It would seem to have the potential to do so. To do what? To commit mass suicide on March 29 of 2007, exactly 10 years after the targic mass suicide of a UFO cult that called itself "Heaven's Gate". Well, this is a sister cult to Heaven's Gate. What's a sister cult.? A sister cult is a group that has alot of things in common with another group. God's Gates favor Heaven's Gate doctrines and verbally smash anybody who opposes them or Heaven's Gate, calling the opposers as Satanic. http://webspawner.com/users/thegatesoffoxmulder/ is the URL of the God's Gates website. This is a two paged website that has disclaimers and scary reasoning on it. Page 2 gives some startling reasoning as to WHY it is okay for a member of their cult OR a member of Heaven's Gate to commit suicide. But, they claim, anybody outside of their group who kills themselves is doomed to resurrect as gases that rise from corpses.

Since the leader of the group, J. Stenwick, hails Heaven's Gate and Applewhie as heroes PLUS an agreement of the reasoning behind suicide, then it would be possible to 'assume' that they too plan on leaving this universe on 2007.

Any thoughts?

Wandering Star

Yes it seems very possible. All you need is a warped Charismatic leader and people who want to believe it.

There have been mass suicides in the past and no doubt there will be mass suicides in the future. Such is the way of the world.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Yes it seems very possible. All you need is a warped Charismatic leader and people who want to believe it

And what, pray tell, is the main tenet of christianity? That the leader will come back and everyone will die. For some bizarre reason people have wanted to believe this for millennia. Upon that death you will rise again and do something - clearly without all that you hold dear in this life - and that you, my dear Adstar, will rise again to wonderful life while the rest of us will burn forever.

Sorry, don't let me interrupt, what were you saying about being warped?

Yes. Surely it was a tragic thing that some wierdos killed themselves. They had contributed so much to society. Yeah.

Yes it seems very possible. All you need is a warped Charismatic leader and people who want to believe it.

Haha! Funniest case of pots and kettles I've seen on this forum.

And what, pray tell, is the main tenet of christianity? That the leader will come back and everyone will die. For some bizarre reason people have wanted to believe this for millennia. Upon that death you will rise again and do something - clearly without all that you hold dear in this life - and that you, my dear Adstar, will rise again to wonderful life while the rest of us will burn forever.

Sorry, don't let me interrupt, what were you saying about being warped?


Ummm this thread is about mass suicide and cults that promote suicide as a legitimate avenue. Christianity has always been against suicide. The atheist euthanasia movement has more in common with these cults then Christianity does.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Why is it that slashing your wrist et al is suicide yet allowing someone to kill you without lifting a finger in order to obey the prime directive, thou shalt not kill, is not? In other words to allow yourself to die for religious reasons, even though you might have been able to prevent it, is not considered suicide....am I missing something here?

Ummm this thread is about mass suicide and cults that promote suicide as a legitimate avenue. Christianity has always been against suicide. The atheist euthanasia movement has more in common with these cults then Christianity does.

Could it be argued that given christian beliefs that "the end is nigh" and that the saviour will come to kill everyone very soon, that suicide isn't really needed - and that eskimos and atheists and whoever else it is that goes around killing people for no good reason, are wasting their time given that we'll all be dead very soon anyway? I mean c'mon, mass suicide or mass death all result in the exact same thing - the cultists just saved your god the hassle of doing the job. Why is it that religion and cults always end up with mass human death?

It’s all about the intent. A suicide seeks to take control of their moment of death. The act of suicide centres on a desire to die.

Being a martyr on the other hand involves the primary desire to give the Gospel message. The intent of the Martyr is not to go out and find someone that they hope will kill them for preaching the Gospel. Becoming a martyr can be a job hazard that comes with giving the Gospel message. We are permitted to attempt to flee from death if God gives us the opportunity.

So a Christian should not have a goal of becoming a martyr, but they should be willing to die as a martyr if necessary.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Ummm this thread is about mass suicide and cults that promote suicide as a legitimate avenue. Christianity has always been against suicide.
...


Incorrect.

There is no injunction against suicide in Christian theology.
The injunction came from, and is particular to the Christian Church.

Christianity seems to view life on Earth to be insignificant when compared to an eternal time of peace and happiness in the after life. This view needs an admonition against suicide to avoid extreme loss of membership.

The notion of making spiritual advancement by suicide is complete nonsense

CC Antya 4.55: "My dear Sanātana," He said, "if I could attain Kṛṣṇa by committing suicide, I would certainly give up millions of bodies without a moment's hesitation.

CC Antya 4.56: "You should know that one cannot attain Kṛṣṇa simply by giving up the body. Kṛṣṇa is attainable by devotional service. There is no other means for attaining Him.

CC Antya 4.57: "Acts such as suicide are influenced by the mode of ignorance, and in ignorance and passion one cannot understand who Kṛṣṇa is.

CC Antya 4.58: "Unless one discharges devotional service, one cannot awaken one's dormant love for Kṛṣṇa, and there is no means for attaining Him other than awakening that dormant love.

CC Antya 4.59: [The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, said:] "My dear Uddhava, neither through aṣṭāńga-yoga [the mystic yoga system for controlling the senses], nor through impersonal monism or an analytical study of the Absolute Truth, nor through study of the Vedas, nor through austerities, charity or acceptance of sannyāsa can one satisfy Me as much as by developing unalloyed devotional service unto Me."

CC Antya 4.60: "Measures like suicide are causes for sin. A devotee never achieves shelter at Kṛṣṇa's lotus feet by such actions.

The notion of making spiritual advancement by suicide is complete nonsense....According to the religion you follow, perhaps. Not everyone follows the same religion.
Or has your time on this board shown you nothing in that regard??

According to the religion you follow, perhaps. Not everyone follows the same religion.
Or has your time on this board shown you nothing in that regard??

I never said that everything that goes down in the name of religion is bonafide, much like you would be hesitant to saythat everything that goes down in the name of science is bonafide

It’s all about the intent. A suicide seeks to take control of their moment of death. The act of suicide centres on a desire to die.

Being a martyr on the other hand involves the primary desire to give the Gospel message. The intent of the Martyr is not to go out and find someone that they hope will kill them for preaching the Gospel. Becoming a martyr can be a job hazard that comes with giving the Gospel message. We are permitted to attempt to flee from death if God gives us the opportunity.

So a Christian should not have a goal of becoming a martyr, but they should be willing to die as a martyr if necessary.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
I find this to be deeply disturbing.

Are you serious?

You'd willingly give your life for your religion or to spread the message of your religion? What if spreading the word would also mean that others would have to die for the cause? You'd be willing to die and take others out with you just to spread that message? Would you be willing to die if you knew that doing so would result in others dying or suffering?

And after you've died a martyr, what then? How can you keep spreading the 'word' if you are dead? How much of a martyr would you be if you accidently take out innocent lives in the process of your martyrdom? How forgiving would your god be if you killed others in your willingness to die spreading his word or 'gospel'?

There is no such thing as being a martyr. What there is are people who are willing to go to extremes for their beliefs and stupid enough to allow themselves to die for said beliefs. No one should be willing to die to spread any message. I will say I would put myself in harms way to save my child (eg push him out of way if a truck was coming towards him or something like that.. call me an over protective parent but I doubt any parent would sit back and watch their child die without trying to do something to save them, but I wouldn't die willingly), but I'd never give my life to spread someone's message. Give me a break Ads, your statement shows that religion can in its entirety be dangerous to society, especially when we have people who say that a person should be willing to die and become a martyr if necessary.

I find this to be deeply disturbing.

Are you serious?

Yes, why would i say it if i was not serious? Do you think this is a joke.



You'd willingly give your life for your religion or to spread the message of your religion?

Yes.



What if spreading the word would also mean that others would have to die for the cause? You'd be willing to die and take others out with you just to spread that message? Would you be willing to die if you knew that doing so would result in others dying or suffering?

I am a bit confused here. Are you suggesting that i would kill others? I am not a muslim i am a Christian. A Christian martyr does not kill others. A Christian martyr becomes one when he is killed.



And after you've died a martyr, what then? How can you keep spreading the 'word' if you are dead?

There are plenty more where i came from. God can raise up messengers from wherever and whenever He wants. If i die as a martyr i get an early mark into eternity with God, and that beats living in this world for sure. :)



How much of a martyr would you be if you accidently take out innocent lives in the process of your martyrdom? How forgiving would your god be if you killed others in your willingness to die spreading his word or 'gospel'?

Once again i think your getting Christian martyrdom mixed up with islamic martyrdom, two very different species.



There is no such thing as being a martyr.

Yes there are. Stephenwas the first but many have benn added to him down throughout the ages and many are being added today.



No one should be willing to die to spread any message.

Well many disagree with you. If you have the truth you should be willing to die for it. People are willing to die for a lot less things than their faith.



I will say I would put myself in harms way to save my child (eg push him out of way if a truck was coming towards him or something like that.. call me an over protective parent but I doubt any parent would sit back and watch their child die without trying to do something to save them, but I wouldn't die willingly), but I'd never give my life to spread someone's message.

It's good that you are willing to die for someone you love (your child) But We Christians are called on to Love all men and be willing to die for their salvation. That is why we are willing to die for spreading the message of Jesus.



Give me a break Ads, your statement shows that religion can in its entirety be dangerous to society, especially when we have people who say that a person should be willing to die and become a martyr if necessary.

How can someone who is willing to be killed be a danger to society? Only a person who is willing to kill for their religion could be a danger to a society. Once again your are getting Christian martyrdom mixed up with islamic martyrdom. We do not kill others for our God, but we are prepared to be killed for our God. Just as Jesus was prepared to be killed for all mankind even those who murdered Him.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Yes, why would i say it if i was not serious? Do you think this is a joke.

Yes.

Yes.
Ermm ok.

I am a bit confused here. Are you suggesting that i would kill others? I am not a muslim i am a Christian. A Christian martyr does not kill others. A Christian martyr becomes one when he is killed.
There is no distinction. There is martyrdom and there is martyrdom. Both are one and the same, regardless of your religion.

What I was asking was that if your dying for your message, would mean that others would also die along with you, would you still do it? What if your death causes the death of others, would you still be willing to become a martyr?


There are plenty more where i came from.
That is what frightens me.

God can raise up messengers from wherever and whenever He wants. If i die as a martyr i get an early mark into eternity with God, and that beats living in this world for sure.
Good grief you are serious! You seem offended by the thought that you are somehow different from Islamic martyr's or martyrs of other religions, but you are not. All martyrs are one and the same. Extremists who are willing to die to make sure their message gets across to the masses. In the end the masses will remember you for 2 days and then get on with their own lives. Where does that leave you? Dead as a doorknob. Dead for no good reason, other than for your own selfish reasons because you think your actions will get you to god earlier.

Once again i think your getting Christian martyrdom mixed up with islamic martyrdom, two very different species.
No they are not. You wish to distinguish your own brand of martyrdom as being different, as though you are somehow better. But at the end of the day both are exactly the same.

Yes there are. Stephenwas the first but many have benn added to him down throughout the ages and many are being added today.
I dont see martyrdom. I see idiots fulfilling what they think is some sort of warped prophecy that does not exist other than in their own minds. It is people like you that make me sometimes think that religious nutters should be locked up forever, because you pose a danger not only to yourself, but to others in your self deluded fantasy that you are somehow doing gods work through means of violence to not only yourself but to others as well.

You might think that if you one day die as a martyr that you wouldn't be harming anyone else but merely spreading the message, but I disagree. You'd be harming those left behind to pick up the mess of your death. There'd be those who might be unwilling witnesses to your untimely demise who would be harmed. The list can go on and on in how your supposed martyrdom could harm others not just physically but mentally. But I realise that listing them would probably make you more enamoured at the thought of becoming a martyr because you'd think the message would be spread even more. Pathetic!

Well many disagree with you. If you have the truth you should be willing to die for it. People are willing to die for a lot less things than their faith.
No if I had the truth, I'd be more willing to remain alive to spread it. Because if you have the so called truth and you are dead, you are not exactly in a position to spread it. Yes people are willing to die for less than their faith. Some are willing to die for others they love. Some are willing to die for tangible things and truths. Not for their own self deluded fantasy of getting to god quicker.

It's good that you are willing to die for someone you love (your child) But We Christians are called on to Love all men and be willing to die for their salvation. That is why we are willing to die for spreading the message of Jesus.
Is that why Jesus cried out to his father about being foresaken? From all stories told of the so called crucifixion, the boy was not happy about being let down by his father.

How can someone who is willing to be killed be a danger to society? Only a person who is willing to kill for their religion could be a danger to a society. Once again your are getting Christian martyrdom mixed up with islamic martyrdom. We do not kill others for our God, but we are prepared to be killed for our God. Just as Jesus was prepared to be killed for all mankind even those who murdered Him.
Again, martyrdom is martyrdom. There is no religious distinction for people who are crazy enough to die for their god or to get a particular message across. The means by which they achieve their goal might be different but the reason and the message they are trying to spread is one and the same.. they all do it for god, to spread their gods message and to be blessed by their god and to get to heaven and eternal life that little bit quicker. You know what? You actually scare the crap out of me. The thought that there are people like you roaming the street scares me.

Originally Posted by Adstar
Yes, why would i say it if i was not serious? Do you think this is a joke.


Yes.




Then i will not bother answering your points.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Then i will not bother answering your points.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
Did I think you were joking? In all honesty yes I did. But then as I read through the rest of the post I realised that you were not. But it's ok Ads. I understand that you are probably unable to answer them.

Did I think you were joking? In all honesty yes I did. But then as I read through the rest of the post I realised that you were not. But it's ok Ads. I understand that you are probably unable to answer them.


Indeed.
One doesn't go to an asylum to practice quantificational logic.

:-)

Did I think you were joking? In all honesty yes I did. But then as I read through the rest of the post I realised that you were not. But it's ok Ads. I understand that you are probably unable to answer them.


Oh bells if you honestly though i was joking and then after reading the rest changed your mind then you would have removed the "Yes" from your post before posting it. :rolleyes:

Me thinks you knew i was serious all along, but just threw that "Yes" in as some pathetic attempt to mock.

It is amazing how people reveal themselves in here. Your a liar bells running from one position to another depending on the circumstances.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

It is amazing how people reveal themselves in here. .


Yes it is. I for one Adstar, and I've never told you this before because I play along until I get bored, but I don't think you believe a single word of what you write. I think you get some kind of perverse pleasure manipulating the forum populace with great performances of cyberspace acting. I'll give you credit for making your points and initiating debate.

Biblical scholar? Probably. Not much use for that other than to do what most people with vast amounts of knowledge on nothing do, strut their stuff. I envision an Adstar sitting behind a pc, armed to the teeth with biblical references just waiting to deliver the holy counterpunch to every argument. It is really good stuff. You are rare ... who would ever think that a religious authority could play the Devil's advocate. Genius

Ah..the anonymity of the internet.

Oh bells if you honestly though i was joking and then after reading the rest changed your mind then you would have removed the "Yes" from your post before posting it. :rolleyes:

So you expected me to scroll right back up and delete things from my post to please you? HEH!

Me thinks you knew i was serious all along, but just threw that "Yes" in as some pathetic attempt to mock.
If I had wanted to mock you I would have done so openly. I really was surprised the more I read through your post as I was replying that you were in fact serious. But it takes all kinds to make a world I suppose. You have the sane and the raving lunatics. I'll leave you to guess which category I place you in. And yes that was me mocking you. :)

It is amazing how people reveal themselves in here.
Indeed. You have always known my stance on religion, so you can hardly be amazed or surprised that I find your wish to becoming a 'martyr', so you can get to god quicker, to be abhorrent and disturbing, to say the least. I had always pegged you as a conservative christian, but I never realised you had gone so far as to think your own death could bring you pleasure since you'd get to spending eternity with god that much quicker and that you'd consider yourself blessed if you died spreading the word (for lack of a better term). You then attempt to distinguish yourself as being above other people who've died for their cause, saying yours is better because you are a christian. Please, you are as bad as all the people who go to their deaths thinking themselves martyr's and doing so with a smile lusting for the life after death that does not exist. You still haven't answered my question by the way. I find it interesting that you keep dodging it. So I shall as it again...

"If your dying for your message, would mean that others would also die along with you, would you still do it? What if your death causes the death of others, would you still be willing to become a martyr?" I am not asking with the thought of you blowing yourself up to get your so called blessing, but if say your death would result in others dying as a consequence, would you still go to the burning stake as though you were a child running towards a lolly?

Your a liar bells running from one position to another depending on the circumstances.
Am I? How so? Because I personally think you are a raving lunatic who would harm himself if he thought he could convert someone or pass the word of god? Damn straight I do. I was being honest when I said I find you frightening. Sadly so. How have I changed position in regards to that or in regards to religion in general?

Yes it is. I for one Adstar, and I've never told you this before because I play along until I get bored, but I don't think you believe a single word of what you write. I think you get some kind of perverse pleasure manipulating the forum populace with great performances of cyberspace acting. I'll give you credit for making your points and initiating debate.

Biblical scholar? Probably. Not much use for that other than to do what most people with vast amounts of knowledge on nothing do, strut their stuff. I envision an Adstar sitting behind a pc, armed to the teeth with biblical references just waiting to deliver the holy counterpunch to every argument. It is really good stuff. You are rare ... who would ever think that a religious authority could play the Devil's advocate. Genius

Ah..the anonymity of the internet.


Interesting theory. But wrong. You think i am satans advocate. Strange to hear that from someone who professes not to believe in such beings. I have a theory myself PsychoticEpisode. That there are worshippers of Lucifer on this board who are feigning atheism.

How does that grab you?


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

That there are worshippers of Lucifer on this board who are feigning atheism.

Lol, your statements just get all the more daft as time goes on. Have you ever sat in front of a mirror and said the things you say here to yourself? Perhaps you should try it out.

Anyone must be a piss poor leader if they think they can lead people in death.

Yes, suicide cults are nutjobs all wacked on someones belief system, do they deserve to die? thats not my decision to make, in reality it should be left to chance and old age and in certain respects their deaths aren't "Martyrdom" they are just a cowards way out of a system that they feel they can't be apart of.

The sooner people grow up and realise that religion is just a form of Subliminal neural linguistic programming (Mind Control), the better.

Interesting theory. But wrong. You think i am satans advocate. Strange to hear that from someone who professes not to believe in such beings. I have a theory myself PsychoticEpisode. That there are worshippers of Lucifer on this board who are feigning atheism.

How does that grab you?


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Worshippers of Lucifer are no different than worshippers of God, both equally nonsensical in their praise of mythical beings.

I have a theory myself PsychoticEpisode. That there are worshippers of Lucifer on this board who are feigning atheism.

How does that grab you?

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

*************
M*W: "Feigning atheism" is an impossible feat. You either are or you're not. There is no "feigning." so called Christians, on the other hand, feign Christianity all day long. They even bother going to their churches to do their feigning! Some may even pray with their families at dinner time just for the "show" of it. Others may read the bible together or have prayer meetings and not be a bit sincere about it. Christianity can be feigned, but atheism cannot. Since atheism refers to the "lack" of belief in a religion, there are no handy props centerstage.

Even agnostics can do some feigning from the span between religion and atheism.

If I don't believe in dying demigod savior myths, then I also don't believe in mythological adversaries who rule hell. It's not surprising that some religions feign certain bible scripture while other religions take it literally.

Athiests on the other hand don't feign anything. We just don't believe in the power and control of the human being by some forced reasoning in faith. With all the contradictions and lies in the bible, and the tenets that were built upon these lies, the only truth to be found is in atheism, where there is no room for questionable authority.

Adstar, if you think I am going to respond to the insinuation that I and quite possibly some of the other atheists on this forum are actually followers of the devil then you are sadly mistaken. As I said, I find your attempts at goading comical but at least they're nicely camouflaged. I sense that you're running out of things to say, I don't blame you because whether you believe this gobbledygook or not there is a point when it becomes boringly repetitive. I am noticing that as you supposedly defend God and the hereafter that your usual impeccable wisdom has taken a turn for the worse. There are more comments on your lame reasoning than ever before. Maybe its time to claim a small victory in that you lasted this long than suffer an embarassing defeat while grasping at straws. Either way I admire the effort but I can't in all honesty and good conscience believe in your sincerity.

Interesting theory. But wrong. You think i am satans advocate. Strange to hear that from someone who professes not to believe in such beings.
HEH! "Devil's advocate" is merely a saying Ads.

I have a theory myself PsychoticEpisode. That there are worshippers of Lucifer on this board who are feigning atheism.
Yes my son. And I am coming for your soul this very second. Can you feel my pitchfork stabbing you in the left cheek of your buttock?

Shish Kebab anyone? :D

It would seem to have the potential to do so. To do what? To commit mass suicide on March 29 of 2007, exactly 10 years after the targic mass suicide of a UFO cult that called itself "Heaven's Gate". Well, this is a sister cult to Heaven's Gate. What's a sister cult.? A sister cult is a group that has alot of things in common with another group. God's Gates favor Heaven's Gate doctrines and verbally smash anybody who opposes them or Heaven's Gate, calling the opposers as Satanic. http://webspawner.com/users/thegatesoffoxmulder/ is the URL of the God's Gates website.

Any thoughts?

yeah ...HAVE A NICE TRIP morrons! :p :rolleyes:
few idiots less on earth is all the better

I do not intend to leave this place. There is some reason why God wants me to come here. I do not really understand why. I have often though to myself that i could be far more productive in offering the Love of God elsewhere then among committed anti-christs. But then again maybe there is someone here that God has sent me to gather. That must be it. Otherwise i am here so that you can hear the truth that you will reject and therefore be justly condemned to eternity in the lake of fire for rejecting the Love of The Truth. Either way i serve Gods will.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

I do not intend to leave this place. There is some reason why God wants me to come here. I do not really understand why.
You think it is god who sent you here? How did god do that ads?

I have often though to myself that i could be far more productive in offering the Love of God elsewhere then among committed anti-christs.
You're one of those guys who stands on benches in shopping centres and screams out passages from the bible, aren't you? Or who stands outside clubs and bars trying to preach and gather in the wayward flock?

But then again maybe there is someone here that God has sent me to gather. That must be it.
Whoever that person may be, may then run very fast away from you. I would pity anyone caught in the clutches of your hot little hands.

Otherwise i am here so that you can hear the truth that you will reject and therefore be justly condemned to eternity in the lake of fire for rejecting the Love of The Truth.
How very christian of you.

Either way i serve Gods will.
So it's gods will that you come off like a raving lunatic?

I do not intend to leave this place. There is some reason why God wants me to come here. I do not really understand why.

Oh! the humility, the sense of self rightiouness comes to save us poor souls, this idiot like many others come to sites like this for one reason and one reason only. To strenghthen their beliefs by our rediculing him, yes, he turns the other cheek, yes he does take the abuse, but he believes he is doing god's work. You better do praying out in the middle of the park, and please have a hat with some monetary change, some will give, most will not. Preach, preach, and preach till your throat goes soar, spread the word out there, not in here, where brains exist, where satanists dwell, were atheists rule, go to central park, there's some of your homeless comrades waiting there for you! :p

I do not intend to leave this place. There is some reason why God wants me to come here. I do not really understand why. I have often though to myself that i could be far more productive in offering the Love of God elsewhere then among committed anti-christs. But then again maybe there is someone here that God has sent me to gather. That must be it. Otherwise i am here so that you can hear the truth that you will reject and therefore be justly condemned to eternity in the lake of fire for rejecting the Love of The Truth. Either way i serve Gods will.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

*************

M*W: Like other Christians who have come here, you came here to preach. The truth of the matter is, you came here to learn, and that's why you choose not to leave.

HAIL SATAN!

..... i am here so that you can hear the truth that you will reject and therefore be justly condemned to eternity in the lake of fire for rejecting the Love of The Truth. Either way i serve Gods will.

I think you have done more for atheism than anyone here. You have showed us the nonsense in a way that should convince any religious fence sitter to kiss god goodbye.

This is all so hysterical. First the forum is overtaken with racists and now the religious freaks are swarming all over the place.

Bells: What there is are people who are willing to go to extremes for their beliefs and stupid enough to allow themselves to die for said beliefs. No one should be willing to die to spread any message

Well you know Bells Jesus did willingly lay his feeble body on the cross to save the world and pass his father's message. I say let em go! Rid the earth of them all. I wish them gods speed in search of their father's house. Too bad there are not more willing to lay themselves peacefully down to rest.

Hey Bells have you ever considered perhaps this may be a strange form of natural selection? I mean those with a diseased mind and spirit (or simply the dim-witted) self-destructing and unwittingly taking their memes out of the meme pool. I say we should encourage them, especially if they don't intend to harm the innocent.

Abster it is commendable that your freak folk only target those over 18 and 21 and don't intend to bother the rest of us whenever it is they decide to exit this earth. Too bad you are not seriously suicidle I would have had more sympathy for you .

All you need is a warped Charismatic leader and people who want to believe it.



Seems to me the biggest mass suicides of recent times were the trench fighting battles of the first world war. Millions of people blindly following orders for king and country.



There is no such thing as being a martyr. What there is are people who are willing to go to extremes for their beliefs and stupid enough to allow themselves to die for said beliefs.


So all those people through history who have risked and lost their lives fighting social injustice, oppression and racial hatred and discrimination are all stupid are they !!!

Seems to me the biggest mass suicides of recent times were the trench fighting battles of the first world war. Millions of people blindly following orders for king and country.



Yes, at the beginning of that war they danced in the streets waving flags. They where so existed that the war to end all wars had begun. They soon found out war was not fun. It’s a pity they died for nothing. If they had been followers of Jesus they would have taken no part in it.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

If they had been followers of Jesus they would have taken no part in it.

That is just so pathetic! :rolleyes:

click (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0486358/trailers-screenplay-E28810-10-2)

Brainwashing has been what has caused wars, and brain washing continues today to start even more wars!!! :bugeye:

Hey Bells have you ever considered perhaps this may be a strange form of natural selection? I mean those with a diseased mind and spirit (or simply the dim-witted) self-destructing and unwittingly taking their memes out of the meme pool. I say we should encourage them, especially if they don't intend to harm the innocent.

Yes. I can see the pilgrimage now. The self promoting martyr's carrying their own stakes and tinder with which to alight themselves. Maybe you're right. The world would be a better place without their ability to continue corrupting future generations.

So all those people through history who have risked and lost their lives fighting social injustice, oppression and racial hatred and discrimination are all stupid are they !!!
Please tell me that you did not just compare Ads to say Martin Luther King. Or possibly Ghandi and Mandella who willingly put themselves in danger to save others and to free the oppressed. Or even the Dalai Lama who led his people out of Tibet and away from possible prosecution and death by the Chinese.

Ads is not fighting to social injustice, against oppression or racial hatred. Ads is fighting a battle to put himself in a better light in front of his god so that he is rewarded for his so called work. Now what that work actually is, we are not yet clear. So far I'm thinking that he's trying to convert others to his way of thinking and to save them from burning in a hell that does not exist.. his thinking is that the more he reels in, the better chance he has of getting to heaven. The people in the past did not do it for self gratification and to get closer to god that little bit quicker. King for example did not die willingly. He intended to live to continue fighting against oppression. He did not do it all to put himself in a better light to his god. Now lets look at Ads shall we? The selfish little git only cares about himself and how god will somehow bless him with a nice little spot in heaven and eternal life.

Yes, at the beginning of that war they danced in the streets waving flags. They where so existed that the war to end all wars had begun. They soon found out war was not fun. It’s a pity they died for nothing. If they had been followers of Jesus they would have taken no part in it.
LOL! This link was from Roman in another thread. Maybe you should have a look.

Link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=co1_9lR9EpM)

Maybe you should start telling your fellow bible bashers what you just said above. What am I saying, you probably approve of the crap in that clip. I've said before, I'll say it again. You scare the crap out of me. The thought that you breath the same air as my son scares the crap out of me. The thought that you are free and roaming the streets scares the crap out of me.

Thanks Bells for reposting that link, I must of miss it!.

BTW

this here song is for you Adstar:

click (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2AqGh8-el0&mode=related&search=)

Please tell me that you did not just compare Ads to say Martin Luther King. Or possibly Ghandi and Mandella who willingly put themselves in danger to save others and to free the oppressed. Or even the Dalai Lama who led his people out of Tibet and away from possible prosecution and death by the Chinese.
.

I was not comparing adstar to anything, my reply to you was not intended to be connected with adstar at all. I simply read your post about there being "no such thing as a martyr" and "anyone who dies for a belief is stupid" and disagreed with it

I do not agree with adstar's views either, but you went too far the other way in above post.

If you wrote, there is no such thing as religious matyrdom specifically to gain access to heaven, as per christian and muslim matyrdom and anyone who commits suicide for these reasons is stupid then I would agree with you.

But as your post reads in general terms I would have to disagree for the examples you mention above plus many more.

As for the general principal of risking ones life or even dying (not deliberately committing suicide) for a higher principal than ones own self survival, well I think that is one of the qualities that make humans human.

And whether that higher principal we hold is a social, political , religious or philosophical one we cant be too judgmental about. Because who can says which of us is right and wrong and where the boundaries of the religious, political , social etc start and end.

Of course as long as it is only our own life that is risked and not those of others and as long as life is not taken to further a belief system.

Using your example of Ghandi, his aims were social and political, his methods based firmly in his religion, all of which can maybe be said to make up his philosophy. Can we really seperate these things apart?

That is just so pathetic! :rolleyes:

Brainwashing has been what has caused wars, and brain washing continues today to start even more wars!!! :bugeye:


The big problem is that so many of us are caught between people like this on one side and the Islamic fundamentalists on the other.
And the ones' on our side are the ones with their finger on the nuclear button(as in the fundamentalist influence on the current US govt)

Here's a link to check out.
A christian minister in texas calling for global war to help speed up biblical prophecy.

http://www.countercurrents.org/us-sikand171105.htm

LOL! This link was from Roman in another thread. Maybe you should have a look.

Link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=co1_9lR9EpM)

Maybe you should start telling your fellow bible bashers what you just said above. What am I saying, you probably approve of the crap in that clip. I've said before, I'll say it again. You scare the crap out of me. The thought that you breath the same air as my son scares the crap out of me. The thought that you are free and roaming the streets scares the crap out of me.

Why should that video interest me? :confused: What has that video got to do with what we are talking about here?

You really are full of fear aren’t you bells. So much so that you cannot read what i have posted with clarity. Your already blinded by your fears, satan will use that fear in the future. The powers that be on this earth always use the fears of fearful people like you.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

You scare the crap out of me. The thought that you breath the same air as my son scares the crap out of me. The thought that you are free and roaming the streets scares the crap out of me.

I don't think Adstar is out on the street. He sits behind a pc protected by the anonymity of the internet. I don't think he really believes the cowpies of reasoning that he tosses out there. He just likes to get people riled up.

That video clip was an eye opener. I got a kick out of the kid who at the beginning said he was 5 when he was saved because he 'wanted more out of life.' Either the kid was a good actor or he was coached as to what to say. Some may equate coaching to brainwashing when it comes to kids. It is possible that the kid knew he had better say the right thing or else. I don't know too many 5 year olds who want more out of life. If ever there was a contrived sentence uttered ...that was it. I think the video lost instant credibility as soon as that kid spoke.

There is no anonymity on the Internet. Not where it counts. The powers that be know everything site your PC has visited on the net and every keystroke you have made while you where there.

If people think the Internet is anonymous then they need to know it is far from it.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

There is no anonymity on the Internet. Not where it counts. The powers that be know everything site your PC has visited on the net and every keystroke you have made while you where there.

If people think the Internet is anonymous then they need to know it is far from it.


For the purposes of this forum I think it is safe to say most are anonymous. May the penis enlargement and cialis people never find you.

Anyway Adstar, I expected much more than a lame retort on my ignorance of computer vulnerability. No reference to that giant computer geek in the sky? or was that implied?

What about that Jesus Camp flick? Have you ever heard such a bunch of nonsense in all your life. Recruiting an army of soldiers to fight God's fight? Even the military hasn't posted 'Uncle Sam Wants You' at the local kindergarten.

That flick could just as easily been produced by people against religious education for kids. Propaganda bullshit...not worth two cents to either side of the argument.

I was not comparing adstar to anything, my reply to you was not intended to be connected with adstar at all. I simply read your post about there being "no such thing as a martyr" and "anyone who dies for a belief is stupid" and disagreed with it


I meant religious belief. I thought my post was clear enough in that regard. My apologies for any confusion. Adstar basically stated that he would gladly go to his death to become a martyr so he can get to the joys of eternal life with god that little bit faster. He is not so concerned about any message. His prime motive in committing such an act would be to get to god faster through his death.

Using your example of Ghandi, his aims were social and political, his methods based firmly in his religion, all of which can maybe be said to make up his philosophy. Can we really seperate these things apart?
No we cannot seperate Ghandi's beliefs and his actions in attempting to liberate his people. But he did not do so out of a selfish need to put himself in a better light with any deity. He did it out of a social consciousness that he had developed and honed when in South Africa.

And in his actions, he never became a martyr. Instead he became a national hero and symbol to what his people could aspire to be.

Why should that video interest me? What has that video got to do with what we are talking about here?
Sadly, you'll never know because you are blind to the fact that there are hundreds of little children being conditioned to be just like you and to think just as you do.

You really are full of fear aren’t you bells. So much so that you cannot read what i have posted with clarity. Your already blinded by your fears, satan will use that fear in the future. The powers that be on this earth always use the fears of fearful people like you.
I have fear that people like you could and do end up harming and/or killing others just to achieve their goal of spreading that religious message. You're damn right I'm scared. And since last weekend, my fear has basically tripled of people who believe as you do. I'll tell you why. I have a cousin who is a religious nut. Believes just as you do. Her whole life has been consumed by serving god. Her idiotic husband is just as bad and she has befriended a woman who is as bad, if not worse than they are. Last weekend there was a family reunion at her house. I went with my son as my husband had a prior engagement. Being an atheist, I have not baptised my son. Now my cousin has taken it into her head that my son and I are at risk of the devil. So on Sunday afternoon, she, her moron of a husband and her cow of a friend took it into their heads to baptise my son to protect him from the devil. I was sitting in the lounge with her sibblings (my other cousins) and their respective spouses and children, my one year old son was playing behind the couch I was sitting in. I had no reason to fear for his safety. We were amongst family who I believed cared for him and would do anything to keep him from harm and the house was safe as kids were running all over the place and he was playing with his cousins as kids normally play together. Sadly I was wrong.

After about 30 seconds, I realised I could no longer hear my one year old behind me. I honestly believed that as the curious and little cyclone he can be, that he'd snuck off to go and break something. So I got up and went looking in the family room where other members of my family were gathered. He was not there. I knew he could not get outside as all the doors were closed and he is too short to open anything as yet. So I headed down the hall way calling his name, when I heard him behind the closed bathroom door sounding a bit distressed. I tried to open the door and found it to be locked. I frankly started to panic really badly as I heard water splashing. I kept trying to open the door and calling his name and he was sounding more and more distressed. By this point, my cousin's sibblings and their spouses and the rest of my family had heard my panicked shouts and by this point I was crying and literally trying to break the door down. One went to look for my cousin (who the sister to the religious nut) to see if there was a way to open the door from the outside, while several of the others were trying to break the lock to get in. And then in all the panicked sounds I heard praying inside the bathroom. My cousin, her husband and friend had filled up the bathtub, had stripped my beautiful one year old son down and had been trying to baptise him in the bathtub. Not by dribbling some water on his head, but by doing the full immersion baptism.. ie, tipping him backwards and having the water cover him completely, even his head. We witnessed this when the door was unlocked by my cousin, just as her bitch of a friend immersed my baby in the water, all while reciting prayers and my son was by this point hysterical. He does not like his head being underwater, a reason we had to stop his swimming lessons as he'd panic and start choking when under water. My cousin and co had been trying to baptise my son.

The only thing that saved them from my calling the police and having them charged was the look on their 14year old's son face. He was devastated. I took my son and left the house and she, her husband and friend will never ever see me or my son again. Our whole family has been devastated by what she did and I can say with certainty I will never ever forgive her.

And you wonder why people like you cause me to feel fear? People like you and my cousin make me sick to my stomach.

If you are a true atheist then stupid ceremonial shit like baptism shouldn't bother you. So what if the kid gets baptized, it doesn't mean anything if there is no god. Let the dorks do their thing if it means peace and tranquility for the family. I hardly think a 1 year old knows what is going on.

I let our kids get baptized just to keep the in-laws quiet....it didn't mean anything to my wife and I. Hell, we even got married in a Catholic church and because I wasn't raised a Catholic I had to sign a piece of paper saying I'd raise my kids as Catholics. You know what, I signed it because it meant nothing but the in-laws thought it was the cat's ass.

It's not that I respected their faith, it was knowing that none of that mumbo-jumbo bullshit meant anything. My kid's have never set foot in a church and the in-laws really don't care. The ceremony is the thing...get over the religious stigma attached to it and look at it as if you were witnessing a flashback of primitive man. A lot of that crap is stuff handed down for centuries, it's just a bunch of hocus pocus.

I see.

So they snuck your child off without your knowledge or consent, locked him up in a bathroom, filled a bathtub and then pushed your child down under the water? You'd have accepted that kind of thing from your family just to keep the peace? My what a pushover you are.

I don't particularly give a flying crap about the notion of a baptism. My husband and I have stated our wish that our children (yes I am pregnant with our second) decide for themselves when they are adults. We are both atheists and both of our respective parents have accepted our decision and frankly realise that it is up to us to decide. What we did not expect was that my cousin would lock my son up in her bathroom and attempt to hold him under water while reciting a bunch of crap prayers about protecting him from evil. They even attempted to hold myself and her brother back when we rushed in to grab my son from under the water. That is how far it went. As soon as that door opened I and several members of our family were already piling into the bathroom and she and her husband actually tried to hold myself and her brother back as her friend held my son under the water while they prayed about the devil.

That was not just a baptism, it looked and felt like some kind of demented exorcism. I am sorry if you are willing to put up with that kind of behaviour from your family just to keep the peace. But where my son's safety is concerned, I will not bow down to any individual just to 'keep the peace' regardless of the fact that the individual is a family member of mine. The peace can kiss my arse as far as I am concerned in this matter. Maybe it was better my husband was not there. He was incensed when he found out what happened and I thought he was literally about to get in the car to go and wring her neck. The only reasons we have not pressed charges is because of their 14 year old son, who was devastated by what they did. I don't think he realised that their religious obsession (which appeared to have passed him by as he just ignores them half the time) had gotten to the point where they have the need to do what they did to my son.

Call me a pushover if you want. You have a situation there that I don't have. No one was kidnapped, forced or coerced because we played the game. We went along with it, I nearly broke out in laughter a few times but what difference did it make. If you don't believe in religious rites and ceremonies as we do then why should it bother you.

Is your child worse for wear? Was it worth all the hassle? We weighed the positives and negatives and decide it wasn't worth starting WWIII over anything as ridiculous as religious bullshit. Shit, i'd wager half the churches in North America are half-filled by people who would rather be somewhere else...why? to keep the peace.

Right now an atheist has to take a logical approach...is it better to split the family or fake things just to keep some harmony? Sacramental rage isn't the answer. If you had a job that paid 6 figures and your boss was a devout Christian would you announce your atheism and risk the quality of life you have attained by remaining quiet about the subject? No different than families. In-laws grow old, people move away. people die, jobs change, people split up, become addicts, drunks, recluses, whatever....nothing for the moment ever remains status quo. Simply put, keep the peace...no religious garbage is ever worth losing something you may regret later.

You'd have been happy if they baptised your child without your consent? What they did went beyond a baptism. They did not take him to church as one would in a normal baptism. There was no priest there. Instead they took him to their bathroom, stripped him naked and held him under water while reciting a bunch of mumbo jumbo. They all knew what my wishes as well as my husband's were. My whole family knows I am an atheist. This particular cousin has gone so far as to call me a heathen and demon because of the fact I simply do not believe. But I let it go, just to keep the peace.

However, when someone takes my child, strips him naked and holds him under water as part of some perveted religious practice, without my consent or knowledge, then I believe I have a right to be angry and upset. When they attempt to prevent me from stopping them, then I believe I have a right to be angry and upset.

No one in my family had asked that I baptise my child. They asked me if I was going to do it, and when I said no, that was the end of the matter. I know my parents were not happy about it, but they respected my decision and that was that. If you are willing to bend over backwards and suspend what you think is right just to maintain the peace, then so be it. But next time a member of your family does what my cousin did to my son, see how you'd react. As far as I and my husband are concerned, we never want to lay eyes on her again. It is one thing to respect another person and their beliefs or lack of and merely just let things slide to keep the peace. It is another thing altogether to have someone not only go against your wishes, but totally disrespect what your wishes are and do something as bad as what she has done. Family or no family, peace or no peace, there are some things which are totally unaccpetable. She has not only abused my trust, our relationship, our family bond and my wishes, but she has also abused my son in what she did.

When I read some of what Ads says in this and other threads, I sometimes think he and my cousin might be the same person. Their beliefs and what and how they say it is so similar, it actually sends chills up my spine. She too often ranted about about how dying to spread the word would put her closer to god. Now I realise she would do anything to 'save' someone from what she perceives as the devil.

I agree ...you're cousin crossed the line and she is most definitely whacked. You can equate her actions to whats happening in the world right now, force your religion on as many as you can because eventually we're all going to meet in a apocalyptic battle and kill each other to prove our god, even though they are one and the same , is better than your god.

Ads on the other hand is I suspect, a charlatan. Phoney as they come. I think he admires the way he can stir up an audience with just a bunch of goofy well placed words.

I have fear that people like you could and do end up harming and/or killing others just to achieve their goal of spreading that religious message. You're damn right I'm scared. And since last weekend, my fear has basically tripled of people who believe as you do. I'll tell you why. I have a cousin who is a religious nut. Believes just as you do. Her whole life has been consumed by serving god. Her idiotic husband is just as bad and she has befriended a woman who is as bad, if not worse than they are. Last weekend there was a family reunion at her house. I went with my son as my husband had a prior engagement. Being an atheist, I have not baptised my son. Now my cousin has taken it into her head that my son and I are at risk of the devil. So on Sunday afternoon, she, her moron of a husband and her cow of a friend took it into their heads to baptise my son to protect him from the devil. I was sitting in the lounge with her sibblings (my other cousins) and their respective spouses and children, my one year old son was playing behind the couch I was sitting in. I had no reason to fear for his safety. We were amongst family who I believed cared for him and would do anything to keep him from harm and the house was safe as kids were running all over the place and he was playing with his cousins as kids normally play together. Sadly I was wrong.

After about 30 seconds, I realised I could no longer hear my one year old behind me. I honestly believed that as the curious and little cyclone he can be, that he'd snuck off to go and break something. So I got up and went looking in the family room where other members of my family were gathered. He was not there. I knew he could not get outside as all the doors were closed and he is too short to open anything as yet. So I headed down the hall way calling his name, when I heard him behind the closed bathroom door sounding a bit distressed. I tried to open the door and found it to be locked. I frankly started to panic really badly as I heard water splashing. I kept trying to open the door and calling his name and he was sounding more and more distressed. By this point, my cousin's sibblings and their spouses and the rest of my family had heard my panicked shouts and by this point I was crying and literally trying to break the door down. One went to look for my cousin (who the sister to the religious nut) to see if there was a way to open the door from the outside, while several of the others were trying to break the lock to get in. And then in all the panicked sounds I heard praying inside the bathroom. My cousin, her husband and friend had filled up the bathtub, had stripped my beautiful one year old son down and had been trying to baptise him in the bathtub. Not by dribbling some water on his head, but by doing the full immersion baptism.. ie, tipping him backwards and having the water cover him completely, even his head. We witnessed this when the door was unlocked by my cousin, just as her bitch of a friend immersed my baby in the water, all while reciting prayers and my son was by this point hysterical. He does not like his head being underwater, a reason we had to stop his swimming lessons as he'd panic and start choking when under water. My cousin and co had been trying to baptise my son.

The only thing that saved them from my calling the police and having them charged was the look on their 14year old's son face. He was devastated. I took my son and left the house and she, her husband and friend will never ever see me or my son again. Our whole family has been devastated by what she did and I can say with certainty I will never ever forgive her.

And you wonder why people like you cause me to feel fear? People like you and my cousin make me sick to my stomach.

I wish to reply to this post. Not that i think it will have any affect on bells but for those who may be reading along and are not filled with blinding illogical fear as bells is.


Firstly i do not believe in taking another persons life for God. So bells statement:
"I have fear that people like you could and do end up harming and/or killing others just to achieve their goal of spreading that religious message."
Has absolutly no foundation to stand on in regards to me. If i was to kill another person for my God then i would be in rebellion against the will of my God and therefore would not be a follower of my God.


Secondly Bells states that i am the same as her relatives who baptised his son. This is also wrong.

Firstly: i do not believe in infant baptism as her relatives clearly do.

Secondly: i do not believe in forced baptisms

Thirdly: I believe that water baptism is not the saving act but belief and acceptance of Jesus as ones Redeemer is the saving act. Without belief water baptism means naught.

Final point: I believe bells baby son does not need saving until the time he reaches the age of understanding. babies do not need saving.



I hope bells overcomes her paralysing fear that has warped her judgement and he can one day communicate and understand, unhindered by the fear that blinds her.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Mass suicede for crazy cultists? I think that is a very fine way of practicing Social Darwinism...

what about smoking cigerrettes?

I see.

So they snuck your child off without your knowledge or consent, locked him up in a bathroom, filled a bathtub and then pushed your child down under the water? You'd have accepted that kind of thing from your family just to keep the peace? My what a pushover you are.

I don't particularly give a flying crap about the notion of a baptism. My husband and I have stated our wish that our children (yes I am pregnant with our second) decide for themselves when they are adults. We are both atheists and both of our respective parents have accepted our decision and frankly realise that it is up to us to decide. What we did not expect was that my cousin would lock my son up in her bathroom and attempt to hold him under water while reciting a bunch of crap prayers about protecting him from evil. They even attempted to hold myself and her brother back when we rushed in to grab my son from under the water. That is how far it went. As soon as that door opened I and several members of our family were already piling into the bathroom and she and her husband actually tried to hold myself and her brother back as her friend held my son under the water while they prayed about the devil.

That was not just a baptism, it looked and felt like some kind of demented exorcism. I am sorry if you are willing to put up with that kind of behaviour from your family just to keep the peace. But where my son's safety is concerned, I will not bow down to any individual just to 'keep the peace' regardless of the fact that the individual is a family member of mine. The peace can kiss my arse as far as I am concerned in this matter. Maybe it was better my husband was not there. He was incensed when he found out what happened and I thought he was literally about to get in the car to go and wring her neck. The only reasons we have not pressed charges is because of their 14 year old son, who was devastated by what they did. I don't think he realised that their religious obsession (which appeared to have passed him by as he just ignores them half the time) had gotten to the point where they have the need to do what they did to my son.

Yes, you had a right to be pissed off!! They violated your privacy and that of your child and had no right whatsoever to do that. Yep, they should consider themselves lucky you did not call the police.

It's nutcases like these that motivated me to follow another spiritual path in life.

what about smoking cigerrettes?

Yes that's working just fine LG, look at the numbers, most people are religious of one denomination or another given that there are literally thousands! Most of these people smoke cigs, since they are in the majority, it's only by the numbers that most of them will die do to cigarretes or other complications... Atheists are in the minority, I can't predict how many smoke or not, but they won't be the majority dieying from cigs..:p ;)

Yes that's working just fine LG, look at the numbers, most people are religious of one denomination or another given that there are literally thousands! Most of these people smoke cigs, since they are in the majority, it's only by the numbers that most of them will die do to cigarretes or other complications... Atheists are in the minority, I can't predict how many smoke or not, but they won't be the majority dieying from cigs..:p ;)

Intriguing - I wan't aware that atheists had a stance on smoking cigerettes - but on the topic of suicide I think it was either sarte or Nietzsche who declared that since the universe was ultimately nilhistic the only meanigful question was whether one should kill oneself or not
:D

Fasinating, however again look at the numbers, sinse most people claim to be theistically inclined from a 1000's of different variations, and a high percent of people comit suicide it's conclusive that most of these suicide victims are theist of one denomination or another! ;)

Atheist are in the minority, any behavior that you can come up with in your twirped little mind, theist are comiting in greater numbers!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQi96Fd5o8Q

Atheist are in the minority, any behavior that you can come up with in your twirped little mind, theist are comiting in greater numbers!
]

Its percentages that are important not numbers....



Anyway most people will tick the christian box in a survey or an a form , becuse they go to church at christmas or becuse they were once baptised, but most are not. Not practising the religion anyway. Dont know whether that applies with other religions or not.?

I heard on the news with all that stuff about the amish murder that there is virtually no police force in that county because the crime rate is virtually zero.
Well the amish certainly do practice their faith.. but according to you the amish community should be the crime centre of the USA?? please explain why it is not?

I heard on the news with all that stuff about the amish murder that there is virtually no police force in that county because the crime rate is virtually zero.
Well the amish certainly do practice their faith.. but according to you the amish community should be the crime centre of the USA?? please explain why it is not?


You know very little don't you?

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=2365919&page=1

It's not! and she's a victim! :mad:

You know very little don't you?

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=2365919&page=1

It's not! and she's a victim! :mad:

So does this incident put amish communities on par with Johannesburg?

Alert! Alert! God's Gates has now become Heaven's Gate: The New Generation. I guess they accepted the full 100% truth of the 39 followers and Marshall Applewhite. This is getting scary.

ws7:bugeye: