I would like to know, which kind of information can be carried by genes. It is clear to me, that all information about our body and also instincts are defined by the genes. But can genes also carry any kind of intellectual information? Is it possible that our experience is life can be written to the genes? Did we get anything from our grand parents about their experience in life via genes?

Checking the following websites will give you some info.

http://www.accessexcellence.org/AB/GG/structure.gif

http://www.dna.com/sectionHome/sectionHome.jsp?site=dna&link=FamilyGenetics.htm
http://www.accessexcellence.org/AB/GG/#Anchor-Genetics-35326

Hi Wet1,

Thanks for your fast response and for the links containing huge information. I will work through the links, but this will take some time.

My main interest is not, what genes are carrying, but what they are not carrying. Can you confirm my following two assumptions:

1) Genes do not carry any intellectual information and our experience in life will not be written to the genes.

2) The evolution according to Darwin, where one main point is selection by survival, has stopped for the human race at least 1000 years ago. Since that time positive and negative mutations could be spread equally. That means the huge progress in our biological life is mainly caused by the progress in medicine. Any further genetic progress can only be achieved by active gene manipulation, if wanted.

A would appreciate very much a short comment to this.

Regards
Hermann

I don't think that I can verify that genes don't carry any intellectual info. You raise some good questions. Could instintive info be called intellectual? or turn from behavior to intellectual?
In an insect society the behaviour is instinctive and is not needed to be learned. Is there a "key gene' that could be unlocked to give more instructions at birth?

I mentioned something to this effect of interferring with the natrual process of selection in another post. That we have partially nulified it. The weak ones that would have perished under normal cirsumstances except for the alteration of the rules.
And in altering the rules we may have allowed the race to become weaker. At trait that may accumulate over time to our regret and dismay.

With the mapping of the human geome and the advances in genetics we open the lid to Pandora's box. Only time will tell what "rewards we will reap" from such knowledge. Wether it will be better or worse for mankind.

Wet1,

There may be an intellectual component in instincts. But also such genetic information has been developed by evolution over thousands or millions of years. Generally I think, genes are read-only-memories (ROMs), which cannot be used by nature for intellectual short term messages of single persons (individual experience in life) from one generation to the next like a hard disk. Can you agree with this?

Interesting that you should use the hard drive simile. Actually it's a very good one. For that is exactly was genes are. A storage of data containing the blueprint for building a whatever. Worm, ant, or human along with it's traits. (mixture of genes and dna)

In addition instructions (however limited) in initial behavior. Hardwired to the brain, instruction on how to move the body. that and crying are some of the very first things done.

A calf can stand on it's feet very shortly after birth while it takes humans nearly 2 years + or -.

Wet1,
I think we have still a misunderstanding.
In my opinion, the genes are not like a hard disks, because you cannot write on them. Genes seems to be like CD ROMs. All information on such CDs has been grown by evolution over very long time and cannot be changed during our life. Just for our children our CD will be randomly mixed with another one.
Is this your view as well?

You'd be suprised how long you can keep something going with a misunderstanding. :) Yeah, I gotta agree with you.
So let play devils advocate and ask what's next.

Wet1,

I am glad that we could come to an agreement.

The reasons for my interest in that are the often discussed questions "Who are we?" and "Where are we from". Can genetic and environmental influences explain really everything? I have spend a lot of time with such thoughts and gave a summary on my website: www.users.bigpond.com/hermann.raith

A long time ago I heard an interesting argument, why a soul must exist. The argumentation was like following:

Evolution produced everything, where was a need for in life. Therefore we have ears sensible for sound, eyes just sensible for the interesting range of wavelengths, etc. By this we got also the cerebellum, the part of the brain, which is responsible for instincts and reactions useful for survival. But what is about the cerebrum, the latest part of the brain? This seems to be not a sensor for something and not needed for producing necessary reactions. The final statement was therefore, that there must be a soul, which wants to make use of the brain for its own realization.

What do you think about such an argumentation or can you see another reason, why evolution has produced the cerebrum?

What do you think about such an argumentation or can you see another reason, why evolution has produced the cerebrum?

Intelligence seems to have been a darn good functional enhancement to improve survival odds, as evidenced by the exponential growth rate in the human population.

I gotta agree with that one. We're the top of the food chain. Course other predators don't quite see it our way as oppuritunity is oppuritunity.

In genetics all things are possible. There is NO difference between instinct & intelligence.

The past instincts that have been acquired by the varieties of organisms were acquired by natural selection. Hardwired.

The same could easily be done with human beings if people were designed by genetic engineers rather than ideas of amorous sexual appetites.

I see no practical limit to the possibilies of pre-designing human minds to be fully developed and genious-like upon birth. further, I believe that there is no limit as to the many types (species) of human beings that might well be developed in future centuries in regard to the ability of humans to cope with the varieties of environmental conditions on other worlds.

Because people aren't born smart simply is because people haven't been designed to be.

The revolution of Evolution is coming....................

Howardstern,

Do you believe, that clones of Einstein would show similar performance?

Originally posted by Hermann
Howardstern,

Do you believe, that clones of Einstein would show similar performance?

<b> Only if they (clones) were exposed to very similiar conditions that Einstein (the original) was exposed from his childhood up to the time of his findings.</b>


If Albert Einstein were to have been raised in a ghetto New York Scene by Crack Addict parents, then it is way possible that Albert would have been not much different than a lot of young black men who are in the penitentiary system today.

Certainly Albert was exceptional. But I believe that in a lot of ways Albert may have actually been somewhat retarded. I would be more interested in looking at the type of psychological environment that Albert Einstein grew up in.

<b>DON'T GET ME WRONG PEOPLE!</B>

From what I have read of Albert Einstein, his particular genious had to do with his ability to block out the rest of the world and the extraneous everyday types of tasks that most people take for granted. Albert had the ability to "focus" inward on a very few ideas and work at them constantly & without boredom. During these times however, the man would almost completely forget about the rest of the world around him.

<b>ALBERT THE MENTAL MUTANT</B>

All the people that you hear about today who have amazing capabilities to mentally handle large numbers, or others who have the ability to visually remember everything that they see, while there are those who can hear a song for the first time and then play and sing the song back nearly perfectly.......are all examples of genetic mutations for the most part. This is <u>NOT</u> to say that you can't do some of the very same kinds of things my friend. In fact, I believe that the average person could quite possibly do as much & even more than an "Einstein", if that person were to acheive such a previously mentioned capability of <u>Focus</u>.

<b>CURIOSITY IS THE MOST POWERFUL TEACHER</B>

I could seldom easily learn anything that I was not interested and curious about to begin with. That's nature and instinct. If the mamalian mind cannot emotionally find a reason to learn something new, then the learning process and eventual mastery of the learned subject will never be great. A Siberian Tiger may learn Einstein Relativity equations if he (Tiger) can emotionally associate relativity to his strongest instincts of eating his next meal or breeding with a female Tiger.

Emotions are quite possibly the most powerful guiding aspects of not only the human mamalian brain, but all brains of all living organisms. The emotions are the root of all thought and the most primal. Every moment of every day, people are almost entirely controlled in their decison making by their emotions. That "gut" feeling, which has always been talked about, will come into play when even the most logical of us have simply run out of facts to guide us. At this point, most people will then make a critical decision based on <u>how they feel</u> rather than the futher collection of facts. These feelings usually come from what one hears from his friends, associates, siblings, childhood experiences, ect..

<B>EMOTIONS TEND TO CONTROL OUR ACTIONS</b>

Being swayed by one's emotional preconceptions can be a total pain in the ass. This shall (I am sure) become more and more obvious to all readers of this post in the weeks, months, and years to come. The next time you see a commercial on television for instance, you will begin to take notice of all the the very minute and delicate visual aspects that the advertisers use in characters (actors), specific words, colors (color usage), background, ect... .....all to make you want to go out and buy a hamburger or perhaps a particular brand of toliet paper.

The use of Cartoons & various types of animation in television commercials will become more and more irritating as you begin to wonder why in the hell are these people (advertisers) trying to make me, a grown human being, believe that some cute little fuzzy cartoon character is gonna make me want to go out and buy any particular product! The effect that this has on kids is even more intense! Where it is written, and who decided that it was mentally safe for children to watch cartoons? Bear in mind that prior to the advent of movies & television ((even old Disney stuff (Riverboat Willy) Mickey Mouse)), that the majority of the human race was hardly ever exposed to the designs-of-thought which are now commonly broadcast to young and old alike.

Presently I find myself aggravated to no end by that cartoon ((geiko) geko) lizard on the insurance television commercials. I admit that I am not completely immune to the emotional ploys of every Con-artist out there but I can safely say that I am not going to laugh and clap & then call up Mr. Geiko lizard to pay these bastards all the extra dollars for insurance simply because they had a "CUTE" commercial. I guess I am just weird that way!

But by the same token, Ronald Mc Donald never caused me to run out an buy a "Mc Happy Meal", ect...... since I am a hell of a cook & can fry a hamburger that would bring tears to Ronald's eyes anyway!

WHERE WAS I??????
:confused: :confused: :confused:

The human mind has so many things that affect it in ways that even the pros are unaware of. From the day your born, you begin to take in the sites, sounds, emotional actions & reactions of others. All these things cause a developing mind to cope and adjust to it's environment, usually in a way which it's guiding instinct finds to be beneficial to it's survival. However survival for human beings is nothing like what it was in centuries & millenia past. Today especially, most people in the developed countries know that they get a meal from the Salvation Army at least. Or that the government will make it possible for them to live and thereby avoid starving. In other words, the competition for survival is not anything like what it was in millenia past. However, I believe that Darwin Evolution still holds perfectly true today for 21st century human beings as it did for humans of 30,000 years ago! The environment of our current generations has changed, but people really haven't. At least not much!

At the other end of the Human spectrum, there are the over-acheivers. Bill Gates, the Richest geek on Planet Earth! All the other over-acheivers..........what of them?????

Evolution!!!!!!!!..........For now, humanity is King! Considering all previously known forms of life, humanity has the ability to provide survival for all sorts of mutant human life forms. People with three eyes and four legs.........no problem. People who are (literally) less intelligent than a Chimpanzee...they can live and breed to make more just like them! A person who has a terminal type of cancer which would cause him (her) to die before (s)he reached puberty (breeding age) can now have they life extended so that they may pass on their terminal genetic traits to the rest of the population. And to their children, who may continue to pass on these normally unacceptable traits..... will be allowed to continue to pass on these traits to the rest of the breeding population and succeeding generations because of the intervention of medical science.

<b>EVOLUTION NEVER TOOK COMPASSION INTO ACCOUNT</B>

Survival of the fittest. That which can survive, by what ever means, and procreate will pass on it's genes of survival to the future generations. Humanity however, has pretty much broken all the rules of mother nature.

<b>BUT COMPASSION MADE ALBERT EINSTEIN!!!!!!!!!</B>

Much of what I have previously written almost paints me as a NAZI!!! I assure all that I am not. I simply believe that it is necessary for the student of Evolution to have a larger, "GOD'S EYE" point of view, so that (s)he may begin to look at the big picture in regard to Evolution and the bio-development of all living species.

In primal evolution terms, Albert Einstein quite probably would not have been able to hunt and run with the rest of a family tribe of 30,000 years past. He might well have been "Too Slow" to learn from his father, the best way to throw a spear, or how to escape a 600 pound Tiger...... Albert's dad would be running up a tree and screaming for him to do the same, but "Albert the intellectual" would probably be too engrossed in the idea of the speed of the tiger and the possible space/time connection thereof. Now for any possible Albert watching a Tiger video on the National Geographic Channel today that might be great, but thirty thousand years ago it meant that the Siberian Tiger would have made a quick Albert snack!

The fact is that Albert Einstein (of the 20th century) grew up in a time when survival conditions permitted people such as him to live and flourish. In all liklihood there have been many such Alberts who were not able to survive and pass on their genes to future generations because of the past harsh environmental conditions of pre-industrial times. And today especially, there are doubtlessly many such "Alberts", who are supported by the civilized society of humanity. They or their offspring may well see ways to advance science in ways that make the most renowed scientists today look like complete morons. Time will tell.

<b>Clones of Albert Einstein? Why waste the time. </b>

-Develop a test to pick out those people who are highly imaginative and have the abilty to focus their mental concentration powers greatly;

- Apply the best teaching methods known toward the advancement of the intellects of these people, and

- begin a breeding program among all these genius humans which are found. After a hundred years or so of refinement, it may then become worthwhile to attempt a limited Cloning program, though I don't really see much of an advantage in recreating a past "genious" when one comes to realize that advanced mental powers lie in the future combinations of human offspring, rather than in our past, primal ancestory.

As the understanding of genetics continue, I expect that eventually it will become possible to "hardwire" knowledge into the genetic codes of a human being, or any other form of life, for that matter! That at birth, a human being might well have the entire knowledge of the human race literally programmed into his (her) genes. One of the main reasons that I say this has to do with the very fact of the much more primal "instincts" that have been programmed into all living organisms, including humans. I believe that it would actually easier to genetically program knowledge into a human being than it would be to try to fit electronic hardware into a human beings head. Certainly Biotechnology is going to be much more compatible to a human brain than any kind of electronic hardware/software. In fact, if I were planning on investing in any such types of stocks, I'd be seriously considering the genetic technology stocks in the near future. Sooner or later I expect that biotechnology may well replace the semi conductors that power all of our computers today. Of course that depends on how Artificial Intelligence itself evolves in the years to come.

Apply the best teaching methods known to the advancement of the intellects of these people ...

Agree with almost everything you said Howardstern except the above.

Genius cannot be 'taught'. If anything, it can only be discouraged by not understanding how very different the thought processes of genius are, whether the ability to compose a sonata at six, or write a poem at four, or conceive of a multi-dimensional universe at seven.

A good number of years back a husband and wife team at a local university decided to study creativity. At the end of the study they contacted the local Mensa group to see if they would participate. They did, and in many cases blew the scale that was being used so badly that the graduate students who were participating in the study were unable to score, let alone plot, the individual's 'creativity'.

I'd have to say the only way to encourage such an individual is to give them the time and the resources to explore wherever it is that they want to go ... and then stand back.

Howardstern, your detailed explanations are extremely interesting, but the comments of Chagur are valid, too.

I think we have to look for latent geniuses - even in a ghetto New York Scene - in order to teach them the necessary basic knowledge and to give them resources and time to develop or to realize their inner power. I don't think we can breed geniuses, but we can wake them up.

I understand your materialistic world-view, which is not free of preconceptions, and I regard it as a believable belief - but is this the only one? Would you be able just to imagine the possibility, that individual souls could exist? What about an alternative world-view as I have described on my website (http://home.t-online.de/home/hraith/english.htm) ?
Would you tolerate this also as a "believable belief"?

<img src="http://www.webpromotion.com/anim/stock01/white/01_21_w.gif" border="0" alt="">
...ever heard of "White Powder Gold" and its efects on the human genome system to create additional degrees of seperation between the body & spiritul limitation whithout physical death, enabling the us humans to evolve to another form of God-Like abilities? In theory not only could you download information directly into the brain instantaneously, but you could shift the harmonic resonance & frequencies within every living cell in your body, to shift between physical form, and a translucent energy body!

I'll provide additional details...

Superconductivity and Modern Alchemy
Has the Philosopher's Stone Been Found?

**********-White Powder Gold-******************
http://monatomic.earth.com/david-hudson/1995-02-dallas-d-white-powder-gold.html

<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>
Superconductivity and Modern Alchemy:
Has the Philosopher's Stone Been Found?
by David Hudson
[White Powder Gold]
</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>

<H1>Superconductivity and Modern Alchemy</H1>
<H2>Has the Philosopher's Stone Been Found?</H2>
<H3>White Powder Gold</H3>

<P>
[
<A HREF="1995-02-dallas-toc.html">Table-of-Contents</A>
·
<A HREF="1995-02-dallas-a-discovery.html">Discovery</A>
·
<A HREF="1995-02-dallas-d-white-powder-gold.html">White Powder Gold</A>
·
<A HREF="1995-02-dallas-e-qa.html">Q&amp;A</A>
·
<A HREF="1995-02-dallas-f-workshop-1.html">Workshop-1</A>
·
<A HREF="1995-02-dallas-g-workshop-2.html">Workshop-2</A>
]

<BLOCKQUOTE>
<P>
Transcript of a February 1995 introductory lecture and workshop by
David Hudson in Dallas Texas. Transcribed from the video tapes
which were recorded by The Eclectic Viewpoint on February 10 and
11, 1995. The video tapes are available from:

<P>
<ADDRESS>
The Eclectic Viewpoint<BR>
P.O. Box 802735<BR>
Dallas, Texas 75380<BR>
Contact hot line (214) 601-7687<BR>
</ADDRESS>

<P>
The video tapes have readable pictures of all of the documents that
Hudson references. The serious student of these subjects will find
these tapes are worth obtaining. The package of three video tapes
costs $69.95 plus $5.00 for shipping and handling.

<P>
Items in [parentheses] were added by the editor of this transcript.
</BLOCKQUOTE>

<P>
<B>Note: This has been further edited and broken into smaller
pieces for HTML at monatomic.earth.com. The editorial notes mentioned
above were added by the previous editor.</B>

<HR>
<H3>White Powder Gold</H3>

<P>
[52:17] Okay before I start on the second half, I would like to
request of all of you, um, Cheyenne was very adamant that she had
to tape these proceedings. She said I've always done that with my
speakers. I have been very disappointed in that when I spoke at
Global Sciences twice, they taped it both times, and I said, "This
tape is only for the people who attend the conference". And these
people have copied and copied and copied. I have had phone calls
from Germany, I had phone calls from South America. I will please
ask you people, please do not recopy these tapes. These tapes are
for the people that attended the conference, who want to refer back
to them. It's fine to play them for other people, but please don't
make copies of them for other people to have. Some of the people
who have ended up with copies of these are not the kind of people
that I would just as soon that they didn't hear about this. And
so, please.... You ask yourself why we never heard about this on
the radio, why we never heard about this on the newspapers, and
it's because I refuse. I've been asked to speak at NASA and I've
turned it down, on superconductivity. I've been asked to come before
the open radio stations, and what you have to understand is that
all people are not ready for this.

<P>
Okay? The people who came here basically, I'd say, 90-95 percent
of you hear this and understand what it is and why it's here now.
But most people on the street do not understand it at all. And I
can tell you it's just like you're speaking a foreign language when
you try to repeat this to people. They're just going to say, "Gosh,
what are they talking about. You're out in left field." And, ah,
all I can tell you is it seems to be a built in protection. It
seems to be for a reason, that's all I can tell you. And so, please
don't recopy the tapes, okay? I'm asking you here on tape, please
don't recopy the tapes.

<P>
Okay, back to the alchemical substance. When I became interested
in this alchemy, because the white powder of gold was the alchemical
substance supposedly, I began to do all sorts of reading, and one
of the things I came across immediately was the Melchizedek priesthood
and the white powder of gold associated with the Melchizedek
priesthood. So I went to Rabbi Plotkin at Temple Beth Israel in
Phoenix, and I asked the Rabbi, who is one of the most knowledgeable
rabbis in Arizona, I said, "Rabbi, have you ever of the white powder
of gold?", and he said, "Oh yes Mr. Hudson, but to our knowledge
no one's known how to make it since the destruction of the first
temple". He said, "The white powder of gold is the magic. It can
be used for white magic or black magic".

<P>
And when you really find out what the white powder of gold is, you
begin to really appreciate that statement. So, anyway, as I began
to research this further, I found out about the history of it, I
found out that it has been associated with the ancient peoples over
in the Tigris-Euphrates valley. It was knowledge that was given to
them by, they claimed, the gods. It is always depicted in the
literature as a triangular shaped stone, but it's about twice as
tall as it is wide, kind of an elongated pyramidal shape, like
this. I think Zecharia Sitchin refers to it as the "athinder?
stone". Ah, but all of their sacred text always began with it.
Curious enough, in the ancient Egyptian text it was always referred
to as the "What is it?", and if you read in the papyrus of Ani that
was found in the tomb of Pepe the 2nd in old kingdom Egypt, it
says, "I am purified of all imperfections, what is it, I ascend
like the golden hawk of Horus, what is it, I come by the immortals
without dying, what is it, I come before my father's throne, what
is it, and she goes on and on, page after page, talking about all
these attributes that you acquire as you ascend, but they always
stop and ask the question, "What is it"?

<P>
Well, this was written about 28-29 hundred B.C., and they're asking
this question "What is it"? Well when I found the Hebrew dictionary,
I found out that the Hebrew word for "What is it?" is Ma-Na. Manna
literally means the same thing, "What is it?" And when you understand
that the Hebrew people were actually, lived in Egypt for generations,
they were the artisans, they were the metallurgists, they were the
craftsman. And when they left out of Egypt they took this knowledge
with them. We find in the literature that, and this is particularly
in Velikovsky's writing, 'Ages in Chaos', that he says, that, eh,
when the Egyptian..., when the Hebrew people left Egypt that the
Egyptians decided that they wanted to go after them and they find
the writings in Egypt where the Pharaoh and his army drown in a
whirlpool of water. Now this right at the end of old kingdom Egypt.

<P>
Remember in the Bible, that it says that the Hebrews encountered
these mean, warring like peoples called the Amalekites out on the
Sinai peninsula as they were exiting Egypt, and they, Moses wanted
to fight them, and the Hebrew people said "naw, these guys are
fierce tribesmen, there's hundreds of thousands of them, we don't
want to fight these people". And so they avoided fighting them.
Well, Velikovsky found out that at the very same time they were
having all the plagues in Egypt they were also having plagues over
in the Tigris-Euphrates valley, and the ruling tribe, the Amalekites,
exited the Tigris-Euphrates valley at the same time the Hebrews
were exiting Egypt. And they literally passed each other on the
Sinai with the Amalekites coming west as the Hebrews were going
east. They arrived in Egypt and there was no Pharaoh and there was
no army, and literally, these Arabs, destroyed and killed everyone.
All they left were the lesser people, who they kept as slaves for
themselves, but they hacked and killed and slaughtered everyone.
They destroyed the temples, they wiped out a very high culture at
the end of old kingdom Egypt. By the time they woke up to the fact
of what they had destroyed, the knowledge that was gone, it was
too late. The only people that knew how to make it, who were still
alive, were the Hebrews, and they were out on the Sinai.

<P>
They began in ancient Egypt to do the opening of the mouth ceremonies,
they begin to mummify their leaders, waiting for this knowledge to
come back so that the leaders could be brought back to life, but
in fact the knowledge was gone. And so, if you look in old kingdom
Egypt, did you know that they've never found the body of a pharaoh
or a high priest from old kingdom Egypt? Never. And they claim in
their literature that they never died, that they ascended the
stairway to heaven. And when you read about what they did and where
they went, it totally agrees, they were going to the very same
place that the people in the Tigris-Euphrates valley went to, to
ascend the stairway to heaven. And that was to an island called
Bahrain, it's just off the Sinai peninsula. There was a city by
the name of 'Kilmun' or 'Dilmun' and do you know that they have
excavated the city and found that it does exist, and it's supposedly
the land of the crossing, where the fresh water and the sea water
mix. And they have found the fault, right underneath the island
where fresh water exits under the ocean and mixes with the sea
water.

<P>
All of this goes back to writings about the first mortal king in
the Tigris-Euphrates valley, Gilgamesh, and his quest for immortality.
It goes back to he was told to travel to the land where the sun
sets, or the sun rises, which in fact was the name for Arabia.
And he traveled down the Tigris-Euphrates river, and into the ocean
and across the ocean, they came to this island, and it was at that
island where the man who survived the flood lived, and that's the
man we know as Noah, that he was looking for. The man who lived
900-1,000 years, and has three sons who lived over 900 years, who
had this knowledge.

<P>
Okay, now we come back to the Hebrews who exited Egypt. All of the
Egyptians that had this knowledge were slaughtered, and no one was
there to bring them back to life. But the Hebrews had this knowledge,
and Bezaleel, the goldsmith, was commanded by Moses to prepare the
"What is it?", the manna, or the "bread of the presence of God",
which was another name, they knew it in old kingdom Egypt. In old
kingdom Egypt they had three other names for it, it was called "the
golden tear from the eye of Horus", it was called "that which issues
from the mouth of the Creator", the spittle, or it was called "the
semen of the Father in Heaven". And if you take the white powder
gold and you mix it with water, it forms a gelatinous white
suspension, that, as a farmer I can attest, it does look just like
semen, which we use to, for the cattle and all. Ah, that would be
a good description of it, if I was trying to convey to someone what
it looks like.

<P>
Basically this is the basis of all religions of the world. How many
times have you heard "cleanse yourself", "purify yourself", "prepare
yourself like a bride in the bridal chamber", "for the coming of
the father". What they don't go on and tell you is what happens in
the bridal chamber, you become inseminated in the bridal chamber.
But you receive the semen of the father in Heaven. And you. . .
over. . . this is done over a 40 day period during a 40 day fast.
It was called the Egyptian rite of passage. It went 9 days with no
food to totally cleanse the digestive system, and they took this
material, or the "semen of the Father in Heaven", for the next 30
days. Okay, it was called "the Bread of Life" and the "Bread of
Life" was mixed with the water and was called the "Living Water".
Okay? This material is what Moses commanded Bezaleel, the goldsmith.
It wasn't a baker, it wasn't a woman, it was a goldsmith who was
told to prepare the "Bread of the presence of God", and this "Bread
of the presence of God" was set out on a golden table in front of
the Ark of the covenant. You remember the ark of the covenant, they
also placed the stones, through which God spoke to Moses, and gave
him the ten commandments.

<P>
And the Bible says, up on Mt. Sinai, that the Hebrew people said
there was fire and there was smoke. It was if a forge was going up
on Mt. Sinai. But when you recall that Moses had been there previously
and in the area of Sinai is where copper was being mined and smelted.
And in fact, I believe there was a forge going on Mt. Sinai, because
at 1,160 degrees the white powder of gold can be melted to a
transparent glass of gold. It literally becomes a glass as clear
as window glass, and yet it is pure gold, it's not a gold compound,
it's pure gold. You can take it in a mortar and pestle and grind
it right back to the white powder, but it is, it looks absolutely
like glass.

<P>
The neat thing about gold, as compared to the other elements, is
that gold can be purified by distillation. At 450 degrees elemental
gold will resonance disconnect from itself and will go over as a
gas and be re-condensed over here and be caught as white powder
again. And so you can purify it, back and forth, by repeated
distillation, and get a very high purity substance. It's called
the "white dew", the "white condensate", "the white dove" or it's
depicted as a white feather in the alchemical texts. Because that's
the way it was purified as a volatile material. Okay? All of the
symbols of being fed by a dove, or receiving the white dove, is
always an alchemical symbol. When we find, as the rabbi told me,
that this knowledge was kept by the Hebrews until the destruction
of the first temple.

<P>
What happened when they destroyed the first temple? And what happened
right before the temple was destroyed? We find that Solomon got a
woman pregnant who came from Egypt and she, in fact, was the Pharaoh
of Egypt. What was her name, Hatshepsut? How do you pronounce it?
Hatshepsut? Anyway, it was in fact the Pharaoh of Egypt that came
to Solomon's temple, and she became pregnant, she returned back to
Egypt, and she gave birth to a son, and the son's name was Menelik.
Menelik returned to Jerusalem when he was twenty one to be acknowledged
by Solomon as being his son. And Solomon, of course, acknowledged
Menelik, "Yes, you are my son". And of course, the Levites, the
high priests, just went bonkers. Here was a half breed. And they
had all this racial purity, and here was a half breed as the eldest
son of Solomon, to be the next king of Jerusalem. And so the Levites
said, "You must send your son away, he must be sent away". And
Solomon, in his infinite wisdom, said, "Fine, if I must send my
son away, all of you Levites must send your eldest sons away also".
So all of the eldest sons of the Levites left with Menelik, but
when they left they took the Ark of the Covenant.

<P>
And that's where the Ark of the Covenant went; to Egypt. When the
Hebrews realized that the Ark of the Covenant had left, these men
who took it were the ones who by blood right were the correct ones
to care for it. They were the eldest sons of the Levites and the
king. But because they were sent away they took the Ark of the
Covenant. And the Hebrew people haven't really wanted to talk about
this that much, because it really was their doings that they lost
it. And so, the Aaronic priesthood or the rabbinical priesthood
does not want to talk about the high priesthood leaving Jerusalem,
but it went to Egypt. And it was kept in Egypt out on the island
of Elephantine, where they built an exact duplicate of the Temple
of Solomon, and you'll read, and find out about that, if you read
Graham Hancock's book, 'The Sign and the Seal'. This is all in
there and it is absolutely correct. They have excavated. The
excavators have found, on the island of Elephantine, the exact
dimensions of the Temple of Solomon, where the foundation was and
where the Ark of the Covenant was kept. In the temple of Luxor they
recorded all of the loot and all of the plunder that was taken from
the Temple of Solomon by Thutmose II, was then returned when he
became pharaoh and looted the temple. But there's no Ark of the
Covenant because they already had that. And in that plunder they
list all of the items that they got, and they're all identified as
being golden, and then silver and then copper. But under the golden
items, under the shewbread, here is this elongated pyramidal shape
that is "The Bread of the presence of God". It's the very same
symbol, that I told you earlier, that is always shown as depicted
in the sacred ceremony, with the king offering the "bread", the
"white bread", to the symbol of the Ark of the Covenant, with the
black Anubis sitting on top of it. Well the Anubis represented the
digestive system, and here's the king offering, and it says "keeper
of the secret", but it's the white powder of gold being offered to
the digestive system, which is the transformational process you go
through.

<P>
Now, what does it do? I'm not a doctor so I can't practice medicine.
Anything that is administered to someone for the purpose of curing
a disease is medicine. So therefore I can't tell you on tape what's
been done with it, what the doctors who have giving it have done
with it, but I can tell you that at 2 mg. it totally has gotten
rid of Karposi Sarcomas on AIDS patients, at 2 mg. per day. 2 mg.
per day. There's 32,000 milligrams in an ounce, 2 mg. is nothing.
And it gets rid of "KS". I can tell you that people who have taken
it, at 2 mg. injections, within 2 hours, their white blood cell
count goes from 2,500 to 6,500 white blood cells. I can tell you
that stage 4 cancer patients have taken it orally, and after 45
days have no cancer anyplace in the body. We're not gonna go into
any more specifics than that. I will talk to you about it later
when the cameras aren't running.

<P>
I am not a doctor. My purpose in this was not to cure diseases and
illness, but I did want to know "does it work"? It's been used on
Lou Gehrig's disease, it's been used on MS, it's been used on MD,
it's been used on arthritis, it's been used on, ah, what else,
that's all that's coming to mind right now, and it just does some
very remarkable things in the body. The most important thing that
it does and the real reason this is here is not as a medicine.

<P>
The reason this material is here is to enlighten and raise the
consciousness of mankind. Now if people don't understand that, I
apologize, but that really is it's purpose. And what we have done
is we have given it in the high amounts to some people who have
had nothing wrong with them medically. We didn't know what to
expect. So the very first man, he did a 42 day food fast, which is
pretty severe food fast. He went for 9 days with only water, he
had a high colonic, and on the 10th day we began to give him 500
mg a day of this material. Now this was not gold. This was rhodium
and iridium. And the reason we chose rhodium and iridium is because
it naturally was in his body. It's in Aloe Vera gel. It's in Ace
Mannan. It's in "Man aloe". It's in carrot juice, it's in grape
juice, it's in grape seed extract, it's in slippery elm bark, it's
in sheep sorrel, it's in many, many materials. And so it's totally
natural, it's not a compound, it's not a drug. It's an elemental
material. It's like taking an iron pill. But these are the atoms
that flow the light of life in your body.

<P>
And according to ancient Egyptians, they said, "You have a physical
body, you have to feed physical foods to so it can grow and become
all that it's meant to be. If you don't feed your material body,
you die or you're very stunted. You don't grow and develop." You
also have a light body, they said, you also must feed so it can
grow and become what it's meant to be. And we haven't been feeding
our light body, because we haven't known what to feed it with.

<P>
500 mg. a day for 30 days, was called the Egyptian rite of passage,
and so we had to find out what does this do. After 5 or 6 days of
taking this material, this fellow began to hear this very high
frequency sound, and every day the sound gets louder, and louder,
and louder, and louder, and louder and louder. By the time he
finished his fast, he said it's like loudspeakers in my brain,
literally roaring this sound. It's the same sound that many of the
meditators have heard, that your told to listen for when you
meditate, to find this sound, but when you think about it most
people don't hear it anymore. Well this sound is roaring in this
man's head, it's roaring day and night, it's roaring when he's
talking on the phone, it's roaring when he's working. And I said,
"Doesn't this disturb you? Isn't this an irritating sound? " and
he said, "Not at all. It's just like nectar", because it doesn't
come through the ears. He said, "It's inside the brain."

<P>
Now it's hard for me to understand. It's hard for probably most of
you to understand. He says, "David, it's just nectar. It's something
that you literally want to go within the sound and just let it
exclude everything out of your life". Basically at the end of the
42 day fast, he went back, he took a body brush to get rid of the
toxins in his body, and he went back eating normally. And he was
eating meat, white meat and vegetables. Well he figured the sound
would die down and go away. It doesn't. The sound is still growing
and getting louder and louder. After 60 more days, the dreams begin,
the revelations begin, and then the visions begin. And this is
going to sound a little far fetched to some of you, but there are
light beings that come to this man and teach him. They never open
their mouth but they telepathically are communicating with him.
And with the hope that I'm not going to offend anyone, there actually
is a female being that comes to him and has sex with him.

<P>
And I didn't understand this until I found in the ancient Vedic
texts that it talks about this, having sex with the angels. 2000
B.C. After about 7 months, he begins to have orgasms. And this is
an adult group basically so I better explain to you, he has no
erection, he has no seminal emission, but it's an orgasm. I says,
"Is it nice?" and he said, "It's just like the real thing". He's
now having about 7-8 a day.

<P>
He said, "Dave, the sound seems to originate about 8 inches above
my head, it comes down into my brain, it's like a hat band around
my head, and it just roars here in my head. I can feel the vibration
all through my body". But after 7 months these orgasms started and
they just got more frequent and more frequent, and it's not something
he controls. It's something that just comes on. Well, he only sleeps
about an hour and a half to two hours now, he doesn't need 7-8
hours like most of us, and so he decided one morning about 4 o'clock
in the morning, he's gonna go outside and just let this orgasm go.
See what happens. He said it began down the pelvis, and it literally,
he just let it move, and he said he could feel it, it came up over
his stomach, up over his chest, up over his head, and he said, "My
whole body was involved in this orgasm". And he said, "I felt hot.
I felt like if someone came up and touched me they would burn their
hand. The all of a sudden, out of the top of my head, goes this
column of energy". He feels it just going right out the top of his
head.

<P>
Ah, I was, about three weeks ago, I was handed a book, called
"Secrets of the Golden Flower" by Richard Wilhelm with an introduction
by Carl Jung. Richard Wilhelm did the eastern translations for
Jung. This book was written in 1931, and it's been translated and
been reproduced, and published several times since then, I guess
it's now in paperback because some people are getting paperback
copies now. Anyway, it verbatim describes this sound. And it says
in the book it seems to all be about this sound, the "hu". Well we
are the hu-man. The man who can hear the sound.

<P>
Okay? This is about the "hu", the sound. And that it says in there
that you get this energy in your pelvis, and that it can be developed
where it literally will take your whole body up over your head and
everything. And when it finally is at a state of perfection that
it will feel like there is a column of light coming right out the
top of your head.

<P>
I think the word that most people use for it is the kundalini.
But that's what it is. This man can cut cards now, and hold them
up, and tell you what the suit is and what the number is, and he's
right 10 out of 10 times. He can tell you who's going to come to
see him tomorrow, he knows what they're going to want to talk about
before they get there, who it's going to be, what they are going
to want to talk about. He says there's this complete feeling of
oneness with all living things, all animals, all humans. It's just
this total unity of oneness with all life.

<P>
According to the "Secrets of the Golden Flower", it takes 10 lunar
months, which happens to be the same as the Egyptian's said, 9
solar months, same time frame, but at the end of this, at the ninth
month, he literally becomes a light being. It's the breaking through
of the cosmic egg, and he literally becomes a light being, capable
of levitating and capable of bio-locating. To literally disappear
here and reappear someplace else.

<P>
Now this sounds pretty preposterous, except if he's a perfect
superconductor, he can levitate, he can walk on water. And tomorrow
I will share with you some of the papers by Harold Puthoff, down
in Austin, Texas, who worked on the government contracts on psychic,
telepathy, mental connections between people, and he's now working
with levitation, time travel and all that. He's published some
papers developing Sakharov's theory about gravity, in which he
says, that gravity is not a gravitational field.

<P>
That gravity, is in fact, the inter-reaction of matter, the protons,
and the neutrons and the electrons, with the zero point, or vacuum
energy.

<P>
And what we experience as gravity is, in fact, the inter-reaction
of the matter with the zero point energy.

<P>
That there is no gravitational field per se. And in his calculations
and in his mathematics, he calculates that when matter is resonance
connected in two dimensions, it no longer interacts in three
dimensions, but it's only interacting in two dimension s, by what
he calls the jitterbug motion, that it loses 4/9s of it's gravitational
weight. Or it only weighs 56 percent, which if you all recall is
exactly what our material weighed. 56 percent, or 5/9s of it's true
weight. Which means that the material is a resonance connected,
quantum oscillator, resonating in two dimensions, which just happens
to be the definition of superconductor.

<P>
But when I met Hal Puthoff, he said, "Dave, you know what this
means, it means, when you can control space-time, if you control
gravity, and you control gravity, you are controlling space-time.
And so literally what these atoms are doing is they are bending
space-time to weigh 5/9s. He says, "There are theories in the
published journals, credible journals, about moving faster than
the speed of light, from one place to another. But to do it you
must have what's called exotic matter, matter that has no gravitational
attraction at all." Do you know that iridium at 70 degrees Centigrade,
I mean 70 degrees Fahrenheit, has no gravitational attraction at
all, and that 70 degrees Fahrenheit is the temperature of your
body, or above, or that your body's above that. And so literally
if our body becomes filled with the light, we literally eat this
until our light body exceeding our physical body, then we supposedly
become light beings.

<P>
And our physical body no longer controls our light body, our light
body now controls our physical body. And anywhere we can think we
would like to go, we can travel there not only spiritually, but
physically, and take our physical body with us. Now coincidentally,
in the Bible, this is referred to as the rapture. It says, two will
be working in the field and one will be gone, two will be laying
in bed and one will be gone. It will be a physical taking up and
disappearing from where you're at. It says in Revelations, 'Blessed
be the man who will overcome for he shall be given the hidden manna,
the white stone of purest kind, up on which will be written a new
name." [Rev. 2:17] You will not be the same person you were before
you took the material.

<P>
It actually says you will have a new name, you will be a different
person. When you become filled with the spirit, when you become
filled with the chrism, you are not the same person you were before.
All of that DNA that these biomedical people can't figure out what
it's it in your body for, it's actually there to function, it just
isn't working right now.

<P>
Right now we only use 8-10 percent of our brain. What's the other
90 percent there for? Did we evolve a brain that we don't use? I
don't think so. It's like at some ancient time we used that brain,
and we used that DNA, and we were a different perso n. Well that
sure sounds awfully philosophical, doesn't it. The Bible says that
at one time we were the Adam Kadmon, we were the angelic being,
and we have fallen to this animalistic state. But in the Bible, it
says, that the day will come when the ancient of days returns here
to Earth. Who is the ancient of days? The ancient of days is the
Adam Kadmon, the original man And when this man returns here and
he literally can read your thoughts in your mind without you opening
your mouth, how much more could you ever be judged? No more skeletons
in the closet, no more hidden agendas. Everything's known. In the
Bible they call it the opening of the book of life.

<P>
It's the time that everything gets judged, everything gets revealed.

<P>
And then, and only then, will you see Christ again. That's when he
returns. Okay? In Revelations, it says, the streets of the new
Jerusalem, will be paved with gold so pure as like unto transparent
glass. [Rev. 21:21] Gold so pure as like unto transparent glass,
and the foundations are made of gold like unto transparent glass.
[Rev. 21:18]

<P>
Now if that isn't heavy enough for you, when I found out that the
name for the golden tree of life was the ORME, ormus or ormes.
And the name of my patent is Orbitally Rearranged Monatomic Elements.
In the Book of Isaiah, it says a latter day David, a descendant of
the Davidic blood line, my cousin, bless her soul joined the Mormon
Church, and they had her do her genealogy, and my great-great-great
grandmother, was Hanna de Guise, daughter of Christopher de Guise,
brother of Charles or Claude de Guise, who if you got a copy of
"Holy Blood Holy Grail" there, Charles or Claude de Guise is in
the book. Nostradamus worked for the de Guise family and Nostradamus
prophesied by 1999 the occult gold will be known to science. Very
specific prophecy, very exact dates, very precise. And a descendent
of this family, a latter day David, is the one who's to plant the
Golden Tree of Life.

<P>
And I didn't know any of this when I filed my patent. And so when
you realize what this is, and you realize what it does, and you
realize why it's here, then you realize why my job is not to make
money with it. I can't make money with it. My job is to tell those
people who are ready for it what the state of things are and when
it's going to be available. I can't sell it, I will solicit donations
to cover our costs in producing it. But it has to be made available
for those people who are ready for it.

<P>
And this is called the Lesser Keys of Solomon, the Keys to the
Kingdom.

<P>
Remember the Petra, the Rock, held the keys to the Kingdom, Peter,
the Keeper of the Keys? And this is called the Keys to the Kingdom.

<P>
It's not the answer, but it's the door that unlock, it's the key
that unlocks the door to the answer. You no longer have to die to
literally come face to face with the angels, to experience what
most of these people call, when they died and came back to life,
it's an unbelievable feeling of oneness. The closest most of you
will ever be to another person is during the moment of sex. Think
about it? And yet this is even more than that. Because you're one
heart and one mind with everyone. Somebody said it would make a
great title for a book, "Better Than Sex".

<P>
Well, it is all about love, total oneness with everyone. It's
perfect telepathy, perfect communication, it's total love and total
oneness.

<P>
When you understand that superconductors don't have to touch, okay,
we're back to the science again. In electricity, the wires have to
touch before electricity can flow from one wire to another wire,
but superconductors can sit at a distance, and as long as they are
in resonant harmony, and their Meissner fields touch, they are one.
Because they flow light between them. So they act as one superconductor.
So when you are a perfect superconductor, and she is a perfect
superconductor, you are one with her heart and her mind. You know
all things about her. Perfect telepathy.

<P>
And that is the Judgment. That is the Oneness.

<P>
Now what does it do in the body? It literally corrects the DNA, by
a process the equivalent of a denaturing solution, the DNA relaxes
and recombines corrected. So all diseases that originate with a
problem with the DNA can be corrected, but your reason for taking
it cannot be to correct a disease. Your reason for taking it has
to be a philosophical reason. It has to be to enlighten and to
raise the nature of mankind. If in doing that, it happens to cure
the diseases, so be it. Anyway I don't want to give all of the
lecture tomorrow, ah, tomorrow in the workshop, what I want to do
is we're gonna present transparencies of the history of the alchemy,
the philosopher's stone. We're going to give you the, a bunch of
the, the books that I found that are very excellent books. We're
going to read from some of those and put them up on the board,
we're going to read from, ah, in addition to the science. And so,
I hope the workshop will have something for about everybody. Ah,
I think you all know, most of know what this stuff is and why it
is here now. Most of you had known it was coming. It, eventually,
was going to be here.

<P>
And, ah, this is an ultra-conservative, right wing, John Birch type
guy here, and, ah, you know, one who believes that the free-enterprise
system is the best system given the nature of man like he is. He's
selfish and he's greedy, and he's to be, tempted with money and
wealth, and when you understand what this is, this changes the
nature of man, that literally all of the things we value now are
no longer important. When you no longer need to eat, when you
literally can be fed on the resonance fields of the universe. All
you need is water. When you no longer need energy, you can travel
anywhere you want just by thinking where you'd like to be and be
there. When you can live 800-1,000 years with perfect body, literally
every cell in your body perfected and corrected. And then your
metabolism speeds up about 45 or 50 percent, you return to the
state you were when you were a teenager and you can stay in that
state. This is what the material is.

<P>
We don't have all the answers yet. There's a tremendous amount of
research study that needs to be done by the medical people on it.
We have an awful lot of doctors already working on it. AIDS, cancer
all working on it. We have National Institute of Health licensing
and permitting to do it. And, ah, all I can tell you is it's here,
it ain't going to go away if you don't believe it, and, ah, it will
change the world more than anything in the last 2,000 years.

<P>
Okay? [end of lecture]

<HR>

<P>
[
<A HREF="1995-02-dallas-toc.html">Table-of-Contents</A>
·
<A HREF="1995-02-dallas-a-discovery.html">Discovery</A>
·
<A HREF="1995-02-dallas-d-white-powder-gold.html">White Powder Gold</A>
·
<A HREF="1995-02-dallas-e-qa.html">Q&amp;A</A>
·
<A HREF="1995-02-dallas-f-workshop-1.html">Workshop-1</A>
·
<A HREF="1995-02-dallas-g-workshop-2.html">Workshop-2</A>
]

</BODY>

</HTML>

<b><font color="royalblue"><font size="5">Well that was different</b></font color></font size>:rolleyes:

:rolleyes: ........fascinating..........pure energy!!!!!!


:rolleyes: ..........<font size="4"> Before any of you !*$#^@......get started..I DIDN'T WRITE THE ABOVE ARTICLE!!!!!!!</FONT SIZE>

:rolleyes: ..........I just posted from the address that our "old" buddy: Time/02112........ gave out in a previous post.

WHITE POWDER GOLD. NOT OF THE COCO VARIETY, I HOPE.

Damn! Where is Mr. Boris (the wise old owl) when you need him!!!!.....??????

<I><font size="4"> BUT SERIOUSLY NOW FOLKS</I></FONT SIZE>

There are some interesting points............days of fasting, spiritual enlightenment, ect...

<B>However... (Howey-evers....)........</B>

<I>"I'm not a doctor so I can't practice medicine.
Anything that is administered to someone for the purpose of curing
a disease is medicine. So therefore I can't tell you on tape what's
been done with it, what the doctors who have giving it have done
with it, but I can tell you that at 2 mg. it totally has gotten
rid of Karposi Sarcomas on AIDS patients, at 2 mg. per day. 2 mg.
per day. There's 32,000 milligrams in an ounce, 2 mg. is nothing.
And it gets rid of "KS". I can tell you that people who have taken
it, at 2 mg. injections, within 2 hours, their white blood cell
count goes from 2,500 to 6,500 white blood cells. I can tell you
that stage 4 cancer patients have taken it orally, and after 45
days have no cancer anyplace in the body. We're not gonna go into
any more specifics than that. I will talk to you about it later
when the cameras aren't running.




I am not a doctor"

<b>(commentary by Howard):</i>Now run this by me again!!!!!!!!! Is the author of the article proposing that this "White Gold" is a miracle cure-all for a variety of illnesses????????</b></i>

Primarily I am most interested in this "White Gold". What is it??? The distillation of Gold into a powder?????? Now being that your old buddy Howard knows a thing or two about the distillation of alchohol, I know a little about the refinement of distillation processes in which a subject chemical is evaporated off (boiled) away from the base & then condensed into a different container to hopefully produce a much more refined version................ect, ect... ..........:rolleyes:

Now I am Not going to be a total sh..err....Craphead about this! There are many things in this article which has a tendency to excite one's imagination! This is actually a good thing. Further research on the part of the reader will possibly disprove a lot of these things, but it nonetheless does cause an emotional response in disbelievers as well as some who are 'highly imaginative'. This is a good thing.

That the post of time/... opens up other minds to other possibilities is actually awesome!!!! And I ain't just sayin' that to be patronizing!!!!!!!!! The investigation of Egyptology and all the other ancient writings can only add to one's arsenal of Science studies!!!!!!!!!! In fact I continue to believe that any student of science who attempts to be singularly specialized in one field of science will never be able to stand out & above the already crowded science specialities.

In other words,<i>"VARIETY IS THE *SPICE* OF LIFE" (Herbert's DUNE)</i>

.....................???????????????

..........I think I'll go back to the actual website and read some more. The spiritual orgasim part is particularly fascinating:D ;)

Originally posted by Hermann
Howardstern, your detailed explanations are extremely interesting, but the comments of Chagur are valid, too.

I think we have to look for latent geniuses - even in a ghetto New York Scene - in order to teach them the necessary basic knowledge and to give them resources and time to develop or to realize their inner power. I don't think we can breed geniuses, but we can wake them up.

I understand your materialistic world-view, which is not free of preconceptions, and I regard it as a believable belief - but is this the only one? Would you be able just to imagine the possibility, that individual souls could exist? What about an alternative world-view as I have described on my website (http://home.t-online.de/home/hraith/english.htm) ?
Would you tolerate this also as a "believable belief"?

<I><B>Dear Sir,

I very much appreciate your conversation on this science forum. Seldom do I get the chance to converse on the various subjects with someone who is willing to engage with such a maniac.....that I am!

Especially German! Hell, half of my bloodline is germanic. As my great-great grandfather told me, the old family name of my German ancestors was "Von Holdenburg"......originally. As the time passed from the mid 19th century, the old family name was Americanized~~~~~~... to Holdendburg~~~, then to Holdenburo~~~~~~, then to Holderby. Anyhow....my sir name is Old English........:rolleyes:

Anyhow!!!!!!!:confused: Where was I?

<b>I checked out the address of your site and read on. I liked it a lot! Often I am seen as an atheist and a disbeliever, Hermann. Let me assure you sir, and all the others who read these posts (that don't normally post their thoughts for fear that HOWARDSTERN will jump down their throats (an American saying)) THAT I AM <U>NOT</U> AN ATHEIST, AT ALL ! ! !

In fact, I am a very spiritual and a deeply religious individual. <i>If you really want to know the truth Hermann, I am probably more faithful than the POPE HIMSELF!</i>

It is not my intention to draw doubt onto the faithful. Often however, I do get a chuckle from some of the Zealots, ect..... There are the anti-ZEALOTS (atheist) as well. Those who cannot find truth in the religions generally don't have the ability to find truth in the cold, hard logicals either.

<font size="4"><font color ="blue">YES, THERE IS SUCH A THING AS SPIRITUAL ENERGY</FONT COLOR></FONT SIZE>

I don't understand or really have a clue as to how this "spiritual energy" works. I wouldn't even suggest that it may be electromagnetic in it's base form! I have no Sci....or even psuedo-Sci idea in regards to it's origins. It does exist. I am quite sure of that. But all attempts to document it , except for a few, have failed. its almost like this energy has "Stage Fright".

There is something to be understood about the very thin line between science and religion. That undefineable point makes me wonder if there is not a little of each (religion in science as well as science in religion) on both sides of the fence! Both science and faith hold at their heart, the search for truth. Heck, by coincidence, I also have a deep desire to always find the truth.




............later...

Howardstern,

I read the text about "White Gold" in the link given by Times/.. before your mails arrived and came to a similar result. It looks like a mixture of science fiction and esoteric stories. It seems to be wasted time to follow up such things, because there is no rational access to and therefore also no basis for discussions.

Please answer my request above.

YEAH THE WHITE GOLD POWDER IDEA SEEMS A BIT FLAKEY....

What's that old Greek Mythology liquer...elixor...called....for immortality and godhood,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,...... to turn a mortal man into a god........................................hell, I can't remember!



Anyhow!!!!!!!........ I like to read read through all varieties of present ideas and past writings, Hermann. Such things as the legend of Atlantis & the lost Ark of the covenant are imaginative, desirable, and hopeful studies that I admit to being a hopeful, "Indiana Jones" in an understandable desire to "Go on a Quest" and to also find fame and fortune, ect..

Heck Hermann, we all do. I am completely aware that studied, intellectuals all, will have fantasies regarding new discoveries which are based on ancient mythology.

And as well, I do always keep an eye & an ear open to ancient mythological accounts as they may or may not apply to modern science.

Damn, I have got to learn to speak the German language!!! Quite likely the most brilliant people on the face of the planet Earth, and I can't even say hello in the language!

...........???????????

Howardstern,

Sorry, just now I noticed that I have overseen your very kind reply to my question and to my website - it was hidden by too much "White Powder" - thanks a lot.

Up to now I had a lot of discussions via the internet. Besides the discussion with you I enjoy most the discussion in the MSN forum "The Abyss Gazes Also" - you will find there my corresponding thread "Dualism contra Materialism" at:

http://communities.msn.com/TheAbyssGazesAlso/general.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=2078

Perhaps you will have a look and I will meet you there again.

Very interesting thread. My computer friends tell me that DNA is like an UNIX operating system more than the Microsoft's Windows Operating System (OS). In Unix, except the basic stuff, you need to buy/ steal (social interaction) every software to do anything. In Microsoft's case, the OS just keeps adding new stuff. Someday, you do not need any other software to load - unless Government thinks (God) that is a monopoly and must be stopped.

If we tinker our DNA, we could add more features to it thereby a child could be born with a High School diploma when one of the gene switches on by sixth birthday.

Just a thought....

kmguru,

Thanks for your contribution and your interesting thought. But switching DNA to an age with High School diploma would require, that the education of the last 100 years is stored in our genes, which seems not to be the case (see discussion with Wet1 on page1). Or have you any reasons to assume that?

Hermann
(my updated homepage:
http://home.t-online.de/home/hraith/english.htm)

Hermann:

Interesting website. Are you taking issue with the statement that encoding new information to the DNA is impossible because it is breaking some physical law (that we know of)?

An analogy is the movie fifth element - you may want to watch it and return with your side of the argument - noting, it is only a crude analogy.

The problem with forward looking statements is that risk management is difficult when predictions are besed on common instances - like our economy in the last 9 months. No one (except a few brave ones) followed the proper procedure to contain the risk even though we all know the math behind it.

kmguru,

I am not concerned about physical laws. But I think it is the general understanding, that genetic information has been generated by Darwin's evolution only (just random mutations and selection by survival). In this theory is no room for writing of intellectual information to genes within a short period of time (e.g. 100 years) like writing to a hard disk. This opinion has been confirmed by Wet1. If we think it is possible to write to genes (except by gene engineering) we would question the natural process of evolution.

Originally posted by Hermann
If we think it is possible to write to genes (except by gene engineering) we would question the natural process of evolution.

Any process undertaken by humans or of human interaction that results in the alteration of gene expression can be called genetic engineering. My point still stands as to :yes we can add new information to our genes.

kmguru,

The question is not, whether we can add new information to genes by gene manipulation, but whether nature does add new intellectual information to genes. We can use the word "evolution" for everything (e.g. technological evolution), but this has nothing to do with genes. There is no gene, which describes the construction of an atomic bomb. Genes describe the construction of our brain, but not the intellectual content (if there is any at all). Here I am just talking about the knowledge of the last 100 years - not about instincts grown over very long time, which could be regarded as intellectual as well. Therefore there is also no genetic information corresponding a High School diploma as you mentioned in your first message.

That question has been answered in a way in early 50s. My highschool biology text book had a chapter that contained the following story.

During the forties, scientist noticed that percupines who were getting run over by model Ts in England, over a few generations, the offsprings learned to avoid the cars. They reasoned that somehow the survival instict is passed on to the offsprings. After all, nature has built in gene expression for the survival of the species.

So in a way nature will encode those traits necessary for the survival whether boosting intelligence to manage new information or plain physical charecteristics for the survival.

But point was we can add more quickly artificially a lot of stuff.

http://www.webpromotion.com/anim/stock01/white/01_21_w.gif

I believe that it is very possible to encode genes to give an individual a head start. For instance, to give the embryo the proclivity to learn repidly when exposed to new information, to be able to retain that info at a glance, to have long term memory capabilities. This might add up to having that high school education by the 6th grade.

I do not believe that we can encode that by way of genes. Your talking a lot of info in small places. And there might be another way. Prehaps at that age or later a chip or chips might be wired to "turn on" giving a data bank in which resides the info to be given. An instant education but there would be a delay between turn on time and use. The info must first be reviewed to be learned. It might be that as needed it would show up and from then on would be known.

Once we start outside natures path we best be sure we know what were doing. For there would be a period during which the generations would interact. Go to far beyond the norm and you could very well have a witch hunt for any strange or modified human. Past history has shown this to be so. People do not like that which is different and are very suspicious of such. If you let a mistake get away and the mistake does not show up till a decade later, it will be hard to call it back. This is in part why I called it a Pandora's box.

Pandora's box? yes it is.

When I was growing up, my family gave me certain herbs to speed up learning process. Whether it was placebo or not it did work. I finished high school 2 years ahead. Today I do intelligence analysis for businesses. I quickly found out that smartness itself does not help. You need a lot of data to act upon. I have to assimilate large amount of information from global economy to technology to consumer psychology to make any usable advisory.

What I need is a brain plug that sucks the data very fast. The normal reading process is too slow. Any one ready to design one?

Originally posted by kmguru
Pandora's box? yes it is.

When I was growing up, my family gave me certain herbs to speed up learning process. Whether it was placebo or not it did work. I finished high school 2 years ahead. Today I do intelligence analysis for businesses. I quickly found out that smartness itself does not help. You need a lot of data to act upon. I have to assimilate large amount of information from global economy to technology to consumer psychology to make any usable advisory.

What I need is a brain plug that sucks the data very fast. The normal reading process is too slow. Any one ready to design one?

was it enviroment or was it actually a working formula? It is obvious that you have given it thought. As children we try to live up to what is expected and if properly rewarded continue as this is what should be. In essence we are molded into what is viewed as the right way to be and how to be an adult. Interesting...

It was a combination of Gotu Kola and a whole slew of other stuff. I can recognize Gotu Kola being a capillay blood flow enhancer. It is possible the stuff enhances more neural connections. But without a before and after count of connections, it is impossible to tell. I do not think we have any non-invasive procedure that counts number of neural connections. It will be intersting to test that on Alzheimer's (sp) patients.

But the chemical, if works, probably enhances only 20% (which could be within the parameters of human capabilities). You may be able to boost by chemical means IQ from 165 to 185, but that is not much at 165. You get more bang raising 80 to 100. What we need is an order of magnitude like 10 times more connections and improve the processing speed. That means some gene manipulation. Somehere I read that British scientists found a gene that improves IQ by one point. That will make those neo-nazi's a super race!!!

Another way is to implant a processor that will have fewer problems.

Kmguru and Wet1,

It may be possible to achieve a higher IQ or a faster learning speed via gene engineering, but this concerns just the construction or functioning of our brain - not its content. I think it is impossible to add intellectual information (knowledge of High School diploma) to genes - not by nature and not by engineering. Can you agree with that?

I disagree. I think you can add information to the genes via engineering. Data compression technology has come a long way. Todays latest is the fractal technology. While you wo'nt be able to add a lot of text files, you can add math and associations, relationships and rules.

Next step is you create a gene set that creates the memory network in the brain (or anywhere else for that matter). This memory set will look like a glob of protein to outsiders but when activated at proper time will be the high school diploma memory set that will interact with the six year old child that already has the tools to access the data and can interact with the learned data since birth.

I think, Hermann, where you are having problem is that you are taking issue in adding pure data to the DNA - and I agree. But there is a round about way to solve this problem. I just pulled this out of my @#$. Given time, I can architect a better method.

At the end of the day, yes you can add information to the DNA by gene engineering. I can architect it for you if your lab has the money.

______________________________
nonlinear thinking is the future...

That info can be added is not the problem I see. Its scope is the thing I have a hang-up with (if you will).

Insects are given instincts that are pretty much functional as soon as they are able to obtain food for themselves. This is information on a level I understand and easily accept. Nature adds and takes away this info on a very long and slow time frame. What we discuss is in essence the same thing on a much faster pace. Nature makes sure that survival takes precedence. There is no such net for our willful interference with her designs. Understanding down to the n th degree becomes necessary because of this. So maybe we all learn something here.

It was pointed out in another post that instinct and intelligence come up to about the same thing. No matter how you slice the cake the actions come out to fundamentally take care of the problem. But intelligence takes that a step farther in that willful interference with what instinct says you should do is allowable, no matter what the end results. Intelligence also allows the capability to learn and pass on that learning and to modify that learning to suit changing conditions and to anticipate before some problem or crisis arrives to more fully prepare to deal with it.

But to encode an education is quite scary. The conquers and victorious most often go straight to the schools to change what is learned to benefit their circumstances no matter what history says happened. For all intents and purposes history is rewritten to state whatever is desired. I think you see where I going with this. How mush simpler it is to change. Comments?

Now back to the point from where I wandered. To encode an education would be a massive undertaking. Just look at what it has been to map the genome. And here we are talking inserting info to exacting standards. I see the chip insert as a much more preferable option. (Even allowing that it doesn’t have self perpetuation potential} Easily modified at a later date to give the higher education for later life. And we are much closer to the capability than to the biologic one.

I guess the questions that first come to mind is how much space is required to encode data? What percentage of total mass is used and how much is obtained from it? How could we approach 100% usage of capacity of the brain instead of the 10% that we now enjoy? What abilities would that give/allow? How much redundancy is necessary to ensure that mutation does not eliminate a specific bit in the coding? How much space does that take up from the total available? I would not like my descendants to look like a camel. (Call it nostalgia or just plain fixed in the ways)

I agree on the scary part. But we are not in a kidie forum. In this advanced technology (well, science!) forum, all bets are off. Long time ago, I was solving a very complex technical problem. Both my boss and I, told his boss at the same time that given enough time and money we can solve anything. And we did for the problem at hand. Once we solve how it is done, then we debate the ethical implications. That is why governments have policy procedures. This is not your fifties where things are slow moving.

Yesterday, I was reading the TV guide when you (wet1) are posting this. I was reading about the new startrek series and how they have to improve on the gadgets was was/is shown in the old series because we surpassed the technology in real life. I was watching the reruns of Voyeger. In it, a group of aliens took over the ship. What a bunch of crock. Today, I can design weapon systems that if fell in to the wrong hands will blow up in their face. And an AI ship can not protect itself? when the hologram people can act like normal human beings - give me a break! The story was written by a non technical person for drama effect.

Back to the subject. My expert opinion is that yes, we can add a lot of stuff in to the brain. Should we? that is a whole another debate. Today we can compress a terabyte to 100MB (10:1). Using fractal technology we could do more. Our brain compresses data much more efficiently than we can do technically. Video data can be compresses 50:1 or more. Brain probably compacts it at one million to one rate (may be more) on old or seldom used memories.

It will be a massive undertaking when you figure it took nature a few million years. But fear not, soon we will have AIs with a thousand times more processing power than humans.

So, there you have it.....

kmguru,

I cannot share your belief in almighty sciences and technologies as you have expressed.

If you are interested in my view I would like to draw your attention to message 25 (response to message 23) at:

http://communities.msn.com/MeaningofLife/general.msnw?action=get_message&ID_Message=10689

Hello Hermann;

You are such a kidder. On one hand you use my almighty (as you put it) Science and Technology to post your beliefs and then complain that.....

Are you by any chance from the Amish clan?

I believe that "instinct" in all living organisms is a trial and error, generation by generation result as stated in Darwin's Natural Selection theory. Obviously it must be.

Let's look at an example form of life: A Chimpanzee for instance.

As many of you are already aware of, the chimpanzee has the ability to use rudimentary tools, much in the same way as humans do. from sticks, clubs, rocks,............hell I even saw a very old Chimp from many years ago, who had been raised by someone who worked in a Bar (tavern/pub). The old chimp had learned to tend the bar and serve drinks!

The old chimp may or may not have been a natural genious among the whole chimp species. However if a long term laboratory experiment were to be carried out in which scientists were to test many thousands of chimps for high intellectual capabilities and breed the most intelligent chimps together while killing off those chimps that were simply to stupid to meet the minimum intellectual requirements, then the obvious resultant offspring of the experiment would absolutely produce a variety of Chimpanzee that would be far more intelligent than it's Jungle Cousins!

<i>In the previous mentioned experiment, genetic scientists would take on the role of "Mother Nature". </i>Those chimps that are <u>most fit</u> to survive the harsh conditions of their laboratory environment (be smart or be killed by the scientists), will inevitably be around the next day to choose mates, that are also very intelligent.

<b>IT IS NOT A TRAGEDY, IT IS JUST A SIMPLE FACT OF LIFE.</B> Whether it is <i>blood thirsty scientists, or gradually changing earth environmental conditions that kill off those living organisms (chimps in this example), the fact remains that those that survive another day and breed will have offspring that will carry it's successful parents' traits. This is how we humans came into existence. </i>

In my self confident opinion, I expect that our closest primate relative, the chimpanzee, developed other varieties of chimps long ago, that must have become separated from the main group that we know of today. I imagine that an off shoot variety of chimp long ago became nomadic and travelled over vast areas of the earth, while the main group of chimps from the "Old Country" stayed contently in the jungle.

This "off shoot" variety of nomadic chimp must have had good environmental conditions in which to flourish and thrive over vast, temperate zones of the earth during this time period. From this nomadic branch of APE, there were most probably more branches (varieties) of ape. However, I believe that the earth's regional environmental conditions changed and became more harsh, especially in the northern and southern regions of the earth's hemisphere. It is in these farther latitudes that I believe that our nomadic chimp ancestors had been living for some great amount of time.

These theoretical environmental changes may have been a rapid cool down of the earth that may have caused certain lucky varieties of the nomadic chimps to seek the ocean and become an aquatic Ape. Or perhaps environmental conditions became too good, at which point there may have been a large upsurge of land predators! This might also cause the nomadic apes to seek refuge in the oceans (or perhaps swamps (Swamp Ape)) and thereby lose their heavy coat of body and facial hair from lack of necessity (Use it or Lose it). Whatever the case, it has been reasonably established that our primate ancestors returned to the ocean (or swamps/marshes), if only for a while. As these environmental changes gradually (theoreticallY) took place, the chimps of the old country presumably changed little, if at all.

I am guessing that some short time later (hell......100 years, to as much as 10,000 years (or even a great deal more)), environmental conditions became temperate and conducive to life in the farther latitudes once again. In Evolutionary time, I think that the warm up, or the extinction of land predators came pretty damned quickly!

Maybe it was an asteroid. But how and when,........ and how many times? An asteroid may have first caused a large extinction which caused our nomadic chimp ancestors to evolve into a water ape, since some following decendants may have been more able (by gradual mutation each generation) to eat & breed & have offspring if they stayed near the oceans or swamps, while their nomadic parents were wiped out because they were surviving off the land only. If environmental conditions changed fairly quickly, the only likely Survivors of the nomadic ape branch would have been those who were reasonably well adapted to survive in the much more stable oceans, swamps, or perhaps near ocean shorelines. I believe that sometime in this period, the development of webbing in between the fingers and toes of our ancestors occured. An asteroid caused extinction and following winter might explain this and <u>might</u> also explain a quick return to temperate conditions that could cause the the aquatic apes' decendants to return quickly to the lands of the Earth. I say that the aquatic apes' decendants returned quickly to the land because if there hadn't been a quick return to the land, then the aquatic apes' decendants would have likely adapted so very much to the water that their decendants, and thus we humans would likely bear far less resemblence to our Congo cousins today! During all this time, CONGO THE GORILLO (gorilla's/chimps in africa) may have managed to survive by the large vegetation canopy and therefore changed little.

Environmental hardship has likely caused the modern man to come into being. Most recently, I believe that the Ice Age, or perhaps several ice ages have led to mankind developing great mental capacity over all of the other animals on this earth. It seems likely to me that fast changing environmental conditions in the northern and southern hemispheres may have left decendants of the aquatic ape to die off once again, save those that had began to think in abstracts. Perhaps these surviving decendants first began to cover themselves with animal hides..... Most of their close relatives of the time may not have had the ability to figure out that a bare ape will freeze to death while a smart ape will keep warm under the blankets with his woman and have offspring that will also have enough sense to use animal hides, tools, shelter.

As this smarter variety of ape continued to breed with other smart apes over several generations, those apes who couldn't figure out these rudimentary things simply died off, or were bred out of noticeble existance........perhaps gradually. I believe that possibly one tribe of these smart apes may have become exceptional beyond all other tribes. As a result, I believe that the physical braun of all the other tribes simply could not evolve quickly enough to compete with the decendants of the smart apes.

<I>Much more temperate and survivable conditions may have come and gone many times after this. It would be of great benefit to any student of evolution to also have knowledge of geology, paleontogy, archeology, ect.. I say this because I am a firm believer that the changing environmental conditions of the Earth, from the very beginning, has precisely caused, and is precisely responsible for ALL of the various forms of life today! Even more than that, I believe that the effect, not only of our sun, but of all the other solar sytems, galaxies, ect.... must be formulated into the theory of the evolution of life on this planet! To me, all of the fields of science are to be understood as one science and to be a specialist in one particular field will inhibit one's ability to develop a reasonable grasp of the big picture in scientific understanding.</i>

<b>SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST</B>. Whatever environmental conditions led to the development of the highly advanced human brain, it ought to become clear to most of my fellow curious friends, that it is the evolution of the modern human brain that has made the survival of the human race possible. Therefore creative, abstract thought capabilities must have developed by the processes of succeeding genetic mutations that were passed down from each successfully surviving generation to the next surviving generation - and so on.

<b>Food for thought for the student of evolution.</b><I> Each person's brain is a constantly evolving device that allows our physical bodies to adapt to a variety of constantly changing environmental conditions. </i> This is an undeniable fact. Where a Tiger may continue to do well as long as the environment does not change too quickly for his decendants to physically adapt to, he (they) cannot adapt to a sudden, catastrophic change in his environment, while humans can adapt with thought, tools, ..... to find a way to survive. It is a fact that the very thought processes in the human brain do "evolve" as we think! I believe that the very same rules of evolution that have made us (survival of the fittest (or of the fittest thoughts in the subconcious)) are also the primary rules of our thought processes as we think! I say this because I know that evolution works better and more efficiently than any other type of problem solving approach/computer language than is known. The main problem with a tiger's evolution is that it works too slowly. However, the very same method of evolution works well for us because of the evolution of thought that takes place in our brains very quickly and allows us to adapt to changing environmental conditions in seconds as opposed to decades and centuries of evolution required for the tiger ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !


What I am saying folks, is that as I may decide to learn how to become ......a Warp Drive Engineer, my brain may become capable of adapting within a relatively short period of time, whereas if the tiger had to quickly physically evolve over many generations to be able to travel among the stars, it would die out first.

<B>Can the manipulation of genes literally cause a newborn human being to have an IQ of 250+...????? Hell yes! No question about it! Just because people haven't been born speaking languge and doing math only means that past environmental conditions haven't required the natural selection process to produce a human race that is born smart! In fact that kind of goes against the grain of the development of the human brain!!!! The main strength of the mamalian human brain is it's flexibility and adaptability. Therefore I strongly believe that if genetic scientists ever succeed in programming knowledge into an unborn being, this knowledge will be placed in the very same areas of the genes as does exist the codes for INSTINCT ! ! !</b>



This evolution law is not limited to life only. It applies to all understanding. It is the process by which we interpret the universe. The scientist who cannot grasp this will always follow in the path of those who pioneer.



..............:confused: SCREW THIS ! ! ! !....:confused: I'M TIRED!!! TALK AT YA'LL LATER!!!!!!!!!


HS/HS...........

kmguru,

I am not belonging to the Amish clan and also not to any religious organization. My aim is just to search for a "believable belief" which is most satisfying and not in conflict with scientific facts. My reason for entering this forum, was to learn about facts, which have to be considered.

Scientists working in spectacular fields like this are regarded as gurus by many people and therefore especially these have the duty to differentiate carefully between facts and speculations. I have nothing against wild speculations, because they give the motivation for corresponding research, but they have to be declared as such. Just this differentiation I was missing in your posts.

Can you confirm, that up to now there is no evidence that knowledge, e.g. in science, can be encoded in genes? This question has nothing to do with a high IQ or with high abilities for learning. The question is just, whether a child with such genes could grow up in an environment without specific teaching and suddenly it will be able to explain e.g. Einstein's theories.


Howardstern,

You gave a very good explanation how evolution works and I can agree with this totally. Just when you say "Therefore I strongly believe that if genetic scientists ever succeed in programming knowledge into an unborn being, this knowledge will be placed in the very same areas of the genes as does exist the codes for INSTINCT ! ! ! " I would have some reservations.
But you declared this as your "belief" and made the condition "if scientists ever succeed …". Therefore I hope you can confirm, that there is up to now no evidence, that this will be possible. I have no objections against speculations in such directions, although according to my momentary world-view (belief), this will be not possible.

Originally posted by Hermann
kmguru,

My reason for entering this forum, was to learn about facts, which have to be considered.

I have nothing against wild speculations, because they give the motivation for corresponding research, but they have to be declared as such. Just this differentiation I was missing in your posts.

Can you confirm, that up to now there is no evidence that knowledge, e.g. in science, can be encoded in genes? This question has nothing to do with a high IQ or with high abilities for learning. The question is just, whether a child with such genes could grow up in an environment without specific teaching and suddenly it will be able to explain e.g. Einstein's theories.


Hermann

This forum is a little more advanced than a lot of other forums including MSN. Here we expect the members to know the facts. If you want to know how certain theory works, you can refer to books, published journals etc. Sometimes junior members come here looking for mentoring. It is our privilege to point them in the right direction.

Some facts are not in publication. There is no peer review process in applied technology. For example, I am an enterprise architect in information management. What I design is way-out beyond what you will study in graduate program in the universities, or genetic research facilities or database vendors. That is because, we are consultants. Companies who use our services, usually keep that information a secret because of competitiveness.

When I joined the workforce after my graduate studies, I thought I knew everything. There is a whole world out there that is beyond books and movies....anyway, your point is well taken.

My area of expertise is in Knowledge Management and Complexity Management. I will not speculate anything if I can not do it myself. When I say this would happen in 10 years, that means I know some companies that are doing the research today towards that goal. Other speculations are based on forecasting the technology curve that I am expert in.

So when I posted that data can be added to human genome, I can do it in 5 years (morelikely 10). As they say, it is no rocket science - and I have done that too. I am much more closer to bioinformatics having consulted to two leading companies than what you will read in publications. So all I can say is...trust me...

I do not like to beat my own drums but here I have no choice because I hate to search the internet to find other peoples drums (links and such) every time I post.

So, Hermann, I hope you understand the basis of my post and no flame is intended. So that we can continue on your other thoughts I read at your website as soon as Dave sets up an Eastern Philosophy section.

kmguru,

Thanks for your explanations, which cleared our misunderstandings.

Let me offer you now an alternative way of thinking:

The "evolution" of cars is quite similar to the genetic evolution, you have just to replace "survival" by "market".
In future we will have cars fitted with lots of sensors, actuators and memories, which will make accidents impossible. When entering the car you have just to mention the name e.g. "Peter" and the car will drive you there, while you have to do nothing. The car will not know, that you want to go to Peter in that moment, unless this was planned in advance. But the car will certainly not know what you will tell Peter.

With all your expertise you can make our bodies and brains to very comfortable tools for the individual souls (as drivers). Therefore I think, it is impossible to generate genes with intellectual knowledge and abilities assuming you would not regard something like a navigator as an intellectual feature. Let's see what will happen during the next 20 years.

Best regards
Hermann
(URL: http://home.t-online.de/home/hraith/english.htm)

The car will not know, that you want to go to Peter in that moment, unless this was planned in advance. But the car will certainly not know what you will tell Peter.

Again Hermann, you are back in to my domain of expertise. I do not know what they do in your neck of the woods, however, I can design a car (the AI part) that will guess that you are going to see Peter and that you will be talking about certain primary topic or go fishing - the same deduction, your wife, kids, roommate would know. In otherwords the car will act as a trusted friend with the same or even better deductive power than your closest friend.

Presently I am putting finishing touches on my architecture of an avatar that will do just that. Now as far as manipulating human genome to store data at the DNA level, - the architecture is within my capability. What is not is the formula for a specific protein synthesis and bio-structure that can be zipped to the DNA so that when you unzip it, it develops to that structure. Because I do not work in building bio-structures, it will take me a couple of years of intense study to pick up the technology and move forward. But it can be done.

Bottom Line: Both of the technology is within my capabilities. One is going on as I write. Ordinarily, the data to add to DNA would not be necessary and expensive while living on the planet. But if we want to send people on a 830 year journey to colonize other planets (see a thread in this forum), we may have to do this.

kmguru,

Can you design a car (AI part) with self-awareness or consciousness?

YES. Once the AI part is done, you can easily install in a car with all the sensors attached. The problem is not in the software, it is the hardware that limits me today. It is like if you went back in time to 1955 and are told to build a laptop.

Other technologies are coming nicely for my project. The link for one of them is:

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/01_30/b3742031.htm

In case the link does not connect, the topic is "Digital Object Identifier" (DIO)

I just talked to a friend who is a retired professor who has worked on a software that is superfast. They spent $20 million to develop it from our defense contract. That is another item in my toolbox.

I had my own doubts 5 years ago, but not anymore.

kmguru,

What is self-awareness or consciousness? We feel it, but we cannot describe it. Nobody of us can be sure that other people feel it like we do, because all corresponding signs we get from other people and the results of all corresponding psychological tests can be easily computer simulated. But if self-awareness or consciousness cannot be described or observed, it cannot be a "Digital Object" (string of bits) and therefore also not an object for DOI.

Hermann,

The answer to your question becomes a new thread in a separate topic. I moved it to General Philosophy. Meet me there.
Thanks

<b>Yep Hermann, I goofed when I wrote that knowledge would be programmed into the centers for instinct.</b> The centers of the mammalian brain are of the most primal areas and I do not believe that those centers are capable of supporting large amounts of retrievable data (knowledge), in the current breeds of man.

To me, instinct and emotion are one in the same. I believe that almost all animals possess very similiar development in basic layout of these parts of the brain. These areas of the brain basically act upon the knowledge portions of the brain to satisfy primal needs and desires which are deemed necessary according to the animal's (human's) particular evolutional lineage. Most instinctual behavior is hard wired in the brain by the genetic evolution of a human, however I believe that future generations could be genetically modified to have a much increased capacity in these instinct centers.

The point that I was trying to make was that instincts are rudimentary genetically coded thought patterns that cause a variety of actions of a living being. there are many examples of this to be found in man and in all other animals. These instinctual thought patterns are modified in every new generation of human that is born. The combination of parental genes causes this. Since it is possible to have genetically hard wired thought patterns in these parts of the brain, it seems likely that even more complex data could be genetically programmed into this area. <i>Unfortunately, the massive amount of genetically coded knowledge data would probably have catastrophic consequences on the being's emotional state of mind. </I>

<b>The memory centers of the brain would be the better choice,</b> however these areas are presently devoted to retaining <i>learned</i> knowledge. Perhaps when the primal instinct areas of the brain are fully understood, it may then become possible for genetic designers to modify a part of the memory center to accept genetically encoded data (knowledge) in similar was that instinct is.

As I stated in my previous post, the main reason that we don't have the sum knowledge of our parents is that it hasn't been necessary for the survival of our ancestors. Evolution is very stingy about giving us gifts that aren't absolutely necessary to our survival. <i>In fact it must be more advantageous for people to <u>learn</u> new things in order to adapt to constantly changing conditions, as opposed to being born with the sum knowledge of our ancestors' experiences.</i> In the long term, genetically encoded information would probably become a disadvantage to human survival as our decendants would abilities to learn new things would probably atrophy.

<b>I believe that the most promising possibility of endowing people with large amounts of knowledge would be to program knowledge into the human brain after birth.</b> No genetic experiments would be required and updated information could always be added at a later time. The main requirement for this would be the complete understanding of the brain's internal language and how information is stored in the memory centers. Once this requirement is met, I believe that it would be quite easy to program knowledge into the brain.

<i>There was a movie out many years ago called <b>Brainstorm</b>. In this movie, researchers had learned how to program knowledge and the experiences of others into the brain of anyone else. The premise behind the movie was very good. </i>:cool:


<b>Artificial intelligence. Can computers become self aware? </b> I suppose this depends on one's view of what constitutes self-awareness. A race of aliens might look at humans as not having self-awareness or conciousness. From what I have seen in computer advancements since the eary 1970's, I would have to say that some day soon you may find yourself having a debate on a science forum like this with an artificial intelligence and not even know it!

I believe that a large part of this self-awareness that we perceive is based again in the emotional centers of our brains. Our emotions are a primal evolved area that gives us the drive to live and learn new things. Without these primal drives, humans would not have survived. We are curious about the world around us because the most curious humans often learned new ways to survive harsh environmental conditions of the past and bred with other humans who also possessed these types of traits. I believe that this is what gives most people the illusion of self-awareness. Perhaps artificial intelligence might also be programmed with base emotions, though certainly not all of our emotions. I would not like to see a generation of hateful, greedy, self-serving computers anytime soon! :D

kmguru,

OK, I will meet you in the philosophical sections, although in my opinion this question belongs to this forum.


Howard,

I was shocked when you called self-awareness an "illusion", but after a while I could see this as a logical consequence of a materialistic working base.

Computers and humans can say "I am", but humans can also feel it, which is self-awareness! If you call this an illusion, than this phenomena is gone like many others, which are not wanted in sciences. This is again an example how a prefixed world-view is guiding science, which seems to be quite dangerous.

In my opinion self-awareness is feeling the own soul and is therefore a subjective proof for dualism. Such approach as guidance for science would not have an influence in physics, but would be increasingly important in fields starting from bioscience via medicine to psychology and psychiatry. With such approach the self-awareness would be an important subject for research, where tools like hypnosis have to be used as well. But hypnosis and similar techniques do not belong to the basic tools in sciences yet, because they cannot be handled fully reproducible. Of course, my opinion is very rare among scientists today and therefore it will not be considered in sciences.

For the next 20 years I do not expect a self-aware computer, but I hope that some general doubts about the materialistic working base in sciences will arise.

Best regards
Hermann
(URL: http://home.t-online.de/home/hraith/english.htm)

Please assume the following - although it is very contrary to your opinion:

1. Our brain is a huge hardware computer developed by evolution just for the purpose of survival.

2. This computer has no possibilities for loading or developing new software.

3. There is a spiritual world with individual souls having intellectual capabilities, who want to take part on the material life.

4. Evolution produced a proper interface for them, because this gave a great advantage for survival.

5. Now the brain serves all sensors and actuators in the body and follows instincts, but the soul does the intellectual part with flexible thinking. E.g. during playing chess the soul is doing all strategic evaluations, because the development of a hardware chess program was certainly not needed for survival.

Assuming the above assumptions are true, would we have noticed this in genetic or in brain research? Which consequences would have this for further research?

Hermann:

I just did a posting at Witnessing Suicide - Legal Question - in the Ethics, Morality, & Justice forum of sciforums.com.



This will answer a part of your question. You are mixing Soul and Brain. We do not have the technology or the understanding under scientific basis about the Soul. Let us stick to the brain part. Now, if you want to debate about the Soul, come to Eastern Philosophy section.

Someday, somebody will develop a Grand Unified Theory on Soul and Life (I hope that is me! - it will take me 30 years). Until then it is a waste of time to mix it up because Science has not progressed to that level of understanding.

So, let us stick to Science in the science department..

Hermann,
1. Our brain is a huge hardware computer developed by evolution just for the purpose of survival. Could it not be for the purpose of procreation, for which survival would be an operational necessity?2. This computer has no possibilities for loading or developing new software. Wouldn't learning a new task, or even improving on an old task, amount to developing new 'software'?