One of my long time friends is being sucked in to this scam. He is exhibiting all of the classical symptoms
-spending all of his time on the 'business'
-calling friends/family negative, wierd, etc
-says he loves being around 'winners' at the meeting. It gives him confidence :confused:

I have tried explaining how the scam works, but he is unwilling to listen. Worst part is, he was sucked in by his roomate from real work who has basically 24hrs a day to brainwash and be brainwashed in return.

This guy has had shitty parents and worked real hard to get where he is, and I can't bear to see these parasite fuckers ruin his life by holding a carrot over his head. What can a friend do?

Yeah this scam is going to do some real damage to your freind. you need to find a way of removing him from this poison quickly as it is going to take his money, and possibly get him into some trouble

im sorry i cant help more but im not too sure how to get him out of this before he loses everything

Explain to us this scam, I've never heard of it.

Maybe if you give him more information he will see the 'business' differently. The following link has much information about quixtar and includes a transcript from a Dateline special exposing the company's method.

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Amway/

Sargentlard

This should explain it: http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4375477/

1. They brainwash people into believing they are a new type of business that has never been done before.
2. They brainwash stupid people that know nothing about business into thinking what they will learn business from them.
3. They brainwash people into thinking they are working themselves.
4. They brainwash people into beliveing their products are high quality.
5. The brain wash people into purchasing these products, and going out and selling them.
6. They brainwash people into recruiting more sales staff on the basis that they can sit around, and do nothing making pure commission off of them.
7. Most of all, they brainwash people into claiming anybody against them is being negative and pessemistic about their success.
8. They brainwash people into thinking they are managers, then tell you not to talk about it to anybody because you might give them wrong information. Any new recruits have to be sent straight to the office to experience the brainwashing program.


On the contrary, anybody can be very successful provided they are running their business well. What people do not know is that they can set up their own business, deal with a supplier, and sell their own goods without dealing with these pyramid scams.

Most of the people that work for these pyramids are nonbusiness wacks. They know nothing about business. They have no clue how to start a business, run a business, or what a business is. These ignorant mofos are lead to believe they will be learning about business etc.

Do not deal with them. Do not deal with anybody offering a lucrative business program. Their job is to sell you the business program. If their business was lucrative, they would not be in the business of selling you business programs. Moreover, selling you business programs about how to start a lucrative business in selling lucrative business programs.

I's simple, tell him to go round the house of whoever is above him in the pyramid. Tell him, if he works as long hours and as hard as they do, he'll probably be driving the shitty car parked outside in five years.

Surely you can solve this with math.

If 1 person had to recruit just 6 people to be doing well and those 6 people have to recuit 6 people and so on. If you take this chain just 10 stages then you would need 60466176 people. Amway has been going for many years I am sure that stage 10 would have been passed many years ago if it really worked. Even to say it is only at stage 12 it would come out at 2.17678234e+09 people needed. I think you will find that this is more people than are on the earth. Amway can never work just tell him to do the maths.

I know people who have been in the same position as your friend it become a way of life for these people. The business does work for the few at the very top who joined or set up the company years ago. But for people joining now it's just a self perpetuating con.

Surely there must be an online forum of Amway victims?

Surely you can solve this with math..

Sadly, it's akin to a religion to those involved, and 'doing the maths' is just being a naysayer, and bordering on heresy. Trust me, I've 'done the maths' at an Amway seller, and it fell on stony ground.

This guy tried to do a sell up job on a friend of my girlfriend. Now, not being daft, said friend of gf asked us round to watch his presentation about 'Network Sales'. I sat, I took notes, I did the maths, and I asked him what the population of our town was. He answered, and I pointed out that he couldn't get beyond level 4 in this town, if he was at the top of the pyramid, because there weren't enough people to be staff, let alone customers. Of course, he wasn't top of the pyramid, he was somebody elses bitch, and if he only wanted six customers, how much profit would he make (that was an entire layer deleted). Basically, I showed him that with 100% market saturation of his products (impossible) he'd never make a living wage at the level he was at, and that he had nowhere else to go. His last words to me as he left 'well, if you reconsider, you have my details'. He just didn't understand the maths. They sure do pick the right recruits for this shit.

One of my long time friends is being sucked in to this scam. I have tried explaining how the scam works, but he is unwilling to listen.

Do you wish to take away his freedom to make his own choices? Why?

He's made his choice, you've tried to explain, he hasn't listened.

The next step is to force him to change his mind ....or shoot him, perhaps? Use drugs? Tie him up and keep him under lock and key? Hang him? Cut out the "free will" part of his brain?

Baron Max

Do you wish to take away his freedom to make his own choices? Why?

He's made his choice, you've tried to explain, he hasn't listened.

The next step is to force him to change his mind ....or shoot him, perhaps? Use drugs? Tie him up and keep him under lock and key? Hang him? Cut out the "free will" part of his brain?

Baron Max
I assume he cares about his friend.

I assume he cares about his friend.

Yeah, apparently cares enough to try to take away his right to choose for himself! Is that very nice?

Baron Max

How is he taking away his right? The guy would have to make up his own mind up ultimately.

Yeah, apparently cares enough to try to take away his right to choose for himself! Is that very nice?
Firstly, no-one but you is talking about forcing anyone. Don't go for a false dilemma, it's a cheap tactic.
Secondly, if he lived by himself, it would be one thing, but if he has a family who are dependent upon his income, then they are at risk from his poor decisions, and we should at least try and help those who are blameless in this.

..., but if he has a family who are dependent upon his income, then they are at risk from his poor decisions, and we should at least try and help those who are blameless in this.

The guy said he's tried to help, tried to explain the situation, and apparently from his post, he's tried everything to the point of coming here to ask for more help. I can only take that kind of attitude as him trying to reverse-brainwash the guy! And I don't think that's very nice, regardless of the situation.

Baron Max

You can't very well claim that he's brainwashed and has freedom of choice, as the brainwashing significantly affects his ability to make rational judgements. And while it may not be very nice in your opinion to try and help him to make a rational decision, you're assuming that he chose to be brainwashed. If the brainwashing was not his choice, then he deserves help, wouldn't you say?

Overriding all this of course, is the fact that you seem to place one man's 'freedom' over the concerns of his family - don't you feel that their many needs outweigh his sole need?

You can't very well claim that he's brainwashed and has freedom of choice, as the brainwashing significantly affects his ability to make rational judgements.

Ahh, so you're taking that as a scientific fact that he's been actually and truly "brainwashed"?? I just took it as a sensationalistic term so as to make his point.

If that's the cases, and there's scientific evidence, then I agree with you.

...you seem to place one man's 'freedom' over the concerns of his family - don't you feel that their many needs outweigh his sole need?

Hmm, isn't the bigger problem ....who makes that determination? If we go with the man's freedoms, then his family could suffer. But if we go with the family's needs, then we're effectively taking away the man's freedoms. Interesting dilemma, huh?

But I have to go with the man's freedom ...because he AND the woman both made their free choices ...so we have to assume that she knew and was willing to accept the consequences of her actions. Yep, gotta' go with the man's freedoms first.

Baron Max

However, children in the family would not have made a choice.

But I have to go with the man's freedom ...because he AND the woman both made their free choicesSo men who beat their wives shouldn't be punished?

Isn't there a Simpson's episode about this? Maybe you can find it and show him.

Yes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Joy_of_Sect

However, children in the family would not have made a choice.

Children under the age of 18 (16 in some places) don't have that choice. The parents make their choices for them ...legally.

So men who beat their wives shouldn't be punished?

All husbands are free to beat the fuck outta' their wives if they so choose ...but I didn't say, nor ever would, that they shouldn't be arrested, taken to trial and punished for it. But before they actually do it, yes, they have that choice, that freedom.

Baron Max

But I have to go with the man's freedom ...because he AND the woman both made their free choices ...so we have to assume that she knew and was willing to accept the consequences of her actions. Yep, gotta' go with the man's freedoms first.No, you stated that the wife has made a choice, so we should not restrict her husband's actions, even if they pose her risk. I think we can agree that arrest and imprisonment restrict freedom somewhat.

No, you stated that the wife has made a choice, so we should not restrict her husband's actions, even if they pose her risk. I think we can agree that arrest and imprisonment restrict freedom somewhat.

You're trying to read INTO something I said, not what I said. Try again.

Baron Max

What you can do for your friend is to supply him with as much information as you can about the concept of pyramid selling or MLM (just google pyramid scams) and then leave him alone. The chance is that he won't listen to you and won't be willing to read anything that is negative or dismissive about his new found get-rich-quick scheme because, as you are aware, your friend's brain has been hijacked by the perpetrators of the scheme.

If your friend has any sense, and after he has wasted a great deal of his time and a bit of his money, he will eventually realise the folly of his ways and leave the scam-mongers a wiser man.

..... he will eventually realise the folly of his ways and leave the scam-mongers a wiser man.
....but a poorer one.

....but a poorer one.

Life in a free nation is full of choices. And choices are often the cause of great wealth and happiness, and sometimes dire consequences. But when we begin to take away those choices, and the subsequent consequences, we're also taking away some of the freedoms.

Taking a shit is good and feels good, but doing that in the middle of the living room has consequences. So even where to shit is both a freedom and a consequence for the free choice.

Baron Max

....but a poorer one.

Everybody has to pay for education, one way or another.

Do you wish to take away his freedom to make his own choices? Why?

He's made his choice, you've tried to explain, he hasn't listened.

The next step is to force him to change his mind ....or shoot him, perhaps? Use drugs? Tie him up and keep him under lock and key? Hang him? Cut out the "free will" part of his brain?

Baron Max

He hasn't made a choice, he has been brainwashed, manipulated by appeals to emotion. If I do not intervene, this scam has the potential to destroy his life.


If that's the cases, and there's scientific evidence, then I agree with you.
If there's a flock of velociraptors running towards me, I don't scientifically check their chromosomes. I pull out a fucking flamethower.

Firstly, no-one but you is talking about forcing anyone. Don't go for a false dilemma, it's a cheap tactic.
Secondly, if he lived by himself, it would be one thing, but if he has a family who are dependent upon his income, then they are at risk from his poor decisions, and we should at least try and help those who are blameless in this.

Fortunately, he doesn't have a family to support.

Spidergoat,
Brilliant! I shall try that :m:

tablariddim,
Exactly right, he won't listen to a single dismissive thing. It could be *years* before he smartens up. There has to be a way to speed up the process.. maybe, go to a meeting and debunk them?

Instead of telling him he's wrong, it''s a scam, ask him how much he's made, mow much he's spent on the seminars etc, and what he feels he got from the seminars that helped his business. Hopefully you'll help him see that he's making a loss.
If not, the main thing is to get him not to buy the course materials - persuade him to try for a month without seminars, and see what difference it makes to his profits.

I've never heard of Quixstar but Amway has been around for decades. The key question about any MLM (multi-level marketing) business is: Are they selling a decent product? Avon and Mary Kay cosmetics are decent. Amway household products are decent. I'm not saying they're exceptional but at least they perform the tasks for which they are marketed. Amway in fact used to have some products that filled a market niche for which there was little competition, although that's no longer true.

Other MLM companies sell nothing, or next to nothing. Some put on offshore (that's a warning sign, why can't they hold them on U.S. soil?) "business" conferences that are nothing but fairs for coin dealers, high-risk equity brokers, overly creative tax shelters, and Nigerian foreign ministers to market their own wares to the new members. All the MLM company actually sells is memberships, and they get a cut of the proceeds from the conference tickets. Which means they're just churning their members' money and taking a big bite out of it. That is a net drain on the GDP, the same as the government's MLM civil service market.

If your company is selling a genuine product or service, then at least it's participating in the economy, contributing to the GDP. Everything else is just details. The number of levels of management, the percentage of the gross profit on each sale that goes into the pocket of the person who did the work of making the sale, the manuals, the conference calls for training and new product orientation, the lists of hot prospects, the trust-fall retreats for building teamwork... every company does many of those things and a lot of perfectly respectable companies do way too many of them, waste a lot of money, and demoralize their staff.

Some companies treat their staff rather nicely, but cheat the crap out of their customers and break the laws in important ways whenever it suits them.

Many of the people who join MLM organizations get a lot of social benefits from it. My wife and I joined a couple of them when we were young and foolish and we were genuinely impressed by the camaraderie. The frequent, not too distant conferences were kind of fun, not terribly expensive, and full of people with whom we had at least one thing in common so it was easy to hang out with them. There were a lot of lost souls there who drew strength from the collective.

I don't encourage people to join MLMs because the smoothest talkers rise to the top and the people at the bottom do a lot of work for not a lot of money. But in the grand scheme of things they're not nearly as pernicious to society as America's most popular religions.

tablariddim,
Exactly right, he won't listen to a single dismissive thing. It could be *years* before he smartens up. There has to be a way to speed up the process.. maybe, go to a meeting and debunk them?

DON'T go to a meeting and debunk them, you're liable to get beaten up or otherwise have your life made miserable. There's very serious money behind these companies and they have muscle.

If you can get your friend into a different environment for while (go on holiday or take a long weekend away with him) and get into a bonding situation, then you may just have a window of opportunity where he might be receptive to your advice and your written evidence that what he's into is just plain folly. But don't count on him changing his mind so easily.

I have some friends, highly educated and usually very sensible, whom after buying my succesful business, got a taste for money and wanted to make even more. They somehow got roped into a MLM enterprise selling water purifiers. They went to seminars, bought stock and hounded every friend and acquaintance they had, trying to get them to buy this stuff and to join in the scheme themselves. I resolutely refused to buy even one purifier and kept telling them that they would regret their enterprise (for all the usual reasons)and to leave it alone.

They wouldn't have any of it, they were defensive and got positively pissed off with me because I refused to join the scam. At the time, they never realised or could ever dream that it was such. I stopped seeing them regularly and eventually I moved to a different country so I don't know exactly when they realised their error, which eventually they did, but they never speak about it.