View Full Version : Gas pistol for self defence


Avatar
01-04-08, 05:14 PM
Hi,
some time ago I talked about getting a pistol for self defence,
but I've decided that I don't really need it for now. Instead I've been thinking of buying a gas pistol or revolver, but for now I lack info on them.

Can you please tell the correct English name for gas pistol and any other info I should probably know about these weapons? Links to good articles would be great!

I've had loads of experience with real hand guns, but none whatsoever with gas pistols. I don't know their range, effect, reliability... nothing...

cosmictraveler
01-04-08, 05:37 PM
http://www.airsportdirect.com/acatalog/CO2Pistols.html

spidergoat
01-04-08, 05:38 PM
I think they are probably useless for self-defense. Try a crossbow!

cosmictraveler
01-04-08, 05:43 PM
They look like a real gun that's why many people have them, just to scare others away. ;)

RubiksMaster
01-04-08, 05:44 PM
Can you please tell the correct English name for gas pistol and any other info I should probably know about these weapons? If you mean what I think you mean, the English term is air gun or air pistol.

They hurt a lot to get shot with, but to a determined person, it might not be enough. I would suggest getting a real gun, but I don't know how strongly you feel that you don't need one for now.

Avatar
01-04-08, 05:45 PM
Humm, I didn't think those pellet guns, but those that shoot with pepper gas.

Avatar
01-04-08, 05:51 PM
Something like this one: http://www.interpolitex-mvdv.ru/expo/2819/prod_1991.htm

spidergoat
01-04-08, 06:08 PM
How about a tazer?

Avatar
01-04-08, 06:14 PM
Tazers are stupid for various reasons.
One of them, of course, is that you need to recharge them, which is useless in the wild.
Another is that too many people have been killed by tazers lately. If I wanted to risk that, I'd get a real gun in to time.
Yet another is that it's useless against more than one target.

I did ask for info on gas pistols for a reason.

Avatar
01-04-08, 06:21 PM
Found one local weapons store selling those Russian ones, will visit it tomorrow and ask about them.

http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/1031/21280so1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Buffalo Roam
01-04-08, 06:27 PM
Hi,
some time ago I talked about getting a pistol for self defence,
but I've decided that I don't really need it for now. Instead I've been thinking of buying a gas pistol or revolver, but for now I lack info on them.

Can you please tell the correct English name for gas pistol and any other info I should probably know about these weapons? Links to good articles would be great!

I've had loads of experience with real hand guns, but none whatsoever with gas pistols. I don't know their range, effect, reliability... nothing...

Are you talking about a tear gas gun?

Avatar
01-04-08, 06:31 PM
Most likely, I don't know the correct English name for it.
It shoots with pepper/tear gas, probable range of about 3 metres. The ammo looks like standart rounds, but with no bullet on the top.

spidergoat
01-04-08, 06:33 PM
That won't work in the wild, too much wind.

Avatar
01-04-08, 06:37 PM
Well, yes, that's one of the things I'd like to know from someone who has tested that on open plain or in a forest.

I know that pepper spray does work, but it's not gas, it's liquid under pressure, so wind doesn't affect it that much.

kmguru
01-04-08, 08:15 PM
Get a 9MM short nose handgun with laser sight (the one that sends a laser beam). Just turning on the laser beam will scare anyone because they know you can hit the target.

[a-5]
01-04-08, 09:44 PM
I'd get a combat knife over a gun...but then again that's probably because I've been trained extensively in knife-to-hand, knife-to-knife, and knife-to-gun combat.

Buffalo Roam
01-04-08, 10:03 PM
;1699499']I'd get a combat knife over a gun...but then again that's probably because I've been trained extensively in knife-to-hand, knife-to-knife, and knife-to-gun combat.

Do you know what happens when you bring a knife to a gun fight? you die.

kmguru
01-04-08, 10:11 PM
;1699499']I'd get a combat knife over a gun...but then again that's probably because I've been trained extensively in knife-to-hand, knife-to-knife, and knife-to-gun combat.


"Knife to gun" combat? Perhaps you would win if the gun guy watches too many movies.

If a badguy is holding my kid with a knife or gun and says to drop the gun that I am holding, before he finishes the sentence, he will be dead with a bullet between his eyes. At 10 feet I am at bulls eye without laser sight.

Buffalo Roam
01-04-08, 10:25 PM
Well, yes, that's one of the things I'd like to know from someone who has tested that on open plain or in a forest.

I know that pepper spray does work, but it's not gas, it's liquid under pressure, so wind doesn't affect it that much.

Your better off with a can system, they sell them just about everywhere, it is a pressurized aerosol can, it is safer because it won't be mistaken for a gun, if you have a gas gun shaped like a pistol it will get you shot because it will be taken for a real gun, get pepper spray in a aerosol can, but no matter what wind will seriously affect the range and dispersal of any gas or liquid projector.

But remember that individuals under the influence of some drugs when sprayed with pepper spray or tear gas, will not be affected, in some cases it acts as a stimulant, and really sets them off, people under the influence of PCP become totally enraged when hit with pepper spray, and develop massive rage strength, there are some more drugs that when taken have the same reaction on the user if hit with Pepper Spray or Tear Gas.

Buffalo Roam
01-04-08, 10:32 PM
"Knife to gun" combat? Perhaps you would win if the gun guy watches too many movies.

If a badguy is holding my kid with a knife or gun and says to drop the gun that I am holding, before he finishes the sentence, he will be dead with a bullet between his eyes. At 10 feet I am at bulls eye without laser sight.


No the shot you want is right on the point of the nose, or from the side right through the ear canal, if you shoot them between the eyes there is still a involuntary reaction, and the hostage could get hurt, or killed, but sever the cerebral cortex and its light out not even a twitch, look at a cross section of the human skull, that is what you need to destroy to make a dead stop no involuntary reaction shot.

kmguru
01-04-08, 10:45 PM
No the shot you want is right on the point of the nose, or from the side right through the ear canal,


Nice to know. Thank you. I have some dummy paper mache heads. Time to practice with a head on a stick. :thumbsup::thankyou:

Carcano
01-04-08, 11:35 PM
Arent there any air pistols on the market that shoot large plastic bullets???

That would be more effective stopping an attacker than tiny BBs.

kmguru
01-04-08, 11:41 PM
No, it creates big bruises but to a big guy, he can kill you with the adrenalin running being mad

Asguard
01-04-08, 11:58 PM
First off the police standard police says a gun is usless if its not already employed buy the time the person is with in 6 feet. Second why in gods name would you WANT a gun, more people get killed by there OWN guns than the assult rates. thirdly if you really want something to defend yourself learn self defence because its the only weapon that cant be turned against you

kmguru
01-05-08, 12:11 AM
more people get killed by there OWN guns than the assult rates

That says assult rates are very low, and not thousands gun owners die. Imagine the military and police carrying guns and dropping like flies....:D

Our family has guns for the last 4 generations. Not an accident. We used to hunt, but that stopped with me. I literally took the words "Thou shalt not kill"

It depends on the circumstances....

Asguard
01-05-08, 12:28 AM
i wasnt talking about miltiary or police who only carry there guns at work (at least thats how it is in Australia). Even so one of our solders was killed when his gun went off while he was cleaning it (or possably skylarking) in iraq.

Buffalo Roam
01-05-08, 12:55 AM
i wasnt talking about miltiary or police who only carry there guns at work (at least thats how it is in Australia). Even so one of our solders was killed when his gun went off while he was cleaning it (or possably skylarking) in iraq.

Sorry Asguard, but I have read thousands of reports of people using guns to protect themselves, and to use any self defence techniques requires you to put your self in contact with the assailant, and that is something to be avoided at all cost, I have work in Prisons, and as a Police Officer, and have had the displeasure of having to take down drug crazed inmates, on more than one occasion, it took as many a 10 guards to subdue one inmate, and several of them even with the body armor where put in the hospital, and on the street the only way one was stopped was they had to kill him, the tasers didn't even slow him down, six rounds and the last one was to the brain, that was the only way they stopped him, he had already killed his girlfriend and their son, I had to investigate that one, the guy was high on a synthetic drug that wasn't even known.

When a soldier kills himself while cleaning his gun that is usually a polite way of saying he commitd suicide.

Asguard
01-05-08, 01:07 AM
I feel for you

I should give you some background on myself, I am currently studying a degree in paramedics and quite a few of our classes are taken by police offices. I have a very high level of respect for the police. The cop that took our class on dealing with vilent patients told us that guns are compleatly ussless if they are not deployed before the offender is with in 6 feet although some of there other equiptment like battons are usefull. Also he told us that it takes 6 people to restrain one patient physically with a lower chance of them being killed. Once you do however the drug medaz is quite usefull as a chemical restraint

Crunchy Cat
01-05-08, 06:30 AM
Avatar,

For home defense I recommend the 9mm Type F model:

http://www.berettausa.com/product/spotlight/spotlight_pistol_px4.cfm

And some Cor Bon high velocity ammunition. For practicing using the gun I would recommend using American Eagle ammunition (good and cheap).

Neildo
01-05-08, 07:10 AM
Avatar wants an incapacitating gun so that when they're temporarily dazed, he can beat the living shit out of them with his martial arts.

- N

P.S. I want a video of that if it ever happens. ;)

Avatar
01-05-08, 07:24 AM
Neildo is partially right, with the human opponent it would be enough for me if he was blind for a while. With one movement I can break a leg or rip air canals out, but that's not the main point. The point is that I want to minimize the time of contact as well as minimize the risk of that contact. Gas pistol seemed to me to kinda maybe serve that purpose.
I don't want to get into trouble with a real gun. On the other hand I could always aim for the legs in the case of a human.

As for misusing handguns, I've spent a large part of my childhood with the military, and lots of that time I was practicing with various pistols, revolvers, rifles, machine guns and even a few heavy machine guns, so I know my way around.

But as I said, I'd like to have a non lethal weapon.

p.s. I don't need a gun for home defence, I need a tool for hiking against rabid farmers and their stray pets.

Avatar
01-05-08, 07:28 AM
i wasnt talking about miltiary or police who only carry there guns at work (at least thats how it is in Australia). Even so one of our solders was killed when his gun went off while he was cleaning it (or possably skylarking) in iraq.

I agree with Buffalo, that's the phrase that's usually used if someone has commited suicide or there was unauthorised shooting [crime] going on.


First off the police standard police says a gun is usless if its not already employed buy the time the person is with in 6 feet.
It depends on the situation. It very depends on the situation. Basically it's a generalization.

Avatar
01-05-08, 07:29 AM
Arent there any air pistols on the market that shoot large plastic bullets???

That would be more effective stopping an attacker than tiny BBs.

Not pellets, but tear gas.

Neildo
01-05-08, 07:48 AM
http://www.pepperammo.com/

- N

phlogistician
01-05-08, 07:52 AM
;1699499']I'd get a combat knife over a gun...but then again that's probably because I've been trained extensively in knife-to-hand, knife-to-knife, and knife-to-gun combat.

Of course you have, you sad fantasist.

Avatar
01-05-08, 07:55 AM
Thanks, but I need something I can buy locally, and not import from SA.
You think that Russian model is bad?

http://www.interpolitex-mvdv.ru/expo/2819/prod_1991.htm

http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/1031/21280so1.jpg

Avatar
01-05-08, 07:57 AM
Of course you have, you sad fantasist.

I wonder under who he has trained. Every defence instructor and martial arts trainer that I know always warns that you should employ knife against gun or hand against gun only in the most extreme situations where there is absolutely no other chance and there is nothing to lose.

Avatar
01-05-08, 08:03 AM
Humm, I read that Russian model shoots gas rounds only in manual recharge mode...

Any way, the model is not the issue, I can go to a weapons store and find which I like most,
the question is, if such a gas pistol would be effective mostly against animals.

Some here say that it wouldn't. I begin to think so too and I probably should stick with my pepper spray canister.

Any other comments?

Neildo
01-05-08, 08:03 AM
You think that Russian model is bad?

Oh no, well, I don't know much about it. Just trying to give you more options to choose from. If it works for you, and since you seem to want to buy locally, give it a shot.

- N

Neildo
01-05-08, 08:10 AM
Any way, the model is not the issue, I can go to a weapons store and find which I like most,
the question is, if such a gas pistol would be effective mostly against animals.

Some here say that it wouldn't. I begin to think so too and I probably should stick with my pepper spray canister.

A pepper gun vs pepper spray is going to basically have the same effects, only that the gun gives you the option of long-range rather than being limited to up close and personal. There's some people and animals that can shake off the effects and most that get pretty messed up by it. It all depends on what type of person you encounter with that whole unknown luck factor.

Me personally, when I'm under the effects of pepperspray or mace, I don't stand there all dazed and while it does burn, I can manage to still keep moving although I sneeze like a son-of-a, and that slows me down big time where I can't be much of a threat unless I'm gonna drown you in snot. Most people drop to their knees sobbing like a baby clutching their eyes. I think if you really encountered a dangerous animal, it'd probably be like me where it sneezes like crazy and that should be enough for either you to flee, or it leaves.

I think the only comments against the gun I read here were that it may be mistaken for a real gun. If that's no issue, then I'd say give that gun a try.

- N

Neildo
01-05-08, 08:14 AM
http://www.fws.gov/mountain-prairie/species/mammals/grizzly/bear%20spray.pdf

Living with Grizzlies Fact Sheet No. 8
U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service
Mountain-Prairie Region, P.O. Box 25486
Lakewood, Colorado 80225
phone 303/236-7905, fax 303/236-3815
website: www.r6.fws.gov
Bear Spray vs. Bullets
Which offers better protection?
At first glance, this question may seem like a no-brainer. After all, aren’t guns made to kill, while pepper
spray (so-called “bear spray,” when it comes in big cans) does not? Unlike an attack by a human assailant,
who may be able to use your own weapon against you, that safety/survival argument for using pepper spray
doesn’t apply to a human-bear encounter... or does it?
When it comes to self defense against grizzly bears, the answer is not as obvious as it may seem. In fact,
experienced hunters are surprised to find that despite the use of firearms against a charging bear, they were
attacked and badly hurt. Evidence of human-bear encounters even suggests that shooting a bear can escalate
the seriousness of an attack, while encounters where firearms are not used are less likely to result in injury
or death of the human or the bear. While firearms can kill a bear, can a bullet kill quickly enough -- and can
the shooter be accurate enough -- to prevent a dangerous, even fatal, attack?
The question is not one of marksmanship or clear thinking in the face of a growling bear, for even a skilled
marksman with steady nerves may have a slim chance of deterring a bear attack with a gun. Law
enforcement agents for the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service have experience that supports this reality --
based on their investigations of human-bear encounters since 1992, persons encountering grizzlies and
defending themselves with firearms suffer injury about 50% of the time. During the same period, persons
defending themselves with pepper spray escaped injury most of the time, and those that were injured
experienced shorter duration attacks and less severe injuries. Canadian bear biologist Dr. Stephen Herrero
reached similar conclusions based on his own research -- a person’s chance of incurring serious injury from
a charging grizzly doubles when bullets are fired versus when bear spray is used.
Awareness of bear behavior is the key to mitigating potential danger. Detecting signs of a bear and avoiding
interaction, or understanding defensive bear behaviors, like bluff charges, are the best ways of escaping
injury. The Service supports the pepper spray policy of the Interagency Grizzly Bear Committee, which
states that bear spray is not a substitute for following proper bear avoidance safety techniques, and that bear
spray should be used as a deterrent only in an aggressive or attacking confrontation with a bear.
Like seatbelts, bear spray saves lives. But just as seatbelts don’t make driving off a bridge safe, bear spray
is not a shield against deliberately seeking out or attracting a grizzly bear. No deterrent is 100% effective,
but compared to all others, including firearms, proper use of bear spray has proven to be the best method for
fending off threatening and attacking bears, and for preventing injury to the person and animal involved.
Because the grizzly bear is federally protected in the Lower 48 States as a threatened species, it is a violation of the
Endangered Species Act (ESA) to shoot one, except in self defense and defense of others during an imminent
attack. Penalties under the ESA include up to 6 months in prison and a $100,000 fine. Additional penalties may
also apply to violations of state law. For more information about bear spray and its effectiveness, see:
http://www.fs.fed.us/r1/wildlife/igbc

- N

Avatar
01-05-08, 08:18 AM
Well, I'd prefer to test the gun before buying. ;)
Besides the shop owner can't then sell me shit, because he knows that I can come back and demand the money back.

Sneezing and having a bad sense of direction is good as well. I hike in heavy army boots with titanium foot inlet, besides being totally waterproof and protecting against sharp objects (our forests are laden with echoes of war) they are quite heavy and excellent for "reinforced" kicking.

Avatar
01-05-08, 08:22 AM
Thanks for that article, Neildo!!!
While we have only a few brown bears in our forests, this applies to stray dogs, wild boars and wolves in winter too.
Thanks!

Neildo
01-05-08, 08:29 AM
Oh yeah, aside from the mechanism you're going to carry, I'd say the most important part is the quality of the mixture you're using, whether the spray canister or the ammo. Is there any information as to the quality of the pellets that gun you're interested in fires?

- N

Avatar
01-05-08, 08:33 AM
I don't have any info on that yet, but I'll be sure to ask the shopkeeper.
One my work collegue showed some of his pepper ammo and there was written - Only against animals.
So I guess it meant that it shouldn't be used against humans, so maybe it's quite powerful.
Or maybe in the producer's country it's illegal to use pepper ammo against human-animals.

John99
01-05-08, 08:46 AM
Just get a big knife and hope no farmers come after you. Especially if their from Georgia or someplace like that.:wave:

Neildo
01-05-08, 08:52 AM
One my work collegue showed some of his pepper ammo and there was written - Only against animals.
So I guess it meant that it shouldn't be used against humans, so maybe it's quite powerful.
Or maybe in the producer's country it's illegal to use pepper ammo against human-animals.

Yeah, if it mentions animals, it usually has a higher concentration and Scoville rating, but the main reason is due to politics. If something is labeled as an animal repellent and whatnot, it's classified as a pesticide, which would be illegal to use against humans even though it's practically made the same, just classified differently.

It's the same way with natural drugs and herbs. Even though we know certain herbs are helpful, many types of vitamins, aspirins, etc will say "this hasn't been tested by the FDA" etc etc because under it's natural form, it can't be classified as a drug and what they're selling to you is basically a drug. I dunno, I can't remember the exact details of it all, but it's basically some political thing like that.

So yeah, if the pepper is for animals, it's classified as a pesticide and can't be used against humans even though there's no real difference, it's just political marketing label wording. Saying "for use against animals" makes it sound better so it may sell better, but that's just a label kinda like when Nvidia had their whole ad campaign that said "Best Played on Nvidia" during a game even though an ATI card was faster on it, etc, but then because of that label, it's classified differently. And if it doesn't mention animals, it's classified as a food grade substance by the FDA so it's legal against humans, but due to it being a food grade substance, it doesn't have many regulation so you'll see lots of different varieties claiming such-and-such even though it may be weaker although claiming to be better for marketing purposes.

Most animal sprays may have a higher concentration, but you can get the same quality that's legal against humans. Just don't think that because it says to be used against animals that it's somehow better. What you want to look at is the SHU rating to see how hot it is. Don't even bother looking at the silly OC rating because you can have a 2% rated spray be way hotter than a 30% spray due to the peppers and whatnot used making the scoville rating way higher. How in the heck a weak spray can be rated high, I have no idea, but it comes down to silly marketing again. So look at the peppers in the pellets and make sure the scoville rating is high, at least 4-5 million+.

- N

Avatar
01-05-08, 08:54 AM
I have three, but they are good only for wood craft - preparing fire wood, sharpening staffs, making totem poles, giving light signals and the like. Real life is not jungle book, and I'd take a staff before a knife any time.

That, and I already said that I'm interested in pepper based repellants. The question now is - is spray enough or do I need a pepper gas pistol too.

I doubt there would be any Georgian farmers in Latvian forests and fields.

Avatar
01-05-08, 08:56 AM
Most animal sprays may have a higher concentration, but you can get the same quality that's legal against humans. Just don't think that because it says to be used against animals that it's somehow better. What you want to look at is the SHU rating to see how hot it is. Don't even bother looking at the silly OC rating because you can have a 2% rated spray be way hotter than a 30% spray due to the peppers and whatnot used making the scoville rating way higher. How in the heck a weak spray can be rated high, I have no idea, but it comes down to silly marketing again. So look at the peppers in the pellets and make sure the scoville rating is high, at least 4-5 million+.
Thanks!! You've been of great help. :)

Neildo
01-05-08, 08:59 AM
Here's some reading for ya that explains it better than I did:




Hot or Not? The Myths About Pepper Spray
by M. David West, NLETA Charter Member

NLETA Online Magazine
February 9, 2003

Ever since 1974, when the first Oleoresin Capsicum (OC) product specifically developed for law enforcement began to get marketed and sold out of a garage in a south Florida home, Aerosol weapons have become increasingly popular. Unfortunately, outside of a short course taught at the basic academy, little exists for most agencies in the way of advanced OC training, and a multitude of myths about what OC is, how it works, and what it's capabilities and limitations are have risen over the last 3 decades. Like all defense tools, the proper use of OC requires training. This article represents no replacement for that formal training, but is written only in hopes of dispelling some of the most common myths and misconceptions regarding OC and its proper use.

Myth #1 - Percent equals pain!
It is commonly believed that the higher the percentage of OC in an aerosol unit, the more effective it will be. This is simply untrue. In simplest terms, the percentage of actual active ingredient in a unit relates much more to the amount of time it will take an exposed subject to decontaminate than it does to the amount of "heat" felt. The question to ask is 10%, 15%, or 20% of WHAT? Is the base pepper a jalapeno, cayenne, or a habanero? How refined was the pepper before it was used in the formula? These things obviously should make a difference.

The true measure of heat is determined by the SHU, or the Scoville Heat Units found in the canister. SHU is a culinary scale that was developed to measure the heat in peppers, and helps us to determine the effectiveness of various OC sprays. A green bell pepper is the base of the scale and holds a rating of 0 SHU. As a matter of reference, a jalapeno pepper typically rates between 3,000 and 5,000 SHU. Fox Labs 5.3 on the other hand is rated at 5,300,000 SHU. High SHU ratings are obtained through the hybriding of certain pod peppers and then through a detailed refining process. Placing a large amount of poorly refined, garden-variety peppers in an aerosol unit does not make it hot. When considering the purchase of a canister of OC always check the advertised SHU. If the manufacturer boldly advertises percentages, but refuses to place the SHU rating on the can, chances are there is a reason for this.

Myth #2 - Pepper Spray doesn't work on persons of certain ethnic backgrounds.
This is probably the single largest myth in the history of pepper spray. As a result of having "hot" diets, including numerous peppers, it is commonly believed that people of Hispanic origin may not be as readily affected by OC. The reality is that no pepper, no matter how often it is ingested is as hot as most law enforcement grade OC. Pepper sprays effect subjects both physiologically and psychologically. While it is possible for a goal directed person, or someone under the influence of drugs or alcohol to overcome the actual pain associated with OC and continue to fight, it is impossible for them to overcome the physiological effects on their bodies. OC, when inhaled, inflames the mucus membranes of the nose and throat, resulting in coughing and gagging, thereby making breathing difficult. OC will cause eyes to twitch spasmodically and close, causing temporary blindness and loss of balance. The capillaries in the eyes will dilate when exposed to OC, and a burning sensation will be felt on any exposed skin. Goal directed subjects may overcome the pain, but are still placed at a disadvantage by being exposed to OC by its ability to take away their vision and their respiration pattern. OC will effect everyone differently based on their individual pain thresholds and raw determination, but has no way of knowing a persons birthplace, diet, or cultural background.

Myth #3 - More is Better!
This is yet another falsehood. Most OC manufacturers recommend spraying an offender with ½ - 1 second, short "bursts." If more OC is needed, it is recommended that more short bursts are used. If multiple bursts do not place the offender into a non-assaultive position, it is time to try something else. Spraying an offender with bursts longer than 1 second in length can actually be counterproductive. OC aerosol weapons generally contain three basic substances in the container. An active ingredient of refined pod pepper is used to incapacitate the offender. A solvent is utilized to emulsify the active ingredient and place it in a liquid state. Lastly, a propellant is added to the canister that allows the solvent/active ingredient mixture to be expelled from the canister onto an offender. In order for the pepper spray to be most effective, it is essential that the propellant and solvents used in the formulation of the pepper spray be able to fall out of or evaporate from the mixture rapidly, so that the offender is only exposed to pure active ingredient, leaving nothing to get in between the offenders skin and the "heat" of the product. By spraying a subject with a long, continuous burst, one can actually experience a washing effect where the solvent and propellant, still in the mixture, wash the active ingredient from the intended target area (eyes, nose, and mouth) and onto a less reactive area of the face.

Myth #4 - All OC is created Equal.
Because OC is generally an unregulated product, there are a multitude of "bathtub blends" available at every discount retailer and convenience store in America, and it is generally believed that all pepper sprays are about the same in terms of quality and reliability. As stated before, it is important for the defense-oriented consumer to become knowledgeable about OC, and check the SHU and percentages of active ingredients in particular prior to any purchase. This however is not enough. As a rule of thumb I tell students and student instructors to never purchase an OC product anywhere they can purchase beer or blue jeans. Rely on established law enforcement supply shops and reputable gun shops to help you with your purchase. Only purchase products made by established, well known manufacturers, and check out the OSHA materials safety data sheet for specific ingredients whenever possible. If you wouldn't trust your personal safety or the safety of your loved ones with a bargain basement, used, unchecked firearm, why would you trust an unproven, bargain basement OC? The cost difference in discount brand pepper sprays and law enforcement grade aerosol weapons is incidental, and well worth the peace of mind that the extra dollar may cost you.

Conclusion
Pepper Spray is an effective tool that should be carried by all law enforcement officers. Firearms are not the answer to every defense situation, and it is essential that we have the proper tools available to us as the situation dictates; else we sacrifice officer and suspect safety. However, with any defense tool comes the responsibility to train and become proficient with it. If you currently carry pepper spray or intend to in the future, seek training and find out everything you need to know about it to reduce your personal liability and to maximize its effectiveness.

- N

John99
01-05-08, 09:03 AM
I would not mess with sprays on a big animal, especially outdoors. With a gun it will make you feel safe but most likely in the woods if someone wanted to kill you they would stalk you for awhile and you would never get a chance to even take it out.

Not to mention your serial killers. Have you ever seen the movie deliverance?

http://www.filmreference.com/images/sjff_01_img0130.jpg

Neildo
01-05-08, 09:13 AM
The question now is - is spray enough or do I need a pepper gas pistol too.

It all depends on the range in which you want to engage the animal. If you want maximum range, use the pepper gun. Hopefully you could even just fire near it to scare it away from the sound and mist and maybe the fumes tickling it's noise making it go away rather than having a full-on engagement. If you don't mind being under 15 feet in range at a higher risk, you can use the spray. Or you can play it safe and carry both.

I'm not a hunter so I don't really know much about wild animal confrontations and how they react, but I know their sense of smell is much greater than ours so the peppers outta be more effective against em. I know they're curious so hopefully just a quick shot can spook em off without actually hitting em and pissing em off, heh.

- N

Neildo
01-05-08, 09:16 AM
http://www.filmreference.com/images/sjff_01_img0130.jpg

Squeal like a pig, boy! :D

- N

John99
01-05-08, 09:19 AM
yeah, that was the only part i didnt really care for. classic.

Avatar
01-05-08, 09:23 AM
Well, I'm not a hunter, but I spend lots of time in the woods.
An animal mainly can attack you on three occasions, provided that you got noticed.

1. Rabid animal. Spooky stuff. Avoid physical contact at all costs. Rare, but extremely dangerous.
2. He's already pissed off, because you're in its territory. Double that if it has cubs. Tripple if those are wild boar cubs. This is the most usual contact - an animal protecting its territory.
3. Really, really hungry animals. A rarity, because there's usually lots of game in our forests, but it happens in cold winters with wolf packs. Raided a few farms by a forest a few years ago.

I think I'll buy a pepper gun in order to increase my range and double my ranged defence capability. I usually carry a staff too. I'm trained with japanese bo and jo staffs, but I usually make one from a forest branch too. For a calming effect I even sometimes sharpen one end.

kmguru
01-05-08, 09:39 AM
When a soldier kills himself while cleaning his gun that is usually a polite way of saying he commitd suicide.

That is the real news. What I do not understand is, we spend hundreds of billions in war (you do what you must), but the soldier's well being is not addressesd properly - making sure his family is OK etc. There should be a compete familiy support unit that are professional and have money for that support. Whatever ragtag group exists, they need to beef it up.

Donnal
01-05-08, 10:46 AM
wish we had protection in australia
we got the worst criminals here and they all kiddy thingos
they get kicked outta other countires and flee to you know where
and they dont pass certain history tests to do with hitler and get embarrassed and run here so we got dummies as well as dirt scum
and no gun laws to protect us
dam its hard when you cantfight against dirty people with high jobs

Donnal
01-05-08, 10:48 AM
australia was for many years been used for a prison
and still is

Donnal
01-05-08, 10:49 AM
and people go .....why is this happening like duh

Donnal
01-05-08, 10:50 AM
nice bow

kmguru
01-05-08, 12:34 PM
Can you buy guns in Australia if you do not have criminal bacground? In USA, as long as you are not a criminal, you can get 10 guns easily. It is not the gun that you need, you will also need a lot of bullets to practice. Our police friend told us, we can get a 5000 round pack cheap. But then except practice a few times a year...it is a waste. Those reloads sometimes come out duds.

[a-5]
01-05-08, 12:56 PM
No the shot you want is right on the point of the nose, or from the side right through the ear canal, if you shoot them between the eyes there is still a involuntary reaction, and the hostage could get hurt, or killed, but sever the cerebral cortex and its light out not even a twitch, look at a cross section of the human skull, that is what you need to destroy to make a dead stop no involuntary reaction shot.

No, the point is right under the nose. I forget what it's called, but it's a critical pressure point. You know, right above your upper lip, the little indentation...yeah, that thing.

kmguru
01-05-08, 01:03 PM
Make up your mind...which point is it so I can practice....:)

[a-5]
01-05-08, 01:09 PM
The point below the nose is the point snipers attempt to shoot, typically in hostage situations. Shoot for that, but upper chest is madddd effective as well.

Crunchy Cat
01-05-08, 02:48 PM
Neildo is partially right, with the human opponent it would be enough for me if he was blind for a while. With one movement I can break a leg or rip air canals out, but that's not the main point. The point is that I want to minimize the time of contact as well as minimize the risk of that contact. Gas pistol seemed to me to kinda maybe serve that purpose.
I don't want to get into trouble with a real gun. On the other hand I could always aim for the legs in the case of a human.

As for misusing handguns, I've spent a large part of my childhood with the military, and lots of that time I was practicing with various pistols, revolvers, rifles, machine guns and even a few heavy machine guns, so I know my way around.

But as I said, I'd like to have a non lethal weapon.

p.s. I don't need a gun for home defence, I need a tool for hiking against rabid farmers and their stray pets.


Legs, arms, soulders, hands, feet, arms... there's some good places to hit people with a real gun that wont kill them but will incapacitate them. Of course if you're that worried about protecting the life of an assailant, you can always use a rubber bullet mechanism.

Avatar
01-05-08, 02:52 PM
Not really worried about assailant, but our laws are very strict on the cases when you can apply a gun.

Asguard
01-05-08, 04:14 PM
can i please point out that the case in question was the subject of a corinors inquest where suicide was ruled out. You need a licence to get a gun here and to get a licence you need to prove a need. Ie your a compition shooter or your a farmer ect.

Avatar
01-05-08, 04:18 PM
We don't need a licence for a gas pistol, and getting a licence for a real pistol wouldn't pose much difficulty for me too, but yes, we too have to prove that we have a real need for the firearm, as well as pass medical, psychiatric, first aid and gun use tests. A licence for home defence is easier to get.

Crunchy Cat
01-05-08, 09:40 PM
Not really worried about assailant, but our laws are very strict on the cases when you can apply a gun.

What kind of laws are you up against?

Echo3Romeo
01-05-08, 11:45 PM
;1700130']No, the point is right under the nose. I forget what it's called, but it's a critical pressure point. You know, right above your upper lip, the little indentation...yeah, that thing.
Feltrim? Two major cranial nerves intersect there, and it is taught as a preferred contact point for high strikes in martial arts.

edit: more like Philtrum: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philtrum

Buffalo Roam
01-06-08, 01:54 AM
Make up your mind...which point is it so I can practice....:)

The best point of aim is the point of the nose, like I say look up a diagram of the human skull and brain, it give you a good reference point to shoot at, and the target area of the cerebral cortex is large enough that the aiming point of the tip of the nose works perfectly, but you have to study the lay out of the skull so depending on the angle of the shot you know were the cortex is in retaliation to the path of the bullet.

I have done this for my hunting, I study the lay out of the internal organs of the animals that I hunt and know were to place the bullet at different shooting angles to hit the heart, brain, spine, lungs, from any angle.

dinokg
01-06-08, 02:38 AM
Well if its just to scare animals off this might work:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dazzler_(weapon)

Don't know where you would get one though lol.

phlogistician
01-06-08, 09:09 AM
;1700134']The point below the nose is the point snipers attempt to shoot, typically in hostage situations. Shoot for that, but upper chest is madddd effective as well.

Oh yeah, you sure sound like an expert.

phlogistician
01-06-08, 09:10 AM
;1700130']No, the point is right under the nose. I forget what it's called, but it's a critical pressure point. You know, right above your upper lip, the little indentation...yeah, that thing.


You got that info from Rollerball.

phlogistician
01-06-08, 09:18 AM
Thanks, but I need something I can buy locally, and not import from SA.
You think that Russian model is bad?

http://www.interpolitex-mvdv.ru/expo/2819/prod_1991.htm



That's cute, they only import the 4.5mm (.177 cal) Makarov conversion into the UK, and it shoots lead BB's. An 8mm version would be a nice toy, and most likely legal, as long as it's under 6 ft.lbs (8 joules)

It's made out of real Makarov bits, btw, the slide etc are from the same stock, just machined so reactivation isn't worthwhile, plus the magazine holds the BB's and the CO2 bulb, and of course the barrel construction is completely different. When the trigger is pulled, the whole barrell moves forward, and loads a BB through a hole, this stretches a spring round the outside of the barrel, then the trigger releases, and the barrell springs back, slamming into a valve, releasing CO2 and ejecting the BB. It's really simple, but works really well.

Avatar
01-06-08, 10:12 AM
Well, Makarov is a real crap as far as pistols go, very inaccurate and jumpy, nobody in the army or police likes it.
But as this is not the real Makarov, I have the hope of the gas variant being better.
But if you realy must manually load every tear gas round, then it's not worth it.

kmguru
01-06-08, 11:17 AM
My Makarov shoots OK but needs special 9MM. So we are going to dump it in favor of a Beretta. I also like my Glock but not sure if the plastic will hold up say 25 years....it may crumble to pieces. My S&W is a solid workhorse...

Echo3Romeo
01-06-08, 01:33 PM
Oh yeah, you sure sound like an expert.
d00d, I got 34 frags in two minutes playing Halo 3 last night. I was aiming for the philtrum!

[a-5]
01-06-08, 01:45 PM
Feltrim? Two major cranial nerves intersect there, and it is taught as a preferred contact point for high strikes in martial arts.

edit: more like Philtrum: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philtrum

Yeah, I'm a black belt in Karate, Tae Kwon Do, Ninpo, and Hapkido. Knuckle strikes are lethal in that area.


Oh yeah, you sure sound like an expert.

...Martial arts practitioner/enthusiast.


You got that info from Rollerball.

What is Rollerball?


d00d, I got 34 frags in two minutes playing Halo 3 last night. I was aiming for the philtrum!

Funny. I happen to be a CSS player, too.

phlogistician
01-09-08, 07:05 AM
;1701419']Yeah, I'm a black belt in Karate, Tae Kwon Do, Ninpo, and Hapkido.

Four blacks belts by 17?

Must be from some McDojo like East/West.

Or your imagination.

JA S81
01-11-08, 06:49 PM
or you could just carry around a .50 cal desert eagle.

[a-5]
01-11-08, 07:23 PM
Four blacks belts by 17?

Must be from some McDojo like East/West.

Or your imagination.

Or multiple styles at the same time?

Neildo
01-11-08, 09:25 PM
Or multiple styles at the same time?

You gotta be hella rich for that considering any trainer worth their beans cost at least $150-200 a month just for an hour a day, not counting any special one-on-one training which will cost at least that much in a short, single day.

Match of the Century! [a-5] vs Avatar!

:D

- N

[a-5]
01-11-08, 09:28 PM
You gotta be hella rich for that considering any trainer worth their beans cost at least $150-200 a month just for an hour a day, not counting any special one-on-one training which will cost at least that much in a short, single day.

- N

Not to sound snobby or anything, but I'm Indian. My dad's a doctor with a six figure salary and my mom has a PhD in Buisness Administration and works for GE. We're pretty well off.

Neildo
01-11-08, 11:17 PM
Snob. j/k. =p

I'd still like to see a match between ya two, though. I'll create the betting pool.

- N

[a-5]
01-12-08, 12:19 AM
I'd rock his face off :p



Unless he's 6'7, 263lb. of muscle, and has impeccable technique...then I'd just run away.

phlogistician
01-12-08, 06:49 AM
;1708758']I'm Indian.


Then you should have been true to your roots and learned Kalarippayattu.

Archie
01-12-08, 11:48 AM
Has the HAZMAT team been notified? I sense a toxic testosterone leak here.

Aside from that, I'd like to address several comments or issues raised here.

1. Oleoresin capsicum (pepper) spray is largely effective against both human and animal attackers. No, it doesn't work every time, but it has a very high effectiveness rate. The fact is, there are very few guarantees in life.

However, I am aware of no gas 'bullets' that are effective; other than those fired from the larger projectors 30 mm cartridges and greater. The pistol type gas guns simply don't do much at all.

2. Weapons firearms can be taken away and used against the defender. Theoretically true, but in practice does not happen. (Okay, it happens in the movies and television. No one confuses that with reality, do they?) Interestingly, cops are killed with their own guns more than with guns brought by the attacker. However, no police agency has disarmed their officers to combat this problem.

Nor is this because police have such wonderful or magical training they are superior to the common citizen. I've been in law enforcement for about 26 years now and it just isn't so.

This whole argument essentially a bare faced lie is simply another gun control argument to disarm otherwise lawful citizens.

3. Buffalo and A-5 (I think) discussed the nose or just under as a target point.

Buffalo is talking about shooting and disrupting the brainstem. Buffalo is correctly talking about using the tip of the nose as an aiming point when firing at an adversary from the direct front. As he mentions, from the side or rear, the aiming point changes.

A-5 is talking about a pressure or strike point on the face. The area just below the nose is very sensitive to pressure, but does not in the least affect the brainstem.

Both are correct in what they say, but they are discussing two different goals and two different techniques.

4. "Martial Arts" training. Anyone of reasonable health and physical build can learn martial arts like Karate, Judo or any of the myriad of others. (I'm a donut fu guy, myself.) It takes about two to three years to get to the level of being reasonable able to defend oneself in the real world.

Twenty to thirty HOURS of proper training will get the average person shooting a handgun at an acceptable level.

5. The 'knife versus gun' fight discussion. Several years ago, a study showed an armed officer could not timely respond to a knife attack within 21 feet. The basis of the study was the officer was holstered, the knife wielding attacker had his knife out and initiated the attack. A number of people have incorrectly interpreted this to say a knife is always the winner in any encounter within 21 feet. Such is obviously incorrect; one has only to reverse the conditions to see a defender with a sheathed knife is not going to prevail against a firearms equipped attacker within 21 feet. (This presumes both assailants are reasonable proficient with their weapons. Incompetence changes the scenario radically.)

6. Desert Eagles are specialty weapons for long range target shooters (silhouette shooting), hunters and game playing, pimply faced game posers who cannot differentiate video games and reality.

Avatar
01-12-08, 12:10 PM
Thanks, Archie!
Then I'll stick to my pepper spray and bo staff and forget about gas pistol.

Watched a few youtube videos with gas pistols in action and they really seem mostly for the show, and don't help much at all.

John99
01-12-08, 12:40 PM
Told you. Learn to be fast with a blade.

Avatar
01-12-08, 12:47 PM
I hate combat blades. Too serious and cold for me. I see nothing romantic in katanas, for example, they're horrible weapons.
I'm quite good with a staff.

Harnu
01-12-08, 06:35 PM
or you could just carry around a .50 cal desert eagle.

Why just one? Carry two, double it up for a full inch of ass kicking :D

Avatar
01-12-08, 06:44 PM
Humm, even if we disregard that this thread is about tear-gas pistols, it is still about self defence and not "ass kicking".

Self defence means that you apply the minimum use of force in order to stop the attack, which means that you should kill or seriously injure the attacker only in the most extreme of situations.

Buffalo Roam
01-12-08, 10:44 PM
Avatar, he is making fun of JA S81, for being a poser, two Desert Eagles would weigh in at, 4kg, 2 kg a piece, 8.8 pds. they are 14 in (356 mm) long, and 10 in (254 mm) high, and the grip on them is like trying to wrap you hand around a 2 x 4, 50 mm x 100 mm piece of lumber, to carry those concealed you would need to be King Cong.

[a-5]
01-12-08, 11:49 PM
Then you should have been true to your roots and learned Kalarippayattu.

Yuck :/

Carcano
01-14-08, 12:26 AM
Then you should have been true to your roots and learned Kalarippayattu.
India has come up with some of the most ingenious hand weapons...the katar and the kukri.

Harnu
01-14-08, 12:37 AM
Humm, even if we disregard that this thread is about tear-gas pistols, it is still about self defence and not "ass kicking".

Self defence means that you apply the minimum use of force in order to stop the attack, which means that you should kill or seriously injure the attacker only in the most extreme of situations.

I can't speak for all Americans, but where I come from self defense means you can defend yourself to such a degree in most situations that would warrant action. If someone comes and attacks me, wether it's a mugging or "jumping" me, game on.

[a-5]
01-14-08, 12:09 PM
Told you. Learn to be fast with a blade.

Amen.


I hate combat blades. Too serious and cold for me. I see nothing romantic in katanas, for example, they're horrible weapons.
I'm quite good with a staff.

I agree. Bo staffs allow for great disarming techniques.


India has come up with some of the most ingenious hand weapons...the katar and the kukri.

Kamas ftw.