

You mean your ass since you claim god is an atom that resides in your rectum!

does the process involve craft glue and scissors (be sure to reference your process in a historical continuum although)


You would have to ask Snake about that he's the expert! :shrug:


so therefore you cannot believe everything you hear, nor disbelieve everything that you hear - where does that leave you?


Actually it leaves me where I am! Sure that mysticism is purely bull shit, and live by accepting objective reality!

does the process involve craft glue and scissors (be sure to reference your process in a historical continuum although)


No. We've already been through this. You're being either dishonest or stupid by asking what the process is considering I've already told you.

As for your bit in brackets.. why?

No. We've already been through this.


how your version of the world/history is right and google hits are wrong?

You're being either dishonest or stupid by asking what the process is considering I've already told you.
liar liar pants on fire

As for your bit in brackets.. why?
we've already been through this
;)


Godless

“
actually it means that your ass is not so important no matter how big you think it is
”
You mean your ass since you claim god is an atom that resides in your rectum!
get over it godless - your backside is really insignificant

“
does the process involve craft glue and scissors (be sure to reference your process in a historical continuum although)
”

You would have to ask Snake about that he's the expert!
I don't know - there is some stern competition from 6 year olds


“
so therefore you cannot believe everything you hear, nor disbelieve everything that you hear - where does that leave you?
”

Actually it leaves me where I am! Sure that mysticism is purely bull shit, and live by accepting objective reality!
or so you've heard anyway
:rolleyes:

LG for lack of better word! your DELUSIONAL! every bullshit you come out with is nothing more than rhetorical bullshit, made up! we only use your own argument against you, but your either too stupid to see it, or plainly idiotic, which is it?

I don't think God and free will can coexist philosophically.

Then again, who can say they have free will and not simply the illusion of free will?

It's also possible that the universe as we observe it is the 3-dimensional expression of a 4 (or more) dimensional universe. Have you considered that perhaps all possible outcomes/choices and consequences coexist, but we do not experience them in our neck 'o the woods?

Like that time you thought of slapping your mother across the face. You didn't do it, but the alternate you did, and thus sent that 3D universe moving in a slightly different direction through the fourth dimension.

Speculative philosophical thought, I know, but can you show me a proof that it is not so?

Nor can you show me proof that I have free will. If I did not, there would be no way to test it for testing it would violate the non-existence of free will, so it's likely your "test" would reveal (falsely) that free will exists when it in fact does not. The reason it would delude you into believing free will exists is that it was supposed to delude you as such.

Hence the problem with this eternal debate.

Gently Passing, Jet Lee's "The One" was only a movie, ti's not real, no existence of other multiverse within our universe has been shown to exist, thus irrelevant.

If you had no free will what compelled you to answer? You had a choice did you not? That is all free will is the ability to make that choice! ;)

Did god grant men free will?Providing god exists, men exist, and men have free will, yes.Does god ever prevent men from exercising free will?Not that which he granted, I would suspect.Should god prevent men from exercising free will for his divine plan, or preventing murder, or stuff like that?The divine plan probably encompasses man's expression of free will including the will to commit murder, and stuff like that.Does he?Not if we have free will. ;)

Did god grant men free will?
Does god ever prevent men from exercising free will?
Should god prevent men from exercising free will for his divine plan, or preventing murder, or stuff like that? Does he?God gave free-will so that it would surrender to His will.
Any sign of the ‘free’ in the ‘will’ will be punished by eternal damnation.
Other than that, everything Christians believe in makes sense.

LG for lack of better word! your DELUSIONAL! every bullshit you come out with is nothing more than rhetorical bullshit, made up! we only use your own argument against you, but your either too stupid to see it, or plainly idiotic, which is it?
grand conclusion - all you need now are a few premises to add to your ad homs
:rolleyes:

LG the premises you are clueless to understand, cause you have buried your head up on your rectum, for this blinds you, and you can't see the truth, and the truth is to believe in an invisible entity is a delusion! Thus you are delusional, this is what makes you deluded, you have no evidence, you have no clue how to convince anyone here that your entity exists, you belief is blinded by your head been buried up your rectum! I'm sorry it has come to this, but this is the truth!

LG the premises you are clueless to understand, cause you have buried your head up on your rectum, for this blinds you, and you can't see the truth, and the truth is to believe in an invisible entity is a delusion! Thus you are delusional, this is what makes you deluded, you have no evidence, you have no clue how to convince anyone here that your entity exists, you belief is blinded by your head been buried up your rectum! I'm sorry it has come to this, but this is the truth!You are wrong, my friend.
Lightgigantic’s head is buried in the rectum of the “correct” authorities and there he smells the fragrances of the “right” epistemology of the “ontology” of the “truth”, as it is given to him by the “correct” teachers using the “correct” methods and the “correct” texts.

Of course actually opening his eyes to the world is virtually impossible, being buried neck deep in their anus and having no access to the fresh air of his own senses.

sinful acts tend to harden the heart - in other words a sinful person is empowered by god to have a hard heart


hardening the heart depends on sinful acts and softening the heart depends upon not performing sinful acts - desiring a soft heart while having a range of sinful acts to take shelter of doesn't appear to do the trick

God has a special place in hell for liars like you.
You have no idea how much I cherish that fact.

Well, after reading the story of Exodus again I do believe than God gave man free will, but like everything that Free Will can be shaped. Thisk of people with Phobias induced by truamatic events. That one event cuases a normally rational person to lose all sense of Free Will when they are exposed to the trigger. Same can be said for foul weather, I've know plenty of people whose moods and thus decisions are influeced by dark skies.

So when Pharoah was going to let the Men go and worship, God went 'Dang, not good. Oh, let's do something and make him grumpy.' thus hardening Pharoahs heart.

I think your all wrong LOL

I'm into this stuff right now:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omega_point

"The hourglass of exhistence turned end-over end and you with it...a speck of dust".

LG the premises you are clueless to understand, cause you have buried your head up on your rectum, for this blinds you, and you can't see the truth, and the truth is to believe in an invisible entity is a delusion!

actually those are all ad homs, followed by your opinion

Thus you are delusional, this is what makes you deluded, you have no evidence, you have no clue how to convince anyone here that your entity exists,

at least I have a clue how to form an argument based on premises rather than ad homs - if you have managed to convince someone by such techniques, I would say that it indicates more the callibre of person you managed to convince

you belief is blinded by your head been buried up your rectum! I'm sorry it has come to this, but this is the truth!
On what grounds should we accept this? Your ad homs?
:p

As for what i think your case is - I think you have had severe emotional experiences with religion that has lead you to the path of atheism - thus you are unable to scrutinize religion except from the point of its worst possible stereotype - the result of these two factors is your somewhat colorful but sadly lacking posts

A - "Your head is up your ass"
B - "No, your head is up your ass"
A - "No, your head is up your ass"
B - "No, your head is up your ass"
A - "No, your head is up your ass"
B - "No, your head is up your ass"
A - "No, your head is up your ass"
etc etc

actually the stalemate often reached between the theist and the atheist is also mentioned

BG 2.69: What is night for all beings is the time of awakening for the self-controlled; and the time of awakening for all beings is night for the introspective sage.

Roman

“
Originally Posted by lightgigantic
sinful acts tend to harden the heart - in other words a sinful person is empowered by god to have a hard heart


hardening the heart depends on sinful acts and softening the heart depends upon not performing sinful acts - desiring a soft heart while having a range of sinful acts to take shelter of doesn't appear to do the trick
”
God has a special place in hell for liars like you.
You have no idea how much I cherish that fact.
whats the problem?
part of the sinful reaction for performing a sinful act is the increased desire to perform an increased sinful act - its the nature of lust.
God doesn't have a special place for persons who are ignorant of scripture, but people commonly wind up there by such ignorance ....

You are a hypocrite, and you know it, so why even bother, everyone here has seen it, has observed, yet you live in denial! BTW I know your a drunk, you lust for sex, and then come here and act all mighty high in your warped ethics. This is what makes you a hypocrite!

You are a hypocrite, and you know it, so why even bother, everyone here has seen it, has observed, yet you live in denial!
so you keep saying, yet when I ask you to refer to such instances of hypocrisy, etc you just spew forth more ad homs - what to do?

BTW I know your a drunk, you lust for sex, and then come here and act all mighty high in your warped ethics. This is what makes you a hypocrite!
trying to examine religion by its worst possible stereotype again?
:rolleyes: