For those that trust that there is a Heaven, when you die, if God were to ask you the question, "Why should I let you into My Heaven?", what would you say? What other anweres do you think He would accept?

Think well,
ISDAMan

Well, if you are Christian, believing that Jesus died for your sins, and accepting him as Lord is enough. Some religions have a deeds clause, which doesn't make sense to me. All you would have to do is do nice things to get into Heaven. And what about those that are weak or incompetent, and could not do nice things? They would be denied? I don't know that, but my assumption....

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"It was there, at the edge of the black abyss, that I found myself."
-Patrick Ashley

Well, if you are Christian, believing that Jesus died for your sins, and accepting him as Lord is enough.

Agreed.

And thank you ISDA man, by the way, what does your name stand for?

I have only read a little of your sermons but I thank you personally for shedding a little light in a dark world.

Adlerian

Adlerian,

Thanks for the complement. It means a great deal to me. I figured that if there were those that really want to know about Christianity, they could see it in action in the FNS’s. I had been a more active poster at one time. Because of a request from a friend, it seems that I should increase my participation again. I’ll post my response after I see a few more responses in this string. I wonder. Do you believe in a literal Heaven? What of God? What is your concept?

As for my name, it’s just sports related.

Pashley & Adlerian,

I can see you point. Still, taking it as a question from God, what would you say to Him in response? I’d like to see your heartfelt answer verses head knowledge (supposing you felt your eternity would be at stake if answered incorrectly). Also, what else do you think that God would accept from you?

Thanks,
ISDAMan

my response:

i'm sorry.

i'm not sorry that i was unsure he existed. he provided me with no assurances and no evidense, but did provide me with a logical mind which requires those things before i make a decision.

i'm not sorry that i was unsure what was the right path to follow. again, i was given no evidense, and cannot trust what other fallable humans tell me, also without evidense.

but i am sorry for all the times that i strayed from what i believed that path to be, even knowing my actions to be wrong.

i don't know if god exists, and i don't know what he's like, and i don't know what he wants from me. but for all the ways i was inadequate in his eyes, i'm sorry.

samus

samus,

Striking answer!!! I’ll reply later.

666,

You pretty much know ware I stand, but...

Hey man it's your heaven, you chose. If I have to come up with a reason you obviously don't want me or even care for me.

I would return with.

We both have all the time in the universe now. So shead some light on all the mystirious stuff and half truths.

Kinda gruff, but should get a goog long discusion going.


[This message has been edited by 666 (edited May 25, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by 666 (edited May 25, 2000).]

My response to the Almighty's question would be:

"For the same reason you wanted me to let you into MY life."

------------------
I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will fight, kill, and die for your right to say it.

First of, I’d like to say that I mean no harm to anyone. I’m sure you all know this by now. However, I’m going to have to lay it down straight and narrow. It’s the only way to be truthful.

Oxygen,

For the same reason you wanted me to let you into MY life.

This response will not due. The assumption of your own power is great. He wants you in HIS life. Though, it is commonly stated the other way around (letting God in your life), even by myself, it is a fact that God created us for His pleasure and His Glory. We can’t have anything to do with Him if He doesn’t bridge the gap between us first. He has made us and He is the one that has reached out to all that have gone astray. He gave you life and though He gave you charge over it, it was never your own. There will come a day when you will have to give an account for the charge you have been given. On that day, it will be told weather or not you have lived up to that charge. You will be rewarded for your faithfulness, which is your manor of living,… be it righteous or unrighteous in relation to the plan of God for your life. Pay attention to what I have to say to 6. It ties directly in to what I have said to you.

6,

Hey man it's your heaven, you chose. If I have to come up with a reason you obviously don't want me or even care for me.

O.k., let’s apply the same concept to your relationship with your mother. Suppose there are a house full of people and you knock upon her bedroom door. She has gone in for whatever reason of her own. When she asks, “Who is it?”, which is really to say, “Why should I let you in?”, does that show a lack of love on her part? Not at all! She has shown clearly that she and her domain is of value and that not just anyone can get in for whatever reason they want. You must pass her test of entry. When you say your name, it must be written in her heart as one that is acceptable to gain entry. In the same way, your name must be written in the Lambs Book of Life as one that is acceptable to gain entry to God’s domain. He and His domain has supreme value. It is hidden and kept away from just anyone. You don’t take your jewelry and just leave it out where anyone can get to it. You don’t just let anyone in on your personal affairs. You don’t just give your house key to everyone that asks for it. It is because of perspective of value that you protect these things. Even the more, though your mother would allow you in, it would only be after she has ensured that the things you should not see or have access to would be properly protected. Even within Heaven, there are still limits to be had. On the flip side, if you entered without permission, there would be conflict rather than the joy the acceptance of invitation brings. She makes herself available and listens to you. You ask to enter respectfully. She must first say, “Come in.” That’s how it works with God. He has made Himself available to us. Respectfully, by His plan, you ask for that relationship and the entry into Heaven that comes along with it. He must first accept you. It starts with Him and ends with Him. You are not the one in charge.

We both have all the time in the universe now. So shead some light on all the mystirious stuff and half truths.

There is nothing you can do to delay judgement. Neither do you make demands of the judge. He is the one presiding over the trial. Please, follow what I have to say to samus. It ties in directly right here.

samus,

i'm sorry.

Really?!?! Let’s see your definition.

i'm not sorry that i was unsure he existed. he provided me with no assurances and no evidense, but did provide me with a logical mind which requires those things before i make a decision.

First, you pass the buck to try and show that it’s God’s fault in that you would have it thought that He didn’t live up to His end. Second, you pass the buck in the age old claim of, “God made me this way.” Let me tell you this. It is a fact that God made man perfect and without blemish. Man brought on the sin and imperfection. Some months ago, I posted this in response to one of several questions by 6:

Q: Why does God want to be with us so badly after we die?
A: Try and build a computer from the ground up. I mean straight from nothing. You have to even make the resistors, capacitors, and what not. Painfully labour through the planning. Go through all of the soddering, wiring, and so forth. Personally design and select everything that you want to have in it as hardware. Design the OS from your own wisdom and give it life to flow through the cpu that you created with no help from anyone. Now, tell me. When it is all complete, is there a sense of satisfaction to be had? Would you not take time to admire the work of your own creation? It is a truth that you would be more fond of that computer than any other. Now, with the modem that you created, allow your creation to reach out into the world wide web. When that master hacker attacks your system, despite your safeguards, will you not be distraught? Will you not fight to get your creation back to it's original form? Will you not also make provision so that once you restore your creation, you can also keep the master hacker from ever attacking your restored creation again? We all understand, in terms of computers, the rational for virus cleaning and software upgrades. Well, God, having created us from the nothing up, is quite fond of us. He is willing to fight tooth and nail for us. He Loves us dearly and had that Love even before He made us!!! His goal is the same. He wants to clean the virus out of our system with the Blood of Christ. He also wants to upgrade us so that we can function as we were designed from the start. The upgrade is by His Holy Spirit living within us. When He fixes us, that is the point when His children die. We are dead to the ways of the world and that old virus called sin! AMEN!!! He raises up the New Man, Christian version 5.0!!! He'll go 0-Prayer in less than 2 seconds. He comes complete with GPS (Godly Positioning System). There's even free fuel and maintainance for life! God's goal was never to be with us after we die in the flesh. His goal was always to be with us IN LIFE!!!

There’s one thing I did not make clear enough. There’s one more ingredient. It’s called free will. We have it. We can’t pass the buck to Satan either.

i'm not sorry that i was unsure what was the right path to follow. again, i was given no evidense, and cannot trust what other fallable humans tell me, also without evidense.

Now, it's other people’s fault. How many bridges don’t you cross because they were made by man? Where’s the proof of safety? Do you eat hot dogs or some other processed foods? You do know that there have been bad batches that have sickened and even killed people,… don’t you? Has the fact that you know that there are liars as car salesmen on car lots kept you away from them? Do you question your doctor with the same intensity you do the things of God? How about your phone bill, do you scrutinize that? Well, if you won’t put forth the effort in those areas, where does the will to do so come from here? Now, don’t misunderstand me. The truth of God can stand up to any scrutiny. I invite you to test it. God’s Word does not fail. Still, the only reason you don’t want to get with God’s program is because of rebellion. You want it your way. Life ain’t Burger King!!!! If you choose to follow the wrong path when God has set His guides (Christians) all over the world to be a light to your footsteps, it’s only because you wanted to go your own way and seek your own pleasure. There is no way to blaze your own trail to God. Are you really going to let the fact that there have been some liars keep you from seeking, being ready to accept, and nurturing the truth? If so, you do yourself a great disservice.

but i am sorry for all the times that i strayed from what i believed that path to be, even knowing my actions to be wrong.

You acknowledge your imperfection. That’s wonderful. Still, who is culpable? If you refuse to allow Jesus Christ to bare your burden, you bare your own. It’s that simple! You are culpable.

i don't know if god exists, and i don't know what he's like, and i don't know what he wants from me. but for all the ways i was inadequate in his eyes, i'm sorry.

He has shown Himself to you in all of creation. He has revealed Himself to you in His Children. He has written Himself into His Word. What more are you asking for? What effort are you willing to put into knowing the truth. Sure, He has made Himself available. Yet, if you never ask, you’ll not receive. If you don’t seek, don’t look to find. God has taken the beginning and the end of the matter. He has left the middle up to you. What will you do with it? Will you knock on that door to ask for that relationship and the access to Heaven that comes with it and stand in expectation to hear, “Come in child.”?

Lastly, I have stated it before that it is far too late, at the day of judgement, to profess to be a changed person. Once the trial has ended, there is nothing you can say to the judge. When the verdict is read, your time has long since ended. That is the end of the proceedings. Only the reward is to follow. Will yours be Heaven or Hell?

Thanks for the wonderful responses,
ISDAMan

<HR>Here is the complete Q & A Below:<HR>

Q: Basically about the meaning of life. In your opinion why did God create humans?

A: Corp.Hudson's answer was actually accurate to a degree. God has not left us totally in the dark. We see through a glass darkly,... not a brick wall. To add to it, He creates because He is all good and good desires to not be contained up in oneself. There being no one else, He made plenty of someones to share good with.Who can know the whys to His types of designs. He's very creative.

Q: In your opinion what was the reason for this?

A: Same answer.

Q: Why the need for us to accept him?

A: A master hacker (Satan) has infected us with the worst software virus (Sin) known to ever exist. It's fouled up our cpu's (Minds) and will eventually crash our hard drives (Bodies). If we don't accept the patch (Jesus) from the manufacturer (God), we'll never process anything right and our best performance level (The lives we were intended to live) will never be met. It's funny. We wouldn't accept our own behavior from our computers. Yet, somehow, we expect God to accept this poor performance from us.

Q: Why does God want to be with us so badly after we die?

A: Try and build a computer from the ground up. I mean straight from nothing. You have to even make the resistors, capacitors, and what not. Painfully labour through the planning. Go through all of the soddering, wiring, and so forth. Personally design and select everything that you want to have in it as hardware. Design the OS from your own wisdom and give it life to flow through the cpu that you created with no help from anyone. Now, tell me. When it is all complete, is there a sense of satisfaction to be had? Would you not take time to admire the work of your own creation? It is a truth that you would be more fond of that computer than any other. Now, with the modem that you created, allow your creation to reach out into the world wide web. When that master hacker attacks your system, despite your safeguards, will you not be distraught? Will you not fight to get your creation back to it's original form? Will you not also make provision so that once you restore your creation, you can also keep the master hacker from ever attacking your restored creation again? We all understand, in terms of computers, the rational for virus cleaning and software upgrades. Well, God, having created us from the nothing up, is quite fond of us. He is willing to fight tooth and nail for us. He Loves us dearly and had that Love even before He made us!!! His goal is the same. He wants to clean the virus out of our system with the Blood of Christ. He also wants to upgrade us so that we can function as we were designed from the start. The upgrade is by His Holy Spirit living within us. When He fixes us, that is the point when His children die. We are dead to the ways of the world and that old virus called sin! AMEN!!! He raises up the New Man, Christian version 5.0!!! He'll go 0-Prayer in less than 2 seconds. He comes complete with GPS (Godly Positioning System). There's even free fuel and maintainance for life! God's goal was never to be with us after we die in the flesh. His goal was always to be with us IN LIFE!!!

Q: Why make us living humans then make us die in order for us to be with him in the first place if he really wanted to be with us, and not just put us through a test to see if we make the grade?

A: God's work, the work He put so much effort into, just like your own work, has value. To have value is to have a cost. God's system is a system of payment for this reason. The wages of sin is death. God did not design us to die. Sin, being malignant, had caused us degradation. We are tainted with it and our value is lost. Just as the tiny seed will grow into a great tree, the tiny seed of sin will grow into great destruction.

Romans 5

<FONT COLOR="BLUE">15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.</FONT>

Sin = Order to Mass Disorder

Jesus = Mass Disorder to Order

God still sees the value of what we were and what we can be. Incidentally, that's why God flooded the world. With man's heart continually upon sin, there was no longer any potential value in what He could be. He was rotten to the core. Enough of that commercial though. We were never supposed to die. We were always supposed to have the same intimate contact with God that Adam had prior to being booted out of the garden. God gave us a free will. He did not give us a chance to choose right and wrong. He placed before us the choice to choose right. However, the giving of a chance to choose right also contains the chance not to choose it. No other choice needs bee given. Furthermore, there was no special power in the fruit on that tree. God gave the right choice to follow His direction and stay away from that tree. Now that we find that it burns, we want to blame God for having the rule not to have anything to do with that tree in the first place. That's as foolish as a murderer saying that if it weren't for the laws against murder, he wouldn't have done it. It's that crazy! Yet, we use that same basically stupid logic in relating to God. Heck, we do it all over. Just look at everyone that wants to legalize drugs because they think that if it wasn't marked as illegal, there'd be no problem at all. Would you like a drug user to be your bus driver, surgeon, accountant, chiropractor, care giver, baby sitter, or judge? If God allowed just any old thing, He would be guilty of doing the same thing. He is working properly. We are malfunctioned. If, in our cpu's (Minds), we refuse to accept the upgrade (Holy Spirit) by way of His fix (Jesus), our hard drives (Bodies) are doomed to crash (Die) and scatter our data (Spirits) into oblivion (Hell). God has a recovery program that takes effect before the crash,... and PRAISE GOD that He will provide a New Body, one that is incorruptible, to those that have accepted the upgrade.

Fear the Day or the Lord when His righteous judgement will come and be wise to accept His salvation,
ISDAMan

[This message has been edited by ISDAMan (edited May 28, 2000).]

A philosophical quandary; to what heaven to we seek entry?

"Why should I let you into My Heaven?

Standing at the gates of the Summerland, I would be tempted to respond: Who are you to ask that of me?

But if the Mother insists, as mothers do: Because you invited me.

But if we're limiting this to the God of Christian tradition, I suppose the answer would be: "I can't believe that you brought me here just to waste our time and ask me that question; however, since God is not extraneous, we must assume that You, O Lord, have invited me to be here."

thanx,
Tiassa :D

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We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

[This message has been edited by tiassa (edited May 28, 2000).]

Tiassa,

"I can't believe that you brought me here just to waste our time and ask me that question; however, since God is not extraneous, we must assume that You, O Lord, have invited me to be here."

Poor assumption! Your freedom pass has been revoked. This is not some engagement that will end in an hour or even a day or two. An invitation can be denied. In reality, it is <U>appointed</U> once for man to die and then the judgement. The wonderful thing is that the outcome of the trial can be settled prior to the appointment. God would still love to settle your case out of court. Settle your case by way of Jesus, and all that needs be done is a reading of the decree. Face judgement on your own and we all know what is said of a man that is his own attorney.

The truth is an easy story to tell. It only comes in one version.
ISDAMan

[This message has been edited by ISDAMan (edited May 28, 2000).]

ISDAMan- I read your response to both myself and to 666. Very thought provoking. I see the deal, though, and if I may use your example of mommy dearest and her bedroom, I will try to illustrate what is essentially a matter of choosing the right words.

Mother, by asking "Who is it?", is merely verifying identity to ensure her safety and privacy. She is, as I am all too aware, mortal. God, in this scenario, is challenging me for the entrance to heaven. He is not merely asking who I am, he's demanding that I justify my reason for being there. He is, according to the faith, immortal and all-powerful. Why would he have the need to challenge me, or am I talking to Odin?( ;)) Odin I would expect to challenge me. I would think less of his faith if he didn't. But the Christian god is reported to be all-loving and all-forgiving. Perhaps the god in the scenario should be asking "Who is it?" In which case my response would be "One of your children who has lost her way and wants only to come home." (If I am talking to God, then my atheist standpoint would have been, in this scenario, proven unequivocably and dreadfully obviously wrong. I'm not holding my breath, though.)

Sidenote: If he insists on being confrontational about the matter, I'm taking the shot. He'll smite me like a gnat, but I'm gonna try to kick his holy a**. Maybe I'll wake up in Valhalla with a bunch of guys who like Heavy Metal gods and drink mead like it was water.

------------------
I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will fight, kill, and die for your right to say it.

ISDAMan,

Relationships are a 2 way street. To be with God is to be in a relationship with god. Just as I would not accept constant demands and confrontation from a girlfriend or spouse I will not accept this from a relationship with god. As this is what I see from the proposed question and through out the bible, I will push back.

When a mother ask "who is it?" she is not being confrontational she is simply trying to protect her modesty. If god is trying to protect him self from something that would directly translate into me having equal if not more power then him. In which case I would need to ask "Why would I want in?"

If the questions was changed to "Who is it?" I would simply respond "It's you!"

Q: Why make us living humans then make us die in order for us to be with him in the first place if he really wanted to be with us, and not just put us through a test to see if we make the grade?

A: God's work, the work He put so much effort into, just like your own work, has value. To have value is to have a cost. God's system is a system of payment for this reason. The wages of sin is death. God did not design us to die. Sin, being malignant, had caused us degradation. We are tainted with it and our value is lost. Just as the tiny seed will grow into a great tree, the tiny seed of sin will grow into great destruction.

I want to talk about this a little more because the first time I read it I saw something but wasn't to sure what I saw. Well now I see. :)


To enter heaven we must be free from sin. The wages of sin is death. Well we all die. So this would mean that in life and in death we are sinners (I hope you can see ware I'm going from here). So this would mean that no one is going to heaven and we are all going to hell. So lets pack up the gear and go home, there are no odds of winning.


Originaly stated by you to Oxy.
This response will not due

Are we to take it upon ourselves to determin god's policys?

ISDAMan,

For those that trust that there is a Heaven, when you die, if God were to ask you the question, "Why should I let you into My Heaven?", what would you say? What other anweres do you think He would accept?

Well, first, maybe I shouldn't even be sticking my nose in here because I don't necessarily 'trust' that there is a 'literal' heaven. Of course, I could be wrong.

What I do trust in completely is what I call the 'highest power' - as explained previously, to me, it is nameless and faceless.

But, if when I die, I find out that it is actually 'called' "God" and that there is actually a literal "heaven" and God were to ask "Why should I let you into My Heaven?" I would probably instinctively bow down in awe and say something like, "Well, actually God, I don't know for sure if you 'should' let me in. I trusted and accepted your will when I was alive and you never let me down, thank you! - So, I think I should do the same now. Whatever your decision, I trust and accept that it's the right one."

As I said - "something" like that.

Thanks,

Brian

isdaman,

okay, i'm going to ignore all the standard christian schlock you just posted and agree with brian. he's GOD. he's all powerful and all knowing. there ISN'T anything you can say that isn't either something he already knows or a lie. you can't argue with him and talk your way into heaven. you are either in or you aren't.

i would reply, but you wouldn't listen.

samus

ISDAMan--

The way I see it, the God of the Christians knows my heart, as such. He knows my deepest thoughts, He knows I whether or not I love Him. Therefore, His asking the question seems to be a redundant process, since he already knows the answer. Now, unless God is so extraneous as to insist on having a bended knee and an oath of fealty when He already knows the answer, it would seem that, by the time I reach such a point that He would ask such a question, I would have already been invited into His presence. Truly, the only other way I can explain God bothering with such a process is that He has a fetish for seeing the surprised looks on the faces of the condemned, but that's not necessarily a fair assessment.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

------------------
We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

ISDA
For those that trust that there is a Heaven, when you die, if God were to ask you the question, "Why should I let you into My Heaven?", what would you say? What other answers do you think He would accept?
Think well,


mmmmmm..........Sounds rather confrontational up front doesn't it?

Personally I don't think this question is being asked because God doesn't know you or is trying to put you on the spot. I think He would ask a person this very question for them to consider in a different way. That being, "Who am I to expect God to let me into heaven?"

I straight away thought of my first post into this place "OVERVIEW". If you have read this you will remember the question that was repeatedly asked of me, "Who are you?" "Who are you?" "Who are you?"

This was not a question asked because Jesus did not have a clue as to who I was, it was a rhetorical question asked of me to make me consider "Who am I in the presence of the Lord of all Glory?" "By what name can I be identified?" "What words would aptly describe who I am?" . My own name fell short, His question was a question that cut through every facet and every construct of who I considered myself to be, it cut to my heart and left me with no answer to give. The question penetrated every part of my being and showed me that there was nothing I could answer that was not already know. The question wanted me to consider my place in His presence, my name, that by which I am known, my deeds, my actions, my very character in the presence of Him. In His presence at that time I had no answer, my character was not His character, my nature was as alien to His holiness as ants living on the moon.

I think this is the question that God will ask, I think this is what ISDA is trying to get us to consider. Consider an encounter with the Lord of all Glory that will take place for every person who has inhabited this sphere. In that encounter, regardless of the question, it will be us asking ourselves this very thing.

"Who am I in the presence of God?" "What answer can I give that He will accept?" "By what name can I make myself know to Him in this place?" "By what right do I stand before Him?"

If you could only see what I see, know what I know, know what ISDA knows. Then you would understand the reason for his question.

Consider this:

Matthew 7:
21 Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will go into the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the pleasure of my Father in heaven.
22 A great number will say to me on that day, Lord, Lord, were we not prophets in your name, and did we not by your name send out evil spirits, and by your name do works of power?
23 And then will I say to them, I never had knowledge of you: go from me, you workers of evil.

I Never had knowledge of you, do you think Jesus actually meant He never knew them? No, Jesus was saying unless we act according to the Fathers will, according to and in line with God's very character and nature in the things we do then they are of no account to Him. Regardless of how great or how mighty they may appear, they are useless unless they are according to God the Fathers will.

Jesus said: "I only do and say the things that my Father does". These are the things that will bear us up through judgement, not anything we can answer, no not anything we have achieved, only the fruit of His presence in our lives.

This is the question, what is your answer?


Tony H2o


http://www.inspired-tech.com/dovebar1.gif

I would say:

Beacuse you are all forgiving and there by there is nothing I have done or haven't done which would prevent me from entering. Now if thats a lie then you are'nt the god you claim to be which pretty much would put god on my flawed level would it not??? Then I would have to say who are you to question me, and how did you make it in?

Tony,

Hmmm... You and ISDAMan see things and know things that you wish the rest of us could see and know? Yet, you seem to skirt the question and then ask us the rest of us:

This is the question, what is your answer?

As far as I can tell, I already answered the question.

So, at this point, the new question is - what's your answer to the question, Tony?

As a matter of fact, why don't you both take a stab at the ANSWER (you and ISDAMan)... Please, tell us, independently, how you would answer such a question?

Thanks,

Brian

From what I gather of the question:

"Why should I let you into My Heaven?", what would you say? What other anweres do you think He would accept?"

You're asking, "what did you do on Earth to justify Me letting you in?" That's what I am hearing.

Well, as a Christian, I didn't have to do any tasks to get into heaven. I DID have to accept Jesus as my saviour, and that's about it. The kingdom of Heaven is a gift, not something earned by doing things on Earth..."lest no man boast" as I recall....


------------------
"It was there, at the edge of the black abyss, that I found myself."
-Patrick Ashley

Pashley,

Well, as a Christian, I didn't have to do any tasks to get into heaven. I DID have to accept Jesus as my
saviour, and that's about it. The kingdom of Heaven is a gift, not something earned by doing things on
Earth..."lest no man boast" as I recall....

UMMM accepting him is a task. It seems that statment contridicts it self. In order to get into heaven you must do some thing for god, accept his as your saviour. Which on the surface doesn't sound to bad, but when you come to see that it means becoming a slave you see it a bit diferent.

pashley,

The basic premiss of the second question was to see if there are those that would think there is more than one way to Heaven. Second, It’s good to know that you are so well grounded. :D

6,

You are a slave to something no matter what. Men scour the Earth for women, jobs, games, and status symbols that they can become a slave to. I am a proud slave of Christ. It’s the chains of love that bind me. On the surface, life without God seems good until you realize that all you can do is be run over by it. When it’s all said and done, not a one of us will be remembered by men. Only what God has preserved will last. You are correct in that the human is obligated to do something in trusting. It is a fact that faith that takes no action is dead. However, God is the one in control. He is the beginning and the end of the matter. He only allows us some space to move in the middle. You don’t have to choose His paths. Still, you are a slave to your own desires. You are trapped in endless non-fulfillment and the confusion of sin. You are a slave to the circumstance around you. They shape your emotions and account for the actions you will and will not make. For the child of God, no matter how ridiculous the directives may seem by the standards of man, if it’s from God, it will end only in a blessing. We have a master we can trust. We have a loving master that we lean on in comfort, are supported by in strength, rely upon for wisdom, and take pleasure in serving. Tell me what good your master has done for you. God does for His children what Alan Greenspan, Bill Clinton, The U.S. Constitution, and money could never do. He loves us with pure love and frees us to love Him and others as well.

To all,

I’ve seen several good responses. I’m producing a reply right now. Please, give me just a bit of time.

A willing Slave To Christ!!!,
ISDAMan

[This message has been edited by ISDAMan (edited June 02, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by ISDAMan (edited June 02, 2000).]

It is written that if we seek the truth through Jesus Christ with humility and sincerety in our hearts we will find it. It's just like a physical or natural law, but it's a spiritual law. In other words, it's guaranteed. Just like an apple is guaranteed to fall downward from a tree due to the physical law of gravity. So if you seek, you will know the truth. The truth that Jesus is who He says He is. If you truly believe this, and take the time to understand how to know Him (which is easy with an open and humble heart and pure intentions), you will know Him. So if you TRULY believe unto Him, then you will seek Him in your life, and seek His will in your life, and communicate with Him, and know Him. THAT is how you get to heaven. Basically, it all boils down to not ignoring the obvious. There are really only two choices in life, to worship God, or to worship ourselves.

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You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

Originally posted by Lori:
It is written that if we seek the truth through Jesus Christ with humility and sincerety in our hearts we will find it. It's just like a physical or natural law, but it's a spiritual law. In other words, it's guaranteed. Just like an apple is guaranteed to fall downward from a tree due to the physical law of gravity. So if you seek, you will know the truth. The truth that Jesus is who He says He is. If you truly believe this, and take the time to understand how to know Him (which is easy with an open and humble heart and pure intentions), you will know Him. So if you TRULY believe unto Him, then you will seek Him in your life, and seek His will in your life, and communicate with Him, and know Him. THAT is how you get to heaven. Basically, it all boils down to not ignoring the obvious. There are really only two choices in life, to worship God, or to worship ourselves.

Lori,

Personally, I prefer to examine all sides of a question before reaching a conclusion. This is what is known as making an informed decision. However, the Christian way appears to be to only examine one side of a question (or to simply take it on faith). I could never live this way, and it astounds me that anyone can - and be perfectly happy with that!

I recently ordered a book from amazon.com which I hope to receive and begin reading sometime this week. It is called, "The Gods of Eden", and I'm certain it will prove to be a fascinating read, and will help to make sense of ancient events as they've been recorded in history. I'll be sure to keep you posted.



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www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

Who said I didn't examine all sides? This has been a life-long quest for me at 33, and will continue to be a learning experience until the day I die. I have examined in depth many major sources of "spiritual truth". What I learned is that spiritual truth only comes from one source, and no, it's not a Christian minister, but Jesus Christ Himself. Let me put it this way, until you have a literal conversation with Jesus Christ Himself, you will never understand that it is possible to do so, and if you never open your mind to the possibility, you will never have the conversation. Or something like that. Let me ask you this.....have you honestly and sincerely and humbly sought a relationship with Jesus? If the answer to that question is no, then I would deduct that you are the one who has not examined all sides. Would that be a fair assessment?

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You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

Lori,

Sorry, wrong again! From the time I was about 12 until I was in my mid-to-late 20's, I examined Christianity for whatever truths it might hold for me. I even attended a seminary for a year to study the New Testament. In fact, I would even venture to say that I gave Christianity a much fairer shake than any other religion so far! There was just too much that didn't make sense to me. And don't forget the fact that my mother and youngest sister are both born-again Christians who are constantly bombarding me with their religious beliefs. You can't even have a meal around them without being subjected to the Christian form of giving thanks. So yes, I've examined Christianity, and discarded it, thank you.

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www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

Searcher,

AGAIN huh? Sorry. :( But I still don't know if you understand what I'm saying. When I was young, my grandma bombarded me as well to no avail. I read the Bible to no avail. I went to church to no avail. Preachers, ministers, prayer meetings, the works, no cigar. That stuff is NOT what I'm talking about at all. I'm talking about actually KNOWING Jesus Christ Himself. Not just hearing every Tom Dick and Harry's opinion or interpretation of Him. He is real, and He's really available, and He really loves you, and He's really who He says He is. You can communicate with Him, and He will communicate right back. Have you done this? Do you know Him?

Also, what didn't make sense to you?

And, I'm not surprised that if you've been surrounded by overzealous Bible thumpers that you got turned off. I wish those Bible thumping judgement freaks would take a vacation every once in a while so somebody out there could actually get saved occasionally.

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You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

Lori,

Whenever I knocked on Jesus' door, he didn't seem to be at home - and yes, I did knock a few times in my life. I wasn't going to stand outside and knock forever, though - time's up on this one.

What doesn't make sense to me about Christianity is that there is only one path to salvation, and the penalty for not finding it, or not recognizing it if you do find it, is being condemned to burn in Hell for all of eternity. Nor does it make sense that one individual had to die an excruciating death so the rest of us can go to heaven. Something's wrong with this picture, big time!

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www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

I was listening to the radio today on my way home from work and they started playing that song that goes: What if God was one of us?
Just a slob like one of us?
Just a stranger on a bus,
Trying to make his way home?
It got me to thinking. What if I met God and he was just a guy in a t-shirt and blue jeans, wearing a tattered pair of Nikes? What if he moved mountains not by some funky omnipowerful ability to merely speak and make it so, but by rolling up his sleeves, grabbing a shovel, and digging away at it until, over the course of thousands of years, the mountain was moved? It's easy to create universes, planets, and life when you're all-powerful. But if he only had the limited powers and resources we have, what then?

I think a good bit of my lack of worship is that he really didn't do anything special. I have no reason to worship him. Judging by the descriptions, he could create the universe during commercial breaks, therefore this job was nothing for him. As far as giving his only son, it was a sucker bet. God knew Jesus was going to heaven and that the physical pain would end, then Jesus would go to heaven and rule by his side. He and Jesus couldn't lose.

But if God was one of us, and I saw that he built this planet not with deific powers but with his own two physical hands, if he had to work with the same limitations as we do, I might have a little more respect for him. At least I'd know for sure that he knows what it's like down here, and that it's not as easy as "Shape up down there." If he'd just get down here in the muck with us, if he had to take the bus from miracle to miracle, if God was one of us...I'd pick up a shovel and help.

As it stands, I believe that the act of childbirth is harder labor than creating a universe with super-powers, and most children love their mothers more than they love God.

Just a rambling little thought.

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I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will fight, kill, and die for your right to say it.

Hi Searcher,

If I may I would like to try and help with our understanding a bit.

You said:

What doesn't make sense to me about Christianity is that there is only one path to salvation, and the penalty for not finding it, or not recognizing it if you do find it, is being condemned to burn in Hell for all of eternity. Nor does it make sense that one individual had to die an excruciating death so the rest of us can go to heaven.


I'd like to go line by line here.

One path to salvation.

Correct. His name is Jesus.


Nor does it make sense that one individual had to die an excruciating death so the rest of us can go to heaven.

No it doesn't does it, it doesn't make sense that He should have to wear all my iniquity, it doesn't make sense that He should bear my penalty does it? We are born into sin, it happens because of us being born under a curse, a curse we as mankind brought on ourselves. Your absolutely right Searcher it makes no sense whatsoever that God should send His son to die in our place. That He should suffer and excruciating death to ransom us from the wages of our own sins. Why would God do that? It makes no sense at all. Perhaps it has something to do with Gods grace?

What also makes no sense is the fact that Jesus is not the only human to have ever been crucified or to ever have died a horrible and painful death. So to me it makes no sense that we as Christians make it sound that way. No mockery intended at all here, physically He died a death not much different than others who were cast alongside Him. But this is where it starts to make sense, although He died this death in the physical its what we didn't see and don't see that makes sense. The spiritual and eternal implications of what Jesus did were only glimpsed in the physical. Jesus had placed on Him as a sinless man all the eternal punishment that should have been ours, ours because we have sinned. Jesus was made perfect and walked perfect before His father God, and as a perfect man He took our spiritual bonds and paid them.

In the spiritual realm there was a battle that went beyond imagination. On one side were legions of Gods holy angels. On the other side were legions of Lucifers fallen ones, who were visiting horror upon horror on the son of man. Lucifer and his hoards thought that they had Jesus and that they were destroying Jesus. Yes Satan though it made sense, destroy this man, destroy God's son, destroy him and remove him from the face of earth then drag him down into the pit of death. Satan had it all figured out, he held the keys of death because they were given to him by man at the fall. Satan would use that authority he had stolen and destroy this man, this the Son of God. Satan would inflict upon Him, Jesus, the most excruciating and intense spiritual attack in order to destroy Jesus and Satan knew that God the Father could only stand and watch because Satan had authority to do so. Satan had the authority because he held the keys of death and every man, even God's Son had to suffer deaths embrace. The devil was beside himself with glee, he thought that he would finally have Jesus bow down before him, he hade failed once when he tempted Jesus in the wilderness and offered Jesus the kingdoms of the earth if He would but bow before him. Now however there was no offer of the kingdoms of this world, now Satan would force Jesus to bow before him in death, or would he? Satan's plan and attack found there climax in Jesus cry, "My Father, My Father, why have you forsaken me?" A point where God had to turn His face away from the suffering of His precious, innocent son as the sins of this world, as the terror and torment of Satan's attacks, as the pain and anguish of a tortured physical death were visited upon Him in a moment of infinite intensity. And at that moment Gods holy angels were watching in anguish and terror as they saw the innocent lamb of God being attacked and killed, both physically and spiritually. They looked to the Father for the order to save, but no order came, how could it? For Satan was acting within the authority given him by mankind and for God to counter that would be paramount to God going against His own character and nature. This has never happened and never will. Yet God's holy angels stood ready to strike, ready to release their master, yet the Father told them to stand their ground and all they could do was to watch and trust in the Fathers words. To them, the holy angel's the events unfolding before their eye's made no sense either. The sinless lamb of God, Son of God, being laid bare, being made a stench before them and the Father with the sin of the world. This makes no sense? Satan was within his rights to carry this out yet they, the holy angels could not see why the Father would allow it. They could not see, they knew not that the final stroke was yet to be applied, they knew not, Satan knew not, mankind knew not, only the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit knew. For if any other had known what was to happen next, if Satan knew, if mankind knew then they surely would not have crucified the Son of God, they surely would not have killed an innocent man, God's only begotten son.

Satan and his hoards bound and chained the spirit of Jesus and dragged Him to the bowel's of hell thinking that they were within their rights to do so. How wrong they were, for they had passed judgement which was reserved by God on an innocent man. Jesus had no sin, He had lived a holy and perfect life before the Father and neither Satan, death or any demon of hell had authority over that holiness. Jesus was inflicted by them not only because they were within their rights but because the Father allowed our sin to be placed onto Jesus as an eternal way of salvation. The only reason they had Jesus was because the Father planned it, the Son lived it and by the power of the Holy Spirit Jesus endured it. Because of the joy that was before Him Christ endured the cross, that joy being the way of salvation for mankind. As the holy and innocent lamb of God His sacrifice was acceptable to the Father as a sin offering for us all, and in that Holiness that was His Jesus took on death and hell, He broke the chains of death and destroyed the gates of hell and Jesus now holds the keys of death that He took from Satan and rightfully returned to the Father's authority.

Satan though he had it all worked out, he thought it made perfect sense, his plan was almost perfect. Almost apart from the fact that God is all knowing and the perfect one, not Satan. Satan did not bank on the holiness of Jesus, Satan did not factor in that attribute when he decided to try and destroy Jesus. Satan though his plan made perfect sense, in his arrogance and pride, in his twisted wisdom and intelligence, in his trust of his own abilities Satan thought that he had out witted and out manoeuvred God. How wrong he was and now he is the one saying this makes no sense.

God's plan of salvation is perfect, perfect in the death of Jesus and beyond that the resurrection and ascension of Jesus. Satan only saw as far as Jesus death, God saw beyond the cross of wood and saw the risen Son seated in majesty and glory at the right hand of the Father.

When we look at it superficially it makes no sense, it makes no sense because we do not look at it through Gods eyes. We do not look at it through God's character and nature. We do not look beyond the death and into the life that exists at the right hand of the Father.

Jesus did not die in vain. He did not die just so people could go to heaven. Jesus died to pay the price that was due by us, He died to ransom us, to redeem us, to restore us, to make us all that we can be and were created to be. Friends who walk with their creator in love.


and the penalty for not finding it, or not recognising it if you do find it, is being condemned to burn in Hell for all of eternity

I understand why people do not recognise what Jesus has done, its not explained to them correctly and in love. Let me say to you Searcher that God has given us all the ability to understand the truth. But I also realise that Satan has created a stew of delusion to water down the truth, he had presented us all with a mish mash of ideas and alternatives to the truth and we like a bunch of stupid sheep have followed the crowd and eaten of this stew. Each and every one of us has been delude, each and everyone of us has allowed ourselves to be deceived in some way. I know this well for I am like you, I search for meaning, I search for understanding, I search for truth. But I have learnt that my search needs to go beyond myself, beyond what may appeal to me, Tony. My search has found me asking hard questions of myself and God, my search has shown me to look beyond the surface, beyond the fanciful sayings, beyond the sugar coated happy feelings and self service. It has driven me to cry out to know the Lord that I love and serve in a way that goes beyond my own understanding, beyond myself and right into the heart of my God. It is a very uncomfortable place at times because if you really want to know the truth then the truth shows up a lot of things in your own life.

Searcher, God has and is and will continue to call out to you, call you to see who He is and who His Son is. Lori has told you this, she has asked that you put aside what man has said and go direct. Please do.


http://www.inspired-tech.com/dovebar1.gif


Lori,

Great to see you back, how's that six week old behaving? :D

Tony,

Wow again! I'll bet you're great behind a pulpit! I really mean that!

Yes, Jesus was definitely one of my favorite characters in the Bible. But the thing is - being half God himself (or even God himself - depending on who's telling the story), and at least in direct communication with the Big Guy in the Sky, he had it much easier than us mere ignorant mortals in most ways (except for that gory torture/execution thing at the end - bummer).

But how about Deborah (refer to Judges, Chapter 4)? Now there's someone I can really admire! She wasn't half Goddess, or anything like that to help her out - she was just a slob like one of us (thanks, Oxygen!). And she had to put up with attitudes about women that would be completely intolerable in today's world. But she overcame this handicap and served as a judge! Not only that, but she led an army into battle - and won! I'd love to read one of your nice long sermons about her - would you do that Tony? Would you tell us the story of Deborah, in your own spell-binding way - please? :)

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www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

Lori,

HI! How ya doing. It's nice to see you back.


ISDAMan,

I'm responding a bit late, but I wanted to think before I just let random thoughts fall out.

He only allows us some space to move in the middle. You don’t have to choose His paths. Still, you are a slave to your own desires. You are trapped in endless non-fulfillment and the confusion of sin.

I only brought up the point of being a slave, becuase most people forget that they allow them selves to be a slave to something. When we think about it's realy not being a slave when you chose it. You also assume that I am cunfused and that my way of life does not leave me felling fullfiled. How do you know this???? Do you live my life? Do you know my thoughts?

You are a slave to the circumstance around you. They shape your emotions and account for the actions you will and will not make.

I no longer see life like this. At one time maybe, but no longer. I do not have to just blindly react to circumstances around me . No one has to. Each and every one of us has the choice as to how we will react to it. Christianity and most other religons teach that there is only one right way to respond. They mostly play off of fear. I chose a different route, one of choice. For example the curcifition (SP?) of christ. The church teaches that this is strongest show of God's love for us (in other words telling you how to fell about it). I don't see it that way. I see it as teriable waste of life.

Tell me what good your master has done for you.

You assume that I have a specific master. What I may chose to submit to today may change tomarrow. The freedom of choice, true free will. Anything you chose submit to will have it's benifits and draw backs. What I get form my way of life / religon is comfort and strength.


God does for His children what Alan Greenspan, Bill Clinton, The U.S. Constitution, and money could never do. He loves us with pure love and frees us to love Him and others as well.

A single person or small handfull people can't do everything for you. They even may not want to do anything to better your life.

Tell me what has God done for betterment of mankind. I know you will you will most likely come back with what you belive he has done and how sin has ruined it. Lets look at the facts though. If he is all powerfull he sure isn't all inteligent for creating somthing that can be destroyed by somthing as small as sin. If he is all loving he would have never made anything that could ruin what he gave us or us.

-666

[This message has been edited by 666 (edited June 06, 2000).]

Hi Searcher,
If you do enjoy the "Gods of Eden", you might also want to try - Fingerprints of the Gods by Graham Hancock, Santha Faiia (Photographer) (Paperback - June 1996)
Enjoy.

Take care

Lori,

Kinda horning in on your conversation with Searcher...

I just wanted to remind you that I have also opened up the door for Jesus, but somehow he didn't accept my invitation. And please don't assume I had my eyes closed or wasn't TRUELY looking for the truth, because I was. I have NOT been bombarded with bible-thumping freak-o's, I have NOT been smothered by a overly religious family. I was allowed to form my own beliefs, and when I discovered I was "on to something" I lit a candle and invited anyone with the truth to come and visit me, I asked anyone, and yes, even mentioned Jesus by name in my mental invitation. What did I get? Not one God, but a God and a Goddess, a gentle and loving natural couple. Where was Jesus? Tending to his flock, I guess. Maybe I'm just not a sheep. :) And that's okay, I don't feel left out. I rather believe that each person is different, and will therefore find the divine in their own way.

If I were to somehow meet Jesus today, I'd love to sit him down with a cup of tea and talk about healing, and responsibility, and whatever else was on our minds. Do I think he's the Son of God? Yeah, sure, of course. We are all sons and daughters of the Gods. Do I think he's the ONLY son of God? Heck no, that doesn't make any sense. And I'm not the only one that thinks that way. Check out this link:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Bridge/1009/Notstmnt.htm

It basically demonstrates a lot of flaws in the New Testament as compared to the Old Testament. Check it out, Lori, I'm curious to see what you think of it. It really hits hard on the "trinity" idea, and how it's not even in the original version of the bible. I think it's all from a Jewish standpoint, but I think they're valid arguments anyway. Really, please take a look and let me know what you think. :) Tony, ISDA, Pashley, any of the Christian Crowd we have here, I really do want to hear what you guys think. Please bear in mind that I am generally unfamilliar with the bible though, so if you can stick to "plain english" instead of bible quotes, that would help me a lot too.

Namaste,
~MC

Originally posted by MoonCat:


Do I think he's the Son of God? Yeah, sure, of course. We are all sons and daughters of the Gods. Do I think he's the ONLY son of God? Heck no, that doesn't make any sense. And I'm not the only one that thinks that way. Check out this link:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Bridge/1009/Notstmnt.htm

It basically demonstrates a lot of flaws in the New Testament as compared to the Old Testament.

I did check it out. This is simply a Jewish person trying to play down the divinty of Christ through the use of alledgedly conflicting genealogy. The Jews also believe, I might add, that you can buy your way into heaven thru good works; and deny the divinity of Christ.That means if you can't do good works (say you are crippled, or mentally challenged), you are cooked. Never mind the other beliefs they hold. Just because this guy found some APPARENT conflicts, doesn't mean their are not explanations.

For instance, regarding the demise of Judas. Matthew says Judas hanged himself, while Peter tells us he fell, and was crushed by the impact. Seems contradictory, right?

Matthew does not say that Judas did not fall; neither does Peter say that Judas did not hang himself. A possible reconstruction could have been that Judas hung himself on a tree over a cliff. After hanging there some time, the rope broke or branch snapped, he fell, mangling his body. Maybe he was dead when it broke, maybe not. The Bible indicates that he did the hanging on a cliff that overlooked the valley on Hinnom, which does have several 25-40 foot cliffs with trees on the edge. So either story could be correct. Matthew say him hang. Peter may have seen his body on the rocks. The point is, this guy is trying to use APPRARENT contradictions to bash the New Testament.

Yes, we are all children of God, but we do not share in the divinity that Christ had. We are NOT on the same level as him. That would be equating God to man. No sir!



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"It was there, at the edge of the black abyss, that I found myself."
-Patrick Ashley

Hi 666! I'm feeling OK for the first time in a loooooooong time, thanks. How's your monkey honey? Does he need a spanking perhaps?

Oxygen,

I see that you listen to cheesey pop rock music, and I must say that I am extremely concerned for you. I think that we should start another thread, and try to help you see the light. Tee-hee-hee. :D

And what is with this "I can only respect God if He's a human being like me" BS? Are you professing to be a bigot or what? Please explain.

Tony,

Hi ya, buddy. Hey, I'm still practicing. Hopefully I'll get it right before all my eggs shribble up.

Searcher,

Sorry it took so long...I've tried to respond before and got booted off-line by this idiotic software I'm using. Grrrrr....but, anyhoo...

About the "only one path" contention...the way I see it is in terms of absolute vs relative truth. When I look at what I KNOW to be true about the universe, through our history, our science, and through my and our own life struggles, relative truth is IMPOSSIBLE. I guess what I'm saying is....you would have to agree that regardless of WHAT the truth is, there is only ONE truth. Would you agree with that?

Now don't get me wrong, I'm NOT saying that ANY human being, regardless of faith or anything else, KNOWS the truth in it's entirety, or probably anything even close to it. Only God knows the truth. I'm just saying that whatever that truth may be which only God knows, there can be only one.

Like for example, when you look at the universe, and all of the natural and physical laws which exist and operate within it, these laws are given, or constant, and we as humans have absolutely NOTHING to do with determining them or creating them. Right? I mean, you may wish that E=MCcubed, but it just doesn't, and there's not a dag gone thing we can do about that. You may like to believe that a water molecule has three atoms of hydrogen in it, but ask Tony, it's just not so, regardless of what you believe.

In my mind, it stands to reason that spiritual laws would be no different. They are given, and constant, and are truth, whether you would like to "believe" it or not you know? It's simple logic to me.

Also, when I bump my reality up against my faith (and this is a constant and never-ending process for me), EVERY SINGLE SOLITARY TIME, it matches up and explains everything in it's entirety. There are no loopholes, no loose ends, and no conflicting ideas (although MC addressed conflicting ideas or teachings in her post, which I haven't gotten to yet, but give me a minute). The faith is complete, and it explains my universe, my world, my life, my feelings, my intentions, my struggles, my humility, my pride, and the evening news. Every single time without exception. And I'm not even mentioning prophecy, but let's just say, there's no ignoring the fulfilled prophecy either.

And about salvation vs hell, it's just a simple choice Searcher. The faith defines hell as a place which is void of God and His influence. In this life, it's a simple choice you have to either accept Him or reject Him. If you CHOOSE to reject Him, and you don't want anything to do with Him and His love, then why would you even have a problem with the concept of hell? You choose to be without God, so you're without God. What's the problemo?

And about Jesus' demise...you know, there have been many, many, many human beings who have died much for horrible deaths than Jesus did. Not to say that I'm not simpathetic to His sufferring, as it has many times brought on tears when I think of it, but suffering and death in this life seems almost trivial in comparison to suffering and death in the afterlife. I would die for Him right this second if I had to. You can string me up on a cross, and pound nails into me anytime, as long as when it's over, I get to see my Father. But that's neither here nor there...

Ironically, the very contridictions that MC is referring to between the old and new test, has to do with the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Think about it...Jesus is called The Lamb for a reason. When He died for our sins on the cross, it changed EVERYTHING for us. It has everything to do with atonement. Before Jesus came, atonement for sin was conducted under the OT laws. Much of the OT is devoted to these various types of atonement, which is why many people today when reading it just don't get it. It seems brutal and barbaric and unfair and strict and unforgiving right? Well, to me that signifies the magnitude and importance of sin and it's affects on us and our universe. The sacrifice of Jesus Christ TAKES THE PLACE OF the old methods of atonement which are depicted in the OT. That's the whole reason He had to come. He is the embodiment of God's grace. I'm not saying that any of the spiritual law has changed, because as I've stated before, it is only logical that law is constant. But Jesus was sacrificed for us, so that we wouldn't have to be stoned or whipped or executed or whatever, every time we did something wrong. It all has to do with the law of cause and affect see. We all should know, based upon what we know about science and the way the universe works, is that every action has a reaction. And that reaction is compounded, and more far reaching than any of us are really aware; only God knows the true and total affect of our sin, or of our love. So, atonement is kind of "an equalizer" you know? Well, Jesus is the great equalizer of the universe now. Is this making any sense? I'm beginning to feel like I'm rambling...

MC,

I'm going to read the site you posted, and get back to you on those contradictions.



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You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

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[This message has been edited by Lori (edited June 07, 2000).]

Pashley,

What about the bit about the "Holy Trinity". That was the part that actually interested me the most. That site claims that this was pretty much invented due to the fact that the OT specifically states that God is ONE, and absolutely not human. What is your take on that?

Lori,

Gimmie, gimmie, gimmie! :D I want to know your take on this.

Tony, ISDA, you guys care to take a whack?

PS - I'm not trying to dump on you guys, just so you know. Since I don't really believe EITHER version, I don't have much vested interest in this. I am mostly wondering how YOU, the faithful, reconcile this. Personally, I can't.

Pash--

That means if you can't do good works (say you are crippled, or mentally challenged), you are cooked.

That sounds about right. It's consistent, though, with trends in the Hebrew theology.

If you can't do good works for psychiatric or medical reasons ... well, didn't God make you that way in the first place?

Part of the problem I'm perceiving here is that you might be confusing their theologies. I can't recall ever learning about Jewish heaven in the same manner as the Christian heaven. It's not quite the same concept, so it is regarded quite differently, from the fundamental perspective.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

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We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

Originally posted by Searcher:

I recently ordered a book from amazon.com which I hope to receive and begin reading sometime this week. It is called, "The Gods of Eden", and I'm certain it will prove to be a fascinating read, and will help to make sense of ancient events as they've been recorded in history. I'll be sure to keep you posted.



Please do. Fodder for threads!

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"Know Jesus, know peace; no Jesus, no peace."
-Patrick Ashley

Why is the bible based on the concept of
2 genders? What about an alien race out
there with a complex sexual reproductive
cycle made up of 5 or 6, or even 15
or 20 genders? I know God is a dominent
force, but why a He, or a Man? That
sounds kinda messed up to me. The bible
may be something else to you guys,
but to me it symbol of Ignorance.
Here we have more arising issues that
put up opposition to the Bible's many
points, and all the bible can do is
back itself up with things like:
1) Separate thinking being the work
of the Devil
2) Everything in bible is right because
it was written by God and the people
who were extremely close to God.
3) Visions and Prophets and all the
strange phenomena having to do with
the bible and God
4) Revelations, which tells of the
second coming of Jesus
5) The story of hell and heaven
and how you have to have Faith to
be excepted into heaven.
Sure, Lori and those other christians
may think up ways to counter this and
attack me by saying that my thinking
is the work of the devil and that my
spirit is possessed by the devil,
blah blah blah... (on and on forever).

The story of Genesis tells that the
entire human civilization began with
only a man and a women. But then what
about Genetics? Based on the studies
of Genetics, wouldn't that mean that
our entire race is nothing more than
a bunch of human inbreds? If our race
was built up on only two people then
how is it that we haven't been killed
off by a genetic disease yet, and
how come our entire civilization has
a great gene diversity?

As for being let into heaven, since when
is heaven a city sitting in the clouds?
People describe heaven as a magically
wonderful place where you can do and
have anything you want and it can even
be whatever you want it to be.
Adding the little concept of time into
all this, wouldn't the average human
get bored of it after an expanse of
millions upon millions upon millions
of years? Think of it this way. Your
lifespan is around 100 years. In heaven,
your lifetime (as the bible indirectly
says you have one) would be far greater
than ,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,
999 years. Think that sounds scary?
Ha-ha, don't stop there. Keep on rolling
the numbers, you haven't seen anything yet.
But then again, if time IS an illusion
that applies only to the physical universe,
then wouldn't that mean that you'd be
stuck in a timelessness world. What a
perfect paradise that is, no time.
Try and grasp that concept of no time.
No time is the same as infinity in reverse.
If Heaven is the ultimate relaxation spot
for those who were good on earth, how
could they enjoy it if there was no time
to enjoy it in?
Besides, if God were to ask me that
question, I could easily say:
"You created me, I was origenally from
you, I am of you so I belong to you."
If God is this all forgiving force that
is perfect wouldn't that mean that anything
less would mean that God would be imperfect?
Wouldn't revenge and anger (emotions that
symbolize negativity - things Christians
relate to the devil) bring God down to
the level of the Devil (which seems to be the opposite of God, who is Perfection;
which would mean that the Devil is ultimate
Imperfection). If God is perfect and God
loves us no matter what, then wouldn't
that mean that God would still accept us
into heaven no matter what we do during
our lifetimes?

ISDAMan and Tony,

After more than twelve days of looking forward to a response from one or both of you, I am inclined to ask again:

How would you answer the question?

Thanks,

Brian

Your absolutely right Searcher it makes no sense whatsoever that God should send His son to die in our place. That He should suffer and excruciating death to ransom us from the wages of our own sins. Why would God do that? It makes no sense at all. Perhaps it has something to do with Gods grace?

Tony,

If your God has so much grace - why was this bloodshed necessary in the first place? THAT'S what doesn't make sense! Why does this make sense to Christians? It might have made sense if God had suffered physical incarnation at least once per generation to speak to us (since most of us have such a difficult time listening to the God/dess within), and tell us what we need to know to achieve spiritual and physical health, happiness, and prosperity for all while alive on this earth, and to continue in this positive direction upon leaving our earthly bodies. But the idea that we need to know and believe that one particular person was God incarnate (and there were many who claimed this), and accept that he died for our sins, in order for us to be "saved" - that's just ridiculous to me! How are we as fallible humans supposed to know which of the hundreds or thousands who claim to be "The Savior" is telling the truth? Why would God do it this way?

------------------
www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

Xeno,

Three words for ya....ALIENS ARE DEMONIC.

MC,

Ok, I read most of the site that you posted. I must admit, not being a bible thumper myself that I can not contest most of what is said on this site. Some of it I can contest, as I thought it was very clear that a message or two was misconstrued. But for the most part, in a general sense, I find that the contentions are trivial and mean absolutely nothing when compared to the overwhelming abundance of truth in the gospel. See, the Bible is a weird thing. It's not just a book, it's a phenomenon in itself. I have experienced this phenomenon first hand, in that all of the times that I tried to read the Bible before I "got saved", it sounded pretty greek to me. I just really didn't get a lot out of it at all. I wasn't sure if it was the language or the message or me that was the problem, but I just didn't get that much out of it. But it says somewhere in the Bible itself that if you do not seek the truth in it with the guidance of sincere and humble intent, and the guidance of the Holy Spirit, that there is no way you will understand the truth in it. Would you try something for me? Try to look at the word with the intention (now really pay attention to YOUR INTENTIONS, as this is not easy to do or to control) of finding truth instead of with the intention of finding error. This will make all of the difference in the world. It's really weird, in that it really makes a huge difference in understanding. The same verses that I read before that I got absolutely nothing, or at best something trivial or superficial out of before, all of a sudden just spoke to my soul. And I found that the Bible can actually speak right to your heart. It's almost like it's somewhat subjective depending upon who is reading it and why, and that is basically how it is explained in the teachings themselves. I guess what I'm saying is that if you're looking for contentions, you will find them. If you are looking for truth, you will find it. MC, what are you REALLY looking to find when you read the Bible?

------------------
You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

Lori,

To be perfectly honest, I haven't ever just sat down and read the bible. So I really haven't been looking for anything in particular. I do intend to try to read it again someday, but haven't gotten that kind of time yet. It's not exactly an easy read, y'know!? I'm waiting for a decent "plain english" translation to come out...is there a good one of those out yet? I haven't been keeping up to date.

What you say makes sense, about you finding what you want in the book, but that's true about just about everything!! So basically, for me to find that the bible is true, I already have to think it is?!?!? Doesn't that defeat the whole purpose? Doesn't it seem like a book written by God himself would be powerful enough that a middle-of-the-roader like I used to be would get the message loud & clear?? I started to read the bible as a young teen, and it made no sense to me whatsoever, it just was confusing as heck, even the parts that I thought I understood seemed inconsistant and weird. I guess I expected more out of a book that was supposedly written by the most powerful being that ever did or ever will exist. I mean, wouldn't you expect a book written by a perfect being to be a perfect book? Why should there be any errors, any inconsistencies AT ALL?? Human error? Then doesn't that throw the rest of the "data" in question??

I have also been exposed to bits & pieces of the bible here and there throughout my life; in addition to my own failed attempt at reading it, my Grandma used to read some of it to me occasionally, I have been to church a couple times with friends, and you find bible quotes everywhere in this country, so I get the general gist of the story. But (again) to be fair, I've never gone cover to cover. There are some great stories in there, I must admit. But there are some great stories in other pantheons/mytical structures that are just as meaningful to me, so I guess that doesn't say much.

I guess what I've gathered though, is that even though there are errors and inconsistencies in the bible, that's okay with you? And I'm not trying to trap you or something here, I'm genuinely trying to figure out what "makes a Christian tick" so to speak.

What do you think though, about this website's claim that the "trinity" was an invention? I found that to be the MOST fascinating thing in that whole website. The minor contradictions (the geneology, minor details, etc) I don't care much about, but this really seems like a biggie to me. I mean, it is really the kingpin to the whole Christian faith!! Don't you agree? What's your gut reaction to that one? What's your logical reaction? Any idea what happened there? That one point right there is the biggest motivation I have actually ever had to read the OT & NT, it's really got my curiosity going now. I wish I knew greek so I could read the originals!!

What do you think though, about this website's claim that the "trinity" was an invention? I found that to be the MOST fascinating thing in that whole website. The minor contradictions (the geneology, minor details, etc) I don't care much about, but this really seems like a biggie to me. I mean, it is really the kingpin to the whole Christian faith!! Don't you agree? What's your gut reaction to that one? What's your logical reaction? Any idea what happened there? That one point right there is the biggest motivation I have actually ever had to read the OT & NT, it's really got my curiosity going now. I wish I knew greek so I could read the originals!!

MoonCat,

Yes, it's a biggie, all right! I've also read the same thing in "The Gods of Eden", by William Bramley, which states:

<font color = "red">Many of the changes and deletions to the New Testament were made by special church councils. The editing process began as early as 325 A.D. during the First Council of Nicea, and continued well into the 12th century. For example, the Second Synod [church council] of Constantinople in 553 A.D. deleted from the Bible Jesus's references to "reincarnation" - an important concept to Jesus and his early followers. Later, the Lateran Councils of the 12th century added a tenet to the Bible that was never taught by Jesus: the concept of the "Holy Trinity." The Christian church did not limit itself to changing a few ideas, it also rejected entire books. The church destroyed many documents and records which contradicted the radical changes that were made to Christine doctrine by these councils. Fortunately, the original writings which survived the editing process still offer valuable clues and insights into the life of Jesus.</font>

When they go around liberally changing what was originally there, you really have to wonder about the validity of the whole package, don't you think?

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www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

Searcher, Mooncat and Brian,

I am sorry for not responding to each of you sooner. I am very sick at the moment and have not the time to do so, I understand your questions and will get back to each of you as time allows.

Again, sorry if it looked like I was ignoring them.

Allcare

Tony

Tony,

Take as much time as you need, bub. Get well. :)

Tony,

I'm very sorry to hear you're under the weather - nothing serious, I hope? Take your time and get well, and I hope to see you back soon. Blessings.

------------------
www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

I cannot entirely explain the bible myself.
I have read it and gathered insights from it.
When I have read parts of the new testament,
I have found that a lot of it makes sense.
The problem was that I found it ridiculous as to the magnitude of it being related to
the afterlife.

---------------------------------------------

"Three words for ya....ALIENS ARE DEMONIC."

Lori,
:confused What was that supposed to mean?"
[/B]
---------------------------------------------

"I mean, wouldn't you expect a book written by a perfect being to be a perfect book? Why should there be any errors, any inconsistencies AT ALL?? Human error? Then doesn't that throw the rest of the "data" in question??"

MC,
I have to agree on you with that.
The bible was obviously written by people
so there's bound to be errors in it.
---------------------------------------------
I find that the bible speaks more of
fundamentals for society than it does for
spirituality.

Hi Searcher,

Thanks for the get well :) see I'm feeling better already. A fairly nasty chest infection with lots a green stuff...yucko :(

Anyway back to where we left off.

Originally posted by Searcher:
Wow again! I'll bet you're great behind a pulpit! I really mean that!


Thanks for the compliment. But nope I'm not a pulpit guy. I don't have any theological or seminary training either, I'm just your Mr Joe average with the wife, two kids and a mortgage who loves his Lord and Saviour. No illusions of grandeur or "divine" calling here apart from that of being a good servant, husband, father and provider. Man alive I could really get on a roll with this one. Essentially I'm not much different than the guy you probably walk past in the shopping centre and never notice.



Yes, Jesus was definitely one of my favourite characters in the Bible. But the thing is - being half God himself (or even God himself - depending on who's telling the story), and at least in direct communication with the Big Guy in the Sky, he had it much easier than us mere ignorant mortals in most ways (except for that gory torture/execution thing at the end - bummer).


Right there with ya, Jesus was and still is my favourite. I get where your coming from with the easier thing but I see it a bit differently. According to all accounts in the bible Jesus had to go through everything that we go through in order to be able to understand what being human was like. When it says everything I think it means everything and not just something’s. There are some versus I could quote you on this but you probably know them already. Personally I couldn't imagine serving a God that doesn’t understand what its like to be human, who doesn’t know what its like to fear, doubt, cry, laugh, hurt, love and everything else that makes us what we are. I know Jesus does understand me because He lived a life like we do. He had His highs and lows, in the garden He even doubted His ability to face that which would happen to Him at the cross. He had some amazing things happen during His ministry but all throughout He still needed the faith of a child in the Father. To believe even without seeing that His Father would never let Him down. Remember when you were a young girl and in your eyes Daddy could do no wrong? He was your pillar of strength, your tower of refuge, he was the one that watched over you, corrected you, sat with you, read with you, sat you on his knee and spoke softly to you. I'm writing this as I watch my son and daughter play together and I hope and pray that these things, these sorts of memories are the ones which lead them to understand when they grow older how the eternal Father loves them. I hope they understand and glimpse in me by the way I live before them the character and nature of the Father towards them. This is what Jesus went through like all of us, He had to grow and learn and understand just what the Fathers nature and character was towards Him as an individual and towards mankind collective.

I think and know from what I have learnt that Jesus underwent the same, exact same things we do. And having gone before us He has provided a way for us to have the same relationship with the Father that He had. A relationship of direct communion with the Father. Direct communion, a relationship which is far greater, much richer and deeper than direct communication. Communion which involves understanding, involves intimacy, involves more than just speech and communication. Its the reason that I can call Jesus the lover of my soul, its the reason that I have trouble trying to explain things that God has shown me, they are so deep, so full, so rich and fragrant that words of communication fail to bring forth the fullest understanding. Could this happen with a God that is not, or has not been human? Could this happen with a Lord who has no understanding of me as a human? Could this happen if that Lord had not made straight the way of salvation so that I as a fallen man could find salvation, that I as a fallen man could grow in my communion, grow in my love, grow in my understanding of all that my Father is, to know the very character and nature of God Almighty?

Mere ignorant mortals, I am mortal just like you Searcher. But I have decided not to live in ignorance, I have decided to not get caught up in religion, I have decided not to just look at the questions, I have decided to find the answers to my questions, I have decided to follow and love my Lord. I have decided to partake of His grace. I have decided to make my eternal decisions in the here and now and not the there and then.

I have decided to believe!

Sorry I went a bit off track there.


But how about Deborah (refer to Judges, Chapter 4)? Now there's someone I can really admire! She wasn't half Goddess, or anything like that to help her out - she was just a slob like one of us (thanks, Oxygen!). And she had to put up with attitudes about women that would be completely intolerable in today's world. But she overcame this handicap and served as a judge! Not only that, but she led an army into battle - and won! I'd love to read one of your nice long sermons about her - would you do that Tony? Would you tell us the story of Deborah, in your own spell-binding way - please? :)


Sorry my friend I'm not a full bottle on the lady, but she does sound amazing. (reminds me of my wife).

I get the feeling you like what I write from the last line above. I don't really set out to try and speak a lot of things, I basically say what’s on my heart and what I think the Lord would have me share. I do earnestly hope that people see more than just the words I type, so often its difficult to express the deepest heart felt feelings and knowledge in the English language. Maybe French would be better, that is by far a more passionate language. Wow here am I lamenting how hard English is and it just occurred to me that the poor old guttural Germans must find things pretty sad :D Ever heard the German equiv of I LOVE YOU compared to the French? Think about it, its kinda funny.

Getting back to the topic though, I think I sense a bit of a sexual equality thing here. Could be way wrong on that though, yeah even today women cop a hard deal even in developed countries. Sterotypical images we have are generally based on century's old skills possesed. Tell you what I would not like to be a woman and living in Pakistan at the moment. They don't get treated much better there that they did 2000 years ago when Jesus was alive. Its amazing when I read the accounts in the Gospels of how Jesus treated women compared to the majority of men in His time. The woman by the well - John 4:7, the woman with the issue of blood - Mark 5:25, the woman from Canaan - Matthew 15:22, not to treat them as mere objects of pleasure - Matthew 5:28, the woman who anointed Jesus - Luke 7:37, the woman as a person responsible - Luke 15:8, the woman caught in adultery - John 8:3, the woman as the bearer of life - John 8:3. All these women were and many more were treated as people by Jesus. He cared not for gender, He cared not for social standing, He cared not for race, Jesus cared for the soul of the living person that stood before Him.

Man, woman, child, foreigner, politics, social standing, dress, image, mattered not, what did matter was eternity, and where that person would stand in it.

Well I'll leave it at this for now.

Allcare

Tony

http://www.inspired-tech.com/dovebar1.gif

Originally posted by Brian:
Tony,

Hmmm... You and ISDAMan see things and know things that you wish the rest of us could see and know? Yet, you seem to skirt the question and then ask us the rest of us:

As far as I can tell, I already answered the question.

So, at this point, the new question is - what's your answer to the question, Tony?

Thanks,

Brian



Hi Brian,

Sorry for taking so long to get back to you on this one.

From “Overview”

WHO ARE YOU?
This event occurred half my lifetime ago when I was 17. To record the details of the experience in writing does not do it true justice. The closest thing that I can parallel it to would be what many may refer to as a near death experience, however I can not call it this as at no point did I even consider that I had died or was going to die.
This event took place in a remote central NSW town called Seals Rocks during a surfing safari with some friends. I had been surfing and had just hopped out of the water when I became violently ill, nausea, vomiting, dizzy, shaking and weak. After I had stopped being sick I managed to compose myself, change out of my wet suit into dry clothes and sit in the front seat of the van to try to get some rest.
The next thing I recall was that I found myself (and I mean myself in the real sense, as real as typing this record) in a tunnel experiencing the sensation of falling or sliding in a forward direction. The walls of this tunnel were rainbow coloured like oil on water and were moving past at high speed.
As this experience began a voice repeatedly echoed a question "WHO ARE YOU? WHO ARE YOU? WHO ARE YOU?" needless to say that I felt very anxious. All my senses were working in overdrive and the sensation of falling increased, it felt as though I was going faster and faster with the question "WHO ARE YOU? WHO ARE YOU? WHO ARE YOU? pressing in on me as I answered "I'm Tony, I'm Tony, I'm Tony". While this was happening I was trying to reach out and slow myself down against the walls of the tunnel, this was futile for no matter how close the walls looked I could not reach them and the speed and the question kept on and on. I can’t put a time span against these events everything seemed to be flashing past yet the tunnel went on and on. Time did not seem relevant in that place, I would measure it more in its intensity than anything else a relentless intensity which grew and grew and grew. Suddenly I found myself motionless in a large round room with an old wooden table and chair, oil coloured walls and the question "WHO ARE YOU? WHO ARE YOU? WHO ARE YOU?" echoing in my head. The intensity was relentless I had reached the end of my rope, fallen off and was screaming "I'M TONY, I'M TONY, I'M TONY, and sobbing, but who are you?
At this point the repeating question stopped.
I looked up from the table at which I was seated and there before me was an opening door, beyond the door there was brilliant white light. When the door was fully opened I could make out the form of a man wearing a long single piece garment. The light stopped at the doorway and did not enter the round room, neither did the figure. (The effect was similar to that created when you face towards the sun and hold your hand in front to shadow your eyes, the intensity of the light behind your hand causes it to appear as a shadow in front of you with a distinct outline).
The figure before me answered my question:
"I AM THE ONE WHO HELPS THOSE WHO HELP THEMSELVES"
I immediately found myself back in the front seat of the van.
I firmly believe that on that day I stood before Jesus, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. The question that was asked of me "WHO ARE YOU?" was not the question of "What's your name?" It’s a question that cuts through bone and flesh to the very heart of a man HIS SPIRIT, and asks the real question:
Who are you in the eyes of GOD? When asked that question what answer can you give?
At that point in my life I had no other answer but my name, a name that was foreign to God. I considered this and ask myself if I died today and the same question was asked what would my answer be?
From that point on I searched for and I believe found God. In the Gospels of the Bible I found recorded the history of a man and God, the words of Jesus became alive to me and are etched on my heart. I came from a back ground with minimal religious influence, my path of discovery occurred between God and me through the bible without a great deal of outside influence from a church or religion.
Did I get “saved” on that day? No (the light did not enter the room), but I got excited, scared, upset, happy and went through just about every other emotion possible. I had come into His presence, into an experience of something that I could not fully fathom or understand. I believe that my true point of conversion occurred as I was walking home from a party one night along the beach. I remember looking at the stars in the sky, the greatness of His creation and crying out to the heavens, “GOD I DON’T KNOW WHO YOU ARE BUT I WANT TO KNOW YOU, I NEED YOU”. It was a cry of a heart longing to repent, longing for forgiveness, a longing that I could not suppress and from that day on I have been following Him, not always feeling his presence even sometimes shying away and rebelling but when you’ve tasted of who he really is there is no hiding your heart from him.
I now attend church on a fairly regular basis with my family, however church or other people are not the cornerstone of my faith. Even today I would not label myself with a denominational tag I simply say that I’m a disciple of Christ – a Christian. Unfortunately even the true meaning of the name Christian has been lost due the fragmentation of the true Church and creation of denominations and titles, along with the many and varied arguments about doctrine.
When the Lord answered me on the day that I cried out “But who are you” I believe He was saying three things.
“I AM” – He stated “I AM” . If asked who I truly believe in my simple reply is: I believe in "I AM" Jesus Christ the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End, the one who was and is and is to come, the holy lamb of God. His death and resurrection. His call for repentance and baptism. His sending of a comforter, the Holy Spirit to indwell us as temples of the LIVING GOD. His close and intimate friendship.
“THE ONE” – Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Even though there was one figure before me they were all present.
“WHO HELPS THOSE WHO HELP THEMSELVES” – On the surface this may sound strange as the bible teaches selflessness, however in the context of salvation we need to help ourselves to His gift of grace. We have been given everything to lead us to a life of Godliness through Jesus Christ who loves us. If we really want to follow Him we have to help ourselves by taking up His cross daily. God Almighty has given us everything we need to discover who he really is through the Gospels, the Word and by the Holy Spirit of God. We need to take up the challenge and help ourselves by Repenting, Obeying Gods Word and Following Jesus, laying down our lives at the foot of the cross.
Since then I have discovered that the Bible is more than just a history book or a map to life, it is more than a book of theology and rules. It is God’s Living Water of Life and all who drink from it will never thirst again. In it we find examples of how men and women followed God, how they walked with him from day to day and KNEW HIM FACE to FACE. They knew Him first hand, not from any stories, not from any songs, not based on any other persons experience or instructions but from their own Love, Obedience and Yearning for Him and His Love for them.
My hearts cry is to know Him like this also. Not to have a relationship with Him based on vain imaginings or confining Him to my limited understanding, but to truly walk with Him and talk with Him the way that Adam, Mosses, Abraham all the prophets and patriarchs did. To see Him FACE to FACE.
It reminds me of the account in the Gospel of the Samaritan woman who was fetching water and met Jesus at the well. She went back to the town and told everyone about Him and many believed because of her testimony, however it didn’t finish there. The towns people went out to Jesus and he stayed with them for a few days. At the end of his stay the towns folk said to the woman, “We no longer believe because of what you told us, for we ourselves have heard from Him and know that He is the saviour of the world”
So the moral to this story? Firstly, don’t believe everything someone tells you without testing their character. Secondly, sadly there are not to many people left with solid character.
So what then? Who is telling the truth? Who has the truth? What is the truth?
Jesus said “I am the way, the truth and the life. No man come to the Father but by me”.
Jesus said “The day is coming when those who worship the Father will worship Him in spirit and TRUTH”.


Brian,

God no longer asks me “Who are you?” and on that day when I die and stand before Him I will be judged just like all others. However I will pass through judgement because I have made myself know to God by having a relationship of love with Him through the Holy Spirit and in the grace of the gift of salvation given me by Jesus His son.

Jesus has given me the following promises and through knowing Him and growing in my understanding and relationship with Him, growing in His very character and nature I believe by faith that He will carry through on His promises to those who believe, trust in, adhere to and rely on Him for their salvation.

John 14:2
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Matthew 25
1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


Brian I believe that God will say to those who have put their trust in Him, “Well done good and faithful servant”. It will not be a question of “Who are you”? or “Why should I let you into my heaven”? Your name will either be know or not know:

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Eternal decisions are made in the here and now, not in the there and then.

I have made my decision, what is yours?

Allcare

Tony H2o

http://www.inspired-tech.com/dovebar1.gif

Remember when you were a young girl and in your eyes Daddy could do no wrong? He was your pillar of strength, your tower of refuge, he was the one that watched over you, corrected you, sat with you, read with you, sat you on his knee and spoke softly to you.

Hi Tony,

Glad to hear you're starting to feel better. I don't have time for much right now - I get up very early in the morning, so I'll be very brief here. This almost brought tears to my eyes - not because it brought back fond memories of me and Dad, but because you've described a father-daughter relationship I've never had (but wish I did). My father was there, but he was very cold and very remote, and I feared him more than anything. His role in the family was basically co-enforcer of the rules, and co-provider. He didn't know any better, because his father died when he was just a child and he had no real example to learn from (anyway his father was kind of brutal when he was alive, as I've heard it). I'm sure my father loved me in his own way, though I never really thought so while I was growing up. I do remember when he was trying to teach me to swim, and he held me under the water until I thought my lungs were going to burst. Then, with all the strength my six year old legs could muster, I pushed up out of the water and hit him under the chin with my head - boy was he mad! He gave up on trying to teach me to swim after that.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that I can't really relate to your description of a father's love for his daughter, touching as it was. Sorry...

------------------
www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

This almost brought tears to my eyes - not because it brought back fond memories of me and Dad, but because you've described a father-daughter relationship I've never had (but wish I did).


Hey girl you stop it OK, or we’ll both end up flooding our keyboards, sniff, sniff.

I am sorry that this was the case for you, I can partly relate. My dad was more of an absent father than the ideal which I described. I think we both missed out on a bit of that fatherly bonding, not that my dad was bad to us or anything, we just weren’t close and as time moved on we grew even further apart. As I said I hope and pray that I can be the father to my children that my heavenly Father has been to me. I can understand why its so hard for people to see God as a loving heavenly Father, to relate to Him as a compassionate God and also a God who corrects those He loves. It is difficult when you have had no earthly role model to then comprehend the experience of a relationship with a heavenly Father. I speak from first hand experience here, all those nasty bad habits that I learnt from my father are being dealt with day to day by my heavenly Father so that I as a Christian father can show the heavenly Fathers true character and nature to my children. So that they will understand, so that they can know who He is. It goes beyond just reading them bible stories, beyond Sunday school, beyond brainwashing as some may think, it becomes my responsibility, my life becomes theirs. I have to in my life show them who He is and the depth of my walk with God, my relationship with the God I profess to love will determine how they also see Him, and even how they relate to me.

Side tracking a bit but sometimes we as Christians wonder why people don’t believe what we say. Why they can’t understand, why won’t they listen? May just be a case of people not seeing who God is in us, or in our households. May just be the case that we talk the talk before others but forget to walk the walk before our families. I often think to myself, Tony your actions will speak louder than any words you utter. Problem being in this place how do I show people who and what I really am? How do I apart from words? Anyway that was just me side tracking, sorry. :)

Mooncat asked a question earlier on in this forum about the trinity. She was asking what our take on it was. I would like to go into that in another post in the next few days if time permits because I think its fundamental to our understanding of who God the Father really is.

Until then,

Allcare

Tony H2o

http://www.inspired-tech.com/dovebar1.gif

Tony,

ISDAMan's main question was:

For those that trust that there is a Heaven, when you die, if God were to ask you the question, "Why should I let you into My Heaven?", what would you say?

Your most recent response to me was quite lengthy and most of it I have read before. None of it spoke to the question asked, other than your stated belief that the question would not be asked.

In other words, you are not going to answer the question.

You could have said that in one sentence. ;)

Stay well,

Brian

Tony, Searcher,

Knock it off you two, you're gonna get me tearing up next!! :) (Awh, dang, too late.)

I guess I have a small point, and some rambling to do, so