Friday Night Sermon -- Online Bible Study
From: www.NailScarred.net (http://www.NailScarred.net?sciforums.com)

Falling In Line
Special Edition Of The FNS

It's good to be back after these weeks of reflection and learning. I can't say that I had any great mystical moment of light shining down from Heaven with singing angels in the background to reveal some special meaning or teaching from God. What I can say is that, in that still small voice as the Bible tells us, in that gentle way, God has been gracious enough to learn me a thing or two. We're stepping outside of our study in 2 Corinthians because there are some things that I believe God would have me to say to you this day. You have to look into this closely. There's no special punch that's going to all of a sudden make things click in your life to be drawn from this message. If anything, this is a message that will encourage work and effort on each of our parts. If I have come to learn anything in these past weeks, I have learned that God IS Good! He is good to everyone! Especially to we that are of His Body whom it is that Trust in Christ, but, to every last person on this Planet, He is a gentle and loving God.

I want to start by giving a brief and truncated history of God's life since just prior to His creation of mankind. Please, keep in mind, this is the ISDAfied version. It's very generalized so, here goes:

1) God IS.
2) God makes man and a place for him to live and gives him a free will and makes him good.
3) Man rebels thereby producing and releasing a poisonous and corrosive toxin into all of God's creation. This toxin is called sin.
4) God the Creator / Caretaker puts on the hat of God the EMT (Emergency Medical Technician) in a disaster worse than all the flash floods, earthquakes, and meteor strikes rolled up into one. Every man existing and to ever exist is doomed to die. God the EMT like the EMT's we know today had to make some hard choices to make things right. He didn't just have to cut off some gangrenous legs or arms trapped in wreckage to save lives. The foul infection and the broken destruction left in the wake of the toxin called sin had actually spread throughout the world to such a degree so as to bring about the hard choice of which whole lives were to be cut off so as to save those that could and would be saved. Like the EMT's and good Samaritans of today that have been sued because of choices made in the course of saving life, God, since then, has been branded as brutal.
5) God carried forward those He had found in danger. He didn't just tell them not to pull out the IV. He didn't just require them to stay within the bounds of the treatment facilities. He didn't just tell them to take their medications and get their rest. God wasn't just saving bodies made of flesh! God directed people to Love Him! He demanded obedience as He lead them, not simply to feeling good, but, to the actual final healing to be administered by The Great Physician, Jesus Christ.
6) God, having performed well in triage, made a way through Christ, God come as man, to shield man from the eternal effects of the toxin. With those He saved, He established His hospital, the Church. He sent them to spread the cure. God, the same God He ever was and Ever will be, having made the cure for sin, sent out litter carriers into all the world to collect up those that could be and would be saved so that they might be brought to Christ for healing. God, the same God He ever was and Ever will be, the same God branded by man to be brutal and even two faced because He made those wise and hard choices, got the job done in spite of great turmoil and cost to Himself.
7) God IS. God continues to Save to this day.

All this in mind, we must be aware of something. What does this mean to me? Where do I fit in? For the answer to these great questions, I'm going to turn to a movie, a production of man that unwittingly shows forth many wonderful lessons of God. Many of you have been here long enough to have seen me do this before with a movie. This time, we may go deeper than the last.

Despite a few obviously useless scenes and words, if you have not seen the movie Pearl Harbor, I highly recommend it. I do not for the historical value. There's not much. The acting is wonderful. The visual aspect is stunning. The story is captivating. More so than this, the human drama is true to life. The human drama, in this movie, is where we'll be able to examine some core lessons of the Christian walk that are to be applied to everyday life. It doesn't matter if you haven't seen it and I'll not have to go into detail of all that happened. I'll warn you though. These lessons are easy to learn and hard to make use of. One thing or another has to give; our willingness to self or our willingness to be faithful to God.

<b>I've Got No Time To Stumble</b>

Here is a lesson that is full of anguish. Though I had been learning this, I have learned it more from the passing of my mother than at any time in my life. As I watched this movie, God only focused my thoughts on lessons He has taught. You might ask yourself, "How can a lesson on stumbling be learned from a movie about war?" I'll tell you. These men and women that day, they were not prepared for such an event as happened. Yet, being military, they had preparedness of some sort already pre-prescribed. All that did not live up to just the basic standard of military preparedness, when the attack came, were just useless fodder for the enemy.

1) Christians have got to be founded in the Basics before the attack comes if they are ever to stand in the heat of Spiritual Battle! Prayer to God and Study in the Word of God are our Basic training. Without this, you cannot even make the first step. You're only to be found cowering somewhere and useless.

Now, while this attack went on, there were some that were faithful and had stuck to their basic tanning The enemy prevailed against some and men fell all around them. The faithful pressed on to their goal to more greatly take the fight to the enemy.

2) We don't fight this battle on Satan's terms. He might launch a sneak attack but, we've got to be striving to get to our guns and rally the troops too. There are no Lone Rangers or Rambo Christians. We, too, do not have time to sit and lament the loss of one that was once faithful but is now in sin. We have to press forward in taking the fight to the enemy. The Word of God is our gun. Truth is our ammo. Prayer is the adrenaline that keeps our feet under us so we can keep on keeping on! For every one of us that falls, at least one other person is now left unprotected. For every one of us that falls because we fail to pray, don't study the Word, or refuse to tell the Truth, which is to share the Gospel, that's at least one more demonic stronghold, one more enemy fighter, one more noncombatant (lost person) that will be slain, and one more Christian Brother or Sister put in danger.

Prepare well NOW! We do not know when the attack will come. Gain ground NOW! Every life saved by the Gospel is a life not to be taken by the enemy! As always, remember, other people's lives are depending upon your actions. I cannot stress enough. Do IT and Do IT again when it comes to telling the Truth on God! If you knock on 1000 doors and don't get one positive response, knock on 1000 more. Just be sure to share the Gospel at every one. That's how my litter carriers brought me to Christ. They knocked on a door and found me standing there dead! Is it worth it to save just one life? Because of them, and the fellow Christians they kept in company with, my mother, then my brother and sister, then my step-father and others from there have been Saved. Are 1000 rejections worth the reward of just one life? Your answer had better be, "YES"! Then, let me ask you something. Have your actions been in agreement with the answer you just gave? If, "YES", do it again. If, "NO", get your tail in gear. Practice the basics. Prayer, Study the Word, Tell the Truth!

<b>Keep Good Company</b>

Anyone that has ever seen battle or even prepared for battle as a member of the military can tell you that you live and die by those around you. A weak willed commander or even an inept private can spell disaster for your unit. When the battle rages and the heat is on, all you have to turn to in the physical realm are those you surround yourself with. Choose well! Choose well who you run to and who you call on to cover your rear. Choose poorly and the enemy on your tail might not be the one getting shot down by your friends. They might just end up shooting you.

Now, we could dig around for many more things to say but, I'm not interested in just looking wise here. I think it's easy to answer those two questions now. To me it means Life or Death. I fit in so that, to others, I can also mean Life.

KJV
Book: Psalms
Chapter: 15
A Psalm of David
1 LORD, who shall abide in thy tabernacle? who shall dwell in thy holy hill?
2 He that walketh uprightly, and worketh righteousness, and speaketh the truth in his heart.
3 He that backbiteth not with his tongue, nor doeth evil to his neighbour, nor taketh up a reproach against his neighbour.
4 In whose eyes a vile person is contemned; but he honoureth them that fear the LORD. He that sweareth to his own hurt, and changeth not.
5 He that putteth not out his money to usury, nor taketh reward against the innocent. He that doeth these things shall never be moved.

NLT
Book: Psalms
Chapter: 15
1 A psalm of David. Who may worship in your sanctuary, LORD? Who may enter your presence on your holy hill?
2 Those who lead blameless lives and do what is right, speaking the truth from sincere hearts.
3 Those who refuse to slander others or harm their neighbors or speak evil of their friends.
4 Those who despise persistent sinners, and honor the faithful followers of the LORD and keep their promises even when it hurts.
5 Those who do not charge interest on the money they lend, and who refuse to accept bribes to testify against the innocent. Such people will stand firm forever.

OK., I know it looks like we just fell into a totally different FNS. Don't worry we didn't. We just fell into a longer one is all. This is a snapshot of the resulting person that is prepared in the basics of Prayer and Bible Study. This is a snapshot of the person you want to have fighting on your team. This is a snapshot of the person you want to become. This is a snapshot of the person you want to marry. This is a snapshot of the person you want teaching your children. This is even a snapshot of the person you want fixing your car. What God wants for us should be all invasive in our lives. We do not live lives of a battle here and a battle there and rest between. Always, there is someone slipping off into hell. Always, there is a fool believing a lie. Always, and my crowd in West Virginia will love this, there's a chance to fire your guns for God. Lay down that suppression fire, that Truth of God. The Word is your gun! The Truth is your ammo! Prayer is your life! Snipe at the devil every chance you get!

There's another pressing question that all this discussion brings about. For this, I'm going to pull up an old example I've given. The question is a simple one. Why didn't God just get rid of man when man unleashed sin? I'm going to share with you a question and answer session I had with someone online Aug of 1999. I hope this helps.

<A HREF="http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=2266" FONT="1">To Read The Whole Session</A>

<B>Q:</B> Basically about the meaning of life. In your opinion why did God create humans?
<B>A:</B> Corp.Hudson's answer was actually accurate to a degree. God has not left us totally in the dark. We see through a glass darkly,... not a brick wall. To add to it, He creates because He is all good and good desires to not be contained up in oneself. There being no one else, He made plenty of someone's to share good with. Who can know the whys to His types of designs. He's very creative.

<B>Q:</B> In your opinion what was the reason for this?
<B>A:</B> Same answer.

<B>Q:</B> Why the need for us to accept him?
<B>A:</B> A master hacker (Satan) has infected us with the worst software virus (Sin) known to ever exist. It's fouled up our cpu's (Minds) and will eventually crash our hard drives (Bodies). If we don't accept the patch (Jesus) from the manufacturer (God), we'll never process anything right and our best performance level (The lives we were intended to live) will never be met. It's funny. We wouldn't accept our own behavior from our computers. Yet, somehow, we expect God to accept this poor performance from us.

<B>Q:</B> Why does God want to be with us so badly after we die?
<B>A:</B> Try and build a computer from the ground up. I mean straight from nothing. You have to even make the resistors, capacitors, and what not. Painfully labor through the planning. Go through all of the soddering, wiring, and so forth. Personally design and select everything that you want to have in it as hardware. Design the OS from your own wisdom and give it life to flow through the cpu that you created with no help from anyone. Now, tell me. When it is all complete, is there a sense of satisfaction to be had? Would you not take time to admire the work of your own creation? It is a truth that you would be more fond of that computer than any other. Now, with the modem that you created, allow your creation to reach out into the world wide web. When that master hacker attacks your system, despite your safeguards, will you not be distraught? Will you not fight to get your creation back to it's original form? Will you not also make provision so that once you restore your creation, you can also keep the master hacker from ever attacking your restored creation again? We all understand, in terms of computers, the rational for virus cleaning and software upgrades. Well, God, having created us from the nothing up, is quite fond of us. He is willing to fight tooth and nail for us. He Loves us dearly and had that Love even before He made us!!! His goal is the same. He wants to clean the virus out of our system with the Blood of Christ. He also wants to upgrade us so that we can function as we were designed from the start. The upgrade is by His Holy Spirit living within us. When He fixes us, that is the point when His children die. We are dead to the ways of the world and that old virus called sin! AMEN!!! He raises up the New Man, Christian version 5.0!!! He'll go 0-Prayer in less than 2 seconds. He comes complete with GPS (Godly Positioning System). There's even free fuel and maintenance for life! God's goal was never to be with us after we die in the flesh. His goal was always to be with us IN LIFE!!!

<B>Q:</B> Why make us living humans then make us die in order for us to be with him in the first place if he really wanted to be with us, and not just put us through a test to see if we make the grade?
<B>A:</B> God's work, the work He put so much effort into, just like your own work, has value. To have value is to have a cost. God's system is a system of payment for this reason. The wages of sin is death. God did not design us to die. Sin, being malignant, had caused us degradation. We are tainted with it and our value is lost. Just as the tiny seed will grow into a great tree, the tiny seed of sin will grow into great destruction.

<b>Romans 5</b>

<b>15</b> But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
<b>16</b> And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

Sin = Order to Mass Disorder

Jesus = Mass Disorder to Order

God still sees the value of what we were and what we can be. Incidentally, that's why God flooded the world. With man's heart continually upon sin, there was no longer any potential value in what He could be. He was rotten to the core. Enough of that commercial though. We were never supposed to die. We were always supposed to have the same intimate contact with God that Adam had prior to being booted out of the garden. God gave us a free will. He did not give us a chance to choose right and wrong. He placed before us the choice to choose right. However, the giving of a chance to choose right also contains the chance not to choose it. No other choice needs bee given. Furthermore, there was no special power in the fruit on that tree. God gave the right choice to follow His direction and stay away from that tree. Now that we find that it burns, we want to blame God for having the rule not to have anything to do with that tree in the first place. That's as foolish as a murderer saying that if it weren't for the laws against murder, he wouldn't have done it. It's that crazy! Yet, we use that same basically stupid logic in relating to God. Heck, we do it all over. Just look at everyone that wants to legalize drugs because they think that if it wasn't marked as illegal, there'd be no problem at all. Would you like a drug user to be your bus driver, surgeon, accountant, chiropractor, care giver, baby sitter, or judge? If God allowed just any old thing, He would be guilty of doing the same thing. He is working properly. We are malfunctioned. If, in our cpu's (Minds), we refuse to accept the upgrade (Holy Spirit) by way of His fix (Jesus), our hard drives (Bodies) are doomed to crash (Die) and scatter our data (Spirits) into oblivion (Hell). God has a recovery program that takes effect before the crash,... and PRAISE GOD that He will provide a New Body, one that is incorruptible, to those that have accepted the upgrade.

Fear the Day or the Lord when His righteous judgement will come and be wise to accept His salvation,

ISDAMan

<A HREF="http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=2266" FONT="1">To Read The Whole Session</A>

Another question is, "How is it that Satan and evil men get to have so much power in the world?" I have another old answer of mine shared in a discussion online.

You have a choice as weather or not to take another breath. You can do it or you can drown in the tub or do any number of things. None of these things was given so you could kill yourself. Yet, by your own choice, you can. Even more, you only have access to the things God first provided you. You can create no new matter with which to halt your next breath. This existence belongs to God. The interaction He allows us to have through our own choices is often confused for power. For Satan, it is the same.

He has no real power. He is a bug trapped in a jar. So, you have a choice. You WILL fall in line. Only, will yours be a falling in place into proper order or a stumbling and a crash away from God. For that reason, I leave you with this:

ACTS 10:35-36, NLT
In every nation he accepts those who fear him and do what is right. I'm sure you have heard about the Good News for the people of Israel – that there is peace with God through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all.

Christian website of the week: WATCHMAN FELLOWSHIP (http://www.watchman.org/?www.nailscarred.net-ChristianSiteOfTheWeek06-15-01)

Rather than allow these irrational ramblings go unanswered I offer this alternative narration and commentary for the benefit of the rational among us.

It's good to be back after these weeks of reflection and learning. I can't say that I had any great mystical moment of light shining down from Heaven with singing angels in the background to reveal some special meaning or teaching from God. You experienced a moment of sanity then.

If I have come to learn anything in these past weeks, I have learned that God IS Good! He is good to everyone! Especially to we that are of His Body whom it is that Trust in Christ, but, to every last person on this Planet, He is a gentle and loving God. The futile dreams of one who has lost total contact with reality. Wake from your dream and face the real world.

1) God IS. This is the quintessential claim of the irrational dreamer. The claim is unsubstantiated by any proofs of any type, from the present or from the past known history of mankind. Those that insist on believing this fantasy are at the very least disturbingly irrational, and most likely weak-minded, and appear to have a terror of facing reality. They prefer to live in a dreamlike state and ignore the responsibilities of being a human.

2) God makes man and a place for him to live and gives him a free will and makes him good. This is the fairy story told to children who are unable to comprehend the realities and science of the evolutionary model. It is wholly inappropriate for adults to even consider this feeble-minded childish gibberish as if it were truth. I should also point out that human free will remains paradoxical if there were to be an omniscient creator. Either man has free will and there is no omniscient creator god, or an omniscient creator god exists and man has no free will. It is not possible for both claims to be true.

3) Man rebels thereby producing and releasing a poisonous and corrosive toxin into all of God's creation. This toxin is called sin. Man evolved and is still rapidly evolving. During this process man is learning how to survive by healthy experimentation and exploration of the world and surrounding universe. Without any originating guidance man has no choice but to learn the hard way, by making errors, by discovering the bad and the good and the contrast between the two helps him to comprehend the benefits and weaknesses of the two approaches. The concept of a sin (disobedience to a god) stems from a fear of authority held my many weak-minded people. They are unable to escape from their child state where a dominant parent or authority figure overwhelmed them or they are simply too weak willed to realize their own capacity for independent thought.

4) God the Creator / Caretaker puts on the hat of God the EMT (Emergency Medical Technician) in a disaster worse than all the flash floods, earthquakes, and meteor strikes rolled up into one. Every man existing and to ever exist is doomed to die. God the EMT like the EMT's we know today had to make some hard choices to make things right. He didn't just have to cut off some gangrenous legs or arms trapped in wreckage to save lives. The foul infection and the broken destruction left in the wake of the toxin called sin had actually spread throughout the world to such a degree so as to bring about the hard choice of which whole lives were to be cut off so as to save those that could and would be saved. Like the EMT's and good Samaritans of today that have been sued because of choices made in the course of saving life, God, since then, has been branded as brutal. If any of this fantasy were true it could only mean that God had made an almighty mistake in his early creation. For a being that is meant to be perfect then to have to effectively start over can only mean that he screwed up big time. The best analogy is that of a spoilt child who was so dissatisfied with his stack of toy bricks that he knocked over his crumbling tower in a rebellious tantrum and tried to begin again.

5) God carried forward those He had found in danger. He didn't just tell them not to pull out the IV. He didn't just require them to stay within the bounds of the treatment facilities. He didn't just tell them to take their medications and get their rest. God wasn't just saving bodies made of flesh! God directed people to Love Him! He demanded obedience as He lead them, not simply to feeling good, but, to the actual final healing to be administered by The Great Physician, Jesus Christ. And here we see the essential evil basis for Christianity – absolute tyranny and subjugation of humanity. So if I order my partner to love me then, well, right, I can see that working. You can’t order someone to love you. Love has to be earned, and that often takes hard work. If God is so weak that he cannot clearly reveal his value and that he might be worthy of love without compulsion then he has no value. The entire basis for Christianity is essentially one of ‘do what I say or else I will torture you in torment for eternity’. This is the description of the oppressor and tyrant – a wholly repugnant concept and should be met with our total contempt.

6) God, having performed well in triage, made a way through Christ, God come as man, to shield man from the eternal effects of the toxin. With those He saved, He established His hospital, the Church. He sent them to spread the cure. God, the same God He ever was and Ever will be, having made the cure for sin, sent out litter carriers into all the world to collect up those that could be and would be saved so that they might be brought to Christ for healing. God, the same God He ever was and Ever will be, the same God branded by man to be brutal and even two faced because He made those wise and hard choices, got the job done in spite of great turmoil and cost to Himself. That seems to be no more than meaningless drivel. Given his alleged perfect knowledge and wisdom it is a shame that such a being did not spend time teaching that wisdom so that man might heal himself. Even today we know that if you continue to give food to the hungry they will become dependent on those gifts and never learn to fend for themselves. So given the past few thousand years two thirds of the population of this planet still does not recognize Christianity and its deity as anything of value. So what does that say for such an alleged perfect being? Not only did he mess up with his early attempts at creation but also now he is unable to teach or transfer his alleged wisdom. And of course the concept of the Greek Christ (Messiah), or the Hebrew Jesus (Savior), as some form of god on earth is total mythology with no independent substantiated evidence.

7) God IS. God continues to Save to this day. A fantasy dream for the weak minded lost in their own irrational world of self-delusion.

I couldn’t find anything else marginally intelligible in the remainder of the sermon worthy of comment.

Cris

Of that rather efforted tantrum of childhood glories of God, well, it's sad seeing all that effort go to waste. I love the way Christians criticize the infidel observers for considering too many extra-biblical issues or for interpreting too creatively. Thanks to ISDAMan, we have no need to give a rip about charges of fancy, as the child-abuse-endorsing preacher has spun a web more ridiculous than any I've ever cared to pay attention to. When the BS factor rose anywhere near that level, the child-me learned quickly to distrust the Christian honesty.

But I wanted to make a single point about Satan as a hacker: That only works because God designed the Universe that way. Microsoft Macro viruses? (e.g. "I Love You") They only recently became possible against Macintoshes (Macsoft tech support got reports of one the other day for OSX, but an associate who works for one of the companies contracting Macsoft's tech support hasn't shared te details, and didn't seem particularly concerned, since Puma ships soon) as it takes sloppy code on the part of the application (Outlook) designer (Bill Gates). The Macro viruses come from crappy code in the application that allows someone other than the user to create this kind of damage.

If Satan is a master hacker, then maybe God should have written better code.

If there's one thing Christians do well, it's demonstrate how damn lazy God is. God, like Bill, has apparently left some shortcomings in the code for the master-hacker to exploit. How stupid is that? Well, how do you feel when you get a message from your IS/IT that the system's infected and you have to stop doing your job for awhile (let me note my sympathy for the underwriters and adjusters that day; people with wrecked houses and smashed cars and injured workers don't really care about the system being down--they want someone to handle their issues, which cannot happen anymore without the network).

But really: God was stoned when he wrote the original app. He was caffeine-buzzed when he wrote the patch. Is it any wonder Satan hasn't had to slow down to write better viruses against the network?

A personal note to ISDAMan: Your God has sold you out time and time again. From the inception of humanity, God has abused and economized the design. Sin in the world is a result of God's will, and it requires psychosis to believe any other way. Man is no more responsible for sin than clouds are for rain. It just happens, dude. Get over it and start worrying about the issues of God's universe that you can change. Until you can, you're simply preaching to people that they need to stop thinking for themselves (sacrifice of the intellect) and begin hurting themselves by submitting to a God who blames everyone but himself for product failures that only he can correct or cause. Really, ISDA, your God has inspired you some pretty low moments in your sermons. This one, for all your effort and time, aspires to be laughable at best. God the designer, set it up so that the hacker could do his work.

--Tiassa :cool:

Cris & tiassa,

It's good that you have read the truth. It is my prayer that one day, because of God changing your hearts, you will understand and also have the assurance of eternal life that Christ gives freely. The best that I can do is to pray for you.

Dear Father,

These two and many others are so very hostile against You. They look to everything under the sun to give them reason except You and still cannot tare themselves away from the the fact that You exist and are powerful and are THE Power of the universe. Because You are a patient God, continue to be kind to them. Please, give them peace from the demonic influences that would have them to want to believe a lie. They know You are here. That is why they rail against You so even though they claim You do not exist. Their very words show their turmoil and their inner oppression. I ask you Lord, my God who has power over all evil and all sin, call out to these to take them away from sin and do not give up on them.

By Christ who leads me I pray.
I Thank You Lord!

In closing, I leave you with this. To belittle is to be-little. Think on this. I will continue to pray for you.

God Bless You Friends,
ISDAMan

You are christain and hence should believe that your God knows everything right???
why is it that you presume to explain the mind's and intentions of Tiassa and Cris to your God through your prayer??? Doesn't that act support the fact that YOU don't believe all the christain rubbish put forward as truth. Naughty Naughty, I hope your God didn't see it as an insult....

Rambler,

Look up the word "intercessor".

God Bless You
ISDAMan

ISDA--

What disgusts me most about your ministry is your hatred of the human spirit; what amuses me most is your sense of hypocrisy.

Such irresponsible religion, that you would cast your spells and aim them at Cris or myself. Neither of us, I'm sure, fear the influence of your shallow, black magick. If I might assume an atheist perspective, there is nothing in your bad poetry to fear whatsoever. To stand within my own Universe of quiet miracles, the hypocrisy of your black magick prevents its efficacy.

Among atheists, there is no cause to pray for anyone. This is clear, black and white, and hopefully as simple as it should be.

But among theists who are familiar with the realm of the magickal, very few are so irresponsible as to directly engage in black magick, and most who do by accident work feverishly to amend the situation before any further consequences result.

Your black magick--to assume persons unfit as Nature made them, and then to attempt to effect supernatural force of change upon them--is no less repugnant than the cultist rape-magickers whom Christians wish all pagans would be.

The hatred of your arrogance is justified only by your fantasies of God, and that God, as history has shown, is as arbitrarily and hatefully conceived as any other willful detriment. Analogously, you are medicating the patient against his will, and without proper cause before the law. You are assaulting a person with your prayers. Let us hope for your sake that your God sees the depth of your darkness and chooses instead to effect that magick where it is most needed: in the heart of the petitioner.In closing, I leave you with this. To belittle is to be-little. Think on this. I will continue to pray for you. Well, would you rather I consider you cruelly-intended or just plain stupid? How contradictory can you be? Or is it that you wanted to establish that belittlement is belittlement so that we all know what you're hoping to accomplish while declaring people unfit to be themselves?

To the other, I'm leaning toward stupidity: when you prayed to your God, you prayed, as I read it, that he fix his mistakes.

I mean, really ... what the hell were you thinking?

--Tiassa :cool:

And that's the other thing I noticed. What, are you lazy? Why is it that when presented with an intellectual consideration, you resort to faith, and in this case sorcery? Is it that you're incapable of operating amid such knowledge, or that you're unwilling? Is it that you're afraid of the intellect, since you so readily sacrificed yours to God? Or do you truly have nothing more in the library? For what reason can you not extend your perceptions of God beyond what was "known" two-thousand years ago? I do not understand the psychological frame which inspires someone to couch themselves amid superstition for no apparently better reason than to feel better about the bad choices one has made. You sound like a bully running to your Daddy because someone won't take your shite. But as has become quite apparent recently at Sciforums, this is to be expected of such faiths as those similar to yours. I expect nothing else from you than that which you and your fellow sorcerers repeatedly demonstrate.

Surprise me for once. Really. It'll do a truckload of good for my perception of your God.

I promised your God a long time ago that I wouldn't go out of my way to embarrass him; given that I'm not even of the faith, I wonder what the hell your excuse is.

--Tiassa :cool:

tiassa,

My thoughts: God most certainly needs to bless you!

God Bless You!
ISDAMan

I looked it up.

So as long as you assume the role of mediator you can also assume that your God still needs to have the minds of others explained to it??? As I said hope your God didn't get offended you still explained the thoughts and intentions of Cris and Tiassa to your God.... or was the pray intended for the SciForums audience instead of your God???

My thoughts: God most certainly needs to bless you!So as long as we all agree, which is it? Are you lazy? Stupid? Cruel-intentioned?

Oh, that's right ... you don't need to make sense: you're just misunderstood.

--Tiassa :cool:

God Bless You!

Ah ISDAMan,

You are priceless, and wonderfully predictable.

If you had any real trust in your god and believed your own sermons you would not have displayed your uncontrollable egotistical pride and contempt for tiassa and me by revealing a prayer for us. A true believer and one who had real feelings for his fellow man would have prayed privately. If you had any trust in prayer and its powers then presumably a private prayer for us, strictly from your perspective, would have achieved the desired effect.

But you must have realized that we could only see a public prayer for us as a very unwelcome offering and a very real insult. Yet you proceeded anyway; that is pride at its most distasteful, arrogance at its worst and condescension in the extreme. You are claiming and shouting to the world that you have no doubt you are our superior and feel obliged to invoke medieval mystical practices to purify us.

You should have been able to judge from my earlier posts that I view your god, if he were to exist, as an abhorrent tyrant, and your Christian fantasy dreams and religious doctrines among the most evil influences on mankind. But if by some obscure chance your god exists then I would certainly not want anyone to direct his hate in my direction.

So at the very least your prayer is an insult and most unwelcome. And somewhere in there, if I understand anything of Christianity, I believe you have committed a few sins.

You have established yourself as a self appointed preacher, but in a debating forum. The pretentious and unsupported assertions and style of your sermons have led you into the misguided notion that you are free to preach without the responsibility of justifying your position. In a church, sermons and prayers go hand in hand, and are inflicted on willing victims, but here you run the risk of attracting the wrath of unwilling victims who will not stay silent while you rant your fantasies.

Cris

To the other, do you actually have anything to say? I mean, really. Beyond the puerile?

Come on ... with all those wonderful words of sermon, surely you've put some thought into what you preach?

It's time to stand up and think for yourself, ISDAMan. That's all.

It's preferable to your black magicks.

--Tiassa :cool:

Tiassa,

An observation regarding the Christian doctrine of turning the other cheek: This I suspect will be the primary tactic adopted by ISDAMan when he is subjected to overwhelming attack, in the Christian context of course. Where violence is involved then we could see the action as probably very foolish, but certainly courageous. And if the attacks were just unintelligible abuse then simply ignoring the attackers would be admirable, but what would be the expected action if the attacks were intellectual or arguments of reason?

Should not an all-powerful god be able to provide its followers with powerful arguments to combat the human onslaught of reason? And if not, why not? If not then would that not indicate a massive oversight and inability of an alleged superior being to provide convincing answers to us as presumably inferior beings? An argument that we aren’t capable of understanding could not be convincing since an all powerful being must be able to define the arguments in terms that even the most simple minded could comprehend.

So what is the intellectual equivalent to turning the other cheek? Is it simply to remain silent, secure in the belief that the god will condemn, forgive, or torture the attacker at the appropriate time? But there is no equivalent courage involved in that approach. It seems to really represent that there is no adequate answer – silence would be seen as a cop out – a sell out. Or perhaps more appropriately the cowardly way out.

Your insights please sir, as I suspect you will have an opinion.

Cris

Should not an all-powerful god be able to provide its followers with powerful arguments to combat the human onslaught of reason? Cris--

I think the easiest logical escape is to simply say that God's ineffable message is self-evident, and thus one might justify demanding that everyone read the same words in the same context and extract the same interpretation.

On the other hand, I'm recalling an old piece of wisdom: 'Tis better to be silent and thought a fool ....

Though it's technically too late for silence, I suppose there's no reason to pour water on a sinking ship, or to beat a dead Lazarus.

'Tis late, though; at least, this hour has recently become so for me. I must give deeper thoughts later, but these few scratchings are the first to mind.But if you are feeling sinister
go off and see your minister.
He'll try in vain to take away the pain
of being a hopeless unbeliever

But if you are feeling sinister
go off and see your minister.
The chances are you'll probably feel better
if you stayed and played with yourself.

(Belle & Sebastian, If You're Feeling Sinister)Just a silly iTunes coincidence.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

Further consideration keeps hammering home points of ideas being self-evident, of God's message to mankind in being clear and simple and universally accessible, and also of the idea that one should not be questioning God.

Of the first, we hear Christians frequently declare the equivalence of the self-evidence of God. For instance, religion and schools. It seems to me that Christians demand their rights, and feel that other religions are achieving greater rights. Yet, simultaneously, that right includes the power of dominion, for true realization of Christian religious practice carries with it the supreme triumph of God over the infidels. Why is it that we can only respect Christianity by hurting other people? Because God is allegedly self-evident. It is, to those theistic parrots, so self-evident that nothing needs to be said. This pure arrogance might account for some of ISDA's ... well, not exactly silence. But it's definitely a reticence that hinders his ability to communicate his ideas.

Herein I would like to introduce an extraneous but relevant concept: Communication is the responsibility of the broadcaster. That is, when one wishes to communicate ideas to another, it is the responsibility of the one attempting to communicate to ensure that the ideas are conveyed and perceived correctly. This bears with it a host of problems, but how many times lately have I called certain of our fellow posters lazy in their conceptual apprach? The trick, then, is to communicate in a form recognized by the recipient. Why isn't Daddy here on my birthday? Because Daddy has to work; now, you can explain to little Johnny all you want about Greenspan's fiscal policy, the Communist Manifesto, Smith's capitalism, and the obligation of a citizen to maximize profitability for the benefit of their neighbors, but that's going to fly over 5 year-old Johnny's head, unless he's a prodigy.

Of universal accessibility, there is little to say. However, I would point out first that this communication is on God's shoulders. Yeah I've been to Hawaii; it's cool. Okay ... now, what did that person just tell me? Well, it depends on whether I'm a literalist or a modernist. What of God? How universally accessible was the Bible that it should require translation? (We can leave the quality of that translation for another day.) However, Christians generally don't care about this issue; they've accepted this book as true to the letter regardless of whether they know what it says or not. In this sense, we see a replay of that reticence of communication: if the Bible and God's inherent message are universally acessible, then God is self-evident, which leads us back a couple of paragraphs.

Which leads us to the difficulties of communication itself. The nearest I can explain the phenomenon I observe is this: I cannot explain to you what is self evident because I will not endorse your religion. In other words, modern Christians are afraid to step into the other arena, and demonstrate themselves in terms relative to their target conversions because it might create the appearance of having honored another God. In this sense, I think the Christian usurpation of pagan holidays as occasions to honor the Christian deity makes this modern superstition laughable. How many Christians realize--and then comes the question of how many actually care--that Easter and Christmas are both pagan fertility rites? The simple fact is that the Christians cannot generally sympathize with the pagan target well enough to speak a common dialect that will be effective. The reason for this failure of method is that Christians fear making even a rhetorical concession to a pagan God, for fear of endangering their own salvation.

In other words, it's pure, undereducated greed. No matter how ISDA chooses to paint it, he cannot possibly augment his credibility as a preacher without demonstrating some sense of a thought process. Human empathy would be nice. Human sympathy would give us a sense of hope that Christians can, in fact, integrate well into the society they hate so much and persecute so readily.

But of this reticence on ISDAMan's part, what can I say, except, Yeah, that's what I thought.So a quick rundown, just for the heck of it:Should not an all-powerful god be able to provide its followers with powerful arguments to combat the human onslaught of reason? And if not, why not? If not then would that not indicate a massive oversight and inability of an alleged superior being to provide convincing answers to us as presumably inferior beings? An argument that we aren’t capable of understanding could not be convincing since an all powerful being must be able to define the arguments in terms that even the most simple minded could comprehend.* Yes.

* False advertising? I invite you to draw your own conclusion, for the possibilities are as myriad as the individuals who fail to convey their faith in any coherent manner.

* Yes, or else deliberate will. But that would make God a liar, and we can't have that. :rolleyes:

* Amen.

But that brief overview was for my amusement. When I still aspired to the faith, I thought it was about learning about God's mysteries. It is not, and that is the faith's greatest tragedy--its comfort among superstition, fear, and the darkest of emotions.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

I sincerely hope this little quick note does not take away from what you wrote, tiassa, but ...

<blockquote>
<font size="1">quote:</font>
<hr>
<i>Originally posted by tiassa:</i>
But that brief overview was for my amusement. When I still aspired to the faith, I thought it was about learning about God's mysteries. It is not, and that is the faith's greatest tragedy--its comfort among superstition, fear, and the darkest of emotions.
<hr>
</blockquote>

I agree wholeheartedly with this point. When I was still involved in the faith as well, I sought constantly to understand all the things and actions and doings of God. When I taught others, I always taught them to ask questions first and then to proceed after that. One of my friends (the one that's basically given up on me since my stance on religion) once said to me, "I can't understand why you choose to live the way you do now. You were one of the best teachers. You taught everyone for years; and you taught doctrine."

In their opinion, I thought too much. When God kept repeatedly coming up short, I had to wonder. Fortunately, I did. So, I agree with you, tiassa. The Christian's duty is to <b>not</b> question God's actions or draw their own conclusions about their religion.

ISDAman thinks we (nonbelievers) are infidels, though most of us has been quite actively engaged in religious matters at one time in our life. I tend to think that most of us was in it for the good reasons, and that's why we decided to leave, because we saw where it was going and what we'd lose of ourselves if we continued on that path.

Well, thanks for provoking that thought!

prag

Glad to see you use the term 'non-believers' , prag. Being one of those creatures and often having people equate non-belief to atheism has irritated me, particularly since I don't equate non-belief with agnosticism either.

I was about seven when I began to question and by fourteen had decided that no one had an answer I could accept and accepted what I felt was a rational non-believer's position: I don't know and don't feel that anyone else knows, at least for now.

My 'now', fifty years later, has me still feeling the same way.

Originally posted by ISDAMan!
Cris & tiassa,

It's good that you have read the truth. It is my prayer that one day, because of God changing your hearts, you will understand and also have the assurance of eternal life that Christ gives freely. The best that I can do is to pray for you.

Dear Father,

These two and many others are so very hostile against You. They look to everything under the sun to give them reason except You and still cannot tare themselves away from the the fact that You exist and are powerful and are THE Power of the universe. Because You are a patient God, continue to be kind to them. Please, give them peace from the demonic influences that would have them to want to believe a lie. They know You are here. That is why they rail against You so even though they claim You do not exist. Their very words show their turmoil and their inner oppression. I ask you Lord, my God who has power over all evil and all sin, call out to these to take them away from sin and do not give up on them.

By Christ who leads me I pray.
I Thank You Lord!

In closing, I leave you with this. To belittle is to be-little. Think on this. I will continue to pray for you.

God Bless You Friends,
ISDAMan

AMEN !! ISDAMan! Don't let hem get to you, there just like you say, in great need! Pray for them, and always pray! Pray for me, and just please say a word or two to me, I am a Christian and want to talk to you and to fellow ship with you! I am always very glad to be corrected in any of my post concerning God's Holy Word.! Please respond and say 'hello' and I will always be responsible for what I post. Amen: Carry on in good faith! For the Glory of God the Father in Heaven !:)

"For Greater is He that is in you, then he that is in the world!"

Cris, Tiassa & Pragmathen,

I arrived a bit late on this one, so you all have pretty well covered what I would have said had I been here. I'd just like to add one more thing, which ISDAMan and Loone might be able to relate to (apparently all of your eloquently stated points went right over their heads):

<font color="red">Matthew 6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

Matthew 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.</font>


Emerald

Not only for the reference, but for the lesson.

Here we see a reversal of the very process I accuse. For I had assumed that such passages as you had cited were self-evident to the Christians, who believe in and study their Bibles.

Well, believe in, sure. If they studied the damn thing, they wouldn't have to be told, would they? ;)

thanx much,
Tiassa :cool:

Tiassa,

Originally posted by tiassa
Not only for the reference, but for the lesson.

No problem. :)

Here we see a reversal of the very process I accuse. For I had assumed that such passages as you had cited were self-evident to the Christians, who believe in and study their Bibles.

You got it - explain it to 'em like they're 5 years old!

Well, believe in, sure. If they studied the damn thing, they wouldn't have to be told, would they? ;)

The prerequisite for becoming a Christian is to believe unquestioningly. Actually taking the time to find out exactly what it is you believe is of secondary importance. This has been demonstrated to me time and time again, particularly in the case of fundamentalist Christians. When one steps inside a Christian church, the first thing one must do is to check one's brain at the door. It's much easier that way. Frontal lobotomy, anyone?

Emerald

Emerald,

Thanks for your scholarly biblical knowledge, you’ve made the point that I had been striving to reach, but in a way that our religious friends will have to acknowledge. And I had forgotten the obvious hypocrisy; the errors I had covered seemed adequate regardless.

But I suspect that ISDA will have little trouble understanding these issues. I recognize in him a powerful intellect. Loone, I believe may be beyond our help and has not demonstrated any aptitude for independent reasoned thought, at least not in any of his posts that I have read.

Loone’s decision to neglect his ability to think makes him appear as a mindless moron, and I am not using the term in a derogatory sense. The term ‘moron’ here indicates someone with lower than average intelligence. This means either that that someone is either deficient in that area or has consciously chosen not to exercise their abilities to think. To think clearly, logically and with reason takes practice and considerable effort. And I consider myself very much a beginner still. To take an easier course and to have someone else make the decisions is a great temptation for many but must be ultimately dissatisfying and personally destructive. The brain/mind like every other organ in the human body, when not exercised results in decay, deterioration, and eventually early death. Studies into anti-aging show this very clearly.

So my point is that Christians have taken the laziness route, the more comfortable route, where they do not have to think for themselves. Consequently we see in Loone, especially and to large extent in ISDA those lazy thoughts that come far short of being able to reason and see clearly. The result is a mindless acceptance of dogmatic and automaton-like actions resulting in meaningless fantasies.

But whereas Loone has simply given in to this laziness I suspect that ISDA is capable of re-energizing that part of his brain that will return his ability for critical and reasoned thought. Unfortunately it will take time and we cannot expect early realization of his errors. Most thoughtful people do learn from their mistakes, eventually, and I would like to think that ISDA may indeed one day achieve that overview and perspective of reality that will provide him that final realization of truth.

So am I being arrogant and condescending towards our friends in the same way as I accused ISDA in his attitude towards me? No because he assumed he already knew the ultimate truth and that I did not. My approach is that I do not know the answers, and in fact no one can know for sure. My advice to ISDA is to take the rational approach to reality and to not jump to easy conclusions that cannot be verified, justified, or indeed have any confidence of being true. My advice is not one of telling but to merely suggest a more precise and proven process for finding truth.

My strong suspicions are that there is no glorious end in store for humans, and that death is very unpleasant and final. It takes courage to face what is probably obvious and most likely very unpleasant.

Cris

Emerald,

Ha - I posted my last message before reading yours. I think we are in agreement - frontal lobotomy at the church door. I was simply trying to be polite and tactful though.

Cris

You wrote:

"I am always very glad to be corrected in any of my post concerning God's Holy Word.! "

What about when that correction is made by someone who knows and understands that word better then yourself but happens to be an "unbeliever"?? you seem to ignore all of those corrections...It would have been more true to say that you are only willing to accept opinions which are the same as your own, i.e. christain.

Further you also said:

"Please respond and say 'hello' and I will always be responsible for what I post"

LOL, you mean by re-iterating a post that has already angered people on the forum???

At least your consistent with your christain beliefs, at best you are nothing but an ignorant sheep at worst you are a hypocrite. I would hope you are just plain stupid, and for your sake I hope this whole christain thing is in fact an outdated political tool because if there is a judgemental god up there your "christain lifestyle" would surely have to be punished.

To everyone else on the forum I appolagise for the tone, but I'm so sick of these obvious "digs" at people being painted up as some kind of gracious act!!!!

This is in agreeance with what Cris wrote:

<blockquote>
<font size="1">quote:</font>
<hr>
<i>Originally posted by Cris:</i>
So my point is that Christians have taken the laziness route, the more comfortable route, where they do not have to think for themselves.
<hr>
</blockquote>

Prior to my 'awakening', I was seriously dating this one gal for going on a year (then again, maybe for some, that's not too serious). At any rate, we were both very close and she understood about a third of the way into our dating period that I was beginning to have serious doubts as to the religion we were a part of. Towards the end, it was very apparent to her that I would not continue participating in the religion.

One poignant time comes to mind. We were driving up a canyon road and I told her what I felt about religion and God, not really holding much back. She became (much to my surprise, despite having dated her for that long) exceptionally emotional and demanded that I take her back home. As clear as I can recall, I was not being derogatory or defaming towards her belief of God or Christ. I was, instead, explaining what I thought of the two--i.e., no longer sure whether they existed, let alone cared about the human race. That was basically it, but she nearly plugged her ears and wanted me to stop talking and drive her back home. As I promptly started driving back home, I kept repeating to her, "It's okay. It shouldn't matter what I think. What you think is still safe. This is about me only." It didn't matter. She couldn't understand how anyone could put down or ignore Christ or God--it didn't make sense to her.

Mainly because of that experience with her, I decided not to tell others specifically why I had chosen the way I think now. I figured that if they really wanted to know (as I did), they would look on their own and try to find out. Naturally, we broke things off and went our separate ways--but I couldn't live with the idea of sacrificing a goodly portion of my mind for her sake. Just didn't make sense to me. She had also said to me one day, "I just want to grow up and follow what my leaders say. I wish I didn't have to make decisions. I'd rather just sit back and follow." Seriously. No embellishment.

One more example and then I'm done. That same close friend of mine that's ditched me since was getting married about three or so years ago. During that time I was becoming increasingly apathetic to religion though I did not let anyone know that. Anyway, his wife (and I know I'm giving away what my former religious belief system was by saying this, but what can you do?) had a serious problem with the subject of polygamy as practiced in her church in the past. She frequently said that she could not get married in case her husband (my friend) had to someday agree to practice polygamy. Somehow she 'resolved' this concern. When I asked my friend, rather inconspicuously, how she resolved it, he said, "Oh, I just told her that I wouldn't do that. That God's not going to be asking people to do that." I just nodded and pretended like he was right. Actually, he was not (even according to his religion's teachings).

What did this friend's wife teach me about Cris' statement? That Christians really prefer to put things on the back burner as far as doubts and concerns and let God answer them in His own due time. And if that due time happens to be after death, so much the better. As long as they don't have to clutter their mind with such irrelevance, they're happy to remain ignorant of whatever facts are there.

thanks again,

prag

Originally posted by pragmathen
I sincerely hope this little quick note does not take away from what you wrote, tiassa, but ...

<blockquote>
<font size="1">quote:</font>
<hr>
<i>Originally posted by tiassa:</i>
But that brief overview was for my amusement. When I still aspired to the faith, I thought it was about learning about God's mysteries. It is not, and that is the faith's greatest tragedy--its comfort among superstition, fear, and the darkest of emotions.
<hr>
</blockquote>

I agree wholeheartedly with this point. When I was still involved in the faith as well, I sought constantly to understand all the things and actions and doings of God. When I taught others, I always taught them to ask questions first and then to proceed after that. One of my friends (the one that's basically given up on me since my stance on religion) once said to me, "I can't understand why you choose to live the way you do now. You were one of the best teachers. You taught everyone for years; and you taught doctrine."

In their opinion, I thought too much. When God kept repeatedly coming up short, I had to wonder. Fortunately, I did. So, I agree with you, tiassa. The Christian's duty is to <b>not</b> question God's actions or draw their own conclusions about their religion.

ISDAman thinks we (nonbelievers) are infidels, though most of us has been quite actively engaged in religious matters at one time in our life. I tend to think that most of us was in it for the good reasons, and that's why we decided to leave, because we saw where it was going and what we'd lose of ourselves if we continued on that path.

Well, thanks for provoking that thought!

prag

Pragmathen & Tiassa: Our Lord and saviour Jesus is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. No matter how far you and others have gone from the faith, as long as you have life in your blood on the Earth and the breath of life in you, you can be set free, saved by grace unto the Father God through Jesus the Son of God. You can ponder the mysteries of GOD, the Faith better filled with His Holy Spirit of GOD.:) You all definitely not really understand the scriptures and GOD, being in rebellion as unbelievers, scorners of the Word of God, Pharisees! THe human intellect alone is not enough, and can never really fathom the the ETERNAL and the supernatural aspects of GOD and His Words are far beyond that! You are deceiving your selves if you think your know what your doing here, and I say it's sounds quite cultish to me.
The only way, is what the Word of GOD (the Bible) really says is the way, and that is to surrender your pride and arrogance, and humble your selves unto Jesus, and His Word! Any other way is an horrible deception that will ultimately destroy you in the end.
"For sin when it is finished, bringeth forth DEATH! "

You can never have an true understanding of Faith out side of Christ! Your probably under powerful demonic deception, and "so much knowledge, puffeth up." To be totally blind to the truth, that many will create there own realities!

I realise that your comments were ment for Tiassa and Prag...but this is a public forum so sue me.

What is your interpretation of the word TRUTH??? everyone seems to understand that for it to be considered true it MUST be verified. Your holy book makes ALOT of claims and NON absolutley NON have actually been verified by an unbias source. Further there have been coutless discussions on this forum alone that point out the contradictions of your faith (which I might add get ignored by the "believers"). So you can keep deluding yourself with the myths and beliefs of an ignorant ancient society and keep telling yourself its the truth, but be aware that the only people with cultist inclinations here are the die hard christains like yourself who are either unable or unwilling to grasp the totality of the bible....

So what is that makes you so faithfull, is it the comfort you get from avoiding taking resposibilty for your actions or is the fear that your religion inspires in its subjects?

Cris,

Originally posted by Cris
Ha - I posted my last message before reading yours. I think we are in agreement - frontal lobotomy at the church door.

This may have been inspired in part by the Newcastle I've been enjoying this evening, but as a friend of mine used to say, I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy. ;)

I was simply trying to be polite and tactful though.

I admire your efforts at diplomacy, but I felt the time had come for me to be blunt. I guess you might say that ISDAMan and Loone have begun to get under my skin a bit more lately with their "holier-than-thou" routine. I haven't had as much time for responding lately, so I guess I've been making it short and not-so-sweet in recent weeks. Sorry about that, Cris.

Emerald

You are deceiving your selves if you think your know what your doing here, and I say it's sounds quite cultish to me. For the record, Loone, establish for me this: When the hell did I ever say I knew what I was doing in this Universe?

That the answers I have chosen make more sense to me is exactly why I have chosen those answers. Unlike the fixed faith of Christianity, the Universe is a constant adventure of discovery to me. Perspectives pass to shadow and emerge anew. Change, Loone, is a natural part of the Universe. How that change affects a person is a natural part of that person's Universe. One's Universe must be flexible and not fixed, else it burst asunder or stop learning.

As to the rest of that gibberish, Loone, it appears that you are incapable of understanding the basic nature of integrity: It's a nice promise, I admit. But it has no foundation, no demonstrable device, and no harmony of application; this promise you call faith has no integrity.Your probably under powerful demonic deception, and "so much knowledge, puffeth up." I mean, take this for example. Loone, would I call my urologist to repair my toilet? Why, for the love of humanity, would I take diabological advice from a man devoid of relevant knowledge? Perhaps if you could demonstrate some knowledge base and not pure superstition and supercilious assumption, you might carry some credibility. In the meantime, it's just more of the same desperation.The only way, is what the Word of GOD (the Bible) really says is the way, and that is to surrender your pride and arrogance, and humble your selves unto Jesus, and His Word!I enjoy discovering God's Universe so damn much, why would I want to stop? A sacrifice of the intellect nullifies itself: it removes one's understanding of the sacrifice. Kind of a heresy unto the self, as such.

Waerloga.

--Tiassa :cool:

Ah heck Emerald I hadn’t wanted you to apologize, my comment concerning politeness wasn’t a rebuke of you. I guess I should have added a smiley to that post.

I think the frustration we both share is that the Christians do not speak our language. As I’ve said and highlighted before ‘reason’ and ‘faith’ are opposites, and cannot overlap. But it is worse in a debate where reason has to be a primary component. The Christians do not debate; they simply make assertions. And they see little need to provide justifications since that isn’t a requirement in a faith-based protocol.

The more we include reason the more they will simply shout their assertions louder. Notice how Loone sometimes entirely capitalizes GOD. He has no concept of being able to use a convincing argument and hopes that if he repeats and shouts the same failed assertions often enough then we might start to believe him. But to formulate a convincing argument one must be able to construct logical components, at which time ‘faith’ has to be dismissed and Loone would become one of us.

Cris