Genetic Link to Past life Accountability?
(Perhaps)...

I have had on ocassion, many unusual experiences occur during my own lifetime, which have lead me to search for the answers (a lifetime journey)
that most others, would be content with simply accepting things as they are perceived through their physical eyes without question beyond what
they are unable to explain.

It is my contention, although shared with many others as well, that we are spiritual bodies inhabiting physical bodies & not vice versa, as for the soul (no pun intended) purpose of evolving our spiritual, evolotionary development, and our presence upon this earth, and it's dimensional dwelling, is a form of "School"
(for lack of the vanacular)
and when we return to this cosmic "collective divinity" or (other) of sorts, it would be as if we were only away for a brief moment, yet our
experiences will be held in accountability , as for how we lived our lives accordingly.

Although inheritedly, I was brought up in the Lutheren Faith, I am not a religious man by nature, as I find it "contemptious" as long as man continues to sponsor religion in so many houses divided.

Religious sepratisim of this magnitude continues to spawn the greatest grapes of wrath, pertaining to social indifference, and further leads
us into a downward spiral of disinformation of the real truth of human origin, our purpose upon this earth, and our true destiny to become.

One of the most profound arguments surrounding "Past Lives" which centers
itself around the potential for what many of us have come to know as "Re-Incarnation" I believe may perhaps be a misnomer!

I believe that continuing R&D in the genetic field, may some day, (perhaps very soon now), proclaim that there is great potential that what was believed to be a past life, is somehow connected to a form of genetic memory imprint "downloaded" to our genetic tissue cells within the spectrum of what is now called "Junk DNA" and is responsible for these past life
experiences that many people have claimed to recall in dreams, or visions.

Could it be possible that we inherit the memories of our predecedent ancestors? and when we have these dreams, or visions of a past life experience, is it possible that we may in fact be looking through the eyes of our ancestors that lived before us? could they in fact be memories
of experiences that are stored in our genetic tissues, available for anyone to access at any given moment & with a little practice, could tap into this ability upon demand by their own will?

As modern day science & technology has progessed with genetic engineering, it appears that there is a gradual convergence of religion & science,
and as this convergence continues to progress, we may begin to get much closer to these questions that have riddled mankind, since our vey beginning.

Please share with us any questions, comments, or concerns you may have in mind pertaining.

No, but seriously.

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<i>Originally posted by Time/02112:</i>
I have had on ocassion, many unusual experiences occur during my own lifetime, which have lead me to search for the answers (a lifetime journey) that most others, would be content with simply accepting things as they are perceived through their physical eyes without question beyond what they are unable to explain.
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I have had similar experiences. For some odd reason, I feel an inordinately strong pull towards the Holocaust and the rise and fall (and probable rise again) of Naziism. I feel tremendous injustice in the way lives were exterminated and sometimes, on occasion, imagine myself to be in those situations where life was involuntarily revoked. <i>One</i> explanation could be that this is indicative of a past or former life experienced in Nazi Germany. Another explanation, along Occam's Razor, is that this is, instead, my very personality type reacting to historical events; injustice produces a very specific reaction within my psyche, thus, this could spark feelings of anger and supposed loss even though I may have never been there. Yet, it can be so strong as to allow my mind the possibility that I <i>may, indeed, have been there</i>.

I have to agree with your line of reasoning that states that this existence we have now can be construed as some form of school, or learning ground. And although I do not necessarily believe in a God of sorts, I can understand why some people would link an Earth-type existence with a terrestial school designed by God. However, I can also understand why reincarnation has a wide following as well. Reincarnation gives life a purpose beyond this life as well. Reincarnation, however, doesn't say, "Do this or go to hell" It basically says, "If you do this right this time, you won't have to repeat it again in the future."

<b>Time/02112</b>, you bring up a few genetic points which I thought were pretty good. The part about some of our thoughts being given us by our predecessors; certain cannibal societies ingest their dead relatives in the belief that the dead will be manifest in the offspring or the living. There are some things which I have looked for a scientific basis and have found none: certain feelings which seem germaine to certain acts (perhaps that's a scientific reason?).

At any rate, I do have to disagree with you on one point. Probably not a strong disagreement, but here goes. Although you conjecture that perhaps some people's past lives are nothing but ancestors passing along fragmented DNA strands down the line, I have to differ. Though this <i>is</i> an interesting point (which I will say a little more on in just a bit), it doesn't include those that think they are reincarnated from others which <i>passed on no offspring</i>. For DNA to make a jump from dead material into the living via a generation gap and no contact would be quite awesome if such were possible.

As far as the interesting point, I've always cultivated (pun intended) the idea of the dead being buried and literally pushing up daisies (and other fauna and produce perhaps). If humans were to consume (and I'm sure they have--solient green!) food which has been fertilized with human remains, what would be the ensuing result on the person? Any effects on the offspring? Would the DNA of the deceased be somehow incorporated into the "junk DNA" of the living?

Anyway, I thought your thread was interesting enough to reply. (I also enjoyed the time traveler one, BTW). This thread has definite potential at least for arguing for or against reincarnation, so hopefully it goes somewhere.

thanks,

prag

Hi Time,

I believe that continuing R&D in the genetic field, may some day, (perhaps very soon now), proclaim that there is great potential that what was believed to be a past life, is somehow connected to a form of genetic memory imprint "downloaded" to our genetic tissue cells within the spectrum of what is now called "Junk DNA" and is responsible for these past life experiences that many people have claimed to recall in dreams, or visions.

Could it be possible that we inherit the memories of our pre-decedent ancestors? And when we have these dreams, or visions of a past life experience, is it possible that we may in fact be looking through the eyes of our ancestors that lived before us? Could they in fact be memories of experiences that are stored in our genetic tissues, available for anyone to access at any given moment & with a little practice, could tap into this ability upon demand by their own will?

I see two problems with your hypothesis. (1) The source and reason for the junk DNA. (2) The conversion of genetic material to memory.

DNA has been evolving for millions of years through the process of random mutations. Some of these mutations resulted in useful improvements but most (consistent with randomness) resulted in useless dead-ends, i.e. the junk DNA that we find. A good way to visualize this is to picture yourself in a complex maze. As you move through the corridors looking for the center it is inevitable that most of your turns will result in dead ends. If the track of your route could be laid out as a map then you will see that most of your journey was of no value. DNA is the same, it is essentially a map where much of it useless.

Even if the junk DNA was somehow encoded pre-birth memories from ancestors then there is the problem of how these DNA components are transformed into active memories that can be experienced. DNA exists at the molecular level and all thoughts and memories are the results of neuron connections that exist at the cellular level, which are least an order of magnitude larger than their component DNA. Let’s also consider how memories are formed. A newborn human has effectively a brain with an initial set of neurons but with no connections. Although there are some that are pre-wired to ensure basic survival. Memories are formed from real world experiences. A baby has to learn everything from trial and error and the neuron connections that result are both formed and broken down as the child experiments with its surroundings. As some actions create positive reactions or pleasure then the resultant neuron connections are strengthened (literally by a kind of greasy coating). In this way memories and experiences are created as neuron connections. This process continues all your life even into old age providing you exercise your brain (use it or lose it). All memories you recall must come from your existing lifetime. Any alleged past-life experiences must also come from your current lifetime.

As modern day science & technology has progressed with genetic engineering, it appears that there is a gradual convergence of religion & science, and as this convergence continues to progress, we may begin to get much closer to these questions that have riddled mankind, since our very beginning.
I think here your perception of history is the opposite of actual events. Religion and science are rapidly diverging. History shows that most people over the past few millennia held firm beliefs in superstitions and religious faiths. Science has gradually eroded and continues to erode the basis for most superstitions resulting in an ever-increasing secular world. We also see from history that it is science that has led in the pursuit of knowledge and new discoveries; religions merely adopt what science provides, when convenient to do so. It follows then that science will be the first to solve the puzzles of mankind, and it is very likely that religions (organized superstitions) will eventually be eroded to zero.

Take care
Cris

Sincerely hoping I spelled that right.

<b>Cris</b>,

Your example of DNA being similar to that of a maze hits the mark, I believe. After studying a bit about genetics and microbiology, it is very difficult for me to entertain thoughts of irrationality, i.e. superstitions. Before I became extremely interested in religious topics, I was entirely engrossed in paranormal subjects. Perhaps, in retrospect, that was why it was so easy for me to believe in religious teachings. Because of this, my science-related teachings took a back seat, unfortunately. What I did learn, I'll say came from Asimov mostly. Not until the latter end of high-school did I realize that I had more than an inkling in all things logic-based. But it took a bit longer for that seed to germinate within my mind. When it did, I had learned a lot about the Bible, some other religious books, and a good deal of paranormal articles. If I could borrow your analogy and apply it to my situation, I'd say that I was running in this maze trying to understand reality through dead ends. But, as is often the case (at least with me), I usually learn through failure. But at least I learn, I guess. So, the dead ends for me would be religion and paranormal study. Although I will not consider the pursuits to be unnecessary or fruitless, I will say that they were relative dead ends.

In college, I delved quite a bit deeper into science and discovered that my mind connected with these rational concepts much as an enzyme mating with a protein (if that's an all right mixed-metaphor to use). It took a little longer for my beliefs to be 'eroded' away in the face of the weathering facts of science, but it did happen. Naturally, there remains a slight vestige in both categories of subjective reality (religious and paranormal) within my psyche, but I'm sure they'll be weathered away as well.

Sometimes I think that atheists and agnostics are misrepresented when others say, "Atheists pray there is no hell." Mainly, because hell is a non-factor. What atheists and agnostics hope <i>against</i> is the possibility of nihilation. It's not hell, or even heaven actually. It's <i>not</i> continuing to exist afterward. Especially if a close one is involved. Along those lines, Bertrand Russell once said (paraphrasing) that although he would prefer there to be an afterlife where he could meet up with his loved ones that have died and that will die, he knows there won't be an afterlife. While others root themselves in the hope that there will be an enjoyable afterlife, it is those that do not expect one that truly live admirable lives, IMHO.

As far as reincarnation is concerned (with me), I'm presented with a dichotomous divide within me. One side completely understands this concept, having spent a pretty good amount of time studying Eastern culture and philosophy, at least in a personal manner. Yet the other side sees it as ludicrous. Any possible life experience, as you say, can be traced to our current lifetime. I think it could be said that hereditary traits are underestimated sometimes. For instance, genes passed along due to heredity can most likely be proven to show whether a person has certain inclinations in life: be it to drugs, drink, women, indolence, religiosity, charity, ect. As of now, I have no physical data to prove that reincarnation exists, just as I have no physical data to prove that my recently deceased grandfather watches over me. If I believe he does, I also understand that that does not make it so. As to this, I haven't completely done away with this thought, perhaps mainly because I do not want to consider it just yet.

But I feel I am in a transition of sorts, with regards to my personal belief system. As much as I point out the inconsistencies in others' beliefs, I fully realize that others are doing the same with mine and they are fully justified in it. Hypocrisy is something to be despised, so I'll take what I dish out.

Though this is oversimplification to say so, death will be the great equalizer. If anything, it will be interesting to find out. But, I feel it will be as Kierkegaard once said in his essay, <i>The Unhappiest One</i>: a man goes to his own gravesite and discovers that his body is not there. He is upset because that means that he will live forever. He longs for the day when he can actually cease to exist. So, regardless if there's an afterlife or not, I think people will eventually cease to exist, whether it be of their own accord or not.

Anyway, this is rather long and you're probably looking for the relevance. I just wanted to comment on what you wrote (and what you didn't write in your response), which I think was great.

As a side note, sometimes when I read these posts and threads, I try to imagine the age group or at least the emotional intelligence of those writing and reading. Can't help but think that you, tiassa, Emerald, and Boris (and some others) have to be among the most well-read people I've had the privilege of crossing paths with, even if those paths are written thoughts.

thanks,

prag

Prag,

I enjoyed your personal story and I understand your quandary – be patient and think things out for yourself. Develop the techniques of critical thinking, these will help you determine and contrast truth and falsehoods. I finally rejected Christianity in my late teens but it took another twenty years to clear away much of the muddy thoughts. Now in my late forties I have a very clear idea of what represents truth and my direction in life. I am not very bright that’s why it has taken so long. But to compare me to Emerald, Boris, and tiassa, is not fair to them, I am merely a child compared to their very substantial intellects and knowledge. I draw mainly on life experiences rather than books.

Asimov – I’ve read everything he ever wrote (Sci-fi that is), I was quite upset when he died a few years ago.

You mention learning from failures – well I’ve learnt an awful lot J

As to whether to believe something or not: Distinguish between a hope and evidence. Is re-incarnation based on something that people would like to exist or is there evidence for it? You don’t have to conclude that something doesn’t exist but if there is no evidence then simply maintain a healthy skepticism. I would love there to be an afterlife but wishing for it will not make it happen if it doesn’t exist. Surviving death has been the most hoped for condition in the entire history of mankind and is the primary reason for the existence of every religion. Yet I have not seen any evidence for an afterlife. You must do your own search of course.

Best of luck
Cris

Subject: Scientists find biological reality behind religious experience


a quiet laboratory, Andrew Newberg takes photographs of what
believers call the presence of God.

The young neurologist invites Buddhists and Franciscan nuns to
meditate and pray in a secluded room. Then, at the peak of their
devotions, he injects a tracer that travels to the brain and reveals
its activity at the moment of transcendence.

A pattern has emerged from Professor Newberg's experiments. There is
a small region near the back of the brain that constantly calculates
a person's spatial orientation, the sense of where one's body ends
and the world begins. During intense prayer or meditation, and for
unknown reasons, this region becomes a quiet oasis of inactivity.

"It creates a blurring of the self-other relationship," said
Professor Newberg, an assistant professor at the University of
Pennsylvania whose work appears in Psychiatry Research: Neuroimaging.

To continue,
Goto/Gosub:> http://www.smh.com.au/news/0105/10/world/world8.html

Hey all
Thanks for the interesting thread time > :)
I have heard of one example of how the long-term and short-term memory gets muddled up.
More precisely that the Conesus mind uses the long term memory instead of the short term in a fluid cognition and thus while retrieving of info on that subject the time of storage gets inconclusive feed back
between the short term that has no recall of it.
i can understand this concept and believe all sorts of things are possible .......BUT
I will go out on a limb here mealy to try to prove a point that some things that do exist are truly WEIRD :)

i had a dream (and so you thought it would start the same... :P )
well in my dream i went into a particular petrol station and saw a certain person and a few other people (i am not about to name names ..sorry)
it seemed that it was a set-up of me given the people in the petrol station all at one time.
i felt very confused and angry in the dream and then it ended...
i spent the next few weeks thinking about the dream
and what i would do in that situation if it ever arose...
i decided on first occlusion that i would eliminate one of the people immediately on site in such a scenario!
i pondered this concept for another week
i then came to the point of conscience that i should be absolutely sure it was really them before i took a life.
(Yes this is all heavy stuff)
WELL now considering i thought about this possible event for at least 3 or so months in total with decisions being made in light of such things in that situation...
GUESS WHAT
It actually happened!
HOWEVER ... as i resorted to pre-programmed information bases and situational evaluation i took a few extra seconds (almost a minute) to examine
The particular person in detail only to find that they in-fact looked identical side on from a distance of 20 feet and exact from behind....so
as you may be aware i am not in prison and they are still alive!
AINT LIFE WEIRD :)
I try and keep an open mind and now attempt to follow a Buddhist doctrine in relation to interaction with the world around me.CAN YOU GUESS THE REASON FOR MY "VISIONARY" DREAM?????????????????????????
Peace ...love ... and misery to all greed merchants

We know that there are all sorts of radio signals and other energies spinning around the universe and we are only just beginning to recognize and understand some of them eg, neutrinos. I suspect that if a machine could collate and interpret all of these energies, we could have a map of the whole universe right back to the big bang.
By the same reckoning, I think it's possible that a similar kind of energy transferal is taking place in the macro universe right here on earth. That is, every need, thought and action by any earthly life form is continually transmitted out of the life form (or picked out by some invisible energy, which is continuously whizzing around the planet--or even the universe itself) and possibly transmitted to others, which are tuned into (or vibrating at) the same frequency (each life form has its own unique wave band, so no fear of an ants experience croossing over to humans, for example). This may explain (the concept of) reincarnation or past life experiences.

Cris, seeing as we're the same age I was just wondering if our paths have ever crossed before? I went to Holloway school, lived in Highbury and then ran a business in Parsons Green Fulham and lived in Putney.
In the early 70's I was in a rock band called Anvil and an Afro fusion band called Dalai Lama. Ring any bells?

...i'ts a real good movie, and it ties into some of the things discussed on this thread.

I strongly urge any of you people that have yet to see this movie to Go Out There to your local video store & Get It!

(you might want to call around first to see if your local video stores carry it, and if they do, ask them if they have a copy checked in in the store.)

"Alterd States"
WAY-COOL Movie!

*"MIRACLES OF MIND: Exploring Nonlocal Consciousness and Spiritual Healing."

(1998-2001 by Russell Targ &, Jane Katra.)

*"The Heart of the Mind : How to Know God Without Belief "
(by Jane Katra, Russell Targ )

Russell Targ is a physicist and author who was a pioneer in the development of laser, and cofounder of the Stanford Research Institute's investigation into psychic abilities in the 1970s and 1980s

Interested in learning to use your own psi skills? This book tells how government scientists taught normal people to perform Remote Viewing, and how you can do it, too!

What is remote viewing, and why were NASA, the CIA, and the Defense Intelligence Agency supporting your research in the 1970's and 80's at Stanford Research Institute?

During more than a decade at Stanford Research Institute, we discovered that ordinary people visiting our laboratory could learn to accurately describe and experience what was going on at distant places, even though the locations were hundreds or thousands of miles away. With practice, any person can learn to do what we named "remote viewing." This capacity shows that our human potential is much grander than most people suppose.

Our government sought to use talented remote-viewers for gathering information about Soviet weapons development during the cold war, but we are interested in teaching people to claim their natural abilities and incorporate them into their lives for peaceful uses.

2. Why should we be interested in remote viewing?

Remote viewing is one example of our access to what physicists call non-local awareness, and what a healer calls our spiritual community. Looking in on the Russians is actually an invitation to claim our ability as human beings to participate in a larger non-local world that is not limited by the ordinary constraints of distance and time. By quieting our random mental chatter, we can expand our awareness of who we are, and what we are capable of. Experiences of community of spirit reveal our inherent connection to each other, and empower us with the knowledge of our ability to affect the world we live in. These spiritual perspectives beyond the purely material offer us opportunities for more meaningful lives.

In addition, access to non-local awareness provides a toolbox allowing us to do many things that may seem unrelated, such as healing the sick, locating parking spaces, and even forecasting the stock market.

3. Were you ever able to tell our government's intelligence agency anything useful, that they didn’t know before you told them?

During the Cold War, one of our talented remote viewers, who was actually a policeman, drew pictures of a secret Soviet weapons laboratory, and accurately described and drew in great detail, to scale, the particle beam weapons systems under construction. Four years later, after the viewer had died, this information was verified by US spy satellites.

The detailed information conveyed in these enlarged drawings we have brought was considered to be highly valuable by special congressional committees as well as the CIA. This is just one example of hundreds of similar remarkable cases, most of which are still classified.

Our main interest is in sharing the fact that these abilities are available to us all, and can be developed for positive uses in our life, and we teach people how in our book, Miracles of Mind.

4. What does this kind of psychic ability have to do with the spiritual healing that you also talk about in your book?

We are all capable of both of these human capacities that entail mind-to-mind connections. Worldwide psychic research data from more than 50 years show conclusively that our awareness is able to transcend distance and time, and come back with useful information. In remote viewing, our mind experiences distant places and events. For the spiritual healer, this connection is achieved by surrendering awareness to God, and through this, making a mind-to-mind connection with the patient.

5. How do you know that this kind of healing actually works?

Several double-blind hospital studies have been done recently with AIDS patients, cardiac patients, and surgical patients. All of these have shown that the people in the prayed-for group had much better outcomes than the controls, for whom no distant healing was attempted.

6. What do you mean by non-local mind?

Non-local connections were first described by Einstein in the 1930s, and non-local mind has been discussed by Dr. Larry Dossey in his recent books. It refers to the Buddhist idea that separation of consciousness is an illusion. The data show that we are actually connected in surprising ways to points in space-time that appear distant to us. It is an important idea, indicating that we greatly underestimate the extent to which we are interconnected with each other.

7. If you really can look into the future, can you get information that is actually good for anything?

Yes. The two of us were able to use remote viewing to forecast changes in the prices of silver commodity futures eleven out of twelve tries. But, this was for science, and we were not actually trading in the market.

8. If both of you are able to do remote viewing, as you describe, are you both spiritual healers as well?

No. Jane has had more than twenty years of practice, in addition to being especially gifted in that area. Our experience and belief is that remote viewing and healing are naturally endowed abilities all of us possess. Developing these normal human capabilities entails learning to quiet our mind and focus our attention with clear intent."

9. How did Jane, as a university professor, become a spiritual healer?

Twenty years before she was a professor, Jane was given the gift of healing in a dream that was like a near-death experience for her, when she was in the Philippines on assignment to observe the famous psychic surgeons that were said to practice there.

10. Does your book tell us how to become a healer or a spy?

We outline how remote viewing works, so that a person will have enough information to practice with a friend and learn to do it surprisingly well. We give a lot of new information about spiritual healing, but we do not undertake to teach it here.

11. What does modern physics have to say about this?

We live in a world governed by Heisenberg’s uncertainty principle, Kurt Gödel’s famous incompleteness theorem, Einstein’s universe of non-locality, and the world of quantum-interconnectedness of physicist David Bohm. That leaves plenty of room for remote viewing. Our work has been replicated in labs all over the world, and we have published our results in distinguished scientific journals.

12. Do you have to believe in God to develop psychic abilities?

We think that God is a testable hypothesis, not something that you necessarily have to believe in. Even atheists can learn to do remote viewing, but they may be surprised to discover that they are part of a spiritual community that they didn’t know existed.

13. Does that mean that you think that psychic abilities are sacred or religious?

Not necessarily. We believe that psychic abilities are a natural perceptual capabilities that are available to us all, to incorporate into our lives, and greatly expand our awareness of the world we live in.

Dean Radin, Ph.D.
will speak to us about the findings of his online remote viewing/ESP research project.
Author of one of the most successful and comprehensive books on parapsychology research in recent memory, The Conscious Universe, Dean is the moving force behind one of the largest online remote viewing/ESP tests ever, located on his Boundary Institute website (accessible at boundaryinstitute.org or through www.irva.org). This is what he has to say about it:
"As of April 25th, we have recorded a total of 2.1 million trials, contributed by over 14,000 participants from 92 countries. In these tests we were interested in searching for possible psi talent, for testing hypotheses about individual personality, belief and environmental factors vs. psi performance, and for examining some ideas about perception through time."
Dr. Radin's bio

For sixteen years, Dean Radin has conducted experimental studies of psi phenomena in academia and industry, including appointments at Princeton University, University of Edinburgh, University of Nevada, and SRI International. At the latter he was a research scientist on a classified program of psi research. Prior to becoming President of the Boundary Institute, he was in charge of a psi research program at Interval Research Corporation in Palo Alto, California.

Dean Radin earned a BSEE magna cum laude in electrical engineering, with honors, from the University of Massachusetts, Amherst, and an MS in electrical engineering and PhD (1979) in educational psychology, both from the University of Illinois, Champaign-Urbana. For ten years, he was a member of technical staff at AT&T Bell Laboratories and later a principal member of the technical staff at GTE Laboratories, where he was engaged in R&D on a wide variety of advanced telecommunications products and systems.

Website:<http://www.boundaryinstitute.org>

Jeffrey Mishlove, Ph.D.
Author of the classic Roots of Consciousness and host of the weekly, national public television series Thinking Allowed, Dr. Mishlove will address the topic of whether remote viewing abilities can be learned. "Is there any evidence that the many programs now available for training remote-viewing abilities are effective? This is a question that has been of interest to me since I wrote my doctoral dissertation, Psi Development Systems, in 1979."
Dr. Mishlove's bio

Jeffrey Mishlove, PhD, has the distinction of holding a doctoral diploma in "Parapsychology" which is the only such diploma ever awarded by an accredited, American University. He received this degree in 1980 from the University of California at Berkeley with an individual, interdisciplinary program of graduate studies. He is also past-president of the California Society for Psychical Study and past-vice-president of the Association for Humanistic Psychology (AHP). This year he received the Pathfinder Award from AHP. Previous recipients of the award have included Jean Houston, Rollo May, Stanley Krippner, Lawrence LeShan, Ashley Montagu, Ilana Rubenfeld, Virginia Satir, Rollo May and Carl Rogers.

Jeffrey is author of the classic Roots of Consciousness (originally published in 1975, with new editions in 1993 and 1997) -- an overview of the history, science and folklore of parapsychology and consciousness exploration -- which has been widely used as an introductory college text. Psi Development Systems, a book based upon his doctoral dissertation, evaluates dozens of methods for training extrasensory abilities. His newest book is The PK Man: A True Story of Mind Over Matter. This book is based on a decade-long research project with an individual, Ted Owens, who exhibited an unusual degree of ostensible psychokinetic abilities.

He currently serves as Director of the Intuition Network, an organization of individuals in business, government, health, science and education who are interested in cultivating and applying intuitive skills. An anthology, Intuition At Work, was published by New Leaders Press in 1996 in cooperation with the Intuition Network.

Jeffrey has helped to create a new institution of higher education, the University of Philosophical Research that has recently been approved by the State of California to offer a distant learning masters degree in Consciousness Studies. He serves as the dean of programs for this college, and also teaches the course in parapsychology.

As host of the weekly, national public television series Thinking Allowed, Jeffrey Mishlove has pioneered the introduction of deep, authentic and thoughtful discussions in a broadcast medium noted mostly for soundbites and sensationalism. In this capacity he conducts interviews with leading figures in science, philosophy, psychology, health and spirituality - with a special emphasis on parapsychological topics. About 500 of these interviews have been broadcast since 1986 - reaching millions of viewers.


More reading...

*Miracles of Mind : Exploring Nonlocal Consciousness and Spiritual Healing by Russell Targ, Jane Katra

*River Dreams : The Case of the Missing General and Other Adventures in Psychic Research by Dale E. Graff, Dale F. Graff

*The Living Energy Universe by Gary E. R. Schwartz, et al

*Diary of an Abduction : A Scientist Probes the Enigma of Her Alien Contact by Angela Thompson, Ph.D. Smith, Angela Thompson-Smith

*Body Mind Spirit
by Charles T. Tart (Editor)

*The Conscious Universe
by Dean I. Radin

*Remote Viewing Secrets
by Joseph McMoneagle

*River Dreams
by Dale E. Graff, Dale F. Graff

*Mind Trek
by Joe McMoneagle, et al

*The Ultimate Time Machine
by Joseph McMoneagle, Charles T. Tart

*The Living Energy Universe
by Gary E. R. Schwartz, et al

*Remote Perceptions
by Angela Thompson Smith, Ingo Swann

ART BELL's guest last night Matthew Alper presented his book on the God Part of the Brain.

The materialist scientist attempts to explain all phenomena of human experience in terms of various levels of brain activity and evinces arguments to convince us (the ignorant masses) that all spiritual and religious experience is just self-deception. The "self-deception" explanation is undegoing a revival in terms of UFO abduction experiences as well.

Here is what Alper wrote on his website:

"For every physical characteristic that is universal to a species there must exist a gene or set of genes responsible for the emergence of that particular
trait. For instance, the fact that all cats possess whiskers means that somewhere within a cat's chromosomes there must exist "whisker" genes.

Of our own species, that all humans possess a nose in the middle of our face means that somewhere within our chromosomes there must exist "nose" genes that
instruct the developing fetus to develop one and in that very place. It's not as if the human nose could have developed anywhere on the body only, by sheer
coincidence, it consistently ends up in the middle of our face. Apparently, humans are genetically "wired" to develop in this particular way.

The same principle applies not only to universal physical features but to universal behaviors as well. Take, for instance, the fact that all honeybees construct their hives in the same hexagonal pattern. That all honeybee
colonies, regardless of whether they've had contact with any other, construct their hives in this identical fashion suggests that they are "hard-wired" to do
so. It's not as if, for instance, honeybees can build their hives any way they "desire" and it's only by coincidence that they all construct them in the same exact way. Apparently, honeybees are instinctively, that is, genetically "hard-wired" to build their hives in this particular fashion. Moreover, this would suggest that somewhere in the honeybees' brains there exists a specific cluster of neurons that function to compel the bees to construct hexagonally shaped hives. The same principle holds true for anything from a peacock's
instinct to display its feathers to a cat's to groom itself. In essence, any behavior that is universal to any species is, more than likely, the consequence
of a genetically inherited series of reflexes or what we call instincts.

The above principle not only applies to honeybees, peacocks, or cats but to every life form, including our own. The fact, for instance, that every human
culture - no matter how isolated - has communicated through a spoken language suggests that our species' linguistic abilities are genetically inherited.
Since our capacity for language represents a cognitive function, there must exist a very specific cluster of neurons within the brain from which our linguistic capacities are generated. As neuroscience has evinced, such "language" sites do exist in the human brain and include the Wernicke's area, Broca's area and the angular gyrus. Damage incurred to any one of these
language enabling sites will consequently impair some very specific language capacity, clearly demonstrating that our capacity for language is determined by our neurophysiology. Furthermore, this supports the notion that for all cross-cultural behaviors, there is a genetic component as well as a part of the brain from which that specific behavior is generated. If it's true that this principle applies to all of our cross-cultural behaviors, should we not also apply it to spirituality?

Humans: the musical animal, the mathematical animal, the emotional animal, is also the "spiritual" animal. In essence, every culture from the dawn of our species has maintained a belief in some form of a "spiritual" reality. Wouldn't this suggest that human spirituality must represent an inherent characteristic of our species, that is, a genetically inherited trait? Furthermore, being that spirituality, just like language, represents a cognitive function, wouldn't this suggest that our "spiritual" consciousness, just like linguistic, must be generated from some specific part within the brain? I informally refer to such a site as the "God" part of the brain, a cluster of neurons from which spiritual cognitions, sensations, and behaviors are generated. How else are we to explain the fact that all human cultures - no matter how isolated - have maintained a belief in some form of a spiritual/transcendental reality, in the concepts of a god, a soul, and an afterlife? How else are we to explain the fact that every human culture has built houses of worship through which to pray
to unseen forces? Or that every culture has buried [disposed of] its dead with a rite that anticipates sending the deceased person's "spirit" or soul onward
to some next or other plane, what we commonly refer to as an afterlife? Wouldn't the universality with which such perceptions and behaviors are exhibited among our species suggest we might be "hard-wired" this way? How about the fact that every known culture has related undergoing what we refer to
a specific set of sensations we refer to as mystical or spiritual experiences?

Based on social, psychological, and anthropological confirmation as well as the latest genetic and europhysiological research, The "God" Part of the
Brain explores the apparent correlation between spirituality/religiosity and the human brain. Just as all honeybees are compelled to construct hexagonally
shaped hives, perhaps humans are compelled to rerceive a spiritual reality...as
a reflex, an instinct. -And why would we have evolved such an instinct?

With the dawn of human intelligence, for the first time in the history of terrestrial life, an organism could point its powers of perception back upon its own being; it could recognize its own self as an object. For the first
time, when an animal knelt down to drink from the watering hole, it recognized its own reflection. Only humans possess the advanced capacity for
self-awareness. Though, in many ways, this capacity has helped to make our species the most versatile and powerful creature on earth, it also represents
the source of our greatest affliction. This is because once we became aware of the fact that we exist, we became equally aware of the possibility that one day
we might not...even moreso, that it's certain that one day we will not. With the advent of our species, with the emergence of self-conscious awareness, a
life form became cognizant of the fact that it is going to die. All we had to do was to look around us to see that death was inevitable and inescapable.

More terrifying yet, death could befall us at anytime. Any moment can be our last. All life is "hard-wired" to avoid those things that represent a threat to
its existence. When an animal gets too close to fire, for example, it reflexively pulls away. It is this negative stimulus, this experience we call pain, that prompts all forms of life to avoid such potential life threats.
Pain, therefore, acts as nature's electric prod that incites us to avoid those things which may jeopardize our existence. Among those animals higher up on the
phylogentic ladder, most particularly among the mammals, threatening circumstances elicit a particular type of pain we call anxiety. Anxiety constitutes a type of pain meant to prompt these "higher" order animals to
avoid a potentially hazardous circumstance. For example, a rabbit is cornered by a mountain lion. In such a situation, the rabbit is pumped with adrenaline,
charged with the painful symptoms of anxiety, all meant to incite the rabbit to most effectively escape from the source of its discomfort, in this case the mountain lion.

In its healthiest form, anxiety is meant to prompt an animal to avoid or escape a potentially hazardous situation. In humans, however, once we became
aware of the fact that death was not only inescapable but that it could come at any moment, we were left in a state of constant mortal peril, a state of unceasing anxiety - much like rabbits perpetually cornered by a mountain lion from which there is no escape. With the emergence of self-awareness, humans became the dysfunctional animal, rendered helpless by an inherent and unceasing anxiety disorder, all due to our inherent awareness of death. Unless nature
could somehow relieve us of this debilitating cognition, it's quite possible our species may have been headed for certain extinction. It was suddenly critical that our animal be modified in some way that would allow us to
maintain self-conscious awareness while enabling us to deal with our unique awareness of our own mortalities.

Here lies the origin of humankind's spiritual function, an evolutionary adaptation that compels our species to believe that though our physical bodies
will one day perish, our "spirits" or "souls" will persist for all eternity. Only once our species was instilled with this inherent (mis)perception that there is something more "out there," that we are immortal beings, were we able to survive our debilitating awareness of death. Here lies the origin of the "God" part of the brain.

Credits for this post is from the Author "Mathew Alper" and special thanks to an associate of our sat the
TAP-TEN Research Foundation who painstakingly took time & effort to type this at our forum, "Thanks Bill"...

Bill Hamilton
Executive Director
Skywatch International Inc
http://home.earthlink.net/~skywatcher22
http://www.starshipx.homestead.com


Now that you understand the underlying premise of
THE "GOD" PART OF THE BRAIN:
I hope you will be inspired to read on..."

I would like to hear comments from Alan, Regan, Anna, Amy, and
all you others about the premises presented here as they will have an impact of
all of our future studies. I will express my opinion as we go along. Suffice
to say now that I think the brain is vastly overrated as a causitive agent.
Matthew does not address new writings on Quantum Brain/Quantum Mind,
Parapsychological evidence to the contrary, Savant research that indicates
normal mental functioning in damaged or even 90% missing brains! He does not
consider that brain may not be the causitive agent in spiritual experiences,
but merely reflects activity from a deeper non-material level of a spiritual or
mental agent acting on the brain.

Although another argument in opposition suggests that perhaps it was "GOD" himself, who put this so called "God Part Of The Brain" in us humans?

(Perhaps)

Hi Tab,

Cris, seeing as we're the same age I was just wondering if our paths have ever crossed before? I went to Holloway school, lived in Highbury and then ran a business in Parsons Green Fulham and lived in Putney.

In the early 70's I was in a rock band called Anvil and an Afro fusion band called Dalai Lama. Ring any bells?

Ah ha! That is a long shot. Close but not close enough. My hometown was Chislehurst in Kent and I schooled there as well. And I was pretty much ignorant of the rock scene in my youth, definitely not typical, but then I was building my first computer at 13 (no chips around then). So you can guess where my interests were headed. My marriage years (18) had me in Bromley, Orpington and then Maidstone (actually the village of Trottiscliffe).

So I doubt very much that we have crossed paths. Similar age was a long shot and I’m sure you knew that so I am wondering if there was something else I might have said that has intrigued you. Your obvious warmth and compassion for the human condition is quite a contrast to my more harsh and technical outlook. But you have an interesting and creative imagination, judging from several of your posts where you have attempted to explain the fabric of the universe.

So have fun and perhaps we’ll meet one day.

Cris

PS. BTW I posted a response in the MU forum to one of your posts from a little while back, sorry for the delay. I’ve just taken over the management of a software engineering department and I’m finding it difficult to spend much time at sciforums recently.

"I WANT A PONY!"...The "Tail" Of Two Brothers.

(One brother being a "Pessamist" and the other being an "Optimist")

One day the pessamist brother said to the optimist brother, "Hey,
come look inside the barn dear brother, I have something to show you."

The optimistic brother said " O.K." and proceeded to follow his
pessamistic brother inside of the barn, and as he looked inside, he
happened to notice all kinds of "Horse Manure" littered all over the
place, and said, HMmm? "There must be a PONY in here somwhere?"

clouded perseption through expectation of pre determined facts??????????????????????

Of our own species, that all humans possess a nose in the middle of our face means that somewhere within our chromosomes there must exist "nose" genes that
instruct the developing fetus to develop one and in that very place. It's not as if the human nose could have developed anywhere on the body only, by sheer
coincidence, it consistently ends up in the middle of our face. Apparently, humans are genetically "wired" to develop in this particular way. I can't believe I'm going to do this, but I'm actually going to cite Schwarzeneggar's character in T2. When the young lad Connors asked if the Terminator felt pain, the Dark Farmer replied that his systems registered "negative data" which he could interpret as pain.

Furthermore, I am going to present an idea from video games. Anyone here play baseball games like Triple Play or High Heat? Something every sports video gamer has noticed over the years is the common discrepancy between what the computer tells you has happened and what it shows you. What! He caught that! Gimme a f---in' break! You know, even when you watch it on the slo-mo, the ball disappears from the air fifteen feet away from the player and magically registers in his glove? The simple answer is that the computer's output systems are not yet sophisticated enough to describe the equations taking place in the program. That is to say that the computer can calculate the quirks of a baseball to a certain degree of accuracy that is greater than it can display.

* I have no doubt that certain behavioral characteristics are genetically designed. The only question of the G-zone in the brain I would then present is simply: Is the brain designed to provide us specifically with that sense of doubt that creates religion, or is this the natural result of our best interpretations of an electrical process that is of greater detail than we can presently perceive? Who says the zone will evolve out of the brain? Who says we won't grow to fit it, and thereupon discover its actual purpose?

Thus arises the suggestion, at least, that religious sentiments are not the natural-intended function of this part of the brain, and that such sentiments are a developmental phase, a beta of what our actual genetic standard. No, this does not imply a mistake on nature's part. But somewhere in the shadows of prehistory, creatures that evolutionists believe are our ancestors shed their tails; this may largely be because out of the trees where a tail is more useful our brains evolved to the point where it could handle more complex balance equations and invest physical balance to the inner ear. This would imply the possibility of forsaking our adept movements through the trees. Who here is as quick as a monkey in the woods? Your appendix is also unnecessary; other organs achieve its function. You have a few useless vestiges about your body that will not, in another hundred generations or so, be so prevalent in humans. In this sense, it could be that the G-zone presently manifests its data output in that sensation that we call religious. But it is merely data that we choose to call something; religion is mostly superstition, and that may be the point. Those superstitions can protect. Sure, it's not a god up on the mountain that's burning people, but nobody goes tromping into the caves with the uranium in them, do they?

Take fire: it is not a god, though certain "definitions" of life (that disappeared, I believe, early in the 20th century) actually were so open that fire, technically, qualifies. But without the equipment to diffract firelight and pass it through excited gas, the ancients didn't have the means to describe what it was as you or I might. Yet it was not something to be toyed with; from the fear that fire raises, we then enter the most basic of psychologies. One personalizes the things they fear; this is at least as old as human self-awareness. We see extraneous bravado even in primates. Personalized fear is anthropomorphic, and lack of knowledge makes that fear superstitious and assumptive. This is why one jumps in the water to honor the gods of fire and make the fire go away; one does not yet understand that the water suffocates the fire. And superstitious anthropomorphism is religion at its most base and cruel.

It is entirely plausible, I think, that the G-zone is part of our survival calculations, a hitherto necessary part of the human psyche that allowed us to establish some sense of personal control over the immediate environment. We even see instinctual envy of resources possibly compelling more diverse and complex religious rituals as individuals or even small clans competed without realizing it, begging greater favor from the unseen forces of the Universe, which became interactive with anthropomorphization. (How many times can I abuse that word?) Whether economic superstition or competitive necessity forced the first incorporation of people into more abstract associations is not irrelevant; for if the former describes reality, then we see religion wielded against others from its inception.

* If superstition related to economic necessity--shelter, food, &c--compelled the first abstract incorporations of diverse persons beyond the anthropological family to come together in a sense of necessity that when refined with luxury becomes greed, then we see the superstitious adoption of ritual to common use derived from a sense of want. That is, we may see religious/superstitious associations as the first link beyond the immediate, familial association. Thus the first attraction to common religion is want.

This brings two points to light: First, that religion is a powerful tool in the development of society; second, that the physiological phenomena which create the sense of alternating fear and security that becomes, in the modern day, the neurosis (at the least) of many religions, might have contributed heavily to the development of human economy and therefore human society and therefore--by some measure of extrapolated assumption--human beings.

Then does this assure the future of the G-zone in the human brain? Perhaps, and maybe not. It's a toss-up as far as I'm concerned. Where strong atheists would point to the failure of most (if not all) religions beyond shamanistic tribal associations (and also thereof) to deliver what they promise, I counter with the notion that this only means that no functional religion has evolved in the modern day. Perhaps the notion of the benevolent dictator is true; perhaps people did not, even in recent centuries, possess the proper data to shed religions and begin operating on their own. This brings about the consideration that religion has had its place, but perhaps does no longer; the failure of the religions of Abraham is not complete: Islam may be wounded, but even the vaporization of the Middle East will not kill its spirit; Christianity ... what can I objectively say of a religion that has consistently declared itself opposed to my liberty? I cannot pronounce it dead merely because the patient refuses treatment, and prefers never to heal. And for all its cunning efforts, the world has not yet exterminated Judaism. (And here is a notion about everyone else in the history of anti-Semitism: Doesn't it ever get old, people?) But, to be more faithful to the point, the physiological religious brain phemomenon might actually be useful again sometime in the future, so it's not likely to go away.

But I'm winding down, after a few interruptions and now I'm listening to Kermit the Frog and I forget who the woman is singing Lime in the Coconut. And to think I had a second point to make, but it seems that I've forgotten entirely what it is for now.

But just a few ramblings from my corner ...

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

Originally posted by Cris
Ah ha! That is a long shot. Close but not close enough. I was building my first computer at 13 (no chips around then).


Cris,
Yes it was a long shot, but it was something you said in a previous post over a year ago, which simply escapes me for now. But it reminded me of an old buddy called Keni St George.
Also, I ran a fast food business for 13 years in an important area of London and many, many, creative and famous people passed through my doors, so there was always a chance that you might have ‘passed through’. Anyway, I’m always intrigued by coincidences. Ok, try this: Do you know any marketing managers at Info Grames? He has a Scots sounding surname
I didn’t know anybody in my school who built computers—in fact, I don’t think I’d even heard of them at that point--. The closest we got to deep science were the boys who used the schools lab to make speed and LSD.
Personally, at 13 I was beginning to ask about the purpose of life and the meaning of God, concluding (then) that God lives inside you and you have to delve to find it.

he he he
tablariddum :)
you sond like you were selling fire sticks to hairy apes :D
sorry couldnt ressist a prod at an age issue :)
makes me feel closer to 16 yo rather than 17 :D
i wonder how we would fear in common day to day life/communication if we could remember all the faces we talked to and met in our life like remembering what we had for breakfast! :D
wwhhhaaat.....a wonderfull...., wonderfull..., world...
:)------------can some people do that?

groove on :)

Riple,
funny thing is, I usually can't remember what I had for breakfast!
No I'm kidding, breakfast is usually 2 Greek coffees and 3-4 cigarettes. But I'm terrible with names and faces, especially people I'm not especially interested in. My memory has become very selective over the past decade.

Sorry tab,

Doesn’t ring any bells, but then my memory has been failing fast these past few years. Seems to be common for people in their late forties. And yep, people and faces, a big problem, for me its even people I work with. It hasn’t been too embarrassing yet, but it is of some concern. Surprisingly my 85 year old mother can remember the jobs she had as a teenager, the details of the work and the names of the people she worked with, she shows no signs of memory loss – I think she has a semi-eidetic memory. It’s a pity I can’t do that.

From the way I understand the human brain it is not that the memories are lost it is just that the recall mechanism becomes flawed. Increasing brain activity and focusing exercises should help to some degree – i.e. use it or lose it.

So I really really really do need that mind upload to work so I can function properly again.

As for London – I avoided it most of the time until I had to commute for a few years in the mid 80’s – I worked in Buckingham gate, a few yards away from Buckingham Palace.

As for school: The computer was a 10 bit binary adder-subtractor, cost me a fortune to build (around 1967). It made me well known and for that I was voted chairman of the school science club. The next best I thing I did there was build a ‘gunpowder bomb’. We made the powder and packed it into a heavy-duty metal pipe. The idea was to fire a cork from the end of the pipe. We put the pipe in the middle of the school field with a long fuse – we had a teacher attend just to make it legal. We never found the cork and it took a while to find the pipe – it was pretty badly shredded. I’ve had great respect for gunpowder ever since. Scared the s__t out of the teacher. But mostly I spent my breaks and after school in the metal shop building model rockets (aluminum), powered with a solid fuel propellant. Either that or playing chess – some more fame there, but that’s another story.

Never found the drug scene or the music scene, I think they must have been around; I just didn’t see them or had better things to do. I still haven’t found the drug scene, but my teenage daughters tell me it exists.

As for gods and religions: At 13 such things didn’t seem to have any relevance, yes I had to attend the morning school assembly where we sang hymns, prayed and listened to the headmaster’s sermon, but that just became a meaningless ritual, something that could be forgotten the moment one left the school hall. Around 16 (same maturity as 13 for girls I suspect) I gave some serious thought to religion and from then on spent some serious time as a Christian for a few years.

And I did delve deeply into religions but my analytical and scientific outlook didn’t help me find anything of substance, and after a while one comes to accept the obvious – there isn’t anything there to find.

So do you believe you’re divine, if there is a god within you? I did many years of TM, starting in the mid 70’s and I remember a TV interview with the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi after he had said that there is an element of the divine in all of us. He was then asked the trick question ‘do you think you are a god then?’, he just laughed.

So that was then, how do you feel now, is there a god within you?

So I too like coincidences, so is there one for us? How about birth dates – mine is September 17.

Have fun
Cris

Cris,
September 24, close but not close enough. I'm a Libra and you're a Virgo. I've found that I can get on with some Virgos but in general I find them opiniated, egotistically proud and a little bit ignorant (my Dad's a Virgo), though definitely not stupid! On the positive, they are also generous and warm hearted. None of this is directed at you BTW. You are obviously an academic--which is another Virgoan trait i've observed--and I think you probably do have some strong opinions judging from your posts, er and maybe a little bit ignorant of the Rock/drug culture which was really a big thing as you were growing up and still is, but none of this is directed at you...ts alright well it sounds like it is, but not in a bad way, you know I mean? :-)

As far as pipe bombs go, well...where I live (Limassol, pop 150,000), we have at least 2 cars a month blown up by these home made devices. A symptom of minor vendettas between people who really ought to know better. But the law being an ass, justice only for the rich and awry-gone deals 'off the books', forces the mucho machos to take the law into their own hands. Talking of hands; at least 1 is lost every year, as children make their own pipe bombs at home, in place of fireworks, which are banned in Cyprus.

Tab,

Pipe bombs as you observe and from my own personal experience represent that aspect of human life we claim as knowledge. Gunpowder is very easy to make and so are a number of other higher power explosives. Nuclear bombs are also relatively easy to make if one can obtain the correct ingredients and a little technology. There are other types of knowledge in a similar category, for example, genetic engineering, cloning, and soon I think AI. Our problems are not that we have this knowledge but that many of us lack the intelligence of knowing when or how to use the knowledge. Almost any knowledge can be used for good or bad.

When my children were younger I remember explaining to them how a dangerous and volatile metal, sodium, when combined with a deadly poisonous gas, chlorine, can produce table salt. I suspect there are other aspects of the universe that may well have such counter-intuitive properties and which we will probably discover accidentally and for which we will express total astonishment.

The biggest problems we face are not from our scientific discoveries and factual knowledge but from our culture, our primeval instincts, and from socio-economic influences. If you give a child a loaded gun but don’t teach him its dangers then naturally you should expect a tragedy. We, as the human race are very much like that child, we are discovering these ‘loaded weapons’ through our instinctive curiosity, and we are demonstrating that immaturity that makes such knowledge so dangerous.

I don’t regret learning how to make explosives. It was a powerful learning experience, but what I don’t have is a desire to use that knowledge to cause harm to others, the idea is abhorrent. The solution to wars and terrorism is to understand the sociological immaturity of such groups and attack the issues from the direction of that understanding. Using more weapons to fight other weapons simply escalates the stupidity that so many people so very easily demonstrate.

Tab,

Astrology – uh-oh we are in danger of labeling each other. And uh-oh, a Libra huh! Definitely trouble. ;)

I love astrology and have been trying to make it conform to strict rules for decades. It never seems to quite work the way I expect or want. I’ve seen enough to agree that there are some strong correlations between birth dates and personalities and I can predict the behavior of some people if I know their birth dates, and I can often also assign birth signs to people having only experienced their personalities. But it isn’t a very precise discipline and I find that very frustrating.

So yes I am a Virgo, but with all signs there are many other influences that should be considered. For example my rising sign is Aries, which makes me quite assertive, and that alone mitigates against some of the more typical Virgo traits.

So should I analyze you?? Nah that could spoil our pleasant dialogue. Of the Libras I have experienced I have noticed a tendency to not be able to make decisions easily, but that might not necessarily apply to you, right? ;)

Being ignorant of drugs, rock, is I think from choice. I am and always have been very independent and if my peers wanted to do something that didn’t take my fancy then I simply did my own thing. I don’t drink alcohol either, never liked it, and never followed my peers when they thought downing pints of foul tasting liquid was somehow fun. Smoking went the same way. I guess I see most people as mindless sheep; they do something because everyone else does. So how about that for being arrogant?

Uh-oh – too much about me here – time to stop – ego trip ended.

Have fun
Cris

Thanks Tiassa!
again as always, you pose some very good ideas for thought.
keeps me thinking!

<IMG SRC="http://www.racerplanet.com/cgi-bin/UltraBoard/Public/Images/Accas03.gif">

hey time where ya been?
about time ( oopppsss no pun intended)
you gave a new injection to the thread of knoledge :D

groove on all

do we remember or mearly wish it was different? :D -thoughts...?

Cris, I know it's a bit off the subject but maybe you can explain something to me re. astrology.

I never could understand why the determination wasn't from conception rather than birth. It seemed that during the seven to nine, maybe ten, months of development the individual would be most influenced by the forces that supposedly come into play rather than the forces in play at the moment of birth.

My Mom, who was heavy into astrology, never could explain why.

now imagine your mum lived only 40 feet away from a big transformer! ooooooooppppppppppppsssssssssssss
is that a perverial spanner? :D

I think she did, Rip. If not forty feet, close enough. How else can I explain being labled 'Weird John' at a rather young age.

Chagur,
Maybe that’s the reason astrology is so unreliable. Or maybe it’s just that the ‘forces in play’ don’t have any bearing on the individual unless the umbilical cord is severed and it becomes an entity unto itself, connecting to the Universal energies and influences as an independent organism. Another reason of course, could be the fact that for the vast majority of people, it would be extremely difficult to determine the exact time and place that the actual conception took place.

tablariddim, I just don't know. Part of me want's to think there is an effect of sorts, and another part of me wants to say pish! How much of either, or both, parts are tied in with my feelings about my mum, and where her head was at, colours the whole bit.

Re-reading the thread a couple of thoughts came to mind:
1) Re. 'junk DNA': Considering how brief the time since we became aware of DNA, I think it's pretty arrogant to term any part of it 'junk':
2) A good many years ago I was told that space was an empty vacuum, that nothing existed in it - and had the termidity to ask: Not even light? How do we see the Sun, the planets, and the stars? Needless to say, I never did become that instructor's favorite ... but seeing him dance was worth it;
3) So much emphasis on what we learn from birth, and nothing re. learning while developing ... I find it difficult not to believe that some of the environment is experienced, and the mother's response to it;
and 4) An almost complete exclusion of 'instinctual' knowledge derived from our specie's experiences over the ages.

Interesting thread, interesting thoughts.

hey all
yes ser-ry bob!
that has got to be one of the little-big....questions that seem to be
glazed over with hastening redirection :)

why do some people have great skill at throwing a ball
and some have great skill in calculating the curve and optimal trajectory of the ball?

we all can eat meat but we all dont want to hunt!
soo... is a farmer naturaly a vegetarian?
:D thoughts....?


groove on all :)

to wonder about something I've heard said before:we all can eat meat but we all dont want to hunt! True enough, and always a wonderful point to make if you're Ted Nugent ;)

However, I disclaim by the power of human economy and society. Two quick points on hunting:

* There's three hundred-million of us in the United States, give or take. What would be left to hunt? It didn't take three hundred-million of us to buffalo the buffalo. It seems to me that the many people who lived here before the European situation didn't have this problem.

* As I sit here typing this nifty note on my ruby iMac, I wonder who the hell would have built it for me to buy with the money I make pandering to an insurance company if we were all out hunting. Who, for instance, would build the gun? (This of course bearing in mind the hunting-related complication of what the heck would be left to hunt.)

I have notions about the baseball bit, but none coherent enough to get the strike.

Thanx much, Rip ...

--Tiassa :cool:

(PS--on edit--y'know, I just realized how useless a post this is. I actually ignored the question marks. :rolleyes: )

hey tiassa
:)
quote>>>* As I sit here typing this nifty note on my ruby iMac, I wonder who the hell would have built it for me to buy with the money I make pandering to an insurance company if we were all out hunting. Who, for instance, would build the gun? (This of course bearing in mind the hunting-related complication of what the heck would be left to hunt.)<<<

thats one of the things i see as a huge difference between most cultures.
the need to gratify the self ego by killing :)
to hunt for food or enviromental control is a whole different kettle of buffalo :D

i guess by those standards it is time humans became the prey :confused:
maybe...tiassa, if you were sitting in a hut without your mac you might be facilitating discussion on global issues with friends and other tribes :D
i fully support the idea of photographic hunting and catch and release of big fish if not for food; that cannot be bought because of lack of money!
if none of us had money............WHAT WOULD WE DO FOR FOOD for TOMORROW( tomorrow being the day you run out of food from your house) ?

groove on all
:)

to hunt for food or enviromental control is a whole different kettle of buffalo What if I change the phrase to the hunt for economy or environmental control ....?

Because someone's going to have to do the dishonorable thing and accept food they didn't kill in order to make clothing or shelter out of the non-edible parts of the buffalo.

This is why we have representative currency in the first place, which is a critical factor in modern civilization. Civilization as we know it simply could not exist without representative currency exchange.

Darn ... that's right. I was digressing. Mostly I was trying to be cute about an old hunting slogan bequeathed me by those who lived when men were men and men without guns were women. ;)

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

:)

Quote>>> Because someone's going to have to do the dishonorable thing and accept food they didn't kill in order to make clothing or shelter out of the non-edible parts of the buffalo. <<<

And thee being most honorable, tiassa, do kill your own food - whether plant or animal. Decent!

???? What happened, Rip? At a loss for words?

hey all :)
scientists discover plants that scream!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
the reason that girrafs eat walking up wind!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

vegitarians beware!
:)
what a weird world we live in!

it would be nice to think of women not having guns but they are quite often the ones pushing the trigger men!
:(
its just not fasionable to say so!
child abuse is raising the reality a little more though!

who raises the children?
men dont!(genralisation of modernday)

responsibilty is hard to find in this day !
i would gladly stop eating meat and killing animals if someone else would take the reponsibilty to do so for me and the good of the planet. :D
tiassa i know your heart is in the rite place!!!!!!!!;
but who would do the dirty work?
thoughts........?

groove on all :)

i guess by those standards it is time humans became the prey

Maybe past time. But it would require an interesting predator - like maybe the HIV virus ...

You know, primitive man didn't have this problem. If he didn't hunt, he didn't eat. If he didn't eat for a long time end of problem.

Funny, we say we've advanced. But if we're having this topic of discussion, have we? It seems that if we're depending on others to kill for us for food then that doesn't smack of survival traits to me. Rather that we've set ourselves up for a whole bunch of deaths should anything happen to our precious civilization which allows us the luxury of squemishness.

:D
i cant imagine anything could be added to that!
:D

:)
groove on all
:)

Hi, I hope I tell it in good english and that you understand what I' m trying to say...I think we come from another place, somewhere in the cosmos. It is the place we always go back to when we 'die' here on earth. The Tibetans call this Bardo. It is a place, full with alien entities. We live there together with other beings, till it' s time for us to go back to earth. Every time you go back, you go back to learn more about life, here on earth. How to behave against other people, what really matters in life. <karma-theory> When you pass over <die>, you go back to Bardo and so on....I don't know where it ends. Some say that when heart and soul are truly one, you stay at Bardo and become one of the entities who live there....Sometimes they become guides for humans in trouble, like a guardian angel.'Yes it sounds like fantasy...it is not. It is a difficult subject. People who've had near death experiences understand this better I think...But it is not heaven and hell, like in the bible.

hey all :)

yo banshee- i kinda agree with you on that subject on a theoretical bassis of coarse :)
but how does karma fit in to the equation?
if at all?

one point i think would help us allot is if we got rid of guns in the private sector and in farming then we would have to get the blood on our hands and this would leed to people being thinnned
to a point of ecological conseusnes that is lost in this day and age of wealthy purchase of plastic wrap brains and fish eggs :D

But to be more direct this is like fencing in the child rather than educating it :/

and so the cycle continues
to fester and foster
fears and the fearfull
in a fever of hate and mistrust,
the ego inflates to block the gates
and all that is left is lust.
:(

groove on all :)

There you are very right. The weapons have to go!!! In every country and people finally have to learn that we can be friends also....all the fighting...all the killing.....

Please...Make An end To That...!!!

But how, how do we do that???

Not one of the country's will lay down <all> their weapons, because they will always be suspicious if the other country's have REALLY laid down their weapons.....

And so the circle is round, and the 'wheel' keeps on 'spinning'.....It brings me to tears.....I can cry when I see all this useless destruction on t.v. every day. And it seems like it gets worse by the day.......

The earth is trembling beneath all the blood and all the pain.....untill she thinks: Ït's been enough...", earth dies, don't you notice...??

hey all :)

banshee- you speak with your heart!
:)

i think the problem is in education!
i think we need to make education the most important job of all.
people should be paid 5 times the normal wage to be a teacher and have regular psychological assesment and counselling...
AND ALL CLASS ROOMS SHOULD BE RECORDED BY VIDEO CAMERA
and all SCHOOL GROUNDS should be aswell!
big brother can suck my ____!
more funding to schools to allow independent security with a government agency that studys the school once a year and publishes the results for all to see!

all the pediphiles and power freaks wont want that though :/
because there control and thus abuse will be monitored.
-AS LONG AS the cameras are not made a big issue by the teachers then it will be succesful.

ALL WILL BE REVEALED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

who is scared by that?
who is affraid of that ?
the power freaks that use children as whipping posts?
it should be all public knoledge!
public responsibility.
teacher accountability.
socialy actively intravertively un-deniable!

the preacher is off for another beer :D

groove on all :)

:rolleyes: I think the parents have to do a job here.
Learn your children from a little baby till he/she goes to live alone or so, to have respect for other people.
No matter what colour, religion or whatever....respect another like you respect yourself...
Teach your children well, let them make Peace and put an End to War...

But that is a whole lot to ask...

And a very difficult task for parents...:rolleyes:

hey all :)

banshee-

Parents 0 -
Fashion/consumer disposable marketing strategy 10


Unfortunately the dice is loaded in favor of the most prevalent time zone...and that is not parenting environments :/
That is school and friends/peers.

Let’s not open the religious fanatic scenario!

But let’s just look at the overriding values that are recognized and rewarded.....
Not truth and honesty!
Deceit distortion of truth and no emotions are valued as most desirable in most of not all exclusive(high finance) environments!

Since most people think it is impossible to have a good time all the time....
How do we create a opposite to what they perceive as perverse enough to motivate a norm steer?

kinda confounding to me!
anywho

groove on all :)