Fundamental versus Moderate Islam

Michael

01-22-07, 12:16 AM

S.A.M.

01-22-07, 01:07 AM

Fundamental versus Moderate Islam

OK, sorry for the long list, but here are what I suppose Fundamental Muslims think. What I would like is for Moderate Muslims, if any want to participate, to read through the list and pick out where Moderate Muslim belief differs. The reason why I ask is I want to know what distinguishes a Moderate from a Fundamental Muslim. At least in these regards.

So many questions!

1. Mohammed was the Last Prophet anyone who believes otherwise is wrong.

Yes, for Muslims.

2. The Baha’i are sinning by suggesting there was another Prophet.

A prophet (nabi) is different from a messenger (rasul). Prophets are given revelations while messengers are teachers. Mohammed is the last revealer but no doubt there may be other teachers.

3. Bahá'u'lláh was not a prophet of God.

I don't think he claimed to be a prophet, he claimed to be a teacher/redeemer.

4. The Bahá'í Faith is not correct.

Sorry don't really know much about it, so cannot comment.

5. Mohammed never made a mistake nor ever sinned.

He did his best and followed the teachings of Islam to the best of his ability. Thats all anyone can be expected to do.

6. Mohammed’s life should be held up as the ideal life and his actions emulated.

Mohammed himself was against people writing down his exploits. However, people generally need example rather than precept.

7. Mohammed killed non-Believers in war.

He defended himself and his people as any good leader would do.

8. Sometimes it is correct to kill.

Yes, in self-defence and to protect many innocents from a terrorist/criminal

9. Eating pork is a sin.

Its not healthy, just like eating blood or carcass. In case of no other alternative, however, there is no harm.

10. A person who is martyred will be rewarded in the afterlife.

No fundamentalist/moderate believes that, only those who need cannon fodder for political causes.

11. There is only one God and to believe there is more than one is wrong.

Thats the basis of Islam and is mandatory for Muslims.

12. The Xian Bible is flawed in some manner.

Not flawed, so much as not representative of the Gospels of Christ

13. The Torah is flawed in some manner.

No

14. Jesus was a just prophet and Xians are wrong to think he was the Christos.

Jesus was a most beloved Prophet, considered more beloved than Mohammed, and yes, he is not considered divine

15. The square rock in Arabia is special to God.

The "square rock" is a hollow cube which houses a room and has a door. It is used as the qibla (direction for prayers). It is believed to have been first built by Abraham (not the present construction, of course, but the original one). It is special to Muslims as a meeting point and a focus of their faith. No special association with God that I know of. In fact, Muhammed earlier used Jerusalem as the qibla and only changed later to Mecca.

16. The polytheistic Arabs, pre-Islam, where not correct in their beliefs.

The polytheism of the pre-Islamic Arabs consisted of djinns, demons and demi-gods probably in the Mediterranean tradition.

Pre-Islamic mythology does not discriminate between gods and demons. The jinn are considered as divinities of inferior rank, having many human attributes: they eat, drink, and procreate their kind, sometimes in conjunction with human beings; in which latter case the offspring shares the natures of both parents. The jinn smell and lick things, and have a liking for remnants of food. In eating they use the left hand. Usually they haunt waste and deserted places, especially the thickets where wild beasts gather. Cemeteries and dirty places are also favorite abodes. In appearing to man jinn assume sometimes the forms of beasts and sometimes those of men.

Generally jinn are peaceable and well disposed toward men. Many a pre-Islamic poet was believed to have been inspired by good jinn; and Muhammad himself was accused by his adversaries of having been inspired by jinn ("majnun"). But there are also evil jinn, who contrive to injure men.

17. The Qur’an is perfect.

In that it contains all the directions required for a fulfilling life

18. The Qur’an is written in pure Arabic.

Archaic Arabic, with Judeo-Christian and other roots familiar in use at the time but now not so much.

19. The polytheistic beliefs of Shinto Japanese is not correct.

No idea what they are.

20. The beliefs of Buddhism are in some manner not correct.

Actually Buddhism follows self-actualisation which is also what the Quran promotes, so the teachings are not adverse to Muslims

21. There is no such thing as reincarnation.

Correct. This is all there is

22. It is correct behavior, under the appropriate conditions, for a male to have 3 female wives.

In times of war or under circumstances when men are less in number, women may marry an already married man for the purpose of having a family or for economic protection, if they so desire, yes. Women must consent to the marriage.

23. Homosexual sex is a sin.

Not addressed in the Quran at all

24. There is an afterlife.

Yes, though what it entails is unknown

25. Allah will judge a persons life and may grant them rewards in heaven.
26. Allah will punish some people in the afterlife.

Yes everyone is accountable for every atom of good or bad they do.

27. Islamic belief is better than all other religious beliefs.

For a Muslim, yes, otherwise they would not be Muslims

28. A Muslim should never change their religion to Hinduism.
29. A Muslim should never change their religion to Xiantiy.
30. A Muslim should never change their religion to Buddhism.
31. A Muslim should never change their religion to Judaism.

Anyone who does not believe in Islam is not a Muslim anyway. Does not really matter whether they change to another belief or not.

32. The destruction of false idols to prevent idolatry is good.
33. The worship of idols is a sin.

Doesn't stop Muslims from idolising the Prophet, does it?
Anyway what other people do is no business of any Muslim

34. The reason many Islamic countries are in the mess they are in is because they are not practicing the “true” form of Islam.

Also because they are under dictators and most of them don't really study the religion anyway, just follow the rules laid down in their society blindly.

35. It would be better if the World were completely Islamic and every person was Muslim.

For Muslims, probably yes. However there are other people in the world who are not Muslim, so its not a realistic notion.

36. Atheism is a sin.
37. It is wrong to build Hindu temples in the KSA.

Religious freedom is a given in the Quran, and jiziya is taken, inter alia, for maintenance of religion structures, so the above two are not true, or at the least, not open to judgment by men.

38. Children should be taught to be Muslim at a very early age.

That is a decision for parents to make. An atheist will not teach his child Islam.

39. An Islamic government is better than a Secular government.

In what context? An ideal Islamic government would be secular, but human nature would make it highly unlikely, few secular governments are secular anyway.

40. The Xian crusades were wrong.
41. The Muslim conquest of Spain and Constantinople were good.

All politically motivated, no religious reasons.

42. A tax on non-Muslims is good.

Sure why not? Muslims are taxed too, and to a greater extent; non-Muslims should pay tax as well, just like in all countries.

43. Shiara Law is better than Secular law.

Depends entirely on the government. What think you of the Patriot Act?

So, what I’m curious about is: Where do Moderate Muslims differ in belief?

The basic beliefs are identical in all Muslims they differ mostly in the importance they give to practice of the religion and the religious freedom they give themselves as well as others, this is related more to their education and socio-economic status as well as their awareness of Islamic theology than anything else. The less people know about the religion, the more likely they are to have erroneous beliefs about it and the more vulnerable they are to exploitation and brain washing.

lightgigantic

01-22-07, 04:49 AM

Sam

“
21. There is no such thing as reincarnation.
”
Correct. This is all there is
is there a scriptural reference or commentary for this?

S.A.M.

01-22-07, 04:54 AM

Sam

is there a scriptural reference or commentary for this?

Hmm thats a general belief, but no, I don't believe there is a scriptural reference for it.

edit:

I found this:

Mainstream Islam rejects the concept of reincarnation. Believing in reincarnation into this world, in such a way that it could be interpreted as a denial of resurrection may constitute apostasy in Islam.

A very few sufi groups believe in reincarnation [1] claiming that this concept is mentioned in Quran 2:28:

"How can you deny God, when you were dead and God gave you life? Then God will cause you to die, and then revive you, and then you will be returned to God." (Quran 2:28)

The mainstream Islam rejects this understanding of the verse, claiming that it refers to the worldly human life and the consequent resurrection in the hereafter.

It is claimed by some sufi groups that the mystics and poets in the Islam tradition have celebrated this belief:

"I died as mineral and became a plant,
I died as plant and rose to animal,
I died as animal and I was man.
Why should I fear?
When was I less by dying?
Yet once more I shall die as man,
To soar with angels blest;
But even from angelhood I must pass on ..."
(excerpt from Masnawi, by Hazrat)

In his Masnavi, Rumi speaks about the "seventy-two forms I have worn".

lightgigantic

01-22-07, 04:55 AM

Hmm thats a general belief, but no, I don't believe there is a scriptural reference for it.

any ideas how it came about?

S.A.M.

01-22-07, 04:57 AM

any ideas how it came about?

see my edit.

see also this:
http://www.adishakti.org/_/reincarnation_in_islam.htm

lightgigantic

01-22-07, 05:04 AM

I just found this (http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:nf0Vm8QgiykJ:www.al-islam.org/organizations/aalimnetwork/msg00809.html+allah+reincarnation&hl=en&gl=au&ct=clnk&cd=4)

OUTLINE:
Reincarnation is impossible because:
a) Quran refutes its possibility e.g. 2:28
b) Hadith condemns the belief
c) It is a logically impossible phenomenon

A) Quranic Refutation
You were correct in saying that Islam does not believe in
reincarnation. The Holy Qur'an implicitly informs us that there is
no reincarnation. We quote two verses below for your information:

(a) Chapter 23, Verses 99 & 100: Until when death comes to one
of them, he says: My Lord, return me (into the world); that I may
do good which I have left undone. By no means! It is but a word
he speaks; and after them shall be a Barzakh (phase of life between
this world and the Next) until the day they shall be raised (again).
This verse informs us that there is no return to the material world
for the evil doer, and hence he cannot come in the form of any
being back to the earth.

(b)Baqara:28 "How can you deny God while you were lifeless
(before birth); He then granted you life (birth into the world);
thereafter He causes you to die (by transferring your soul to
Barzakh); then He will bring you back to life (on Resurrection)
after which you shall (ultimately) return back unto Him"
This verse asserts the forward direction of the soul's journey
from the world to the Barzakh to the Hereafter and eventually to
God with no possibility of return in any form of incarnation.

S.A.M.

01-22-07, 05:06 AM

S.A.M.

01-22-07, 05:13 AM

Light, what do you think of this?

But Tariq and other critics seem to be confusing reincarnation with transmigration of souls, which are not necessarily the same concepts. He goes on: "The theory of transmigration of souls popularly known as avagaman or punarjanam is non-existent even in the Hindu scriptures proclaimed as the word of God by them. Following are the declarations of two well-renowned scholars of Hindu philosophy. The rishis [seers] of the Vedic era were not aware of punarjanam (Rahul Sankrityayan, Darshan Digdarshan, Kitab Mahal Allahabad, 1992, page 388.

"In the ancient Indian literature, Chandogya [author of an Upanishad] was the first to talk of punarjanam ie besides parloka [the world hereafter] a being takes birth in this loka [this world] also according to deeds. (ibid P.403) There are dozens of Koran-like descriptions of heaven in Vedas, but at no place do the Vedas talk of humans taking rebirth in inferior moulds according to deeds. Much later, the philosophers of the Upanishads presented the idea of transmigration of souls."

Thus the debate goes on. One thing, however, is certain: most of the greatest saints Islam has produced believed in reincarnation and it does constitute a part of many Muslims' belief system. This is primarily caused by a reluctance on the part of many Muslims to believe that God will merely reward or punish human beings on the basis of a lifetime in which they may not have received the guidance necessary to improve their conduct. That God will just be reconciled to their being sent to an eternal life in heaven or hell withouttheir being given another chance to improve themselves becomes a proposition difficult to believe.

See this article:
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/EL25Aa02.html

lightgigantic

01-22-07, 05:15 AM

see my edit.

see also this:
http://www.adishakti.org/_/reincarnation_in_islam.htm

do you have any idea what he is exactly talking about here???

But Tariq and other critics seem to be confusing reincarnation with transmigration of souls, which are not necessarily the same concepts. He goes on: "The theory of transmigration of souls popularly known as avagaman or punarjanam is non-existent even in the Hindu scriptures proclaimed as the word of God by them. Following are the declarations of two well-renowned scholars of Hindu philosophy. The rishis [seers] of the Vedic era were not aware of punarjanam (Rahul Sankrityayan, Darshan Digdarshan, Kitab Mahal Allahabad, 1992, page 388.

S.A.M.

01-22-07, 05:17 AM

do you have any idea what he is exactly talking about here???

Nope, thats why I asked you. Is it a Vedic concept?

S.A.M.

01-22-07, 05:20 AM

[23:99] When death comes to one of them, he says, "My Lord, send me back.

[23:100] "I will then work righteousness in everything I left." Not true. This is a false claim that he makes. A barrier will separate his soul from this world until resurrection.

[2:28] How can you disbelieve in GOD when you were dead and He gave you life, then He puts you to death, then He brings you back to life, then to Him you ultimately return?

Slightly different interpretation here.

lightgigantic

01-22-07, 05:21 AM

putting aside their understandings of the chronology of the vedas, i would also contend this

"In the ancient Indian literature, Chandogya [author of an Upanishad] was the first to talk of punarjanam ie besides parloka [the world hereafter] a being takes birth in this loka [this world] also according to deeds. (ibid P.403) There are dozens of Koran-like descriptions of heaven in Vedas, but at no place do the Vedas talk of humans taking rebirth in inferior moulds according to deeds. Much later, the philosophers of the Upanishads presented the idea of transmigration of souls."
there are stacks of scriptural eg.'s of living entities receiving inferior moulds (lower station in the universe/society/species) - in fact they are so common place in the vedas that I think he may be talking about something else again (either that or he has never read much of the vedas ....)

S.A.M.

01-22-07, 05:24 AM

putting aside their understandings of the chronology of the vedas, i would also contend this

there are stacks of scriptural eg.'s of living entities receiving inferior moulds (lower station in the universe/society/species) - in fact they are so common place in the vedas that I think he may be talking about something else again (either that or he has never read much of the vedas ....)

Perhaps he is maker finer distinctions between different scriptures? I am not that familiar with details.

S.A.M.

01-22-07, 05:27 AM

This is from the wiki page:

* Reincarnation in human form.

Successive lives on earth, usually including a belief in a passage through the spiritual world or inner planes between death and rebirth. This is the most common use of reincarnation (also called "rebirth"). In many versions, eventually there is the potential to escape the cycle, e.g. by joining God, or achieving enlightenment, some kind of self-realization, a spiritual rebirth, entering a spiritual realm, etc.

* Transmigration of the soul

Beings die, and are returned to this or another existence continually, their form upon return being of a 'higher' or 'lower' kind depending upon the virtue (moral quality) of their present life. This presupposes interchange between human and animal souls, at a minimum; plants and stone may be included, as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reincarnation

Michael

01-22-07, 06:11 PM

S.A.M.

01-23-07, 01:20 AM

Hi Sam,

Thanks, sorry about all the questions and even though you seem to be the only Muslim to answer – at least it’s not a complete waste of time as are many of these flame-charred threads.

I am still trying to clear up a few things:

Ok

#1
OK, the Bahá'í actually do believe Bahá'u'lláh was a Prophet; A Prophet even greater than Mohammed – or so they think anyway. Well then, with this in mind, is their belief incorrect or correct?

Well the Christians think Jesus is divine right? So the messengers are not responsible for what people make of them.

According to Bahá'u'lláh, it was during his imprisonment in the Síyáh-Chál that he received a vision of a Maiden from God, through whom he received his mission as a Messenger of God and as the One whose coming the Báb had prophesied

Anyway, my position (as a moderate Muslim) is that everyone is entitled to their own interpretation of faith. Ours is not to reason why, etc.

Also,lets suppose the Bahá'í Faith begins to win many many Muslim converts – from within a mostly Islamic country. Assuming you are in a position of influence - What would you do to address the title-wave of Muslim converts into the Bahá'í Faith? Suppose, millions of Muslims are leaving Islam and becoming Bahá'í - what do you do? Applaud their religious enlightenment or discourage Muslims to Bahá'í conversion?

See above.

#2
I’m still not clear. Was Mohammed sinless?

He was a Prophet, so yes, he is considered to be sinless.

#3
Four questions:
A) Did Mohammed personally kill anyone?
B) Did Mohammed order the death of anyone?
C) As the leader, did Mohammed allow the death of people when it was within his power to prevent these deaths?
D) Morally speaking: Is there a difference between ‘A’ ‘B’ or ‘C’?

A. No idea
B. No idea
C. He did not advocate killing people, if thats what you're asking. There is some Hadith about a member of his group killing people during some skirmish and when he heard about it, Mohammed was stricken and asked God that he not be held responsible for it.

# 4
Is pork more or less unhealthy than chicken or beef? Japanese eat pork all day everyday – they live longer than anyone on the planet (I personally suspect that eating fish meat with a mostly vegetarian diet the best). Anyway, I have never read in a medical journal that eating pork is any worse than is eating most any other mammalian meat.
Do you think there is something inherently unhealthy about pork over and above other mammalian meat? If so why?

Its essential to cook pork really well to get rid of parasites (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9501363&dopt=Abstract) it is commonly associated with, e.g. trichinosis (http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dpd/parasites/trichinosis/factsht_trichinosis.htm) and toxoplasmosis (http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/livestock/swine/facts/04-055.htm)

Pigs also share some viral infections (http://www.cvm.uiuc.edu/ope/enotes/showarticle.cfm?id=180) with humans, so people are more likely (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9329109&dopt=Abstract) to get exposure (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=564162&query_hl=3&itool=pubmed_docsum) on eating pork.

Some diseases are exclusive to non-Muslims:
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1125409

#6
To be clear, there is only one reality? Anyone who thinks there is more than one God (or that there is no God) is incorrect in their beleif?

See above

#7
The Bible is the inerrant Word of God or has, in some manner, error?

The Bible is the inerrant word of God. Is it still inerrant?
Who knows?

#8
Yes or no, polytheists are correct or incorrect in their belief?

If they are Muslims they are.

If they are not Muslims, its really none of my concern what they believe.

#9
The Qur’an is or is not ‘perfect’?

Did I miss something here?
Its a perfect guide for living.

#11
While not a Buddhists, I was under the impression that the basic underlying belief in Buddhism is that a plane of reality, outside of the Karma Cycle, exists. This reality is above the Gods (above Allah) and it is a reality that you may one day reach. There may be many Gods, Allah may be one of them, you may reach a higher state of consciousness than Allah.

Buddhism can be religious or merely spiritual.

Not ‘just for Muslims’ but in ‘reality (that is, the real world as you know it): Is this belief correct?

In a mixed world, any one religion dominating would have the same effect as any one group dominating, others would be assigned a minority status.

#12
To be clear:
Is it correct or incorrect behavior to destroy Idols that people worship as Gods?

Incorrect, of course. One is only responsible for one's own faith, no one elses.

#13
I think the Patriot Act sucks arse! I am also willing to live with f*ck-up Laws like it if my society can learn from these mistakes and become better for it. As I understand - the Patriot Act as it stands will not be renewed by the new Congress?

The very fact that it can be written and passed speaks volumes.

So with this in mind I was unclear:
A society ran by Shiara Law is better than one ran by any single set of Secular laws?

Sharia is no different from other laws. Laws are selected and applied based on the government in power and can be as liberal or as conservative as the government applying it. In a democratoc set up, Sharia can be useful, not much different from secular laws.

# Is this correct: Summary so Far:

- Islam is the best religion.
- In an ‘Ideal’ world everyone would be Muslim.
- If ‘true’ Islam is followed the society will be a perfect one.
- A special tax for non-Muslims is good.
- Muslims are NOT rewarded in the afterlife for Martyrdom.
- Homosexuality is perfectly fine within Islam.
- Reincarnation is not true and does not happen.

Yup. Just to clarify, there is also a "special tax" on Muslims from which non-Muslims are exempt, so its not a special tax, so much as reduced tax used for different purposes. This can be emphasised by the fact that all Muslims continue to pay their religious dues (zakat) in addition to government taxes, regardless of whether they are in a Muslim or non-Muslim country.

IceAgeCivilizations

01-23-07, 03:34 PM

A mere human cannot be sinless, only the One who claims to be the Son of God could be sinless, and after reading about Muhammed's antics, he clearly was not sinless anyway.

IceAgeCivilizations

01-23-07, 03:36 PM

"He (Muhammed) did not advocate killing people," is that a joke Sam?

IceAgeCivilizations

01-23-07, 03:51 PM

Hey Sam, did Muhammed advocate Muslim theocracies wherever they could be established?

Michael

01-23-07, 05:03 PM

So would this be a correct summary so far:

- Islam is the best religion.
- In an ‘Ideal’ world everyone would be Muslim.
- If ‘true’ Islam is followed the society will be a perfect one.
- A specific tax for non-Muslims is good.
- A specific tax for Muslims is good.
- Muslims are NOT rewarded in the afterlife for Martyrdom.
- Homosexuality is NOT a sin and is perfectly fine within Islam.
- Reincarnation is not true and does not happen.
- The Bahá'í faith is incorrect, Bahá'u'lláh was not a Prophet (perhaps a good teacher).
- The Xian faith is incorrect; Jesus was not the Christ (but was a Prophet).
- Religiously, it is acceptable for anyone to believe anything they like.
- All Abrahamic Prophets (including Mohammed) were sinless.
- Mohammed never advocated killing anyone under any circumstances at all. Never.
- To kill a human is a sin.
- If pork is infected then don’t eat it, if not and it is clean then it is perfectly fine to eat as an everyday meal.
- Hindus religious belief is in some manner incorrect.
- Buddhist religious belief is in some manner incorrect.
- It is a sin to destroy other people’s religious idols.
- Sharia Law is no different than Secular Law.

Does this seem right?

Michael

spidergoat

01-23-07, 05:27 PM

In my view, the only difference between the average member of an organized religion and a fundamentalist is that fundamentalists really believe it.

SnakeLord

01-23-07, 06:11 PM

Its not healthy

Can you support the claim and show how pork is unhealthy?

S.A.M.

01-23-07, 07:32 PM

IceAgeCivilizations

01-23-07, 07:35 PM

And if they refuse to become Muslims, the Muslims are free to kill them, nice "evangelism," faith by the sword, swell.

S.A.M.

01-23-07, 07:41 PM

And if they refuse to become Muslims, the Muslims are free to kill them, nice "evangelism," faith by the sword, swell.

"God best knows (the value of) what you do."

IceAgeCivilizations

01-23-07, 07:45 PM

The God of the Bible says nothing about evangelism by the sword, but Allah does, so Allah, for this and many other reasons, cannot be the God of the Bible. (Remember, Allah was 1 of 360 pre Islamic Arab gods.)

S.A.M.

01-23-07, 07:47 PM

IceAgeCivilizations

01-23-07, 07:48 PM

Are you speaking of Allah, Sam?

Michael

01-23-07, 11:44 PM

IceAgeCivilizations,

How come you haven't posted anything on the identical Christian thread but post to the Muslim thread?

:bugeye:
Michael

Michael

01-23-07, 11:47 PM

One cannot say that a faith is correct or incorrect. Faith (iman) is the most important part of a religion and it is not for us to decide who is right or wrong.
In this particular thread, I'm not so much interested in 'faith' per say. I want to focus on the underlying percepts of the Muslim beliefs.

With that in mind, would the above list be correct thus far?

Thanks,
Michael

SnakeLord

01-24-07, 12:16 AM

I'll take that as a no.

S.A.M.

01-24-07, 12:46 AM

I'll take that as a no.

You can take it any way (http://www.organicconsumers.org/toxic/porkfilth.cfm) you like. :)

S.A.M.

01-24-07, 12:49 AM

In this particular thread, I'm not so much interested in 'faith' per say. I want to focus on the underlying percepts of the Muslim beliefs.

With that in mind, would the above list be correct thus far?

Thanks,
Michael

I thought you wanted to know how moderate Muslims think?

You can't exclude anything ad hoc :)

Michael

01-24-07, 05:27 PM

I thought you wanted to know how moderate Muslims think?I do – But I would also like to make a list of agreed to tenets. There is nothing ‘wrong’ with simply saying: “Atheism is incorrect, anyone who thinks there is/are no God/s is simply not correct in this belief. I, as a moderate Muslim, believe there is a single God.”

Then I go over to my list and write.
1) There is one God
2) There are not Multiple Gods.
3) Atheists are incorrect in their belief there is not a God (or, should I say, lack there of).
4) Polytheists are incorrect in their beliefs of multiple Gods.

And go from there.

Do you think this is OK?
Michael

PS: I went to the Opera last night :)
The Marriage of Figaro (http://www.sydneyoperahouse.com/sections/whats_on/boxoffice/event_details.asp?EventID=1953&sm=1&ss=1)
http://www.affiliate.viator.com/graphicslib/2554/SITours/figaro.jpg

On there way the taxi driver had either a CD or a radio station with an Imam giving what I suspect was a sermon. In the sermon the Imam said, in English obviously (which seemed odd as the driver spoke with an accent) anyway… the Imam said infidel unbelievers (or was it non-believers?) will burn in “Hell Fire” .. bla bla bla…

So: My question: Will I as a disbeliever, non-believer, unbeliever, infidel et.al. burn in Hell Fire? Let’s say; I in my own personal and well thought-out conclusion deny there is an Allah and (this is important) even if there were, I still refuse to worship or submit to it and it can go jump in a lake and eat fish ;)

So? With your understanding of Islam.
1) Will I burn in Hell Fire?
2) Do people burn in Hell Fire?
3) If so whom?
4) Why?
5) Does it seem an all loving thing to do, burn people in Hell Fire?

Michael

01-24-07, 05:31 PM

spidergoat

01-24-07, 05:32 PM

It's a fire of love, evidently. Yes, you will burn. Furthermore, as a disbeliever, it is permissible to burn you prematurely.

Michael

01-24-07, 05:33 PM

RE RE Pork,

To make sure my list is correct. If the pork is perfectly clean is it OK to eat pork everyday? Japanese eat pork all the time, probably for some its like everyday (ramen noodles). They are the longest lived people on the planet - I think we can safely say eating pork does not increase you chances of getting sick over that of chicken, beef, lamb, camel, etc...

spidergoat

01-24-07, 05:41 PM

The bible was written before refrigeration and anti-biotics. There might have been a good reason for the Jews and Muslims to prohibit pork consumption (as well as shellfish).

S.A.M.

01-24-07, 06:30 PM

I do – But I would also like to make a list of agreed to tenets. There is nothing ‘wrong’ with simply saying: “Atheism is incorrect, anyone who thinks there is/are no God/s is simply not correct in this belief. I, as a moderate Muslim, believe there is a single God.”

Then I go over to my list and write.
1) There is one God
2) There are not Multiple Gods.
3) Atheists are incorrect in their belief there is not a God (or, should I say, lack there of).
4) Polytheists are incorrect in their beliefs of multiple Gods.

And go from there.

Do you think this is OK?
Michael

Frankly there are no agreed to tenets, so I can only give my point of view, which is that everyone is free to interpret their faith in the way that suits them best. Who knows why people believe the way they do?

PS: I went to the Opera last night :)
The Marriage of Figaro (http://www.sydneyoperahouse.com/sections/whats_on/boxoffice/event_details.asp?EventID=1953&sm=1&ss=1)

Sounds like fun

On there way the taxi driver had either a CD or a radio station with an Imam giving what I suspect was a sermon. In the sermon the Imam said, in English obviously (which seemed odd as the driver spoke with an accent) anyway… the Imam said infidel unbelievers (or was it non-believers?) will burn in “Hell Fire” .. bla bla bla…

So: My question: Will I as a disbeliever, non-believer, unbeliever, infidel et.al. burn in Hell Fire? Let’s say; I in my own personal and well thought-out conclusion deny there is an Allah and (this is important) even if there were, I still refuse to worship or submit to it and it can go jump in a lake and eat fish ;)

So? With your understanding of Islam.
1) Will I burn in Hell Fire?
2) Do people burn in Hell Fire?
3) If so whom?
4) Why?
5) Does it seem an all loving thing to do, burn people in Hell Fire?

What is Hell Fire?
Do you know?

IceAgeCivilizations

01-24-07, 06:32 PM

Great line spidergoat, "... burn you prematurely."

S.A.M.

01-24-07, 06:45 PM

RE: Pork

While it is true some pork can carry disease that can infect humans, so does chicken, lamb, cow and especially (and more so than any other) other primates like ape and monkey.

1) Acording to God is it OK to eat a primate, say Ape or Monkey? Is there any reason why or why not?
2) According to God is it OK to eat pork? Is there any reason why or why not?
3) According to God is there anything wrong with eating another human? Is there any reason why or why not?

Thanks
Michael

I think most Muslims follow the same food laws as Judaism, eating only ruminants and domestic fowl. Except that for us shellfish is makruh (not forbidden, but to be avoided as far as possible).

Pork is a forbidden food, eaten only when faced with no other choice.

Here is something interesting, though not conclusive:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2858627&dopt=Abstract

S.A.M.

01-24-07, 06:49 PM

Michael

01-24-07, 07:07 PM

Frankly there are no agreed to tenets, so I can only give my point of view, which is that everyone is free to interpret their faith in the way that suits them best. Who knows why people believe the way they do?Of course, everything is as such. But, you consider yourself 'Muslim' so we must assume that your beliefs are somewhat shaped by Islamic ideology and worldview.

As to hellfire? IMHO it’s something made-up to scare the naïve into submitting to a God. Once they are sufficiently scared enough they can be controlled. *poof* Patriot Act! Anyway, if you prefer replace hellfire with “some sort of punishment”, if you will, for not thinking as this God would have you think.

So?
Do you believe that people will be judged and, some, punished by God?

Michael

S.A.M.

01-24-07, 07:09 PM

Of course, everything is as such. But, you consider yourself 'Muslim' so we must assume that your beliefs are somewhat shaped by Islamic ideology and worldview.

As to hellfire? IMHO it’s something made-up to scare the naïve into submitting to a God. Once they are sufficiently scared enough they can be controlled. *poof* Patriot Act! Anyway, if you prefer replace hellfire with “some sort of punishment”, if you will, for not thinking as this God would have you think.

So?
Do you believe that people will be judged and, some, punished by God?

Michael

Who knows? Like you say, it may be a way to keep impressionable people in line.

Parents do it all the time.:p

Michael

01-24-07, 07:10 PM

I think most Muslims follow the same food laws as Judaism, eating only ruminants and domestic fowl. Except that for us shellfish is makruh (not forbidden, but to be avoided as far as possible).According to God, is it ok for Muslims eat Monkeys and Apes?

Also, I don't really know much about Jewish food-law, why doesn't God allow you to eat pork?

S.A.M.

01-24-07, 07:13 PM

According to God, is it ok for Muslims eat Monkeys and Apes?

Also, I don't really know much about Jewish food-law, why doesn't God allow you to eat pork?

I don't think monkeys and apes are either ruminants or domestic fowl (or fish!)

Pork is considered an unclean meat, like blood and carcass (the other forbidden foods)

Michael

01-24-07, 07:13 PM

Have the Japanese always eaten pork? Didn't they used to be Buddhists?Japanese have traditionally been Shinto. However, many are Buddhist. That said, for the most part most Japanese are both Shinto and Buddhist.

The Shinto Shrine provides a place of rest and meditation for Buddhist and a Buddhist Temple may provide a Shrine to the local Shinto Gods. Or so it seemed when I was in Japan. Eating pork is about as common as eating rice in Japan, which is to say, very very common!

Michael

S.A.M.

01-24-07, 07:15 PM

Japanese have traditionally been Shinto. However, many are Buddhist. That said, for the most part most Japanese are both Shinto and Buddhist.

The Shinto Shrine provides a place of rest and meditation for Buddhist and a Buddhist Temple may provide a Shrine to the local Shinto Gods. Or so it seemed when I was in Japan. Eating pork is about as common as eating rice in Japan, which is to say, very very common!

Michael

I believe meat eating is not traditional in the Japanese diet, but I'll check and make sure. Nowadays of course, everyone eats everything.

edit:

A unique feature of Japanese dietary history has been the country’s various taboos on meat eating. The first recorded decree prohibiting the eating of cattle, horses, dogs, monkeys, and chickens was issued by Emperor Temmu in A.D. 675. Similar decrees, based on the Buddhist prohibition of killing, were issued repeatedly by emperors during the eighth and ninth centuries. The number of regulated meats increased to the point that all mammals were included except whales, which, given their marine habitat, were categorized as fish.

The taboo against the consumption of animal flesh developed further when the Japanese aboriginal religion, Shinto¯, adopted a philosophy similar to that of the Buddhists. This did not mean, however, that meat eating was totally banned in Japan. Professional hunters in mountain regions ate game (especially deer and wild boar), and it was not uncommon for hunted bird meat to be consumed. However, a lack of animal breeding for meat kept its consumption very low. Indeed, it was only during the fifteenth century and its aftermath that the tradition of eating both the meat and eggs of domestic fowl was revived. Fowls, until then, had been regarded in Shinto¯ as God’s sacred messengers and were reared to announce the dawn rather than as a mere food resource.

http://www.cambridge.org/us/books/kiple/japan.htm

Michael

01-24-07, 07:17 PM

I don't think monkeys and apes are either ruminants or domestic fowl (or fish!)In your opinion which is worse to eat: a monkey or pork?

You know, many Africans live primarily on cow's blood - it is perfectly fine to eat. Many drink it warm, collected from the neck and stired to thicken.

yum yum
:)
Michael

S.A.M.

01-24-07, 07:21 PM

In your opinion which is worse to eat: a monkey or pork?

You know, many Africans live primarily on cow's blood - it is perfectly fine to eat. Many drink it warm, collected from the neck and stired to thicken.

yum yum
:)
Michael

I'll avoid both, thanks!

There are people in India (Hindus mostly) who collect during Eid ul Zuha (the festival when Muslims sacrifice goats,sheep, cows) to collect the blood for consumption.

Michael

01-24-07, 07:40 PM

So why is it, do you think, that God specifically forbids pork to be eaten but not monkey?

You don't suppose it was simply an Arab/Jewish tradition and because Arabs/Jews never had a tradition of eating nor not eating monkey that their religious book simply didn't mention it? If God were real and really concerned with the wellbeing of all of his creations - it seems IMHO that preventing monkey consumption would be #1 on the list, as monkeys and humans can very easily share diseases. And do, much more so than human and pig.

Why not a mention of the dangers of rat? The Black Plague killed 75 million people.
Why allow the consumption of “domestic fowl”, the Spanish Flu from poultry (i.e. chicken) 100 million people.

It seems odd don’t you think? It’s as if someone just made it all up and put it in some book a thousand years ago ... don’t eat pork ... eat fowl …. monkey.. ehh??? whay not sure do it...
:)

What do you think?

Michael

PS:
Regardless of traditional diet, I think we can agree that modern Japanese eat pork and they are very healthy?

Michael

01-24-07, 07:42 PM

Also, will God punish some people in the afterlife? If so how so? For how long? What sort of people? As an Atheist do you suppose I will be punished? Isn't it funny, as in odd, to punish another being for not thinking the thought you'd prefer them to think? It seems, as these forums can attest, more a primitive human notion than a Godly one?

S.A.M.

01-24-07, 07:44 PM

S.A.M.

01-24-07, 07:46 PM

Michael

01-24-07, 08:05 PM

Did you miss the part where lawful foods included only ruminants and domestic fowl? So to be correct: The answer is it is against Gods wishes that humans eat Monkey as well as Pork?

But pork is not a ruminant - so why would God make a special mention of pork and not a mention to Monkey? Lots of humans eat Monkey after all. And yes, Monkey is eaten by many Muslims and non-Muslims alike. Skinned monkey can be bought for $3 in Indonesia. I’m 100% positive that some Muslims living in Africa eat Monkey as it is customary to do so.

Why? Other than being a non- ruminant is there something inherently wrong with eating monkey? Is it sinful?

(don’t get me wrong I don’t eat monkey! It just a line of reasoning)

Something interesting from wiki (could be crap):
“Paul Burrell, the former butler of Princess Diana, tells he was served monkey brains on banana leaves and coconut palms when visiting Saudi Arabia.[2]”

Since you don't believe in it, there's no reason it should consume your thoughts is there?Sam, I'm not being facetious and it’s OK if you answer yes Michael you're gonna burn baby burn :) Most people who believe in One God usually also believe there is a place where non-believers will be rewarded with pain in the afterlife for their insolence.

I think it’s odd but so what? That doesn’t take away the reality of the situation or of the belief.

So? With this in mind and if its OK with you: Does God punish some people in the afterlife?
If so who?
Do you know (or have any idea) of how so?

Thanks :)
Michael

Michael

01-24-07, 09:55 PM

PPS. Effects of diet are cumulative and show up after several generations.Really?!?! I didn't know that? How would food affect the next generation? Is the genome or proteome affected?

That's pretty interesting - I wonder if my fellow Americans will be producing piglet-kids for generations to come - by the Gods are Americans fat!

Well, as they say, keep em lean and keep em keen ;)

(actually I made that up just now .. hehe .. :p

Michael II

S.A.M.

01-25-07, 01:43 AM

Really?!?! I didn't know that? How would food affect the next generation? Is the genome or proteome affected?

That's pretty interesting - I wonder if my fellow Americans will be producing piglet-kids for generations to come - by the Gods are Americans fat!

Well, as they say, keep em lean and keep em keen ;)

(actually I made that up just now .. hehe .. :p

Michael II

Its called genomic imprinting.

Epigenetic mechanisms are at the base of genomic imprinting, a phenomenon that was discovered in the 1980s in mouse embryos made to carry only 1 set of parental chromosomes. Researchers found that genes functioned differently depending on the parent from which they derived.[4,5] For example, genes that are responsible for normal embryonic development are derived from the mother, whereas genes important for normal placental development are derived from the father.

DNA methylation was then identified as a key mechanism of imprinting, leading to the differential expression of genes derived from one or the other parent, through differential methylation of genes in eggs and sperm.

The phenomenon of genetic imprinting has a substantial effect on human genetic diseases, as it may result in increased disease susceptibility when a recessive, "protective" allele is inactivated through mutation(s). For instance, the first 2 endogenous, imprinted genes described were insulin growth factor 2 (IGF2)[6] (maternally silenced) and M6P/IGF2R[7] (paternally silenced). Of note, genomic imprinting is species- and tissue-dependent.

Is fetal nutrition linked to epigenetic mechanisms and imprinting? Extensive epidemiologic data link prenatal and early postnatal nutrition to diseases in the adult stage, such as cardiovascular disease, type 2 diabetes, obesity, and cancer. Studies in animal models appear to confirm these data.[8-12]
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/484120_3

S.A.M.

01-25-07, 01:54 AM

So to be correct: The answer is it is against Gods wishes that humans eat Monkey as well as Pork?

But pork is not a ruminant - so why would God make a special mention of pork and not a mention to Monkey? Lots of humans eat Monkey after all. And yes, Monkey is eaten by many Muslims and non-Muslims alike. Skinned monkey can be bought for $3 in Indonesia. I’m 100% positive that some Muslims living in Africa eat Monkey as it is customary to do so.

Why? Other than being a non- ruminant is there something inherently wrong with eating monkey? Is it sinful?

Only personal disgust then.
Anyway, I do know of Muslims who eat pork so its not a black and white scenario. Ultimately what people follow in religion will depend to a greater extent on their social environment rather than their religious teachings.

Sam, I'm not being facetious and it’s OK if you answer yes Michael you're gonna burn baby burn :) Most people who believe in One God usually also believe there is a place where non-believers will be rewarded with pain in the afterlife for their insolence.

I think it’s odd but so what? That doesn’t take away the reality of the situation or of the belief.

I think the important word there is belief.
The reality of belief is that if you believe you can/can't you are right.
If you believe you are sick, are you healthy? And vice versa?
So, do you believe? If you don't, its immaterial and to me, a specious mental exercise.

So? With this in mind and if its OK with you: Does God punish some people in the afterlife?
If so who?
Do you know (or have any idea) of how so?

I guess I'd have to say I don't know. May be a good mental exercise but what's the point?

I mean do people avoid sinning more out of fear of Hell or because they are afraid of legal consequences? Are there religious people in prison? Are there atheists who are killers/liars/cheaters?

Does religion make one a better person? Does atheism?

SnakeLord

01-25-07, 10:44 AM

You can take it any way you like.

Perhaps, but given that you have failed to support your claim that pork is unhealthy I don't have a choice in the matter. The only sensible way to take it is that you can't.

Word of advice: Don't make claims if you can't suppport them. True, that would put an end to this entire forum subsection, but such is life..

S.A.M.

01-25-07, 11:51 AM

Perhaps, but given that you have failed to support your claim that pork is unhealthy I don't have a choice in the matter. The only sensible way to take it is that you can't.

Word of advice: Don't make claims if you can't suppport them. True, that would put an end to this entire forum subsection, but such is life..

Its not a claim, its a belief. You're welcome not to believe it.:rolleyes:
I'm not going to make claims based on epidemiologic data (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2858627&dopt=Abstract), but I'm not going to pretend it does not exist (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=17074279&query_hl=16&itool=pubmed_DocSum) either.

S.A.M.

01-25-07, 12:04 PM

LiveInFaith

01-25-07, 12:06 PM

food related in qur'an (allowed-halal- and prohibited-haram- ):

- prohibited pork (and others ) : 2:173, 5:3, 6:145, 16:115
- seafood (allowed) : 5:96, 16:14, 35:12
- sharing food : 5:5
- horse is for riding (so not for food?) : 16:8
- eat anything when not prohibited : 6:119
- When already allowed, don't self-prohibit : 3:93, 5:87, 5:103, 6:138, 6:139, 6:140, 6:143, 6:144, 7:32, 10:59, 16:35, 16:116, 66:1 (general, not specifically for food, just regarding 'halal' - allowed - and 'haram' - prohobited)
- Not too much (excessive - for food and others) : 6:141, 7:31
- food are various : 13:4
- how to kill animal for food :6:118, 6:119; 22:36

Michael

01-25-07, 07:21 PM

Its not a claim, its a belief. You're welcome not to believe it.:rolleyes:
I'm not going to make claims based on epidemiologic data (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2858627&dopt=Abstract), but I'm not going to pretend it does not exist (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=17074279&query_hl=16&itool=pubmed_DocSum) either.
Well , that's why I stipulated "clean" pork. Lets face it, eating chicken with H1N1 (killed >100 million people) would be a hell of a lot worse than eating pork and eating beef with BSE may also be a hell of a lot worse. The correlation study you posted is just that, a correlation. And it's a 20 year old study on stats from the 1960s, it was written on a total of 1.5 pages and never followed up on in 25 years! It's in the Lancet, the MD's can publish too journal, and is probably crap. :)

An increase in ice cream sales in NY is correlated with an increase in murders in NY. Surely it's obvious ice cream sales does not affect murder rate! But they is a statistically significant correlate (the related factor is warm weather).

I guess I'd have to say I don't know. May be a good mental exercise but what's the point?

I mean do people avoid sinning more out of fear of Hell or because they are afraid of legal consequences? Are there religious people in prison? Are there atheists who are killers/liars/cheaters?

Does religion make one a better person? Does atheism?It's OK to not know.

But this thread isn't about the question: Does religion make people a better person? It's what does a Moderate Muslim think in regards to A B C D .... Which I really want to know the answers too. You see, to me, I would assume a fundamental Muslim would say (with ease) yes a there is punishment for some people in the afterlife and reward s for others. I would also assume that a fundamental Muslim would say with ease, yes it is wrong to eat pork and as for Monkey ... (maybe ok maybe not?)

Japan:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=17135492&query_hl=16&itool=pubmed_DocSumYeah, I think decreasing meat intake it defintaley a hgealthy choice. Actually, I don’t really eat much meat – I grew up pretty much a fishtarian.

Michael

Michael

01-25-07, 07:23 PM

Michael

01-25-07, 07:24 PM

So would this be a correct summary so far:

- Islam is the best religion.
- In an ‘Ideal’ world everyone would be Muslim.
- If ‘true’ Islam is followed the society will be a perfect one.
- Muslims are NOT rewarded in the afterlife for Martyrdom.
- Homosexuality is NOT a sin and is perfectly fine within Islam.
- Reincarnation is not true and does not happen.
- The Bahá'í faith is incorrect, Bahá'u'lláh was not a Prophet (perhaps a good teacher).
- The Xian faith is incorrect; Jesus was not the Christ (but was a Prophet).
- Religiously, it is acceptable for anyone to believe anything they like.
- All Abrahamic Prophets (including Mohammed) were sinless.
- Mohammed never advocated killing anyone under any circumstances at all. Never.
- To kill a human is a sin.
- Hindus religious belief is in some manner incorrect.
- Buddhist religious belief is in some manner incorrect.
- It is a sin to destroy other people’s religious idols.
- Sharia Law is no different than Secular Law.

- Distinguishing non-Muslims from Muslims in regards to taxation is good.

- The Qur’an is not crystal clear as to if eating pork is OK or not.
- The Qur’an is not crystal clear as to if eating Monkey is OK or not.
- The Qur’an is not crystal clear as to if some people will be punished in the after life.
- The Qur’an is not crystal clear as to what Hell-Fire is, nor if it should even exist.

Does this seem right so far?

Michael

Michael

01-25-07, 09:11 PM

SnakeLord

01-26-07, 12:25 AM

Its not a claim, its a belief. You're welcome not to believe it.

That's not the way I do things. I judge claims based upon their evidence.

To ensure you don't make claims but just state evidence-less beliefs kindly put "I believe.." at the beginning of your statement.

S.A.M.

01-26-07, 02:14 AM

PS: Reza, my ex-Muslim turned atheist buddy (yes way before he met me) said he absolutely thought pork was so disgusting to eat. It’d be better to eat crap. Of course he was raised in Iran until the age of 19 (he’s 36 now). Then he moved to the East and then to AU and now he LOVES to eat pork! Loves it.
“I’m addicted to pork! See, I love it man” (those were his actual words:)

Converts are usually the most extreme practitioners, wouldn't you say?:p

I thin it would be intersting to look at the prevalence of flu epidemics in areas where there is pork consumption vs areas where there is not.

I do know that people who work with pigs are recommended to get flu shots.

Swine flu is believed to have killed several million people in the 1900s (around 20 million?)

Pigs have an interesting physiology:
http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/fluviruses.htm

Pigs can be infected with both human and avian influenza viruses in addition to swine influenza viruses. Infected pigs get symptoms similar to humans, such as cough, fever, and runny nose. Because pigs are susceptible to avian, human and swine influenza viruses, they potentially may be infected with influenza viruses from different species (e.g., ducks and humans) at the same time. If this happens, it is possible for the genes of these viruses to mix and create a new virus. For example, if a pig were infected with a human influenza virus and an avian influenza virus at the same time, the viruses could mix (reassort) and produce a new virus that had most of the genes from the human virus, but a hemagglutinin and/or neuraminidase from the avian virus. The resulting new virus would likely be able to infect humans and spread from person to person, but it would have surface proteins (hemagglutinin and/or neuraminidase) not previously seen in influenza viruses that infect humans. This type of major change in the influenza A viruses is known as antigenic shift. Antigenic shift results when a new influenza A subtype to which most people have little or no immune protection infects humans. If this new virus causes illness in people and can be transmitted easily from person to person, an influenza pandemic can occur.

S.A.M.

01-26-07, 02:15 AM

So would this be a correct summary so far:

- Islam is the best religion.
- In an ‘Ideal’ world everyone would be Muslim.
- If ‘true’ Islam is followed the society will be a perfect one.
- Muslims are NOT rewarded in the afterlife for Martyrdom.
- Homosexuality is NOT a sin and is perfectly fine within Islam.
- Reincarnation is not true and does not happen.
- The Bahá'í faith is incorrect, Bahá'u'lláh was not a Prophet (perhaps a good teacher).
- The Xian faith is incorrect; Jesus was not the Christ (but was a Prophet).
- Religiously, it is acceptable for anyone to believe anything they like.
- All Abrahamic Prophets (including Mohammed) were sinless.
- Mohammed never advocated killing anyone under any circumstances at all. Never.
- To kill a human is a sin.
- Hindus religious belief is in some manner incorrect.
- Buddhist religious belief is in some manner incorrect.
- It is a sin to destroy other people’s religious idols.
- Sharia Law is no different than Secular Law.

- Distinguishing non-Muslims from Muslims in regards to taxation is good.

- The Qur’an is not crystal clear as to if eating pork is OK or not.
- The Qur’an is not crystal clear as to if eating Monkey is OK or not.
- The Qur’an is not crystal clear as to if some people will be punished in the after life.
- The Qur’an is not crystal clear as to what Hell-Fire is, nor if it should even exist.

Does this seem right so far?

Michael

I think I've already clarified my opinions here.

You seem bent on putting your own construction on things, so I'm not going to argue anymore.:)

S.A.M.

01-26-07, 02:15 AM

That's not the way I do things. I judge claims based upon their evidence.

To ensure you don't make claims but just state evidence-less beliefs kindly put "I believe.." at the beginning of your statement.

I believe you're an ass.

S.A.M.

01-26-07, 02:31 AM

Hi Sam,

I had some more question, if the above was OK so far?

Do you know if Atheists can go to heaven?

Assuming that the following people reject that Mohammed was a Prophet and that Allah is the One God; Do you know if Buddhists or Hindu will get to go to heaven?

In you opinion, are the Bible and/or the Torah in error in some manner? That is, is there something (anything) that is not perfectly correct about them?

If so, how do you suppose that this came to be? [That is, how did they become corrupted?]
Do you think that Satan could have had a hand in some manner in corrupting the Word of God so that humans would be led astray?

Are males and females equal in ALL things under God?

Of the following, could you order those that you suppose are most closely aligned to the true Islamic belief (leave out any that you don’t know much about). Before you suggested that Wahhabis are incorrect in much of their beleif so I will assume they are near the bottom?

Sunni
Shia
Sufis
Wahhabis
Kahrijites
Ismailis
Zaidis
Fatimids
Nizari
Alawis
Druze

I hope I'm not troubling you too much :o
Take care,
Michael

You can't actually put people into good or bad categories based merely on the sect they came from. Saddam was a Sunni, so was/is? Osama bin Laden. Off hand, I'd say there are good and bad people in all sects of all religions so its not a given that following a certain ideology makes you a better person.

Muslims don't argue over religious differences (at least the clerics and scholars don't) among themselves, because no one can claim to have the final word on the right way to practice belief. Even all Christians and Jews are not same.

The Bible and the Torah are not the ones who decide what people will do, its the people who ultimately will decide. There are atheists who think some people are better/worse than others too.

Males and females are equal partners. That means they complement each other. This is completely separate from what they are able to do should have the freedom to choose to do if they wish. Its not written in the Quran anywhere that women should not benefit from education or not be permitted to work. The Prophet's wife Khadeja was herself an educated businesswoman whom he consulted on his matters.

As for atheists, there is a verse that says, those who believe will believe whereas those who are kafirs will continue to remain so.

Atheists cannot go to heaven. They don't believe in it.

(Q)

01-26-07, 06:46 AM

You can't actually put people into good or bad categories based merely on the sect they came from.

Or country?

As for atheists, there is a verse that says, those who believe will believe whereas those who are kafirs will continue to remain so.

Atheists cannot go to heaven. They don't believe in it.

They can't ride flying purple dragons, either. And it will continue to remain so.

S.A.M.

01-26-07, 06:56 AM

Or country?

Or religion?

They can't ride flying purple dragons, either. And it will continue to remain so.

Well maybe not purple dragons (http://www.majesticmidways.com/images/ridepicts/dragon_lg.jpg)

SnakeLord

01-26-07, 11:14 AM

I believe you're an ass.

Of no worth to anything. My point.

Michael

01-26-07, 05:06 PM

I think I've already clarified my opinions here.

You seem bent on putting your own construction on things, so I'm not going to argue anymore.Hi Sam, I didn't know we were arguing? I did want to make a list of moderate Islamic beliefs. That would of course entail me asking some questions - which somehow led to an argument :(

As for pork, the reason I put it as such was because we seemed to be going round and round. Honestly, you needn’t come up with a scientific reason why pork is not suitable to eat, but just have simply said: As far as I am concerned God doesn’t want humans eating pork.

Done.

Well, I would have liked to continue but really it’s too much. I’m sorry if this somehow came to make you feel boxed-in or belittled in any way. OK, screw the list!

Well, I’m off to have a picnic and enjoy a free Opera in the Domain :)
Wow two Opera’s in one week!!

http://www.evermore.com/azo/99season/turandot.jpg

A Mandarin announces that any prince seeking to marry the Princess Turandot must first answer three riddles. If he fails, he must die. The latest suitor, the Prince of Persia, is to be executed at the moon's rising. In the crowd is Timur, banished King of Tartary, who is reunited with his son, Calaf, whom he thought died in a battle. The Prince of Persia passes on his way to the scaffold and the crowd calls upon the Princess to spare him. Turandot bids that the execution proceed. As the death cry is heard, Calaf, transfixed by the beauty of the Princess, strides towards the gong that announces a new suitor. Turandot's ministers, Ping, Pang and Pong, try to discourage Calaf. Timur and Liù (who is in love with Calaf) also beg him to reconsider, but he strikes the gong and calls Turandot's name. Ping, Pang and Pong lament Turandot's bloody reign, hoping that love will conquer her icy heart and peace will return. They think longingly of their distant country homes, but the noise of the populace gathering to hear Turandot question the new challenger brings them back to reality……

Take care,

Michael

S.A.M.

01-26-07, 06:08 PM

Of no worth to anything. My point.

A pointy ass. How *yawn* worthy.

SnakeLord

01-26-07, 06:26 PM

A pointy ass. How *yawn* worthy.

You could just forego this blithering idiocy and tell me how pork is unhealthy.. Heh, whatever's your poison.

S.A.M.

01-26-07, 06:26 PM

Hi Sam, I didn't know we were arguing? I did want to make a list of moderate Islamic beliefs. That would of course entail me asking some questions - which somehow led to an argument :(

As for pork, the reason I put it as such was because we seemed to be going round and round. Honestly, you needn’t come up with a scientific reason why pork is not suitable to eat, but just have simply said: As far as I am concerned God doesn’t want humans eating pork.

Done.

Well, I would have liked to continue but really it’s too much. I’m sorry if this somehow came to make you feel boxed-in or belittled in any way. OK, screw the list!

Well, I’m off to have a picnic and enjoy a free Opera in the Domain :)
Wow two Opera’s in one week!!

A Mandarin announces that any prince seeking to marry the Princess Turandot must first answer three riddles. If he fails, he must die. The latest suitor, the Prince of Persia, is to be executed at the moon's rising. In the crowd is Timur, banished King of Tartary, who is reunited with his son, Calaf, whom he thought died in a battle. The Prince of Persia passes on his way to the scaffold and the crowd calls upon the Princess to spare him. Turandot bids that the execution proceed. As the death cry is heard, Calaf, transfixed by the beauty of the Princess, strides towards the gong that announces a new suitor. Turandot's ministers, Ping, Pang and Pong, try to discourage Calaf. Timur and Liù (who is in love with Calaf) also beg him to reconsider, but he strikes the gong and calls Turandot's name. Ping, Pang and Pong lament Turandot's bloody reign, hoping that love will conquer her icy heart and peace will return. They think longingly of their distant country homes, but the noise of the populace gathering to hear Turandot question the new challenger brings them back to reality……

Take care,

Michael

Well sorry I could not adjust my opinions to satisfy whatever criteria it is you have in mind. I gave them as I saw them.

Have fun at the opera.

S.A.M.

01-26-07, 06:30 PM

You could just forego this blithering idiocy and tell me how pork is unhealthy.. Heh, whatever's your poison.

Maybe you're verbally challenged, a visual person?

Let me try to oblige. I'll even skip the big words.

http://www.uq.edu.au/_School_Science_Lessons/59Pig09.GIF

http://foodsafetyindia.nic.in/images/Trichinella_LifeCycle.gif

Some interesting habits:

Pigs are most commonly associated with eating not only their own feces, but those of other animals and humans. In parts of the third world, where villager dwellers excrete in the open, pigs are known to eat this excretia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coprophagia

Yummy!

SnakeLord

01-26-07, 06:55 PM

Maybe you're verbally challenged, a visual person?

Ah I see, that's the level you want to drag it down to heh? To answer the question though, either will do. It is safe to say that one of the two certainly beats non-answer.

Ok, kindly take a moment to look at the pictures you have provided.. You will see next to the humans mouth the words: "ingestion of undercooked meat"

So what are you now telling me exactly? That pork is not unhealthy as you claimed but that people should beware of those that cannot cook?

A quality argument Sam and no mistake.

I'm not as nice as you so I wont provide pictures, but it must be stated that chicken when undercooked carries serious risk.. It is indeed the highest single cause of food poisoning in the United Kingdom.

Some 19% of food poisoning come from red meat - "Red meat is also a source of Salmonella and Campylobacter. In addition, Escheria coli O157 (E. coli) is found in the intestines of healthy cows."

I suppose we should now label cows as unhealthy.

Why stop there? Let's add cheese and other dairy products, shellfish, canned foods and hell.. even fruit and veg, ("Fruit and vegetables are susceptible to contamination with Salmonella, Campylobacter, Listeria and SRSVs, through the use of manure containing animal faeces and through contaminated water").

I know, let's just all stop eating. That'll solve the problem.

Anyway, it's been nice.. can you now possibly tell me why pork is unhealthy or would you just prefer to continue with your nonsense?

S.A.M.

01-26-07, 07:22 PM

Ah I see, that's the level you want to drag it down to heh? To answer the question though, either will do. It is safe to say that one of the two certainly beats non-answer.

Ok, kindly take a moment to look at the pictures you have provided.. You will see next to the humans mouth the words: "ingestion of undercooked meat"

So what are you now telling me exactly? That pork is not unhealthy as you claimed but that people should beware of those that cannot cook?

A quality argument Sam and no mistake.

I'm not as nice as you so I wont provide pictures, but it must be stated that chicken when undercooked carries serious risk.. It is indeed the highest single cause of food poisoning in the United Kingdom.

Some 19% of food poisoning come from red meat - "Red meat is also a source of Salmonella and Campylobacter. In addition, Escheria coli O157 (E. coli) is found in the intestines of healthy cows."

I suppose we should now label cows as unhealthy.

Why stop there? Let's add cheese and other dairy products, shellfish, canned foods and hell.. even fruit and veg, ("Fruit and vegetables are susceptible to contamination with Salmonella, Campylobacter, Listeria and SRSVs, through the use of manure containing animal faeces and through contaminated water").

I know, let's just all stop eating. That'll solve the problem.

Anyway, it's been nice.. can you now possibly tell me why pork is unhealthy or would you just prefer to continue with your nonsense?

Guess you missed the significance of the identical nature of the input and output in the first figure.

LiveInFaith

01-26-07, 11:25 PM

Michael,

I want to know what distinguishes a Moderate from a Fundamental Muslim

I consider myself as moderate.

1. Mohammed was the Last Prophet anyone who believes otherwise is wrong.
In the same boat.

2. The Baha’i are sinning by suggesting there was another Prophet.
Any claim as prophet after Muhammad is.

3. Bahá'u'lláh was not a prophet of God.
See no. 2.

4. The Bahá'í Faith is not correct.
If they refer to qur’an, then Muhammad is the last.

5. Mohammed never made a mistake nor ever sinned.
mistake sure he did (verse 80:1 – 80:11 muhammad was warned immediately – when he showed a long face toward a blind man who came to him asking for direction).
Sinned… I guess he was prevented to, by supervision of Gabriel.

6. Mohammed’s life should be held up as the ideal life and his actions emulated.
In the same boat.

7. Mohammed killed non-Believers in war.
I never heard.

8. Sometimes it is correct to kill.
many reasons to do it. For the proper reason, why not.

9. Eating pork is a sin.
Loud and clearly stated in qur’an, no room for interpretation (yet). In the same boat.

10. A person who is martyred will be rewarded in the afterlife.
Same boat.

11. There is only one God and to believe there is more than one is wrong.
same boat.

12. The Xian Bible is flawed in some manner.
no it’s not flawed. It’s just corrupted, written not well attendedly (by jesus himself), and no way to secure its’ original contents.

13. The Torah is flawed in some manner.
Same with 12.

14. Jesus was a just prophet and Xians are wrong to think he was the Christos.
same boat.

15. The square rock in Arabia is special to God.
I guess so, In term of determining a point to symbolize unity.

16. The polytheistic Arabs, pre-Islam, where not correct in their beliefs.
same boat.

17. The Qur’an is perfect.
same boat.

18. The Qur’an is written in pure Arabic.
qur’anic Arabic? No idea.

19. The polytheistic beliefs of Shinto Japanese is not correct.
all polytheistic is against qur’an.

20. The beliefs of Buddhism are in some manner not correct.
considering Gautama came before Muhammad, I consider he was a prophet, sent by same God. Those who followed him and never been touched by the light of qur’an, are fine with me.

21. There is no such thing as reincarnation.
The concept is not reincarnated, but transfer to other nature. Initially from heaven back to heaven (or slipped to hell) through several natures. Those natures are heaven, mothers’ womb, material (our) nature, barzakh (grave), judgement day, heaven/hell.

22. It is correct behavior, under the appropriate conditions, for a male to have 3 female wives.
I haven’t found any suggestion to have 4 wifes, yes that qur’an states there are wife(s). My interpretation (considering there are quite many verses regulating how to treat women), is that men tends to cheat so they should be tightly regulated in treating women. Considering those regulation, I prefer to have only one.

23. Homosexual sex is a sin.
I guess so. God created two genders to be complemented each other, keeping the nature in equilibrium. Homosexual is against nature, ruining equilibrium, it’s a sin. Sexual passion is the same with other passion. Sometimes one has passion to something one is not allowed to/ not belong to one, any passions, and crossing line is a sin.

24. There is an afterlife.
life is ethernal (see no. 21). Our body is only used in mother’s womb and material world.

25. Allah will judge a persons life and may grant them rewards in heaven.
When one accomplished a journey, the arrival point of the journey is the reward itself. Experiencing journey is an enjoyment. One has special way to enjoy the succesfull arrival of one’s journey, when the direction happen to be right. Wrong direction, miserable.

26. Allah will punish some people in the afterlife.
See no. 25, when the journey is toward wrong direction.

27. Islamic belief is better than all other religious beliefs.
This is individual experience. If one has no any idea what islam is, one’s religious belief is fine. He/she will find his successful journey to heaven.

28. A Muslim should never change their religion to Hinduism.
29. A Muslim should never change their religion to Xiantiy.
30. A Muslim should never change their religion to Buddhism.
31. A Muslim should never change their religion to Judaism.

I guess a well educated muslim will not change. But one has own right to choose.

32. The destruction of false idols to prevent idolatry is good.
destruction is bad.

33. The worship of idols is a sin.
same boat.

34. The reason many Islamic countries are in the mess they are in is because they are not practicing the “true” form of Islam.
The rise of middle east culture & civilization was parallel with Islamic rise. Intellectuality was heard and encouraged. The falling of them was because they left the best practiced taught by Muhammad and 4 khulafaurrasyidin. They more toward power and wealth instead of following the samples brought by Muhammad. Dynasty system had never been taught by Muhammad and the 4 companions, there is no inheritance of power. Corruption is the root of the mess. Islam forbid corruption in any case. Corruptors should be had their ‘hand cut’ (the access to the corruption opportunity should be cut). Then the mess will be repaired.

35. It would be better if the World were completely Islamic and every person was Muslim.
Not so. Islamic is different with muslim. Muslim is one who admit the six faith. Islamic is one who practising the teachings of Islam. Doesn’t matter one is muslim or not, if Islamic teachings are practiced properly, I believe the world will be better.

36. Atheism is a sin.
With no explanation of anything, one atheist is not a sin. It’s just ignorance. Denying the supreme power which control the nature is a sin, when the messenger had spread the guide to live in.

37. It is wrong to build Hindu temples in the KSA.
build anything, should be regulated by government.

38. Children should be taught to be Muslim at a very early age.
same boat.

39. An Islamic government is better than a Secular government.
talking Islamic as an adjective, same boat. Doesn’t have to be muslim. In Islam, there are teachings for individuals, and there are teachings for social intercourse. Individual teachings should not mess with social intercourse.

40. The Xian crusades were wrong.
no opinion.

41. The Muslim conquest of Spain and Constantinople were good.
it brought the light of initial renaissance. I agree.

42. A tax on non-Muslims is good.
Taxes are charged by government for all citizens. Taxes are necessary. There is no explanation regarding best tax-practice in qur’an. All is contextual with the nation livinghood. The concept of zakat in Islam is not tax (tax in term of paying the body which citizens have trust to be able to rule and regulate their livinghood). Zakat is implying that anything we earn, there is part belong to those handicapped. Zakat is individual obligation, while obligation for tax appear in social livinghood. So, muslim or not, when they have government, tax is a must, and should be properly regulated. Tax not the same for all, depends on the duty the government should do against the citizens. When there are some obligation for government to treat non-muslim which not applicable to muslim in muslim countries, it is customary to put non-muslim tax on them.

43. Shiara Law is better than Secular law.
The law which is better in preventing corruption will be the best. Sharia is deriving the value of qur’an into practice. Open to many misinterpretations. I believe if the teachings of qur’an interpreted properly well, wether the practice is to be secular (in term of splitting individual courses with social intercourse) or sharia, is the same.

Michael

01-28-07, 02:43 AM

LiveInFaith,

Thanks :) I know that was a long list!

I’ve have some more questions, if you would like to give them a go. I’ve asked these sorts of questions before but I am curious as to your thoughts anyway.

- Lets suppose that your close family member or partner, perhaps a parent or sibling or first of kin, or wife or husband, decided to convert to Hinduism. Suppose that while being a practicing Muslim they were unhappy and in their new faith they feel enlightened and happy. As part of their new faith they reject the notion that Mohammed was the Last Prophet and also that there is a single God-Head (One God). If you could see their happiness was genuine, would you support their conversion out of Islam? Would you support their freedom to convert?

- In your own personal experience, has the teachings you found in the Qur’an ever led to personal enlightenment – if so, could you share or relate this?

- In your studies of the Qur’an, I am curious: Is there a novel teaching in the Qur’an? By novel I mean something that wasn’t already taught by Buddhists or Hindu or Greeks etc.. something “new” to Islam.
A revelation if you will.
I am still perplexed as to why the Qur’an was written IF there isn’t anything particularly novel, inspiring thus enlightening in it that wasn’t already expressed elsewhere?
[**note: By this I mean other than: “There is One God and Mohammed is the Last Prophet”. While that may be taken as fact - it isn’t novel nor pondering it lead to an enlightened state.] So with this in mind, have you come across anything in a sermon or your studies that was novel and enlightening in Islam?

Thanks,
Michael

LiveInFaith

01-28-07, 08:21 AM

- Lets suppose that your close family member or partner, perhaps a parent or sibling or first of kin, or wife or husband, decided to convert to Hinduism. Suppose that while being a practicing Muslim they were unhappy and in their new faith they feel enlightened and happy. As part of their new faith they reject the notion that Mohammed was the Last Prophet and also that there is a single God-Head (One God). If you could see their happiness was genuine, would you support their conversion out of Islam? Would you support their freedom to convert?

It is sad to loose a member in a society. But considering one knows what one does, any choice should be respected, and supported. Everybody knows what they want, and will, and somehow they have their lives, their own fate, their own chance, and their own risks, not me.

- In your own personal experience, has the teachings you found in the Qur’an ever led to personal enlightenment – if so, could you share or relate this?

Direct enlightenment maybe not. It is kind of accumulative in the way I live my life.
I would like to emphasize 2 things : (1) the concept of qadha and qadar (god's will), one of six faith in Islam; and (2) tawakkal (patience and acceptance).

Qadha is god's will without my intervention (e.g. the universe and law operating in and of it; my very existence; anything available before me), while qadar is god's will which could be 'adjusted' against my behaviours and actions. Qadar is free choice in the boundary of qadha. both are under god's will. Qadha is pre-determined, and under my endeavour, I will meet my qadar (post-action). If I get success, that means I had done all god's will, if I haven't, it means I still miss something god wants me to do. After all endeavour, and I still don't know what that is, then I pray. Sometimes it just a simple thing we neglect because we think it has nothing to do with what we endeavour. For example, once in my experience, after hard effort, I still got no success, then I pray. After praying, something inside telling me that I have to ask forgiveness from my mother because I did some rude to her. I did, and then things run better. Having mother is qadha (I just have to accept I have a mother, it is already available for me), and asking her forgiveness is how I pursue my 'wish of qadar'.

If, even if after doing that I still have got no success, then that's because I still miss something else, and still required to pursue more endeavour. In this case, I should be tawakkal (patience and accept). This behaviour makes me blame noone, blame nothing, it's just because I still miss something to reach my qadar. It's all on me. Just do a pray, searching for guide, and that makes me always easy.

The point is, I am prevented of being upset for anything, that keeps my heart in stable pressure.

- In your studies of the Qur’an, I am curious: Is there a novel teaching in the Qur’an? By novel I mean something that wasn’t already taught by Buddhists or Hindu or Greeks etc.. something “new” to Islam.
A revelation if you will.
I am still perplexed as to why the Qur’an was written IF there isn’t anything particularly novel, inspiring thus enlightening in it that wasn’t already expressed elsewhere?
[**note: By this I mean other than: “There is One God and Mohammed is the Last Prophet”. While that may be taken as fact - it isn’t novel nor pondering it lead to an enlightened state.] So with this in mind, have you come across anything in a sermon or your studies that was novel and enlightening in Islam?

Thanks,
Michael

Frankly speaking, no!
Qur'an is a guide and warning. It gives light in the dark, and warns not to exceed limits.