Fred wanted to ski

More than almost anything else, Fred wanted to ski. But Fred was afraid.

Fred was afraid that he might get hurt, or even killed. Fred was afraid that he wouldn't be very good. But most of all, Fred was afraid that people would laugh at his tiny little skis.

Fred would tell others, and himself, that he didn't want to ski. Fred would tell others, and himself, that skiing was cold, wet and nasty. But still Fred, and everyone else, knew that he really wanted to ski.

All alone in his cold, darkened room at the lodge, Fred would read the Good Book. When the skiers returned from the slopes, Fred would regale them with stories from the Bible.

Most of the skiers would roll their eyes and walk away. But some stayed and listened. It made Fred feel good to have people pay attention to him. It made him feel even better to be the one in the conversation who knew the most about the topic, so he continued his Bible studies.

One day Fred came across the following passage:

And he [Satan] brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, and said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down from hence: For it is written, He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee: And in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

--Luke 4:9-12, KJV

Something snapped in Fred's already fragile mind that day. Skiing, he told himself, was nothing but a fancy way of leaping off of a pinnacle. The desire he felt to ski, he told himself, came from the devil. His avoidance of skiing, he told himself, was a virtue. When he refused to ski, he told himself, he was doing God's work.

Fred told himself these things again and again. When he finally convinced himself, he started telling others. Fred told them that skiing was cold, wet, nasty and dangerous. Fred told them that the desire to ski came from the devil. Fred told them that skiing was evil, and therefore skiers were evil.

But many people had been skiing, and knew that with proper precautions it was fun and safe. The non-skiers all had friends who were skiers, and knew they were no different from anyone else. So the skiers and their non-skiers friends just laughed at Fred.

Fred screamed and yelled and told the people that they had been deceived by the devil. Most just laughed. An unbalanced few joined him. In time, Fred and his followers moved away from the mountains to settle among the plainsmen.

Fred told the plainsmen that skiing was cold, wet, nasty and dangerous. Fred told them that the desire to ski came from the devil. Fred told them that skiing was against the laws of God, and therefore skiers were evil. Most of the plainsmen had never been skiing. Few had even met a skier. Knowing no better, many people accepted Fred's fantasy as reality. After all, he seemed so sincere.

Conservatives wanted to pass laws barring skiers from public office, or from jobs in teaching. Moderates said things like "Hate the skis, but love the skier!" Even liberals started saying things like "If people want to do cold, wet, nasty and dangerous things in the privacy of the mountains, that's none of our business." They never realized that skiing was a perfectly normal activity, and relatively safe if you take the proper precautions.

Every time a skier broke the law, or behaved poorly, Fred proclaimed it evidence of the moral weakness of skiers. When young men and women learned to ski while away at college, Fred proclaimed it evidence that the schools were under the control of an Atheist-Skier conspiracy. When the courts threw out anti-skier laws as unconstitutional, Fred claimed the judges to be the willing tools of Satan.

Every time a skier would get hurt or catch a cold Fred would claim it to be a punishment from God for their sins. When an avalanche struck, Fred proclaimed it to be God's judgment against skiers, heedless that many of the dead and injured were not skiers.

Fred, in his insanity, turned away from those who needed help. He encouraged his followers to turn away too. Worse, his insanity had spread to the point where liberal commentators were saying things like "But what about the babies, surely they never skied!"

A few could see where this madness would lead, but no one would listen. The day they feared came: A couple of Fred's followers decided God needed a little help. The followers found a young skier named Matt. The lured him to a desolate ski-slope, and they tortured him to death.

People were shocked and they were horrified. They held their breath. Surely, they thought, Fred would have to see that his hatred was wrong.

Fred arrived at Matt's funeral with a few of his followers. They carried signs with slogans like "God hates skiers" and "Matt burns in Hell."

Horror upon horrors! Fred was clearly insane. Surely the mainstream churches would speak against his insanity.

But few ever did.

So the clouds opened up, a bright light shone forth, and God spoke:

"Fred, you're a twisted bigoted idiot. There's nothing wrong with skiing. If I didn't want people to ski, I could easily have made it impossible."

"You Popes and Bishops and Ministers should be ashamed of yourselves for not speaking out against this man's delusion. You have been charged with spreading my word but have failed to spread the most basic element: Love!"

"You who call yourselves my children: What part of 'Love your neighbor as you would love yourself' did you not understand?"

"And you skiers, wipe that smug smile of your face. I've heard what you've been saying about snow boarders. Do the words 'do unto others' ring a bell?"

"Each and every one of you, listen up. I've said it before, I'll say it again: Go forth, and be excellent to one another. Get that right, and the rest will follow."

The last echoes of God's voice faded. The clouds came together. The great light of God faded.

Fred and his followers realized the great evil they had done. The mainstream churches realized that complacency was complicity. The skiers realized they too were not without faults. The snow boarders got some pants that fit.

Everybody forgave everybody else, and from that moment on everyone was excellent to one another.



In October of 1998 in Wyoming a pair of Christian thugs tortured to death Matthew Shepard, a young gay man. Pastor Fred Phelps and his supporters picketed Matthew's funeral with signs reading "God Hates Fags" and "Heaven Won't Take Fags-Hell Has Him Now." Some of the more liberal churches mumbled reproach. After two or three days of halfhearted attention, the media returned to discussing President Clinton's sex life.

God was notably absent from the discussions.

Thanks for sharing that, I especially like the ending of the story, even if it points out how painfully short real life falls. The real events are ones that I've been familiar with since they happened, and Fred Phelps and his flock still regularly protest at funerals of homosexuals, especially those who die of aids. You can check out what they have to say at http://www.godhatesfags.com though I wouldn't click that link if you've eaten recently, it may induce vomiting. You can also download some of Phelp's hate rants (or sermons, as it were), a fact I learned one evening (as I'm fond of retelling) when I was spending some intimate time with a good friend of mine, as music played through the mp3 playlist on his computer when one of those sermons came on, and we decided to finish up anyhow, he even seemed to enjoy it a bit. To this day he denies having intentionally thrown that in the mix, but he gets this stupid grin when he remembers it that makes me think otherwise.

Oh, also, am I to interperate
Go forth, and be excellent to one another.
as meaning that in this particular flavor of the story God is played by Kianu Reves? That's the image I got. "Go forth and be most excelent to one another, dudes! Oh and party on! *God fades away while playing air guitar to stairway to heaven*"

Well, a good parable you have come up with. It shows quite well that religion, respective: faith, can cause insane atrocities. And, after looking at the link Mystech has provided, I have to say that this Fred Phelps is a nutcase.

So, he has a problem with gays? Obviousyl, otherwise he would not do this shit. He even has this game on his site, in which gays are represented through pink swastikas...
And there is much more he doesn´t like, prostitutes and other people as far as I have read through the crap on his page.

Anyway, as far as I can judge, he sadly is not a single case, and from a religious point of view, there is some justification in his action. Of course, this solely depends on the subjective convictions, I still think that his actions are intolerable, and if there is a hell, this guy might well end up (or rather down) there.

That is about all there is to say, he is insane and perhaps a (possible) terrorist, but no one seems to interfere much... really sad.

Well, also just as bad as Fred Phelps are those awful anti-crustation people. http://www.godhatesshrimp.com

What did shell fish ever do to these people? It's awful.

It make me sick, what some fundi will do.
religious fundamentalism, should be outlawed. an impossiblity I know, but we got to do something. and no I dont know what. yet!

Hello All,

I would just like to add my two pence. Christianity cannot be blamed for the actions of individuals who commit heinous acts and profess to be Christians and yet are anything but. Christian = Christlike, so how can a murderer profess to be a Christian when no matter how much they twist scripture cannot justify their actions.

Thanks

Dave

Christlike, so how can a murderer profess to be a Christian when no matter how much they twist scripture cannot justify their actions.
The scripture actually says to kill gays, its just not all christians follow it, and some are even gay, go figure.
I think in a way it cant be blamed for a persons actions as we are all responsible for ourselves but in a way it can be blamed as you can only read and interpret what is there, and if it can be interpreted that way then it must be at least slightly wrong.

"Fred, you're a twisted bigoted idiot. There's nothing wrong with skiing. If I didn't want people to ski, I could easily have made it impossible."

Why not replace the word ski with pedophilia?

Why not replace the word ski with wife bashing?

Why not replace the word ski with torturer?

Why not replace the word ski with alcoholism?

Why not replace the Word ski with thrill killing?

How depraved the world is becoming. Sin is sin it has always been sin and no matter how you try your best to deceive the people of the world into thinking that sin is not sin. Gods Word Will Stand.

All praise The Ancient of Days

Hello All,

I would just like to add my two pence. Christianity cannot be blamed for the actions of individuals who commit heinous acts and profess to be Christians and yet are anything but. Christian = Christlike, so how can a murderer profess to be a Christian when no matter how much they twist scripture cannot justify their actions.

Thanks

Dave
AND I SAY UNTO THEE
JESUS YOUR LORD KILLED

He replied, 'I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what he has will be taken away. But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me.' After Jesus had said this, he went on ahead, going up to Jerusalem. ( Luke 19:26-28)
So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds. ( Revelation 2:22-23)
I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away an withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. (John 15:5-6)

The scripture actually says to kill gays, its just not all christians follow it, and some are even gay, go figure.
I think in a way it cant be blamed for a persons actions as we are all responsible for ourselves but in a way it can be blamed as you can only read and interpret what is there, and if it can be interpreted that way then it must be at least slightly wrong.

Hello Lemming3k,

Where in scripture does it say kill gays?

Dave

Why not replace the word ski with pedophilia?

Why not replace the word ski with wife bashing?

Why not replace the word ski with torturer?

Why not replace the word ski with alcoholism?

Why not replace the Word ski with thrill killing?

How depraved the world is becoming. Sin is sin it has always been sin and no matter how you try your best to deceive the people of the world into thinking that sin is not sin. Gods Word Will Stand.

All praise The Ancient of Days
perhaps i've got this wrong, but it appears to me the you and your god are advocating pedophilia, wife bashing, torturer, alcoholism, thrill killing.
because thats how it reads.
just one example.
Fred, you're a twisted bigoted idiot. There's nothing wrong with pedophilia. If I didn't want people to (be)pedophiles, I could easily have made it impossible.

Hello Lemming3k,

Where in scripture does it say kill gays?

Dave

Leviticus 20; 13:

If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

Thanks Dreamwalker,

Leviticus 20; 13:

If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

The above was written to the Levit priests back in the days of Moses, who were Jews not Christians.

Luke 6
40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.
41 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
42 Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye.

John 8
6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

Can you see that what these guys did was not what Christians are meant to behave like? They completely bypassed Christ’s word for words written to levit priests back in the days of Moses. Remember Christian means primarily following the teachings of Jesus Christ. Also, most Christians actually believe that everyone is a sinner including them so essentially we have no right to judge anyone.

Dave

Hello Lemming3k,
Where in scripture does it say kill gays?
Dave
In leviticus, it says they should be stoned to death.

Leviticus 20; 13:

if a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.


Thanks Dreamwalker,
The above was written to the Levit priests back in the days of Moses, who were Jews not Christians. still scripture.
and jesus was a jew.

AND I SAY UNTO THEE
JESUS YOUR LORD KILLED

He replied, 'I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what he has will be taken away. But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me.' After Jesus had said this, he went on ahead, going up to Jerusalem. ( Luke 19:26-28)

You deceiving liar.

Luke19: 26 and 27 where the end of a parable of the minas, you have deceptively added the next verse to make it seem it was Jesus telling his followers to kill. Jesus Never killed anyone while He was with us on earth.

The parable of the Minas: (to those who are interested)

Luke 19
11 Now as they heard these things, He spoke another parable, because He was near Jerusalem and because they thought the kingdom of God would appear immediately. 12Therefore He said: "A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom and to return. 13So he called ten of his servants, delivered to them ten minas, and said to them, "Do business till I come.' 14But his citizens hated him, and sent a delegation after him, saying, "We will not have this man to reign over us.'
15"And so it was that when he returned, having received the kingdom, he then commanded these servants, to whom he had given the money, to be called to him, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. 16Then came the first, saying, "Master, your mina has earned ten minas.' 17And he said to him, "Well done, good servant; because you were faithful in a very little, have authority over ten cities.' 18And the second came, saying, "Master, your mina has earned five minas.' 19Likewise he said to him, "You also be over five cities.'
20"Then another came, saying, "Master, here is your mina, which I have kept put away in a handkerchief. 21For I feared you, because you are an austere man. You collect what you did not deposit, and reap what you did not sow.' 22And he said to him, "Out of your own mouth I will judge you, you wicked servant. You knew that I was an austere man, collecting what I did not deposit and reaping what I did not sow. 23Why then did you not put my money in the bank, that at my coming I might have collected it with interest?'
24"And he said to those who stood by, "Take the mina from him, and give it to him who has ten minas.' 25(But they said to him, "Master, he has ten minas.') 26"For I say to you, that to everyone who has will be given; and from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 27But bring here those enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, and slay them before me."'




So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds. ( Revelation 2:22-23)

The book of Revelation is a Book of prophecy of future events. It was written after Jesus had been resurrected and taken into heaven. Of course the returning Messiah will destroy His enemies upon His return at the battle of Armageddon but while He was here at His first coming He never killed anyone.


I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away an withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. (John 15:5-6)

Once again a parable about the future judgment of the last day. Of course those who reject Jesus will be cast into the lake of fire. So your 3 scriptures do not prove that Jesus killed anyone while He was on the earth.

All praise the Ancient Of Days

perhaps i've got this wrong, but it appears to me the you and your god are advocating pedophilia, wife bashing, torturer, alcoholism, thrill killing.
because thats how it reads.
just one example.
Fred, you're a twisted bigoted idiot. There's nothing wrong with pedophilia. If I didn't want people to (be)pedophiles, I could easily have made it impossible.

You are only revealing the evil within yourself.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Fundamentalism is a way of thought built around a basic refusal to consider any foreign, alien, or complicated suggestions and reinforced with a feedback loop of religious psychologies.

Sad, very. :)

Why not replace the word ski with pedophilia?

Why not replace the word ski with wife bashing?

Why not replace the word ski with torturer?

Why not replace the word ski with alcoholism?

Why not replace the Word ski with thrill killing?

perhaps i've got this wrong, but it appears to me the you and your god are advocating pedophilia, wife bashing, torturer, alcoholism, thrill killing.
because thats how it reads.
just one example.
Fred, you're a twisted bigoted idiot. There's nothing wrong with pedophilia. If I didn't want people to (be)pedophiles, I could easily have made it impossible. You are only revealing the evil within yourself.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days how is she?
thats exactly how it reads.
obviously you cant see it, as your blinded by faith.

still scripture.
and jesus was a jew.

Well Pavlos, it seems the post that explained this has went straight over your head. This is understandable if you didn't take the time to read it and comprehend it.

Jesus was in fact a Jew, well observed.

Dave

Dave:
I read it, duh!.
you ask where in scripture it said kill gays and it was answered, there was no need of an explanation.
I came to the same conclusion as pavlos, it dont matter who it was said to and why, its in your book.
and jesus was a jew so why to you separate yourself from that fact.
christians, jews muslims etc all religious, we dont make any kind of distinction, between them. ok!

Dave:
I read it, duh!.
you ask where in scripture it said kill gays and it was answered, there was no need of an explanation.
I came to the same conclusion as pavlos, it dont matter who it was said to and why, its in your book.
and jesus was a jew so why to you separate yourself from that fact.
christians, jews muslims etc all religious, we dont make any kind of distinction, between them. ok!

Hello Audible,

You may have read the scripture but you have not accepted my explanation, as obviously you have no intention of learning you prefer, it seems, to just misquote scripture without understanding the context in which it was written.

Christians follow Jesus' teachings, not words written specifically to Levit priests.

Dave

whatever happened to the bible being gods words?

whatever happened to the bible being gods words?

Hello Lemming3k,

Who said anything to the contrary? When you read the scripture you have to understand exactly which audience the scripture was applicable to, doesn't mean the words were not from God.

Does God still think that homosexual activity is detestible? Yes, I would think he does, just like any other sin. But the difference is, we(Christians) are not to judge others lest we be judged, so we should not even bad mouth gays never mind kill them.

Dave

BTW I don't want this to turn into being gay is natural etc. I just want to clear up what my initial post in this thread explained.

perhaps i've got this wrong, but it appears to me the you and your god are advocating pedophilia, wife bashing, torturer, alcoholism, thrill killing.
because thats how it reads.
just one example.
Fred, you're a twisted bigoted idiot. There's nothing wrong with pedophilia. If I didn't want people to (be)pedophiles, I could easily have made it impossible.Of course you got it wrong...

Think of what he might have meant (do you really think he advocates these things?).

Hello Audible,

You may have read the scripture but you have not accepted my explanation, as obviously you have no intention of learning you prefer, it seems, to just misquote scripture without understanding the context in which it was written.

Christians follow Jesus' teachings, not words written specifically to Levit priests.

Dave
how is it a mis-quote, if its reprinted how its written, it does not matter if it was in context, or not, its scripture.
Of course you got it wrong...

Think of what he might have meant (do you really think he advocates these things?).
I think everybody knows, what he meant, however you cant change the word ski ,and make it sound right, using the words adstar had choosen.

Hello Lemming3k,
Who said anything to the contrary? When you read the scripture you have to understand exactly which audience the scripture was applicable to, doesn't mean the words were not from God.
What im trying to establish is that god let these words be written and claimed as his, he knew this would happen before christ did anything, he knew what the words would be and how they would be interpreted and used, so he therefore agrees with all that is in the book and they are his words, many christians deny this and claim that it is not to be taken literally, when at no point does it state they arnt to be taken literally.
Does God still think that homosexual activity is detestible? Yes, I would think he does, just like any other sin. But the difference is, we(Christians) are not to judge others lest we be judged, so we should not even bad mouth gays never mind kill them.
Again some do some dont, the confusion is due to the wording of the book, which is gods words and he knew exactly how people would interpret them, meaning he is responsible.

it does not matter if it was in context, or not, its scripture.


This was probably the thought process of the two sociopaths that killed this guy. And they were wrong on all accounts.

And, no, I'm not going to repeat what I have comprehensively explained.

Dave

What im trying to establish is that god let these words be written and claimed as his, he knew this would happen before christ did anything, he knew what the words would be and how they would be interpreted and used, so he therefore agrees with all that is in the book and they are his words, many christians deny this and claim that it is not to be taken literally, when at no point does it state they arnt to be taken literally.

Again some do some dont, the confusion is due to the wording of the book, which is gods words and he knew exactly how people would interpret them, meaning he is responsible.

Hello Lemming3k,

As I have explained, God was teaching the Levit's in the time of Mose's. Christians should follow the teachings of Christ, not teachings that were not intended for them. Do you see? Should Christians disregard the words of God in the passages discussed? No, as it gives us an understanding of what a particular sin is in his eyes, so we learn about God.

When Christians claim that this is not meant to be taken literally, they are correct in a sense, as we are in no position to judge sinners, the Levit priests were it seems.

The confusion is due to a lack of understanding of what Jesus taught.

Dave

Yo Dave,

Quote davewhite04,
"As I have explained, God was teaching the Levit's in the time of Mose's. Christians should follow the teachings of Christ, not teachings that were not intended for them. Do you see? Should Christians disregard the words of God in the passages discussed? No, as it gives us an understanding of what a particular sin is in his eyes, so we learn about God.

When Christians claim that this is not meant to be taken literally, they are correct in a sense, as we are in no position to judge sinners, the Levit priests were it seems.

The confusion is due to a lack of understanding of what Jesus taught."

Some questions:

1. Is the Bible the eternal, inerrant word of God?
2. Regarding the Bible, how does one seperate the literal, from the non literal?
3. Why is there confusion regarding what Jesus taught?
4. What exactly did Jesus teach?

Allcare.

As I have explained, God was teaching the Levit's in the time of Mose's. Christians should follow the teachings of Christ, not teachings that were not intended for them. Do you see?
Christians base their beliefs on the writings and teachings in the bible and believe them to be the truth from god, if the bible are his words then christians should not ignore them, regardless of what they say or who they were intended for, also god is supposedly all knowing, and would have known this confusion would happen so why was the bible not able to avoid this?

In the Bible it does not say "Kill Gays". It says that men that lie with men should be put to death - presumably after due process. Like any properly designated (in its day) legal document, it assumes the rule of law, not the rule of the mob.

What was said is true, the one foolish line in that little parable is the concept of God saying "If I didn't want you to such-and-such I would have made it impossible."

Why not replace the word ski with pedophilia?

Why not replace the word ski with wife bashing?

Why not replace the word ski with torturer?

Why not replace the word ski with alcoholism?

Why not replace the Word ski with thrill killing? Lets leave alcoholism out of it for the moment, but the others are all clearly acts which hurt other people. I'm fascinated as to your justification for regarding homosexuality as a sin (because it says so in the bible) by likening it to a series of violent acts all of which we can agree are among the very vilest of behaviours, but not one of which is specifically prohibited in the Bible.

I think the vast majority of people around the world prefer to take their morality in an absolute sense from what is clearly harmful to other people, as opposed to acts between consenting adults that some people happen to regard as disgusting.

Why do we (in the West) pride ourselves on our democracy? Why do we have democracy? Because the fundamental understanding of society is that everything changes, environments change, society changes, and that laws have to change to reflect that. The problem with following strictly to the nostrums of a 2,500 year old book (if we talk about Leviticus) is that the great majority of Jews, Christians and Muslims are not a semi-nomadic, agricultural people living in broadly desert country without the benefits or disbenefits of technology, good or bad.


5 When brothers live together and one of them dies and has no son, the wife of the deceased shall not be married outside the family to a strange man. Her husband's brother shall go in to her and take her to himself as wife and perform the duty of a husband's brother to her.
6 It shall be that the firstborn whom she bears shall assume the name of his dead brother, so that his name will not be blotted out from Israel.
7 But if the man does not desire to take his brother's wife, then his brother's wife shall go up to the gate to the elders and say, 'My husband's brother refuses to establish a name for his brother in Israel; he is not willing to perform the duty of a husband's brother to me.'
8 Then the elders of his city shall summon him and speak to him. And if he persists and says, 'I do not desire to take her,'
9 then his brother's wife shall come to him in the sight of the elders, and pull his sandal off his foot and spit in his face; and she shall declare, 'Thus it is done to the man who does not build up his brother's house.'
A law that was clearly written "post hoc". In other words, one day this sequence of events took place (including the shoe handling) and later it was codified as a law exactly as it happened. Can anybody tell me really if this whole farrago took place even once after the book of Leviticus was written down? This is one of the areas that if you were to believe that every word of the Bible was the undistilled word of God, you'd say that he was a remarkably foolish and pettyfogging deity.

In the Bible it does not say "Kill Gays". It says that men that lie with men should be put to death
Isnt that what gay is?
presumably after due process.
Thats your assumption and opinion of it, it nowhere states that.

Yo Stretched!


1. Is the Bible the eternal, inerrant word of God?


I'll let the Bible speak for itself on this one.

2 Timothy 3
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:


2. Regarding the Bible, how does one seperate the literal, from the non literal?


This is a good question. Books like the apocalyptic ones (Daniel, Revelations etc) I do not take literally, they are more symbolic as they contain visions and such for future events. The rest I take literally but do understand that my interpretation is not perfect as I’m not perfect. A good site which covers this area in more detail is http://www.carm.org/bible/interpret.htm if you’re interested.


3. Why is there confusion regarding what Jesus taught?


I think there are many reasons for this, but I do feel that everyone has their own agenda and this can effect whether or not they understand what Jesus taught with any clarity.


4. What exactly did Jesus teach?


Well I have written the passages that he taught which are relevant to part of the OP question, I would write them again but they are but just a few posts up. If you want to learn more I’d recommend reading Mark’s gospel first (shortest) and then Luke’s.

Dave

Hello Lemming3k,

Christians base their beliefs on the writings and teachings in the bible


There seemingly is Christians whose belief actually incorporates words written to Levit priests, these need to learn or be taught about context sensitive passages, like the one we are talking about. Jesus warned us not to judge others. So from Leviticus 20:13 we know God's thoughts on the matter of homosexuality, but we are not to judge people who are homosexual as Jesus taught us this.


and believe them to be the truth from god,


They are correct here.


if the bible are his words then christians should not ignore them, regardless of what they say or who they were intended for,


Who said we do ignore them?


also god is supposedly all knowing, and would have known this confusion would happen so why was the bible not able to avoid this?

Man is not perfect, but in Christ we can become closer to perfection. So to be in Christ we need to follow what he said first.

Dave

Man is not perfect, but in Christ we can become closer to perfection. So to be in Christ we need to follow what he said first.
It was a reference not about man, god knew how the bible would be written, what it would say, and how every individual man would react to it, so why did it happen the way it has? Why did god allow all his words to be taken however people pleased and divide people more than unite them?

*Man is not perfect, but in Christ we can become closer to perfection. So to be in Christ we need to follow what he said first.*

Christ was not perfect! He was the ultimate terror of man. Theres' no perfection in alturism which is exactly what christ was an alturist. Anyhow Jesus was a no-one till some sob's 100-300 years latters wrote about him as some sort of messiah. The Jews still don't recognise your jesus as a messiah, neither do muslims.

Prophecies to Identify the Messiah, Which Jesus Does Not Fulfill:

1) Matthew 1:23 says that Jesus (the messiah) would be called Immanuel, which means "God with us." Yet no one, not even his parents, call him Immanuel at any point in the bible.

2) The Messiah must be a physical descendant of David (Romans 1:3 & Acts 2:30). Yet, how could Jesus meet this requirement since his genealogies in Matthew 1 and Luke 3 show he descended from David through Joseph, who was not his natural father because of the Virgin Birth. Hence, this prophecy could not have been fulfilled.

3) Isaiah 7:16 seems to say that before Jesus had reached the age of maturity, both of the Jewish countries would be destroyed. Yet there is no mention of this prophecy being fulfilled in the New Testament with the coming of Jesus, hence this is another Messiah prophecy not fulfilled.

Nough said;

Godless.

In the Bible it does not say "Kill Gays". It says that men that lie with men should be put to death

Isnt that what gay is?
presumably after due process.

Thats your assumption and opinion of it, it nowhere states that.
"Put to death" means legitimately killed by law, not murder. Otherwise every sin listed as punishable by death would be in conflict with the 6th Commandment. And the reason I said that the Bible does not say "Kill Gays" but says put to death men that lie with men, is that I was trying to point out, without directly saying so, that the Bible says nothing about women that lie with women.

I'm actually kind of trying to highlight the hypocrisy of people who indulge their appalling homophobic views with the excuse that "It's a sin. It says so in the Bible." This goes double for people who go further than whoever it was posted higher up the thread that it says "Kill Gays" in the Bible and don't merely state it on an internet forum, but actually go out and do it. And so they go out, find someone who they believe to be homosexual and severely beat them up or actually kill them, solely for the reason that they are disgusted by one or two acts that they believe all homosexuals indulge in, despite the fact that they themselves have never been and will never be invited to participate in such acts nor even to have to witness them. And the fact that such acts are committed in private between consenting adults and that nobody else is harmed simply doesn't enter into their views.

*Man is not perfect, but in Christ we can become closer to perfection. So to be in Christ we need to follow what he said first.*

Christ was not perfect! He was the ultimate terror of man. Theres' no perfection in altruism which is exactly what christ was an altruist. Anyhow Jesus was a no-one till some sob's 100-300 years latters wrote about him as some sort of messiah. The Jews still don't recognise your jesus as a messiah, neither do muslims. Well, duh! Christianity is based on Jesus the Christ! That is what differentiates it from other religions - so obviously they aren't going to believe the same thing. It is the multiplicity of religions in this world, and their mutual incompatibility which is the strongest argument for the non-existance of any God.

Prophecies to Identify the Messiah, Which Jesus Does Not Fulfill:

[...]

2) The Messiah must be a physical descendant of David (Romans 1:3 & Acts 2:30). Yet, how could Jesus meet this requirement since his genealogies in Matthew 1 and Luke 3 show he descended from David through Joseph, who was not his natural father because of the Virgin Birth. Hence, this prophecy could not have been fulfilled.

It goes further than that, really. The genealogies in Matthew 1 and Luke 3 are different to each other from David onwards. One has the Christ descended through Solomon (the son of Bathsheba) and the other has him descended through Nathan (the son of a different wife or concubine, but I can't remember who.) But of course, Jesus bar-Joseph could not possibly be a descendent of David since he was a Galilean, not a Judaean. The idea that the Roman census would require people to travel back to their town of origin to register is certainly fiction. In addition there is no detail in either Nativity account (Christ's Nativity is only mentioned in Matthew and Luke) which is mentioned in the other.

Why did god allow all his words to be taken however people pleased

Free Will.

Dave

Hello there,

The Jews still don't recognise your jesus as a messiah, neither do muslims.


Some Jews do and as far as I know Muslims do too.


Prophecies to Identify the Messiah, Which Jesus Does Not Fulfill:


I don't see the relevance of asking this in this thread, however just this once I will answer two of the three.


1) Matthew 1:23 says that Jesus (the messiah) would be called Immanuel, which means "God with us." Yet no one, not even his parents, call him Immanuel at any point in the bible.


What has this got to do with the price of cheese?


2) The Messiah must be a physical descendant of David (Romans 1:3 & Acts 2:30). Yet, how could Jesus meet this requirement since his genealogies in Matthew 1 and Luke 3 show he descended from David through Joseph, who was not his natural father because of the Virgin Birth. Hence, this prophecy could not have been fulfilled.


He was a descendant of David through Mary, plus Joseph was his legal father and therefore Jesus' claim to be from the House of David is covered both ways.

Hope this helps.

Dave

Why did god allow all his words to be taken however people pleased ”


Free Will.
God still knew how the words would be taken and he allowed it to be so, if he knew this would happen why did he not rectify it in some way(being the all powerful being he is).

God still knew how the words would be taken and he allowed it to be so, if he knew this would happen why did he not rectify it in some way(being the all powerful being he is).

Hello Lemming3k,

This has got to the stage now where we are questioning the whole point of the Bible.

Without going into anymore detail, could you please give me a yes or no answer, is the world better off because of the Bible?

Thanks

Dave

This has got to the stage now where we are questioning the whole point of the Bible.
So am i not allowed to question it? I asked a question and was hoping for an answer.
Without going into anymore detail, could you please give me a yes or no answer, is the world better off because of the Bible?
My opinion is that no, its not.

The whole point of the Bible is to give those who embrace the love of the truth (Jesus) the guidance they need to be strengthened in the faith.


The Bible is written in such a way, as to allow misinterpretation by those who do not have the love of the truth. God does not through His pearls before swine. The Meek seek the guidance of God and God reveals His Word to them in Scripture. The others can use Philosophy and theology and interpretations of man. That is, the proud can merrily make there way up a theological pathway to a dead end.

2 Timothy 3
15and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

If one has no faith in The Messiah Jesus then they have no chance of having the scriptures revealed to them.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Yo Dave,

Thanks for responding. Regarding yor response to my first question, the Bible could then be considered a guide to moral behaviour only and not an absolute book of rules? That I can understand and appreciate.

The reason I asked the second question regarding the literal and non-literal nature of the Bible, is that in answering hard questions like "Is Jesus God?" the literal interpretation would not suffice for an absolute "yes". So in this instance, interpretation could undermine the very foundation of Christianity.

Regarding question three, why is the message of Jesus not crystal clear? If he genuinely wants to save mankind from whatever sin he placed them into in the first place, why is the message not unambigious?

Did Jesus teach us firstly to love our fellow man or to love him?

Allcare.

hi boys and girls
have a nice one

Philosopher Philocrazy and a great humorist

Hello again,

So am i not allowed to question it? I asked a question and was hoping for an answer.

I did answer your question but you did not seem to accept it. It seems like you want me to say something that agrees with whatever you think.

Dave

Hello Stretched,


Regarding yor response to my first question, the Bible could then be considered a guide to moral behaviour only and not an absolute book of rules? That I can understand and appreciate.


Yes. And remember certain guides in the Old Testament were written for specific people in specific times. I provided a link earlier which helps clear up interpretation problems.


The reason I asked the second question regarding the literal and non-literal nature of the Bible, is that in answering hard questions like "Is Jesus God?" the literal interpretation would not suffice for an absolute "yes". So in this instance, interpretation could undermine the very foundation of Christianity.


Christians believe Jesus is the Son of God, as the scripture says. Some will say he is God so you would have to ask them how they arrived at that conclusion.


Regarding question three, why is the message of Jesus not crystal clear? If he genuinely wants to save mankind from whatever sin he placed them into in the first place, why is the message not unambigious?


Without blinding me with scripture, can you give me one example of what Jesus said that isn't crystal clear? If it is a parable then Jesus actually explained himself.

Matthew 13
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.


Did Jesus teach us firstly to love our fellow man or to love him?


Matthew 22
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

How can you go wrong if you follow the above commandments?

Dave

I did answer your question but you did not seem to accept it. It seems like you want me to say something that agrees with whatever you think.
You replied with 'This has got to the stage now where we are questioning the whole point of the Bible' and then asked me a question, but what you said does not answer what i asked.

Adstar:
The whole point of the Bible is to give those who embrace the love of the truth (Jesus) the guidance they need to be strengthened in the faith.
How can it give guidance when it is deliberately written to allow misinterpretation? That is not what guidance is.
The Bible is written in such a way, as to allow misinterpretation by those who do not have the love of the truth. God does not through His pearls before swine. The Meek seek the guidance of God and God reveals His Word to them in Scripture.
So how do you know you havnt interpreted it wrong if it is written to allow that? How do you know that other peoples views on what the scripture means are not correct?
Everyone claims to have the truth when it comes to the bible, but you cant all be right as you have conflicting views amongst yourselves, and you all believe in the messiah.

Hello again Lemming3k,

You initially asked:

Why did god allow all his words to be taken however people pleased?

My answer was Free Will. You then said:

God still knew how the words would be taken and he allowed it to be so, if he knew this would happen why did he not rectify it in some way(being the all powerful being he is).

This is essentially the same question in different clothing.

You ignored my initial answer and continued to ask the same question, obviously oblivious to the fact that I had all ready shared my thoughts on it.

Dave

You initially asked:
Why did god allow all his words to be taken however people pleased?
My answer was Free Will.
You then said:
God still knew how the words would be taken and he allowed it to be so, if he knew this would happen why did he not rectify it in some way(being the all powerful being he is).
This is essentially the same question in different clothing.
So your basically saying he knew what we would do but wanted us to have free will to make it happen, he wanted people to interpret things incorrectly and cause suffering and pain, very enlightening. Also the question was slightly different, i asked why he did not rectify the problem, if free will remains your answer then thats fair enough.
You ignored my initial answer and continued to ask the same question, obviously oblivious to the fact that I had all ready shared my thoughts on it.
I ignored it yet i quoted it in my response and was oblivious to it, again very enlightening.

Hello Lemming3k,

very enlightening


I haven't come here to enlightening you. I presented a point explaining why two sociopaths could not have been following Christ. You are blaming God for making his book imperfect so that misinterpretations can occur, I am blaming man.

End of story.

Dave

Yo Dave,

Cool, I love your faith.

Quote davewhite04:
"Christians believe Jesus is the Son of God, as the scripture says. Some will say he is God so you would have to ask them how they arrived at that conclusion."

I have posed the question on this board before - "is Jesus God?", and the answer seems to be unequivocally in one word, "yes". My question is then, "Who does Jesus pray to?" and who is he referring to when he talks about "My father"? If, as you say he is the son of god, how does one reconcile the Holy Trinity as three aspects of God in one, to the tenet of monotheism?

Without meaning to be pedantic or disrespectful, what would be the logical point of the text:
Matthew 22
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

How and who does one love regarding the above? And furthermore, why would any being need this type of unconditional adoration? To what avail other than ego and power thirst?

Allcare.

You are blaming God for making his book imperfect so that misinterpretations can occur, I am blaming man.
For the record im not blaming god, i dont believe in god, so he is not an option to recieve blame(in fact i blame man, much like you but im sure for different reasons). I am trying to get an idea of how christians interpret things and why, who they feel is responsible for certain things and why.

Hello Stretched!

Please forgive the length of my post, but your questions aren't easily summarised. I had to use scripture also to back up my point of view.

I have posed the question on this board before - "is Jesus God?", and the answer seems to be unequivocally in one word, "yes". My question is then, "Who does Jesus pray to?" and who is he referring to when he talks about "My father"? If, as you say he is the son of god, how does one reconcile the Holy Trinity as three aspects of God in one, to the tenet of monotheism?

This is an area which is neither black nor white. If you ask a Christian who follows the doctrine of the Holy Trinity then most I should think will point you in the direction of a website that makes things even harder to understand(I have done this myself in the past). When I was new to Christianity I accepted the Holy Trinity, but the more I study the Bible the less sense this doctrine makes.

I believe there is only one God. He is the father figure that Jesus refers to in the New Testament, and in the English translated Old Testament he is called JEHOVAH.

Exodus 6:3
And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.

Psalm 83:18
That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.

The Holy Spirit is also mentioned in both the Old and New Testament, and this is certainly an aspect of JEHOVAH as far as I can understand it.

Psalm 51:11
Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

Jesus' position in all this can be first investigated with this scripture.

Luke 9
34 While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.
35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.
36 And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept it close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen.

The above indicates that JEHOVAH vindicates anything that Jesus teaches, and confirms that he is his beloved son. Also:

Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

If we look at the above verse and take heaven to mean universe, then it could be argued that Jesus is in fact a God in the strictest sense of the word.

Now from this we can see why it’s possible to create the Trinitarian idea, but as far as I can see it breaks the first commandment, which was still valid in Jesus’ time as he taught a flavour of it, which I posted earlier (The greatest commandment).

So, in my view there is only one God, his name translated to English is JEHOVAH. However, you cannot hope to be blessed with his presence unless Jesus intervenes or you go to Jesus first. We were cut off from God long ago, but he has given us a second chance through his son Jesus Christ.


What would be the logical point of the text:
Matthew 22
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

How and who does one love regarding the above?

The logical point of the verse you quoted back is that if you follow that commandment you will become godlike in a non judgemental sense. That single commandment encompasses all of the Ten Commandments. If you follow that one commandment then it becomes impossible to break the other commandments and you become a better person in God’s eyes and combined with the commandment you didn’t re-quote plus Jesus' teachings, in society’s eyes too in my point of view. Does this make sense?

The only way to learn about God these days is through the Bible, prayer/meditation, music, talking to Christians. If you keep knocking (prayer/bible study) with a sincere heart, you will find God, I promise, and once you do the love thing will happen naturally.

And furthermore, why would any being need this type of unconditional adoration? To what avail other than ego and power thirst?

I don’t believe God needs anything from us to be honest. I think us showing this unconditional adoration is beneficial to us, spiritually.

Stretched, you sound very sincere so I hope I answered your questions ok.

Dave

Adstar:

How can it give guidance when it is deliberately written to allow misinterpretation? That is not what guidance is.

I have given the answer to this question. Go back to my post and take your time to read it .


So how do you know you havnt interpreted it wrong if it is written to allow that? How do you know that other peoples views on what the scripture means are not correct?


The faith that i hold or anyone holds is known by God, whatever my status as to holding to the truth it shall come to light on the day of judgment. As of now i am convicted of the truth of my faith. i embrace the Love of the Truth that is in Jesus my Messiah. Genuine conviction and joy in the message is my confidence.


Everyone claims to have the truth when it comes to the bible, but you cant all be right as you have conflicting views amongst yourselves, and you all believe in the messiah.


Yes that’s true there is a lot of false interpretation out there. You see satan does not bother false religion but he tries to overcome truth with a flood of deceptions. There are many different interpretations of the message of Jesus and only one is right.

To personalize this a bit i will give you an element of my faith that many who call themselves christians would disagree with but to which i believe is a central teaching of Jesus.

I believe that christians should take no part in worldly warfare. I believe that those who do take part are not following the Word of The Messiah Jesus and therefore are following another jesus of their own theological creation. let me post the scriptures that speak to my conscience:


Matthew 5:38-39
38 "You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. 39But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.


Matthew 5: 43-48
43 "You have heard that it was said, "You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.


Romans 12:17-21
17 Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men. 18If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men. 19Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. 20Therefore "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; If he is thirsty, give him a drink; For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head." 21Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.


Matthew 5:9
Blessed are the peacemakers, For they shall be called sons of God.


II Corinthians 10:3,4
"For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds."


Ephesians 6:12
"For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places."


Ephesians 6:4
"And you, fathers, do not provoke your children to wrath, but bring them up in the training and admonition of the Lord."


Zechariah 4:6
"Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit, says the Lord of Hosts."


Revelation 13:10
He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Now if my conviction is right. This eliminates many so called christians from True Christianity. Many men are attracted to doctrines that they think are right and sound good. They heap up teachers to confirm what they want to hear, what they want to believe, what they think is just. satan is only too willing to set up false churches and religions to pander to mans pride in their own reasoning. But those that are meek in heart will place their faith in The Word and be guided to understanding by The Holy Spirit within them.

Matthew 7
13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

All praise the Ancient of Days

Yo Dave,

Thanks for your time and response. I found this definition of the "Trinity" here: http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=2454

The Doctrine of Trinity

The Christian doctrine of the Trinity affirms that while God is one, He exists as three persons: The unknown God, creator and source of all life; Jesus Christ who has revealed the Father, and the Holy Spirit, the bond of love between Father and Son, who is always at work in transforming the world according to God’s purpose.

Here the statement "three persons" indicates a definite tritheist belief.

(and further from the same site)
Trinity is a mystery as well as a doctrine, which is beyond our intuitive recognition and faculty. One God in Three persons, that is the mystery of the Holy Trinity.

This mystery and concept does seem to point away from monotheism, so I understand your viewpoint Dave. But the above logic is flawed in that "mystery" is an acceptable tenet. If Jesus was the "Son of God" and not God, then the scenario becomes more comfortable. And yeah, if one accepts the doctrine of original sin then Jesus is the interface and God the computer. This is at least understandable.

Matthew 22
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

How and who does one love regarding the above?

Quote davewhite04:
The logical point of the verse you quoted back is that if you follow that commandment you will become godlike in a non judgemental sense. That single commandment encompasses all of the Ten Commandments. If you follow that one commandment then it becomes impossible to break the other commandments and you become a better person in God’s eyes and combined with the commandment you didn’t re-quote plus Jesus' teachings, in society’s eyes too in my point of view. Does this make sense?

I am with you here. If your heart is in the right place, all else becomes clear and natural. So if my son loves and respects me, he would comfortably follow my example.

Quote stretch:
And furthermore, why would any being need this type of unconditional adoration? To what avail other than ego and power thirst?

Quote davewhite04:
I don’t believe God needs anything from us to be honest. I think us showing this unconditional adoration is beneficial to us, spiritually.

I agree with you here Dave, but then why did god create us? What is our ultimate purpose?

Yep Dave, I sincerely want to understand what gives you faith in your God, and I also want to understand how the diversity of religions and the faithfull are all convinced that their particular faith is the "Truth". What divine revelation makes humans follow their chosen God? Thanks for your input.

Allcare.

Thankyou for the reply adstar.
I have given the answer to this question. Go back to my post and take your time to read it .
Perhaps i phrased my question badly, people who turn to the book for guidence arent getting it as it could be given, if guidence deliberately allows misinterpretation then it is rather poor guidence, i think you are trying to get at only those with love in their hearts choose the correct path after seeking guidence, i feel some people dont know any better than to do what their interpretation dictates and feel it is correct regardless of anything else.
There are many different interpretations of the message of Jesus and only one is right.
This is what im curious about, but i guess if the message is real i shall find out one day what its correct interpretation is.
To personalize this a bit i will give you an element of my faith that many who call themselves christians would disagree with but to which i believe is a central teaching of Jesus.
I believe that christians should take no part in worldly warfare. I believe that those who do take part are not following the Word of The Messiah Jesus and therefore are following another jesus of their own theological creation.
Despite being atheist i can in a way agree with and understand what you say, warfare doesnt benefit anyone and christians main belief is to be peaceful and loving so taking part in warfare is very much against what they should be doing, though of course we may find out one day that god finds it acceptable in certain circumstances. Someday we may see.
i embrace the Love of the Truth that is in Jesus my Messiah
I just wanted to pick up on this and get a complete definition to make sure im understanding it correctly.

Hello again Stretched!

So if my son loves and respects me, he would comfortably follow my example.

This is a good example, and yes. But remember that rules apply to him that don’t apply to you, all for the benefit of your son though.

But then why did god create us? What is our ultimate purpose?

It is believed King David wondered about this very same thing.

Psalm 8
4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?

A clue is in the New Testament.

John 3
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Maybe God created us out of love, this is what I believe. Our purpose? For me it is to learn about God and people, and to become a better person day by day. All this plus the 9-5 job and the rest that goes on with life :)

What divine revelation makes humans follow their chosen God?

Sometimes it is a divine intervention that causes someone to choose a specific religion (I know it’s happened in Christianity not sure about the other religions). For most though it is the culture in which they are brought up.

Dave

Thankyou for the reply adstar.

Perhaps i phrased my question badly, people who turn to the book for guidance aren’t getting it as it could be given, if guidance deliberately allows misinterpretation then it is rather poor guidence, i think you are trying to get at only those with love in their hearts choose the correct path after seeking guidence, i feel some people dont know any better than to do what their interpretation dictates and feel it is correct regardless of anything else.


Lemming3k i am struggling to find another way to explain the thoughts that i have but i will give it an other shot. I will use an analogy but i feel that no analogy can perfectly describe it.

Think of a good water filter. Firstly in this filter there is a course grating designed to get all the bigger stones. Next comes a fine grating designed to get al the little pebbles that pass through the course grating after this there is a fine paper cartridge to take out all the little specs of dirt and then finally a special membrane designed to remove all chemical contaminants from the water.

Now the designer of the filter made it with the goal of getting water and water only. Now the bigger stones think they have made it when they reach the course grating. The pebbles think they have made it when they reach the fine grating they look back at the bigger stones and shake their heads saying you have not got through the filter and so on down throughout the different sections of the filter those who reach the next stage look back at those stopped before them shaking their heads. They all think that in the end the designer will open up the filter and pull out the grating or cartridge or membrane that they have reached but the designer wants the water and the water does not know it has arrived until they get out of the other side of the filter.

Many People decide to go out and find God. But the truth is God cannot be found. The truth is, God reveals Himself to those He wills to reveal Himself too. Some people go to the bible and read it saying in their hearts I will discover God. I will define God and but Him into the box of My making. Along the way they inevitably find a teaching of God that goes against their concept of what God should teach it is then that they seek a theological interpretation of what they have read to conform it to their own thinking of what is right. They then have found their place in the filter they do not have the meekness to accept Gods will on faith, to carry on to the next level. So in the end they really where not seeking God with the right spirit they where looking for ”their God”, their concept of God, what God should be to them. Reading the bible for them is a waste of time because they only hear what they want to hear and disregard the rest. They in their own pride, their own thinking, know even before they start to look what God should be and they go out to find ”their God”.

Other people of course know they are limited human beings. They know they can never figure God out. Before they read the Bible they call out to God with a genuine heart asking Him to lead them to understanding. Asking Him to give them all the understanding they need, to be with Him. They have the right spirit and are guided by the Holy Spirit not to understand all things, but to understand what they need to understand. When they receive the knowledge they are meek enough to humbly accept it with joy.

In the end what does God really want?



This is what im curious about, but i guess if the message is real i shall find out one day what its correct interpretation is.


I believe that everyone will know the truth. But the question is will they know it before their earthy lives end or after it ends?




Despite being atheist i can in a way agree with and understand what you say, warfare doesnt benefit anyone and christians main belief is to be peaceful and loving so taking part in warfare is very much against what they should be doing, though of course we may find out one day that god finds it acceptable in certain circumstances. Someday we may see.


God has used war and i believe He continues to use war as an implement of His wrath. But He does not choose to Use Christians as and implement of His wrath upon the world. He uses us as His ambassadors to give the message of forgiveness to those who will hear it. For a Christian to die is nothing important, for we have eternity with God. But the death of a non-believer is indeed a terrible tragedy. It is far better to be killed then to be a killer.


"i embrace the Love of the Truth that is in Jesus my Messiah"

I just wanted to pick up on this and get a complete definition to make sure im understanding it correctly.


I'm not sure what you want here Lemming3k? When i say that i embrace the Love of the Truth i am embracing Gods Love that has been revealed through the Word of God, Jesus. His revelation is so wonderful it brings a tear to my eye.

All praise The Ancient Of Days

Fred wanted to ski
Since the preacher isn't 'fessing up, I'd like to point out that the opening parable is lifted from Jim Huber's web site (http://www.jhuger.com).

pete I think we all know he found it, the main point is he shared it, and I'm sure jim huber would be happy with that.

Adstar your analogy was good and explained things a lot better, and also your explanation of love of the truth was fine, i was just checking about that one, thankyou.
I believe that everyone will know the truth. But the question is will they know it before their earthy lives end or after it ends?
I think we can only know the certain truth after it ends.
God has used war and i believe He continues to use war as an implement of His wrath.
That would explain why he allows wars to happen, but i wouldnt understand the need for his wrath, if he wants people to be loving and peaceful and follow jesus' teachings a war is not the best way, scaring them into it with wrath is not a good way to get people to learn because they want to learn, only because they feel they will be spared.
But He does not choose to Use Christians as and implement of His wrath upon the world. He uses us as His ambassadors to give the message of forgiveness to those who will hear it. For a Christian to die is nothing important, for we have eternity with God.
Depending on any sins committed i shall presume?
But the death of a non-believer is indeed a terrible tragedy. It is far better to be killed then to be a killer.
I think all death is a tragedy as we dont know for certain what is there for us afterwards, i would hate for people to die believing there was something more if there wasnt.

pete I think we all know he found it, the main point is he shared it, and I'm sure jim huber would be happy with that.

I'm sure he wouldn't be too distressed, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't want a link. He's got a lot more to say than is in "Fred wanted to ski"

Adstar your analogy was good and explained things a lot better, and also your explanation of love of the truth was fine, i was just checking about that one, thankyou.


No worries i only hope the explanation explains what i think. :)




That would explain why he allows wars to happen, but i wouldn’t understand the need for his wrath, if he wants people to be loving and peaceful and follow jesus' teachings a war is not the best way, scaring them into it with wrath is not a good way to get people to learn because they want to learn, only because they feel they will be spared.


Well does God use war to motivate people to accept Jesus as Messiah or not? Lets look at an example of a war. Think of WW2. The most bloody area of conflict in that war was the battles involving Hitlers Nazi forces and Starlins Communist forces. Did God use Hitlers Nazi army and His SS divisions as implements of His wrath against Starlins communist army and His fanatical Red Guards? Or Did God use Starlins Communist army and His fanatical Red Guards to carry His wrath against Hitlers Nazi army and His SS divisions? Both Hitler and starlin killed Christians, if i was living in those times and in either of those nations i would refuse to join the armed forces of either and both systems would have imprisoned me either in a concentration camp or in a gulag prison. Anyone refusing to take part in military service no matter what there reason would face persecution and usually death. Both Starlin and Hitler where anti-christs. and their loyal populations who also took part in their crimes. So God used both systems to carry out his wrath on each other by allowing Hitler to try to fulfill His desire to create a nazi super power in Europe. The battles on the eastern front where the most vicious in the war No mercy was shown to prisoners or the civilian populations. So God used both forces as a tool of His wrath on each other. Now was the point of the exercise to bring them to believe in God through fear?? I have no doubt that some people caught up in that terrible war would have turned to God and renounced their former evil ways but they would have been shot by either by the Gestapo or the NKVD men so they would not have been spared. i do not think many of Hitlers SS men or Starlins Red Guards would have ever renounced their evil ways.




""But He does not choose to Use Christians as and implement of His wrath upon the world. He uses us as His ambassadors to give the message of forgiveness to those who will hear it. For a Christian to die is nothing important, for we have eternity with God.""

Depending on any sins committed i shall presume?


You presume wrongly. Jesus said there was only one sin that would never be forgiven men, "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit" All Other sins are forgiven those who repent and accept The Word of God, Jesus, as Messiah. God is just and merciful these two concepts are not contradictory because it is Just to have forgiveness on those who acknowledge the evil of there wrong doings and are repentant of heart. To agree with the Will of God is to be justified in Spirit.




I think all death is a tragedy as we don’t know for certain what is there for us afterwards, i would hate for people to die believing there was something more if there wasnt.


What would i loose if i died and ceased to exist? would i not know love in this life? would i not know joy? would i not enjoy good food? would i not have danced with happiness? What pain or regret would i have if i died and ceased to exist? Non whatsoever. ;)

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

adstar you pointed out one battle during the second world war, what of all the other wars and now name the ones, that were started by and due to religion, far too many.
your statement is invalid. adstar (99% of wars were directly due to religion). But He does not choose to Use Christians as an implement of His wrath upon the world. He uses us as His ambassadors to give the message of forgiveness to those who will hear it. For a Christian to die is nothing important, for we have eternity with God. this is why you christians will never respect life, because you think there something better.
thats why there will always be wars, as long as theres religion.
What would i loose if i died and ceased to exist? would i not know love in this life? would i not know joy? would i not enjoy good food? would i not have danced with happiness? What pain or regret would i have if i died and ceased to exist? Non whatsoever now apply that to a victim of war or murder, and then tell us what they have lost, especially a child.
it's not the life you take, it's also the lives you ruin.